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News & ArtsThursday, April 1, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Two Simple Words
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:21 PM
This letter actually came in August...
I'm a 21 year old straight guy, and I've been with a wonderful woman for almost two years now. Everything used to be great, but she's slowly been changing. Her mom is bipolar, and she is starting to exhibit a lot of the signs of generalized anxiety disorder. Usually, this would manifest itself as anxiety about exams and school, but recently it has gotten worse. We spent this summer apart, doing a long distance relationship, and she began to stress out about me not emailing her frequently enough. Even though she was literally on the opposite side of the world, we were emailing about once a day and chatting online four or five times per week.Here's where it gets a little messy. She was freaking out over our relationship, demanding constant reassurances that I wasn't seeing other people, that I was in love with her, etc. I tried to comply as best I could. Then, I find out that she logged into my email account. I confronted her and we had a five hour fight which concluded with her promising that it was a momentary lapse, she only read a couple things, then logged out. I forgave her, but told her that she had to trust me more, and had to work on her anxiety problems (including suggesting seeing professionals). A couple weeks later, after a few days where I had been too busy to send her any long emails, she calls me and tearfully confesses that she didn't just read my email, she had also logged into my Facebook and Skype accounts to read my private messages.
I don't want to be in a relationship where my partner is insecure and doesn't trust me. What I want to know is, is it ok to break up with someone because of something out of their control? I know my girlfriend, and this isn't her. She is trusting and loving, but her anxiety has turned her into a different person. Should I just forgive her again and hope she gets better?
Dating A Woman With Problems
I emailed DAWWP a two-word response when his letter arrived: "Break up." And today DAWWP wrote back to say...
I just wanted to write to you and tell you that you were totally right. Because I am young and naive and foolhardy, I tried to stick it out with this girl. It got progressively worse and worse and eventually ended horribly a month after I wrote to you. But now I've had some rebound sex and am currently involved with a fantastic lady! If you have any readers who, like me, are on the fence about something, they should think again and listen to you! Thanks again!No Longer Dating A Woman With Problems
You're welcome, NLDAWWP. And here's a bonus SLLOTD that came today:
I'm a young straight feminist male, and I've been dating my feminist girlfriend monogamously for almost two years. Recently I've been coming to terms with the fact that I am turned on by rape fantasies. Of course I find the idea of actual rape repugnant—this is probably, of course, an important reason why fantasizing about it turns me on—but I thought I might like to simulate my fantasy in some way. I sent out some feelers with my girlfriend by initiating a conversation about kinks and asking about what type of kinks she would hypothetically be comfortable accommodating. I asked her to imagine that I fantasized about feeling up women on the subway and wanted her to simulate that fantasy with me. Her response was that she would try to "cure" me of my desire, help me figure out and work through the psychological gender-power issues behind it, and try to show me how enjoyable consensual sex is. My first thought was, "Well that's not a way to be GGG...", but then I reconsidered. Would indulging that fantasy only reinforce the patriarchal patterns of thought which I've tried to expunge from my brain? How much of a point does she have?Feminist Rape Fantasist
Break up.
The fine print: I'm not telling you to dump your girlfriend because she won't let you feel her up on the subway, FRF. She's under no obligations to fulfill your rape or rape-lite fantasies. If they squick her out, they squick her out. But you're not going to have a happy and fulfilling sexual relationship with a woman—feminist or not, squicked out by simulated non-consensuality or not—whose first impulse when confronted with a run-of-the-mill, completely consensual role play scenario is to pathologize her partner, to declare him sick, to set about "curing" him, and to imply that he's not interested in consensual sex when consensual sex was precisely what he proposed. There's nothing wrong with you, FRF, nothing that needs curing or requires expunging. But your girlfriend regards you as a sicko and a rapist/potential rapist and, thanks to her, you're starting to see yourself that way too. This relationship is already over. Make it official: break up.
2
I used to think I was a feminist gay male. But then I heard feminist women talk about how porn degraded women and it should be taken away from men. What? Porn has men too! That was the end of my feminist days. I'm all for equal pay and abortion rights, but some women think feminist means dumping on men. I'm not down with that.
5
You should definitely chop her up into small pieces and eat her for dinner. Barring that, yeah, breaking up is a no-brainer.
7
Sigh. I'd be pretty hesitant to date self-described feminists. Not because I actually disagree, politically, with abortion rights or pay discrimination laws or sexual harassment laws or any of that. It's that attempting a relationship with someone who will inject politics into my every thought, impulse and desire - and then attribute them to Patriarchal Brainwashing (TM) and demand I spend some time metaphorically sitting in the corner and thinking about what I've done wrong - is just a recipe for pure misery. And pointless misery at that. Political ideologies are, for too many people, a shortcut through dealing with the messy realities of human psychology.
8
...seriously....
no...seriously....
I could swear that feminism is about female empowerment and CHOICE. I'm always wryly amused by feminists who claim to champion women but then are insufferable CUNTS (word choice purposeful) when a woman dares to make a choice that doesn't meet with their approval (be a stay at home mom, or be a submissive in sex or wear pink). The choice is belittled as only being the product of self-hatred. They have so little regard for women that they think that no self-possesed woman would EVER willingly make a choice different from theirs.
FRF, I'm hoping you're still in college and that's why you can use words like "patriarchal patterns of thought" without blushing. Find yourself a woman who is ideally suited to a good feminist man, a woman confident enough to understand that she can be your equal without degrading you into a "patient" because you don't meet her rigid norm for male behavior. We are out there, I promise!
no...seriously....
I could swear that feminism is about female empowerment and CHOICE. I'm always wryly amused by feminists who claim to champion women but then are insufferable CUNTS (word choice purposeful) when a woman dares to make a choice that doesn't meet with their approval (be a stay at home mom, or be a submissive in sex or wear pink). The choice is belittled as only being the product of self-hatred. They have so little regard for women that they think that no self-possesed woman would EVER willingly make a choice different from theirs.
FRF, I'm hoping you're still in college and that's why you can use words like "patriarchal patterns of thought" without blushing. Find yourself a woman who is ideally suited to a good feminist man, a woman confident enough to understand that she can be your equal without degrading you into a "patient" because you don't meet her rigid norm for male behavior. We are out there, I promise!
10
"I'm hoping you're still in college and that's why you can use words like "patriarchal patterns of thought" without blushing."
LOL nice
LOL nice
13
@2: If you still believe in equality of the sexes, you're still a feminist. Don't let a few crazy women ruin the label for you.
Feminism is like any virtue. You're more likely to have it if you don't throw the word around all the time.
Feminism is like any virtue. You're more likely to have it if you don't throw the word around all the time.
15
so the word "cure" was a lame word to apply to the polite sexual request of a partner, but c'mon, making fun of feminism? saying you should never date a feminist? we're all cunts who hate ourselves? isn't this a little stale? while flat out telling someone you want to cure their patriarchally-influenced sexual desires is ham fisted, i think it's legitimate to question one's desires that so obviously reflect patriarchal norms. rape fantasies - yeah, they make sense in context of a rapey world, you get to be in control of a weird, scary, ever-present threat and harness it. wouldn't it be nice if there was no rapey world to fetishize? isn't that a legit thing to ponder while not beating yourself up over having the desires to explore in the first place? telling your partner what you're going to cure him of his aberrant desire may be a sophomoric thing to do, but thinking about the reflections of patriarchal bullshit in said desires isn't that far out of line. break up cuz she's a bit imature, not cuz she's a feminist.
16
Right, right. Feminism means anti porn and anti-sex. Right.
Even though I've read no feminist treatise that suggests that. Dumb is dumb. Sexist is sexist.
Even though I've read no feminist treatise that suggests that. Dumb is dumb. Sexist is sexist.
17
@12 I'm guessing he didn't. Once someone has access to your email account, they can use all the 'forgot my password' things on your other sites. As for he email, she probably either guessed the password or the answer to the security question, or he gave her access once for a legitimate reason, never changed his password and assumed she'd forget.
19
I guess I'm in the minority, but in FRF's case I think breaking up is jumping the gun here. He's had one conversation with the girlfriend and it was all in the hypothetical. I don't think she's had enough of a chance to reconsider her position, and I don't think she's been given any reason to understand that this is really important to him.
Before you dump her, FRF, I'd say that you need to make her aware of what the stakes REALLY are. Start a new conversation, and start it like this: "I'm really interested in some aspects of BDSM, and after thinking about it for a while, I don't think there's anything anti-feminist about consensual sex that plays with power dynamics. In fact I think there's something subversive about playing with the idea of, say, rape, in a safe and totally consensual way: it confronts the erotic charge of violence and co-opts it to a peaceful and loving end." Then direct her to some of the links from the Wikipedia article on sex-positive feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positiv…) and ask her to read them.
If, during your *honest* conversation about your desires, she still insists on pathologizing you, then you can lay out the ultimatum: "I really want to explore this, and if you can't ever see yourself going there, then I'm afraid we're just not sexually compatible."
But basically, I don't think it's fair to blindside her with a dumping before she's had a chance to consider the issue in deeper manner, and before she understands how important this really is to you.
Before you dump her, FRF, I'd say that you need to make her aware of what the stakes REALLY are. Start a new conversation, and start it like this: "I'm really interested in some aspects of BDSM, and after thinking about it for a while, I don't think there's anything anti-feminist about consensual sex that plays with power dynamics. In fact I think there's something subversive about playing with the idea of, say, rape, in a safe and totally consensual way: it confronts the erotic charge of violence and co-opts it to a peaceful and loving end." Then direct her to some of the links from the Wikipedia article on sex-positive feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positiv…) and ask her to read them.
If, during your *honest* conversation about your desires, she still insists on pathologizing you, then you can lay out the ultimatum: "I really want to explore this, and if you can't ever see yourself going there, then I'm afraid we're just not sexually compatible."
But basically, I don't think it's fair to blindside her with a dumping before she's had a chance to consider the issue in deeper manner, and before she understands how important this really is to you.
20
16: Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Alice Schwarzer, Feminists Fighting Pornography (FFP), Women Against Violence in Pornography and Media (WAVPM), and Women Against Pornography (WAP) (although it's true that the last three are now defunct).
21
@15, I think its you who are jumping the gun on conclusions. I do not apply the word "cunt" to all feminists but specifically to those who are so narrow minded that any deviation from "party line" thought was labelled sexism if it came from a male and self-hatred if it came from a female.
You're regular run-of-the-mill feminist who believes in equal treatment, in properly dealing with the still huge problem of sexual assault and all those nice things I have no problem with, and I'm happy to be counted in their company. I'm even fine with the ones who go further and don't personally want to wear "feminine" clothing because of their beliefs. Peachy. It's the ones who go into instant "liberation!" mode whenever confronted with the slightest bit of dissent that I would personally dress in a pink ruffled dresses and then proceed to spank them with a copy of "Better homes and gardens".
You're regular run-of-the-mill feminist who believes in equal treatment, in properly dealing with the still huge problem of sexual assault and all those nice things I have no problem with, and I'm happy to be counted in their company. I'm even fine with the ones who go further and don't personally want to wear "feminine" clothing because of their beliefs. Peachy. It's the ones who go into instant "liberation!" mode whenever confronted with the slightest bit of dissent that I would personally dress in a pink ruffled dresses and then proceed to spank them with a copy of "Better homes and gardens".
22
IME, guys who declare themselves to be feminists are usually weasels. For that matter, women, too.
I consider myself a feminist, but I don't run around spouting off the label. It's not a lifestyle or a religion, it's just a set of ideas and beliefs.
And yeah, I like to be tied up.
I do think there's a subset of exploitative, misogynist porn, just like there's a subset of sex workers who are victims instead of happy people who chose their line of work. I'll be damned if I know how the average porn consumer is supposed to tell the difference, and expecting most men to stay away from porn is like expecting a unicorn to lay his head in your lap while you sit demurely under a tree.
I consider myself a feminist, but I don't run around spouting off the label. It's not a lifestyle or a religion, it's just a set of ideas and beliefs.
And yeah, I like to be tied up.
I do think there's a subset of exploitative, misogynist porn, just like there's a subset of sex workers who are victims instead of happy people who chose their line of work. I'll be damned if I know how the average porn consumer is supposed to tell the difference, and expecting most men to stay away from porn is like expecting a unicorn to lay his head in your lap while you sit demurely under a tree.
23
I bet Ms. Young Feminist (and perhaps Mr. Young Feminist) probably has a freshly read Catherine MacKinnon book lying around that dorm room. So in some way, let's chalk this up to the naivete that comes with discovering "radical" thought in one's late adolescence.
Also, there are plenty of self-described feminists who do not pathologize their partner's kinks as some form of latent misogyny.
But yeah, he should probably break up with her. She'll probably be getting into girls (at least temporarily) soon anyway...
Also, there are plenty of self-described feminists who do not pathologize their partner's kinks as some form of latent misogyny.
But yeah, he should probably break up with her. She'll probably be getting into girls (at least temporarily) soon anyway...
24
Letter-writer number one is dating the female version of my ex-boyfriend. Your advice was spot on; I wish someone had said it to me, although I can't swear I would've listened either.
Sigh.
Sigh.
25
Feminism attracts its share of crazies and idiots, just like any other ideal or cause. Unfortunately, as with many other ideals and causes, the craziest and stupidest always seem to be the loudest. Result: idiotic anti-sex, anti-male "feminism" that misses the point entirely, that people wind up thinking is what feminism as a whole is all about, when in reality anyone and everyone who believes in basic gender equality is a feminist, whether or not they use the label.
And just for the record, my radical feminist wife and I have a great time together, in and out of the bedroom.
And just for the record, my radical feminist wife and I have a great time together, in and out of the bedroom.
26
When feminism started out it was a political movement with two goals: #1- voting rights for women. #2 - Prohibition. Feminism has never just been about women's liberation, and it never will be. Rather, feminism is about the installation of a new set of social norms, and while these norms my be more favorable to women, they are still just as narrow and rigid as the old ones.
27
@24 Another thing about the insecure boyfriend/girlfriend- this usually means they're actually cheating on you, and overcompensating for their own shortcomings.
Every time I've come into contact with a person with this much insecurity, this has always been the case. Every. single. time.
Every time I've come into contact with a person with this much insecurity, this has always been the case. Every. single. time.
28
Nowadays, there are such things as feminist porn stars/creators: Nina Hartley, Tristan Taormino, Annie Sprinkle, et al. Plus, feminist sex toy stores, complete with full complements of BDSM gear, are popping up like mushrooms all across the country.
In all honesty, feminism is pretty polarized along these lines at the moment. You can't make a statement either way about what feminists believe
In all honesty, feminism is pretty polarized along these lines at the moment. You can't make a statement either way about what feminists believe
29
I'm a feminist--in a very strong way. I read and vote and scream feminist. I also have rape fantasies that my husband and I act out together. These aren't mutually exclusive things--sometimes being feminist is about having (or seizing) the power to enjoy yourself without shame or fear.
30
I agree with 25. There's many shades of feminism, and you'll always get the group of people who take things the wrong way... I identify as a feminist, and keep up with news related to the topic. Doesn't mean I think rape fantasies are something that need to be expunged from the psyche, or that I think all men are toads.
I've noticed, sometimes, that feminists have an issue with the sex thing. My conclusion is that they're trying to over-think something that is irrational and animalistic....
I also agree with Dan; I wouldn't want to deal with the woman. FRF's confessed fantasy was mild, and she responded with a bazooka.
I've noticed, sometimes, that feminists have an issue with the sex thing. My conclusion is that they're trying to over-think something that is irrational and animalistic....
I also agree with Dan; I wouldn't want to deal with the woman. FRF's confessed fantasy was mild, and she responded with a bazooka.
31
TERRIBLE ADVICE for #2. People are human, they don't always understand fetishes, and can be quick to judge in some cases. MOST girls would probably get freaked out by this particular one. Dan is very much on the fringe (as he often is) with his "GGG" advice here telling you to break up. You might very much regret that. Have another conversation with her.
32
@26 - Because of feminism, women can now vote, own property, gain custody of children after a divorce, use birth control, get an abortion, have protection from rape in marriage, get a divorce or prosecute a husband for domestic abuse, have protection from job discrimination and thus, HAVE jobs.
Your comments show a shockingly stupid understanding of the history of 1st wave feminism, BTW. Can you even name three feminists from that time? Can you quote any writings, pamphlets or other primary sources from that period to support your claims? Whatcha got, genius?
Yeah, you can make arguments for the movement having been socially conservative by today's standards, even backwards, but this is pretty standard across social movements; just because you may have the right idea in one area doesn't mean you aren't constrained by the dominant opinions of society in another. As a woman, I'm expected to tolerate the anti-woman sentiments expressed by all of history's great forward-thinking men and admire them in spite of it, and I'm fine with this, but it has to go both ways.
Your comments show a shockingly stupid understanding of the history of 1st wave feminism, BTW. Can you even name three feminists from that time? Can you quote any writings, pamphlets or other primary sources from that period to support your claims? Whatcha got, genius?
Yeah, you can make arguments for the movement having been socially conservative by today's standards, even backwards, but this is pretty standard across social movements; just because you may have the right idea in one area doesn't mean you aren't constrained by the dominant opinions of society in another. As a woman, I'm expected to tolerate the anti-woman sentiments expressed by all of history's great forward-thinking men and admire them in spite of it, and I'm fine with this, but it has to go both ways.
33
"It's the ones who go into instant "liberation!" mode whenever confronted with the slightest bit of dissent that I would personally dress in a pink ruffled dresses and then proceed to spank them with a copy of "Better homes and gardens."
--- Lynx
Jesus, that's hot. Are you single?
;)
--- Lynx
Jesus, that's hot. Are you single?
;)
34
@30 - "I've noticed, sometimes, that feminists have an issue with the sex thing. "
I don't think it's that all feminists have an issue with the sex thing. I suspect it's more that people who inherently have an issue with the sex thing will probably be able to find, in feminism, the particular rationalizations they've always wanted for their feelings.
I don't think it's that all feminists have an issue with the sex thing. I suspect it's more that people who inherently have an issue with the sex thing will probably be able to find, in feminism, the particular rationalizations they've always wanted for their feelings.
36
@31 - "MOST girls would probably get freaked out by this particular one."
Actually, in my experience, the vast majority of women have fantasies about being raped, too. Even the ones who have actually been raped, like myself. Even the "feminist" ones, like myself. Actually, I have fantasies about being raped AND raping. Like Dan said, it's pretty run-of-the-mill as fantasies go.
Actually, in my experience, the vast majority of women have fantasies about being raped, too. Even the ones who have actually been raped, like myself. Even the "feminist" ones, like myself. Actually, I have fantasies about being raped AND raping. Like Dan said, it's pretty run-of-the-mill as fantasies go.
37
"rape fantasies - yeah, they make sense in context of a rapey world, you get to be in control of a weird, scary, ever-present threat and harness it. wouldn't it be nice if there was no rapey world to fetishize?"
-- Erin
Oh come on. Even in the most woman-friendly, gender-egalitarian world we could practically achieve, a world in which actual rape was as rare, freakish and abhorrent as cannibalism, do you have the slightest doubt that some men and women would still have rape fantasies?
Would there still be BDSM enthusiasts? How about submissive men who fantasize about being taken rather than the takers?
I dare say the jury is pretty well in on this; being aroused by force and power (or the lack of it) is an element of human sexual psychology, stimulating some more than others.
Now, having said all that, I do agree with Siduri that FRF might be jumping the gun here. His girlfriend might have reacted so strongly for any of a long list of reasons. In this case, the political might be personal, if you take my meaning. At the very least, it's worth talking to her.
-- Erin
Oh come on. Even in the most woman-friendly, gender-egalitarian world we could practically achieve, a world in which actual rape was as rare, freakish and abhorrent as cannibalism, do you have the slightest doubt that some men and women would still have rape fantasies?
Would there still be BDSM enthusiasts? How about submissive men who fantasize about being taken rather than the takers?
I dare say the jury is pretty well in on this; being aroused by force and power (or the lack of it) is an element of human sexual psychology, stimulating some more than others.
Now, having said all that, I do agree with Siduri that FRF might be jumping the gun here. His girlfriend might have reacted so strongly for any of a long list of reasons. In this case, the political might be personal, if you take my meaning. At the very least, it's worth talking to her.
38
I am a woman. I am a feminist. I have rape fantasies. Every time some person runs around insisting that rape fantasies are somehow inherently supportive of actual rape, I want to whack them. I've been interested in bondage/force since before I was four years old; thus, I was interested in bondage/force before I was interested in SEX. When I gained a sex-drive, it merely fused to my bondage/force interest. When this happened, I bought into the belief that my sexual desires were unacceptable. I spent years trying to change what I was feeling, to like something else. It didn't work and it really damaged my self-image. Things didn't improve until I decided nothing was wrong with me or my sexual desires. When someone insists that oh, no, I was right when I was feeling terrible about myself for something I couldn't control, that I really was sick and in need of a cure, it reminds me of how awful it was for me when I actually believed such garbage.
I like who I am. Anyone who tries to make me feel disgust with traits that I've had for as long as I can remember is someone I don't want anything to do with.
I like who I am. Anyone who tries to make me feel disgust with traits that I've had for as long as I can remember is someone I don't want anything to do with.
39
"I'm really interested in some aspects of BDSM, and after thinking about it for a while, I don't think there's anything anti-feminist about consensual sex that plays with power dynamics. In fact I think there's something subversive about playing with the idea of, say, rape, in a safe and totally consensual way: it confronts the erotic charge of violence and co-opts it to a peaceful and loving end."
ahahahhahahahaha
ahahahhahahahaha
40
A lot of women have been sexually harrassed on the subway or in similar situations, so I'm pretty sure that acting it out at home would be a libido-killer for many.
Telling him she's going to "cure" him is way out of line, but I don't blame her for not being receptive to that particular fantasy.
Telling him she's going to "cure" him is way out of line, but I don't blame her for not being receptive to that particular fantasy.
41
the merits of feminism are on trial because some chick (who's probably barely into her 20s) reacted hastily, and poorly to her boyfriends power-play fantasies? Right.
it seems the first people to freak out and label feminists/feminism as sex-negative or male hating are those least likely to acknowledge that sexual expression is way more complicated then "if it feels good, do it." I think even Dan would agree with that point, as I've heard him say in the podcast before that gay men watching barebacking porn only perpetuates internalized homophobia.
Anyway, @15 wrote a better argument. Read her post instead. Sorry for the errors, btw--way long day. And I promised my feminist boyfriend I'd peg him tonight.
it seems the first people to freak out and label feminists/feminism as sex-negative or male hating are those least likely to acknowledge that sexual expression is way more complicated then "if it feels good, do it." I think even Dan would agree with that point, as I've heard him say in the podcast before that gay men watching barebacking porn only perpetuates internalized homophobia.
Anyway, @15 wrote a better argument. Read her post instead. Sorry for the errors, btw--way long day. And I promised my feminist boyfriend I'd peg him tonight.
43
If I may add a disclaimer on behalf of all anxiety-sufferers: anxiety disorders do not, in themselves, change someone's personality like DAWWP describes. DAWWP seems to attribute his girlfriend's problems to her GAD, when (in my non-professional, but anxiety-disorder-ridden opinion) it seems clear that something else is going on there. I know it's a moot point since DAWWP already broke up with her; I only hope that people here don't come away with the impression that anxiety makes you distrustful and dump-worthy. This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood neurotic. Thank you.
44
@40 I 100% agree with you. I've had a guy pull his dick out and start jacking off staring at me on the train, I've had a guy box me into a corner on the train asking me for a kiss, and just yesterday on the subway some guy made a comment about my tits, followed me into my train car when I walked away from him, and then sat down and started filming me with his phone. This shit is disgusting, infuriating, degrading, and makes me feel completely fucking helpless. "Cure" might not have been the best term for FRF's gf to use, but every woman who has had to put up with this innocuous but completely skeevy behavior from strange men in a public setting has the right to bristle when asked to indulge in that same behavior as a kink. Surprise surprise, but a lot of feminists don't like to be in situations where they feel degraded and helpless, and a GGG feminist girlfriend who has never been asked to indulge in a kink like that before (and who doesn't have that kink herself) probably needs more than one conversation before the big break up.
45
15: "while flat out telling someone you want to cure their patriarchally-influenced sexual desires is ham fisted, i think it's legitimate to question one's desires that so obviously reflect patriarchal norms. "
Patriarchal norms. ha ha ha
People still say stupid shit like that, without a wry smile? Fucking hilarious. You guys are like those Sunday morning preachers. Seriously. The shit that comes out of your mouth is as bad as those Jebus morons. Keep talking, though. I would not want to lose this entertainment; ever since I left Ann Arbor, I don't get a good supply of that particular giggle juice.
Patriarchal norms. ha ha ha
People still say stupid shit like that, without a wry smile? Fucking hilarious. You guys are like those Sunday morning preachers. Seriously. The shit that comes out of your mouth is as bad as those Jebus morons. Keep talking, though. I would not want to lose this entertainment; ever since I left Ann Arbor, I don't get a good supply of that particular giggle juice.
48
I'm agreeing with #40 as well. 100% of women have a history of being sexually harassed. I have some rape fantasies of my own and I am accepting of other people's fetishes, but with this one I honestly do not think I'd be able to give a super-positive response right off the bat. Because I've been groped on public transportation multiple times, and each time it made me feel filthy, ashamed and like absolute shit. The first time it happened was when I was 15 and had never had anyone touch my boobs before.
Sure, your girlfriend's response was pretty reactionary and judging. But maybe you two can find some common ground. Talk to her about how what you want to do with her would be completely consensual, and if she wants to talk about why the idea disturbs her, try to steer her from feminist dogma to her own personal experiences. Try and understand why this idea might freak a woman the fuck out.
Ask her if maybe she would consider flipping the script - ask her how she would feel if she got to grope you "against your will" first, or if the groping scenario turned into an S&M scene of her "punishing" you for violating her autonomy. There are a lot of ways this fantasy could be played out. Make it really really clear that there would be a safe-word and that you are willing to work hard to make this pleasurable and fun and filthy for her too.
Good luck, and don't follow Dan's advice. He may be a cool guy but he is still a guy - neither of you really get what her knee-jerk response is all about. It's the fact that most of us are already aware of this particular male fantasy, and we've had it acted out upon us against our will.
Sure, your girlfriend's response was pretty reactionary and judging. But maybe you two can find some common ground. Talk to her about how what you want to do with her would be completely consensual, and if she wants to talk about why the idea disturbs her, try to steer her from feminist dogma to her own personal experiences. Try and understand why this idea might freak a woman the fuck out.
Ask her if maybe she would consider flipping the script - ask her how she would feel if she got to grope you "against your will" first, or if the groping scenario turned into an S&M scene of her "punishing" you for violating her autonomy. There are a lot of ways this fantasy could be played out. Make it really really clear that there would be a safe-word and that you are willing to work hard to make this pleasurable and fun and filthy for her too.
Good luck, and don't follow Dan's advice. He may be a cool guy but he is still a guy - neither of you really get what her knee-jerk response is all about. It's the fact that most of us are already aware of this particular male fantasy, and we've had it acted out upon us against our will.
49
Feminism is a movement to end sexism and sexist oppression...It is not the same thing as the Women's Liberation Movement, thought it certainly encompasses many of the WLM's goals. Sarah Palin is certainly a great Women's Lib-er, but she makes a lousy feminist!
If FRF's girlfriend is making himself feel bad about the erotic potential of his own imagination she is not being very anti-sexist, since suppressing the power of the erotic is one of the principle strategies of patriarchy. Degrading bodies for what they think is hot is why guys get beat up for liking cock and girls are allowed to like anything sexual at all!
I agree entire with Dan. Consensual sex is what he was asking for, and he should go out and find a girl with a more progressive grasp of the cause...even if he can't find a girl who wants to be sort-of-raped (not really).
It's really egregious what she did to him. Not just because she pathologized his kink, but also because she made a colonialist (yes, we can go there) assumption about how other women want their bodies to be treated. Like the lot of Laura Bush acolytes who signed onto a 9 year (and counting) war to go liberate Afghan women from the burka, she just assumed that her values reigned supreme and needed to be generalized.
The good feminists rally against those kind of colonial proscriptions for other peoples' bodies, embodied by the "platinum rule" (which would be a good value for sloggers to pick up): "Treat people the way THEY WANT to be treated." FRF, should go find a kinky submissive girl. And when he finds her he can have all the consensual rape-play kinky sex he wants and still be part of the winning team.
If FRF's girlfriend is making himself feel bad about the erotic potential of his own imagination she is not being very anti-sexist, since suppressing the power of the erotic is one of the principle strategies of patriarchy. Degrading bodies for what they think is hot is why guys get beat up for liking cock and girls are allowed to like anything sexual at all!
I agree entire with Dan. Consensual sex is what he was asking for, and he should go out and find a girl with a more progressive grasp of the cause...even if he can't find a girl who wants to be sort-of-raped (not really).
It's really egregious what she did to him. Not just because she pathologized his kink, but also because she made a colonialist (yes, we can go there) assumption about how other women want their bodies to be treated. Like the lot of Laura Bush acolytes who signed onto a 9 year (and counting) war to go liberate Afghan women from the burka, she just assumed that her values reigned supreme and needed to be generalized.
The good feminists rally against those kind of colonial proscriptions for other peoples' bodies, embodied by the "platinum rule" (which would be a good value for sloggers to pick up): "Treat people the way THEY WANT to be treated." FRF, should go find a kinky submissive girl. And when he finds her he can have all the consensual rape-play kinky sex he wants and still be part of the winning team.
50
Good response 48, but I think your suggestion assumes that FRF can just flip a switch and become a sexual submissive. Nothing seems to indicate that to be the case.
And no one, including Dan, suggests that she should be reprimanded for not being able to flip a switch and become the sexual submissive he's looking for. She committed some serious sexual violence against him, and if she doesn't show some remorse for that, I think its a break-up-able offense. We wouldn't tell any woman to stay in relationship with a man hell bent on making her feel bad about her sexuality!
Let's play a reversal game and pretend it was her fetish to punish him for being a dirty boy (or whatever). He likes dirty sex and she's going to embarrass and degrade him for it cause it gets her off. Maybe he reacts negatively because: "100% of men have had their sexual interests ridiculed and criticized by their partners. I have some humiliation fantasies of my own and I am accepting of other people's fetishes, but with this one I honestly do not think I'd be able to give a super-positive response right off the bat. Because I've had my sexual desires pathologized and put down by partners I felt I could trust with my vulnerabilities multiple times, and each time it made me feel filthy, ashamed and like absolute shit."
Again, he asked her to pretend sexual violence, and she committed it.
And no one, including Dan, suggests that she should be reprimanded for not being able to flip a switch and become the sexual submissive he's looking for. She committed some serious sexual violence against him, and if she doesn't show some remorse for that, I think its a break-up-able offense. We wouldn't tell any woman to stay in relationship with a man hell bent on making her feel bad about her sexuality!
Let's play a reversal game and pretend it was her fetish to punish him for being a dirty boy (or whatever). He likes dirty sex and she's going to embarrass and degrade him for it cause it gets her off. Maybe he reacts negatively because: "100% of men have had their sexual interests ridiculed and criticized by their partners. I have some humiliation fantasies of my own and I am accepting of other people's fetishes, but with this one I honestly do not think I'd be able to give a super-positive response right off the bat. Because I've had my sexual desires pathologized and put down by partners I felt I could trust with my vulnerabilities multiple times, and each time it made me feel filthy, ashamed and like absolute shit."
Again, he asked her to pretend sexual violence, and she committed it.
51
@12 they could've been using the same computer at some point and the passwords got saved. Plus many people use one login-password combination for everything.
And the second letter is the reason why in countries like mine people simply laugh when someone even mentions equality.
And the second letter is the reason why in countries like mine people simply laugh when someone even mentions equality.
52
Feminists like that give women a bad name.
At this point the word 'feminist' doesn't really seem to mean anything. But if you're wearing it like a religion--and thus using it to impose your own values or taboos on others--you're doing it wrong.
At this point the word 'feminist' doesn't really seem to mean anything. But if you're wearing it like a religion--and thus using it to impose your own values or taboos on others--you're doing it wrong.
53
Lukejoe, I definitely see where you're coming from. Maybe it's because I'm not part of the "scene" but both I and the partners I've done roleplay stuff with tend to see it not as a sexual identity, but as something you can do with a partner you really trust and an opportunity to push boundaries on both sides in general. So making a "first you, then me" type of deal has been a pretty common thing - it's always fun to switch it up and it does increase trust on both sides. This has often been a path to me realizing that the reason guys want stuff that sounds creepy or degrading at first is that it's simply good dirty fun, and not threatening at all :)
The reason why I suggested the things I did is partly that it sounds like this is the first time the guy's ever mentioned this to a woman, and he frankly went about it like a bull in a china shop. That is not an excuse for his girlfriend's behavior, and I agree that it could be classed as emotional violence.
But it is a reason for him to at least think about why his fetish could be perceived as very disturbing, and to reconsider how he should go about presenting it in the future. Taking a look at your counterexample, I think that becomes obvious - it's another fetish that gains its power from being situated in an absolute emotional minefield.
So if a woman had that fetish and got that reaction from a boyfriend, then yes, I would probably tell her "Try and understand this reaction in the context of his other, similar, but nonconsensual experiences and see why it is tough for him to trust you when you want to roleplay something that has always been a major betrayal of his trust before."
Partners do have a responsibility not to ridicule or pathologize their partners' fetishes, but if the fetishists don't learn how to present their desires in a way that's not going to dredge up traumatic shit from somebody's past... those fetishes ain't getting realized.
This is at the very least an opportunity for the letter writer to learn something about how the taboo nature of his fetish makes it hot for him, but disturbing for others. Maybe it is not going to be possible for the two of them to talk this out, but he should at least try to talk to her about it, just as practice for all of the knee-jerk reactions he will get to this desire in the future.
More...
The reason why I suggested the things I did is partly that it sounds like this is the first time the guy's ever mentioned this to a woman, and he frankly went about it like a bull in a china shop. That is not an excuse for his girlfriend's behavior, and I agree that it could be classed as emotional violence.
But it is a reason for him to at least think about why his fetish could be perceived as very disturbing, and to reconsider how he should go about presenting it in the future. Taking a look at your counterexample, I think that becomes obvious - it's another fetish that gains its power from being situated in an absolute emotional minefield.
So if a woman had that fetish and got that reaction from a boyfriend, then yes, I would probably tell her "Try and understand this reaction in the context of his other, similar, but nonconsensual experiences and see why it is tough for him to trust you when you want to roleplay something that has always been a major betrayal of his trust before."
Partners do have a responsibility not to ridicule or pathologize their partners' fetishes, but if the fetishists don't learn how to present their desires in a way that's not going to dredge up traumatic shit from somebody's past... those fetishes ain't getting realized.
This is at the very least an opportunity for the letter writer to learn something about how the taboo nature of his fetish makes it hot for him, but disturbing for others. Maybe it is not going to be possible for the two of them to talk this out, but he should at least try to talk to her about it, just as practice for all of the knee-jerk reactions he will get to this desire in the future.
54
Also, though I think you chose a decent example, it is very difficult for me to think of unhealthy relationship dynamics being somehow equivalent to being an underage girl getting her breasts felt up on the bus in front of God and everybody. I am not lighting the torch for the Trauma Olympics here, but that is probably an example of the types of equivalencies the letter writer should try NOT to make when he talks to women about his fetish.
55
Another feminist here who enjoys rape fantasies, thinks they're hot, and wouldn't object if a boyfriend brought them up. It's the wrongness and transgressiveness of the fantasies that turns people on, and most people are easily able to separate their freaky sex fantasies from real life.
@2, you are a feminist -- just one who doesn't agree with some of the ideas out there in feminism. Having independent thoughts is a sign of an intelligent person, and no one could agree with all the ideas out there in feminism, anyway. Don't let some dumb lady tell you that you're not entitled to your own feminist viewpoint because you can't understand womyn's pain, or some such.
@2, you are a feminist -- just one who doesn't agree with some of the ideas out there in feminism. Having independent thoughts is a sign of an intelligent person, and no one could agree with all the ideas out there in feminism, anyway. Don't let some dumb lady tell you that you're not entitled to your own feminist viewpoint because you can't understand womyn's pain, or some such.
56
I honestly think the poor guy took entirely the wrong approach by trying to "test the waters" with subway groping fantasies. I mean...does anyone really fantasize about that? It seems to me that rape fantasies exist because they are so very, very removed from the reality of rape, because we fetishize and romanticize an illusion of rape, one that even involves a high degree of "forced" female pleasure (take a look at old bodice-ripper novels or read "My Secret Garden" if you don't believe me). But subway groping? As far as I know, we don't have any illusion that women get off on that; it's all about power and degradation.
For this reason, I can honestly say that I would have a harder time accepting a boyfriend with subway groping fantasies than a boyfriend with straight-up rape fantasies.
For this reason, I can honestly say that I would have a harder time accepting a boyfriend with subway groping fantasies than a boyfriend with straight-up rape fantasies.
57
^ Yup. It's sexy to think "I wish that somebody would force me to do all these filthy things I fantasize about." It might even be sexy to think, "I wish that hot guy on the subway would come over and tell me, 'Get off the train with me right now you little slut, I'm going to do filthy things to you'"*. But I wonder if many women really do think, "God that guy is hot. I wish he would come over, leer at me, and give my breasts a good squeeze."
*In fact, I feel sort of... inspired...
*In fact, I feel sort of... inspired...
58
Hey Hey Hey HEY!!
Do NOT paint all feminists with the same brush.
Feminist, at its heart, means someone who wants equality for women.
The feminists y'all don't like are sex-NEGATIVE feminists. So lets all turn to our sex-POSITIVE feminist friends and heartily thank them for all the magical wonderful things they do.
Do NOT paint all feminists with the same brush.
Feminist, at its heart, means someone who wants equality for women.
The feminists y'all don't like are sex-NEGATIVE feminists. So lets all turn to our sex-POSITIVE feminist friends and heartily thank them for all the magical wonderful things they do.
59
Oh, and what's this about being groped on public transportation and curling into a little ball of "I don't know what to do?"
If some asshole starts filming you with their phone, film them right the fuck back, and say you'll hand it into the police for harrassment. Tell them to leave you the fuck alone. Take a self defence course, so you don't feel powerless like that. The more we fight back, the less they see us as easy targets.
If some asshole starts filming you with their phone, film them right the fuck back, and say you'll hand it into the police for harrassment. Tell them to leave you the fuck alone. Take a self defence course, so you don't feel powerless like that. The more we fight back, the less they see us as easy targets.
60
I'm a feminist -- I think. According to feminist blogs (Feministe, I'm looking at you) I'm a horrible sexist, because I'm really quite okay with men being horny and crass, and sometimes I'm just as horny and crass myself. I'm the kind of person who doesn't think men should be weaker, but rather women should be stronger. And I wouldn't try to "cure" a mild kink.
Always been ambivalent about the rape fantasy stuff, because the only guy I knew who liked that was actually a mean bastard and I never trusted him to not be an actual rapist. It might be different if a long-term boyfriend -- one whom I had no reason to fear -- brought it up.
The other thing: why does Dan recommend so much breaking up? It's not all it's cracked up to be. I broke up with the last boy for a good reason, and have no regrets, and even so I'm in trouble because my hindbrain freaks out every time I go on a date -- "THAT'S NOT YOUR BOYFRIEND. NO SEX ALLOWED." It's easy to meet a new person but it's NOT easy to make a connection with a new person.
Always been ambivalent about the rape fantasy stuff, because the only guy I knew who liked that was actually a mean bastard and I never trusted him to not be an actual rapist. It might be different if a long-term boyfriend -- one whom I had no reason to fear -- brought it up.
The other thing: why does Dan recommend so much breaking up? It's not all it's cracked up to be. I broke up with the last boy for a good reason, and have no regrets, and even so I'm in trouble because my hindbrain freaks out every time I go on a date -- "THAT'S NOT YOUR BOYFRIEND. NO SEX ALLOWED." It's easy to meet a new person but it's NOT easy to make a connection with a new person.
61
I'm a queer, butch, kinky, power-playing, rape-fantasy fulfilling, porn watching feminist, and I give a damn!
:)
:)
62
@62-
"Always been ambivalent about the rape fantasy stuff, because the only guy I knew who liked that was actually a mean bastard and I never trusted him to not be an actual rapist."
This is why I wish Dan wouldn't keep treating male rapist fantasies as being totally equal to women's rape victim fantasies. While I'm quite sure that there are plenty of good men around who have harmless rapist fantasies that could be fun for all involved if they're realized in a safe way, it is also true that REAL rapists and predators start out by...guess what, FANTASIZING. So a little freak-out on a part of a woman who hears this from her boyfriend is...maybe understandable? Maybe not? Impossible to tell from just a letter, at any rate.
"Always been ambivalent about the rape fantasy stuff, because the only guy I knew who liked that was actually a mean bastard and I never trusted him to not be an actual rapist."
This is why I wish Dan wouldn't keep treating male rapist fantasies as being totally equal to women's rape victim fantasies. While I'm quite sure that there are plenty of good men around who have harmless rapist fantasies that could be fun for all involved if they're realized in a safe way, it is also true that REAL rapists and predators start out by...guess what, FANTASIZING. So a little freak-out on a part of a woman who hears this from her boyfriend is...maybe understandable? Maybe not? Impossible to tell from just a letter, at any rate.
63
reminds me of one of my favorite jokes:
Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: "Thats not funny!"
Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: "Thats not funny!"
66
Hey everybody, FRF here in the digital flesh.
I think Dan dropped the ball on this one. I wasn't looking for relationship advice so much as I was looking for some sort of reflection on an interesting issue related to sexuality which I'd not been able to find (what I felt was a) satisfactory answer to. I got a lot more of that from the commenters--certain among them in particular.
First, I think the "two simply words" advice is excessive. Maybe Dan has some sort of fundamental insight which I don't because he reads thousands of letters about this shit, but I don't think that I'll be unable to have a satisfied sex life with this girl even if I were to just not talk about that fantasy ever again. The fantasy I described is not something which I feel is essential for me to be happy, though it is something I would probably enjoy. Maybe it would be different if we were married and committed to monogamy for the rest of time and we were unable to talk it out, but that's not the case. I hope other people don't take Dan's advice to heart and think that being GGG the first time when confronted with a potentially traumatic subject like this is an unconditional requirement for being sexually satisfied.
I find the prospect that sexual violence was committed against me an interesting idea, though I am unsure as to whether I agree. I think two things really need to be kept in mind:
1. We were talking hypothetically--and I mean literally hypothetically, not like 'hypothetically'-but-we-both-know-it's-not-really-hypothetical. She did not think that I was actually proposing this. I don't think that, if I had actually proposed it, she would have pathologized it so much. This, however, serves as only a marginally legitimate excuse.
2. If this does qualify as sexual violence I think that it is a different category of sexual violence than, say, rape, which would be a more legitimate reason for immediately terminating a relationship or damning someone. If pathologizing your partner's kink is a form of sexual violence then it is not a type of violence that people are socialized to be aware of. As such, I think that immediately damning someone for it before the opportunity is even taken to bring it to their attention is unreasonable.
3. One valuable thing some of the commenters have noted is that I probably sent out feelers in a less-than-sensitive way. I am pretty sure the idea of simulating public molestation hit home in a way simulated rape might not have for her, though I think having an initially negative reaction to either one is excusable. What would be less excusable is continuing to react so negatively to it after having discussed it further.
Finally, I find the discussions of feminism(s) that this has spawned most interesting. I am always glad to serve as a source of lulz for people who think that being concerned with this sort of thing is funny (and you don't even have to be a college student to think and talk about shit like patriarchy! Just ask Charlie Mudede. :]), but the reason why I used the word "feminist" 5 times or whatever in my letter to Dan is because I owe much of my awareness to these sorts of issues to feminist writings and thinkers, as does my girlfriend. Does this mean all feminism, feminists, or even my girlfriend, are necessarily sex-negative. Absolutely not. In this case it just means that my girlfriend and I try particularly hard to be conscious of the sexual politics involved in, well, almost any situation. Even if sometimes we realize that our initial concerns were misplaced, we both are committed to re-evaluating them and trying to get it right. I'd prefer to have occasionally misplaced concerns (which can be subsequently worked through) than lack an awareness of concern for any of them.
What is the advice I would give other people in a similar situation? Unlike Dan, I'd advocate for something similar to what siduri (#19) advocates for: being honest and straightforward about it is probably the best idea and can be subversive of the power dynamics that often play out in relationships in the way that performing sex play based on power dynamics can possibly be subversive of the dynamics behind sexual violence. Usually I try very hard to be as honest as possible, but in this case I wasn't. Now I'll do so and talk to her about it and I won't be using the two simple words that many of you have advised me to do--unless, of course, /unlike every other situation like this that I've encountered with her/ being straightforward and honest does not foster empathy, understanding, and straightforwardness in kind.
Thanks to everyone who put genuine thought into your responses and comments!
More...
I think Dan dropped the ball on this one. I wasn't looking for relationship advice so much as I was looking for some sort of reflection on an interesting issue related to sexuality which I'd not been able to find (what I felt was a) satisfactory answer to. I got a lot more of that from the commenters--certain among them in particular.
First, I think the "two simply words" advice is excessive. Maybe Dan has some sort of fundamental insight which I don't because he reads thousands of letters about this shit, but I don't think that I'll be unable to have a satisfied sex life with this girl even if I were to just not talk about that fantasy ever again. The fantasy I described is not something which I feel is essential for me to be happy, though it is something I would probably enjoy. Maybe it would be different if we were married and committed to monogamy for the rest of time and we were unable to talk it out, but that's not the case. I hope other people don't take Dan's advice to heart and think that being GGG the first time when confronted with a potentially traumatic subject like this is an unconditional requirement for being sexually satisfied.
I find the prospect that sexual violence was committed against me an interesting idea, though I am unsure as to whether I agree. I think two things really need to be kept in mind:
1. We were talking hypothetically--and I mean literally hypothetically, not like 'hypothetically'-but-we-both-know-it's-not-really-hypothetical. She did not think that I was actually proposing this. I don't think that, if I had actually proposed it, she would have pathologized it so much. This, however, serves as only a marginally legitimate excuse.
2. If this does qualify as sexual violence I think that it is a different category of sexual violence than, say, rape, which would be a more legitimate reason for immediately terminating a relationship or damning someone. If pathologizing your partner's kink is a form of sexual violence then it is not a type of violence that people are socialized to be aware of. As such, I think that immediately damning someone for it before the opportunity is even taken to bring it to their attention is unreasonable.
3. One valuable thing some of the commenters have noted is that I probably sent out feelers in a less-than-sensitive way. I am pretty sure the idea of simulating public molestation hit home in a way simulated rape might not have for her, though I think having an initially negative reaction to either one is excusable. What would be less excusable is continuing to react so negatively to it after having discussed it further.
Finally, I find the discussions of feminism(s) that this has spawned most interesting. I am always glad to serve as a source of lulz for people who think that being concerned with this sort of thing is funny (and you don't even have to be a college student to think and talk about shit like patriarchy! Just ask Charlie Mudede. :]), but the reason why I used the word "feminist" 5 times or whatever in my letter to Dan is because I owe much of my awareness to these sorts of issues to feminist writings and thinkers, as does my girlfriend. Does this mean all feminism, feminists, or even my girlfriend, are necessarily sex-negative. Absolutely not. In this case it just means that my girlfriend and I try particularly hard to be conscious of the sexual politics involved in, well, almost any situation. Even if sometimes we realize that our initial concerns were misplaced, we both are committed to re-evaluating them and trying to get it right. I'd prefer to have occasionally misplaced concerns (which can be subsequently worked through) than lack an awareness of concern for any of them.
What is the advice I would give other people in a similar situation? Unlike Dan, I'd advocate for something similar to what siduri (#19) advocates for: being honest and straightforward about it is probably the best idea and can be subversive of the power dynamics that often play out in relationships in the way that performing sex play based on power dynamics can possibly be subversive of the dynamics behind sexual violence. Usually I try very hard to be as honest as possible, but in this case I wasn't. Now I'll do so and talk to her about it and I won't be using the two simple words that many of you have advised me to do--unless, of course, /unlike every other situation like this that I've encountered with her/ being straightforward and honest does not foster empathy, understanding, and straightforwardness in kind.
Thanks to everyone who put genuine thought into your responses and comments!
67
FRF - Glad you're here! You sound extremely thoughtful, informed on feminist issues AND you've got a rape kink! I would love to hear what you have to say on the subject of your particular fantasies and what you think they represent to you. Power play/non consent play is something that's extremely fascinating to me.
68
Hmmm sorry but between @63 and @64, the first joke clearly wins.
All this thread has gotten me to thinking of a weird analogy that may apply here. Where I live in Europe, there's a taboo against being explicitly patriotic, because we've got quite a history with fascism. If you are patriotic, you are looked on with suspicion of harboring fascist tendencies or beliefs. The result is that in fact there IS a higher concentration of fascists amongst the explicitly patriotic, because few people are willing to tolerate the high social cost of being associated to those folks just to be patriotic. People look at me funny because I have a couple of little flags at work.
Enter the analogy with feminism. Feminists are, often unfairly, portrayed as hysterical, intolerant, rigid, sex-hating, man-hating and humorless. A male feminist is associated to total submission and general pussy-whipping. This means that there's a high social cost for someone who wants to identify as a feminist. The result may be that only (or especially) those feminists with VERY strong feelings about the subject self-identify. Find an extremist on anything at all, and you'll find someone who is rigid, intolerant, usually hates something or someone a great deal, and lacks a sense of humor. The thing they are extremist about is secondary. So people look at self-identified feminists and become even less inclined to identify as such, even when in many cases their actual core beliefs coincide.
PS: Because people are quick to take offense, I AM NOT saying that all self-identified feminists have those negative qualities by any means, but that social cost of the label leads to a greater concentration of those things in the group, which is unfortunate.
All this thread has gotten me to thinking of a weird analogy that may apply here. Where I live in Europe, there's a taboo against being explicitly patriotic, because we've got quite a history with fascism. If you are patriotic, you are looked on with suspicion of harboring fascist tendencies or beliefs. The result is that in fact there IS a higher concentration of fascists amongst the explicitly patriotic, because few people are willing to tolerate the high social cost of being associated to those folks just to be patriotic. People look at me funny because I have a couple of little flags at work.
Enter the analogy with feminism. Feminists are, often unfairly, portrayed as hysterical, intolerant, rigid, sex-hating, man-hating and humorless. A male feminist is associated to total submission and general pussy-whipping. This means that there's a high social cost for someone who wants to identify as a feminist. The result may be that only (or especially) those feminists with VERY strong feelings about the subject self-identify. Find an extremist on anything at all, and you'll find someone who is rigid, intolerant, usually hates something or someone a great deal, and lacks a sense of humor. The thing they are extremist about is secondary. So people look at self-identified feminists and become even less inclined to identify as such, even when in many cases their actual core beliefs coincide.
PS: Because people are quick to take offense, I AM NOT saying that all self-identified feminists have those negative qualities by any means, but that social cost of the label leads to a greater concentration of those things in the group, which is unfortunate.
69
@68 - *shrug* I only mentioned it because I have a friend who likes to tell both of those in conjunction. The original punchline is also supposed to be, "So men can remember them," but this feminist is *not* a man-hater, so I don't tell it that way. Still, it does ruin the rhythm, doesn't it?
70
68 - That's an interesting analysis, but my thoughts on the matter are a little different:
When it comes to social movements, there are always two stages: the movement, and the backlash. The backlash seeks to paint the movement in sinister terms, usually based on defining it by the group's most radical/crazy/angry/hateful members. These types of members may be few and far between at first, but the more the backlash campaign has success, the more of them you get. Why? Because if the popular opinion of feminism is that it's about man-hating, more and more actual man-haters will go, "Oh, I must be a feminist!"
I happen to be an anarchist and I see this phenomenon big time in our movement's circles. Classical anarchism is not about eliminating government, but eliminating hierarchy...however, the backlash long ago lead to the popular societal definition being chaos, bomb-hurling, assassinations, a lot of crazy shit, so as a result, the crazies started to call themselves "anarchists."
When it comes to social movements, there are always two stages: the movement, and the backlash. The backlash seeks to paint the movement in sinister terms, usually based on defining it by the group's most radical/crazy/angry/hateful members. These types of members may be few and far between at first, but the more the backlash campaign has success, the more of them you get. Why? Because if the popular opinion of feminism is that it's about man-hating, more and more actual man-haters will go, "Oh, I must be a feminist!"
I happen to be an anarchist and I see this phenomenon big time in our movement's circles. Classical anarchism is not about eliminating government, but eliminating hierarchy...however, the backlash long ago lead to the popular societal definition being chaos, bomb-hurling, assassinations, a lot of crazy shit, so as a result, the crazies started to call themselves "anarchists."
71
Feminism is a red herring; it has nothing to do with the problem presented in this relationship. Forget about it.
Here's the real issue: Person initiates discussion of person's sexual desires with partner. Partner reacts by pathologizing person's sexual desires and offering to "cure" those desires. In so doing, partner reveals partnerself as being a sexual adversary fronting as a partner. Person should dump faux-partner/adversary and find someone who will help (i.e. partner with) person to live a healthy, mutually rewarding and enjoyable sex life.
Here's the real issue: Person initiates discussion of person's sexual desires with partner. Partner reacts by pathologizing person's sexual desires and offering to "cure" those desires. In so doing, partner reveals partnerself as being a sexual adversary fronting as a partner. Person should dump faux-partner/adversary and find someone who will help (i.e. partner with) person to live a healthy, mutually rewarding and enjoyable sex life.
72
These comments are very telling. "I support feminism UNTIL...it ruins my buzz/joke/hard-on." Guess what? You don't get to decide what is appropriate or funny or unoffensive for other women. You don't get to belittle them or question their sanity when they speak up. That's misogyny.
73
@59 Come on, let's be real: if I had done what I had wanted to do, which was to get in the guy's face with my pepper spray and tell him he was never going to be able to watch the video because I was about to burn his fucking eyes out, I would've made the situation more potentially dangerous for myself. Taking a personal defense class is not going to change the fact that men feel like they have the right to do shit like that to any woman who walks past them. And whether or not I could defend myself against a six foot tall man, that doesn't change the fact that the situation is degrading and disempowering. The "RAWR I'm empowered!" attitude doesn't hold much water in the real world.
Public sexual harassment is a cultural attitude and it's not going to be changed by women, it has to be changed by men. It would be nice if men like Dan and FRF, who are potentially allies of women, could understand that they DON'T understand what kind of bullshit women have to put up with from men on a regular and consistent basis. Just like straights don't understand what gays have to put up with, or whites don't understand what minorities have to put up with.
@71 I don't think feminism is a red herring here. FRF's girlfriend's pathologization of his kink seemed like a knee jerk reaction, one based on her view of male/female power dynamics. She deserves more than one conversation before being written off as an adversary.
Public sexual harassment is a cultural attitude and it's not going to be changed by women, it has to be changed by men. It would be nice if men like Dan and FRF, who are potentially allies of women, could understand that they DON'T understand what kind of bullshit women have to put up with from men on a regular and consistent basis. Just like straights don't understand what gays have to put up with, or whites don't understand what minorities have to put up with.
@71 I don't think feminism is a red herring here. FRF's girlfriend's pathologization of his kink seemed like a knee jerk reaction, one based on her view of male/female power dynamics. She deserves more than one conversation before being written off as an adversary.
74
@73 What, a comment on slog telling you to stand up for yourself doesn't change the decades of ingrained teaching that women should never do that? Well, shit.
Somehow I think @59 is the same kind of person that says women who don't scream and attack their rapists and let the world and authorities immediately know they've been assaulted are partially at fault for it happening.
Somehow I think @59 is the same kind of person that says women who don't scream and attack their rapists and let the world and authorities immediately know they've been assaulted are partially at fault for it happening.
75
FRF - it's great to see a guy so aware/educated about feminism. seriously. i'm a kinky feminist with rape fantasies (on both ends of the power spectrum) and i've been able to explore these fantasies with my boyfriend ONLY because he's a serious feminist ally who "gets" that misogyny is a big deal. and even so, it did freak me out early on at times that he was able to get so into it despite the obviously unfair fact that i had requested the act! it's *tough* negotiating around these issues and it can bring up a lot of anxiety for everyone. but it seems like you're thoughtful and communicative enough that you'll do fine.
76
FNF - if the both of you always consider the sexual politics of a situation, and you throw out a situation to her that is supposedly purely hypothetical and which you do not believe she interpreted as an actual interest of yours personally, and is clearly a power-imbalance minefield, of course you are going to get the response you got, right? I think you are right if you make it clear it's a personal interest of yours you are going to get a different response. I wish you luck.
Still, it is a pretty standard lesson for people to react gently to the "hypothetical" fetishes a partner might bring up. They usually are hypothetical only insofar as they are a milder version of what their actual fetish is, as here. I'm sure you'd win a lot of points by mentioning that women are conditioned to be repulsed by any remotely aberrant sexual fantasy and so in the interest of feminists everywhere she should absolutely do it. Hm. Yeah.
Still, it is a pretty standard lesson for people to react gently to the "hypothetical" fetishes a partner might bring up. They usually are hypothetical only insofar as they are a milder version of what their actual fetish is, as here. I'm sure you'd win a lot of points by mentioning that women are conditioned to be repulsed by any remotely aberrant sexual fantasy and so in the interest of feminists everywhere she should absolutely do it. Hm. Yeah.
77
@72 - Um...what?
Seriously...what?
I kinda sorta thought that feminism meant equality, and I have this funny idea that equality means we should all receive equal amounts of criticism, argument, etc.
As for your comments at 74, c'mon. There's a big, big difference between advocating that women stand up for themselves - even if it shows a bit of a lack of real-world understanding - and victim blaming. Honestly.
Seriously...what?
I kinda sorta thought that feminism meant equality, and I have this funny idea that equality means we should all receive equal amounts of criticism, argument, etc.
As for your comments at 74, c'mon. There's a big, big difference between advocating that women stand up for themselves - even if it shows a bit of a lack of real-world understanding - and victim blaming. Honestly.
78
@62: my point exactly. Rape is something a woman has every reason to want to avoid, so the standard for rapist fantasies should be a little higher. A girlfriend is being unfair if she freaks out at "Honey, I want to kiss your feet," or "Honey, I want to dress you up like Minnie Mouse" but she might well be cautious about "Honey, I want to pretend I'm raping you." That's something that takes a pretty high degree of trust, and when you're playing the role of the "attacker" you're the one who has to earn trust.
On the other hand: it really sounds like FRF is not a physical threat to her, and she knows him well enough to know that. It's worth telling her (be prepared for LOTS of conversation) that this is your thing. If she gets it -- that you want to act out a rape fantasy but you're not a physical threat to her -- you can talk about easing into it. If she doesn't get it, your relationship will probably be over whether you like it or not.
And if she's not capable of understanding the difference between fantasy and reality, then you probably don't want her around anyhow. Because you will ALWAYS have fantasies. Even if they're not this particular rape fantasy, even if they're not even sexual, we all have wish-fulfilling fantasies, and someone who objects to wishing is a pretty grim companion.
@72 and @73: precisely my beef with feminists. Perhaps I can't "understand" what someone else is going through, their personal reality. But I can still make valid observations about other people -- even people of other races, genders, and sexual orientations. We all observe and think about each other. If men are ignorant about what it's like to be a woman, that means we should inform them -- more information is always good -- but it doesn't mean they're automatically wrong about everything. I wouldn't want to be in the company of men so tentative that they don't dare form opinions about women.
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On the other hand: it really sounds like FRF is not a physical threat to her, and she knows him well enough to know that. It's worth telling her (be prepared for LOTS of conversation) that this is your thing. If she gets it -- that you want to act out a rape fantasy but you're not a physical threat to her -- you can talk about easing into it. If she doesn't get it, your relationship will probably be over whether you like it or not.
And if she's not capable of understanding the difference between fantasy and reality, then you probably don't want her around anyhow. Because you will ALWAYS have fantasies. Even if they're not this particular rape fantasy, even if they're not even sexual, we all have wish-fulfilling fantasies, and someone who objects to wishing is a pretty grim companion.
@72 and @73: precisely my beef with feminists. Perhaps I can't "understand" what someone else is going through, their personal reality. But I can still make valid observations about other people -- even people of other races, genders, and sexual orientations. We all observe and think about each other. If men are ignorant about what it's like to be a woman, that means we should inform them -- more information is always good -- but it doesn't mean they're automatically wrong about everything. I wouldn't want to be in the company of men so tentative that they don't dare form opinions about women.
79
@77 What in @59's post wasn't victim blaming? If some guy grabs me or yells at me because I'm a woman, it's not my responsibility to change him or fight for justice. HE'S the one with the problem and I'm getting the fuck out of there by whatever safe means necessary. If I'm frozen in horror and shock at what's happening, that's okay! It happens! It's called being a victim! Expecting me to do otherwise in order to end his behavior problems is victim blaming.
And part of equality is having autonomy. In our society men's opinions and voices are given respect even when we disagree with them. Women's are not. Feminism doesn't mean you get to stop taking women's voices and complaints seriously when they interrupt male privilege, it means you respect them at all times as legitimate.
And part of equality is having autonomy. In our society men's opinions and voices are given respect even when we disagree with them. Women's are not. Feminism doesn't mean you get to stop taking women's voices and complaints seriously when they interrupt male privilege, it means you respect them at all times as legitimate.
80
@78 What's wrong with not forming opinions about people who are different than you? I am a young, white, hetero, cisgender, able bodied, skinny woman from an upper middle class family. What right do I have to speak for older people or ethnic minorities or disabled people or LGBT people or large people or people with less economic means? So why would men have the right to speak for women?
Women do not have a problem speaking with men about feminism, they have a problem with men assuming that their observations are more valid than those of women living in a disadvantaged reality. Your problem with "feminism" is refusing to recognize your blind privilege.
Women do not have a problem speaking with men about feminism, they have a problem with men assuming that their observations are more valid than those of women living in a disadvantaged reality. Your problem with "feminism" is refusing to recognize your blind privilege.
81
FRF- glad you're speaking up. I didn't take your question as being so hypothetical (to me you were genuinely asking for advice on the situation), but it's nice to see you're keeping Dan's haphazard advice in check. Problem is, Dan seems to be the wrong person to ask about this. If you want to re-affirm your super-poly attitude about sex and relationships and feel better about yourself, ask Dan. "Break up" is the most cynical, close-minded advice he could have possibly given.
If you want real advice that involves compromises with the understanding that other people might have a *slightly* more conservative view (that sometimes involve knee jerk reactions from the other side of the fence) about such things, talk to your friends, significant other and decide how important these things are for you.
If you want real advice that involves compromises with the understanding that other people might have a *slightly* more conservative view (that sometimes involve knee jerk reactions from the other side of the fence) about such things, talk to your friends, significant other and decide how important these things are for you.
82
@80: because it's crippling. It removes from discussion possibly interesting or useful insights.
It's not universally true that you and I know NOTHING that could inform an old person, a poor person, a non-white person, a disabled person, a man, whatever. We might. A man might have something useful to tell you or me. It's worth having the humility to learn from different people, but it's also worth speaking up, being corrected if we're ignorant, and remaining skeptical if we're unconvinced. In other words, treating people as equals, regardless of background.
You show someone respect by requiring him or her to live up to the universal standards of reasonable debate. You do nobody any good by turning off your brain and shutting your mouth as soon as you encounter someone whose physical circumstances are different from yours.
It's not universally true that you and I know NOTHING that could inform an old person, a poor person, a non-white person, a disabled person, a man, whatever. We might. A man might have something useful to tell you or me. It's worth having the humility to learn from different people, but it's also worth speaking up, being corrected if we're ignorant, and remaining skeptical if we're unconvinced. In other words, treating people as equals, regardless of background.
You show someone respect by requiring him or her to live up to the universal standards of reasonable debate. You do nobody any good by turning off your brain and shutting your mouth as soon as you encounter someone whose physical circumstances are different from yours.
83
No, you and I do NOT have the experience to "inform" people who are different or have less privilege than us about their lives and their feelings and experiences. A man has nothing useful to tell you or me about being a woman because he is not one. What is he going to say? Is he going to tell me what it's like to be sexually assaulted? Or objectified? Or prejudiced against? Or have a vagina? Having no personal experience yet trying to enter the debate like his voice has equal footing does not live up to the "universal standards of reasonable debate." The respectful thing for him to do would be to shut up and listen. As my mother always said, "they're my feelings. don't diminish their meaning to me."
84
I'm glad that you feel that the opinions of half the people in the world have no value because they happen to have different genitalia than you. Could you be any more sexist?
85
@84 Are you talking to me? Yes, saying "you don't know it's like to be a woman, please don't pretend you do" is the same as saying "your opinion has zero value." EXACTLY THE SAME.
86
I happen to agree with kersy. I believe South Park did a whole episode on this subject. People in a position of entitlement, in this case men, just really can't understand what it's like to be in the other position. No man will ever understand what it's like to put up with low level aggressive sexual harassment on an every day basis, and have to constantly be evaluating whether it would serve you better to fight it or to be quiet and protect yourself. Even gay men who get sexually harassed by other gay men are in a different position because there isn't the physical imbalance that exists between men and women. When I'm in the company of a man - any man, gay friend or boyfriend - I don't get harassed because I have that "protection" with me. It's patronizing for men to assume they know what that's like and that they know what women should do in that situation, because they've never been in it.
JUST LIKE as a straight woman it would be patronizing of me to assume that I know what it's like to be a lesbian or a gay man and for me to tell them the best way to stand up to the hets that discriminate against them. JUST LIKE it would be patronizing of me as a white woman to assume that I know what it's like to have to push against constant racial discrimination. I can empathize, but I will never ever know what it's like because I will never experience it. I don't think kersy is saying men know NOTHING (@82) useful, but that assuming that men understand the situation comprehensively is arrogant because they can't fully comprehend it, and they never will.
What we really need is for men on the subways who see another dude grabbing a stranger's tits to stand up and say, "Leave her the fuck alone dude, or I'll rip your balls off." Because you can bet if the woman isn't speaking up for herself, it's not because she's a coward or because she's been taught that good girls don't object, but because she's trying to keep herself away from real bodily harm.
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JUST LIKE as a straight woman it would be patronizing of me to assume that I know what it's like to be a lesbian or a gay man and for me to tell them the best way to stand up to the hets that discriminate against them. JUST LIKE it would be patronizing of me as a white woman to assume that I know what it's like to have to push against constant racial discrimination. I can empathize, but I will never ever know what it's like because I will never experience it. I don't think kersy is saying men know NOTHING (@82) useful, but that assuming that men understand the situation comprehensively is arrogant because they can't fully comprehend it, and they never will.
What we really need is for men on the subways who see another dude grabbing a stranger's tits to stand up and say, "Leave her the fuck alone dude, or I'll rip your balls off." Because you can bet if the woman isn't speaking up for herself, it's not because she's a coward or because she's been taught that good girls don't object, but because she's trying to keep herself away from real bodily harm.
87
Actually, while I'm at it, I think the best evidence that men don't get the bullshit that women have to put up with is Dan's response to FRF. If anyone would make a good ally for women's rights, it would have to be Dan The Man Savage, who is constantly warning us about attacks on reproductive rights and legalized sexist crap in general. But he doesn't get that FRF's gf had every right to be skeeved out at the idea of using subway gropings and rape as a kink. (@78)
Dan dropped the ball advising FRF to dump her immediately, because he could at least have suggested at least one more conversation to make her a little more comfortable about differentiating between the bedroom and the subway. If after that she understood that FRF would only ever enact a consensual rape fantasy, and that it wasn't about real world power dynamics, but mutual sexual pleasure, then great. Hot sexy time. If she was just too grossed out at the idea of enacting a rape fantasy, fine. No rape fantasy. If she continued to insist that FRF needs to be "cured" of his desire, then DTMFA. But FRF's gf deserves some understanding and Dan was unable to show it to her. Cuz he's a dude, and he's never had his tits grabbed by someone bigger, stronger, hostile, and more sexually aggressive whom he had no hope of fighting off.
Dan dropped the ball advising FRF to dump her immediately, because he could at least have suggested at least one more conversation to make her a little more comfortable about differentiating between the bedroom and the subway. If after that she understood that FRF would only ever enact a consensual rape fantasy, and that it wasn't about real world power dynamics, but mutual sexual pleasure, then great. Hot sexy time. If she was just too grossed out at the idea of enacting a rape fantasy, fine. No rape fantasy. If she continued to insist that FRF needs to be "cured" of his desire, then DTMFA. But FRF's gf deserves some understanding and Dan was unable to show it to her. Cuz he's a dude, and he's never had his tits grabbed by someone bigger, stronger, hostile, and more sexually aggressive whom he had no hope of fighting off.
88
So we don't get it, and we'll never get it. That means there's no point in your explaining it, or our trying to empathize, huh.
89
FRF, you sound like a cool guy. It's nice to hear from a man who really cares about feminism!
I really hope you can talk about this with your girlfriend and do a little exploring. Because although we agree that Dan's advice was off-base, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... if your girlfriend stomps all over your fantasies when you talk to her about them again, and especially if she implies that you have sick desires, please DO break up with her. You don't deserve that.
Also, please don't clamp down on your fantasies or let yourself be convinced in any way that they are "abnormal" or "inappropriate" or "patriarchal". You should not have to repress yourself in a relationship.
Good luck!
I really hope you can talk about this with your girlfriend and do a little exploring. Because although we agree that Dan's advice was off-base, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... if your girlfriend stomps all over your fantasies when you talk to her about them again, and especially if she implies that you have sick desires, please DO break up with her. You don't deserve that.
Also, please don't clamp down on your fantasies or let yourself be convinced in any way that they are "abnormal" or "inappropriate" or "patriarchal". You should not have to repress yourself in a relationship.
Good luck!
90
@Kersy, attempt, just for a moment, to understand that its attitudes like yours that turn many people, including a great many women, off of feminism.
Essentially you are saying that being the owner of a vagina instantly makes your opinion on issues of gender superior to someone who is not so endowed. So men are welcome to support feminism, and to have opinions on feminism and women, just as long as they NEVER contradict that of a woman. If a male opinion on feminism contradicts that of a female, even if they have piles of evidence backing them up, they still have an obligation to concede because they just don't know what its like.
Absolute, unadultered bullshit, and what's worse, entirely counterproductive bullshit at that.
You're a white upper-middle class skinny young straight female. So I suppose you lack any opinions on poverty, obesity, racism, GLBT issues? Or if you do have those opinions you understand that they are totally worthless and should never be taken into consideration because you do not belong to the affected group?
When men encounter feminists who tell them that since they aren't female they can never actually understand gender equality issues and any dissenting opinion is dismissed based on the kind of pee-pee they own, you shouldn't be shocked when lots of them say "fuck this" and stay as far away from those kinds of feminists as they can. And you shouldn't be surprised when many women, myself amongst them, who find this attitude towards men appalling, also decide to stay away.
Essentially you are saying that being the owner of a vagina instantly makes your opinion on issues of gender superior to someone who is not so endowed. So men are welcome to support feminism, and to have opinions on feminism and women, just as long as they NEVER contradict that of a woman. If a male opinion on feminism contradicts that of a female, even if they have piles of evidence backing them up, they still have an obligation to concede because they just don't know what its like.
Absolute, unadultered bullshit, and what's worse, entirely counterproductive bullshit at that.
You're a white upper-middle class skinny young straight female. So I suppose you lack any opinions on poverty, obesity, racism, GLBT issues? Or if you do have those opinions you understand that they are totally worthless and should never be taken into consideration because you do not belong to the affected group?
When men encounter feminists who tell them that since they aren't female they can never actually understand gender equality issues and any dissenting opinion is dismissed based on the kind of pee-pee they own, you shouldn't be shocked when lots of them say "fuck this" and stay as far away from those kinds of feminists as they can. And you shouldn't be surprised when many women, myself amongst them, who find this attitude towards men appalling, also decide to stay away.
91
Particularly given that most men have girls and women in their lives--mothers, sisters, grandmothers, aunts, friends, cousins, lovers...--it's fairly idiotic to say that they have no insight into what it's like to be a woman. They may not have lived it themselves, but if they can see beyond their own noses and are reasonably intelligent, people are fully capable of empathizing, understanding, imagining and observing, which is after all how anyone gains any insight into anyone else's life.
As to your remarks concerning sexual assault, objectification and prejudice, if you think only women deal with these things then you're woefully ignorant.
As to your remarks concerning sexual assault, objectification and prejudice, if you think only women deal with these things then you're woefully ignorant.
92
So I get to contradict kersy's views on homosexuality merely because I'm gay? No matter how obscenely ill-informed and ridiculous my opinion is? Sweet. I love this identity politics stuff.
93
I'm a feminist. I would only date a man who was a feminist.
I abhor rape.
And I have had--and indulged--rape fantasies with a man who would never in "real" life use violence, coercive force, or any other non-consensual technique on a woman for sex.
It was incredibly hot.
Part of what made the "rape"-sex so good was the knowledge that it wasn't really rape at all; it was explicitly agreed to in advance, and if I had wanted to stop the "rape" from progressing, I knew I could.
There are plenty of feminists out there who understand the difference between fantasy role-play and reality, and who don't confuse their sexual desires with their political beliefs. Don't fall for her judgmental attempts to squelch your sexual interests. It won't work anyway, and you'll just become self-loathing while allowing her to control all aspects of your conscious and subconscious behavior.
I abhor rape.
And I have had--and indulged--rape fantasies with a man who would never in "real" life use violence, coercive force, or any other non-consensual technique on a woman for sex.
It was incredibly hot.
Part of what made the "rape"-sex so good was the knowledge that it wasn't really rape at all; it was explicitly agreed to in advance, and if I had wanted to stop the "rape" from progressing, I knew I could.
There are plenty of feminists out there who understand the difference between fantasy role-play and reality, and who don't confuse their sexual desires with their political beliefs. Don't fall for her judgmental attempts to squelch your sexual interests. It won't work anyway, and you'll just become self-loathing while allowing her to control all aspects of your conscious and subconscious behavior.
94
I would call myself a feminist. I, like most other women, have experienced plenty of sexual harassment - everything from a male boss who won't stop calling me things like "honey" or "sweetie" (which I take as being paternalistic, i.e., I'm just a young naive girl to him), to someone actually copping a feel without invitation. And it does suck.
However, most rational people can tell the difference between fantasy and reality and are able to fantasize or be turned on by things that they would never dream of doing or wanting in reality.
Subway groping (or other public molestation): I have a recurrent fantasy of having a man, whom I don't know and cannot see, come up behind me and put his hand up under my skirt in a crowded public place. In the fantasy, I'm always wearing a short skirt, which I almost never do in real life. In the fantasy, this unseen man reaches under my panties and gets me off. The challenge for me, in the fantasy, is to be able to keep control of my face, so nobody can tell that anything is going on. It's incredibly hot for me - the idea of having a stranger do something to me that is technically assault and being turned on by it in the fantasy, turns me on.
Back in the real world, I once had the experience of having a strange man I could not see reach up under my skirt in a crowded public area, jam his fingers past my underwear and grab. It was horrifying. I was terrified, humiliated, shaking with anger. I couldn't see who had done it. I was on jam-packed Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras, walking with my boyfriend and some of his friends. I screamed. I felt betrayed that my boyfriend had not protected me (even though he didn't see it and could not have intervened unless he had been walking directly behind me). The memory of that event is not a turn on AT ALL.
But it has never stopped me from enjoying my fantasy, because in the fantasy "I" enjoy it.
FRF, maybe another way to approach the discussion with your girlfriend about exploring scenarios that would be abhorrent in real life, is to ask her what kinds of "forbidden" fantasies she has, ask her what unpleasant (or downright terrifying) things have happened in her real life vs. what unpleasant or terrifying things turn her on in fantasy. Offer her a safe, non-judgmental outlet to explore her own fantasies, since she already knows how much you respect and value her as a woman and human being. If that works, it might enable her to build up the trust to allow you to explore your own, without you feeling like you're a patriarchal schmuck just for thinking of it.
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However, most rational people can tell the difference between fantasy and reality and are able to fantasize or be turned on by things that they would never dream of doing or wanting in reality.
Subway groping (or other public molestation): I have a recurrent fantasy of having a man, whom I don't know and cannot see, come up behind me and put his hand up under my skirt in a crowded public place. In the fantasy, I'm always wearing a short skirt, which I almost never do in real life. In the fantasy, this unseen man reaches under my panties and gets me off. The challenge for me, in the fantasy, is to be able to keep control of my face, so nobody can tell that anything is going on. It's incredibly hot for me - the idea of having a stranger do something to me that is technically assault and being turned on by it in the fantasy, turns me on.
Back in the real world, I once had the experience of having a strange man I could not see reach up under my skirt in a crowded public area, jam his fingers past my underwear and grab. It was horrifying. I was terrified, humiliated, shaking with anger. I couldn't see who had done it. I was on jam-packed Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras, walking with my boyfriend and some of his friends. I screamed. I felt betrayed that my boyfriend had not protected me (even though he didn't see it and could not have intervened unless he had been walking directly behind me). The memory of that event is not a turn on AT ALL.
But it has never stopped me from enjoying my fantasy, because in the fantasy "I" enjoy it.
FRF, maybe another way to approach the discussion with your girlfriend about exploring scenarios that would be abhorrent in real life, is to ask her what kinds of "forbidden" fantasies she has, ask her what unpleasant (or downright terrifying) things have happened in her real life vs. what unpleasant or terrifying things turn her on in fantasy. Offer her a safe, non-judgmental outlet to explore her own fantasies, since she already knows how much you respect and value her as a woman and human being. If that works, it might enable her to build up the trust to allow you to explore your own, without you feeling like you're a patriarchal schmuck just for thinking of it.
95
@87 "But he doesn't get that FRF's gf had every right to be skeeved out at the idea of using subway gropings and rape as a kink."
Dan certainly did say that FRF's gf had every right to be skeeved out by the idea of using subway gropings and rape as a kink, Lo: "The fine print: I'm not telling you to dump your girlfriend because she won't let you feel her up on the subway, FRF. She's under no obligations to fulfill your rape or rape-lite fantasies. If they squick her out, they squick her out."
What Dan said is that FRF's gf didn't have every right to declare that such kink made FRF sick in such a way that FRF needed to be cured by his gf.
Dan certainly did say that FRF's gf had every right to be skeeved out by the idea of using subway gropings and rape as a kink, Lo: "The fine print: I'm not telling you to dump your girlfriend because she won't let you feel her up on the subway, FRF. She's under no obligations to fulfill your rape or rape-lite fantasies. If they squick her out, they squick her out."
What Dan said is that FRF's gf didn't have every right to declare that such kink made FRF sick in such a way that FRF needed to be cured by his gf.
96
Isn't that a little premature, Dan? What we've got going here is a conflict of ideologies: one that says sex is basically good, even pretend rape, and another one that says rape is bad, so pretend rape is also bad. This conflict is complicated by a third ideology, that sex is basically bad, which FRF (and his girlfriend?) have probably intellectually rejected but may still emotionally give some credence to, reinforcing the fake-rape-is-bad idea.
Chances are FRF's girlfriend is still developing her worldviews and is open to new ideas. Rather than assume she'll hold onto this fake-rape-is-bad thing come hell or high water, FRF could at least make some attempt to try to convince her that feminism is compatible with rape fantasies. Certainly acting out rape fantasies AND trying to figure out the patriarchal BS behind them can be done at the same time. Anyone have any recommended reading on the topic?
Chances are FRF's girlfriend is still developing her worldviews and is open to new ideas. Rather than assume she'll hold onto this fake-rape-is-bad thing come hell or high water, FRF could at least make some attempt to try to convince her that feminism is compatible with rape fantasies. Certainly acting out rape fantasies AND trying to figure out the patriarchal BS behind them can be done at the same time. Anyone have any recommended reading on the topic?
97
It's a common misconception in just about every social equality movement that anything a member of the oppressed class says about their situation is automatically better than anything a member of the privileged class has to say about the situation. This is total bullshit for the pure and simple reason that many people, including people in oppressed classes, are complete and total morons.
I'm white, but I've encountered people of color who are stupid enough to say that they don't think racism exists in this society anymore. So yeah, I think I have better things to say about racism than those idiots do. Sure, I don't experience the oppression like they do, but experiencing a problem doesn't necessarily give you the intelligence or insight to understand it correctly. But put me in a room with Bell Hooks - a woman who's at least as intelligent as I am and also black - and I can only hope to be worthy of her patience as I learn from her.
I remember once having an argument with some liberal activists over whether or not a certain cartoon was racist. One (white) idiot said, "If people of color say it's racist, it is!"
I was flabbergasted. Apparently all people of color have a collective brain and have the same opinion about everything, hmm? Nothing racist in *that* statement, nosiree...
And frankly, Kersey, I think my feminist husband has mostly better things to say about feminism than you do. I've encountered plenty of brilliant male feminists who have keen insight on gender issues because they have good minds. That doesn't mean I think men are just as capable, generally speaking, of understanding women's issues; all things being equal in the intelligence/insight/analysis department, a woman is generally going to have better things to say because she's generally going to have more experiences from which to draw her analysis. However, there are even cases in which this is not true: a man who's stood closely by a woman who's been through a rape, for example, may have more understanding of the nature of the experience than some college girl who's read some books about rape culture. but never been assaulted herself.
Sorry, kids, but there's just no easy answer. Yes, of course, we have societal de-valuing of women's opinions, but blind deference in ANY area isn't the solution to this problem.
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I'm white, but I've encountered people of color who are stupid enough to say that they don't think racism exists in this society anymore. So yeah, I think I have better things to say about racism than those idiots do. Sure, I don't experience the oppression like they do, but experiencing a problem doesn't necessarily give you the intelligence or insight to understand it correctly. But put me in a room with Bell Hooks - a woman who's at least as intelligent as I am and also black - and I can only hope to be worthy of her patience as I learn from her.
I remember once having an argument with some liberal activists over whether or not a certain cartoon was racist. One (white) idiot said, "If people of color say it's racist, it is!"
I was flabbergasted. Apparently all people of color have a collective brain and have the same opinion about everything, hmm? Nothing racist in *that* statement, nosiree...
And frankly, Kersey, I think my feminist husband has mostly better things to say about feminism than you do. I've encountered plenty of brilliant male feminists who have keen insight on gender issues because they have good minds. That doesn't mean I think men are just as capable, generally speaking, of understanding women's issues; all things being equal in the intelligence/insight/analysis department, a woman is generally going to have better things to say because she's generally going to have more experiences from which to draw her analysis. However, there are even cases in which this is not true: a man who's stood closely by a woman who's been through a rape, for example, may have more understanding of the nature of the experience than some college girl who's read some books about rape culture. but never been assaulted herself.
Sorry, kids, but there's just no easy answer. Yes, of course, we have societal de-valuing of women's opinions, but blind deference in ANY area isn't the solution to this problem.
98
I'm too lazy to scroll back up and see who mentioned Dworkin as one of the anti-porn proponents, but yeah, she's dead. Good riddance if you ask me.
And I am a feminist. Wholeheartedly. I almost typed "whore-heartedy" there, which is actually rather appropriate, since I am a whore. *gasp* Oh noes, I must be brainwashed by the patriarchy, because you know, no self-respecting women would actually CHOOSE such a profession.
To the other commenter who said, there is no feminism, only feminisms: you got that shit right.
And I am a feminist. Wholeheartedly. I almost typed "whore-heartedy" there, which is actually rather appropriate, since I am a whore. *gasp* Oh noes, I must be brainwashed by the patriarchy, because you know, no self-respecting women would actually CHOOSE such a profession.
To the other commenter who said, there is no feminism, only feminisms: you got that shit right.
99
98 - I don't agree with Dworkin's positions on porn, but she was great in a lot of other regards. Actually learn something about the women before you say something as awful as that about her, please.
100
Very many interesting comments here. Whenever I start thinking that debates on equality are going downhill, dominated by morons, then something happens (like me by accidenting reading these comments) to make me realize that there are intelligent people around. Thanks to all!
Maybe men and women should develop some more mutual empathy. Not compare our mutual problems -- '100% of us have been groped / had their sexual desires belittled by their partners'... Some day men should think about what women go through, and women should think about what men go through, without having to 'compare' ('I suffer more than you!') or to 'prove' anything ('I'm oppressed and you're not!'), but just to actually understand each other better. Not to prove points or advance political agendas, but just to know what life is like on the other side. You know, knowing others is good. Increases your understanding of the world, and of yourself. Alter-knowledge is ultimately also self-knowledge.
Someone said that real rapists start out fantasizing. That's true. But it's also like saying that murderers may start out fantasizing about killing someone -- and yet we all have probably imagined what the world would be like if our stupid boss could be killed, which doesn't mean we are all potential murderers...
Rapists may fantasize about raping. Non-rapists may also fantasize about raping. What does that tell us? That people are complicated, and predictors of future behavior are hard to come by. Trying to double-guess is, I think, akin to inviting Big Brother into our lives.
Can't we think about certain kinds of desires as arousing from our culture? A rapey culture creates rape fantasies? Sure, we can. But let's not shame the people who have these fantasies. They have developed perfectly good ways of dealing with sexuality, and even if actual social problems have played a role in the origin of said fantasies, it doesn't make them evil. Just like having fantasies about princes and princesses doesn't make you a totalitarian monarchist, even if the idea of monarchy may have somehow played a role in your prince-and-princess fantasy.
It's OK to study society and the way it is. Just don't make people evil if they aren't evil. Evil is... a complicated thing, not simple and easy. Simplifying it is... itself evil.
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Maybe men and women should develop some more mutual empathy. Not compare our mutual problems -- '100% of us have been groped / had their sexual desires belittled by their partners'... Some day men should think about what women go through, and women should think about what men go through, without having to 'compare' ('I suffer more than you!') or to 'prove' anything ('I'm oppressed and you're not!'), but just to actually understand each other better. Not to prove points or advance political agendas, but just to know what life is like on the other side. You know, knowing others is good. Increases your understanding of the world, and of yourself. Alter-knowledge is ultimately also self-knowledge.
Someone said that real rapists start out fantasizing. That's true. But it's also like saying that murderers may start out fantasizing about killing someone -- and yet we all have probably imagined what the world would be like if our stupid boss could be killed, which doesn't mean we are all potential murderers...
Rapists may fantasize about raping. Non-rapists may also fantasize about raping. What does that tell us? That people are complicated, and predictors of future behavior are hard to come by. Trying to double-guess is, I think, akin to inviting Big Brother into our lives.
Can't we think about certain kinds of desires as arousing from our culture? A rapey culture creates rape fantasies? Sure, we can. But let's not shame the people who have these fantasies. They have developed perfectly good ways of dealing with sexuality, and even if actual social problems have played a role in the origin of said fantasies, it doesn't make them evil. Just like having fantasies about princes and princesses doesn't make you a totalitarian monarchist, even if the idea of monarchy may have somehow played a role in your prince-and-princess fantasy.
It's OK to study society and the way it is. Just don't make people evil if they aren't evil. Evil is... a complicated thing, not simple and easy. Simplifying it is... itself evil.
101
@95 But don't you think that her reaction, particularly because it was her immediate response, could have been skeeved-outedness couched in feminist intellectualism? It seems like a very defensive reaction to me, especially since FRF made it very clear that they self-identify as feminists.
Dan had another letter like this before, where a woman wrote in after some guy introduced a relatively benign kink but one she'd never heard of before, like ear-tonguing or knee-licking or something like that. Her reaction was to say "What?!" and the guy got scared and Dan chewed her out for being a judgmental bitch who ruins sex for everybody. Tons of people wrote in and Dan retracted, because people are allowed to be incredulous as an initial reaction to a kink. Seems to me that people are allowed be defensive as an initial reaction to a kink too, and that's just what FRF's gf did.
I'm just saying that the girl is owed more than one conversation so they can explore her reaction before the guy dumps her.
Dan had another letter like this before, where a woman wrote in after some guy introduced a relatively benign kink but one she'd never heard of before, like ear-tonguing or knee-licking or something like that. Her reaction was to say "What?!" and the guy got scared and Dan chewed her out for being a judgmental bitch who ruins sex for everybody. Tons of people wrote in and Dan retracted, because people are allowed to be incredulous as an initial reaction to a kink. Seems to me that people are allowed be defensive as an initial reaction to a kink too, and that's just what FRF's gf did.
I'm just saying that the girl is owed more than one conversation so they can explore her reaction before the guy dumps her.
102
@100 Hear hear for mutual empathy. People who are getting up in arms about me or anyone else saying that men don't understand what sort of b.s. women have to go through I think are taking the point too far. I'm not quite sure why they're not getting it: what I'm expressing for at least myself is that when I get on the subway, I always have that statistic in the back of my mind that says 1 in 4 women is a victim of attempted rape, and 80% of those rape attempts are successful. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that men worry about that on public transit, or ever.
Likewise, I'm sure there's shit that men have to deal with that I'm not aware of. I'm just not a part of that culture and here's the thing: I understand that my empathy and committedness to men's rights is limited by my not being a man. So the question we have to ask is: what can we do to help? I already suggested that men who see a guy groping or harassing a girl in public speak up in that girl's defense, because she's worried more about her safety than about standing up to one more douchebag. In Italy, they actually reformed their treatment of women in public places over the course of a decade or two because the men became embarrassed by and fed up with their peers' lechery.
So I suppose the question I should ask men is, what are the problems you encounter purely as a result of your gender, and what can women do to help?
Likewise, I'm sure there's shit that men have to deal with that I'm not aware of. I'm just not a part of that culture and here's the thing: I understand that my empathy and committedness to men's rights is limited by my not being a man. So the question we have to ask is: what can we do to help? I already suggested that men who see a guy groping or harassing a girl in public speak up in that girl's defense, because she's worried more about her safety than about standing up to one more douchebag. In Italy, they actually reformed their treatment of women in public places over the course of a decade or two because the men became embarrassed by and fed up with their peers' lechery.
So I suppose the question I should ask men is, what are the problems you encounter purely as a result of your gender, and what can women do to help?
103
@101 Oh, certainly I think the girl is owed more than one conversation. I think this is especially the case because if I'm reading the letter correctly, the guy didn't even actually tell her that HE wanted to do anything, but merely put forth the whole, "What if I HYPOTHETICALLY liked X . . ." She might not react the same to an actual situation as she did to the hypothetical one, and how she reacts to hypothetical situations isn't really important. Furthermore, if he worded things the way he did in the letter, it isn't inconceivable that she thinks the hypothetical situation is one where he wants to feel up actual unwilling women. I think FRF needs to sit down and have a candid conversation with her about what he actually wants. This conversation needs to be non-hypothetical and specific on how important consent is. After doing this, he should tell her that she can take some time to think about it and that he'd be happy to answer questions if she has any. If she still goes on with the, "And I'm going to cure you!" or if she actually has a worse reaction, THEN he should dump her.
104
99 -- I have read Dworkin (and MacKinnon; did you see her last book, "Are Women Human?"), and frankly anything in it that was really Dworkin's (or MacKinnon's) seemed to me exaggerated, and anything that didn't seem exaggerated wasn't originally Dworkin's (or MacKinnon's). Could you mention one regard in which she was great? Thanks!
105
104 - Um...I dunno what you would consider "great" as you haven't exactly talked about what you don't like. I've just liked a good deal of her analysis, is all. Not all of it. The oft misquoted statement about legal marital rape was, if you read what she actually said, pretty apt.
I'd address your statement, but you seem to have lost what you were actually stating in syntax. What exactly did you read? Your actual sentence refers to Dworkin as "it."
I'd address your statement, but you seem to have lost what you were actually stating in syntax. What exactly did you read? Your actual sentence refers to Dworkin as "it."
106
"Someone said that real rapists start out fantasizing. That's true. But it's also like saying that murderers may start out fantasizing about killing someone -- and yet we all have probably imagined what the world would be like if our stupid boss could be killed, which doesn't mean we are all potential murderers..."
Um...yeah. That's why I said, in my first statement, that I'm sure there are plenty of men with rapist fantasies who are just hunky dory human beings. Please pay attention to a qualified statement, kthnx.
Um...yeah. That's why I said, in my first statement, that I'm sure there are plenty of men with rapist fantasies who are just hunky dory human beings. Please pay attention to a qualified statement, kthnx.
109
Oooh 98, you do make me smile. Did you know Andrea Dworkin was a prostitute too?
I'm not a big fan, but the woman was more complex than her stand on pornography might lead you to think. There's a lot of stuff on the web if you want to explore.
I'm not a big fan, but the woman was more complex than her stand on pornography might lead you to think. There's a lot of stuff on the web if you want to explore.
111
@109 - You also have to take Dworkin's opinions on porn in the context of the time she lived in. The biggest names in female porn stars, then, really *were* being exploited and abused and all that stuff - like Linda Lovelace and Marilyn Chambers. You didn't have the sort of sex-positive porn culture we do now and I suppose it would have been difficult to imagine things improving.
What you have to understand when talking about the porn industry in America is that it's changed a LOT since Larry Flynt and the widespread availability of amateur filmmaking equipment. Back when the genre was of borderline legality (or flat-out illegal) and cost a lot of money to make, it was pretty much an branch of organized crime (as in, it was actual tied to the mafia). The stuff behind the scenes never used to be anything that any feminist--or for that matter, any marginally decent human being--could dream of getting behind.
As for Andrea Dworkin...she may be most famous for her anti-pornography crusades, but she also did a lot of other work that it's pretty hard to argue with...gay rights, ending violence against women, fighting apartheid, promoting sex education and use of contraception (including their distribution on college campuses), and, of course, choice.
What you have to understand when talking about the porn industry in America is that it's changed a LOT since Larry Flynt and the widespread availability of amateur filmmaking equipment. Back when the genre was of borderline legality (or flat-out illegal) and cost a lot of money to make, it was pretty much an branch of organized crime (as in, it was actual tied to the mafia). The stuff behind the scenes never used to be anything that any feminist--or for that matter, any marginally decent human being--could dream of getting behind.
As for Andrea Dworkin...she may be most famous for her anti-pornography crusades, but she also did a lot of other work that it's pretty hard to argue with...gay rights, ending violence against women, fighting apartheid, promoting sex education and use of contraception (including their distribution on college campuses), and, of course, choice.
112
All these people gagging and rolling their eyes at feminism...I do wonder how they think all the advances in women's rights of the last century came to be? Just miraculously springing out of the ground? Surely no one ever *fought* for them or anything...
113
laurelgardner @111, EXACTLY! I was hoping that 98 might go further and see that she has more in common with Andrea D than she thinks. It is really hard for young women (and if she's making her living in sex work, she's younger than I) now to grok just how limited women's choices were in the sixties and early seventies. I like to wonder what Andrea D would think of our world---but given that she was such a product of her absolutely horrific experiences as a young woman...well, it's a thought experiment that goes nowhere.
114
"...I do wonder how they think all the advances in women's rights of the last century came to be? ... Surely no one ever *fought* for them or anything"
Oh, how nice of you to give props to all our dead veterans. How unexpected. Respect!
Oh, how nice of you to give props to all our dead veterans. How unexpected. Respect!
115
FRF - Dan is saving you a lot of time and aggravation. Just keep track of the various ways in which anything you like that doesn't fit with your GF's "feminist" view of the world is diagnosed as being bad. Apparently you have some masculinist self-hatred going on buddy!
116
Uhh 114, you're so far out in left field that you're not in the game.
(No Vassar princess here, btw)
Oh, and all the vets in MY family, including my Vietnam POW brother, support women's rights, but none would claim they fought in Vietnam or WWII or the Gulf War for them.
(No Vassar princess here, btw)
Oh, and all the vets in MY family, including my Vietnam POW brother, support women's rights, but none would claim they fought in Vietnam or WWII or the Gulf War for them.
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