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News & ArtsWednesday, March 24, 2010
Homo This Guy Is a Fag
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 1:02 PM
Ken Cuccinelli is Virginia's rabidly anti-gay attorney general—you can find a full rundown of what's he's been up to here—and he's a fag. Total cocksucker. He has to be. Because if we've learned anything over the last few years it's this: only a Haggard or a Craig or a Ashburn would say and do shit like this. So... this guy is a fag. Total fag. I don't know where Cuccinelli is right now but I'd say the odds that Cuccinelli is sitting on someone's dick right now are roughly 98%. Or higher.
For the record: I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay. I mean, obviously. So while this particular state attorney general—this bigoted douchebag—might not like being called a fag, I trust that my fellow fags aren't going to think I've insulted them by calling this guy a fag.
2
Well, we don't know if he's sitting on some guy's cock. I mean he could be a top. And yeah, I'd do him. It would be more of a rough grudge fuck but still, I'd do him.
4
i have been thinking that he has TOTAL gay face all day. And as a cock sucking music theater loving power bottom i do not for a moment take any insult to ur use of FAG.
Thanks Dan!
Thanks Dan!
5
Dan,
There's a big difference between calling someone a bigoted closet case based on empirical evidence (which you referenced well!) and calling them a transgender based on wanting to just use it as an insult (not just to the insulted person, but also to the community) and get Google hits.
There's a big difference between calling someone a bigoted closet case based on empirical evidence (which you referenced well!) and calling them a transgender based on wanting to just use it as an insult (not just to the insulted person, but also to the community) and get Google hits.
6
This ploy would have worked better in reverse. Had you called the Washington State AG a fag yesterday...or even if you called this guy a fag yesterday and the WA AG a trans traitor today...you might have been able to get away with the flawed logic.
But I kinda see through this as an attempt to get off the hook for yesterday...or at least to try to pull a Coulteristic "I'm the victim of a hate crime" move.
I can smell the douchiness.
But I kinda see through this as an attempt to get off the hook for yesterday...or at least to try to pull a Coulteristic "I'm the victim of a hate crime" move.
I can smell the douchiness.
8
His last name sounds like something Charro would say. In other words, total 'mo. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just him.
9
Or he just wants to suck up to the Repub base in VA (most of the area not in northern VA) and try to set his sight for bigger political gains. It's nothing new.
10
That makes no sense. Since when are gays and people who participate in "homosexual acts" not integrated into society?
Oh right, that happens when bigots don't LET them integrate themselves into society. You know, like not letting homosexuals participate in normal milestones. Here's lookin' at you, Itawamba County school board.
Because life is so much more fun when the gayz don't feel accepted. After all, Jesus said love thy neighbour... unless they are gay.
I'm so sick of this shit.
Oh right, that happens when bigots don't LET them integrate themselves into society. You know, like not letting homosexuals participate in normal milestones. Here's lookin' at you, Itawamba County school board.
Because life is so much more fun when the gayz don't feel accepted. After all, Jesus said love thy neighbour... unless they are gay.
I'm so sick of this shit.
11
What 5 and 6 said. While I agree that the chances of his being a total closet case are tantalizingly high, this would have been so much more effective it if weren't a transparent attempt excusing yesterday's post without, you know, actually apologizing.
12
Why do these seriously closeted types have to be such complete douchebags? I mean, c'mon. I don't want him on my side of the rope, no matter how hot he might be in his obsessive, guilt-fuelled full body release activities. Unless we can make him go to gay reparative therapy and learn to be a non-douchey guy?
13
@2: I'm in for some tag team action.
@6: I think Dan's trying to point out what the joke was supposed to be yesterday: He said McKenna was transgendered because it's something McKenna would perceive as an insult.
This guy may be a fag, but I don't think he says anything especially incendiary here. he doesn't really say much of anything.
@6: I think Dan's trying to point out what the joke was supposed to be yesterday: He said McKenna was transgendered because it's something McKenna would perceive as an insult.
This guy may be a fag, but I don't think he says anything especially incendiary here. he doesn't really say much of anything.
14
I don't know whether he's a fag or not, but he is NOT using his Baby-Jesus-Given brain very well. That was a crappy and stupid string of words that dribbled out his mouth.
If I had to know every person's sexual orientation in order to decide whether to "integrate" them into society. . . ewwwww!!
If I had to know every person's sexual orientation in order to decide whether to "integrate" them into society. . . ewwwww!!
15
I don't think Dan's apologizing or "making up" for yesterday.
Actually, I know he's not. But, you know, lambs to the slaughter, bawwww people say dickish things. The grief chiefs are sitting high in the saddle today, looking to add more offense to their war bonnets.
I think folks need to go check the other thread to see what Telsa and Matt said. They're doing it right.
Actually, I know he's not. But, you know, lambs to the slaughter, bawwww people say dickish things. The grief chiefs are sitting high in the saddle today, looking to add more offense to their war bonnets.
I think folks need to go check the other thread to see what Telsa and Matt said. They're doing it right.
17
Please try to see the difference. This works because you're the targeted class or group. And further, I agree with you about him!
18
you know Dan... I like you, your column, your poscast, etc. I actually quoted you on the "there are two types of anti-gay crazies" a few times. A lot of anti-gay legislators ARE gay.
But please, please, please stop being a douche about the trans thing. You WERE wrong. People WEREN'T being oversensative. Give transsexual and transgendered people the same respect that you'd want for yourself, and cut out the snark.
But please, please, please stop being a douche about the trans thing. You WERE wrong. People WEREN'T being oversensative. Give transsexual and transgendered people the same respect that you'd want for yourself, and cut out the snark.
22
Honest question here - can somebody explain to me how transgender rights got lumped in with gay rights? From what I can tell, they have nothing to do with each other.
Transgender people seem to have more in common with anorexics, breast augmenters, steroid users, penis enlargers, tattoo fans, and other people who aren't content with their natural body. But this seems an entirely separate phenomenon from one's natural born sexual preference.
Is there a moral obligation not to discriminate against men who take steroids? Or women with obviously fake titties? Maybe, maybe not, but this question seems much more relevant to transgender issues than questions about gay rights.
Transgender people seem to have more in common with anorexics, breast augmenters, steroid users, penis enlargers, tattoo fans, and other people who aren't content with their natural body. But this seems an entirely separate phenomenon from one's natural born sexual preference.
Is there a moral obligation not to discriminate against men who take steroids? Or women with obviously fake titties? Maybe, maybe not, but this question seems much more relevant to transgender issues than questions about gay rights.
23
@ 22
I've been thinking that for years- just never was able to form it into sentences like you did. I agree- their battles are not the same... Trangendered issues (to me) are more along the lines of Body dysmorphic disorder. A mental illness (yeah, I said it)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmor…
I've been thinking that for years- just never was able to form it into sentences like you did. I agree- their battles are not the same... Trangendered issues (to me) are more along the lines of Body dysmorphic disorder. A mental illness (yeah, I said it)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmor…
24
Speaking as a fellow SecretBottomBoy, I agree. He is no top.
It's a shame he's such a dick-- b/c damn, he has a cute mouth.
It's a shame he's such a dick-- b/c damn, he has a cute mouth.
25
@seandr, I'm certainly no expert on the trans community, but you are mistaken if you think transgenderism is a "choice" for many trans men and women.
For reasons that aren't really clear, some people are born in the "wrong" body. This is usually visible basically from the minute the baby is old enough to be doing things atributable to males or females (dolls vs. trucks, princess costume vs. soldier costume). Its not just effeminate boys and tomboy girls, these children want to BE the other sex, and feel that they really ARE the other sex but something is wrong with their bodies.
It's not a fun thing, many commit suicide in their teens when their bodies become even more "wrong". These days doctors often recommend starting hormonal treatment for clear cases in pre-adolescence, to ensure as much normality as possible and most of the civilized world (including, I think, the US) recognize sex changes that make you legally the other gender. You've likely crossed trans men in the streets, they are indistinguisable from an XY man if you don't take off their pants.
The upshot? We aren't talking about a trend or a fashion, we're talking about a group of people who are born into a small and often abused (especially trans women) sexual minority, hence the T in GLBT.
For reasons that aren't really clear, some people are born in the "wrong" body. This is usually visible basically from the minute the baby is old enough to be doing things atributable to males or females (dolls vs. trucks, princess costume vs. soldier costume). Its not just effeminate boys and tomboy girls, these children want to BE the other sex, and feel that they really ARE the other sex but something is wrong with their bodies.
It's not a fun thing, many commit suicide in their teens when their bodies become even more "wrong". These days doctors often recommend starting hormonal treatment for clear cases in pre-adolescence, to ensure as much normality as possible and most of the civilized world (including, I think, the US) recognize sex changes that make you legally the other gender. You've likely crossed trans men in the streets, they are indistinguisable from an XY man if you don't take off their pants.
The upshot? We aren't talking about a trend or a fashion, we're talking about a group of people who are born into a small and often abused (especially trans women) sexual minority, hence the T in GLBT.
26
On the lighter side, doesn't the name "Cuccinelli" sound like a sex act? Maybe rimming an effeminate straight-identified man?
27
thanks Lynx. I'm no expert either, but it makes my blood boil when gay people can't see the parallels. You know, kind of how my blood boils when African Americans can't see the parallels between gay civil rights and black civil rights.
T is part of LGBT. We all need to support each other.
T is part of LGBT. We all need to support each other.
28
@22 and 23: Trans folk have told me it's a civil rights issue and it involves sex-- as if that's reason enough. Certainly history would show that sexual minorities have been discriminated against, and a lot of institutional discrimination still exists.
There is strength in numbers and it benefits trans folk to be with a larger group.
There's also a problem of not wanting leave someone in trouble behind.
But I've never liked being in the same grouping and I've been publicly marching for gay rights for 35 years --- I know I am not alone.
I am still having to correct people all the time that gay is NOT transsexual, and having it constantly conflated is a prime reason for this.
There is strength in numbers and it benefits trans folk to be with a larger group.
There's also a problem of not wanting leave someone in trouble behind.
But I've never liked being in the same grouping and I've been publicly marching for gay rights for 35 years --- I know I am not alone.
I am still having to correct people all the time that gay is NOT transsexual, and having it constantly conflated is a prime reason for this.
29
@25
As a child I played with dolls and dressed up in mom's and sisters clothing- in addition to doing traditional boy things... As for the dolls & dress up thing? I grew out of it.
I see MTF's quite often and frankly they look more like drag queens than women. The focus seems to be all about the outward/superficial accoutrements of femininity. Most real women aren't that pre-occupied with the symbols of being a lady. (I'm a Lay-Deeee, I do Lay-Deeee things!)
No offense, but out of respect to women,
It takes a lot more than (a lot of) makeup, painted nails a dress and a burning desire to make a woman.
Don't even get me started on FTM's...
As a child I played with dolls and dressed up in mom's and sisters clothing- in addition to doing traditional boy things... As for the dolls & dress up thing? I grew out of it.
I see MTF's quite often and frankly they look more like drag queens than women. The focus seems to be all about the outward/superficial accoutrements of femininity. Most real women aren't that pre-occupied with the symbols of being a lady. (I'm a Lay-Deeee, I do Lay-Deeee things!)
No offense, but out of respect to women,
It takes a lot more than (a lot of) makeup, painted nails a dress and a burning desire to make a woman.
Don't even get me started on FTM's...
30
Man, fuck this. Dan, you're a twat.
seandr: I won't (and can't) answer for transgenders, since I don't know what goes through their minds.
As for the distinct matter of being transsexual, however, that we're starting to see it finally being dropped from inventories of mental disorders and defined as a congenital matter much the way homosexuality was dropped by the APA in 1973 should give some pause. Taking ownership over one's body — modifying it accordingly to mitigate that congenital matter and getting on with life — really is of sole concern to that individual. Obviously, if there was no reason to do so, then this would never need to happen, now would it?
seandr: I won't (and can't) answer for transgenders, since I don't know what goes through their minds.
As for the distinct matter of being transsexual, however, that we're starting to see it finally being dropped from inventories of mental disorders and defined as a congenital matter much the way homosexuality was dropped by the APA in 1973 should give some pause. Taking ownership over one's body — modifying it accordingly to mitigate that congenital matter and getting on with life — really is of sole concern to that individual. Obviously, if there was no reason to do so, then this would never need to happen, now would it?
32
I support keeping the T in GLBT. I support their participation in the our parades and that Ts are included when we fight for equal rights protections.
It should not matter if it is a choice or not. No matter what FTMs and MTFs deserve our respect. The last thing we should do is treat them like the homophobes treat us.
It should not matter if it is a choice or not. No matter what FTMs and MTFs deserve our respect. The last thing we should do is treat them like the homophobes treat us.
33
I can't help but follow by this same logic, Dan... The ones who seem most motivated to stamp out and silence gays, the more likely they're a self-hating fag themselves...
34
@29, with all due respect, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
I'm not talking about playing with dolls as a child or being a tomboy. I was a tomboy. Some boys like dolls and some come out gay. That's all well and good and has NOTHING to do with gender identity disorder. GID is not a phase, not a way of acting out, its a condition that shatters the lives of thousands of boys and girls, partially because they not only have to deal with the usual serving of bigotry and discrimination from the right, but also the bigotry and disrimination from ignorant people from the left who ignore medical science and insist that they aren't natural because ewww.
We're talking about a condition that is recongized in IRAN. Not only recognized, the goverment actually subsidizes sex reassignment treatments in some cases.
What you are seeing on the street is drag queens, and drag queens are NOT the same thing as trans women. Many drag queens are male identified in any case. Some trans women are outrageous, and many want anything but to bring attention to themselves as trans. "Don't get you started" on FTM? Why? I could line up 9 FTM and one XY guy and I bet you $50 you wouldn't be able to pick him out if they had clothes on.
You're telling me this is a woman?:
http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/w…
You're telling me this is a man?:
http://www.outfrontcolorado.com/blog/?p=…
I'm not talking about playing with dolls as a child or being a tomboy. I was a tomboy. Some boys like dolls and some come out gay. That's all well and good and has NOTHING to do with gender identity disorder. GID is not a phase, not a way of acting out, its a condition that shatters the lives of thousands of boys and girls, partially because they not only have to deal with the usual serving of bigotry and discrimination from the right, but also the bigotry and disrimination from ignorant people from the left who ignore medical science and insist that they aren't natural because ewww.
We're talking about a condition that is recongized in IRAN. Not only recognized, the goverment actually subsidizes sex reassignment treatments in some cases.
What you are seeing on the street is drag queens, and drag queens are NOT the same thing as trans women. Many drag queens are male identified in any case. Some trans women are outrageous, and many want anything but to bring attention to themselves as trans. "Don't get you started" on FTM? Why? I could line up 9 FTM and one XY guy and I bet you $50 you wouldn't be able to pick him out if they had clothes on.
You're telling me this is a woman?:
http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/w…
You're telling me this is a man?:
http://www.outfrontcolorado.com/blog/?p=…
35
Good job, Dan!
You have done an expert job at squeezing the idiot zit and helping bring the puss to the surface.
Why do the gays have to be burdened with this trans crap, right? We have our gender right, don't we? It's not our problem that the f-ed up perceptions of the world cause other people to experience conflict. Fuck them, right?
I'm all man. I've got my all important wiener and I will do with it what I want. Except that there are many many MANY people - ex the subject of this post - that think I am a problem for not doing what they do with their wiener.
Get it yet, selfish shitheads? We are grouped together because we are judged similarly and often pay the same price for admission - rejection, discrimination, prejudgment, assault and death.
Think you are better than the trannies? Wake up! You aren't. And for thinking you are, you are just as shitty as the phobe in Dan's post.
You have done an expert job at squeezing the idiot zit and helping bring the puss to the surface.
Why do the gays have to be burdened with this trans crap, right? We have our gender right, don't we? It's not our problem that the f-ed up perceptions of the world cause other people to experience conflict. Fuck them, right?
I'm all man. I've got my all important wiener and I will do with it what I want. Except that there are many many MANY people - ex the subject of this post - that think I am a problem for not doing what they do with their wiener.
Get it yet, selfish shitheads? We are grouped together because we are judged similarly and often pay the same price for admission - rejection, discrimination, prejudgment, assault and death.
Think you are better than the trannies? Wake up! You aren't. And for thinking you are, you are just as shitty as the phobe in Dan's post.
37
@35 Whoa there Patrick....easy, man or you're gonna break a vein somewhere.
Lots of people are constantly marginalized and discrimination exists with lots of overlap.
I don't like it when political people show up to Gay Pride to push their agenda, or environmental groups to push their agenda, etc. Doesn't mean I don't support them or I think I am better than they are. Their cause is different than mine.
Lots of people are constantly marginalized and discrimination exists with lots of overlap.
I don't like it when political people show up to Gay Pride to push their agenda, or environmental groups to push their agenda, etc. Doesn't mean I don't support them or I think I am better than they are. Their cause is different than mine.
38
#34 Two words: Chaz Bono...
We seem to be getting off topic here- and now baaaaack to the Ken Cuccinelli Virginia's rabidly anti-gay attorney general Show!
We seem to be getting off topic here- and now baaaaack to the Ken Cuccinelli Virginia's rabidly anti-gay attorney general Show!
39
Who is the hate monger here?
The one calling this guy a fag for voiceing his opinion or the ignorant one on the video tape...Or the ones that do know know anything about MTF or FTM transition because they have never taken the time to educate themselves- See what a title like this slur can cause - such mature journalism
The one calling this guy a fag for voiceing his opinion or the ignorant one on the video tape...Or the ones that do know know anything about MTF or FTM transition because they have never taken the time to educate themselves- See what a title like this slur can cause - such mature journalism
40
@25 - thanks for your reply.
I understand your point about transgenderism being involuntary. So is anorexia. And fetishes. And sexual orientation. Yet, these are all different psychological phenomena, with different implications for how we talk about and respond to them. And from what little anyone seems to know about transgenderism, it seems to overlap with all of these categories.
I can see why T chose to ride LGB's political coattails. And as someone who identifies as a freak, more power to 'em I say. And I've met plenty of Ts, including those who are fucking hot and those who look as silly as Dina Martina.
Still, from a psychological standpoint, there's something dishonest and misleading about lumping the Ts with the LGBs. This pseudo-category has only confused our understanding of both groups, and perpetuated inaccurate stereotypes (e.g., gay men really want to be women, lesbians have penis envy, etc. ).
As for Dan's original post, the outrage still seems to me entirely reflexive and entirely misplaced.
I understand your point about transgenderism being involuntary. So is anorexia. And fetishes. And sexual orientation. Yet, these are all different psychological phenomena, with different implications for how we talk about and respond to them. And from what little anyone seems to know about transgenderism, it seems to overlap with all of these categories.
I can see why T chose to ride LGB's political coattails. And as someone who identifies as a freak, more power to 'em I say. And I've met plenty of Ts, including those who are fucking hot and those who look as silly as Dina Martina.
Still, from a psychological standpoint, there's something dishonest and misleading about lumping the Ts with the LGBs. This pseudo-category has only confused our understanding of both groups, and perpetuated inaccurate stereotypes (e.g., gay men really want to be women, lesbians have penis envy, etc. ).
As for Dan's original post, the outrage still seems to me entirely reflexive and entirely misplaced.
41
@28: Stonewall ended 41 years ago, dude. The viral fear that all your old gay pals would go under a knife to be socially acceptable is dead, gone, and buried in the past.
We've a name for your head space: the "Stonewall fag" — that is, the province of the boomer gay man having temporal issues to detest all association whatsoever with transsexual people because of what happened in the early '70s when some gay men hacked themselves up while the rest were made guilty by association to a dumb general public. Old news. Guess what? I don't appreciate being lumped in with cissexual gay men like yourself, but I'll support them to be recognized as full, participatory citizens in this society.
Hartiepie, you're old enough to remember the Mattachine Society. Think about why they ever happened. Why have you championed for gay rights for 35 years? Try to remember, if at all, being in a place in your life where you were out to your private peer group, but had to keep your mouth shut nearly everywhere else, knowing what people would do if you opened it. An old gay friend of mine, now in his sixties, dealt with that in the '70s and '80s, and finally said "fuck this" when all his friends started dropping like flies when interferon wasn't cutting the mustard.
If I march, and when I've marched — and it hasn't happened for a while, since pride's just a tourist draw now — I march as a dyke. That's my sexual placement. Like you, I am related to by others as cissexual. Adorable swishy boys love to cheer us on during their gay weekend (the Dyke March is like that little itty-bitty ceding of space that the gay boys yielded after trying to make their '70s push for rights a gay-only thing, and not a gay and lesbian one).
One day, sure, it might be a bit nice to march as a transsexual. It will never, ever happen. Too many people like myself have nothing healthy to gain at this time by being known and by dousing visibility paint upon ourselves so that we're actually visible to well-meaning people like you and tossers like Dan. I guarantee you and others that it will shock you for how ordinary we are and that the visible trope does not remotely apply.
Stop being a Stonewall fag already.
More...
We've a name for your head space: the "Stonewall fag" — that is, the province of the boomer gay man having temporal issues to detest all association whatsoever with transsexual people because of what happened in the early '70s when some gay men hacked themselves up while the rest were made guilty by association to a dumb general public. Old news. Guess what? I don't appreciate being lumped in with cissexual gay men like yourself, but I'll support them to be recognized as full, participatory citizens in this society.
Hartiepie, you're old enough to remember the Mattachine Society. Think about why they ever happened. Why have you championed for gay rights for 35 years? Try to remember, if at all, being in a place in your life where you were out to your private peer group, but had to keep your mouth shut nearly everywhere else, knowing what people would do if you opened it. An old gay friend of mine, now in his sixties, dealt with that in the '70s and '80s, and finally said "fuck this" when all his friends started dropping like flies when interferon wasn't cutting the mustard.
If I march, and when I've marched — and it hasn't happened for a while, since pride's just a tourist draw now — I march as a dyke. That's my sexual placement. Like you, I am related to by others as cissexual. Adorable swishy boys love to cheer us on during their gay weekend (the Dyke March is like that little itty-bitty ceding of space that the gay boys yielded after trying to make their '70s push for rights a gay-only thing, and not a gay and lesbian one).
One day, sure, it might be a bit nice to march as a transsexual. It will never, ever happen. Too many people like myself have nothing healthy to gain at this time by being known and by dousing visibility paint upon ourselves so that we're actually visible to well-meaning people like you and tossers like Dan. I guarantee you and others that it will shock you for how ordinary we are and that the visible trope does not remotely apply.
Stop being a Stonewall fag already.
42
@37 - Did Dan post yesterday about the WA AG being an enivronmentatlist or a Palestinian? I don't think that was what was being highlighted then or today.
Distinguishing between causes not the same idea as determining a heirarchy and choosing which population has more to lose - miscategorized and maligned by association.
The comments here are turning into the dumb angry gay mob that has been creeping up repeatedly over the past year - especially when the ENDA bill comes up in conversation. And it is coming up again. And the comments on this post are exactly why what Dan did yesterday is a problem.
I might be angry, but it's not without cause.
Distinguishing between causes not the same idea as determining a heirarchy and choosing which population has more to lose - miscategorized and maligned by association.
The comments here are turning into the dumb angry gay mob that has been creeping up repeatedly over the past year - especially when the ENDA bill comes up in conversation. And it is coming up again. And the comments on this post are exactly why what Dan did yesterday is a problem.
I might be angry, but it's not without cause.
43
There's transphobia in the gay community and homophobia in the trans community and transphobia in the trans community and homophobia in the gay community. And everyone seems to pile on the lesbians. Mocking it from either end doesn't make you any less of a dick (Dan), but it doesn't necessarily kill one's credibility either or make them an enemy any more than ignoring it will make it go away.
I mean, jeez, we coddle our straight cisgendered allies even though many of them still have viewpoints that are opposed to us in certain ways. The accepting mom that believes in traditional marriage, the friend who still calls you by your birth name, etcetera. Obama. We still turn to them fairly reliably, and more than a few of us have to slip into finger-wagging reminder mode from time to time.
I think we all need to have a rousing game of laser tag, that should smooth out differences.
Or, you know, do what we're doing now and shittalk our way through our frustrations with each other. <3
I mean, jeez, we coddle our straight cisgendered allies even though many of them still have viewpoints that are opposed to us in certain ways. The accepting mom that believes in traditional marriage, the friend who still calls you by your birth name, etcetera. Obama. We still turn to them fairly reliably, and more than a few of us have to slip into finger-wagging reminder mode from time to time.
I think we all need to have a rousing game of laser tag, that should smooth out differences.
Or, you know, do what we're doing now and shittalk our way through our frustrations with each other. <3
44
@seandr, as I see it, the GLBT series is "community of people with inborn sexual characteristics that lead to discrimination". Its an envieronment-sensitive community. If, for instance, lesbianism was acceptable in society, with all rights and responsibilities, but male sexuality weren't, then the "L" wouldn't belong there. Some people don't think the "B"s should be there because after all they can choose to lead lives that don't open them up for beatings and such (this is not my position, BTW).
You're right that Ts are different from Ls, Gs and Bs. Being an L, G or B is not a medical condition. Being a T (I'm thinking gender identity disorder here, specifically) often is. So yes, in that sense they are different because they suffer from what, for want of a better term, can be considered a mental illness. However unlike all other mental illnesses, treatment to try to fix the mind is often totally ineffective and hence treatment seeks to make the physical reality sync with the mental reality, given that the latter can't be changed and the former can, to a certain degree.
So I see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree. I think Ts are just fine as a part of the least pronouncible acronym ever. The day any of the letters gains full, unquestioned, simply assumed acceptance and rights, they go off the list, and that includes the Gs. Here's hoping the list disappears soon.
You're right that Ts are different from Ls, Gs and Bs. Being an L, G or B is not a medical condition. Being a T (I'm thinking gender identity disorder here, specifically) often is. So yes, in that sense they are different because they suffer from what, for want of a better term, can be considered a mental illness. However unlike all other mental illnesses, treatment to try to fix the mind is often totally ineffective and hence treatment seeks to make the physical reality sync with the mental reality, given that the latter can't be changed and the former can, to a certain degree.
So I see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree. I think Ts are just fine as a part of the least pronouncible acronym ever. The day any of the letters gains full, unquestioned, simply assumed acceptance and rights, they go off the list, and that includes the Gs. Here's hoping the list disappears soon.
45
I think we all need to have a rousing game of laser tag, that should smooth out differences.
Over a drinking game of quarters. Instead of quarters, a list of names thrown about gets posted to the wall, and getting caught saying one of them means you take the drink.
It would make us all alcoholics yet. :D
46
When he said that thing about having to integrate people society did anyone else picture a mob marching lock-step to a Solidarity Service?
Also, when people ask you about teh gay, buddy, it's better not to hem and haw and shift your eyes down to the left.
Also, when people ask you about teh gay, buddy, it's better not to hem and haw and shift your eyes down to the left.
47
@45: You can get Dan really drunk by throwing in obscure references to certain anti-GLBT activists like Lou Mabon. He will namedrop folks like Mabon in a heartbeat during a political argument.
And when he's drunk, the classic lesbian game of "make the drunk gay man sing along with the jukebox divas" can begin.
And when he's drunk, the classic lesbian game of "make the drunk gay man sing along with the jukebox divas" can begin.
49
@48: AHA! YOU ADMITTED IT!
I knew it. From now on, if I'm ever at the 'rose or similar, I'm only drinking O'Doulls or soda water. I will not be "running up that hill" ever again. You will not catch me telling you what some say love is (hint: it is a body of water of some sort, but also a cutting implement).
But I will sing along with Kylie Minogue. I can't break ALL stereotypes, now.
I knew it. From now on, if I'm ever at the 'rose or similar, I'm only drinking O'Doulls or soda water. I will not be "running up that hill" ever again. You will not catch me telling you what some say love is (hint: it is a body of water of some sort, but also a cutting implement).
But I will sing along with Kylie Minogue. I can't break ALL stereotypes, now.
50
I'm late to the whole Rob Mckenna/trans thing and now this - but I think what happened was that Dan's joke died on the vine about three lines in. That's all. The soul of wit got waay overstretched there and it became unreadable as humor - hence the confusion by many who took it seriously. Dan's usually pretty witty, but no one can bat a thousand, all right? There are gonna be some train wrecks.
Dan's not going for a joke here though - this is a serious suggestion that Cuccinelli is a self-loathing closet case in denial. Could be right. Personally I don't get a gay vibe from him, though. What I do get is a Christian vibe, what with the emphasis on "acts" - i.e. love the sinner, hate the sin. To me that's almost as creepy as a closet case.
Dan's not going for a joke here though - this is a serious suggestion that Cuccinelli is a self-loathing closet case in denial. Could be right. Personally I don't get a gay vibe from him, though. What I do get is a Christian vibe, what with the emphasis on "acts" - i.e. love the sinner, hate the sin. To me that's almost as creepy as a closet case.
56
Jesus. Folks will flip out over Dan's poorly written blog about Washington's AG but Rupert Everett gets many positive, supportive comments for degrading an entire group of gay men for wanting marriage equality and biological children. So, gays are somehow inferior to straights and therefore shouldn't be having their own biological children??? Because, of course, we demand that every straight couple adopt before trying infertility treatments???
Folks really need to learn what an attack is and what a crappy bullshit blog entry is. Dan's blog about the AG wasn't funny or cute but it certainly wasn't an "attack".
But, hey, as long as we attack gay men for having their own bio kids, it's all good. Since we never hear that argument leveled against lesbians who use a sperm donor, I guess lesbians are in the clear for wanting their own biological children. Got to write this down. Must make sure that I hate monger about the right person or group that LGBT community is targeting this week.
Folks really need to learn what an attack is and what a crappy bullshit blog entry is. Dan's blog about the AG wasn't funny or cute but it certainly wasn't an "attack".
But, hey, as long as we attack gay men for having their own bio kids, it's all good. Since we never hear that argument leveled against lesbians who use a sperm donor, I guess lesbians are in the clear for wanting their own biological children. Got to write this down. Must make sure that I hate monger about the right person or group that LGBT community is targeting this week.
57
#13 the "Rob McKenna is FTM" joke at The Stranger started a long time ago, and near as I can tell has more to do with the fact that he kind of looks womanish than anything remotely as clever or meaningful as "its something he would be insulted by".
Yesterday, Dan was--at best--trying to revive a fairly lame and positively insulting inside joke.
Yesterday, Dan was--at best--trying to revive a fairly lame and positively insulting inside joke.
59
"My sneakers are swimming with the fish and dead Boeing planes all because you made me do that. You owe me $150."
60
Ugh, I'm a Virginian and I can say with confidence I did NOT vote for this douche bag. He's recently made an attempt to get all public universities and other institutions funded by the state government to *remove* sexual orientation from their discrimination policies because the VA government has not deemed that sexual orientation is legally protected from discrimination. If he's not jamming dick up his ass, I'd like to know what hard, uncomfortable thing has been stuck up there all this time.
61
@59: It's fine, I've found a fox, it let me take it in my hands. Its little heart is beating so fast I think I can scare it into having a heart attack. Then we can sell the pelt.
63
sometimes the internet makes me feel very alone... like even groups that i identify with specifically because they seem to be tolerant, supportive, and inclusive, are still mostly made up of people for whom empathy is impossible. some of these comments have upset me a lot more than anything Dan ever offhandedly said about trans folks. if we can't see outside of ourselves and TRY to be respectful of other peoples orientations/proclivities/whatever, how can we expect straight middle americans to do the same for us? it's hypocrisy.
thanks to lynx, patrick, telsa, baconcat et al for being reasonable and much more articulate than i am.
by the way, i am a straight married woman.
thanks to lynx, patrick, telsa, baconcat et al for being reasonable and much more articulate than i am.
by the way, i am a straight married woman.
65
@64: Oh, there'll be bears, I'm quite certain of it. It's a wild world.
But you might want to take a pass on all the beavers.
But you might want to take a pass on all the beavers.
66
"Any politician who's down on hummuhseckshals in public is going down on hummuhsekshals in private."
--Bill Maher (?)
--Bill Maher (?)
67
He reminds me of someone at my gym who thinks his wedding ring will protect him from being noticed when he ogles the college boys in the locker room.
Also it's a little obvious, once he says "the acts," that part of his mind goes off and starts fantasizing.
He's cuter than Haggard, Craig or Ashburn -- so far. If he doesn't come out soon, though, he will have a case of major case of gayface like they do.
Also it's a little obvious, once he says "the acts," that part of his mind goes off and starts fantasizing.
He's cuter than Haggard, Craig or Ashburn -- so far. If he doesn't come out soon, though, he will have a case of major case of gayface like they do.
68
@65: No, I said "dam, beavers!"
Clearly there's been a misunderstanding and now the Gloria Steinem Memorial League is screaming things about what seems to be a town in Minnesota. Or maybe they mean Mississauga. That's a city in Canada-- yes, there are beavers in Canada, but why would I care about a country with more Peter Mansbridges per capita than any other country in the world?
Clearly there's been a misunderstanding and now the Gloria Steinem Memorial League is screaming things about what seems to be a town in Minnesota. Or maybe they mean Mississauga. That's a city in Canada-- yes, there are beavers in Canada, but why would I care about a country with more Peter Mansbridges per capita than any other country in the world?
70
Canada has but one Peter Mansbridge (see 21:23), which Americans use to enter the country from, uh, Montana into Saskatchewan.
71
That is far too many Peter Mansbridges for anyone. Then again, he does have a great deal of admiration for queens, I hear. Strangely, liberal Canada seems to mock him for his love of queens.
I for one say "bring on the queens"!
I for one say "bring on the queens"!
72
I think Jenny Boylan said it well regarding what the T has in common with the L, G, and B: not much, except that we tend to get beat up by the same people.
singing cynic - nice comment (#63). There's just a few trolls here; in fact they might be the same person, the tone is so similar. It's disappointing to be reminded that we have to share the planet with such people, but it's best just to ignore them. I for one feel good about knowing I have allies such as yourself out there.
singing cynic - nice comment (#63). There's just a few trolls here; in fact they might be the same person, the tone is so similar. It's disappointing to be reminded that we have to share the planet with such people, but it's best just to ignore them. I for one feel good about knowing I have allies such as yourself out there.
73
I think it's pretty bizarre that the reason the Rob McKenna post was inappropriate was because it's apparently making fun of him for "looking like a woman," but practically every other comment here is about "gay face."
I mean, at least you can quantify looking like a woman. "Gay face" is a straight (no pun intended) value judgment that is almost inherently homophobic (unless, of course, you're using it satirically). Trying to draw a line between this post and the Rob McKenna one seems like it's pretty much inevitably going to be determined by what your pet issue is. Or how good of a mind reader you are to determine that Dan really hates trannies in his heart of hearts.
I mean, at least you can quantify looking like a woman. "Gay face" is a straight (no pun intended) value judgment that is almost inherently homophobic (unless, of course, you're using it satirically). Trying to draw a line between this post and the Rob McKenna one seems like it's pretty much inevitably going to be determined by what your pet issue is. Or how good of a mind reader you are to determine that Dan really hates trannies in his heart of hearts.
77
Maybe it's 'cause I'm from NY, but who gives a shit what you call this person...an asshole by any other name...still love you...keep going, I like you in your raw state.
78
I'm still waiting for the day when a P is added to LGBT. Pedos may not experience the same kind of discrimination as teh gayz usually because we generally aren't "out". But it is an inborn sexual characteristic that is definitely not accepted by society, way more so than LGBTs. On another note, I've always thought the L was redundant. Don't lesbians consider themselves gay?
79
@73 - I posted #67. The only times I've ever heard or seen the term "gay face" used has been by gay people to describe self-described straight men who appear to be obvious closet cases (Ashburn, Haggard, et al.). My nameless gym member guy is an example: if he fools anyone, then they're just not paying attention.
If "gayface" has wider usage, I haven't been aware of it. I use it not as a homophobic term, but as a way of calling closet cases on their closetedness.
If "gayface" has wider usage, I haven't been aware of it. I use it not as a homophobic term, but as a way of calling closet cases on their closetedness.
80
@78: The thing is, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender people can indulge their sexual desires with consenting partners, whereas any attempt by a pedophile to do so is immoral by any standard, hurtful to the child involved, and just plain wrong. Pedophilia is not just an identity like the aforementioned others; it is a condition that good people (like the Gold Star Pedophiles Dan wrote about a few weeks back) fight to suppress and bad people allow to make them into criminals. There's a definite reason that pedophiles aren't accepted by society, one that in all honesty makes perfect sense.
Where I come from, we do say LGBTQ, however. Pedophiles who want to avoid hurting children could definitely consider themselves Queer.
Where I come from, we do say LGBTQ, however. Pedophiles who want to avoid hurting children could definitely consider themselves Queer.
81
All you Trans-exclusionists, especially those of you who seem to think it's some kind of personal choice, how do you feel about people who are born intersexed? That is, not clearly physically male or female. Look up CAIS, mosaicism, chimera, Klinefelter's. Check out the ISNA.ORG website.
There's a lot of stuff about prenatal gender development we're still learning, and gender identity that we don't know. For all we know, TG/TS conditions are as physical as IS ones, only centered in the development of the brain instead of the body.
Regardless, LGBT is a human rights movement. The point of it is that every person should have the right to live a decent life in society, with some semblance of legal equality.
As far as I'm concerned, you can either be for human rights or not. Once you start picking, these humans, not those humans, you're not standing for any serious principles anymore.
There's a lot of stuff about prenatal gender development we're still learning, and gender identity that we don't know. For all we know, TG/TS conditions are as physical as IS ones, only centered in the development of the brain instead of the body.
Regardless, LGBT is a human rights movement. The point of it is that every person should have the right to live a decent life in society, with some semblance of legal equality.
As far as I'm concerned, you can either be for human rights or not. Once you start picking, these humans, not those humans, you're not standing for any serious principles anymore.
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