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News & ArtsWednesday, May 5, 2010
News We Might Not Want To Kick All The Illegal Immigrants Out of the Country Just Yet
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:54 PM
Because it sounds like we're going to need the ones we've already got and more:
Just as the heavy use of antibiotics contributed to the rise of drug-resistant supergerms, American farmers’ near-ubiquitous use of the weedkiller Roundup has led to the rapid growth of tenacious new superweeds. To fight them, Mr. Anderson and farmers throughout the East, Midwest and South are being forced to spray fields with more toxic herbicides, pull weeds by hand and return to more labor-intensive methods like regular plowing.... Farm experts say that such efforts could lead to higher food prices, lower crop yields, rising farm costs and more pollution of land and water.“It is the single largest threat to production agriculture that we have ever seen,” said Andrew Wargo III, the president of the Arkansas Association of Conservation Districts.
The first resistant species to pose a serious threat to agriculture was spotted in a Delaware soybean field in 2000. Since then, the problem has spread, with 10 resistant species in at least 22 states infesting millions of acres, predominantly soybeans, cotton and corn. The superweeds could temper American agriculture’s enthusiasm for some genetically modified crops. Soybeans, corn and cotton that are engineered to survive spraying with Roundup have become standard in American fields. However, if Roundup doesn’t kill the weeds, farmers have little incentive to spend the extra money for the special seeds.
First, it looks like might need all those illegal immigrants for the weeding and plowing in our very near agricultural future, huh?
Second, as we live in a country where only four out of ten adults believe in evolution—and the natural selection, mutation, and adaptation stuff that goes along with it—politeness dictates that we feign shock when it turns out that weeds can adapt to the pressures of an environment laced with Roundup, develop resistance to that poison, mutate, evolve, etc., and then go all Audrey II on our asses. Folks in rural areas—folks in farm country—are more likely to be devout and less likely believe in that evolution stuff. The emergence of superweeds presents us with an opportunity to point out to the rural and the devout that condemning evolution doesn't make it any less true and that we ignore Darwin at our peril.
Third, and this is only vaguely related, but is anyone else wondering how all those Southern states are reconciling their hatred of the federal government and their fear of socialism with their calls for federal assistance in the wake of the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? Perhaps this might be a time to point out that we actually need a federal government for all sorts of things. And making sure all Americans have access to health care is at least as important as protecting the livelihoods of fishing boat captains.
2
Dan,
You have a point. It would be catastrophic and impossible. Yes, our economy would collapse if all those undocumented workers ie. illegal aliens were expelled. But, I contend that many people opposed to the Arizona law miss the point. Here's what I wrote to Charles earlier:
"...I appreciate some people being against the new Arizona law and expressing disagreement but I am finding some of the reactions overwrought. Here's another view:
http://city-journal.org/2010/eon0430hm.h…
I do believe a nation has a right to secure its borders. I also believe someone who is caught committing a crime (probable cause) or is human traffiking and later is discovered to be an illegal immigrant does not have the exact same rights as a US citizen and is subject to deportation. Will it lead to racial profiling? Not so sure. I believe many of us racially profile. Rev. Jesse Jackson once remarked
"There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life, than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—and then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
I believe that is racial profiling. It is bad? Yes. But, I think it (racial/ethnic profiling) can be averted by the police if carefully trained.
You have a point. It would be catastrophic and impossible. Yes, our economy would collapse if all those undocumented workers ie. illegal aliens were expelled. But, I contend that many people opposed to the Arizona law miss the point. Here's what I wrote to Charles earlier:
"...I appreciate some people being against the new Arizona law and expressing disagreement but I am finding some of the reactions overwrought. Here's another view:
http://city-journal.org/2010/eon0430hm.h…
I do believe a nation has a right to secure its borders. I also believe someone who is caught committing a crime (probable cause) or is human traffiking and later is discovered to be an illegal immigrant does not have the exact same rights as a US citizen and is subject to deportation. Will it lead to racial profiling? Not so sure. I believe many of us racially profile. Rev. Jesse Jackson once remarked
"There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life, than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—and then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
I believe that is racial profiling. It is bad? Yes. But, I think it (racial/ethnic profiling) can be averted by the police if carefully trained.
4
I'm sure there are plenty of folks in Flyover Country who firmly believe that Super Weeds are simply God's way of saying, "Use even MORE powerful pesticides"...
5
And another reason to buy organic: A local farmer where we used to live told us that it is not uncommon to spray wheat crops with RoundUp right before harvest (highly illegal) to ensure an "even kill." Otherwise, the weather might turn cold before all the wheat ripens, and make it difficult to harvest. This way, you get to harvest on a nice sunny day (kind of like inducing childbirth to fit into your doctor's golf schedule.)
PS...you are assuming rational thought in the heartland, Dan, which is always dangerous, and reminds me of the saying, "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it frustrates you, and annoys the pig."
PS...you are assuming rational thought in the heartland, Dan, which is always dangerous, and reminds me of the saying, "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it frustrates you, and annoys the pig."
6
The southern states, try to blame Obama in some way shape or form for not acting quick enough. (even though BP tried to sweep the whole thing under the rug with the Coast Guard present ... it wasn't until the satellite footage came about did BP have to fess up to the extent of the leak.) Really ... I think they don't LIKE everything that is happening in principle, and ideology, but they are coming to their senses and going back to reality. I mean, the conservative news is just so loud you have to give it some credence. (the public education for the most part is god awful by comparison.) And strange enough, it didn't always used to be this way. On the one hand, one person might feel that investigating the Shakespearean death mask is a waste of U. S. tax dollars ... ( ... ok ... I'll let the floor have that one.) But on the other hand, it seems like their is a sobering reality of sorts down here ... family values = welfare. The intent to have children younger is there ... but economic reality is curbing their enthusiasm.
7
Ugh. Fuck Monsanto. And fuck the government for letting them screw with our food supply like this.
8
Good post by Dan. To lark @2, I realize you're concerned about illegal immigration, but that doesn't mean you need to get caught in the trap of defending the AZ legislation.
I think conservative columnist Ross Douthat struck the perfect tone with his column Monday. Highlights:
I think conservative columnist Ross Douthat struck the perfect tone with his column Monday. Highlights:
Just because this is the wrong way to enforce America’s immigration laws, however, doesn’t mean they don’t need to be enforced.
There’s a good argument, on moral and self-interested grounds alike, that the United States should be as welcoming as possible to immigrants. But there’s no compelling reason that we should decide which immigrants to welcome based on their proximity to our border, and their ability to slip across.
9
"And God gave Man dominion over the earth." Yeah, right.
Apparently fucking not. All our disrespecful, arrogant, blundering idiocy has consequences. We've got to get a lot smarter, and having an entire segment of the population who'd rather go back to the Dark Ages, and another more powerful segment that's only interested in quarterly profits, is a heavy burden to carry.
Apparently fucking not. All our disrespecful, arrogant, blundering idiocy has consequences. We've got to get a lot smarter, and having an entire segment of the population who'd rather go back to the Dark Ages, and another more powerful segment that's only interested in quarterly profits, is a heavy burden to carry.
10
Look, there's a whole wonky response to this statement. I could get into a lot of stuff about inflation and the cost of one thing relative to the cost of another, and the growth of certain sectors of the economy at the expense of certain other sectors of the economy and so on.
Instead, I'll boil it down to this: not everyone can learn to fucking type. The way our economy is organized right now there are not remotely enough manual labor jobs for the portion of the population that is best suited to doing manual labor. And the manual labor jobs that do exist are either doled out in such a way that they're incredibly hard to get or they pay shit, have shitty benefits, no job security, and are both unstable and unsafe. Thing is, people who score under 700 on the SATs still need to be able to afford housing, food, medical treatment, travel, retirement and all that other good shit. And none of that is ever going to be available to them if we undercut their bargaining power for manual labor jobs by maintaining a vast force of semi-slave labor that can't defend itself from union-busting or labor code violations because everyone in that pool can be deported at any moment.
Which means that we can either support the entire lower half of the IQ spectrum on welfare for the rest of their lives while we drink our $3 gallons of milk, or we can prosecute employers who hire undocumented workers, pay $7 for a gallon of milk, and let stupid people earn a fair and honest wage pulling weeds in Moses Lake.
And who knows, maybe we could offset the high price of milk with all the medical treatment we won't need for the cancer we won't get from the pesticides we won't be fucking using.
It's not rocket science, people.
More...
First, it looks like might need all those illegal immigrants for the weeding and plowing in our very near agricultural future, huh?
Look, there's a whole wonky response to this statement. I could get into a lot of stuff about inflation and the cost of one thing relative to the cost of another, and the growth of certain sectors of the economy at the expense of certain other sectors of the economy and so on.
Instead, I'll boil it down to this: not everyone can learn to fucking type. The way our economy is organized right now there are not remotely enough manual labor jobs for the portion of the population that is best suited to doing manual labor. And the manual labor jobs that do exist are either doled out in such a way that they're incredibly hard to get or they pay shit, have shitty benefits, no job security, and are both unstable and unsafe. Thing is, people who score under 700 on the SATs still need to be able to afford housing, food, medical treatment, travel, retirement and all that other good shit. And none of that is ever going to be available to them if we undercut their bargaining power for manual labor jobs by maintaining a vast force of semi-slave labor that can't defend itself from union-busting or labor code violations because everyone in that pool can be deported at any moment.
Which means that we can either support the entire lower half of the IQ spectrum on welfare for the rest of their lives while we drink our $3 gallons of milk, or we can prosecute employers who hire undocumented workers, pay $7 for a gallon of milk, and let stupid people earn a fair and honest wage pulling weeds in Moses Lake.
And who knows, maybe we could offset the high price of milk with all the medical treatment we won't need for the cancer we won't get from the pesticides we won't be fucking using.
It's not rocket science, people.
11
By and large, modern farmers aren't just a bunch of dumb hicks. Most are educated to some degree, and are perfectly practical and circumspect about observing evolution in action during their day-to-day activities, and responding to it in kind. Just don't ask them to apply those observations to their own existence.
12
In the old days, summer vacation, spring break, and harvest festivals for schools used to be so all the xBox360-obsessed kids could be taken to the farms to work the entire time, usually either unpaid or maybe for $1 for a day.
Time to get back to those days.
Baling hay is kind of fun, but wear thick pants and use those gloves, kidlings.
Time to get back to those days.
Baling hay is kind of fun, but wear thick pants and use those gloves, kidlings.
13
It's not the farmers who poo poo evolution. They know that domesticated animals are clearly evolved with the help of man. Hell, they look for the best and breed it. More proof, if any were needed. It's the periphery services in rural areas. Tools, trucks, canning, you know, laborers. The one's who left school at age eight but continued to faithfully attend church. Rural has come to be a synonym for backward.
As for super weeds, we had better be concerned about the ways we affect the entire globe in millions of ways. But we aren't, really. Super weeds, super germs, super spills are all symptoms of ever growing populations. If we don't get a handle on population growth, these problems will grow.
As for super weeds, we had better be concerned about the ways we affect the entire globe in millions of ways. But we aren't, really. Super weeds, super germs, super spills are all symptoms of ever growing populations. If we don't get a handle on population growth, these problems will grow.
14
And to think of all of those farmers that Monsanto destroyed when they decided not to use Roundup-resistant soybeans.
15
@ 4, you realize that Seattle and Washington have a lot more in common with "flyover country" than they do "the coasts," despite it's presence on one, don't you? When they say the "West Coast," they really mean California, just like the "East Coast" doesn't include anything north of Boston or south of DC.
16
It's not that they don't believe in evolution, they just believe in micro, not macro evolution. They also distinguish between science and technology, supporting the latter while underfunding and mocking the former. Leaving a big fat hole of actual research and hard science, not half science or pretty science or easy to understand laymans terms science. But hey, talking about men and dogs or French fruit flies is better politically.
17
@4:
Yes, I realize that's true to some extent, and I grant, I've lived in places (see below) where such attitudes would not be considered unusual; one reason why I DON'T live in those places today.
@12:
In SW WA where I partly grew up, it was strawberries. Every weekday morning for about half the summer we'd get up at about 5:00 a.m., get on a bus and drive for an hour to St. Helens OR or vicinity and pick berries from about 8:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m., then get back on the bus for the drive home.
The only reason we kids didn't complain was: A.) FREE STRAWBERRIES! ALL YOU COULD EAT! (that lasted for maybe the first week); B.) STRAWBERRY FIGHT! (that lasted until you got caught, then you were banned); C.) $0.25 per flat. I once saw my uncle (who was in his early 20's at the time, much older than us pre-teens) rake in $22 in a single day, which, to us, was essentially a fortune, and D.) lack of teh Interwebs/video games.
I'm sure the price per flat has gone up logarithmically since then, but I'm also quite sure you couldn't get a 12 or 13 year old to do this on a bet, because they can probably make more money selling their old comics on eBay - and for a lot less time and effort.
Yes, I realize that's true to some extent, and I grant, I've lived in places (see below) where such attitudes would not be considered unusual; one reason why I DON'T live in those places today.
@12:
In SW WA where I partly grew up, it was strawberries. Every weekday morning for about half the summer we'd get up at about 5:00 a.m., get on a bus and drive for an hour to St. Helens OR or vicinity and pick berries from about 8:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m., then get back on the bus for the drive home.
The only reason we kids didn't complain was: A.) FREE STRAWBERRIES! ALL YOU COULD EAT! (that lasted for maybe the first week); B.) STRAWBERRY FIGHT! (that lasted until you got caught, then you were banned); C.) $0.25 per flat. I once saw my uncle (who was in his early 20's at the time, much older than us pre-teens) rake in $22 in a single day, which, to us, was essentially a fortune, and D.) lack of teh Interwebs/video games.
I'm sure the price per flat has gone up logarithmically since then, but I'm also quite sure you couldn't get a 12 or 13 year old to do this on a bet, because they can probably make more money selling their old comics on eBay - and for a lot less time and effort.
18
Tons of fat ugly macho conservative mexican rednecks are coming your way, naive Seattle gayboys. Get ready for lots more domestic violence, drunk driving, big loud macho pickup trucks, tacky Mexican shit, dirty diapers littering parkinglots and sidewalks, catholic breeders, and maricon-bashing. Don't know what that last one means? Look it up, naive Seattle progressive gayboy. Get ready for the results of all your naive do-gooderism to move next door to you.
19
Sure, more immigrants are great. What about Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Hondurans, and everybody else who has a big expanse of Mexico between them and a good job here? Mexico sure as shit is not about to let them pass through. Lost in this illegal immigration hoopla is the question of why Mexico should get special status.
21
Chris, how do 12 and 13 year olds come across "old" comic books?
Also -- no. The notion that Americans are just too lazy to do agricultural work (or clean toilets or any of the other shit we use illegal immigrants for) is just bullshit. And if it's not, it should be. When did we decide that being totally fucking useless was something we should encourage in our children? I'm only 37, and I got my first paying gig when I was 7. By the time I was 12 I was working with my dad, doing landscaping for a couple of bucks a day. Had my first full-time job cleaning up construction sites when I was 16. I don't sign off on the idea that Americans won't work, and I neither do I agree that kids won't work. Kids like having money and teenagers like being independent. Make it worth their while, they'll pick strawberries and every other damn thing.
but I'm also quite sure you couldn't get a 12 or 13 year old to do this on a bet, because they can probably make more money selling their old comics on eBay - and for a lot less time and effort.
Chris, how do 12 and 13 year olds come across "old" comic books?
Also -- no. The notion that Americans are just too lazy to do agricultural work (or clean toilets or any of the other shit we use illegal immigrants for) is just bullshit. And if it's not, it should be. When did we decide that being totally fucking useless was something we should encourage in our children? I'm only 37, and I got my first paying gig when I was 7. By the time I was 12 I was working with my dad, doing landscaping for a couple of bucks a day. Had my first full-time job cleaning up construction sites when I was 16. I don't sign off on the idea that Americans won't work, and I neither do I agree that kids won't work. Kids like having money and teenagers like being independent. Make it worth their while, they'll pick strawberries and every other damn thing.
23
The problem is that society doesn't encourage kids and teens to do the work, not that they can't.
Everything else is just Nanny State Nabobs whining about grocery prices as they drive their Hummers to the grocery store two blocks away.
Everything else is just Nanny State Nabobs whining about grocery prices as they drive their Hummers to the grocery store two blocks away.
24
I'm not sure why people hold up the "need for immigrant labor" reason as the excuse to allow them to work here. Considering that these same immigrants seek to become citizens, if they become citizens they no longer will be hired by the agricultural industry--they won't be exploitable any more. People seem to forget that the only reason illegal immigrants are hired is *because* they are illegal, ergo exploitable. When they become legal, who will tend the crops? The reality is that illegal immigrants are similar indentured servants--only a step up over slaves. Maybe number 23 is right on--we should encourage teens to take more physical labor, not just service jobs. But most people don't want their teens working tough, hard jobs, and they don't want higher crop prices.
And I'd like to point out that the people I've often heard bitch about the government the most had no problem accepting government welfare. I think some Southerners just pay lip-service to the whole Conservative "anti-nanny" state doctrine because their congregation expects them to say it.
And I'd like to point out that the people I've often heard bitch about the government the most had no problem accepting government welfare. I think some Southerners just pay lip-service to the whole Conservative "anti-nanny" state doctrine because their congregation expects them to say it.
25
Last time I argued with an Intelligent design nutcase, he informed me that they actually believe in evolution within a species (as in adaptation to environmental pressure), it is the whole definition of species thing they don't like. He called the former "microevolution" and the latter "macroevolution". The way he spoke with such confidence was not enough to convince me he wasn't at least very confused.
26
thank you thank you thank you for the little shop reference. Alan Menken is my lord and savior and im not ashamed! ...i met him on the streets of new york one night. best night of my life
27
the arizona things seems a big much. BUT, we don't need illegal immigrants to do our gardening for us. how do we get people to pick fruit and veggies? EASY. put the jail systems to work for us. this is already being done (WITH GREAT SUCESS, by the way) in many individual prisons. there's even a WAIT LIST for the inmates who want to go work in the fields. Evidently we DO have people that would be willing to work...FOR NOTHING.
i don't necessarily agree with the AZ bill, but the arguments about jobs fruit picking or "jobs americans don't want" are played out and not very good. they sound more like excuses.
i don't necessarily agree with the AZ bill, but the arguments about jobs fruit picking or "jobs americans don't want" are played out and not very good. they sound more like excuses.
28
ha ha! I don't get why no one seems to notice that when you attempt to kill something off you end up selectively breeding it to resist your attempts to kill it off!! Superweeds. I love it. I know, I'm missing he point here. Immigrants. Let them stay - we need them. And what are 'we'? Oh yeah, descendants of immigrants.
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