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News & ArtsMonday, April 12, 2010
Animals A Theory Concerning Pit Bulls
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:47 AM
This theory may have no legs or ground to stand on. It's just a theory in my head—nothing more or nothing less. I have no way (or time) to check/test it against reality. That being made clear, the theory is this: In the complex system of American social correspondences, one might be found between pit bull ownership and class position. It is very possible that the dog is more popular with those who have less or little economic power. In this way, we can see the ownership of the aggressive animal as, one, a form of compensation, or, two, a way of overpowering power—making the violent dog nice, cute, or pretty. Because the rich have economic power and prestige, they do not so much desire pit bulls but, instead, powerless animals (poodles) or simply being overpowered (the services of a dominatrix). Again, this is just a theory in my head and there's nothing more to it.
3
Point one: god, Charles, calm down. It's Monday morning, fer Christ sake.
Point two: there's an anecdotal correspondance with socioeconomic status and pitbull ownership where I reside in Salt Lake City. It's undeniable. Your little theory may hold water yet.
Point three: you still can't help but come across as a bit of a poncy git. To paraphrase Shmader, if pretension were fatal, you'd be dead, man.
Point two: there's an anecdotal correspondance with socioeconomic status and pitbull ownership where I reside in Salt Lake City. It's undeniable. Your little theory may hold water yet.
Point three: you still can't help but come across as a bit of a poncy git. To paraphrase Shmader, if pretension were fatal, you'd be dead, man.
5
I was with you up until "making the violent dog nice".
Pit Bulls are not, by nature, "violent". By nature they are protective (among other things). The treatment they receive at the hand of many pit bull owners brings out aggression and violence. I'll admit, the aggression comes easily unfortunately. So..perhaps the economically oppressed have dogs that express what they would like to express to society but can't?
The rich like dogs that are "possessions".
Pit Bulls are not, by nature, "violent". By nature they are protective (among other things). The treatment they receive at the hand of many pit bull owners brings out aggression and violence. I'll admit, the aggression comes easily unfortunately. So..perhaps the economically oppressed have dogs that express what they would like to express to society but can't?
The rich like dogs that are "possessions".
7
People do seem to have some need to feel they have power when they lack power in other ways. Same with control. Some seem obsessed with control and how much or how little control of others they have. The children in so many Pit Bull attacks are powerless. The children are also the victims of violence from adults who need control and power.
8
So here's a rare post where you notice something interesting and point it out, and for some reason you feel the need to say "just a theory of mine" over and over again. Seems a bit ironic.
10
This weekend my friends and I were sort of convinced that it's a "city folk" versus "country folk" thing -- most pit bull owners are usually not people raised in cities (we're swinging wildly there, admittedly). But this would correspond to your class analysis (city = wealth/access to resources; country = the need for immediate physical empowerment due to lack of same).
Just when we came up with that theory, a pit bull ran free outside the Blue Dog, its' leash waving in the air, followed by two young people desperately trying to catch it, one with an "Insane Clown Posse" patch on her hoodie.
Just when we came up with that theory, a pit bull ran free outside the Blue Dog, its' leash waving in the air, followed by two young people desperately trying to catch it, one with an "Insane Clown Posse" patch on her hoodie.
11
@2: Oh, I don't think so. I know an awful lot of people who are substantially better-off than you are who are fervent gun owners. Besides, have you priced guns lately? They're not for people who are broke.
12
Isn't a theory something that is proven in a scientific manner to be true??? What Charles has here is a hypothesis.
14
@12 No. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory for an overview of how "theory" has two broad meanings.
As per usual, Charles mushes things up to prove his foregone conclusions... We used to call this "listening to yourself talk" presumably because no one else cared what you were talking about....
As per usual, Charles mushes things up to prove his foregone conclusions... We used to call this "listening to yourself talk" presumably because no one else cared what you were talking about....
15
still, a gutter punk with a Pomeranian is a delightfully absurdist mind-fuck statement of class pretense.
this:
http://pjbottoms.files.wordpress.com/200…
would be so much more punk than this:
http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Dan/2…
this:
http://pjbottoms.files.wordpress.com/200…
would be so much more punk than this:
http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Dan/2…
18
Well, I lives out in the "country" now, and there sure as hell 'taint many pitbulls in these here parts (that's how we talk out here!). The only time that I saw pitbulls on a regular basis is when I used to live in Seattle.
19
Sadly, this might be the most sense anyone on the Strangers staff has made on the whole pitbull issue.
I can't say if the lower classes are more prone to getting pits, but I believe that the lower classes are more prone to not have a clue how to train a dog (any dog). Also, lower class people seem to be more likely to be involved in the stories used by the stranger staff for their crusade against these loving dogs. Oh, and when they are raised right, they are also pretty damn cute!
I can't say if the lower classes are more prone to getting pits, but I believe that the lower classes are more prone to not have a clue how to train a dog (any dog). Also, lower class people seem to be more likely to be involved in the stories used by the stranger staff for their crusade against these loving dogs. Oh, and when they are raised right, they are also pretty damn cute!
20
Personally, I think it's a combination of a cyclical increase in dog ownership combined with an increased desire to own more exotic (and more expensive) pets. So, no, I don't think it's anything to do with less economic power. While it's true that a lot of pit bull stories take place among the white trash population, the dogs that annoy me more (because I encounter them more often) belong to the comfortable and the hip.
It's not the economically powerless who are bringing their giant, muddy, untrained beasts into bars and restaurants, or struggling to control them around Green Lake. It's hip young people who think that the only thing that matters is how cool something is, not whether they have the time or inclination to control it.
It's not the economically powerless who are bringing their giant, muddy, untrained beasts into bars and restaurants, or struggling to control them around Green Lake. It's hip young people who think that the only thing that matters is how cool something is, not whether they have the time or inclination to control it.
21
Keekee, I was thinking more about people who move from the country to the city and THEN get pit bulls. It's a "poor country" mentality, not necessarily the physical placement of the owners now. Sorry for the lack of clarity in my original posting.
Fnarf has a (good) point about city hipsters having them (being the most annoying) -- my only suggestion would be whether or not these people grew up (poor) in rural and suburban areas or were raised in the city.
Fnarf has a (good) point about city hipsters having them (being the most annoying) -- my only suggestion would be whether or not these people grew up (poor) in rural and suburban areas or were raised in the city.
23
Standard poodles are large hunting dogs that can rip your face off. The foofy hair just changes the way people think about them. And the way people think about dogs is at the very heart of the problem here.
And Fnarf's point is terrible, I'm afraid, because it is not relevant to the real problem: if a bar or restaurant patron is being disruptive for whatever reason (drunk, stinky, loud, throwing food, brought a dog, whatever it is), contact the staff and explain the problem to them. If the management of Green Lake bars and restaurants would rather have the business of obnoxious dog owners than yours, go elsewhere. Problem solved.
I want someone to explain to me why not one of these complaints about dogs in bars includes mention of what the staff said when you complained about it. Somebody tell me why that is, because it seriously baffles me.
And Fnarf's point is terrible, I'm afraid, because it is not relevant to the real problem: if a bar or restaurant patron is being disruptive for whatever reason (drunk, stinky, loud, throwing food, brought a dog, whatever it is), contact the staff and explain the problem to them. If the management of Green Lake bars and restaurants would rather have the business of obnoxious dog owners than yours, go elsewhere. Problem solved.
I want someone to explain to me why not one of these complaints about dogs in bars includes mention of what the staff said when you complained about it. Somebody tell me why that is, because it seriously baffles me.
24
I think you're right on, Charles. There is indeed a socioeconomic thing going on with breed preference (also men prefer them more than do women). Typical pit bull owners are also way less likely to socialize their dogs properly when they are puppies or to train them using positive reinforcement, instead encouraging aggressive behavior rather than social behavior within human society.
Poodles were originally a German breed of fowl-hunting/water dog; they appeal to the bourgeois and upper classes in part because of their aristocratic history. However, what we perceive as their silly traditional clipping was originally designed to make it easier for them to work in marshy areas. Their grooming is anachronistic now since poodles rarely hunt, and the connection to the breed's original purpose isn't obvious any more.
Poodles are also considered among the most intelligent and easy-to-train of the dog breeds, along with several herding breeds, German shepherds, and other retriever breeds. People don't adopt pit bulls for their learning capacity, by contrast.
Poodles were originally a German breed of fowl-hunting/water dog; they appeal to the bourgeois and upper classes in part because of their aristocratic history. However, what we perceive as their silly traditional clipping was originally designed to make it easier for them to work in marshy areas. Their grooming is anachronistic now since poodles rarely hunt, and the connection to the breed's original purpose isn't obvious any more.
Poodles are also considered among the most intelligent and easy-to-train of the dog breeds, along with several herding breeds, German shepherds, and other retriever breeds. People don't adopt pit bulls for their learning capacity, by contrast.
26
@23, bars and restaurants are only part of the problem. When I'm walking down the street, who do you suggest I complain to? And "if you don't like it, leave" is a pretty obnoxious response to any kind of incivility, whether it be smoking or wet inquisitive critters with killer jaws.
27
Standard poodles might be powerless to refuse the stupid haircuts that their owners inflict on them, but otherwise they're just as powerful as any other breed their size.
28
pit bulls = white trash.
same with muscle cars, and a belief system that one is vitally independent and liberty loving defender of Americana despite the truth one is an oppressed member of the working class.
same with tats, guns, lots of things.
they're gross, like the people who own them.
same with muscle cars, and a belief system that one is vitally independent and liberty loving defender of Americana despite the truth one is an oppressed member of the working class.
same with tats, guns, lots of things.
they're gross, like the people who own them.
30
Fnarf, I'm only talking about bars and restaurants, at the moment. Savage, Mudede, and lots of others complain about dogs in bars and restaurants all the time and it baffles me. Ask your server what the hell is up with that annoying dog!
It's like if you went into the Eagle or the Cuff or whatever and your head exploded because you saw things you'd never imagined men would or could do. Talk to the management -- learn whether or not that place caters to that type of customer -- and then take your business to an appropriate establishment. Everybody should be happy.
Oh, and as far as being safe walking down the street, the answers can be found in the highly enlightening report A community approach to dog bite prevention (PDF) from our friends at the CDC and AVMA. Humans have thrived alongside dogs for something like 100,000 years, and there is a method, well understood by experts in the field, to how we go about doing that so well.
It's like if you went into the Eagle or the Cuff or whatever and your head exploded because you saw things you'd never imagined men would or could do. Talk to the management -- learn whether or not that place caters to that type of customer -- and then take your business to an appropriate establishment. Everybody should be happy.
Oh, and as far as being safe walking down the street, the answers can be found in the highly enlightening report A community approach to dog bite prevention (PDF) from our friends at the CDC and AVMA. Humans have thrived alongside dogs for something like 100,000 years, and there is a method, well understood by experts in the field, to how we go about doing that so well.
31
"just a theory also" @ some number:
Pit Bull violence is not very related to being protective. Pit Bulls actually make crappy guard dogs, because they are so inconsistant and unmotivated by the protective instinct. This is why no guard dog companies train pitbulls to guard stuff.
Most stories of pit bull attacks appear to be related more to a predator-prey response, inconsistantly related to how the dog itself has been treated by its humans...
I have known quite a few pit bull owners personally and they have all praised the pit bull as being a very sweet loving companion animal. That has been my limited experience with their dogs also.
Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion shared by Savage and many here. They are by nature too unpredictable to have the potential danger reliably trained out of them...
Charles: as you sometimes do, you've taken a rational but banal thought and run it out [a nether region] to try to give it an intellectual shape and color...
The very biggest most powerful dogs in the US that I've encountered are owned by the wealthy or those in the country who need work/guard dogs. A pit bull is kind of a convenience store version of a tough dog. They fit in an ordinary car and their poops are small enough not to be too embarrassing. If you have a Great Dane or mastiff, you can't pretend it wasn't your dog that did it...
And re the poodle: these days most people own poodles not because they are effeminate, but BECAUSE THEY DON'T FUCKING SHED so much hair!
sheesh.
Pit Bull violence is not very related to being protective. Pit Bulls actually make crappy guard dogs, because they are so inconsistant and unmotivated by the protective instinct. This is why no guard dog companies train pitbulls to guard stuff.
Most stories of pit bull attacks appear to be related more to a predator-prey response, inconsistantly related to how the dog itself has been treated by its humans...
I have known quite a few pit bull owners personally and they have all praised the pit bull as being a very sweet loving companion animal. That has been my limited experience with their dogs also.
Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion shared by Savage and many here. They are by nature too unpredictable to have the potential danger reliably trained out of them...
Charles: as you sometimes do, you've taken a rational but banal thought and run it out [a nether region] to try to give it an intellectual shape and color...
The very biggest most powerful dogs in the US that I've encountered are owned by the wealthy or those in the country who need work/guard dogs. A pit bull is kind of a convenience store version of a tough dog. They fit in an ordinary car and their poops are small enough not to be too embarrassing. If you have a Great Dane or mastiff, you can't pretend it wasn't your dog that did it...
And re the poodle: these days most people own poodles not because they are effeminate, but BECAUSE THEY DON'T FUCKING SHED so much hair!
sheesh.
32
Totally with you. I've been waiting for someone to point this out...
@31 I saw a pit bull attack a dog on-a-fucking-leash at the dog park over the weekend. It could have been because he was an un-neutered, male with poor training or perhaps it was because his owner was so strung out he didn't give a shit. When a woman approached the owner he was EXTREMELY aggressive. Huh, wonder where the dog got it. Thank god I didn't have my stun-gun or I would've gone after the owner. It's hard to blame a dumb dog, not so hard to blame a belligerent ass-hole for acting irresponsibly.
And I'm totally with you on the poodle thing...
@31 I saw a pit bull attack a dog on-a-fucking-leash at the dog park over the weekend. It could have been because he was an un-neutered, male with poor training or perhaps it was because his owner was so strung out he didn't give a shit. When a woman approached the owner he was EXTREMELY aggressive. Huh, wonder where the dog got it. Thank god I didn't have my stun-gun or I would've gone after the owner. It's hard to blame a dumb dog, not so hard to blame a belligerent ass-hole for acting irresponsibly.
And I'm totally with you on the poodle thing...
34
Pitbulls aren't inherently more violent than most other breeds of dogs...they place fairly high on temperament testing:
http://www.atts.org/stats1.html
"two, a way of overpowering power—making the violent dog nice, cute, or pretty."
Replace violent with "dog with a violent reputation," and maybe this applies sometimes.
Some other times, if a poor person, or a person with less power is likely to adopt a pitbull - MAYBE it's because we relate to the breed because we can see they're being screwed over, treated unfairly, given the short end of the stick, getting a bad rap, much like we are when people assume most women on welfare are "welfare queens," while IGNORING the actual statistics, and something very important called context.
And before anyone derails this by accusing me of comparing humans to dogs, I am NOT saying humans and dogs are the same, but as sentient creatures there are similarities that make one able to relate (NOT equate) the experiences of one with the experiences of the other.
http://www.atts.org/stats1.html
"two, a way of overpowering power—making the violent dog nice, cute, or pretty."
Replace violent with "dog with a violent reputation," and maybe this applies sometimes.
Some other times, if a poor person, or a person with less power is likely to adopt a pitbull - MAYBE it's because we relate to the breed because we can see they're being screwed over, treated unfairly, given the short end of the stick, getting a bad rap, much like we are when people assume most women on welfare are "welfare queens," while IGNORING the actual statistics, and something very important called context.
And before anyone derails this by accusing me of comparing humans to dogs, I am NOT saying humans and dogs are the same, but as sentient creatures there are similarities that make one able to relate (NOT equate) the experiences of one with the experiences of the other.
35
Pitts provide a sense of protection. A burglar is less likely to break into a home where a pit resides.
Also, they look badass. Similar to wife-beaters and tatoos, they have an extremely masculine look. A look that, like so many urbanites', says "don't mess with me and I won't mess with you."
The problem is, the 'look' comes with a metabolism that must be exhausted in order for the dog to live in a small area, among humans. As with any animal, the more you exhaust the pit, the more conditioned it becomes and the more exercise it needs - Pair this with a lazy or aggressive owner and you have a recipe for an abandoned or brutally-conditioned dog.
They are essentially as much a lap-dog/barker as chihuahuas, just weigh about 50lbs more.
Also, they look badass. Similar to wife-beaters and tatoos, they have an extremely masculine look. A look that, like so many urbanites', says "don't mess with me and I won't mess with you."
The problem is, the 'look' comes with a metabolism that must be exhausted in order for the dog to live in a small area, among humans. As with any animal, the more you exhaust the pit, the more conditioned it becomes and the more exercise it needs - Pair this with a lazy or aggressive owner and you have a recipe for an abandoned or brutally-conditioned dog.
They are essentially as much a lap-dog/barker as chihuahuas, just weigh about 50lbs more.
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