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News & ArtsMonday, May 17, 2010
Life Something to Remember as the College Admission (and Rejection) Letters Come Rolling In
Posted by Brendan Kiley on Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:22 AM
Didn't get in? Didn't get in where you wanted to get in? Just really, really don't want to go?
A small but influential group of economists and educators is pushing another pathway: for some students, no college at all. It’s time, they say, to develop credible alternatives for students unlikely to be successful pursuing a higher degree, or who may not be ready to do so... College degrees are simply not necessary for many jobs.
Like, um, writing for a weekly newspaper.
Of the 30 jobs projected to grow at the fastest rate over the next decade in the United States, only seven typically require a bachelor’s degree, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.Among the top 10 growing job categories, two require college degrees: accounting (a bachelor’s) and postsecondary teachers (a doctorate). But this growth is expected to be dwarfed by the need for registered nurses, home health aides, customer service representatives and store clerks. None of those jobs require a bachelor’s degree.
This is good news for people (like me) who want to see college decoupled from anything practical, like earnings potential. College should be a place you attend because you want to learn stuff, not a place you attend just to be financially solvent—and it should be much harder to get into and free for everyone who makes the cut.
If people stop treating college as a matter of course and start treating it as one of many legitimate post-high school options, it'll be good for everybody: good for poor people who can't afford to go; good for non-studious types who don't want to go; good for studious types who want to go but get insufficient financial aid packages because the non-studious types (who don't even want to be there) are clogging up the system and diluting the resources. (Not to mention dragging down the level of discourse and the quality of the education.)
Plus, if Americans stop expecting college to teach its population the fundamentals, it might put pressure on American high schools to step up and deliver the education it's failing to provide.
College: Save it for the people who want it.
1
i like the idea here, but i think getting our secondary education up to par needs to happen *in order* to get this done, not as a result. american public high schools fare so abysmally compared with other industrialized nations that we can't really afford to reduce the quantity of education we're delivering our kids.
of course, i read this as someone who has been spoon-fed super-elite education all my life, so what do i know?
of course, i read this as someone who has been spoon-fed super-elite education all my life, so what do i know?
3
Yeah, I agree with @1.
It's a slow day at work, so I looked at my old high school's website. Less than half of their 11th graders rank at "proficient" in English and Math. I've seen Pennsylvania's standardized tests. There is no reason for the scores to be that abysmal.
The problem starts at the early childhood level, really. Children aren't being prepared to learn, or they are being coddled along at that young age, and they don't know how to study or how to work at the older ages.
But, having said that, I do think we need a new emphasis on vocational education. When I was in high school (I graduated 21 years ago), there was a strong voc. ed. program in my district. Students who didn't plan on college could graduate high school with their cosmetology licencse, auto mechanics certification, ready for an apprenticeship in one of the building trades, or other career training. Thanks to budget cuts and the weird notion that developed in the 1990's that everyone needs a bachelor's degree to be competitive, that program is gone now.
It's a slow day at work, so I looked at my old high school's website. Less than half of their 11th graders rank at "proficient" in English and Math. I've seen Pennsylvania's standardized tests. There is no reason for the scores to be that abysmal.
The problem starts at the early childhood level, really. Children aren't being prepared to learn, or they are being coddled along at that young age, and they don't know how to study or how to work at the older ages.
But, having said that, I do think we need a new emphasis on vocational education. When I was in high school (I graduated 21 years ago), there was a strong voc. ed. program in my district. Students who didn't plan on college could graduate high school with their cosmetology licencse, auto mechanics certification, ready for an apprenticeship in one of the building trades, or other career training. Thanks to budget cuts and the weird notion that developed in the 1990's that everyone needs a bachelor's degree to be competitive, that program is gone now.
4
Registered nurses might not require a bachelor's degree, but so close to one it's silly to put it on the list.
5
Ha!
@3,
Young kids in American schools test very well, on a par with kids in other first world countries. Where they start slipping is when they get into fourth and fifth grades, where homework and outside-of-class studying are expected. Their failure in that area is a result of two things: parents who don't give a shit and a school system too cheap to keep kids in class all day and throughout the year -- thus passing the buck onto the kids themselves and forcing them to do the bulk of their learning at home.
it might put pressure on American high schools to step up and deliver the education it's (sic) failing to provide.
Ha!
@3,
Young kids in American schools test very well, on a par with kids in other first world countries. Where they start slipping is when they get into fourth and fifth grades, where homework and outside-of-class studying are expected. Their failure in that area is a result of two things: parents who don't give a shit and a school system too cheap to keep kids in class all day and throughout the year -- thus passing the buck onto the kids themselves and forcing them to do the bulk of their learning at home.
8
Go to NSCC, SCCC or BCC for at least a 2 year degree. I've got a few of those, and they're very useful.
But don't try to apply for a job at MSFT (founded by dropouts) without a 4 year degree. They're stupid that way.
But don't try to apply for a job at MSFT (founded by dropouts) without a 4 year degree. They're stupid that way.
9
"customer service representatives and store clerks"
Oh, sweet! Exactly the two careers I've always aspired to.
I mean, maybe those two areas are growing because everyone's always working to LEAVE? Maybe?
Oh, sweet! Exactly the two careers I've always aspired to.
I mean, maybe those two areas are growing because everyone's always working to LEAVE? Maybe?
10
@2: How many of those jobs not requiring a secondary education can support a family of four?
Well, Costco is one. I also know some friends in management at Fred Meyers and Target, who started out low and worked their way up, being promoted within the company. They support large families. All three of those places require a GED or High School Diploma -- more is nice, but certainly not necessary.
Ditto for Barnes and Noble, Borders Books and most grocery stores. They pay decent, and much better once you've worked your way into management.
Well, Costco is one. I also know some friends in management at Fred Meyers and Target, who started out low and worked their way up, being promoted within the company. They support large families. All three of those places require a GED or High School Diploma -- more is nice, but certainly not necessary.
Ditto for Barnes and Noble, Borders Books and most grocery stores. They pay decent, and much better once you've worked your way into management.
11
I'm glad that this way of thinking is making its way to the forefront. Beyond the lack of necessity for many types of jobs, some people just aren't cut out for college. I've seen it many times: people who barely passed high school and have no particular educational goals decide to go to college because they feel it's what they *should* be doing, and end up wasting years of their lives and thousands of dollars with nothing to show for it.
12
Lots of employers require applicants to have college degrees as a roundabout means of filtering out the riffraff. Privileging applicants who went to "good" schools allows a further legal means of sifting out the people who didn't come from "good homes."
It's pretty standard in the current economic climate to see employers asking for a college degree even when it has no bearing on the work being performed. Along with the rise of private schooling for the middle class, it's just part of maintaining a tiered society where money provides access to the higher levels of opportunity. Pretty much the exact opposite of the meritocracy that the American Dream tells us is our birthright.
It's pretty standard in the current economic climate to see employers asking for a college degree even when it has no bearing on the work being performed. Along with the rise of private schooling for the middle class, it's just part of maintaining a tiered society where money provides access to the higher levels of opportunity. Pretty much the exact opposite of the meritocracy that the American Dream tells us is our birthright.
13
One of the things I find funny is how no one talks about the inequality in the current system. Basically, we tax the general public to fund public schools, where children are put on a testing-monitored set of courses that prepare them for college...which most will not complete. Of those who do complete it, well, most of them will come for already affluent homes with college educated parents. In other words, everyone's taxed in order to prepare children from already educated and affluent families for college, while creating an education system which, everyone seems to agree, does not actually teach anyone any sort of bankable skills. And do I need to add that college is as best subsidized through loans for the vast majority of students? So, let's add that to the list: we tax everyone to college prep kids, most of whom don't really need it, and in the end, the group that will go to college will do so out-of-pocket, probably by going into debt, while the group that don't go to college will have been given virtually no useful skills for all the money spent. That's a whole lot of screwed up priorities. And I went to college and came from a poor family, with neither of my parents being college graduates. This is not the liberal meritocracy people want to believe it is, this is a conservative ownership society run-amok, wasting tax money by subsidizing the rich and assuming that the poor (since there are virtually no middle class jobs that don't require college or equivalent professional experience, i.e., Brendan) are poor because they deserve it. Because they were given the chance to make it, right?
14
If I could do it all again I would have went to trade school and become a welder. Universities are a big business. @11 nailed it.
This summer I will visit the east coast and hang out with my friends from high school. Most of them high school dropouts, most of them more successful than I.
Really glad i spent 60k on a fucking Art History degree.
This summer I will visit the east coast and hang out with my friends from high school. Most of them high school dropouts, most of them more successful than I.
Really glad i spent 60k on a fucking Art History degree.
15
@13,
You're contradicting yourself. Does the system only benefit the wealthy or does it prepare middle class people for middle class jobs that require college degrees?
Worst case scenario, the current system solely benefits the middle class, which can't afford private schools. What, exactly, is so terrible about that?
You're contradicting yourself. Does the system only benefit the wealthy or does it prepare middle class people for middle class jobs that require college degrees?
Worst case scenario, the current system solely benefits the middle class, which can't afford private schools. What, exactly, is so terrible about that?
16
The education system is effin' depressing. The co I was just let go from requires a minimum BA and all most of us did was open mail and pull staples. As someone else said, in a city like Seattle where so many people are out of work, companies can demand higher degrees and just do it to filter out candidates. Was there another time when an ad for a receptionist would get over 500 resumes - many with bachelor or master's degrees?
17
@14: "Would have gone," not, "Would have went."
In all seriousness, if you use grammar that marks you as intellectually sloppy, you must be prepared to accept the consequences of it.
In all seriousness, if you use grammar that marks you as intellectually sloppy, you must be prepared to accept the consequences of it.
19
I see 2 problems:
1) Stupid jobs that require a BA, namely admin work or something of the equivalent. How many people with a BA in business are doing much more than glorified admin work? And why does that type of job require a BA? Does it take 400 level business classes to answer a phone or plan a schedule? Ugh.
2) People who get useless fucking degrees. Yes, a BA in art history is not going to get you anything. Nothing, nada...ok maybe a teaching job? Or you could work at an art museum (but how many jobs are there for that versus people who want them). It's a pipe dream. I think the education in those subjects should not cost the same as actual college classes for a feasible career. (i.e.: make it cheaper for art classes, and more expensive for engineering classes). Sure that puts the burden on engineers (something I am going to school for) but hey, I can pay back 30k in student loans. Some art major? Un-fucking-likely.
But we need art majors. We need people taking those classes, so why not make them affordable (half cost?) to real classes (calculus). Just a thought.
But generally, I just laugh my ass off when I hear kids in school talking about degrees that will most likely get them nowhere, not being paid any more than someone who just started working right out of high school. Why are you paying for college? What are you doing? Why put yourself in debt when you will have NO FEASIBLE CAREER with that degree? I don't get it.
People say "oh why don't you major in politcal science?" and I respond "oh, so I can get a job making less than I did when I left the work world to get a college degree? Ha, yeah right. I am looking for a career, not a fantasy life where I run campaigns and make actual money from a pol sci degree. Cmon!"
Kids need to be better prepared that if you get that "women's studies" degree, what they fuck are you going to do with it?
More...
1) Stupid jobs that require a BA, namely admin work or something of the equivalent. How many people with a BA in business are doing much more than glorified admin work? And why does that type of job require a BA? Does it take 400 level business classes to answer a phone or plan a schedule? Ugh.
2) People who get useless fucking degrees. Yes, a BA in art history is not going to get you anything. Nothing, nada...ok maybe a teaching job? Or you could work at an art museum (but how many jobs are there for that versus people who want them). It's a pipe dream. I think the education in those subjects should not cost the same as actual college classes for a feasible career. (i.e.: make it cheaper for art classes, and more expensive for engineering classes). Sure that puts the burden on engineers (something I am going to school for) but hey, I can pay back 30k in student loans. Some art major? Un-fucking-likely.
But we need art majors. We need people taking those classes, so why not make them affordable (half cost?) to real classes (calculus). Just a thought.
But generally, I just laugh my ass off when I hear kids in school talking about degrees that will most likely get them nowhere, not being paid any more than someone who just started working right out of high school. Why are you paying for college? What are you doing? Why put yourself in debt when you will have NO FEASIBLE CAREER with that degree? I don't get it.
People say "oh why don't you major in politcal science?" and I respond "oh, so I can get a job making less than I did when I left the work world to get a college degree? Ha, yeah right. I am looking for a career, not a fantasy life where I run campaigns and make actual money from a pol sci degree. Cmon!"
Kids need to be better prepared that if you get that "women's studies" degree, what they fuck are you going to do with it?
20
Also, admin positions have asked for a BA much longer than the recession. I remember when I moved back to Seattle 5 years ago, looking at job postings and being like "WTF, really?" when reviewing qualifications. How can you ask someone to have a BA for a position that pays under $20 per hour? Or better yet, a job that pays $12? Total BS.
21
@19,
The thing is that people without college degrees are pretty much subliterate, and admins sometimes need to compose a letter or otherwise interact with clients without embarrassing the company.
I'm probably not that much more qualified for an admin job now than I was when I graduated from high school, but I was on the college track, which meant that I gave a shit about doing well in school.
The thing is that people without college degrees are pretty much subliterate, and admins sometimes need to compose a letter or otherwise interact with clients without embarrassing the company.
I'm probably not that much more qualified for an admin job now than I was when I graduated from high school, but I was on the college track, which meant that I gave a shit about doing well in school.
23
"The thing is that people without college degrees are pretty much subliterate"
Those are some strong words. Cite your sources or refrain from sweeping generalizations.
Those are some strong words. Cite your sources or refrain from sweeping generalizations.
24
@23: Yeah, you have literacy problems despite the $60,000 degree.
Zing!
Couldn't help it. You left yourself wide open.
Zing!
Couldn't help it. You left yourself wide open.
25
@23,
I have only my own experiences as an editor and my past experiences reviewing resumes. There is no contest between resumes from college graduates and high school graduates.
I have only my own experiences as an editor and my past experiences reviewing resumes. There is no contest between resumes from college graduates and high school graduates.
26
We should scrap the whole system and start over. Maybe we could start with more employers who actually give a crap about their employees. And instead of sitting around with unfilled positions during high unemployment because no applicants are qualified to your exact specifications, train 'em. Second, college does not prepare us for the workforce. While there are some amazing professors, there are plenty who can't teach worth a damn (despite being the #2 program in the nation) and that's a problem for the classes that were in my major; nothing quite like feeling undereducated on the job. And I'm still unclear why loans were necessary to pay for classes like East Asian Art History (which I loved) when I could have checked out books for free at the library. I majored in something practical (engineering) and I'm still unemployed. Also, expecting 18 yr olds to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives = crazy. And no matter how many AP classes your high school throws at you, it still doesn't prepare you for college, with the tons of obscure readings, a handful of papers or tests, and no hand-holding.
28
I agree with 11. Some people just aren't cut out for college. Not only do they waste their money by dropping out, they end up with huge student loans that they have to pay off with minimum wage jobs. They would have been better off becoming a plumber and winding up with 4 years of wages and experience.
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