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News & ArtsMonday, May 10, 2010
News Initiative Would Renovate Key Arena to Woo NBA Back to Seattle
Posted by Dominic Holden on Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:01 AM
Former city council member Judy Nicastro and a team of cohorts are in the planning stages of an initiative that could, she says, bring the NBA back to Seattle. If passed by King County voters this fall, the measure would create a stadium district to fund the renovation of Key Arena or build a new stadium.
“I want basketball back in Seattle and this is the only way we can do it,” says Nicastro.
Rather than rely on funding from the public at large, the bond measure would likely rely on future user fees and entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue to fund the project. “We are working now on what financial structure would be,” Nicastro says, unwilling to reveal the identity of the people she is working with yet. But funding, she says, “would not be the general public. It would not be a property tax, not a sales tax.”
This differs from Qwest Field, which is funded in part with taxes on lodging and the lottery, and Safeco Field, which is funded in part through taxes on restaurant and bar sales.
A new basketball arena would also require private funding. Perhaps, Nicastro says, even Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, who in 2008 pledged $150 million to retain the Sonics, would chip in. The Sonics left Seattle in 2008 after failing to get public funding to renovate Key Arena, which was constructed in 1962 and renovated in the mid 1990s at a cost of $75 million.
Renovating Key Arena would require an additional $100 million, paid off over 20 years.
“People don’t want to pay for a stadium, and they are not going to have to unless they use it,” she says.
But Nicastro, who now lives in Kirkland, isn’t married to bringing a team to Seattle proper. “We have not determined if it would be remodel of Key Arena or a new facility,” she says. “Bellevue has been very interested. If we raise enough money to do it in Bellevue, that’s fine with me.”
Nicastro plans to ask the King County Council to forward the measure to voters on the fall ballot, bypassing the standard process of circulating petitions. Is that realistic, considering the county is already planning to forward a public-safety and human-services sales tax measure to voters in August?
"The concept of bringing a team back is exciting, but obviously to get something on the ballot there is a lot of work that needs to be done," says King County Council chair Bob Ferguson. The council would need to approve the initiative by the last Monday of July, and several meetings and hearings would need to be held first. "My advice to them is to get a proposal out quickly if they are serious about November," he says.
King County executive Dow Constantine spokesman says Constantine "is interested in bringing an NBA team back to the region. Supporters recently mentioned some ideas to him in passing. He is looking forward to learning more."
“It is ludicrous that we don’t have basketball. How can you lose NBA to Oklahoma? That is embarrassing,” says Nicastro. “Key Arena is a crap hole anyway.”
1
Key Arena is a perfectly fine venue from every perspective except that of an NBA team that wants a shit-ton of luxury retail and other amenities to underwrite their broken business model. To suggest that there will ultimately be no public money involved if voters approve a new taxing district for a stadium is naive (or disingenuous) in the extreme.
I'm a no on this one.
I'm a no on this one.
3
If they can get it in writing that there will be no (or extremely minimal public money with in-writing guaranteed pay back or offset with payback with later surcharges) then all for it.
6
@5 NBA is actually fun. But if they can set it up so that the arena was dual use, that would be sexy as hell, and would open the door for other ice events as well.
8
Dom - not to be too nit-picky, the Seattle City Council has a Council President; the King County Council has a Council Chair.
10
Don't do it, Seattle. Professional sports, if managed by someone who isn't a total idiot, is plenty profitable enough to pay for their own venues. It isn't like theater or opera, which are not profitable and need government help to survive. All municipal governments should say NO to taxpayer money going to stadiums!
11
“It is ludicrous that we don’t have basketball. How can you lose NBA to Oklahoma? That is embarrassing,” says Nicastro. “Key Arena is a crap hole anyway.”
Judy Nicastro, Ladies and Gentlemen! Give her a round of applause.
12
I would be all for an NHL team, so long as it is in Bellevue (520/I-90 has enough sporting issues as it is with the Mariners), and it also never uses one red cent of public money.
But, NBA is far more boring in comparison.
But, NBA is far more boring in comparison.
13
Strong no on this one. But I voted against every stadium appropriation bill, and will vote against every one in the future.
Another example of private profits, socialized losses.
Another example of private profits, socialized losses.
14
Pro sports needs to be 100% off the public dole. They are for-profit businesses; subsidizing them just cranks up the ludicrous salaries. Sick of this shit. Let 'em all move outta town.
16
“I want basketball back in Seattle and this is the only way we can do it,” says Nicastro.
We have basketball in Seattle. It's called Seattle Storm. Women's basketball, women owned, unlike the Sonics a consistent league leader.
Aside from taking money from strip club owners to expand their parking lots, Judy Nicastro was one of the co-sponsors of the circus animal ban when she was on the city council. This foray seems to be in line with her past initiatives.
We have basketball in Seattle. It's called Seattle Storm. Women's basketball, women owned, unlike the Sonics a consistent league leader.
Aside from taking money from strip club owners to expand their parking lots, Judy Nicastro was one of the co-sponsors of the circus animal ban when she was on the city council. This foray seems to be in line with her past initiatives.
17
User fees and entertainment surcharges for performers would surely be to passed on to ticketbuyers, which is certainly more fair than making the general public pay anything but would also make concerts and events at such a venue even more ridiculously overpriced than they already are.
I do agree that Key Arena is crap hole. And a poorly managed one at that.
As for Bellevue, they might wanna ask Everett and Kent how those shiny new arenas are working out for them.
I do agree that Key Arena is crap hole. And a poorly managed one at that.
As for Bellevue, they might wanna ask Everett and Kent how those shiny new arenas are working out for them.
18
Ah, yes, the tired old "we need major sports teams to be a major city" trope.
Fuck that. Fuck the NBA, fuck the Sonics, fuck the desperate-smelling need for Seattle to be "a major city" and fuck every scheme that requires our government to spend time and money supporting for-profit businesses. I'd rather we had bailed out Washington Mutual or that we turn the Fun Forest into free office space for Boeing - at least they're major employers.
Since I'm a fan of irony, I particularly enjoy the false, disingenuous notion that "entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue" is somehow not costing us a penny. It costs us because it's revenue that's not going to anything other than corporate welfare for a business that brings nothing to the city but imaginary prestige in the minds of sports fans. That money could be spent elsewhere. Christ, in this economic climate, it has to be spent elsewhere! It's insulting that anybody is suggesting this sort of ridiculous vanity project right now.
Fuck that. Fuck the NBA, fuck the Sonics, fuck the desperate-smelling need for Seattle to be "a major city" and fuck every scheme that requires our government to spend time and money supporting for-profit businesses. I'd rather we had bailed out Washington Mutual or that we turn the Fun Forest into free office space for Boeing - at least they're major employers.
Since I'm a fan of irony, I particularly enjoy the false, disingenuous notion that "entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue" is somehow not costing us a penny. It costs us because it's revenue that's not going to anything other than corporate welfare for a business that brings nothing to the city but imaginary prestige in the minds of sports fans. That money could be spent elsewhere. Christ, in this economic climate, it has to be spent elsewhere! It's insulting that anybody is suggesting this sort of ridiculous vanity project right now.
20
@16 I'm not a basketball fan, but even a casual observer would be able to see that the overall level of talent and competition in the NBA is not equivalent with the WNBA. It's pretty obvious that she is specifically referring to NBA basketball.
21
Oh, and I'm against this too. The way that the NBA handled the situation with the Sonics was enough to prove to me that Seattle shouldn't be dealing with the NBA as an organization.
22
@18 A new stadium *would* create construction jobs and stimulus. And
"Since I'm a fan of irony, I particularly enjoy the false, disingenuous notion that "entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue" is somehow not costing us a penny. It costs us because it's revenue that's not going to anything other than corporate welfare for a business that brings nothing to the city but imaginary prestige in the minds of sports fan"
If it's not coming out of tax rolls, yes it costs us; but if you never go to a single event at Key Arena v2.0, how would that cost YOU a penny?
If we're going to argue against a thing lets at least be rational, not a roundabout "Fuck the rich" or "fuck sports". Some of us--a LOT of us--actually enjoy watching things like professional sports, even super liberals. I was a Mets fan before I was a liberal.
"Since I'm a fan of irony, I particularly enjoy the false, disingenuous notion that "entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue" is somehow not costing us a penny. It costs us because it's revenue that's not going to anything other than corporate welfare for a business that brings nothing to the city but imaginary prestige in the minds of sports fan"
If it's not coming out of tax rolls, yes it costs us; but if you never go to a single event at Key Arena v2.0, how would that cost YOU a penny?
If we're going to argue against a thing lets at least be rational, not a roundabout "Fuck the rich" or "fuck sports". Some of us--a LOT of us--actually enjoy watching things like professional sports, even super liberals. I was a Mets fan before I was a liberal.
23
You can either have a Billionaires Tunnel OR you can have a Rebuilt Key Arena.
You can't have both.
Discuss ...
You can't have both.
Discuss ...
24
Whatever they do, make sure they stick zip-car users with another 2% baseball stadium surcharge, because what this city really needs is more totally fucking perverse anti-environmental, pro-SOV taxes.
25
I'm a serious NBA fan. I'd love to see an NBA franchise relocate to Seattle and reclaim the SuperSonics name.
But my first thought on reading this was, "Doesn't Judy Nicastro have anything better to be doing? Doesn't this city have more pressing concerns?"
Just think about it. Don't we have all sorts of public necessities going unfunded to which we might better direct our limited tax dollars? City Hall is looking at all kinds of budget shortfalls. We're billions short on all these transportation projects. And yet there are people out there nutty enough to be proposing a tax hike and seriously claiming that getting to watch NBA basketball in person is a more appropriate use for those limited tax revenues.
But my first thought on reading this was, "Doesn't Judy Nicastro have anything better to be doing? Doesn't this city have more pressing concerns?"
Just think about it. Don't we have all sorts of public necessities going unfunded to which we might better direct our limited tax dollars? City Hall is looking at all kinds of budget shortfalls. We're billions short on all these transportation projects. And yet there are people out there nutty enough to be proposing a tax hike and seriously claiming that getting to watch NBA basketball in person is a more appropriate use for those limited tax revenues.
26
I might be for it if they could get the actual Sonics back. They are the youngest team in the NBA, made the playoffs this year, and even put a scare into the Lakers. They could win a championship in the next 5 years or so.
An expansion team will suck for a long time.
An expansion team will suck for a long time.
27
When I see a proposal like this coming from Judy Nicastro, I have to wonder how this well-educated city could have elected such a clueless and unserious person to its city council.
28
key arena is perhaps the most attractive venue the nba had from an architect's perspective. and the sight lines were great - more intimate than other nba arenas, too. fuck it - the sonics are gone, and we can't bend over far enough to please the nba. it's not possible.
the only realistic hope would be to poach another city's team like OKC did to Seattle. the bobcats?
the only realistic hope would be to poach another city's team like OKC did to Seattle. the bobcats?
32
Forget the NBA, bring on the NHL! We have the fifth largest adult ice hockey league in the country here (GSHL), proximity to Canada, and actually are home to the first ever American team to win the Stanley Cup (The Seattle Millionaires).
If you really think that the NBA is a better form of entertainment, I challenge you to watch the NHL playoffs vs. the NBA playoffs and honestly tell me the NBA is more entertaining.
If you really think that the NBA is a better form of entertainment, I challenge you to watch the NHL playoffs vs. the NBA playoffs and honestly tell me the NBA is more entertaining.
33
@28 - The Bobcats made the playoffs this year, and I doubt Michael Jordan would sell or move his team from NC.
I'd say the Grizzlies would be more likely. They were 3rd to last in attendance, and they suck (Zach Randolph is their best player ... nuff said!). They even started out in Vancouver.
I'd say the Grizzlies would be more likely. They were 3rd to last in attendance, and they suck (Zach Randolph is their best player ... nuff said!). They even started out in Vancouver.
36
@34 I was going off the top of my head, and I knew I should have verified my facts.
Consider me humbled.
Consider me humbled.
38
@33: you can tell how much attention i pay to the NBA now. if the mariners and seahawks left, everyone would quickly realize that life goes on without pro sports. except for that big fat guy who lives in his parent's basement and goes to every game.
39
Our mistake was saying "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." It only encourages them.
40
“It is ludicrous that we don’t have basketball. How can you lose NBA to Oklahoma? That is embarrassing,” says Nicastro. “Key Arena is a crap hole anyway.”
Gather the signatures, then submit it to the Council----that is the way stadium Initiatives 16 (King County) and Initiative 91 (Seattle) did it. Then you will found out how little credibility the public gives self-serving statements like Judy's....
Key Arena as a 'crap hole' is the envy of many municipalities around the world, and an excellent venue for basketball. Burdening users or taxpayers with unnecessary and wasteful expenditures---for the sole benefit of an already rich NBA---should not be a concern, whatsoever, for any public official right now.
Judy should try watching them on television--like the people whose money she is trying to so wastefully spend....
Gather the signatures, then submit it to the Council----that is the way stadium Initiatives 16 (King County) and Initiative 91 (Seattle) did it. Then you will found out how little credibility the public gives self-serving statements like Judy's....
Key Arena as a 'crap hole' is the envy of many municipalities around the world, and an excellent venue for basketball. Burdening users or taxpayers with unnecessary and wasteful expenditures---for the sole benefit of an already rich NBA---should not be a concern, whatsoever, for any public official right now.
Judy should try watching them on television--like the people whose money she is trying to so wastefully spend....
41
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Invest $100 million in the hopes of winning back a sports league that went out of its way to rip a longstanding franchise out of the city? Why don't we also bend over, pull our pants down, lube up our backsides and let David Stern do whatever pops into his head? Oh wait, we already did that, minus the lube and the consent. Nicastro's an idiot.
42
@38, well you could say that about a lot of things. Life would go on without parks, libraries, museums, or lots of things, but that doesn't mean they make our lives more enjoyable.
44
@35,
Speaking of crap holes.
Don't we need some billionaire blowhard who can actually buy the team? Who's going to take care of that angle once we have our fancy new arena?
Speaking of crap holes.
Don't we need some billionaire blowhard who can actually buy the team? Who's going to take care of that angle once we have our fancy new arena?
45
Joe @22:
Do you see no difference between the value of jobs that last only as long as it takes to construct a building and jobs which are perpetual? But you're ignoring my overall point, which is: why should the city fund any for profit business? This is to say nothing of funding a business that screwed the city badly within recent memory. Ridiculous.
Is that your benchmark for evaluating public policy? "If it costs me no money personally, I don't care?" Whether it costs me money or not is largely immaterial to me in this discussion. What I do care about is where public funds go, especially during a time of privation and difficult budget cuts. But just to meet you halfway, I'll tell you what it costs me: it costs me the arts programs that those same taxes on performances in the arena could fund, or whatever other civic need could be met instead of biting the pillow for an organization that has proven itself to be a bad-faith partner.
You're stretching, Joe. I didn't write either of those things, and I don't think them. I'm generally against sweetheart stadium deals and the like because they tend to be bad deals for the city, and the main argument against letting pro sports organizations build their own tends to be "I like sports," which is not a more compelling public need to me than, say, schools, increasing arts funding, or putting more cops on the streets. And before you recast that as "fuck sports," I'm an athlete, I play sports, I enjoy sports, and I think sports are important. I don't think that pro sports are half as important as participatory sports when it comes to making a city a better place to live and raise kids, and I don't think pro sports need subsidies.
You can watch sports whether there's an NBA team playing in Seattle or not. But what you must mean is watching them live. In which case I'll remind you that pro sports teams can afford to build their own stadia. The burden upon you is not to prove that liberals love watching pro sports in person. The burden is to prove that paying a for-profit enterprise to set up shop here is better for our community than any of the civic programs that need funding - a good starting place might be the list of cuts in our most recent budget.
More...
A new stadium *would* create construction jobs and stimulus.
Do you see no difference between the value of jobs that last only as long as it takes to construct a building and jobs which are perpetual? But you're ignoring my overall point, which is: why should the city fund any for profit business? This is to say nothing of funding a business that screwed the city badly within recent memory. Ridiculous.
If it's not coming out of tax rolls, yes it costs us; but if you never go to a single event at Key Arena v2.0, how would that cost YOU a penny?
Is that your benchmark for evaluating public policy? "If it costs me no money personally, I don't care?" Whether it costs me money or not is largely immaterial to me in this discussion. What I do care about is where public funds go, especially during a time of privation and difficult budget cuts. But just to meet you halfway, I'll tell you what it costs me: it costs me the arts programs that those same taxes on performances in the arena could fund, or whatever other civic need could be met instead of biting the pillow for an organization that has proven itself to be a bad-faith partner.
If we're going to argue against a thing lets at least be rational, not a roundabout "Fuck the rich" or "fuck sports".
You're stretching, Joe. I didn't write either of those things, and I don't think them. I'm generally against sweetheart stadium deals and the like because they tend to be bad deals for the city, and the main argument against letting pro sports organizations build their own tends to be "I like sports," which is not a more compelling public need to me than, say, schools, increasing arts funding, or putting more cops on the streets. And before you recast that as "fuck sports," I'm an athlete, I play sports, I enjoy sports, and I think sports are important. I don't think that pro sports are half as important as participatory sports when it comes to making a city a better place to live and raise kids, and I don't think pro sports need subsidies.
Some of us--a LOT of us--actually enjoy watching things like professional sports, even super liberals.
You can watch sports whether there's an NBA team playing in Seattle or not. But what you must mean is watching them live. In which case I'll remind you that pro sports teams can afford to build their own stadia. The burden upon you is not to prove that liberals love watching pro sports in person. The burden is to prove that paying a for-profit enterprise to set up shop here is better for our community than any of the civic programs that need funding - a good starting place might be the list of cuts in our most recent budget.
46
"Invest $100 million in the hopes of winning back a sports league that went out of its way to rip a longstanding franchise out of the city?"
What more needs to be said? Why should the people offer anything when we get nothing in return? Just like any other business, if an entrepeneur sees an opportunity to make some money, they can come along, pay their own money to renovate the arena, and then reap the profits. We may give tax breaks to Boeing, etc. because they keep people employed, but you don't give Carl's Jr. money so they can build a shop to sell you hamburgers. That would be unnecessary.
However, I'm glad that enough people have finally realized that funding stadiums publicly doesn't pay off in the long run. Now they're trying different, more clever angles to bring franchises to the market.
What more needs to be said? Why should the people offer anything when we get nothing in return? Just like any other business, if an entrepeneur sees an opportunity to make some money, they can come along, pay their own money to renovate the arena, and then reap the profits. We may give tax breaks to Boeing, etc. because they keep people employed, but you don't give Carl's Jr. money so they can build a shop to sell you hamburgers. That would be unnecessary.
However, I'm glad that enough people have finally realized that funding stadiums publicly doesn't pay off in the long run. Now they're trying different, more clever angles to bring franchises to the market.
47
@42- parks, libraries and museums are typically not self-sustaining financially and need public help to exist, especially if you want them to be open to the general public. Professional sports teams, on the other hand, make so much money they can afford to pay their players millions of dollars a year. If they can afford salaries like that, they can afford to build their own damn venues. Unless the city gets partial ownership of the team and a share of its profits in exchange, it shouldn't be paying for stadiums, especially in a recession that has necessitated deep cuts in everything.
48
Just who do you think Judy Nicastro is, Bill Futterer? When Cleveland lost its NFL team, they had to rebuild the football stadium to gain an expansion team that took over the Cleveland Browns name. On the plus side, however, I am in favor of remodeling and expanding KeyArena provided that it would lure the NBA's 31st, and possibly final expansion, team. And provided that the NBA establish a trust fund to bring the NBA back to Seattle (Let Nicastro run the trust fund!). But I must warn you, the new incarnation of the Sonics will be a shadow of the former franchise's self, just as the current Cleveland Browns are a shadow of the Modell franchise's self, since the real Sonics play in Oklahoma and the new Sonics...well, you get the idea. You will never pry Kevin Durant away from Oklahoma but you can have the number one pick in the NBA Draft. (P.S.: KOMO Channel 4's broadcasts of the NBA on ABC are doing better now than when Seattle still had NBA basketball. If Seattle regains NBA basketball, KOMO's NBA ratings will decline.)
49
IMO the money would be better spent on securing/building Seattle to be the host city for the FIFA 2018 or 2022 World Cup. And of course there are more social issues and concerns right now.
50
Seriously! Come on Seattle! You don't have to be a sports fan to see the value of tourist or even local dollar to boost your city's economy.
This sounds really good. You don't GO to an event at KeyArena or the new venue then you DON'T pay. What the hell is wrong with that?
If Macy's in Downtown Seattle wanted a new store and the way they would pay for it was taking .005% of all purchases to build it then fine. If I don't shop there they don't get my money!
It sounds like it's not a new tax that affects everyone. Again, you DON'T go then you DON'T pay a cent. I'd vote yes. They're trying to be creative and leave taxpayers out. Give them a chance. A building that can host the NBA, NHL, Arena Football, Concerts, Conventions, NCAA Tournament Games and much more brings in millions of dollars a year to the city. To be against that is just plain ignorant.
Don't get me wrong, I'm against taxpayer funded sports facilities as much as the next guy, but if people are TRYING to be creative and pay for facilities with money earned from the actual attendance for events or whoever uses the facilty I don't see the problem.
Wise up Seattle. It's not your money if you don't GO!
This sounds really good. You don't GO to an event at KeyArena or the new venue then you DON'T pay. What the hell is wrong with that?
If Macy's in Downtown Seattle wanted a new store and the way they would pay for it was taking .005% of all purchases to build it then fine. If I don't shop there they don't get my money!
It sounds like it's not a new tax that affects everyone. Again, you DON'T go then you DON'T pay a cent. I'd vote yes. They're trying to be creative and leave taxpayers out. Give them a chance. A building that can host the NBA, NHL, Arena Football, Concerts, Conventions, NCAA Tournament Games and much more brings in millions of dollars a year to the city. To be against that is just plain ignorant.
Don't get me wrong, I'm against taxpayer funded sports facilities as much as the next guy, but if people are TRYING to be creative and pay for facilities with money earned from the actual attendance for events or whoever uses the facilty I don't see the problem.
Wise up Seattle. It's not your money if you don't GO!
51
Seems there's a lot fuckheads commenting here who haven't read the article or have really poor reading comprehension.
"Rather than rely on funding from the public at large, the bond measure would likely rely on future user fees and entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue to fund the project." ie you don't use the facility you don't pay the tax.
Question is would that bring in enough to pay off the facility? Remember the last Key Arena remodel was supposed to be paid off by luxury suite money. This fell short and had to be supplemented from the general fund.
I was a Supersonics fan going back to the early 70's when Lenny Wilkens was a player. The shabby treament of fans like me per the relocation of the team to OKC has put the NBA high on my shit list.
"Rather than rely on funding from the public at large, the bond measure would likely rely on future user fees and entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue to fund the project." ie you don't use the facility you don't pay the tax.
Question is would that bring in enough to pay off the facility? Remember the last Key Arena remodel was supposed to be paid off by luxury suite money. This fell short and had to be supplemented from the general fund.
I was a Supersonics fan going back to the early 70's when Lenny Wilkens was a player. The shabby treament of fans like me per the relocation of the team to OKC has put the NBA high on my shit list.
52
Folks who are complaining about the waste of tax dollars--e.g., "nutty enough to be proposing a tax hike," "NO to taxpayer money going to stadiums!"--really need to read the post again (or for the first time, I guess). Nicastro is more than clear that this wouldn't rely on any taxes or any fees for the folks who aren't using the facility.
53
They are asking to become a public taxing district. If you really believe they won't eventually wind up using that authority to soak citizens who aren't using the facility I've got a Kingdome I can sell you.
And I still pay for a fucking stadium I voted against every time I go to a bar or restaurant in King County, so spare me the soft pablum about how only the users of these facilities and tourists are footing the bill...
And I still pay for a fucking stadium I voted against every time I go to a bar or restaurant in King County, so spare me the soft pablum about how only the users of these facilities and tourists are footing the bill...
54
Use the facility, pay a small fee. Hate pro sports and don't ever go to any games? Well then, this wouldn't effect you in the slightest, so cram it.
55
...allow me to put a finer point on what will happen. Voters will be promised that only users will pay, so they approve the creation of the taxing district. Not too long after that, when it turns out that the revenues are insufficient to actually pay for it, legislators amend the initiative to expand the taxes/fees/whatever you want to call them and voila, you and I are paying for YET ANOTHER F****IG STADIUM.
If "small" user fees were enough to pay for a stadium, please explain why they need to form a public facility district in the first place.
You can't, can you?
If "small" user fees were enough to pay for a stadium, please explain why they need to form a public facility district in the first place.
You can't, can you?
57
I bet most of the posters here who are supporting this extremely vague proposal don't remember just how hard a fight it was to keep the Mariners from soaking Seattle taxpayers by pushing all of their game day policing and traffic control costs off on to us, either.
58
Sigh, Mr. X, you can't collect the "small" user fees without the creation of a PFD. One doesn't exist without the other.
59
So they want to tax the current users to build an arena they will then be kicked out of or relegated to unpopular dates by an NBA team? Awesome.
61
Well guess what to all the people complaining about paying taxes on stadiums they dont use...I dont have a god damn kid yet I pay taxes for schools, I dont go to the library yet I pay taxes for it...blah blah blah we ALL pay taxes for some shit we dont use...live with it
62
Dominic @52:
What an unbecoming way to announce that you don't understand the substance of the criticism.
The juvenile notion that a person can only criticise public use of money that comes from taxes that he pays himself is stupid. Just because somebody might not be subject to a tax doesn't mean he can't object to wasteful use of that tax revenue.
If Nicastro is suggesting "entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue" (which is is not just the hypothetical NBA team - the Key Arena hosts other events), then that begs the question of why that money can't be spent on a more pressing issue than allowing pro basketball fans to attend games in person without getting a plane ticket first.
This is to say nothing of the legitimate concerns about taxpayers getting screwed in yet another bait-and-switch stadium sweetheart deal.
Folks who are complaining about the waste of tax dollars--e.g., "nutty enough to be proposing a tax hike," "NO to taxpayer money going to stadiums!"--really need to read the post again (or for the first time, I guess). Nicastro is more than clear that this wouldn't rely on any taxes or any fees for the folks who aren't using the facility.
What an unbecoming way to announce that you don't understand the substance of the criticism.
The juvenile notion that a person can only criticise public use of money that comes from taxes that he pays himself is stupid. Just because somebody might not be subject to a tax doesn't mean he can't object to wasteful use of that tax revenue.
If Nicastro is suggesting "entertainment surcharges for performers at the venue" (which is is not just the hypothetical NBA team - the Key Arena hosts other events), then that begs the question of why that money can't be spent on a more pressing issue than allowing pro basketball fans to attend games in person without getting a plane ticket first.
This is to say nothing of the legitimate concerns about taxpayers getting screwed in yet another bait-and-switch stadium sweetheart deal.
63
@ 58, actually, a PFD was just created for the Cinvention Center to build convention, tourist, sports, and entertainment facilities, from SB 6889.
I am not so sure that we need another PFD, I think we can use the one we have. What is missing is the revenue source, who and how you tax.
For me, I would rather have a B & O tax on athletes that use the facility on those that make 10x the base wage of a starting school teacher.
Tax the athlete, let Kobe Bryant pay for the arena.
That tax would take state legislative action.
I am not so sure that we need another PFD, I think we can use the one we have. What is missing is the revenue source, who and how you tax.
For me, I would rather have a B & O tax on athletes that use the facility on those that make 10x the base wage of a starting school teacher.
Tax the athlete, let Kobe Bryant pay for the arena.
That tax would take state legislative action.
65
Seattle or Bellevue needs a great arena to hear the big name concerts in, Not be a shit show when Obama comes to town. Yeah, sweet place the Key is... NOT.. That is right when was the last time you heard NOT.. Prob. about the same time you listened to Gary Payton yelling at the refs. Or Kemp doing crazy dunks on whoever gets in his kitchen. Seattle was once a place to be proud of. Our politicians are grid locked and can't do anything!
How can we even be against this issue if the people who enjoy what a great arena will bring will be the ones fitting the bill. Wake up Seattle you will lose out on this opportunity if we don't come to the plate with something.
Make it out of hemp or glass art. I don't give a rip, just build a great place to see a concert, see a professional team play. The Seattle Center is dead. The ones who have been pushing for no arenas have made it this way.. You are to blame for the decay in Seattle. We need to generate work and dollars and this proposal will do that. Get over yourselves and get this done.
How can we even be against this issue if the people who enjoy what a great arena will bring will be the ones fitting the bill. Wake up Seattle you will lose out on this opportunity if we don't come to the plate with something.
Make it out of hemp or glass art. I don't give a rip, just build a great place to see a concert, see a professional team play. The Seattle Center is dead. The ones who have been pushing for no arenas have made it this way.. You are to blame for the decay in Seattle. We need to generate work and dollars and this proposal will do that. Get over yourselves and get this done.
67
Greg,
Can you put together an actual thought and contribute to this conversation in an intelligent way? Or are you the king of one liners? ba dum dum ching. We got Rodney "the greg" Dangerfield over here. Hiooooo
Can you put together an actual thought and contribute to this conversation in an intelligent way? Or are you the king of one liners? ba dum dum ching. We got Rodney "the greg" Dangerfield over here. Hiooooo
68
SubaruDriver:
Benaroya Hall is a perfectly good place to have a concert you actually want to be able to hear. The Moore is a cheaper version of same. Our big theatres -- the Paramount and the Fifth Avenue -- are also good. The only thing we don't actually have in town is a good place to see a stadium show but, you know what? There's no such thing as a good place to see a fucking stadium show. I saw Pink Floyd at the Kingdome in the '80s and the band may as well not have been there. When you're more than a bloc away, it's basically just a laser show with a good sound system.
Of the professional sports leagues in Seattle, basketball was the only one I ever actually liked. Football sucks. Baseball's kind of fun, but the Mariners have about as much local character as stucco. Basketball alone was a good time. But I'm with everyone else here in the fuck paying for their fucking stadium column. If we pay for their stadium, we should get an ownership interest in the team and the right to keep them here no matter what. Otherwise, it's a bullshit investment that no private investor would ever even consider.
The history of Seattle Center, and all the things the city has done wrong there, goes back 100 years. The stadium thing is a blip.
Benaroya Hall is a perfectly good place to have a concert you actually want to be able to hear. The Moore is a cheaper version of same. Our big theatres -- the Paramount and the Fifth Avenue -- are also good. The only thing we don't actually have in town is a good place to see a stadium show but, you know what? There's no such thing as a good place to see a fucking stadium show. I saw Pink Floyd at the Kingdome in the '80s and the band may as well not have been there. When you're more than a bloc away, it's basically just a laser show with a good sound system.
Of the professional sports leagues in Seattle, basketball was the only one I ever actually liked. Football sucks. Baseball's kind of fun, but the Mariners have about as much local character as stucco. Basketball alone was a good time. But I'm with everyone else here in the fuck paying for their fucking stadium column. If we pay for their stadium, we should get an ownership interest in the team and the right to keep them here no matter what. Otherwise, it's a bullshit investment that no private investor would ever even consider.
The history of Seattle Center, and all the things the city has done wrong there, goes back 100 years. The stadium thing is a blip.
69
Judah,
I must disagree on your logic. Once we build an arena it won't grow legs and move away. Also, the entire community benefits from this type of facility. The Key is a dump. It does not even have a loading dock. Benaroya Hall is perfectly good for symphonies and Yo Yo Ma. I have been there and it was BORING! I am talking about the visceral fan participation that you get from having a good arena with a professional team. We must differ in our appreciation for music. I respect that. Just as you have and cherish your Benaroya, Moore and local playhouses, so shouldn't the fans have a venue in which to see the best in the world? The value of Cats and Yo Yo Ma is just as important as a professional team or a great concert from big name bands.
When was the last time Yo Yo Ma brought out 300k Seattle residents to celebrate in the streets? http://tinyurl.com/zonics
That little stadium blip just cost us our NBA team and the Seattle Center lost over 400,000 visitors a year. Not to mention the surrounding businesses. This does not have to be a lose lose situation for our community and we all can benefit. Besides it is not your money. Don't go to Sonics 2.0, that is your choice. But don't try and stop my pursuit of happiness. Just say YES for this fellow Sonics fan. Many things in this world are ugly. But I still eat meat and I still drive in my car even though my lust for meat and gas are killing the planet. Pick your battles sir. We just wanna have some fun. We are an NBA town like it or not.
I must disagree on your logic. Once we build an arena it won't grow legs and move away. Also, the entire community benefits from this type of facility. The Key is a dump. It does not even have a loading dock. Benaroya Hall is perfectly good for symphonies and Yo Yo Ma. I have been there and it was BORING! I am talking about the visceral fan participation that you get from having a good arena with a professional team. We must differ in our appreciation for music. I respect that. Just as you have and cherish your Benaroya, Moore and local playhouses, so shouldn't the fans have a venue in which to see the best in the world? The value of Cats and Yo Yo Ma is just as important as a professional team or a great concert from big name bands.
When was the last time Yo Yo Ma brought out 300k Seattle residents to celebrate in the streets? http://tinyurl.com/zonics
That little stadium blip just cost us our NBA team and the Seattle Center lost over 400,000 visitors a year. Not to mention the surrounding businesses. This does not have to be a lose lose situation for our community and we all can benefit. Besides it is not your money. Don't go to Sonics 2.0, that is your choice. But don't try and stop my pursuit of happiness. Just say YES for this fellow Sonics fan. Many things in this world are ugly. But I still eat meat and I still drive in my car even though my lust for meat and gas are killing the planet. Pick your battles sir. We just wanna have some fun. We are an NBA town like it or not.
70
SubaruDriver:
The last show I saw at Benaroya Hall was Pearl Jam. Plenty of fan participation. Excellent live show.
As for the rest of your argument -- no. First, the Key Arena is not a dump. It's a perfectly nice stadium, adequate for most purposes -- and it was what the Sonics wanted twenty years ago, when we spent $75 million dollars on it. Enough is enough.
Second, the notion that it isn't "my" money is ludicrous. The stadium will take taxpayer money to maintain. Taxpayer money will go to construction mitigation, it will go to utilities, it will go to street improvements, it will go to over-budget costs. And also? It's my stadium now. Handing some portion of its use over to anyone for free impinges on the investment I made 20 years ago when my tax dollars went to pay for the last batch of improvements. The Mariners stadium is a public/private partnership and the taxpayers got reamed on that one. I see no reason to expect any less on Key Arena.
Finally, while I appreciate your facile attempt to paint me as some kind of pipe-smoking tweedy intellectual who doesn't understand the concept of fun, I actually like basketball and liked the Sonics and enjoyed going to watch them. But the deal is, I buy tickets, they buy basketballs and pay rent on a place to play. That's as far as I'm willing to go with it -- no donated space, no in-kind donations, no threats that they're going to leave if someone doesn't buy them a pony. That franchise showed zero loyalty to a city that had done right by them for more than 30 years. Fuck 'em.
The last show I saw at Benaroya Hall was Pearl Jam. Plenty of fan participation. Excellent live show.
As for the rest of your argument -- no. First, the Key Arena is not a dump. It's a perfectly nice stadium, adequate for most purposes -- and it was what the Sonics wanted twenty years ago, when we spent $75 million dollars on it. Enough is enough.
Second, the notion that it isn't "my" money is ludicrous. The stadium will take taxpayer money to maintain. Taxpayer money will go to construction mitigation, it will go to utilities, it will go to street improvements, it will go to over-budget costs. And also? It's my stadium now. Handing some portion of its use over to anyone for free impinges on the investment I made 20 years ago when my tax dollars went to pay for the last batch of improvements. The Mariners stadium is a public/private partnership and the taxpayers got reamed on that one. I see no reason to expect any less on Key Arena.
Finally, while I appreciate your facile attempt to paint me as some kind of pipe-smoking tweedy intellectual who doesn't understand the concept of fun, I actually like basketball and liked the Sonics and enjoyed going to watch them. But the deal is, I buy tickets, they buy basketballs and pay rent on a place to play. That's as far as I'm willing to go with it -- no donated space, no in-kind donations, no threats that they're going to leave if someone doesn't buy them a pony. That franchise showed zero loyalty to a city that had done right by them for more than 30 years. Fuck 'em.
71
Silly fools all of you are..."I rather would have bailed out WaMu" Really?!?! The people who were giving out questionable loans to people with unverifiable income statements. Really?!?! Did you know that the CEO's at WaMu are millionaires. Did you know that a bailout for WaMu would be subsidizing millionaires who are running a FOR-PROFIT organization?
Did you know that when a corporation decides that they want to build or expand on their location they get a tax break or what could be described as a PUBLIC SUBSIDY.
Did you know that in order to keep or entice a company to Washington or any other state for that matter, the state usually has to offer tax breaks to the company or what could be described as a PUBLIC SUBSIDY.
These PUBLIC SUBSIDIES are subsidizing FOR-PROFIT companies who's CEO's are millionaires and billionaires.
Don't you get it, there are PUBLIC SUBSIDIES given out to companies all of the time, just because Athletes are more central figures does not mean that they should be excluded or outcasted from what is standard operating procedure.
Did you know that when a corporation decides that they want to build or expand on their location they get a tax break or what could be described as a PUBLIC SUBSIDY.
Did you know that in order to keep or entice a company to Washington or any other state for that matter, the state usually has to offer tax breaks to the company or what could be described as a PUBLIC SUBSIDY.
These PUBLIC SUBSIDIES are subsidizing FOR-PROFIT companies who's CEO's are millionaires and billionaires.
Don't you get it, there are PUBLIC SUBSIDIES given out to companies all of the time, just because Athletes are more central figures does not mean that they should be excluded or outcasted from what is standard operating procedure.
72
Key Arena is still a kickass venue for concerts of that size (it's incomparably better than the White River Amphitheater, for example). If Kiss was able to get their production onto the floor for their show last year, the loading dock isn't all that bad.
By the way, the Key Arena - which was stripped to the roof trusses and excavated 35' down to increase capacity specifically to the Sonics' specifications - reopened less than 15 years ago.
And I'll restate it again - there is NO way user-only fees can fund a $200+ million project (before interest).
None, nada, zero - it's truly the camel trying to get its nose under the tent. No thanks.
By the way, the Key Arena - which was stripped to the roof trusses and excavated 35' down to increase capacity specifically to the Sonics' specifications - reopened less than 15 years ago.
And I'll restate it again - there is NO way user-only fees can fund a $200+ million project (before interest).
None, nada, zero - it's truly the camel trying to get its nose under the tent. No thanks.
73
KeyArena sucks ass for concerts. The acoustics are terrible and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.
74
If you think the Key Arena is good you're living on Mars. Having a professional team is important to the community. Judah I understand your bitterness towards the NBA right now but think about the kids for crying out loud. Why do you think so much talent is coming out of our area? It was because of the Sonics. This is more then just your tax dollars being wasted. We do benefit.
Why not want a better facility at the KEY Arena or anywhere? Are you happy with decay? I hope Bellevue gets it done so I can stop listening to my fellow Sea-town neighbors whining about their tax dollars. Please tell me exactly how much you spent? Do you even know?
There is a thing in economics called sunk costs. Meaning once you spent the money it is lost forever so using that past event to effect your future is not the smartest thing to do. Your past taxes are meaningless and gone. Think beyond yourself and think of the kids. The kids deserve an NBA/NHL team. This city should have a great facility not a run down remodel of a building that was built for the worlds fair so many many years ago. If Seattle does not get it Bellevue will. When they do I am moving and spending my money there.
Why not want a better facility at the KEY Arena or anywhere? Are you happy with decay? I hope Bellevue gets it done so I can stop listening to my fellow Sea-town neighbors whining about their tax dollars. Please tell me exactly how much you spent? Do you even know?
There is a thing in economics called sunk costs. Meaning once you spent the money it is lost forever so using that past event to effect your future is not the smartest thing to do. Your past taxes are meaningless and gone. Think beyond yourself and think of the kids. The kids deserve an NBA/NHL team. This city should have a great facility not a run down remodel of a building that was built for the worlds fair so many many years ago. If Seattle does not get it Bellevue will. When they do I am moving and spending my money there.
75
That's why more and more concerts are going to the Comcast Arena, WaMu Theater and yes, even the Tacoma Dome. Or, you know, just not coming to Western Washington at all. Uproar Festival is playing 2 dates in WA. Spokane and RIDGEFIELD! We lost a concert to RIDGEFIELD!
76
@75,
Much smaller and larger venues. Apples and oranges.
And having been to lots of shows at WaMu and Key, I can tell you that the acoustics at the Key are just fine (and yes, I do know what I'm talking about. How many world class recording studios have you worked in?)
I guess the Eagles think Key Arena sucks, too - right (I mean, it's not like they don't have their choice of venues)?
Much smaller and larger venues. Apples and oranges.
And having been to lots of shows at WaMu and Key, I can tell you that the acoustics at the Key are just fine (and yes, I do know what I'm talking about. How many world class recording studios have you worked in?)
I guess the Eagles think Key Arena sucks, too - right (I mean, it's not like they don't have their choice of venues)?
77
@74,
"Think about the kids..." That phrase is almost always the last resort of someone who is trying to defend the indefensible. "The kids" will survive just fine without a brand new arena.
Oh and by the way, the reason the current Key Arena is not NHL compatible is that the Sonics went out of their way to make sure that the design wouldn't support major league hockey - they didn't want any competition for those limited sports ticket dollars you know (and as I recall major league soccer was vaguely promised at Qwest field before First and Goal got their special election and ensured that it was a non-starter in the final design for the same reasons).
And yeah, I've also gone to Sonics games - at the original Seattle Coliseum, the Tacoma Dome, and the renovated Key Arena. Doesn't change my view on this vague scheme by one iota.
"Think about the kids..." That phrase is almost always the last resort of someone who is trying to defend the indefensible. "The kids" will survive just fine without a brand new arena.
Oh and by the way, the reason the current Key Arena is not NHL compatible is that the Sonics went out of their way to make sure that the design wouldn't support major league hockey - they didn't want any competition for those limited sports ticket dollars you know (and as I recall major league soccer was vaguely promised at Qwest field before First and Goal got their special election and ensured that it was a non-starter in the final design for the same reasons).
And yeah, I've also gone to Sonics games - at the original Seattle Coliseum, the Tacoma Dome, and the renovated Key Arena. Doesn't change my view on this vague scheme by one iota.
78
@35 - funny, I remember driving down to see the Sonics play at the Tacoma Dome in like, what, '95 - when the were REMODELING KEY ARENA TO BE UP TO PAR FOR THE NBA.
Sheeeeet.
Sheeeeet.
79
SubaruDriver:
Yes, if I disagree with you about the Key Arena it can by no means be because reasonable minds might differ on the question of the Arena's adequacy, or because I'm right. It must be because I'm living on Mars. Well spotted and, if I may say, well argued.
There is a thing in economics called an asset. It's an investment -- something you spend money on that then generates revenues, like tools for a carpenter or a stadium for a city. Pretending that money you've spent does -- or should -- just disappear into thin air is a profoundly stupid idea. The taxpayers invested in Key Arena (twice), and now its an asset we own. It may yield revenue in a variety of ways. Giving it, or the use of it, away would be (say it with me) profoundly stupid.
As to your issue about "think of the children" -- I do think of the children. I think of the tax dollars that could go to educate them, build schools for them, make the streets safer for them, provide them with safe drinking water and renewable energy. Those are just some of the things that public tax money would be better spent on that rebuilding a stadium for the third time so that we can subsidize privately held business that demonstrated no regional loyalty at all. If Bellevue would like an NBA team, they're welcome to it. Seattle has three pro sports franchises. Let Bellevue deal with the frigging traffic jams for a change. And if that means you're going to move and take your tax dollars with you, don't let the doorknob hitcha where the good lord splitcha.
If you think the Key Arena is good you're living on Mars.
Yes, if I disagree with you about the Key Arena it can by no means be because reasonable minds might differ on the question of the Arena's adequacy, or because I'm right. It must be because I'm living on Mars. Well spotted and, if I may say, well argued.
There is a thing in economics called an asset. It's an investment -- something you spend money on that then generates revenues, like tools for a carpenter or a stadium for a city. Pretending that money you've spent does -- or should -- just disappear into thin air is a profoundly stupid idea. The taxpayers invested in Key Arena (twice), and now its an asset we own. It may yield revenue in a variety of ways. Giving it, or the use of it, away would be (say it with me) profoundly stupid.
As to your issue about "think of the children" -- I do think of the children. I think of the tax dollars that could go to educate them, build schools for them, make the streets safer for them, provide them with safe drinking water and renewable energy. Those are just some of the things that public tax money would be better spent on that rebuilding a stadium for the third time so that we can subsidize privately held business that demonstrated no regional loyalty at all. If Bellevue would like an NBA team, they're welcome to it. Seattle has three pro sports franchises. Let Bellevue deal with the frigging traffic jams for a change. And if that means you're going to move and take your tax dollars with you, don't let the doorknob hitcha where the good lord splitcha.
80
Look, we passed a City of Seattle Initiative (or Proposition) saying ZERO DOLLARS FOR FOR-PROFIT SPORTS ORGANISATION FACILITIES.
Why is this even passing the laugh test?
NO MEANS NO.
Why is this even passing the laugh test?
NO MEANS NO.
81
@64 - that's not my choice.
Another former councilmember, Heidi Wills, has two kids and she still lives a couple blocks away from me in Fremont.
Look, people can live where they want. It's America.
Another former councilmember, Heidi Wills, has two kids and she still lives a couple blocks away from me in Fremont.
Look, people can live where they want. It's America.
82
Gah, Will, that initiative stated that the city needed to see a return on it's investment if they put money towards any new stadiums. Not that there would be no money for sports franchises. Damn, if you going to post ridiculous statements, at least get your facts straight. Go back to your precious Sounders, who are playing in a taxpayer funded stadium, by the way. Hypocrite.
83
For those opposed to this initiative based on pre-conceived dogma such as, "Say no to the millionaires, dammit!"), please read and re-read the article so you can actually have an informed opinion based on something other than a false premise. And as a teacher, having the Sonics leave has not improved our schools, our roads, or cured cancer for that matter either.
84
My life has improved since the Sonics left. I'm damn glad they're gone.
Personally the excess traffic and the cultural harm -- our media obsessing over their games -- are the most obvious things they did to make my life worse. And then there's the constant drain on public dollars big time sports teams represent. We still haven't paid off our last Sonics debt, have we? And when economists have tried to measure the total economic impact of of a pro sports team the result is always the same: negative. Seattle's economy would be just a little worse if we hadn't rid ourselves of that pro team. The other harm from a pro sports team is the distorting effect it has on local politics and the stupid thing it makes pols do.
For now only the phantom of the Sonics is driving poor dumb Judy Nicastro to make a fool of herself. But remember when they were really here, and always on the verge of leaving? Everybody acted like idiots, ignoring the taxpayers and neglecting their fiscal duty, just like they did (and still do) for the Mariners and Seahawks and UW Huskies. That soccer team is a scandal waiting to happen too -- don't worry, their turn will come.
Big time sports is a fundamentally corrupt enterprise, and it corrupts whatever host the parasite is living on, be it a a college, a city, or a region.
Personally the excess traffic and the cultural harm -- our media obsessing over their games -- are the most obvious things they did to make my life worse. And then there's the constant drain on public dollars big time sports teams represent. We still haven't paid off our last Sonics debt, have we? And when economists have tried to measure the total economic impact of of a pro sports team the result is always the same: negative. Seattle's economy would be just a little worse if we hadn't rid ourselves of that pro team. The other harm from a pro sports team is the distorting effect it has on local politics and the stupid thing it makes pols do.
For now only the phantom of the Sonics is driving poor dumb Judy Nicastro to make a fool of herself. But remember when they were really here, and always on the verge of leaving? Everybody acted like idiots, ignoring the taxpayers and neglecting their fiscal duty, just like they did (and still do) for the Mariners and Seahawks and UW Huskies. That soccer team is a scandal waiting to happen too -- don't worry, their turn will come.
Big time sports is a fundamentally corrupt enterprise, and it corrupts whatever host the parasite is living on, be it a a college, a city, or a region.
85
Personally I don't give a rat's ass about basketball, so an NBA team in Seattle would just mean I might get stuck in traffic sometime.
If Seattle taxpayers aren't on the hook for a cent, fine. But if it means that we may in anyway end up subsidizing the team, then NO. The NBA fucked over already, why should we give them another chance? Basketball is hardly even a major sport.
If Seattle taxpayers aren't on the hook for a cent, fine. But if it means that we may in anyway end up subsidizing the team, then NO. The NBA fucked over already, why should we give them another chance? Basketball is hardly even a major sport.
86
elenchos, we HAVE paid off the last of the Sonics debt, that was part of the settlement with Clay Bennett. And have you even seen lower Queen Anne since the Sonics left? Go watch this story, and tell me that the team didn't have an economic impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVeRYiJQu…
And don't even call the MLS' Sounders big time sports. Most of those players make under 100k a year. Same goes for the WNBA Storm.
Frankly, I'm starting to think elenchos = Chris Van Dyk...oh, wait, at least he was okay with the public private partnership deal offered by Steve Ballmer. So even he's smarter than you are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVeRYiJQu…
And don't even call the MLS' Sounders big time sports. Most of those players make under 100k a year. Same goes for the WNBA Storm.
Frankly, I'm starting to think elenchos = Chris Van Dyk...oh, wait, at least he was okay with the public private partnership deal offered by Steve Ballmer. So even he's smarter than you are.
87
Yes, I was in lower Queen Anne yesterday. I walked right past the arena. I liked it just fine.
The lack of economic boost and often harm, to local economies has been studied so many times it has become boring. Trying to sell it as anything but a boondoggle is delusional. Interesting theory, yes, but the theory has been disproven. Sports teams suck the economic life out of their surroundings.
And if you think about it, if it were otherwise, wouldn't investors be lining up to put their money into stadiums and buying up real estate around them? It's one of those phony good deals that the smart money won't touch, so they try to sell it to dipshit mayors and council members.
I guess when the Sounders or Storm have their scandal eruption everyone can act shocked. Because when somebody tried to tell you it was coming you went into denial mode.
The lack of economic boost and often harm, to local economies has been studied so many times it has become boring. Trying to sell it as anything but a boondoggle is delusional. Interesting theory, yes, but the theory has been disproven. Sports teams suck the economic life out of their surroundings.
And if you think about it, if it were otherwise, wouldn't investors be lining up to put their money into stadiums and buying up real estate around them? It's one of those phony good deals that the smart money won't touch, so they try to sell it to dipshit mayors and council members.
I guess when the Sounders or Storm have their scandal eruption everyone can act shocked. Because when somebody tried to tell you it was coming you went into denial mode.
89
elenchos
Sounds like you've got some serious personal issues. People liking sports causes serious social harm?
Get some counseling or off yourself. I hear if you hang yourself you'll get an erection when you die. You should try it.
Sounds like you've got some serious personal issues. People liking sports causes serious social harm?
Get some counseling or off yourself. I hear if you hang yourself you'll get an erection when you die. You should try it.
90
Ditto to the prev. comment re: the Storm. Yes, we have basketball. 2004 champions. Best player in the game (LJ); possibly the greatest all time (same). 1-0 this year and looking strong. C'mon. Get on the bandwagon, laggards. 2010 could be another championship. Don't wait up for another Seattle team to win one.
Go Storm!
Go Storm!
91
The WNBA isn't even real basketball. Lower the rim so you can actually dunk and block shots. They draw maybe 10K, the NBA draws 15K. If Seattle doesn't pay for an arena, it's not like that money goes to parks or schools, and we all live in a happy sunshine land where marijuana is legal and war is non-existent. You people are as delusional. Stick to Capital Hill and pretending the Sounders play in the Premier League. "If the Eagles play at Key Arena, it must be good." The Key is like a piece of gold on a pile of dog crap. It doesn't mean it's good.
A privately funded arena, even mostly funded, is a civic gift. And to the guy who whined about paying taxes on food, don't go out to eat. Go to Whole Foods and beat off.
A privately funded arena, even mostly funded, is a civic gift. And to the guy who whined about paying taxes on food, don't go out to eat. Go to Whole Foods and beat off.
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