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News & ArtsWednesday, April 28, 2010
Politics Bill Gates Sr. Thinks Petition Signatures Should Stay Secret, Doesn't Much Like the Initiative Process Anyway
Posted by Eli Sanders on Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:53 AM
- John Gerard
Yesterday I interviewed Bill Gates Sr. about his new initiative to tax the wealthy in Washington State, and toward the end of our conversation I asked him about Doe v. Reed, the case the Supreme Court is considering today. His answer might surprise a few people.
This week the Supreme Court is taking up a lawsuit that grew out of Referendum 71, in which the court will ultimately answer the question of whether petition signatures for initiatives and referendums in our state should become public record. How do you feel about that debate?I lean in the direction that it shouldn’t be public, doesn’t need to be public. You know, I don’t think that the initiative process is the best thing that’s ever happened to a government, to start with. And I think there would be a concern that in signing this, my name will be on page three of the Seattle Times tomorrow morning and it adds something negative to signing a petition, and that concerns me. That’s it.
That’s not the position of the Attorney General of Washington. He’s going to be arguing that they should be a public record.
That’s right, he is.
I’m interested in the thing that you said about the initiative process not being the best thing that’s ever happened to state government—because you’re taking advantage of the process here with I-1077.
That’s right. That’s right. It’s inconsistent.
Allright. So explain your concern about the initiative process in general, as a concept.
Well, they spend millions and millions of dollars on these things. I guess what I’m really saying is that a more wide-ranging, more thoughtful legislature is what we really need. We don’t need to have these semi-annual, bi-annual, whatever it is, riots that we have running these initiatives and referendums. It’s unattractive. But I understand that at the same time I’m saying that I’m not satisfied with the legislature, either. So this is the safety valve, so to speak.
And you’re gonna take advantage of it, or use it, so to speak.
Yup.
Look for the full Gates Sr. interview—in which he talks about Tim Eyman, Frank Blethen, and how he himself became a wealthy guy—later today.
1
Good Morning Eli,
Evidently, neither does Bruce Ramsey of the Seattle Times:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/op…
Evidently, neither does Bruce Ramsey of the Seattle Times:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/op…
2
Good for him. I agree completely. The inititive process is absolutely killing California's government. Every year there are inititives on the ballot that used huge paid signature gathering campaigns followed by massive advertising budgets to make terrible legislation look like wonderful new laws. It's started to happen to a small extent here, and it will only get worse.
Individual voters can only look into each issue at surface-level detail (if that). What we need is professional legislators that can take the time to really understand the laws they put in place. Of course we have money and election issues with legislators as well, but trying to fix the system with initatives is like trying to fix a broken leg with a hammer.
Individual voters can only look into each issue at surface-level detail (if that). What we need is professional legislators that can take the time to really understand the laws they put in place. Of course we have money and election issues with legislators as well, but trying to fix the system with initatives is like trying to fix a broken leg with a hammer.
3
If a person believes "I don’t think that the initiative process is the best thing that’s ever happened to a government", then wouldn't he or she want to at least make sure the process is as sound as can be, as long as it exists? There have been numerous cases of petition fraud and signature forgery on initiative and referendum petitions that have only been discovered because citizens have access to petitions submitted to the Secretary of State. Take citizen oversight away, and Mr. Gates will have an initiative process even less to his liking.
4
Crowdsourcing is not the solution to anything, fraud in particular. Crowdsourcing is just an amusing Internet phenomenon, best kept in a corner where it can't do much harm. Harassment and threats are another Internet phenomenon that is not amusing at all.
I wish more people could, like Bill Gates, Sr., see that this question of public petition signatures is orthogonal to the question of equal rights for gay people.
I wish more people could, like Bill Gates, Sr., see that this question of public petition signatures is orthogonal to the question of equal rights for gay people.
5
Ok. Let me get this straight. He is rich, but is also for an income tax and wants to raise one with I-1077 but doesn't like initiatives in general because of Tim Eyman's nonsense, but happens to be on Eyman's side about the privacy of signatures?
I think I got it. There's something kind of zen about his seemingly contradictory positions. It sort of subtly invokes the question, "what is truth?"
That being said, I'm on the complete other side of Gates on signatures: I think both signatures and votes on initiatives should be public. We're making laws here, after all.
But I too am not so sure about the initiative process. I think it's fine, probably, but that the state legislature needs to act as a check on it: especially on budget issues that are more technically complicated.
I think I got it. There's something kind of zen about his seemingly contradictory positions. It sort of subtly invokes the question, "what is truth?"
That being said, I'm on the complete other side of Gates on signatures: I think both signatures and votes on initiatives should be public. We're making laws here, after all.
But I too am not so sure about the initiative process. I think it's fine, probably, but that the state legislature needs to act as a check on it: especially on budget issues that are more technically complicated.
6
@5
Yes! I've been trying to make the point that most of these issues The Stranger flogs are not ideological litmus tests. Making everything into a left/right issue is lazy and dishonest.
Yes! I've been trying to make the point that most of these issues The Stranger flogs are not ideological litmus tests. Making everything into a left/right issue is lazy and dishonest.
8
Gates is right that the initiative process does more harm than good for the public interest.
But if it is to exist, thereby fucking things up, it needs to be as transparent as possible. So he's wrong about keeping petition signatures secret.
Oh, well.
But if it is to exist, thereby fucking things up, it needs to be as transparent as possible. So he's wrong about keeping petition signatures secret.
Oh, well.
9
"That's right. It's inconsistent."
Love it. Wish more public figures were this comfortable acknowledging contradiction and complexity.
Love it. Wish more public figures were this comfortable acknowledging contradiction and complexity.
10
My take is that Bill Sr. could lobby for the tax he wants to be imposed, but because the initiative process exists, he's trying to use public sentiment, with himself and some other rich folks waving a banner that they're willing to be taxed for the public good. If the initiative process didn't exist, he would simply use his time to go to the legislature directly, which would involve backroom haggling and such. In this case, the initiative process more cleanly exposes what he wants and what we'll get.
Despite that, the initiative process became far more broken when paid signature collectors were allowed, and when the courts ruled that signature collectors could completely fabricate an explanation of the intent of the initiative and not be found in violation of any laws.
Without a requirement for honest disclosure by volunteers, it's basically a way for people with money to manipulate people to get what they want.
Which, in this case, is to pay more money to the state...
Despite that, the initiative process became far more broken when paid signature collectors were allowed, and when the courts ruled that signature collectors could completely fabricate an explanation of the intent of the initiative and not be found in violation of any laws.
Without a requirement for honest disclosure by volunteers, it's basically a way for people with money to manipulate people to get what they want.
Which, in this case, is to pay more money to the state...
11
We don’t need to have these semi-annual, bi-annual, whatever it is, riots that we have running these initiatives and referendums. It’s unattractive.I love you Bill Gates Sr.
12
Gates' position is nuanced but not contradictory. He's saying he thinks the initiative game sucks overall, but since its unlikely the game will go away, here's my opinion on its rules (signatures should be secret) and let's try to use it for the purpose of good (I-1077).
I agree the game sucks, but I disagree with him on signatures. If a citizen decides to play an active legislative roll, they do not have the right to do so in secrecy.
BTW, I-1077 will likely be ruled unconstitutional by courts, just like previous progressive income tax legislation in WA, because income tax is considered property tax, and the WA constitution requires a single property tax rate for all citizens and business.
I agree the game sucks, but I disagree with him on signatures. If a citizen decides to play an active legislative roll, they do not have the right to do so in secrecy.
BTW, I-1077 will likely be ruled unconstitutional by courts, just like previous progressive income tax legislation in WA, because income tax is considered property tax, and the WA constitution requires a single property tax rate for all citizens and business.
13
@7
You're probably confusing him with me. I do that.
I like how he just lays that out there.
You're probably confusing him with me. I do that.
That’s right. That’s right. It’s inconsistent.
I like how he just lays that out there.
15
I love that Gates the Senior thinks the initiative process is "unattractive" and that decorum is a valid reason to oppose something. It's so old-person cute.
16
Mildly off topic, but I think Senate votes should be by secret ballot. It's hard to be bribed by oil companies / banks / etc. when they can't see your vote.
17
@13 - Yes, but at least you're amusing most of the time.
@14 - Apparently, I push your unhinged buttons. Sorry, but as they say, don't hate the player, hate the game!
@14 - Apparently, I push your unhinged buttons. Sorry, but as they say, don't hate the player, hate the game!
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