Slog
News & ArtsSaturday, April 17, 2010
Religion It's Not the Crime, It's the Cover Up
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:28 PM
Someone needs to explain that to him:
And then tell him that we take it back: it's the crime too, apologistdouche.
We expect God's representatives on earth—men who claim for themselves the power to absolve other people of their sins and who believe they have a divine right to place limits on other people's sexual and reproductive freedoms (including people who do not ascribe to their faith)—to hold themselves to a slightly higher standard when it comes to CHILD RAPE than, say, school teachers who make no such claims. And if the church hadn't worked so hard to cover up the crimes committed by child rapists in the priesthood—and worked so hard to enable ordained child rapists to continue raping children—we wouldn't be finding out about all the cases of children who've been raped by Catholic priests all at once. And if the church had taken action against ordained child rapists when they were exposed—by going to the police, assisting in the prosecution of these criminals, and defrocking them (intimidating the victims, silencing witnesses, and subjecting the rapists to "counseling" before shuffling them off to new parishes where they could rape again does not count as "taking action")—maybe there wouldn't be quite so many cases of child rape to talk about. You see, the Catholic Church's cover ups made it possible for many ordained/career child rapists to prey on hundreds of children over many decades. Which is why the cover up of these crimes—which is ongoing (claims that media reports about these crimes are a part of an orchestrated anti-Catholic campaign are the next stage of the cover up)—matters.
I'm running out the door and don't have time to do the math—or check this guy's facts—but there are 6.8 million teachers in the United States compared to 41,489 priests. I would hope that the church's apolodouche isn't suggesting that Catholic parents shouldn't be upset when priests rape their children because priests don't rape as many children as, say, teachers do in real numbers. Unless, of course, the apolodouche works for The Onion:
VATICAN CITY—Calling the behavior shameful, sinful, and much more frequent than the Vatican was comfortable with, Pope Benedict XVI vowed this week to bring the widespread pedophilia within the Roman Catholic Church down to a more manageable level. Addressing thousands gathered at St. Peter's Square on Easter Sunday, the pontiff offered his "most humble apologies" to abuse victims, and pledged to reduce the total number of molestations by 60 percent over the next five years."This is absolutely unacceptable," Pope Benedict said. "It seems a weakening of faith in God has prevented our priests from exercising moderation when sexually abusing helpless minors." ... "The truth is there will always be a little bit of molestation—it's simply unavoidable," Vatican spokesperson Rev. Federico Lombardi said. "But the fact that young boys have gotten much more attractive over the past few decades is no excuse for the blatant defiance of church limits that have been in place for centuries."
"The majority of priests don't want to molest kids at all," he added. "But for those who do, we must make sure they're doing it at a reasonable rate."
1
I can't believe anyone would think these guys are in any way connected with a deity unless that deity were of utmost evil.
2
Ratzi is a vile, hideous poor excuse for a man. Which makes it more likely they will canonize him. As repulsive as his policies are his looks are even more repulsive.
http://www.lionsdenu.com/13-evilest-pope…
http://www.lionsdenu.com/13-evilest-pope…
4
I did the math, but if I did it incorrectly, someone please correct me.
220 children molested / 41,489 priests = .53%
29,000 children molested / 6,800,000 teachers = .43%
o_O
220 children molested / 41,489 priests = .53%
29,000 children molested / 6,800,000 teachers = .43%
o_O
5
Ooh, and just gotta love that graphic of the priest's collar over a rainbow flag. Because its gays and not pedophiles that rape children.
Oh the hypocrisy of the Catholic church. The ends they will go to in order to deflect from the truth that they covered up the sexual abuse of kids.
Oh the hypocrisy of the Catholic church. The ends they will go to in order to deflect from the truth that they covered up the sexual abuse of kids.
6
I had someone on Twitter try to explain to me that there's an ignored "epidemic" of teacher sexual abuse in public schools. And I'm like, a, there are bazillion more teachers than priests; b, there's no centralized conspiracy at the highest levels of an organization to disguise this; c, "ignored"? It's in the paper every freaking day in Seattle.
7
I also found the bit about Planned Parenthood, frankly, hilarious. It's not the fact that these girls were impregnated by adult males that's the problem - it's the fact that they went and got abortions afterward! Because there's nothing abusive about forcing a 14-year-old girl who was raped to go through with a pregnancy. Good lord.
9
I checked the math, it looks like 1 abuse case for every 189 priests and one case for every 243 teachers, roughly. So this guy fails at both math and logic.
11
That 'study' is pretty roughly put together. There is a lot of conflating of different offenses into single categories, which are then referred to later without out any discipline.
http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/about/adminis…
Table 1 is especially egregious. What are those percentages supposed to represent? E.g. the numbers for 'contact' abuse (for males, females and all) don't make sense unless males happen to comprise around 64% of the population in schools, or there's some unnamed third sex that the study is tracking.
http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/about/adminis…
Table 1 is especially egregious. What are those percentages supposed to represent? E.g. the numbers for 'contact' abuse (for males, females and all) don't make sense unless males happen to comprise around 64% of the population in schools, or there's some unnamed third sex that the study is tracking.
12
I see that the Vatican doesn't read The Onion. If they did they might have used that exact claim as an excuse.
. "But the fact that young boys have gotten much more attractive over the past few decades is no excuse for the blatant defiance of church limits
I see that the Vatican doesn't read The Onion. If they did they might have used that exact claim as an excuse.
14
(1) Your own math works against you, dumbass. There is still a higher percentage of priest rapists that teacher abusers. This despite the fact that teachers spend all day, 5 days a week with kids (far more than priests).
(2) When a teacher sexually abuses a kid, school administrators are required by law to report the offending teacher to police, and pull them out of the classrooms. When priests rape kids, the Catholic Church actively covers it up and punishes the victim.
(3) I have never heard of a teacher raping dozens (or hundreds) of kids over a period of decades, without punishment, and being moved around from one school to another, aided and enabled by the school district.
Sorry, douchebag. Fail.
(2) When a teacher sexually abuses a kid, school administrators are required by law to report the offending teacher to police, and pull them out of the classrooms. When priests rape kids, the Catholic Church actively covers it up and punishes the victim.
(3) I have never heard of a teacher raping dozens (or hundreds) of kids over a period of decades, without punishment, and being moved around from one school to another, aided and enabled by the school district.
Sorry, douchebag. Fail.
15
These numbers are not comparable in any way.
50 million students and 6.8 million teachers, in direct contact with these children 5 days a week for 7 hours a day.
However many catholic kids and 41 thousand priests in direct contact with most of these kids less than an hour a week.
Those are the numbers that matter. What's the abuse rate of children, not the abuse rate among priests?
Oh, and how many schools just ship the abusing teacher to a new city when abuse is discovered? I'd reckon somewhere around 0.
50 million students and 6.8 million teachers, in direct contact with these children 5 days a week for 7 hours a day.
However many catholic kids and 41 thousand priests in direct contact with most of these kids less than an hour a week.
Those are the numbers that matter. What's the abuse rate of children, not the abuse rate among priests?
Oh, and how many schools just ship the abusing teacher to a new city when abuse is discovered? I'd reckon somewhere around 0.
16
It's amazing and shocking that the Catholic Church is playing a numbers game with Child abuse. ONE instance of abuse is ONE too many. And these monsters are trying to do comparisons and suggest that someone else is worse because they abuse more kids. Let the schools kick out abusive teachers they do it all the time. The problem as has been stated is the C.C. is NOT kicking out abusive Priests!
18
Totally off topic, but some here is a local pit bull incident:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/91256…
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/91256…
19
"..has prevented our priests from exercising moderation when sexually abusing helpless minors".
Yeah you Nazi pope; it would have been okay had it been in moderation..... Jesus fucking Christ.
Yeah you Nazi pope; it would have been okay had it been in moderation..... Jesus fucking Christ.
20
Cato, just to (very slightly) reassure you, that quote is from The Onion, not the pope guy. Dan mentioned the humor source but didn't do his customary link to it - here ya go:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-vo…
http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-vo…
21
@16
Exactly. The point being made by the RCC essentially boils down to "Billy did it, too!" Their morality is at the same level of the playground.
Pretty fucking sick.
Exactly. The point being made by the RCC essentially boils down to "Billy did it, too!" Their morality is at the same level of the playground.
Pretty fucking sick.
23
@16
I have one friend who's a teacher in the UK and another teaching in Australia. Both had to have police background checks before they started teaching, and if either are involved in cases of abuse OR an abuse cover up they will be immediately turned over to the police and barred from working in education for the rest of their lives. I expect there are similar laws in the US for teachers.
The child-rape is bad enough, it's what the Vatican did afterwards that's extra-special disgusting.
I have one friend who's a teacher in the UK and another teaching in Australia. Both had to have police background checks before they started teaching, and if either are involved in cases of abuse OR an abuse cover up they will be immediately turned over to the police and barred from working in education for the rest of their lives. I expect there are similar laws in the US for teachers.
The child-rape is bad enough, it's what the Vatican did afterwards that's extra-special disgusting.
24
@23 and if someone in a position of authority learns of of the teachers having bad activities going on, or are notified--say by parents, or other teachers, or students--what legal binding obligation have they to notify cops? Arrest everyone in a position of duty and care who doesn't notify authorities for every subsequent crime committed, under aiding and abetting.
25
Catholic schools by and large have provided a safe and superior education for middle class kids at low costs because of the religious orders.
It stands to reason that they would be the bane of the public Teachers Unions and others with an "agenda" who would do anything in their power to discredit that academic system and its values.
26
@24 I don't know about administrators, but people like teachers are called "mandated reporters." As such, they are legally obligated to report child abuse to the authorities.
See the below site for information:
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/l…
See the below site for information:
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/l…
27
Ah, for fucks sake... "Homosexual priests". The age old fallacy that feeds the "gays are molesters" myth. Just in case some people here don't know this, I will offer this, to you too Dan, though I am sure you are saavy already: A homosexual is someone who is attracted to same sex partners while a paedophile is someone who is attracted to children REGARDLESS OF SEX. A study done in... I think it was Utah on convicted child molesters screened them for sexual preference based on widely accepted psychological analysis tests for preference. Out of 175 screened, almost all were paedophiles (in that they were attracted to prepubescent children) and despite most molesting same sex victims, a total of NONE percent were found to be homosexual.
It's pretty basic really, we leave our kids alone with same sex adults far more than opposite sex so most end up molesting same sex children. But to a paedophile, age is the relevant distinction, not gender.
It's pretty basic really, we leave our kids alone with same sex adults far more than opposite sex so most end up molesting same sex children. But to a paedophile, age is the relevant distinction, not gender.
28
#26 and unless I'm blind I see no penalty for failure to report.
The protection of children should not be dependent on the good graces of a stranger's morality. It needs a stick, because people are fundamentally flawed--a lesson from the church on multiple levels, there--and because the vast majority of people will not put their own necks on the line unless there is a comparable risk to themselves if they don't.
Make a law that says: If Person A with child access (clergy, teacher, admin etc) has a documented report that Person B has violated a child(s), and is legally required to report, there has to be a penalty for A if they fail to report B to police in a defined period of time. There HAS to be. There's no other way to stop the nonstop institutionalized protection of child rapists we see again and again and again.
I'd rather see 1% of all teachers and priests nationwide in jail for failure to report, to permanently change the culture of protecting children with a brute force social vaccine, then even one more kid raped. I'd rather see 10 adult lives interrupted than 10 future children's lives destroyed. Any other path but that is pure fucking evil.
The protection of children should not be dependent on the good graces of a stranger's morality. It needs a stick, because people are fundamentally flawed--a lesson from the church on multiple levels, there--and because the vast majority of people will not put their own necks on the line unless there is a comparable risk to themselves if they don't.
Make a law that says: If Person A with child access (clergy, teacher, admin etc) has a documented report that Person B has violated a child(s), and is legally required to report, there has to be a penalty for A if they fail to report B to police in a defined period of time. There HAS to be. There's no other way to stop the nonstop institutionalized protection of child rapists we see again and again and again.
I'd rather see 1% of all teachers and priests nationwide in jail for failure to report, to permanently change the culture of protecting children with a brute force social vaccine, then even one more kid raped. I'd rather see 10 adult lives interrupted than 10 future children's lives destroyed. Any other path but that is pure fucking evil.
29
Did anyone catch that he was talking about teachers vs. priests, but when he gave the numbers it was
290,000 students abused by a SCHOOL EMPLOYEE (that means *any* employee) in a single decade.
Now, I'm guessing if there are 6.8 million teachers, then when you add in the coaches, bus drivers, security guards, counselors, janitors, etc. that make up the pool of abusers for that number, it means that there are a few million more employees to compare to the 41,000 priests. Or it means a much smaller number of cases of abuse, if you're looking just at *teachers*.
Now, even if we collapse teacher's aides and substitute teachers into the group of teachers, that accounts for 42% of the cases in there. Which means it's about 12,000 cases of abuse by teachers a year.
12,000 cases by 6.8 million teachers (I don't know if teacher's aides and subs are included in that number)
220 cases by 41,000 priests
Which works out to priests abusing THREE TIMES as many children per year, given their numbers.
Assuming these numbers are even really the best to be comparing.
290,000 students abused by a SCHOOL EMPLOYEE (that means *any* employee) in a single decade.
Now, I'm guessing if there are 6.8 million teachers, then when you add in the coaches, bus drivers, security guards, counselors, janitors, etc. that make up the pool of abusers for that number, it means that there are a few million more employees to compare to the 41,000 priests. Or it means a much smaller number of cases of abuse, if you're looking just at *teachers*.
Now, even if we collapse teacher's aides and substitute teachers into the group of teachers, that accounts for 42% of the cases in there. Which means it's about 12,000 cases of abuse by teachers a year.
12,000 cases by 6.8 million teachers (I don't know if teacher's aides and subs are included in that number)
220 cases by 41,000 priests
Which works out to priests abusing THREE TIMES as many children per year, given their numbers.
Assuming these numbers are even really the best to be comparing.
31
i was gonna say something snarky about the bad junior college power point not really helping the church out much.. but then at about 4 minutes in I felt the acid kick in.
33
It seems to be a concerted campaign to bring up school teachers, and it's working pretty well because people are actually TALKING about teachers and trying to figure out the comparative percentage of abusers between priests and teachers.
Stop being distracted. First they threw the gays in, then the Jews, then the media, and now the teachers. "Look here, look there, look somewhere else, don't look at us."
Stop being distracted. First they threw the gays in, then the Jews, then the media, and now the teachers. "Look here, look there, look somewhere else, don't look at us."
34
@30 The problem then is why do we never, ever hear about schools and clergy getting arrested for this?
36
@24
I don't know about the US but in other countries one can be arrested for covering up abuse in the public education system, even if one is not the actual abuser - the "mandated reporter" deal appears to be a similar check system. I don't think people in a non-religious environment would stick their neck out like that to protect a colleague, especially if the administration did not encourage such behaviour, as in the case of the Catholic church.
I don't know about the US but in other countries one can be arrested for covering up abuse in the public education system, even if one is not the actual abuser - the "mandated reporter" deal appears to be a similar check system. I don't think people in a non-religious environment would stick their neck out like that to protect a colleague, especially if the administration did not encourage such behaviour, as in the case of the Catholic church.
37
Will they ever stop digging themselves deeper? This isn't poor judgement this is evil. I expect we'll get some press release about their newest choice for scape goats any day, their idea of damage control is enchant the faithful into believing they aren't to blame and that other groups do it too. They have no integrity, sense of justice or compassion. Sick.
38
@30 If I had to guess why you never hear priests getting arrested for failing to report, I would say that it's because they probably aren't generally mandated reporters.
As to why we don't hear about teachers failing to report, I don't know. Maybe they generally report, maybe they don't usually get caught, maybe they don't publicize it, maybe they make deals. I don't know.
As to why we don't hear about teachers failing to report, I don't know. Maybe they generally report, maybe they don't usually get caught, maybe they don't publicize it, maybe they make deals. I don't know.
39
""The majority of priests don't want to molest kids at all," he added. "But for those who do, we must make sure they're doing it at a reasonable rate.""
WHAT?
WHAT?
41
@everyone: teachers are definitely mandated reporters, as are administrators, emts, paramedics, camp counselors (at city run camps anyway in don't know about private), soccer coaches, and many other employees who come in contact with children. As a summer camp employee and an EMT, every time i get a new job I have to go through what's called a "livescan--" it's a thorough government background check with fingerprinting and the works. And yes, if I fail to report anything that even possibly smells like child abuse I get in big trouble. And @38, we don't hear about it because it's not news. People do their jobs, report when they have to, occasionally CPS has to get called to determine whether abuse is taking place (sometimes it is, sometimes its not), it's really sad and difficult, it really sucks for everyone involved, and life goes on. That's how it works in a system where moral superiority is not a defining part of your advertising rhetoric.
42
@41 do you think a law that said if you're found after-the-fact to have obfuscated--ala the Church's historical behavior--that you're heavily criminal liable, it would eventually cut down on all this? I mean, seriously, heavily penalizing laws. A Cardinal or Bishop (more likely) or school superintendent (less likely) moving a child rapist around rather than ringing 911? The Cardinal is put in a squad car in handcuffs for aiding and abetting and rung up on felony conspiracy charges. The law would also mandate that anyone with access to children is on the books to report, even religious institutions.
43
@41 I'm not sure how what you posted relates to what I posted. I was asked why it doesn't make the news when a teacher failed to report when they were supposed to. I listed a bunch of reasons why that might be the case.
44
@42: Yes, that would all be good. Why the phrase, "even religious institutions"? ESPECIALLY religious institutions.
47
@16 Dead-fucking-on. When a religion starts using mathematics (and bad math at that) to defend itself and then insists other subgroups need to be held under the spotlight, that religion is long past circling the drain of credibility. Now it's stuck in the disposal pipe.
49
Am I the only one to notice that guy has a bad case of poz-face? Not that there's anything wrong with that.
50
In my province in Canada, every adult who suspects child abuse has a legal duty to report, but the charges vary depending on who the person was. People who are expected to have the knowledge and ability to recognize abuse (including teachers, health professionals, social service professionals and clergy) will be fined $1000 and reported to their licensing body. My licensing body states that failing to report child abuse results in a life-long loss of my professional title, which means I wouldn't be able to work as a nurse anywhere in the first world, at least. The College of Teachers has similar strident rules. Unfortunately, a Catholic priest could be charged the $1000, but after that they'll be reported to the Catholic church. Dangerous rule.
51
@50, see, rules that like that in format are useless, as far as the Church or a private body such as the Boy Scouts goes. There is no permanent disincentive. Upgrade the $1000 fine and 'reporting' to 'criminal arrest', and leverage a full 'aiding and abetting' arrest for every subsequent child rape that occurs from a delayed or failed reporting to police within say 3 days. Fine the responsible person $50,000 per day for failure (not a flat rate). At the same time fine the group daily an obscene amount, such as $250,000 per day with no limit on a maximum fine. This will 'encourage' the group to similarly enforce such reporting.
So your priest, teacher or scoutmaster is told by a parent or peer that a priest, teacher or scoutmaster is raping a child, but you didn't tell police within 3 days? You waited 90 days? The priest, teacher or scoutmaster raped twice more in that intervening 87 day period?
The priest, teacher or scoutmaster: arrested for failing to report, two (probably felony) charges of aiding and abetting child molestation, a personal fine liability of $4,350,000.
The church, school district, or scout organization: $21,750,000 fine as they were responsible ultimately.
You think the church, schools, or scouts will ever allow institutionalized child rape cover ups if it meant literally seeing their members in handcuffs on the evening news for allowing it, along with multi-million dollar penalties?
So your priest, teacher or scoutmaster is told by a parent or peer that a priest, teacher or scoutmaster is raping a child, but you didn't tell police within 3 days? You waited 90 days? The priest, teacher or scoutmaster raped twice more in that intervening 87 day period?
The priest, teacher or scoutmaster: arrested for failing to report, two (probably felony) charges of aiding and abetting child molestation, a personal fine liability of $4,350,000.
The church, school district, or scout organization: $21,750,000 fine as they were responsible ultimately.
You think the church, schools, or scouts will ever allow institutionalized child rape cover ups if it meant literally seeing their members in handcuffs on the evening news for allowing it, along with multi-million dollar penalties?
52
@25:
OMG! You're right! I never realized! How could I have not seen this? But, now that you've opened my eyes, I am forced to admit the fact that, for decades now the NEA has been engaged in a covert operation to plant dozens of homosexual pederasts into the world-wide Catholic clergy as deep-cover moles in a nefarious plot to discredit the Church's parochial education system FROM THE INSIDE!
The insidiousness of this conspiracy must not be ignored! I urge you make yourself a big sign to this effect, hie yourself to the nearest street corner and start shouting this to every passerby - really, it's the only way people are going to KNOW THE TRUTH! Because you can be damned sure the librul media is never going to breath a word of this, not while NEA has scores of undercover homosexual pederast cells infiltrated into news rooms throughout the land, ready to begin raping children across anchor desks just as soon as NEA President Van Roekel sends out the "go code".
Get to work man, it's your patriotic duty to expose this disgusting coverup!
OMG! You're right! I never realized! How could I have not seen this? But, now that you've opened my eyes, I am forced to admit the fact that, for decades now the NEA has been engaged in a covert operation to plant dozens of homosexual pederasts into the world-wide Catholic clergy as deep-cover moles in a nefarious plot to discredit the Church's parochial education system FROM THE INSIDE!
The insidiousness of this conspiracy must not be ignored! I urge you make yourself a big sign to this effect, hie yourself to the nearest street corner and start shouting this to every passerby - really, it's the only way people are going to KNOW THE TRUTH! Because you can be damned sure the librul media is never going to breath a word of this, not while NEA has scores of undercover homosexual pederast cells infiltrated into news rooms throughout the land, ready to begin raping children across anchor desks just as soon as NEA President Van Roekel sends out the "go code".
Get to work man, it's your patriotic duty to expose this disgusting coverup!
53
Catholicism was a religious establishment with distinction. Now it's little more than Mormonism plus child rape.
54
This whole thing is getting a bit Pythonesque:
...may I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit...
56
"Calling the behavior shameful, sinful, and much more frequent than the Vatican was comfortable with, Pope Benedict XVI vowed this week to bring the widespread pedophilia within the Roman Catholic Church down to a more manageable level."
All things would have been fine if the Catholic Church had only had to shuffle around say 5 pedophiles rather than the several more than 5 they've been hiding for decades.
Let's see: it's the children who are just too tempting; it's the newspapers and lawyers for the victims who don't see that this is not the Catholic Church's fault; it's the homosexuals fault for being homosexual and leading good men (priests) into lives of crimes. Those pesky homosexuals are simply too strong for the men of faith; and now it's that there are simply too many of these priests gone wild for the Catholic Church to deal with.
WTF!
In Jesus' name, just admit the Church was WRONG and start defrocking these sick, sick people. Turn them over to the authorities and tell every woman and man within the church that should s/he do this, s/he will pay the price. No excuses, no second chances, nothing.
All things would have been fine if the Catholic Church had only had to shuffle around say 5 pedophiles rather than the several more than 5 they've been hiding for decades.
Let's see: it's the children who are just too tempting; it's the newspapers and lawyers for the victims who don't see that this is not the Catholic Church's fault; it's the homosexuals fault for being homosexual and leading good men (priests) into lives of crimes. Those pesky homosexuals are simply too strong for the men of faith; and now it's that there are simply too many of these priests gone wild for the Catholic Church to deal with.
WTF!
In Jesus' name, just admit the Church was WRONG and start defrocking these sick, sick people. Turn them over to the authorities and tell every woman and man within the church that should s/he do this, s/he will pay the price. No excuses, no second chances, nothing.
57
I think the Church's role in this is pretty awful. But almost all of the cases at issue here involve abuse that occurred 20, 30 or more years ago. I am not sure if schools in the U.S. or elsewhere had mandatory reporting requirements for abuse or suspected abuse then, but I doubt it. I think those are of relatively recent provenance. But perhaps Dan can take a breather from his ranting and enlighten us? (J/k, sort of.)
It also is worth noting that the Church has something of a valid (or at least colorable) defense in that, at the time, most so-called experts believed that child abusers could be rehabilitated through therapy, which the church often required the guilty priests to undergo. It has since been established (as a mother might have known all along) that the therapy is more or less ineffective and the recidivism rates are high.
One final point: societal views about sexual abuse have changed drastically over the past half century. Abuse used to never be mentioned (or only in hushed tones). Children who victimized were often too ashamed to tell their parents, while parents often did not report it to the police for fear of the social stigma and/or out of other considerations when the abuser was a priest, family member, etc. This did not mean the parents did not love their children or that the children were not suffering. It was simply a fact of life in a by-gone era that is now hard to understand.
Today we have unquestionably progressed in a positive direction in our willingness to openly admit/confront this great evil. But I doubt we will ever adequately stamp it out since it appears to be fairly universal among times and cultures (and indeed some cultures have tolerated and even praised certain forms of pederasty/pedophilia). It's too bad we cannot use this scandal as an occasion also to discuss how those who face this temptation can/should deal with it. I suspect that would do more harm in the long-run than piously acting as though it is a problem limited to the priesthood of the Catholic Church.
In any event, the point remains that the Church absolutely needs to follow the example of Peter and openly admit its errors, sins, and (if appropriate) crimes.
More...
It also is worth noting that the Church has something of a valid (or at least colorable) defense in that, at the time, most so-called experts believed that child abusers could be rehabilitated through therapy, which the church often required the guilty priests to undergo. It has since been established (as a mother might have known all along) that the therapy is more or less ineffective and the recidivism rates are high.
One final point: societal views about sexual abuse have changed drastically over the past half century. Abuse used to never be mentioned (or only in hushed tones). Children who victimized were often too ashamed to tell their parents, while parents often did not report it to the police for fear of the social stigma and/or out of other considerations when the abuser was a priest, family member, etc. This did not mean the parents did not love their children or that the children were not suffering. It was simply a fact of life in a by-gone era that is now hard to understand.
Today we have unquestionably progressed in a positive direction in our willingness to openly admit/confront this great evil. But I doubt we will ever adequately stamp it out since it appears to be fairly universal among times and cultures (and indeed some cultures have tolerated and even praised certain forms of pederasty/pedophilia). It's too bad we cannot use this scandal as an occasion also to discuss how those who face this temptation can/should deal with it. I suspect that would do more harm in the long-run than piously acting as though it is a problem limited to the priesthood of the Catholic Church.
In any event, the point remains that the Church absolutely needs to follow the example of Peter and openly admit its errors, sins, and (if appropriate) crimes.
58
The most offensive thing about the "what about the TEACHERS" argument is that the "abuse" perpetrated by teachers in those statistics includes things as relatively harmless as "inappropriate touching" and suggestive language.
59
"It also is worth noting that the Church has something of a valid (or at least colorable) defense in that, at the time..."
That defense would only work if the Church HAD PREVIOUSLY been tough on pedophiles and only lightened up its response because psychologists told them to. The truth, of course, is that the Church's reaction in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s was no different than what it was in the 1800s.
That defense would only work if the Church HAD PREVIOUSLY been tough on pedophiles and only lightened up its response because psychologists told them to. The truth, of course, is that the Church's reaction in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s was no different than what it was in the 1800s.
60
220 children raped is "nothing to disregard by the way". Whew, good thing Justin Beiber's dad told that because I was totally thinking "220 that's like nothing." I mean didn't 6 MILLION people die in the holocaust!? Let's focus on the real problem- nazis! (And not the ones who were just Nazis as kids and then grew up to be pope).
61
It's not just the numbers, though again, that's bad, real bad. Assuming you have basic and moderately reasonable screening and reporting mechanisms in place, you get a big enough population of adults with free will, there are going to be some people who do bad things.
The question is also turnaround time on a single complaint, and the number of repeat offenses. When you act promptly and effectively on the first indication of child abuse, sexual harassment or rape of adults, or anything else, the individual doesn't get to do it again.
Regardless of the numbers, there is something very, very different between "There was no prior indication that this might happen with this teacher, and we've made sure it won't happen again" and "Sure, he does this all the time, but we have enough good priests so the numbers balance out."
The question is also turnaround time on a single complaint, and the number of repeat offenses. When you act promptly and effectively on the first indication of child abuse, sexual harassment or rape of adults, or anything else, the individual doesn't get to do it again.
Regardless of the numbers, there is something very, very different between "There was no prior indication that this might happen with this teacher, and we've made sure it won't happen again" and "Sure, he does this all the time, but we have enough good priests so the numbers balance out."
62
What the hell point is he trying to make exactly? Yeah, the Catholic church is fucked up but hey, the Protestants, Planned Parenthood and the Liberal Media are really evil! There trying to distract you with horror stories about priests when it's the Terrible Trio who want to damn you to Hell by luring you away from the Catholic church. Don't listen to them! It's better to be raped by a priest than a teacher!
Does he really believe the shit coming out of his mouth? He couldn't find his own ass with both hands and radar. And he's fugly.
Does he really believe the shit coming out of his mouth? He couldn't find his own ass with both hands and radar. And he's fugly.
63
Who the hell appointed this quack as a spokesperson for the Catholic Church? And what the hell is on his head, a dead animal or something?
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