Slog
News & ArtsMonday, May 31, 2010
Politics Census Vs. Island Rules
Posted by Grant Brissey on Mon, May 31, 2010 at 12:49 PM
According to Westhawaiitoday.com, Richard Haas, a 57-year-old census worker, was arrested March 10 for second-degree trespassing. Haas was trying to serve a census form to an alleged off-duty police officer. The county deputy prosecutor says he's looking to "have it kept in state court," but the U.S. Attorney's office filed papers last Thursday take the case out of that court, which would pit the federal government against local prosecutors.
Haas pleaded not guilty on April 8 to second-degree trespassing. He was arrested March 10 at 12:30 p.m. in in Hawaiian Acres, after a resident Haas says was an off-duty police officer allegedly refused to cooperate with the Census and called Puna police."When I opened his gate and walked in ... he stepped out of his garage and said, 'Please get off my property,'" Haas said Friday. Haas said he identified himself as a Census worker, and the man again requested for him to leave.
"I said, 'Can I please just give you the Census (form)?' And he didn't want it," Haas said. "He said he was going to call the cops, so I said, 'OK, fine.' We'd been trained to wait by the gate for the cops to get there and hand them the forms that we would have handed to the guy. The police then hand it to them and tell them, 'It's the law, do it.' Then everybody would walk away and it would be fine. That was what I expected.
"But when I was standing next to the gate talking to the guy, he pulls something out ...and out pops this little tin shield, and it falls and clatters on his driveway. And I realized he was telling me he was a cop."
"Then I went, 'Dude, if you're a cop, you know that you have to be in the Census. You have to be because you've sworn an oath to uphold and obey (the law).'"
Haas, who is a former New Jersey police officer, said while he and the man were talking across the gate, police "pulled up behind me, suddenly."
"I handed them the Census and expected them to hand them to this guy and say, 'That's it,'" Haas said. "They walked over and talked to him for a minute or two, then walked back to me ... and then stuffed it into my chest, and said, 'He doesn't have to enter your Census. He doesn't have to enter any Census. He doesn't have to fill out any of your forms or answer any of your questions. And if I were you, I'd get into my car and get the hell outta here, right now.'
h/t: Brendan!
1
So much for 'protecting the constitution'.
I don't understand the census backlash: it's right there in the founding document and is needed for determining the number of reps for a given area and such. Why on earth would someone be against being represented?
I don't understand the census backlash: it's right there in the founding document and is needed for determining the number of reps for a given area and such. Why on earth would someone be against being represented?
2
Oh, you're laboring under the mistaken assumption that this is about the law or something?
No, this about how LEOs don't have to respect anyone but other cops. Ever.
No, this about how LEOs don't have to respect anyone but other cops. Ever.
3
I think there's a cop in Hawaii who is going to lose his job soon. Too bad. It's got to be one of the stupidest things to stake your career on.
6
... the right wing is VERY paranoid ... about everything.
Bet he is fearing the UN Invasion, Obama Healthcare, Gays in General, and ..... a long list.
Rational, no.
Bet he is fearing the UN Invasion, Obama Healthcare, Gays in General, and ..... a long list.
Rational, no.
7
@2 Yup. I'm surprised they didn't assault him on the scene right there. Conservatives, only favoring the constitution that exists in their own masturbatory fantasies.
9
Slog commenters have this one wrong. There is a native movement in Hawaii. If anything, the fact that the Census is in the US Constitution would be a reason NOT to fill it out.
Nobody is going to lose their job over this, and they're probably not even right-wingers or paranoid. They are saying "fuck you whitey", simple as that.
Nobody is going to lose their job over this, and they're probably not even right-wingers or paranoid. They are saying "fuck you whitey", simple as that.
11
Hawaii, and the Big Island outback in particular, is full of such tin-foil hat psychotics. Hawaii is a banana republic, anyway. Tim Eyman would have a field day there. I mean a whole day, before the government/commercial mafia there exploited his newly-found accident-prone nature.
12
@9 While that may be the case, it doesn't make it a good idea. If they hate the way the US government is treating them, filling out the census to prevent from being underrepresented would be a smart way to make the changes they think they need, unless their goal is simple revolt and secession, which is a terrible idea for them economically and in terms of the defense and well-being of their people. They may hate the perceived white threat or hold historical grudges, but the census is simple a bad place to fight that fight.
13
It's only a matter of time before these anti-government types are screaming because the government isn't helping THEM out of a jam. Bobby Jindahl is a fine example. Just last year he was waxing poetic about "there isn't anything" the American people can't do if the government would only just move aside. Now he's screaming for HELP!!! Fucking asshole TeaBaggers!
15
@10 - Not exactly, but this post has an apt headline. Hawaiian cops are pretty corrupt, and the judge is probably the sheriff's cousin and the prosecutor's brother-in-law. You get the picture.
@12 - "unless their goal is simple revolt and secession" -- that is precisely the goal. I didn't say it was a good idea, but that is the goal. It begins to make more sense when you put it in the context of reservations here on the mainland. Except the State of Hawaii, with the exception of Honolulu, is all reservation.
@12 - "unless their goal is simple revolt and secession" -- that is precisely the goal. I didn't say it was a good idea, but that is the goal. It begins to make more sense when you put it in the context of reservations here on the mainland. Except the State of Hawaii, with the exception of Honolulu, is all reservation.
16
The commenters claiming that the constitution requires you to fill out the census form are deluded. The consitution requires the government to carry out an enumeration. It does not require citizens to do anything, nor does it empower the government to step on citizens' rights in order to carry out its enumeration.
There is a federal law (not a constituional clause) requiring you to fill out the form. The fine for not doing so is $100. The law does not suspend trespass laws for census bureau workers. So if you want to pay the $100 and order the census bureau worker off your lawn, you are within your rights. Of course, to get their $100, the feds would presumably have to serve you, and process servers are not allowed to treaspass any more than census bureau workers. The census has apparently not attempted to enforce the fine for decades.
The legal question here probably comes down to which side of the gate the worker was standing on.
There is a federal law (not a constituional clause) requiring you to fill out the form. The fine for not doing so is $100. The law does not suspend trespass laws for census bureau workers. So if you want to pay the $100 and order the census bureau worker off your lawn, you are within your rights. Of course, to get their $100, the feds would presumably have to serve you, and process servers are not allowed to treaspass any more than census bureau workers. The census has apparently not attempted to enforce the fine for decades.
The legal question here probably comes down to which side of the gate the worker was standing on.
17
"The law does not suspend trespass laws for census bureau workers."
Legitimate business is not trespassing, so it does change the definition, depending on the behavior of the worker.
Legitimate business is not trespassing, so it does change the definition, depending on the behavior of the worker.
18
9 - sure there is a native movement in Hawaii. But ten bucks that the cop and his buddies are haoles.
19
You think that is funny, you should ask your Somali or Ethiopian neighbors in the CD how they like being lumped in with "African-Americans" on the US census.
22
@16
Most of what you're saying is technically correct, but any court in Hawaii could render that moot by reading a privilege into the federal statute. It apparently hasn't come up yet because Hawaii's a relatively small state and they've only had to do the census five times, but creating that privilege would certainly be within the competence of a state or federal court judge, and there are abundant policy reasons to do so.
By the same token, the main reason the rest of your argument is even technically correct is that douchebags like this New Jersey cop are such outliers that it doesn't pay to respond to their behavior with legislation. It's like those idiots who put tape over the part of their New Hampshire license plates that say, "Live free or die!" There's a whole constitutional debate behind that, and it deals with a lot of very heavy issues, but at base it's just such a pointless exercise that the law handles those people on an ad hoc basis.
Most of what you're saying is technically correct, but any court in Hawaii could render that moot by reading a privilege into the federal statute. It apparently hasn't come up yet because Hawaii's a relatively small state and they've only had to do the census five times, but creating that privilege would certainly be within the competence of a state or federal court judge, and there are abundant policy reasons to do so.
By the same token, the main reason the rest of your argument is even technically correct is that douchebags like this New Jersey cop are such outliers that it doesn't pay to respond to their behavior with legislation. It's like those idiots who put tape over the part of their New Hampshire license plates that say, "Live free or die!" There's a whole constitutional debate behind that, and it deals with a lot of very heavy issues, but at base it's just such a pointless exercise that the law handles those people on an ad hoc basis.
24
Regardless of the census, regardless of the coppery, people get way too uptight about property. Maybe if I owned some I would understand :-\
25
"It's only "funny" to an insincere troll such as yourself."
Really? Talk to some Somalis or Ethiopians in Seattle, fresh of the boat ( you know, 'FOBs')....see how like they like being lumped in with baby mamas and gangbangers as 'African-Americans' or 'black'. They hate it.
Really? Talk to some Somalis or Ethiopians in Seattle, fresh of the boat ( you know, 'FOBs')....see how like they like being lumped in with baby mamas and gangbangers as 'African-Americans' or 'black'. They hate it.
26
@18,23 - In Honolulu, maybe. But this is the Big Island. I've never even seen a non-native cop there.
27
@25 "see how like they like being lumped in with baby mamas and gangbanger"
I'm sure they love being lectured on their backgrounds by racist trash such as yourself.
I'm sure they love being lectured on their backgrounds by racist trash such as yourself.
28
Hawaiian Acres? Is that like Green Acres only in a tropical setting.
This census worker was the Hank Kimball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZtL7sSZq…
This census worker was the Hank Kimball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZtL7sSZq…
29
@25: I'm Jewish. I check "white/Caucasian" on forms, though, because they don't usually put "Jewish" as an option. I suck it up, and I don't really see how anyone could get too worked up over such a small issue like that. Shall I call the WAAAAAAHHHHmbulance for you and your whiny Ethiopian/Somalian friends?
31
Judah, Venomlash will probably do a better job answering, but people I've known who were Jewish always described themselves that way, meaning that being Jewish was both their religion and their ethnic heritage, whereas non-Jewish friends would say, "I'm Irish, or English, or Swedish, etc," using a country to describe their heritage. Maybe due to all the historical persecution, and the fact that Jews were frequently on the run and not able to maintain a presence in any one country for as long as, say, the Caucasian English.
This helps:
"By the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[35], suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago."
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TMR025PT…
This helps:
"By the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[35], suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago."
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TMR025PT…
32
@30: Due to the insular nature of Jewish communities in Europe back in the day (as a result of both antisemitism and a tight-knit, isolationist culture), people from Jewish families are ethnically and genetically distinct from their Christian neighbors due to a paucity of intermarriage, for the most part. There is some truth to the physical stereotypes of Jews (curly hair, Roman nose, olive complexion) for that reason.
33
"I'm sure they love being lectured on their backgrounds by racist trash such as yourself."
Are you kidding? I got an earful from an old Somali neighbor when I was holed up in the CD a few years back; they said things about african americans in the CD that made me blush.
You need to get out more.
Are you kidding? I got an earful from an old Somali neighbor when I was holed up in the CD a few years back; they said things about african americans in the CD that made me blush.
You need to get out more.
34
"I'm Jewish. I check "white/Caucasian" on forms"
Well some people consider that a step up....plus it may make your dick bigger.
Well some people consider that a step up....plus it may make your dick bigger.
35
"There is some truth to the physical stereotypes of Jews (curly hair, Roman nose, olive complexion)"
You left out small dicks...which reminds me of a great joke:
"Why are Japs (Jewish American Princesses for you goys out there) so bad at math?
When they grow up all the men tell them the distance from their thumbs to their index finger is 12 inches"
You left out small dicks...which reminds me of a great joke:
"Why are Japs (Jewish American Princesses for you goys out there) so bad at math?
When they grow up all the men tell them the distance from their thumbs to their index finger is 12 inches"
36
@32
...okay. But people from different parts of Europe are ethnically and genetically distinct as well. I mean, you can tell a Brit from a French person from a Norwegian from a Slav. Sicilians are ethnically distinct from Northern Italians. The people of southern Spain likewise. And then there are the Fins and the Basques, with their language isolates, and the Hungarians, who also speak a non-Indo-European language and were, historically at least, ethnically distinct from other Europeans. And whatever has been going on for the last 3000 years, Jews intermarry like crazy these days.
...okay. But people from different parts of Europe are ethnically and genetically distinct as well. I mean, you can tell a Brit from a French person from a Norwegian from a Slav. Sicilians are ethnically distinct from Northern Italians. The people of southern Spain likewise. And then there are the Fins and the Basques, with their language isolates, and the Hungarians, who also speak a non-Indo-European language and were, historically at least, ethnically distinct from other Europeans. And whatever has been going on for the last 3000 years, Jews intermarry like crazy these days.
37
Sorry, but all of you people commenting on the legality of this are full of shit. In short: 1) The census is legal and you have to answer the questions, 2) Census workers are allowed to come to your door, even if there is a gate, 3) The fact that the state cops don't like it doesn't mean shit.
OK, the longer version:
1) Yes, you have to answer all the questions. This has been litigated before, and courts have pretty much laughed complainers out of the room. See US v. Rickenbacker for the full gory detail. This case is 50 years old people!
But, I hear you say, "That doesn't make sense!" Bullshit. The constitution says "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct." (Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3). That last bit is the kicker -- Congress has the power to say what the census can ask. They have, you have to, get over it.
2) Yes, census workers have a right to come to your door. See the law here, section 223. That does not mean they have a right to go into your apartment -- it just means they have a right to go past your gate or the security guard at your gated community. Sorry if you don't like it, it's the law.
3) Census workers are federals, and federal law trumps state law. That's know as the "supremacy clause" (Article 6, Clause 2), and it means that when the feds pass a law, no state law can interfere. Ah -- gotta love the civil rights act, right? Well, that's the supremacy clause in action. Governor Faubus couldn't use state law to stop the integration of Little Rock Central High School, and these shitheads can't stop the census either.
Need another example? How about the time when a body guard shot a man while defending a US supreme court justice? Is the bodyguard liable for murder in a state court? Nope, since he was carrying out federal law, the states can't touch him. A little closer to home, ever looked for a license plate on an Army truck on the highway? You won't find one, since that Army truck is federal, and the states can't stop it doing what it needs to do to carry out federal law.
So, this case is clear. The homeowner is an ignorant ass, the cops are stupid shitheads, and the census worker is in the clear. The only thing I don't know is whether the cops will be fired (I hope!) and whether the census worker will get a big lawsuit (I hope!).
Oh, and anybody who disagrees with me, please back it up with case law, not just "I think . . . . "
More...
OK, the longer version:
1) Yes, you have to answer all the questions. This has been litigated before, and courts have pretty much laughed complainers out of the room. See US v. Rickenbacker for the full gory detail. This case is 50 years old people!
But, I hear you say, "That doesn't make sense!" Bullshit. The constitution says "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct." (Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3). That last bit is the kicker -- Congress has the power to say what the census can ask. They have, you have to, get over it.
2) Yes, census workers have a right to come to your door. See the law here, section 223. That does not mean they have a right to go into your apartment -- it just means they have a right to go past your gate or the security guard at your gated community. Sorry if you don't like it, it's the law.
3) Census workers are federals, and federal law trumps state law. That's know as the "supremacy clause" (Article 6, Clause 2), and it means that when the feds pass a law, no state law can interfere. Ah -- gotta love the civil rights act, right? Well, that's the supremacy clause in action. Governor Faubus couldn't use state law to stop the integration of Little Rock Central High School, and these shitheads can't stop the census either.
Need another example? How about the time when a body guard shot a man while defending a US supreme court justice? Is the bodyguard liable for murder in a state court? Nope, since he was carrying out federal law, the states can't touch him. A little closer to home, ever looked for a license plate on an Army truck on the highway? You won't find one, since that Army truck is federal, and the states can't stop it doing what it needs to do to carry out federal law.
So, this case is clear. The homeowner is an ignorant ass, the cops are stupid shitheads, and the census worker is in the clear. The only thing I don't know is whether the cops will be fired (I hope!) and whether the census worker will get a big lawsuit (I hope!).
Oh, and anybody who disagrees with me, please back it up with case law, not just "I think . . . . "
38
@34-35: Oh, I just love this. A guy who's posting under "Asian1981" ("ASIAN1981") is saying that Jewish people have little dicks. The irony! It's a shonde! Especially since I've never heard of that stereotype. (No, cutting a bit off doesn't actually make it shorter.)
And I'm many things, but white isn't one of them. I'm a full-blooded MOT, and if you want to pester me about it, you can kiss my shiny metal ass.
And I'm many things, but white isn't one of them. I'm a full-blooded MOT, and if you want to pester me about it, you can kiss my shiny metal ass.
41
@40: I'd define "white" as someone of generally European heritage who is not a member of some extremely distinct minority (such as the Jews or possibly the Roma).
42
@41
Huh. Honestly, that strikes me as a patently self-serving distinction, for various reasons you've probably heard a million times and are clearly making a conscious choice to disregard. Which is only annoying because I was honestly hoping you might have an interesting reason behind your opinion. Ah well.
Huh. Honestly, that strikes me as a patently self-serving distinction, for various reasons you've probably heard a million times and are clearly making a conscious choice to disregard. Which is only annoying because I was honestly hoping you might have an interesting reason behind your opinion. Ah well.
44
"A guy who's posting under "Asian1981" ("ASIAN1981") is saying that Jewish people have little dicks"
Depends what kind of Asian you are! Does my dick look small in this photo my mama took:
http://tinyurl.com/5kzp5e
Depends what kind of Asian you are! Does my dick look small in this photo my mama took:
http://tinyurl.com/5kzp5e
45
@ 37- Thanks for that. Well written, factually based, and cited. You might lose internet points, though for not using phrases like "jackbooted thugs" or "corrupt cops".
47
Males with a small penis often seek to overcompensate by engaging in crude language for shock value.
49
That cop is a douche, I feel bad for the census worker to have to go through all that crap.
@Asian 1981:
The last time I read a string of your posts, you claimed to be drunk. Are drunk again sweetie?
@Asian 1981:
The last time I read a string of your posts, you claimed to be drunk. Are drunk again sweetie?
51
40 quipped: "Time to invade Hawaii."
We already did that like a century ago, even killed most of the natives with disease in the process. I guess they're still pissed about that.
We already did that like a century ago, even killed most of the natives with disease in the process. I guess they're still pissed about that.
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