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News & ArtsThursday, March 25, 2010
Homo / News Trans Student Suspended from Same School in Mississippi That Canceled Prom, Later Hounded Out of Town
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:19 AM
Originally posted late in the day yesterday. Reposting.
Constance McMillen wasn't the first student at Itawamba Agricultural High School to contact the ACLU this year.
- Juin Baize
Baize, his mother, and his two sisters moved to Fulton, Mississippi, from New Harmony, Indiana, to live with Baize's grandmother at the beginning of the year. (For now Baize says he prefers to use male pronouns.) Baize, age sixteen, enrolled at Itwamba Agricultural High School, where Constance McMillen was also a student. McMilllen clearly recalled Baize's first—and only—day at Itawamba Agricultural.
"People were talking about him all day, trying to get a look at him," said McMillen. "It was insane, it was ridiculous, it made me so mad. They said he was causing a distraction with what he was wearing but it was a half day of school and people didn’t have time to get used to him."
The other students wouldn't be given a chance to get used to him: the next time Baize came to school, according Kristy Bennett, legal director of the ACLU of Mississippi, Baize was given a suspension notice and sent home. When Juin returned to school after his first suspension, he was suspended again.
“Juin’s case was a situation where a transgender student wanted to attend school dressed in feminine clothing," said Bennett, "and the school district would not even let him attend school."
The reasons for a student's suspension are supposed to be noted on the suspension form, according to Bennett, but that part of Baize's suspension notice was left blank. So the ACLU sent a letter to the school on Baize's behalf asking the school administration for the reasoning behind his suspension—information the ACLU would need in order to challenge Baize's suspension in court.
"But the school would not talk to us about the situation," said Bennett.
Baize's suspension was written about in the local paper in February—which prompted Baize's grandmother to order her daughter and her three grandchildren to move out of her house. I spoke with Baize's mother, Beverly Bertsinger, last week. At the time she and her three children were staying in the home of a friend-of-a-friend.
“If I had the money, I would move the kids somewhere else, somewhere they would be safe,” Bertsinger told me. “I wish we could move somewhere for my son, somewhere a transgender teenager would be safe. I worry about him constantly. Everywhere he goes he goes with me.”
Baize's appearance and the fact that he, unlike Constance McMillen, was perceived as a trouble-making outsider made living in Fulton increasingly impossible. Beverly Baize couldn't find work because, she believes, Fulton is a small town and people disapproved of her son. Juin was harassed when he left the house, according to Beverly Baize, so she stopped letting him go out alone and then stopped letting him go out at all.
“I’m so afraid for him,” Bertsinger told me last week. “I support him. I buy him the clothing to wear as a female. I just want him to be safe.”
Things reached a crisis stage over the weekend when the friends-of-friends who had been putting up Bertsinger and her three children told her that Juin would have to leave. Bertsinger called some old friends who live in Pensacola, Florida, and asked if they would take Juin in. Her friends drove to Fulton the same night to pick Juin up. Bertsinger is granting temporary guardianship of her son to her friends until, she says, she can find a job and save enough money to move to Florida with her other two children.
The ACLU won't be pursuing Juin's case.
“Juin not being in Fulton makes it difficult for us to pursue any kind of legal action here,” says Bennett. "And personally, I feel it may be a better decision for Juin to relocate and move on with his life.”
Juin Baize agrees.
“There’s this thing here called Florida Virtual School,” Juin told me today, “and I’m going to enroll in that online and do that until next year. And from what I’ve heard the high school near here is very accepting. So I’m going to start fresh."
“I’m in a much better place now."
UPDATE: Folks are emailing me to ask if there's any way to help Juin out—and there is. Make a donation to help get Juin settled in Pensacola and help his mom and sisters move to Florida. I've checked into Juin's situation and I'm confident that—although his life has been chaotic—any monies donated will be spent appropriately.
[Note: We are no longer collecting donations. Thanks to everyone who pitched in!]
In '08 Sloggers helped raised more than $5,000 to pay for the funeral of Duanna Johnson, a transwoman and a victim of police brutality who was murdered in Memphis, Tennessee. According to Johnson's family, half of the money raised for Johnson's funeral came from donors in Seattle after a call for donations appeared on Slog. Let's see what we can raise for a trans kid who's still alive, shall we? (Oh, and folks who want me to apologize for this: Okay, I will—after we raise at least 2K for Juin and his family. Otherwise, meh, I'll just keep hating on trans people like the raging anti-trans beegoat that I am.)
4
Not that it is an excuse for the town's craptastic behavior, but didn't Mother Baize realize what it would be like to subject her child to the judgment of a small town in Mississippi??
Her claim "I just want him to be safe" rings as very disingenuous.
Her claim "I just want him to be safe" rings as very disingenuous.
5
Where's the "Christian" outrage over this? Huh? I hear about all these "liberal" Christians who say they stand up for GLBT rights and in both of these cases I have seen next to ZERO outrage.
So much for religion providing a strong moral compass or moral leadership.
So much for religion providing a strong moral compass or moral leadership.
7
I want to help. How can we help? Jesus, makes me wish I could move this poor kid to austin and take him in myself.
9
@4
Southern Indiana and Northern Mississippi are different only in how the bigotry is expressed, not in how prevalent it is.
Southern Indiana and Northern Mississippi are different only in how the bigotry is expressed, not in how prevalent it is.
10
Juin--we support you! As you can see you are not alone!
Dan--where can we send financial support to the family? As olechka said, I want to help!
Dan--where can we send financial support to the family? As olechka said, I want to help!
13
@2
Why isn't there an organization that moves more LGBT-friendly people into places like this? Similar to the buses that went down south during the civil rights movement in the 60s.
Why isn't there an organization that moves more LGBT-friendly people into places like this? Similar to the buses that went down south during the civil rights movement in the 60s.
15
@5 - This is small town Mississippi, where the Baptists and Pentecostals rule. You won't find liberal Christians there.
If it is any consolation, in small city, Louisiana, my congregation has always stood up for and been vocal about civil rights. We were the first white congregation in town to support desegregation, and many of our members in the 50s and 60s were very active in the civil rights movement here. We have also been welcoming of gay and lesbian people at least as long as I have been a member, and many of us (including myself) have actively participated in equal rights activities here. I want us to take the next step and become an "official" congregation of our denomination's GLBT ministry, but some of the old folks are afraid that will put the congregation at risk from the bigots in this city. They are probably right, but it won't stop me from lobbying our congregational council nonetheless.
If it is any consolation, in small city, Louisiana, my congregation has always stood up for and been vocal about civil rights. We were the first white congregation in town to support desegregation, and many of our members in the 50s and 60s were very active in the civil rights movement here. We have also been welcoming of gay and lesbian people at least as long as I have been a member, and many of us (including myself) have actively participated in equal rights activities here. I want us to take the next step and become an "official" congregation of our denomination's GLBT ministry, but some of the old folks are afraid that will put the congregation at risk from the bigots in this city. They are probably right, but it won't stop me from lobbying our congregational council nonetheless.
16
Can someone please tell me what the fuck is up with all the accusations of anti-trans bias for Dan? The last trans-related posts I saw were one blasting a trans man for betraying his own on health care and this. Both seem wholeheartedly supportive of trans folks, so what gives?
17
This stuff breaks my heart. At least Juin sounds optimistic about the future. It's a shame that people are subjected to so much hate simply for being who they are. Intolerance of intolerance is the only acceptable form of intolerance.
18
oh lord your sea is so great,and my boat is so small. thank you so much for the kindness of stranger...s
19
On a more related note, massive kudos to the friends in Florida stepping up to take in this boy (hard to write it that way, looks like a girl to me). They're better family than Juin's own grandmother, it seems.
21
@16 -- the attorney general of Washington State is not a transgender FTM. Dan's taking heat for that post because he used the accusation of being FTM to denigrate the AG for being a jackass. The trans community and its supporters are upset because Dan's post equated being transgender with something bad and/or as a slur.
22
@16 - McKenna isn't actually trans. That post was using the trans label as a way to slam McKenna, who definitely deserves derision... but the issue is using the label of transgendered as an insult.
23
Juin is, at the very least, lucky to have his (that's apparently what he prefers :/) mother's support.
I just wish that it was easier for him.
I just wish that it was easier for him.
24
I think the Florida thing indicates we haven't heard the last of this story.
And, uh... virtual school? Oh god.
And, uh... virtual school? Oh god.
25
@16 - McKenna, the man who betrayed the health care bill, isn't actually trans. However, he does in fact look like a f2m who doesn't quite pass.
Whereas I saw this as funny (some trans look like hot dudes/chicks after treatment, some just look like trans - no big deal, we can't all be supermodels) and a clever way to turn conservative prejudices against themselves, others were deeply, mortally offended.
Whereas I saw this as funny (some trans look like hot dudes/chicks after treatment, some just look like trans - no big deal, we can't all be supermodels) and a clever way to turn conservative prejudices against themselves, others were deeply, mortally offended.
26
@21, 22 and 25, thanks. I basically ate the whole thing hook line and sinker. I remember thinking it sure was odd that a FTM would be elected as a Republican, but didn't ponder it more. You're right seandr that he does look like a FTM that didn't quite finish the treatment.
I can see where some trans folks would be offended, but the slog isn't exactly for the thin skinned no matter who you are. Certainly the monogamous have it worse off than any trans folks here. Understanding the joke I'm guessing that Dan meant it to be offensive to the kind of people who find being trans repulsive A.K.A, the state AG and not actual trans people. Not his best work, but hardly qualifies him for the transphobe of the day award.
I can see where some trans folks would be offended, but the slog isn't exactly for the thin skinned no matter who you are. Certainly the monogamous have it worse off than any trans folks here. Understanding the joke I'm guessing that Dan meant it to be offensive to the kind of people who find being trans repulsive A.K.A, the state AG and not actual trans people. Not his best work, but hardly qualifies him for the transphobe of the day award.
27
This breaks my heart. I hope this episode doesn't mess the poor kid up for life. And while it sounds like he's happier now, I can't imagine things are a whole lot better in the "you-can't-see-your-dying-wife-and-neither-can-her-children" state.
This kid should be out, proud, and safe enough to go to a non-online school. Against all odds, it looks like he's got two out of three down.
This kid should be out, proud, and safe enough to go to a non-online school. Against all odds, it looks like he's got two out of three down.
28
I don't quite agree that Dan's post was using trans as a negative thing, but I just don't get the post at all. Did McKenna have a habit of accusing other people of being trans (or gay) without proof? Then it would make sense. When Dan did that whole thing of implying a reporter was blowing goats, it was because that reporter had been using the same phrasing to imply that other people did unsavory things with no proof.
29
It really floors me even from here in Columbia South Carolina that there are still places this bad in the United States. I mean, seriously, WTF? It's not like these asshole can plead ignorance anymore, either. Makes me want to hit the place with a daisy cutter.
30
This is really obscene, and hopefully it answers some posters' questions on the other thread about why there's a "T" in GLBT.
31
"Itawamba" sounds like something Bib Fortuna would say. (If you don't know, Bib is Jabba the Hutt's right-nub man in Return of the Jedi.)
33
@4 - I'm kind of with you here. Doesn't it seem strange that she'd let her 16-year old go to (his) first day of school, at a new school, in a small town, in Mississippi, in relatively fierce trans mode... Jesus, even as I write that - wow. That's like sending your kid into a Palestinian hookah parlor with a glowing Star of David on his chest (not a perfect analogy, but you get what I mean). What's she trying to do, get him killed? Itawamba's in the wrong, sure, but what about that mother?
34
and if it counts for anything, Juin is unbelievably cute. How can anyone hate him/her like that? What a fucked up place... There has to be a way we can help.
35
To those who are blaming the mother: if she forbade her kid from wearing the clothes of the gender he identifies with, you'd be all over her for that. The villain here is Itawamba Agricultural. His mother just wants him to be happy, and he's lucky to have her love and support.
37
@36 Yeah, I can't believe it took sloggers so long to point that out. I would totally do her if I was into underage trannies.
38
Glad you finally posted this one, Dan. I found out about reading the comments on Facebook. This situation is reprehensible and those in authority at the Itawamba high school have no business calling themselves "educators." The word "educator" conjures the image of a caring, nurturing person and these people clearly have hearts of stone.
39
Much better, Dan. Let's see if you can remain civil regarding transfolk, advocate for their civil rights like they were your own, and never use them as a slur again. Here's to hoping.
40
To the Mom-deriders - be fair. Unless you're from the South, you have no idea how hard it is to just imagine packing up and starting over somewhere else in the country, with no connections and family. And they sound terribly poor.
41
@4 and 33 - so what would you say if I told you I faced some slut shaming as a child - not even a teenager, a child - for being female and wearing shorts? That I still get derogatory comments aimed at me in my hometown for having short hair? (Obviously, I do not live in the West. Nor am I transgendered, I just live somewhere fucked up enough that it happened.) Is that my parents' fault for not wanting their child to grow up in the same repressed, frankly second-class way the girls around me were? Should they have also married me off at fifteen to some older lech so I could fit in better with the crowd? Since, you know, I'm looked down on for not being married yet. It's clearly all their fault.
Sorry. Shaming the mother here doesn't work. If a mother who cares enough about her kid to accept who he is and support him as much as she has, and that mother moves to Itawamba to live with HER mother (who seems fundie too, by the fact that she kicked them out the minute things went south), you can bet your last dollar that she wasn't moving there because she really liked the scenery; she was out of options.
Sorry. Shaming the mother here doesn't work. If a mother who cares enough about her kid to accept who he is and support him as much as she has, and that mother moves to Itawamba to live with HER mother (who seems fundie too, by the fact that she kicked them out the minute things went south), you can bet your last dollar that she wasn't moving there because she really liked the scenery; she was out of options.
42
@33 - A kid who's already living trans at 16 already knows that there's going to be shit to deal with in a new school. The article doesn't say that he went on 'fierce trans mode' (and that the hell is 'trans mode', anyway? You're trans or you're not. Wearing boy's clothes wasn't going to hide him). He may actually have been in relatively modest/unisex clothing. If he wasn't, then the fact that he chose to go in as he is is a testament to his courage and the security that his mother has nurtured in him. I expect his thought was more about getting the shock over with immediately so everyone could get back to regular life ASAP, than of making a Statement.
And come on...the only person more likely to be the target of attacks of any sort, than a trans kid in a brand new small-town school?
Is a trans kid in a brand new small-town school with his Mommy in tow.
And come on...the only person more likely to be the target of attacks of any sort, than a trans kid in a brand new small-town school?
Is a trans kid in a brand new small-town school with his Mommy in tow.
43
@20 I was thinking the same thing. I mean I don't mean to sound too rude but I remember high school, and if students were expected to call someone who, I actually thought was female before I read the post, it would complicate an already complex issue for these kids to understand. Now that's not like some kind of excuse for bigotry, but I kinda see how this situation is different from say, denying kids access to prom (1 night of possible gasps vs 4 years of high school). I dunno you know, it's not like I'm saying at all this kind of person wouldn't have been accepted somewhere in the school, but I would think their concerns might be of safety too. I was teased and beat up because I liked computers and audio equipment, and all their ridicule was of how effeminate such activities made me (and I still don't understand why they wanted to "mushroom print" my face).
I also agree with a previous post about how the parents might need some help too. It's good that he moved on, sometimes people just refuse to be polite.
I also agree with a previous post about how the parents might need some help too. It's good that he moved on, sometimes people just refuse to be polite.
44
When the Constance thing first went down, I recall that comments from the school administrators were on the lines of 'if she shows up in a tux, it's not that bad, but what if some guy then shows up in a dress?'
I think we now know the origin of that bit of reactionary paranoia.
I think we now know the origin of that bit of reactionary paranoia.
45
Now I really hope Constance & the ACLU wage legal war on these backwoods morons and bankrupt their shitty corrupt little board of education back past the present stone age they're in.
46
Beverly Bertsinger is a wonderful mother. I hope that the family is able to be together very soon.
47
I don't want to minimize lesbian/gay civil rights struggles, but that's America: gay teen can't attend a dance one day, trans teen isn't allowed to go to school at all and is run out of town.
People are much more tolerant in Seattle, but it's still relative: trans people have it rough on a daily basis. Be nice to your trans friends.
And it's not like that everywhere. Parts of South Asia (like India), Iran, Southeast Asia, island nations, aboriginal cultures, and others are relatively more accepting of trans people than gay people.
People are much more tolerant in Seattle, but it's still relative: trans people have it rough on a daily basis. Be nice to your trans friends.
And it's not like that everywhere. Parts of South Asia (like India), Iran, Southeast Asia, island nations, aboriginal cultures, and others are relatively more accepting of trans people than gay people.
48
When this incident first happened and Juin contacted the ACLU it was suggested that she meet a few people in this state. I was one of those people. I am a woman with a trans history myself, also living in MS. As soon as I heard about this case I found Juin on Facebook and we instantly became friends. She and I talk all the time and have talked many times about everything that has happened with this case. Over the past few months, she and I have become more like sisters. I've always tried to help her anyway I could. I know how hard it is for a transwoman to make it in this world and so I expressed to her just how important a good education is for us. I want her to finish high school. I want her to go to college, and I will continue to support her and do whatever I can for her.
I thank you all for showing your support of her and for spreading the news of this travesty. I know this means a lot to her. It really is a sad situation when a school board puts their ignorance and fears above what is really important... the education of a child who already has a lot stacked against her and needs all the support she can get.
I thank you all for showing your support of her and for spreading the news of this travesty. I know this means a lot to her. It really is a sad situation when a school board puts their ignorance and fears above what is really important... the education of a child who already has a lot stacked against her and needs all the support she can get.
49
On the other hand, 43, these types of things really aren't that hard for kids to wrap their heads around if they have the proper guidance. All the administration and teachers really had to do was make it clear that the school is a safe place for all students and that nobody was going to get away with behaving inappropriately or with bullying any other student. I'm under no illusion that that would have actually happened at this particular school, or that if it had some of the parents wouldn't have revolted, but that's really all it would take.
50
@ 44 my thoughts exactly.
In Japan, it's totally cool to be FtM. The tradition has been here for thousands of years, with Kabuki and whatnot.
Hey, anyone read that that boy in some other state (martin I think his name is) who got to go to his prom because of Constance's case has now been booted from his parents house?
In Japan, it's totally cool to be FtM. The tradition has been here for thousands of years, with Kabuki and whatnot.
Hey, anyone read that that boy in some other state (martin I think his name is) who got to go to his prom because of Constance's case has now been booted from his parents house?
51
yes....I have since scrolled down and noticed he picked up on it...my bad for not reading carefully V_V
52
I attended Florida Virtual School. If it helps to comment about it, it's an excellent online high school program. The only missing thing is that being home schooled in any way can preclude you from having real friends. I've made loads of friends online, but that doesn't mean I don't wish I had a group of friends offline. But, it's not really in the cards for me anyway in the rural area I live in.
54
Poor kid. It's heartbreaking that he needs to go to a "virtual school" instead of a real one. Bigots make me sick. I hope he can keep emotionally strong, get a good education, and move somewhere more supportive and openhearted, like a West Coast city.
55
I want to say I am sorry for some reason. I guess it's being part of the human race. I am sickened that this can happen. But it does and I am sorry.
I am ignorant on why the ACLU is not going to do anything. I would think at the very least seek damages against the school to help relocate this women and her kids.
I am ignorant on why the ACLU is not going to do anything. I would think at the very least seek damages against the school to help relocate this women and her kids.
56
@50 - you mean MtF I assume and yes, there are a lot of femme boys in Tokyo. Crossdressing seems to be a cool thing to do in Japan.
58
FYI, Mr. Savage--moving this post to the top of the queue still doesn't count as an apology for the McKenna thing.
61
What a brave soul. I'm grateful to read that he feels like he is in a much better place, and he is able to continue getting an education online. Is there a way to help him and his family out?
63
Would've been nice if a link to this story was made available. The mother might have some blame here because she should've taken this kid first to the appropriate specialists that can diagnose, treat and help in a transitioning if they determine that the individual does have a gender identity disorder. Gender transitioning is something that rarely should be recommended for minors.
65
If the kid in question had shown up in a wheelchair with a service monkey there would have been just as much "disruption". And the other kids would have been told to be nice to the poor cripple and not to stare. No one would have dreamed that kicking the kid out of school was an appropriate response.
66
It's Ms. Leek, actually--and saying "I'm so sorry, I should have included a link to the Facebook group against McKenna's actions" is not an apology.
69
@67 She's just buying him girl clothes ( "I buy him the clothing to wear as a female.") and allowing him the present himself in public in them without having sought professional help first.
70
@69, And why does he need professional help? I wasn't aware that wearing women's clothing was a disorder.
71
Hilarious! What young man would want to wear the lovely and demure clothing reserved for women...girls...REAL women? That person needs psychiatric analysis.
The person that uncritically upholds ridiculous notions of gender needs more help if you ask me.
The person that uncritically upholds ridiculous notions of gender needs more help if you ask me.
72
69: the big problem here is that you clearly don't have the first clue what you're talking about. You obviously think that transgender is the same as transsexual, and that the aim and end result of both is sex reassignment surgery. For one thing, whenn you start from such a position of ignorance, you have no business recommending anyone seek professional help. For another, it's obvious that this boy's mother is desperately poor; to get a consultation with a specialist would require expensive travel and a substantial consultation fee that she probably can't afford. Get it?
74
And also, what 70 and 71 said. The biggest problem of all is clearly the school administration, which could have avoided any problems for everybody by simply enforcing a policy of zero tolerance for bullying and discrimination. If for no other reason, Juin would have won a court case against this school just like Constance McMillen had her First Amendment right to wear traditionally male clothing recognized by the court.
76
@70 Wearing permanently the clothing of the opposite gender is not indicative some sort of identity disorder ?
77
Loveschild, I increasingly sense that you only love children until they're born. After that, you'd rather let them die in a fire.
#1: If you come out as transsexual when you're 14 or 16 or 18, you do it of your own volition. You do it because the will to live is too great to ignore. Take it from someone who's been there, did that, got the commemorative coffee mug, etc. It is superfluous to have someone be "qualified" to "recommend" it or not. So that argument is moot.
#2: The problem with professional help is that professionalization of an educated person does not qualify them as Hippocratic and/or free of their own ulterior motives when advising a client. This is why the psychiatrization of transsexual people was such a massive failure and fucked up a lot of kids. I bristle when I hear someone suggest "that transwhatever kid needs help." Bollocks. That kid needs to be loved without question or judgment, period. You want that kid to be the very best they can reach to be. That, my dear, is the gesture of love.
This is why I know I know you don't actually love children once they're born. Familial/parental love of the next generation does not constitute throwing that next generation to the professional dogs and hoping they can fend for themselves. That's all it really comes down to, sweetheart.
Your proselytizing on this sums as an endorsement for non-consensual abuse of kids who deserve love, not "treatment". These are the same "professionals" people like you will turn to in order to also "un-gay" their child so when they become adults, they don't marry someone they genuinely love on their (and their partner's) terms.
#1: If you come out as transsexual when you're 14 or 16 or 18, you do it of your own volition. You do it because the will to live is too great to ignore. Take it from someone who's been there, did that, got the commemorative coffee mug, etc. It is superfluous to have someone be "qualified" to "recommend" it or not. So that argument is moot.
#2: The problem with professional help is that professionalization of an educated person does not qualify them as Hippocratic and/or free of their own ulterior motives when advising a client. This is why the psychiatrization of transsexual people was such a massive failure and fucked up a lot of kids. I bristle when I hear someone suggest "that transwhatever kid needs help." Bollocks. That kid needs to be loved without question or judgment, period. You want that kid to be the very best they can reach to be. That, my dear, is the gesture of love.
This is why I know I know you don't actually love children once they're born. Familial/parental love of the next generation does not constitute throwing that next generation to the professional dogs and hoping they can fend for themselves. That's all it really comes down to, sweetheart.
Your proselytizing on this sums as an endorsement for non-consensual abuse of kids who deserve love, not "treatment". These are the same "professionals" people like you will turn to in order to also "un-gay" their child so when they become adults, they don't marry someone they genuinely love on their (and their partner's) terms.
78
@62, not to be toooooo much of a dick, but looking like that and insisting on male pronouns is not much of a pass for either gender.
79
@76 It doesn't indicate internal identity disorder, it indicates that the person likes to wear a particular style of clothing. Just because most society dictates pink is a color only girls should wear doesn't mean some boys can't enjoy wearing pink, or dresses, or make-up. Just because you have limited gender ideas doesn't mean the rest of us do.
80
Thanks for the Paypal link! Putting my money where my mouth is feels so refreshing. Anything to help you apologize for insufficiently apologizing for the slowness with which you apologized for not apologizing about the McKenna post. You bastard, you.
81
On Thursday, Dan appended:
I don't think you're a bigot, Dan. I just think you're a cheesy t'aint.
Nothing's going to change your feelings on the matter. You have an engraved idea of where transsexual people belong: not in places of social standing where you enjoy slumming now — not where they can be seen, at least. To you, this is unfathomable.
Otherwise, meh, I'll just keep hating on trans people like the raging anti-trans beegoat that I am.)
I don't think you're a bigot, Dan. I just think you're a cheesy t'aint.
Nothing's going to change your feelings on the matter. You have an engraved idea of where transsexual people belong: not in places of social standing where you enjoy slumming now — not where they can be seen, at least. To you, this is unfathomable.
82
It doesn't really matter what kind of disorder Juin does or does not have, because his mother clearly doesn't have any money for counseling of any kind. They are HOMELESS, people. Living temporarily in the house of a friend-of-a-friend is homeless. Sending one family member off to live with a friend in a distant city while you try to get enough money together to find a place you all can live is doubly homeless. These people need basic services. Too bad they're in Mississippi Goddamn.
You know what kind of mental health care homeless people get? In Missifuckingssippi? For gender-related issues? Hah hah, that's a good one.
Donation sent.
You know what kind of mental health care homeless people get? In Missifuckingssippi? For gender-related issues? Hah hah, that's a good one.
Donation sent.
83
Here's one better, Dan: use that Paypal donation link to set up a trust fund for Juin. I'm sure you know a few gay bankers downtown who might have some sympathy to set up the best fund portfolio for the situation and for Juin's anticipated future financial obstacles.
84
Dan, you're holding an apology ransom? Disgusting. Since when is a real apology contingent upon other people doing the good work of helping the very people you abuse, Dan? Sad to see you keep treating this as a joke and wiping your feet on other people's dignity.
85
what about the gay kid that got kicked out by his parents, when news that his school would allow his boyfriend to attend prom, came out?
86
Thank you for the pay pal link. I'll put my money where my mouth is, too.
I'm doing it for this child, though. I'm not doing it to see you apologize, that is a subject for your own heart. Having not been around much, I don't know the whole story, if you were venting or acting with malice (I confess to lacking the energy and desire to understand it). I only know that I would not want to leave a person or group thinking that I did not care if I hurt them, even if my words/actions were without malice or intended as a joke. I'm the type to own the pain I cause, to seek reconciliation and to do it quickly, because life is painful enough as it is and I don't need to make it more painful for another. That is how it works for me.
I'm doing it for this child, though. I'm not doing it to see you apologize, that is a subject for your own heart. Having not been around much, I don't know the whole story, if you were venting or acting with malice (I confess to lacking the energy and desire to understand it). I only know that I would not want to leave a person or group thinking that I did not care if I hurt them, even if my words/actions were without malice or intended as a joke. I'm the type to own the pain I cause, to seek reconciliation and to do it quickly, because life is painful enough as it is and I don't need to make it more painful for another. That is how it works for me.
87
Now if only we can donate enough money to get this poor boy the couselling and responsible medical advice he needs. And then we could donate enough to sue and ideally imprison those who advocate butchery under the guise of medicine.
When is the world going to wake up to the fact that GRS is just woo like homeopathy? And like homeopathy, it can do real and long lasting harm to those upon whom is it practiced. Many children have gender confusion issues. The solution isn't to disfigure them with blades. The solution is to counsel them to satisfaction with who they are.
I sympathise with Juin. He has been taught things that are categorically untrue, he has been preyed upon by those who are supposed to help him, and he has now been made the focus of tremendous pressures to go through with a procedure which ought to be labelled and treated as the crime it is: sexual disfigurement under the auspices of medicine.
When is the world going to wake up to the fact that GRS is just woo like homeopathy? And like homeopathy, it can do real and long lasting harm to those upon whom is it practiced. Many children have gender confusion issues. The solution isn't to disfigure them with blades. The solution is to counsel them to satisfaction with who they are.
I sympathise with Juin. He has been taught things that are categorically untrue, he has been preyed upon by those who are supposed to help him, and he has now been made the focus of tremendous pressures to go through with a procedure which ought to be labelled and treated as the crime it is: sexual disfigurement under the auspices of medicine.
88
A lot of you are all over Dan for his comment the other day. Fair enough - it was insensitive - but I'd think a prerequisite for being trans in America would be a thicker skin. Otherwise, if each instance of insensitivity gnawed at you for days - and I'm guessing they're not uncommon - you'd find yourself living in a dark cloud of constant resentment. What kind of life is that?
I mean, it's fair to call him out on it, but in every thread, multiple times? Point made, bolded, and underlined. There will always be jerks who don't get you. Take a deep breath and let it go.
I mean, it's fair to call him out on it, but in every thread, multiple times? Point made, bolded, and underlined. There will always be jerks who don't get you. Take a deep breath and let it go.
89
Has Loveschild ever shown it's face at Slog Happy? I want to meet this freak of nature. So here's the deal Loveschild, I'm a long time slogger who lives in Seattle and has never been to Slog Happy. (I have a volunteer commitment most Tuesday and Thursday nights) So if you have the guts to show your face at the next Slog Happy I'll go to meet you and spit in your face.
90
I wish we had one of those donation bars that could tell us how things are going, hopefully you can fill us in on the results Dan. Hope my 20$ is a teensy drop in the bucket.
@87, sex reassignment surgery is not for everyone, for sure, but if you really think it isn't for anyone and that some kids can merely be persuaded into their physical genders then I'm going to have to ask for more proof that you're a doctor than your moniker. GID is a recognized medical condition and sexual transition a recognized treatment in all of the civilized world and even in liberal bastions like Iran. Certainly transitioning is a major step and should be taken with the advice of doctors, but suggesting that its not a legitimate treatment means you go against an overwhelmingly dominant consensus in the medical community.
@87, sex reassignment surgery is not for everyone, for sure, but if you really think it isn't for anyone and that some kids can merely be persuaded into their physical genders then I'm going to have to ask for more proof that you're a doctor than your moniker. GID is a recognized medical condition and sexual transition a recognized treatment in all of the civilized world and even in liberal bastions like Iran. Certainly transitioning is a major step and should be taken with the advice of doctors, but suggesting that its not a legitimate treatment means you go against an overwhelmingly dominant consensus in the medical community.
91
I wish we had one of those donation bars that could tell us how things are going, hopefully you can fill us in on the results Dan. Hope my 20$ is a teensy drop in the bucket.
@87, sex reassignment surgery is not for everyone, for sure, but if you really think it isn't for anyone and that some kids can merely be persuaded into their physical genders then I'm going to have to ask for more proof that you're a doctor than your moniker. GID is a recognized medical condition and sexual transition a recognized treatment in all of the civilized world and even in liberal bastions like Iran. Certainly transitioning is a major step and should be taken with the advice of doctors, but suggesting that its not a legitimate treatment means you go against an overwhelmingly dominant consensus in the medical community.
@87, sex reassignment surgery is not for everyone, for sure, but if you really think it isn't for anyone and that some kids can merely be persuaded into their physical genders then I'm going to have to ask for more proof that you're a doctor than your moniker. GID is a recognized medical condition and sexual transition a recognized treatment in all of the civilized world and even in liberal bastions like Iran. Certainly transitioning is a major step and should be taken with the advice of doctors, but suggesting that its not a legitimate treatment means you go against an overwhelmingly dominant consensus in the medical community.
93
Yes, lets all donate to the cause that elevates Dan to the level of gay daddy fund raiser. He gets the credit for raising the funds....bringing it to the attention of the masses...erasing any bad publicity that surrounds him from occassionally making mockery of trans people.
He might even get the impression that he can get away with being a dick every now and then because he has one after all and because he can push a few dollars in the right directions every now and then.
Kind of like an abusive and neglectful parent does. "Here, sonny, go buy yourself something pretty!"
Your sincerity is lacking.
He might even get the impression that he can get away with being a dick every now and then because he has one after all and because he can push a few dollars in the right directions every now and then.
Kind of like an abusive and neglectful parent does. "Here, sonny, go buy yourself something pretty!"
Your sincerity is lacking.
94
I hate u, responsible doc. But on another note, isn't the whole "I won't apologize until you donate" thing kinda a joke? Like, a way to make pantie-bunchers like Lurleen get all fiery and donate out of spite? I dunno, I'm a fierce tranny advocate, but I didn't get too much hate from Dan's post....
95
As the father of a newly out 12 year old, I'm in for $20. Hopefully, we can get Juin settled enough to see that suing the dickwad school board for _damages_ is the way to go. One can only hope that this is just a hiccup on our way to actual freedom.
96
Thanks for setting up the Paypal acct. This is some kind of revolution in philanthropy. Don't we always say we wish we knew that our $ got into the hands of the people who need it? The revolution will be blogged, it appears.
97
I love how this poor kid has turned into a platform from which to spring all sorts of theories about stuff that's not part of the story, like gender reassignment surgery. Folks, none of us here has a clue what Juin's real situation is; he may not know either. None of us are doctors (I'm betting @87 isn't either). And he's not going under the knife tomorrow.
His needs are far more pressing than that; the boy needs a PLACE TO LIVE AND BE SAFE. And so does his family. If he decides he needs GRS later on, or something else, or pack it all in and become a homophobic preacher man -- that's his business, not ours. Our business is helping a kid who's in six different kinds of bad personal hardship get his life settled down a little so he can figure out what's what. It's hard enough being a "typical" teenage boy in this kind of maelstrom, let alone being "different" and attracting all sorts of wrong attention from evil-minded bigots.
Let's stop worrying for ten seconds about whether he's the right kind of transsexual or whatever and give these people some help. And yes, the forces that are aligned against him are the same forces aligned against every kind of sexual minority. But let's take Juin's side for now, and not worry about what he's doing wrong or not. The boy needs a home and a school, not lecturing.
His needs are far more pressing than that; the boy needs a PLACE TO LIVE AND BE SAFE. And so does his family. If he decides he needs GRS later on, or something else, or pack it all in and become a homophobic preacher man -- that's his business, not ours. Our business is helping a kid who's in six different kinds of bad personal hardship get his life settled down a little so he can figure out what's what. It's hard enough being a "typical" teenage boy in this kind of maelstrom, let alone being "different" and attracting all sorts of wrong attention from evil-minded bigots.
Let's stop worrying for ten seconds about whether he's the right kind of transsexual or whatever and give these people some help. And yes, the forces that are aligned against him are the same forces aligned against every kind of sexual minority. But let's take Juin's side for now, and not worry about what he's doing wrong or not. The boy needs a home and a school, not lecturing.
98
Note the difference in the category of response between Lynx, who seems intelligent, thoughtful and willing to discuss matters reasonably, and More, I Say!, who betrays himself/herself as reactionary, emotional, and unable to engage in responsible debate.
Lynx: The majority dominant medical opinion has been wrong before, is wrong about some (unknown) things now, and will be wrong again. We would be absurdly arrogant to believe that just because we think that disfiguring a person is the best way to cure them that we must be right, when it is a problem of clearly mental/emotional origin.
Similarly, some mentally ill persons have been treated with amputation for the sole purpose of 'feeling that the limb was wrong'. This has been debated in scottish parliament and is accessible through a simple google scholar search for 'elective amputation' (I can't post html). The practice is now banned in many places, despite being accepted medically by many physicians.
Consensus is not an argument for something of this sort. There is nothing to test, no double blind experiment to perform to determine the 'truth' of the matter. There are only surgeons, eager to be politically correct and convinced of their own superiority to nature or god or whatever, who radically mutilate people who need phychiatric care.
Lynx: The majority dominant medical opinion has been wrong before, is wrong about some (unknown) things now, and will be wrong again. We would be absurdly arrogant to believe that just because we think that disfiguring a person is the best way to cure them that we must be right, when it is a problem of clearly mental/emotional origin.
Similarly, some mentally ill persons have been treated with amputation for the sole purpose of 'feeling that the limb was wrong'. This has been debated in scottish parliament and is accessible through a simple google scholar search for 'elective amputation' (I can't post html). The practice is now banned in many places, despite being accepted medically by many physicians.
Consensus is not an argument for something of this sort. There is nothing to test, no double blind experiment to perform to determine the 'truth' of the matter. There are only surgeons, eager to be politically correct and convinced of their own superiority to nature or god or whatever, who radically mutilate people who need phychiatric care.
99
@87: Oh look, Irresponsible Dickweed's back! How ya been, you winner?
@88: This didn't just come up the other day, Free Lunch. The first time I read something Dan wrote which gave me the clarion impression on how he felt about someone like me — someone "like", as he wrote with the surgical precision of a sawed-off shotgun, blasting everyone — it was, hrm, in 1999. I arrived late, too.
Why it badly shows on him even more now, Free Lunch, is because the social and political placement for him and peers who share a lot in common with him have come remarkably far in eleven years to the point of being shown a dignity still beyond reach then (and totally unfathomable just eleven years before that). But for someone like my non-cissexual peers, nothing changed where Dan's concerned. Soooooo, I'll let you make the conclusion.
@88: This didn't just come up the other day, Free Lunch. The first time I read something Dan wrote which gave me the clarion impression on how he felt about someone like me — someone "like", as he wrote with the surgical precision of a sawed-off shotgun, blasting everyone — it was, hrm, in 1999. I arrived late, too.
Why it badly shows on him even more now, Free Lunch, is because the social and political placement for him and peers who share a lot in common with him have come remarkably far in eleven years to the point of being shown a dignity still beyond reach then (and totally unfathomable just eleven years before that). But for someone like my non-cissexual peers, nothing changed where Dan's concerned. Soooooo, I'll let you make the conclusion.
100
Here we see the evidence of emotional instability inherent in persons seeking gender reassignment: Tesla Grills. This is clearly a person deeply in need of nurturing therapy. Incapable of defending his/her own position (I do not know which pronoud Tesla prefers, and his/her chosen name does not reveal it: I would use the term preferred, certainly), Tesla attacks with juvenile taunts.
You were ravaged by people who were supposed to be your advocates. I urge you to find a therapist, followed by an attorney.
You were ravaged by people who were supposed to be your advocates. I urge you to find a therapist, followed by an attorney.
101
Responsible Doc, I simply don't see "doctors have been wrong before" as a persuasive argument. Yes, they absolutely have been wrong before and they undoubtedly are wrong about some things now. However I don't see that as a good argument for any alternative. They could also be wrong about HIV causing AIDS or be wrong about smoking causing lung cancer, but would you advise a patient to poke themselves with dirty needles or forget about quiting cigs because the medical community has been wrong before?
I've had very tedious debates with creationists that cannot get it in their heads that when it turns out that study X was a fraud or simply mistaken, that does not actually tear down the entire house of evolutionary biology. "They've been wrong before" is not an argument on being wrong now. What recent medical studies can you cite that demonstrates that GRS is a counterproductive treatment in all cases? Certainly I'd agree that its likely not the right choice every time, but everything I've read indicates that it is certainly indicated sometimes, until someone comes up with a drug that can sync your body of birth to your brain.
I've had very tedious debates with creationists that cannot get it in their heads that when it turns out that study X was a fraud or simply mistaken, that does not actually tear down the entire house of evolutionary biology. "They've been wrong before" is not an argument on being wrong now. What recent medical studies can you cite that demonstrates that GRS is a counterproductive treatment in all cases? Certainly I'd agree that its likely not the right choice every time, but everything I've read indicates that it is certainly indicated sometimes, until someone comes up with a drug that can sync your body of birth to your brain.
102
Donation sent, and please keep us updated with anything else we can do (long-distance) to help Juin and his family.
103
Responsible Doc and Lord Basil are just roommates, I hear. I understand that the Lord commands the Doc to administer first aid on a nightly basis.
Doc's cranky, because every once in a while he'd like to call the shots.
Doc's cranky, because every once in a while he'd like to call the shots.
104
Jee-freebasing-sus, people, lighten up on Dan already! Kim I.P. - you're questioning the 'heart' of a man who makes his LIVING defending the rights of transgendered people along with GLBs. Let me spell it out for you, Patrick66 and everyone else with their panties in a bunch: The power of that joke, to be effective, necessarily takes part of a societal assumption that there is something negative about being trans. Granted. But if it had been done in a brief, offhand manner - e.g. "Whaddya think, McKenna: preop or postop?" it would have seemed OK (if not necessarily funny) because the joke wouldn't have been stretched out, exposing the negative core to scrutiny.
In short, failed joke != hate. P.S. Free Lunch probably said it better.
In short, failed joke != hate. P.S. Free Lunch probably said it better.
105
Would be nice to know who exactly is overseeing the funds collected and where exactly they're being spent.
106
If you go back a month, Constance was in the news due to her very public support of Juin even before it became her turn to suffer the wrath of the school district.
http://www.wtva.com/mostpopular/story/Sc…
http://www.wtva.com/mostpopular/story/Sc…
107
Relax, LC: Dan's sending it to Liberty 700 National Bank, PLC, in Little Nativity, Virginia. The bank is soundly chaired by Pat Robertson. You can rest well tonight.
108
Oh! Didn't even notice the sweet video of Constance and Juin chatting up in the corner of the story link I just posted. What wonderful kids, both of 'em.
110
What makes anyone think that Pensacola, Florida is going to be any better for Juin than Itawamba, MS? It's good that he has some friends there, but still... I've never thought of the Florida panhandle as a bastion of love and acceptance...
111
@87: Since when is homeopathy "just woo"? Sure, there are a lot of disorders that it just can't help, but as someone who grew up taking homeopathic remedies for minor problems, I can tell you that they are often quite effective and typically carry none of the side effects of mainstream medicine. Take Nux vomica: it does exactly what it sounds like (press X to not puke) and it actually works. If you truly were a responsible doc, you'd be less set in your ways and more open to the possibility that maybe you don't know all the answers. Any good professional knows when to consult a colleague, whereas you seem to have convinced yourself that you know what's best for everyone.
Vete a la mierda, imbécil.
Vete a la mierda, imbécil.
112
@Lance Thurstwell,
I'm not questioning Dan's heart. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but I regret that my statement made you think that I was. My own experience of Dan is that he is kind and compassionate. Having not been around, and having my plate full, I don't know why individuals are so upset with him. But, obviously some are upset.
My point was that I was going to donate for Juin. He and his family need help and I have it to give.
So very sorry for the misunderstanding.
@Dan,
I am so very sorry if you read my comment and think that I, Kim, am judging you or questioning your heart. That was not what I was intending to convey. Just how I, Kim, always feel compelled to acknowledge pain and seek peace, even when I know that I was not intending to be hurtful. I'm doing a rather poor job of expressing myself of late. I really shouldn't be hanging around here. So, again so very sorry.
I'm not questioning Dan's heart. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but I regret that my statement made you think that I was. My own experience of Dan is that he is kind and compassionate. Having not been around, and having my plate full, I don't know why individuals are so upset with him. But, obviously some are upset.
My point was that I was going to donate for Juin. He and his family need help and I have it to give.
So very sorry for the misunderstanding.
@Dan,
I am so very sorry if you read my comment and think that I, Kim, am judging you or questioning your heart. That was not what I was intending to convey. Just how I, Kim, always feel compelled to acknowledge pain and seek peace, even when I know that I was not intending to be hurtful. I'm doing a rather poor job of expressing myself of late. I really shouldn't be hanging around here. So, again so very sorry.
113
She's welcome to come stay here in Seattle as long as she wants.
Kids like that need to be viewed by those of us who came before her as victories.
One little victory in a very long battle.
As an out, trans musician in Seattle, I salute her courage.
Kids like that need to be viewed by those of us who came before her as victories.
One little victory in a very long battle.
As an out, trans musician in Seattle, I salute her courage.
114
chefgirl @106, thank you for posting that! He's perfectly sweet, and Constance continues to amaze me.
115
Ok Juin you got all my free cash for this payperiod (how sad it is only $20)! Hopefully there are lots of others so that it adds up to actually make a difference. ( : =
116
@112, if you're talking about homeopathy as a short-hand for all alternative treatments, then the following may not apply. If you're talking about homeopathy as in drinking little bottles of water with 10^−400 dilutions (thats a 1 with 400 zeros), then I have to inform you that homeopathy is absolute junk pseudoscientific bullshit. For homeopathy to be true physics, mathematics and chemistry would have to all be false. The aggregate of scientific studies has shown no significant benefit beyond the placebo. It is prescribed either by the ignorant or the dishonest. Those who reccomend homeopathic "vaccines" instead of actual, you know, vaccines, are criminally negligent. I would encourage you to read the wiki on homeopathy top to bottom:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
Just in case you don't want to I'll leave you a one snippet, food for ultradiluted thought:
Physicist Robert L. Park, former executive director of the American Physical Society, has noted that
"since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
Just in case you don't want to I'll leave you a one snippet, food for ultradiluted thought:
Physicist Robert L. Park, former executive director of the American Physical Society, has noted that
"since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth."
117
Homeopathy's been woo since forever, 111. If homeopathy really truly JUST WORKS, there should be no problems demonstrating that it does. Conduct trials treating patients both with non-homeopathic water and homeopathic water, don't tell them which is which, and observe whether there is any difference in healing effect. That kind of test isn't 'the medical establishment' trying to suppress the truth, that is the truth. Homeopathy has never been able to demonstrate therapeutic effect.
118
@117,
Well, technically, it is as effective as placebo, which isn't nothing. Homeopathy works just as well as believing you have been given a magic stone. But then, that doesn't contradict what you wrote.
Well, technically, it is as effective as placebo, which isn't nothing. Homeopathy works just as well as believing you have been given a magic stone. But then, that doesn't contradict what you wrote.
120
Absolutely donated. Sometimes I wish these southern states would just secede and get it over with; they clearly don't want to be part of the land of the free.
121
@116, 117: I mean homeopathy as in small amounts of chemical (usually alkaloids or some other plant extract) in little sugar pills. Low dilutions, meaning that you do actually have detectable concentrations of the active ingredients. 30C dilutions, I agree, are nothing but quackery, but 3X dilutions can be noticeably more effective than a placebo. The calendula gel sold by Boiron, for example, which I used often in my childhood to treat scrapes and cuts, is 1X, which means that it contains 10% active ingredients. Homeopathy is not intrinsically woo; people who insist that serial dilution down to nothing is effective make it woo.
I state for the record that to substitute homeopathy for mainstream medicine is folly and will typically just hurt you, but homeopathy at low dilutions can be a useful supplement to more standard and proven treatments.
I state for the record that to substitute homeopathy for mainstream medicine is folly and will typically just hurt you, but homeopathy at low dilutions can be a useful supplement to more standard and proven treatments.
122
How did we get to talking about a trans person's struggle to a dissertation on homeopathic remedies?
@119 Thanks, but it's the truth.
People need to start leaving each other to live as they feel they need to. Juin wasn't hurting anyone. Nor was Constance. But some people, even in liberal Seattle, feel the need to force their views on everyone else.
Doing what my band does, in the venues we play, which are only straight, by the way, gives me the idea that she knows exactly what she's doing and why she's doing it. I'm quite certain that to Juin, living and presenting as female is a life and death issue.
However, for those that shunned her, who happen to be adults, and are supposed to set an example for kids to follow, this was certainly not that big of a deal. But they had to keep up appearances, and appease the guilt that comes from their own sins.
It seems to me, that the school administrators should be taught by kids like Juin and Constance.
And they should be fired.
@119 Thanks, but it's the truth.
People need to start leaving each other to live as they feel they need to. Juin wasn't hurting anyone. Nor was Constance. But some people, even in liberal Seattle, feel the need to force their views on everyone else.
Doing what my band does, in the venues we play, which are only straight, by the way, gives me the idea that she knows exactly what she's doing and why she's doing it. I'm quite certain that to Juin, living and presenting as female is a life and death issue.
However, for those that shunned her, who happen to be adults, and are supposed to set an example for kids to follow, this was certainly not that big of a deal. But they had to keep up appearances, and appease the guilt that comes from their own sins.
It seems to me, that the school administrators should be taught by kids like Juin and Constance.
And they should be fired.
123
@122: Spoken more eloquently and with more tact than @77.
(My tact unfortunately fell out of my messenger bag a few years ago. If anyone finds it, call me. There's a reward.)
(My tact unfortunately fell out of my messenger bag a few years ago. If anyone finds it, call me. There's a reward.)
124
Thank you for adding the Paypal link. I'm really looking forward to see what has been raised today!
125
@123:.Your comments to the esteemed Herr Savage are interesting. As are his ideas, which you quoted.
If he really means "Otherwise, meh, I'll just keep hating on trans people like the raging anti-trans beegoat that I am." I'd love to chat with him face to face. I'll be at Purr tonight around 9:30 or 10. And I'll be ridiculously easy to find.
Cheers, Oh Danny Boy:)
If he really means "Otherwise, meh, I'll just keep hating on trans people like the raging anti-trans beegoat that I am." I'd love to chat with him face to face. I'll be at Purr tonight around 9:30 or 10. And I'll be ridiculously easy to find.
Cheers, Oh Danny Boy:)
126
I am in LA tonight—so I can't meet up. Maybe next week?
I am, of course, no anti-trans beegoat, and said that to mock the folks who are insisting that I am. I don't hate on trans people... well, not anymore than I hate on gay people, pit bull people, smoking people, etc.
I am, of course, no anti-trans beegoat, and said that to mock the folks who are insisting that I am. I don't hate on trans people... well, not anymore than I hate on gay people, pit bull people, smoking people, etc.
130
@venomlash,
If there is actually a substance in the water, and the substance has properties which ameliorate the conditions, then sure. 3X will retain the medicinal effect often times. Bearing in mind that to be effective, a medicine needs to be administered in specific theraputic quantities.
But, if there is a substance other than water or sugar in the medicine, then it ISN'T true homeopathy.
If there is actually a substance in the water, and the substance has properties which ameliorate the conditions, then sure. 3X will retain the medicinal effect often times. Bearing in mind that to be effective, a medicine needs to be administered in specific theraputic quantities.
But, if there is a substance other than water or sugar in the medicine, then it ISN'T true homeopathy.
131
Responsible Doc.... your ignorant idea that all transgendered people just need therapy to accept themselves the way they were born has been tried many many times before. They never cured anyone, they never made anyone comfortable with the way they were born, they never helped ANYONE. I'm not saying there are not some people out there who are confused about themselves and do need psychiatric help, but that is not the norm. Most people who express transgendered feelings really do benefit from transition and many others benefit greatly from SRS. IT IS NOT MUTILATION! It is a viable treatment for a genetic abnormality. I know many transsexual people and not a one of them regret their decision to transition and to have SRS. In fact the opposite is true. I've seen the remarkable effects transition and SRS can have on a person who it is right for. I am one of those people myself. Transition to the opposite gender is not an easy path by any means. It will not solve all of the problems the person usually has, but it sure does alleviate some major ones for a transgendered person.
132
Thanks for posting this, Dan.
I thought what was said before was distasteful, but it's not the same thing as bigotry.
GAY MEN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ALL GOOD TASTE ALL THE TIME.
I thought what was said before was distasteful, but it's not the same thing as bigotry.
GAY MEN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ALL GOOD TASTE ALL THE TIME.
133
Sigh... These stories (Constance McMillan, Derrick Martin, Juin Baize) are so... sad. I certainly have been reminded (once again) of my straight privilege.
I can't help wonder what the answer is. Yes, one can give money to help a single kid or to support a single campaign, but is there some larger game plan out there that isn't so much case-by-case Whack-a-Mole? Suggestions???
I can't help wonder what the answer is. Yes, one can give money to help a single kid or to support a single campaign, but is there some larger game plan out there that isn't so much case-by-case Whack-a-Mole? Suggestions???
135
Irresponsible Doc
Are you trans? No? Then shut the hell up! Until you are trans, until you have the same thoughts and experiences as I have, you have no right to comment on what therapy or procedure is best for me. You say this is all in my head then how do you explain why I have lost 100 lbs since accepting I was a woman and not a man and coming out and transitioning. How do you explain my triglycerides have gone from over 500 to 170. How my blood pressure has gone from 160/90 to 120/70. Being trans is a PHYSICAL disorder not a mental one. I have gone to a therapist every other week for three years. And I have never felt a sense of peace, tranquility, and contentment as I now have as a woman. The mind rules who we are and how we live. Live OUR OWN LIVES. my body was wrong. It is right now and I have never been happier, and never been healthier, and never felt more alive. I was eating myself to death as a man. I didn't care because I was never comfortable as a man. Now that I am a woman, I want to live as long as I can. So until you are in my shoes (which are much more fabulous now), I again advise you, respectfully to shut the hell up. Thank you!
Are you trans? No? Then shut the hell up! Until you are trans, until you have the same thoughts and experiences as I have, you have no right to comment on what therapy or procedure is best for me. You say this is all in my head then how do you explain why I have lost 100 lbs since accepting I was a woman and not a man and coming out and transitioning. How do you explain my triglycerides have gone from over 500 to 170. How my blood pressure has gone from 160/90 to 120/70. Being trans is a PHYSICAL disorder not a mental one. I have gone to a therapist every other week for three years. And I have never felt a sense of peace, tranquility, and contentment as I now have as a woman. The mind rules who we are and how we live. Live OUR OWN LIVES. my body was wrong. It is right now and I have never been happier, and never been healthier, and never felt more alive. I was eating myself to death as a man. I didn't care because I was never comfortable as a man. Now that I am a woman, I want to live as long as I can. So until you are in my shoes (which are much more fabulous now), I again advise you, respectfully to shut the hell up. Thank you!
136
@98: Funny thing about elective amputation for Body Integrity Identity Disorder: Based on the relatively few studies that were done on it before anti-autonomy assholes pushed through bans, it works. As in, quality of life is significantly improved. Now, I am inclined to agree that surgery is a less-than-ideal solution for either BIID or GID, and also to agree that in all probability a better solution will eventually be found. But,and this is key, we as human beings live in time. That a better solution may be found eventually is no reason to allow people to suffer now. Elective amputation and SRS may be barbaric, but doing nothing, for those sufferers who are unresponsive to less drastic treatments, is far more barbaric.
137
@121: It may be that certain low-dose herbal preparations prepared as "low potency homeopathic solutions" work, as herbal remedies, but the two basic principles of homeopathy, namely that "like cures like" (as a general principle) and that greater dilution (accompanied by succussion) results in greater potency, are complete bullshit, which means that homeopathy itself is bullshit.
138
@135:
There is no "until", figger. There is either "is" or "is not". Also, I'm pretty sure Irritable Doc frequents Slog threads on this topic because it's a topic closer to him than he leads on having others believe. Yes, that's right.
@136: Even hinting at comparing my transsexual life experience with elective amputees is as off-colour and gloves off as comparing Dan Savage's gay life experience with paedophiles. It is without merit, without basis, and without respect.
. . . Until you are trans . . .
There is no "until", figger. There is either "is" or "is not". Also, I'm pretty sure Irritable Doc frequents Slog threads on this topic because it's a topic closer to him than he leads on having others believe. Yes, that's right.
@136: Even hinting at comparing my transsexual life experience with elective amputees is as off-colour and gloves off as comparing Dan Savage's gay life experience with paedophiles. It is without merit, without basis, and without respect.
139
#110, have you ever been to the panhandle of Florida, we are a lot more accepting of different individuals than small hick towns in Mississippi.
Look Juin has been family to me since he was a young child. If you really want to know I am that friend-of-a-friend in Florida.
I have more class than you would know. I am not rich, matter of fact I live from month to month raising a teenager daughter and have two young adult boys in my house also which are my sons. One whom is gay.
The schools here have never discriminated against my son when he finally came out and besides that I substitute at the K-12 school system. I have first hand knowledge in how our students and educators treat all students the same, they do not sit there in judgement of anyone student, we believe that all students no matter what gender, sex or color they are or religion that they all deserve an education equally.
Have you ever been to Florida, if not than don't judge a book by its cove.
If you all want to know why we have choosen virtual on-line school, it is because the school year is almost over and it will be easier to just start Juin fresh in the fall and he will be attending a public high school, matter of fact the same one my daughter will be attending in the fall.
My daughter and Juin are like sister and brother (now transgender sis). It does not bother her or anyone of us in our family.My daughter has always called Juin her little bro and the reason being is that they are only 3 months apart, Juin being younger.
Have you ever watched the medical channel on television especially on Wednesday nights, they do a whole segment on transgender individuals (male to female and female to male) If you would like to know there are more males that change to females than females to males) Did you also know that many of these feelings start at the age of 5 in the individual it is not psychological, some individuals are born with the identy change and there is nothing to do but to accept it. I bet when you are out walking in the mall or the grocery store you are not aware of a transgender individual, there are more around than you realize it. If you go out to dinner or to a movie you could possible sitting next to a transgender individual and not even know it.
The situation with Juin is not whether he will pusue the sex change the whole story is about how a school can be allowd to not let a student attend and get an education because of what Juin perfers to wear. Juin was not a distraction to anyone, but the school made Juin more of a distraction to everyone in how they told him to go home and dress normal. What is normal for anyone. We all have our own ideas and our own personalities, why should we let anyone dictate how we dress, eat, sleep, how are hair should be a certain way, we do not live in a communistic world, we live in a free world with the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States that includes Amendment 1: Freedom speach, religion, press. Basically the freedom to be ourselves and not to be dictated to about how we should be and what we need to wear, we have the freedom to express ourselves anyway we want.
Does it not say all men are created EQUAL, It do not say only white men, black men, does that mean that women are not equal to men.
I am not orginially from the South, I was born and raised a Northern Yankee, and a catholic. But what I have learned is that you help those no matter what your own financial situation is, no matter if you use your bill money to drive to MS, to go save a individual that is almost family to you. I would take the shirt off my back for anyone in trouble
I also am very close to Juin's mother and two sisters, I used to baby sit them all the time while there mother was out working trying to make it, just like me.
Maybe you should do some research on the whole transgender thing and maybe you would realize that it is not that awful of a thing.
Does not all states have the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND law in there books, well this is a great example of a State like Mississippi that thinks it can leave a child behind because of what he/she wears to school.
I would love to fight for more laws protecting trnsgenders, gays and lesbians from bigots out there. And if you are current with you Sentors and Congressmen, look up the female from Penn, she has openly come out out about being a lesbian
Do yourself a favor, if you cant comment on the point at hand then dont comment at all.
#97- I want to tell you that Juin is safe and very happy with us. We are like a second family to him and have been for many of years.
My daughter and Juin practicle grew up together. They are only three months apart. They call each other sis and bro.
To let you know he will be attending a regular high school in the fall along with my daughter, and he will be safe and able to wear what he wants with out any trouble. The reason for Virtual School on-line is because the school year is only got 9 weeks left.
When I recieved the call about Juin being threatened, I took my bill money and drove to Mississippi to get him and turned around and drove back to Florida non-stop.
Know I am trying to get ahold of my low life ex-husband to see if he can send me some money to pay for the bill. But I did not blink and eye when it came to taking that money. I would take the shirt off my back. I am not rich, I to live from month to month, but as I said Juin is totally safe with this family and has relaxed more and is allowed to go out without having to look behind his back.
Juin is a smart, kind, loving individual and would never hurt a sole.
I wish individuals would realize that this is not about having a transgender sex change this story is about an individual that could not express himself to a school or town because they thought of him as an distraction to the educational system. The only distraction was the decision of the school not to allow a individual into there school the way Juin dressed.
The ACLU did take his case, but once Constance started the thing up with the prom, Juin's case went to the back burner, because he was not marketable like Constance. It is a shame that you have to be marketable to get to the courts these days. We are currently working on getting a new attorney for Juin to persue this matter, since it is a violation of his Fist Amendment of the Constitution of the United State (Bill of Rights). I am hoping to help change the laws in all states not just Mississippi, but every where.
Thanks for your support FNARF
More...
Look Juin has been family to me since he was a young child. If you really want to know I am that friend-of-a-friend in Florida.
I have more class than you would know. I am not rich, matter of fact I live from month to month raising a teenager daughter and have two young adult boys in my house also which are my sons. One whom is gay.
The schools here have never discriminated against my son when he finally came out and besides that I substitute at the K-12 school system. I have first hand knowledge in how our students and educators treat all students the same, they do not sit there in judgement of anyone student, we believe that all students no matter what gender, sex or color they are or religion that they all deserve an education equally.
Have you ever been to Florida, if not than don't judge a book by its cove.
If you all want to know why we have choosen virtual on-line school, it is because the school year is almost over and it will be easier to just start Juin fresh in the fall and he will be attending a public high school, matter of fact the same one my daughter will be attending in the fall.
My daughter and Juin are like sister and brother (now transgender sis). It does not bother her or anyone of us in our family.My daughter has always called Juin her little bro and the reason being is that they are only 3 months apart, Juin being younger.
Have you ever watched the medical channel on television especially on Wednesday nights, they do a whole segment on transgender individuals (male to female and female to male) If you would like to know there are more males that change to females than females to males) Did you also know that many of these feelings start at the age of 5 in the individual it is not psychological, some individuals are born with the identy change and there is nothing to do but to accept it. I bet when you are out walking in the mall or the grocery store you are not aware of a transgender individual, there are more around than you realize it. If you go out to dinner or to a movie you could possible sitting next to a transgender individual and not even know it.
The situation with Juin is not whether he will pusue the sex change the whole story is about how a school can be allowd to not let a student attend and get an education because of what Juin perfers to wear. Juin was not a distraction to anyone, but the school made Juin more of a distraction to everyone in how they told him to go home and dress normal. What is normal for anyone. We all have our own ideas and our own personalities, why should we let anyone dictate how we dress, eat, sleep, how are hair should be a certain way, we do not live in a communistic world, we live in a free world with the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States that includes Amendment 1: Freedom speach, religion, press. Basically the freedom to be ourselves and not to be dictated to about how we should be and what we need to wear, we have the freedom to express ourselves anyway we want.
Does it not say all men are created EQUAL, It do not say only white men, black men, does that mean that women are not equal to men.
I am not orginially from the South, I was born and raised a Northern Yankee, and a catholic. But what I have learned is that you help those no matter what your own financial situation is, no matter if you use your bill money to drive to MS, to go save a individual that is almost family to you. I would take the shirt off my back for anyone in trouble
I also am very close to Juin's mother and two sisters, I used to baby sit them all the time while there mother was out working trying to make it, just like me.
Maybe you should do some research on the whole transgender thing and maybe you would realize that it is not that awful of a thing.
Does not all states have the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND law in there books, well this is a great example of a State like Mississippi that thinks it can leave a child behind because of what he/she wears to school.
I would love to fight for more laws protecting trnsgenders, gays and lesbians from bigots out there. And if you are current with you Sentors and Congressmen, look up the female from Penn, she has openly come out out about being a lesbian
Do yourself a favor, if you cant comment on the point at hand then dont comment at all.
#97- I want to tell you that Juin is safe and very happy with us. We are like a second family to him and have been for many of years.
My daughter and Juin practicle grew up together. They are only three months apart. They call each other sis and bro.
To let you know he will be attending a regular high school in the fall along with my daughter, and he will be safe and able to wear what he wants with out any trouble. The reason for Virtual School on-line is because the school year is only got 9 weeks left.
When I recieved the call about Juin being threatened, I took my bill money and drove to Mississippi to get him and turned around and drove back to Florida non-stop.
Know I am trying to get ahold of my low life ex-husband to see if he can send me some money to pay for the bill. But I did not blink and eye when it came to taking that money. I would take the shirt off my back. I am not rich, I to live from month to month, but as I said Juin is totally safe with this family and has relaxed more and is allowed to go out without having to look behind his back.
Juin is a smart, kind, loving individual and would never hurt a sole.
I wish individuals would realize that this is not about having a transgender sex change this story is about an individual that could not express himself to a school or town because they thought of him as an distraction to the educational system. The only distraction was the decision of the school not to allow a individual into there school the way Juin dressed.
The ACLU did take his case, but once Constance started the thing up with the prom, Juin's case went to the back burner, because he was not marketable like Constance. It is a shame that you have to be marketable to get to the courts these days. We are currently working on getting a new attorney for Juin to persue this matter, since it is a violation of his Fist Amendment of the Constitution of the United State (Bill of Rights). I am hoping to help change the laws in all states not just Mississippi, but every where.
Thanks for your support FNARF
140
How is it barbaric? It is no more mutilating than flat women who get breast implants. Or people who cover their skin in ink with tattoos. Or get multiple piercings. Or feel the need to bodybuild to the point of their muscles exploding. Or models starving themselves. People do all sorts of things to themselves to make themselves happier, or express themselves the way they want too. What's my point? It is their lives and only they know what is best for them. And no one else can say jack squat about what they and I need to do with our bodies. My former "equipment" was useless (and actually never used for 39 years the way a man would normally use it). It was a waste of skin in it's former configuration. Now that it has been rearranged the way it should have been in the first place it is perfect. Not mutliated. At all! Noticed I said rearranged. Not " cut off". Most of the material is merely reconfigured not amputated. It is now working great and I couldn't be more satisfied. So leave my body alone you have no right to comment about what I did for my own self. I was not coerced by anyone. No one manipulated me at all. I spent tens of thousands of dollars to get here and I have blossomed in life finally. I did not hurt anyone and helped myself. My treatment was perfect!
141
To #3, Cato the Younger Younger, and all people on this board: I am a born-again Christian and a staunch supporter of GLBT rights. I take action in the city I live in, including volunteering to get out domestic partnership bill passed (it failed, second year in a row). Also, last time I went to the Gay Pride Parade, I set myself up about a block past the Christian protesters on the parade route, holding up a sign that said, "Jesus loves you exactly the way you are!" Several of the parade walkers came over to me and hugged me, thanked me, one of them was crying...it was pretty powerful.
I hear about things like this terrible treatment of a young person, but they are usually in other cities, and it's hard for me to know what to do, if there is anything I could do. I'm not even sure what I could do if this did happen in my city of about a million people...I doubt there would be a grass-roots effort to help him or her.
Any suggestions on how I could concretely help from a Christian perspective of tolerance and inclusion and total acceptance, would be appreciated.
I hear about things like this terrible treatment of a young person, but they are usually in other cities, and it's hard for me to know what to do, if there is anything I could do. I'm not even sure what I could do if this did happen in my city of about a million people...I doubt there would be a grass-roots effort to help him or her.
Any suggestions on how I could concretely help from a Christian perspective of tolerance and inclusion and total acceptance, would be appreciated.
142
This comment thread is really indicating to me that the doctors of the administrators at Itawamba HS need to be replaced with homeopathic doctors and naturopaths.
143
Eww, seriously? You'll apologize if we donate money?
Just end the assholeathon on this issue, Dan. Either you are sorry or you are not sorry, but stop spending your energy on trying to show us how uptight we are because we thought your post was dumb as fuck. The snide comments about how you were sooooo naughty and we misunderstood you soooo badly are, like, what I used to do after taking teasing too far and hurting a friend's feelings in 7th grade.
Just end the assholeathon on this issue, Dan. Either you are sorry or you are not sorry, but stop spending your energy on trying to show us how uptight we are because we thought your post was dumb as fuck. The snide comments about how you were sooooo naughty and we misunderstood you soooo badly are, like, what I used to do after taking teasing too far and hurting a friend's feelings in 7th grade.
144
There is a Unitarian Universalist church in Tupelo, MI, about 18 miles east of Fulton, according to google maps. I guarantee they can help this family out somehow, if the family is open to it.
146
@67: Is wearing pants all the time for a female indicative of wanting to be a man? There's a greater amount of fluidity with clothing for many people, and part of this has to do with the fact that Americans are more diverse than they were at the beginning of the last century; we're accommodating more modes of dress and differing attitudes toward what is appropriate and inappropriate for men and women to wear. Because of a decentralized notion of what men and women wear, pink for men and pants for women are not as risque as before. Also, there are other cultures in which the women traditionally wear pants and the men traditionally wear skirts or skirt-like garments. I don't see a problem with Juin wearing clothes that are traditionally associated with American females while identifying as a male-- it's not hurting anyone for him to dress that way.
As for Juin attending Florida Virtual School, I don't see a major problem with it in the meantime. It's a decent program that will get him up to date with the requirements in the state without being immersed in a new school more than halfway through the school year. Pensacola is big enough of a town that he shouldn't have a difficult time making new friends and finding supportive peers, and it's also home to a satellite branch of one of the state universities. As long as he has a place to stay where he is emotionally supported by his caretakers and can find peers who will not judge him based on his appearance, he should adjust fairly quickly.
As for Juin attending Florida Virtual School, I don't see a major problem with it in the meantime. It's a decent program that will get him up to date with the requirements in the state without being immersed in a new school more than halfway through the school year. Pensacola is big enough of a town that he shouldn't have a difficult time making new friends and finding supportive peers, and it's also home to a satellite branch of one of the state universities. As long as he has a place to stay where he is emotionally supported by his caretakers and can find peers who will not judge him based on his appearance, he should adjust fairly quickly.
147
To all you people saying Juin's mom should never have moved to the South--the North is not some magical happy island of tolerance. 97% of American trans people report being harassed. Think about that. *97%*. There is no safe place to be trans in America.
148
It is a distraction, it keeps kids from being able to get an education. I got sent home form school in the 80s for my hair being on my collar. My wife got sent home because her skirt was too far up her knee. There are rules in society, even a BHO society. People that don't follow the rules get sent home. Too bad the whole school had to suffer cause the little girl wanted attention by bringing her female date to the prom dressed like a boy. In my day, people would just not go to the prom if it didn't fit, not make a big deal of it and have all the classmates suffer. Good thing we have people like Ellen to give her $30k for breaking the rules. We have organizations like the ACLU that will represent the rule-breakers and hurt all those who follow the rules. Sad day for morality and for ALL the other kids at the school whose attention is being taken away from education because of this one girl's selfish actions.
150
@4. I live in Mississippi and I know more than most people how far we have to go before we (as a state, not me personally) would ever be able to successfully integrate an effeminate gay male into our society no less a transgendered person. I recognize that this woman was trying to help her mother by moving to Fulton but if I had a transgendered child the very last thing I would do is take them to Mississippi. For better or worse things in Mississippi move more slowly than other places in the country, they always have, and it is slightly foolish to believe that they will ever be any different.
But to this point I will say two things, first, what do the rest of you expect from the state with the least education, least money and some of the most unfortunate generations long living conditions in our country. There are families here that still live in houses with no climate control or that have holes in their floor. I find it a little incredulous to expect these same people to accept what has only been accepted by the most modern society when they live in decidedly pre-modern conditions. The second thing is that if you really want to change these issues, if you really want Mississippi to step into the 20th century with a lot of the rest of the country you should take your liberal ideas, pack them into a u-haul with your furniture and move here. Bring us your tax dollars to support our public schools and your votes for us to elect better political officials. Every person who avoids moving to Mississippi because of the issues we have only helps us hold on to these issues a little longer.
But to this point I will say two things, first, what do the rest of you expect from the state with the least education, least money and some of the most unfortunate generations long living conditions in our country. There are families here that still live in houses with no climate control or that have holes in their floor. I find it a little incredulous to expect these same people to accept what has only been accepted by the most modern society when they live in decidedly pre-modern conditions. The second thing is that if you really want to change these issues, if you really want Mississippi to step into the 20th century with a lot of the rest of the country you should take your liberal ideas, pack them into a u-haul with your furniture and move here. Bring us your tax dollars to support our public schools and your votes for us to elect better political officials. Every person who avoids moving to Mississippi because of the issues we have only helps us hold on to these issues a little longer.
151
148, Constance wanted to attend prom with someone she wanted to and cares about. That is NOT selfish as every straight student had that right!
Dan, this makes me wish we had gone to Metro's prom w/you in a dress (and those 4" wedgies) and me in a tux all those years ago! (Although I am straight, I will always hate dresses!)
Meg in Dubuque
Dan, this makes me wish we had gone to Metro's prom w/you in a dress (and those 4" wedgies) and me in a tux all those years ago! (Although I am straight, I will always hate dresses!)
Meg in Dubuque
152
As usual, reading the responses of transgender people to philosophical and medical challenges to their mental condition is quite telling. As it happens, I have a mental illness. I have been diagnosed with major depression. It responds to selective seratonin reuptalke inhibitors rather well, but not perfectly. My mental illness is not strictly different from a person who believes themselves 'transgendered'. Both need to be treated with medication, talk therapy, and as figger shows: diet, exercise, and plenty of sunlight.
154
Alleged @152, But if Juin is happy with himself, and isn't hurting anyone, where's the need for treatment? It isn't your role to make him acceptable to society.
155
Could someone real quick clarify what Juin wants to be referred to as? I feel like a jerk calling Juin "he" like the article if "she" is what is preferred. I've seen a few commenters use "she".
In fact if someone like Telsa Grills or The Nasty Drummer Girl could post a good link or two on the T in LGBT and accompanying issues for the Woefully Deficient in Knowledge but Well-Meaning, like myself, it would be much appreciated.
In fact if someone like Telsa Grills or The Nasty Drummer Girl could post a good link or two on the T in LGBT and accompanying issues for the Woefully Deficient in Knowledge but Well-Meaning, like myself, it would be much appreciated.
156
F.y.i. to all these people who are talking about Constance I know hewr persanoally and she did NOT Want to wear a tux to the prom it was her GIRLFRIEND! So she lied to everyone in this world!
I mean all she had to do was say her girlfriend wanted to wear the tux NOT HER!
And I know Juin as well and I have been in contact with him and he is in a good place with the friends of his. But they are behind on bills. (just to go save him from the kkk) and all the other drama that was going on.
And Juin dosen't like to be called a he or a she, Juin rather be called Juin. He dosent care about a damn gender label!
In fact Juin talked to Dan and he is reciveing the donations for those of you who don't believe.
And another thing is that Constance has been reciving alot of persanal money from ppl all over..
I mean all she had to do was say her girlfriend wanted to wear the tux NOT HER!
And I know Juin as well and I have been in contact with him and he is in a good place with the friends of his. But they are behind on bills. (just to go save him from the kkk) and all the other drama that was going on.
And Juin dosen't like to be called a he or a she, Juin rather be called Juin. He dosent care about a damn gender label!
In fact Juin talked to Dan and he is reciveing the donations for those of you who don't believe.
And another thing is that Constance has been reciving alot of persanal money from ppl all over..
157
@152: I don't even know where to begin with the crap you posted, but I'll start with this...
For you to imply that I have a mental illness, when you have never even met me, and when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about regarding gender identity issues, is seriously beyond stupid. My advice to people like you is to get an education before yammering things that only make you look like a douchebag.
@136: "Elective amputation"????? You too are ignorant, and should refrain from posting about things you don't know anything about.
@155: Take a look at tsroadmap.com for a start. It'll give a clue as to what we deal with just to be able to live our lives with some semblance of sanity. Another good place to do some light reading is here....http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/.
Also, as a general rule of thumb, when someone presents themselves as female, referring to them with female pronouns is a good idea. Same goes for female to male tg folks. If they present as male, use male pronouns. if the person has an issue, they'll let you know.
And I agree with your comment to 148.
@Dan...if you want some education on trans issues, I'll be at Purr again next Thursday night.
Cheers!
For you to imply that I have a mental illness, when you have never even met me, and when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about regarding gender identity issues, is seriously beyond stupid. My advice to people like you is to get an education before yammering things that only make you look like a douchebag.
@136: "Elective amputation"????? You too are ignorant, and should refrain from posting about things you don't know anything about.
@155: Take a look at tsroadmap.com for a start. It'll give a clue as to what we deal with just to be able to live our lives with some semblance of sanity. Another good place to do some light reading is here....http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/.
Also, as a general rule of thumb, when someone presents themselves as female, referring to them with female pronouns is a good idea. Same goes for female to male tg folks. If they present as male, use male pronouns. if the person has an issue, they'll let you know.
And I agree with your comment to 148.
@Dan...if you want some education on trans issues, I'll be at Purr again next Thursday night.
Cheers!
158
@155: I'm really not authority you want to turn to. I don't play nice with most transgenders, as their identification politics don't make a lot of sense to me as a non-transgendered, transsexual woman. That said, go tinker around on Andrea James's exhaustive web site. It's basically an open encyclopaedia for everything you could possibly put your head around.
@152: You're right, Responsive Doc. An acquired neurotransmitter delivery interruption — as seen with clinical depression — does qualify as a treatable mental illness. Since you're a "responsible doc(tor)", you'll also know that something like ADHD (only germane here for comparison with depression) is not a mental illness, but rather, a way the brain may be congenitally structured to manage information.
As for transgenders, you'll have to take that up with Slog commenters who identify that way. As for my life experiences as a transsexual teen and, later, woman, the point was made elsewhere in this week's threads that at long last an increasing number of the very institutions which once damned homosexuality to a mental disorder — pulling back after 1973 — are doing the same for transsexuality (and only for transsexuality). Not really news to me, as a) I knew from day one that this was no disorder, b) I was never "diagnosed" with such a disorder, and c) having this life experience never qualified in my mind as an "identity" so much as a congenital incidental which was brought into the world when I was.
Has this life experience shaped my world view? Yes, of course. That's why I'm able fend for myself just fine around douche-canoes like you. :)
@152: You're right, Responsive Doc. An acquired neurotransmitter delivery interruption — as seen with clinical depression — does qualify as a treatable mental illness. Since you're a "responsible doc(tor)", you'll also know that something like ADHD (only germane here for comparison with depression) is not a mental illness, but rather, a way the brain may be congenitally structured to manage information.
As for transgenders, you'll have to take that up with Slog commenters who identify that way. As for my life experiences as a transsexual teen and, later, woman, the point was made elsewhere in this week's threads that at long last an increasing number of the very institutions which once damned homosexuality to a mental disorder — pulling back after 1973 — are doing the same for transsexuality (and only for transsexuality). Not really news to me, as a) I knew from day one that this was no disorder, b) I was never "diagnosed" with such a disorder, and c) having this life experience never qualified in my mind as an "identity" so much as a congenital incidental which was brought into the world when I was.
Has this life experience shaped my world view? Yes, of course. That's why I'm able fend for myself just fine around douche-canoes like you. :)
162
@138, 157: I perhaps erred in using an overly broad term - Body Integrity Identity Disorder seems to be a broad grouping of disorders that is analagous to lumping transexuality, transgender, and autogynephilia together into a single diagnostic category, but I can't seem to find a narrower term that precisely fits - somatoparaphrenia is close, but seems to at least sometimes be limited to cases that involve frank delusion.
What I am getting at is this: There is a small portion of the population that, for whatever reason, believes that a certain part of their body is not truly theirs, despite being, at least in some cases, capable of recognizing the biological fact that it shares the same DNA, developed out of the same embryonic tissue, etc. The prognosis, absent surgery, is very poor - even with treatment, a lot of them will end up under round the clock sedation and/or restraint because anything less will result in their removing the offending body parts themselves by whatever means are available to them. On the other hand, the little research that's been done on post-amputation outcomes is fairly positive - they generally do not experience the trauma that normally accompanies amputation, and do not (at least in absence of pre-existing comorbidity) transfer their revulsion to another body part.
So, all blather about offensiveness and ignorance aside, here is what I see: There are two groups of people who, for whatever reason, find it difficult or impossible to live happy, productive lives with their bodies in their natural configuration, and experience much improved quality of life if they receive surgery to reconfigure their bodies to match their internal understanding of how those bodies should be. Why should I regard the two differently? Apart from blathering about ignorance and disrespect, of course. After all, the fundies sing much the same tune when queers of all stripes try to compare their relationships to those of "normal" heterosexuals.
And, let me emphasize: I am, functionally at least, on your side, insofar as I believe that SRS is often the best solution that presently exists, and, although I do believe that a preference for cissexual partners is perfectly reasonable and should be respected, I'm very much opposed to trans-bashing.
More...
What I am getting at is this: There is a small portion of the population that, for whatever reason, believes that a certain part of their body is not truly theirs, despite being, at least in some cases, capable of recognizing the biological fact that it shares the same DNA, developed out of the same embryonic tissue, etc. The prognosis, absent surgery, is very poor - even with treatment, a lot of them will end up under round the clock sedation and/or restraint because anything less will result in their removing the offending body parts themselves by whatever means are available to them. On the other hand, the little research that's been done on post-amputation outcomes is fairly positive - they generally do not experience the trauma that normally accompanies amputation, and do not (at least in absence of pre-existing comorbidity) transfer their revulsion to another body part.
So, all blather about offensiveness and ignorance aside, here is what I see: There are two groups of people who, for whatever reason, find it difficult or impossible to live happy, productive lives with their bodies in their natural configuration, and experience much improved quality of life if they receive surgery to reconfigure their bodies to match their internal understanding of how those bodies should be. Why should I regard the two differently? Apart from blathering about ignorance and disrespect, of course. After all, the fundies sing much the same tune when queers of all stripes try to compare their relationships to those of "normal" heterosexuals.
And, let me emphasize: I am, functionally at least, on your side, insofar as I believe that SRS is often the best solution that presently exists, and, although I do believe that a preference for cissexual partners is perfectly reasonable and should be respected, I'm very much opposed to trans-bashing.
165
I wasn't going to donate because I thought money was tight this week. Then I looked at my bar tab from last night and realized that I'm an asshole. Thanks for posting the paypal link Dan.
166
@162: I applaud your willingness to dialogue on this subject. And also the fact that you say you're an ally. It really is appreciated, off topic as this discussion may be.
I'm kind of curious as to whether you view people with cleft palates the same as you do transgender folks. I know the idea that transsexualism is a birth defect is controversial to many of us who are ts. But as for a brief description, it works, at least to an extent. A person with a cleft palate was born with it. As you claim, it came from the same dna as the rest of their body. So what about it? Repairing the palate is mutilation? Or the person wanting to repair said palate has mental issues?
Here is some other information you might find interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/768900…
It seems as though there's more to this than meets they eye.
Using the word "amputation" to describe srs is really misleading. For MtF surgery, the penis is actually inverted. It's not like they just chop it off or whatever.
Also, please understand that many mental issues transfolk may be perceived as having are the result of living in a society where cis, white, christian males make the rules. People like myself are seen as a threat, for some reason. Even in males who aren't fundie religious have problems being associated with transwomen, because they fear they may be viewed as gay. We have a very difficult time finding jobs, are routinely fired, are discriminated against regarding housing, medical care and a host of other things, simply because we are who we are. We are murdered and assaulted at very high rates. We are far past average in diagnoses of depression. We suicide at a higher rate than cisgender people. And most of this is because of societal pressure. Until you walk in my Jimmy Choos, you just won't understand.
@158: I too identify as a woman. Politically, however, I identify as trans. Doing what my band does is as much a political act as it is anything else. It's a statement to people who wouldn't normally even consider us as human that we are pretty much like everyone else in the world. We simply want to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit. We have all of the same issues as other people do. We struggle to get by. We pay our bills. We pick up the dog crap in the yard. All the things cis people do, we do as well. We just have a bunch of shit added to our lives by people that think something is wrong with us.
I hope this helps.
More...
I'm kind of curious as to whether you view people with cleft palates the same as you do transgender folks. I know the idea that transsexualism is a birth defect is controversial to many of us who are ts. But as for a brief description, it works, at least to an extent. A person with a cleft palate was born with it. As you claim, it came from the same dna as the rest of their body. So what about it? Repairing the palate is mutilation? Or the person wanting to repair said palate has mental issues?
Here is some other information you might find interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/768900…
It seems as though there's more to this than meets they eye.
Using the word "amputation" to describe srs is really misleading. For MtF surgery, the penis is actually inverted. It's not like they just chop it off or whatever.
Also, please understand that many mental issues transfolk may be perceived as having are the result of living in a society where cis, white, christian males make the rules. People like myself are seen as a threat, for some reason. Even in males who aren't fundie religious have problems being associated with transwomen, because they fear they may be viewed as gay. We have a very difficult time finding jobs, are routinely fired, are discriminated against regarding housing, medical care and a host of other things, simply because we are who we are. We are murdered and assaulted at very high rates. We are far past average in diagnoses of depression. We suicide at a higher rate than cisgender people. And most of this is because of societal pressure. Until you walk in my Jimmy Choos, you just won't understand.
@158: I too identify as a woman. Politically, however, I identify as trans. Doing what my band does is as much a political act as it is anything else. It's a statement to people who wouldn't normally even consider us as human that we are pretty much like everyone else in the world. We simply want to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit. We have all of the same issues as other people do. We struggle to get by. We pay our bills. We pick up the dog crap in the yard. All the things cis people do, we do as well. We just have a bunch of shit added to our lives by people that think something is wrong with us.
I hope this helps.
167
sigh... everyone thinks "I am a victim". First you see it in Juin's mom, then you see it in Juin.
170
@166: Ce que vous dites est tout à fait valable.
For a spell during my "radical" twenties, I exercised political assertion. Eventually, vampires drained my blood (you're welcome to ponder the demography of those vampires, but off-slog). The tack I went with after a spiritual blood transfusion, as it were, was to simply never feel moved to say anything to people so as not to complicate life's daily transactions. As people came into my life as enduring friends, I have let them know the score.
It may not be that political a manoeuvre to go about it like this — it might even sound like heresy or betrayal to you — but it does wake people, even if quietly, slowly, and cautiously.
For a spell during my "radical" twenties, I exercised political assertion. Eventually, vampires drained my blood (you're welcome to ponder the demography of those vampires, but off-slog). The tack I went with after a spiritual blood transfusion, as it were, was to simply never feel moved to say anything to people so as not to complicate life's daily transactions. As people came into my life as enduring friends, I have let them know the score.
It may not be that political a manoeuvre to go about it like this — it might even sound like heresy or betrayal to you — but it does wake people, even if quietly, slowly, and cautiously.
171
Loveschild:
Actually, doctors are starting to let people transition as minors. The hormone therapy works a LOT better if the biological sex's hormones haven't had a chance to finish their work.
Actually, doctors are starting to let people transition as minors. The hormone therapy works a LOT better if the biological sex's hormones haven't had a chance to finish their work.
173
On this link that I posted yesterday, which shows that even before the prom thing, Constance was rabble rousing on Juin's behalf, she pronounces his name Joo-in.
http://www.wtva.com/mostpopular/story/Sc…
http://www.wtva.com/mostpopular/story/Sc…
174
@170: Like I told you earlier....sometimes a sledgehammer is the appropriate tool. Sometimes it isn't:)
176
Transsexualism and transgenderism are mental illnesses, and I fnd it shocking that persons afflicted with them would attempt to propogate the negative stereotping of mental illnesses. That helps ensure that pople don't get the help they need.
I suppose you tell depressed people to 'cheer up' and alcoholics to 'manage their drinking'.
But, aggressive narcissism and antisocial behavior disorder are comorbid with transsexualism and transgenderism in most clinical presentations.
I suppose you tell depressed people to 'cheer up' and alcoholics to 'manage their drinking'.
But, aggressive narcissism and antisocial behavior disorder are comorbid with transsexualism and transgenderism in most clinical presentations.
177
@176: Ooh, you know just about everything, don't you. I'm sorry, plenty of morons can use technical terms; it doesn't mean they're knowledgeable. And your poor spelling really doesn't help in that regard. I personally find it hard to believe that a true "responsible doc", someone who got through however many years of medical school, would be unable to spell "propagate" or "stereotyping" or "people". Especially with the aid of modern technology and the F7 key. For now, I consider you about as responsible as a phrenologist.
You know, transgender identity is not considered a mental disorder of any sort in Great Britain or France, for example*. And here in the US, we treat people by making their bodies match their minds rather than vice versa; it would be not only immoral but dangerous to take the alternate approach, since we know very little about the workings of the human psyche.
And for the record, I happen to be dating a person who struggles with depression, and when she's feeling down, I do tell her to cheer up. And it works! Shows what you know, you washed-up snake oil salesman.
*http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/trans…, http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/20…
You know, transgender identity is not considered a mental disorder of any sort in Great Britain or France, for example*. And here in the US, we treat people by making their bodies match their minds rather than vice versa; it would be not only immoral but dangerous to take the alternate approach, since we know very little about the workings of the human psyche.
And for the record, I happen to be dating a person who struggles with depression, and when she's feeling down, I do tell her to cheer up. And it works! Shows what you know, you washed-up snake oil salesman.
*http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/trans…, http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/20…
178
@176: Speaking of aggressive narcissism and antisocial behavior is something you know quite a lot about, it seems. Perhaps that knowledge comes from self diagnosis?
179
Forgive me, a close friend of mine sent me this link, I have never been to this site before and am unfamiliar with how things work exactly. But if I may play devil's advocate for a moment...
This Dan person, seems to be bashing LGBT but at the same time raising awareness and providing ways to help out not just individuals but others in the community. (Again, I'm not sure if he just made the tid-bit at the bottom or what's going on). Sometimes the best way to get attention is to cause a ruckus and if offending the people you agree with creates more action to support your cause... to do it shows true dedication. To me, it seems like basic psychology, obviously a story like this is going to create a heated conversation, supporters of Juin (like myself) are certainly upset when hearing of events like this. Perhaps not everyone gets as emotional as I do when I feel passionately about something, but reading a powerful story like this then hearing someone use trans-gender as a slur or insult, is only going to make me want to take more action and try to educate the uninformed; and I think that was Dan's intention. Dan's last lines left me with sarcastic tone; it seems unlikely that anyone would call themselves that if they truely hated these people (not to mention taking it to the extreme of bigot). I try to look at issues I am unfamiliar with from both sides of the issue, so I can see how these kinds of events are shocking to anyone with feelings one way or the other. This is not a social norm, especially, from my understanding, not in this specific town, so yes, I can see where someone with a completely different outlook on gender roles would be quite distracted by the arrival or a new student dressing in clothes more typically worn by women, while still wanting to be called by their current physical gender; male. I think there have been valid points made on both sides. Yes, moving to small town south is going to be hard for someone in Juin's situation, and yes, it does seem like that was probably no ones first choice on where to go. I mean no disrespect, so please don't take this statement the wrong way... In our society, and in many others globally, there is a social norm, and whether or not "Mother-Culture" is right or wrong (wrong 90% of the time, no doubt), going to an unfamiliar place, aware of their culture (the south not known for being open and welcoming to diversity) it does seem only logical one would be quite cautious; at least in the first few days. For example, here, it is acceptable to wear certain styles of clothing (i.e. low cut shirts, tank tops, sandals, etc). In some cultures this is far from acceptable. One could not simply go to many places and assert their dress-style in a get-used-to-it manner... I am in support of Juin, and others like him, completely... wear what you want, and be who you are. I try as hard as I possibly can to remove prejudices from my thinking, and even in my lifetime I feel things are (slowly) moving in the right direction. I do however, think something does need to be said for doing a complete 180 of social norms, it is obviously going to cause unrest. I can't stress enough that I do not personally have a problem with anyone who choose to be themselves, even if that is "different" but If i greeted people with "fuck you" I would receive similar treatment I'm sure. I know that seems like an absurd example but it is the exact opposite of what you are "supposed" to do. I think its a valid point the article does not describe the outfit warn on the first day, but moving to a small town where no one knows you, if you are wearing boarderline "feminine" clothes on your first day it probably wouldn't get you suspended, I presume his outfit was much different than what most of the other people in the area were wearing.
All that said, it is very sad to me to see someone treated so poorly because they have a different dress-style and/or personality. I do wish for a day when any person can be anywhere, doing whatever they want (as long as no one else is hurt, of course) and that is acceptable. Its your life, enjoy it. Don't hide from who you are and don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. I know that's easy for me to say as a tall, straight, white male in my mid 20's but I think its goes with what 177 said, sometimes its just letting someone know that life isn't easy but you have someone there that is at least understanding of the fact you have something on your mind. Its nice to be told everything is going to be okay, even though you know it won't be. Hearing encouragement is always positive, certainly there are be better ways to help an alcoholic than simply manage their drinking but even that is saying "I'm wanting to see you well, I care about you". Think back to being a child... when you woke up with a nightmare, sometimes hearing someone close to you remind you it was just a dream and everything is fine now, was all it took to get you back to sleep.
More...
This Dan person, seems to be bashing LGBT but at the same time raising awareness and providing ways to help out not just individuals but others in the community. (Again, I'm not sure if he just made the tid-bit at the bottom or what's going on). Sometimes the best way to get attention is to cause a ruckus and if offending the people you agree with creates more action to support your cause... to do it shows true dedication. To me, it seems like basic psychology, obviously a story like this is going to create a heated conversation, supporters of Juin (like myself) are certainly upset when hearing of events like this. Perhaps not everyone gets as emotional as I do when I feel passionately about something, but reading a powerful story like this then hearing someone use trans-gender as a slur or insult, is only going to make me want to take more action and try to educate the uninformed; and I think that was Dan's intention. Dan's last lines left me with sarcastic tone; it seems unlikely that anyone would call themselves that if they truely hated these people (not to mention taking it to the extreme of bigot). I try to look at issues I am unfamiliar with from both sides of the issue, so I can see how these kinds of events are shocking to anyone with feelings one way or the other. This is not a social norm, especially, from my understanding, not in this specific town, so yes, I can see where someone with a completely different outlook on gender roles would be quite distracted by the arrival or a new student dressing in clothes more typically worn by women, while still wanting to be called by their current physical gender; male. I think there have been valid points made on both sides. Yes, moving to small town south is going to be hard for someone in Juin's situation, and yes, it does seem like that was probably no ones first choice on where to go. I mean no disrespect, so please don't take this statement the wrong way... In our society, and in many others globally, there is a social norm, and whether or not "Mother-Culture" is right or wrong (wrong 90% of the time, no doubt), going to an unfamiliar place, aware of their culture (the south not known for being open and welcoming to diversity) it does seem only logical one would be quite cautious; at least in the first few days. For example, here, it is acceptable to wear certain styles of clothing (i.e. low cut shirts, tank tops, sandals, etc). In some cultures this is far from acceptable. One could not simply go to many places and assert their dress-style in a get-used-to-it manner... I am in support of Juin, and others like him, completely... wear what you want, and be who you are. I try as hard as I possibly can to remove prejudices from my thinking, and even in my lifetime I feel things are (slowly) moving in the right direction. I do however, think something does need to be said for doing a complete 180 of social norms, it is obviously going to cause unrest. I can't stress enough that I do not personally have a problem with anyone who choose to be themselves, even if that is "different" but If i greeted people with "fuck you" I would receive similar treatment I'm sure. I know that seems like an absurd example but it is the exact opposite of what you are "supposed" to do. I think its a valid point the article does not describe the outfit warn on the first day, but moving to a small town where no one knows you, if you are wearing boarderline "feminine" clothes on your first day it probably wouldn't get you suspended, I presume his outfit was much different than what most of the other people in the area were wearing.
All that said, it is very sad to me to see someone treated so poorly because they have a different dress-style and/or personality. I do wish for a day when any person can be anywhere, doing whatever they want (as long as no one else is hurt, of course) and that is acceptable. Its your life, enjoy it. Don't hide from who you are and don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. I know that's easy for me to say as a tall, straight, white male in my mid 20's but I think its goes with what 177 said, sometimes its just letting someone know that life isn't easy but you have someone there that is at least understanding of the fact you have something on your mind. Its nice to be told everything is going to be okay, even though you know it won't be. Hearing encouragement is always positive, certainly there are be better ways to help an alcoholic than simply manage their drinking but even that is saying "I'm wanting to see you well, I care about you". Think back to being a child... when you woke up with a nightmare, sometimes hearing someone close to you remind you it was just a dream and everything is fine now, was all it took to get you back to sleep.
180
I somehow missed #156 until just now, I suppose that does change things slightly and I apologize now for referring to Juin as a he, I meant no disrespect. This now brings a thought to mind I haven't yet crossed, if one does not relate specifically to a gender, what should this person be called when using a name becomes repetitive? I assume its obvious in my post above my upbringing was very conservative and closed, it wasn't until my late teen years I actually opened my eyes and mind to different ways of thinking and I am still trying to learn how to think outside the box; to be cliche.
182
any update on how much money we've raised? I'm debating giving more but curious how much there is so far.
thanks,
Chelle
thanks,
Chelle
184
For those who think moving to Austin was the solution...my Transgender child is being home schooled in Austin for the same reason...Trans children are treated with contempt even in some of the most "accepting" places.
And to the question "What's with the male pronouns?", apparently this child decided to take a break from dealing with the abuse, and will "make a new start" in High School. Can you blame a sixteen yr old for not wanting to go through the rejection in yet another school? town?
Should the world be more tolerant of differences? Yes. Should we fight this kind of abuse and stand up for our rights to be different? Yes, absolutely...but we can't throw our children to the wolves in order to make the change; not all children are like Constance, and able to take a stand. Many of these children are just trying to survive (the suicide rate for Trans children is even higher than that for LGB kids, which is already much too high).
Signed,
Mother of an awesome Trangender child in Austin
And to the question "What's with the male pronouns?", apparently this child decided to take a break from dealing with the abuse, and will "make a new start" in High School. Can you blame a sixteen yr old for not wanting to go through the rejection in yet another school? town?
Should the world be more tolerant of differences? Yes. Should we fight this kind of abuse and stand up for our rights to be different? Yes, absolutely...but we can't throw our children to the wolves in order to make the change; not all children are like Constance, and able to take a stand. Many of these children are just trying to survive (the suicide rate for Trans children is even higher than that for LGB kids, which is already much too high).
Signed,
Mother of an awesome Trangender child in Austin
185
@ 166, you say
"Also, please understand that many mental issues transfolk may be perceived as having are the result of living in a society where cis, white, christian males make the rules."
But isn't that what needs to be changed, not your bodies? If a transwoman could be seen as what she is, a woman, regardless of body parts she may or may not have, why would she get rid of a sexual organ that, presumably, brings her pleasure? If cis, white, christian males said you're not a woman if you have a penis, why must transfolk buy into it?
"Also, please understand that many mental issues transfolk may be perceived as having are the result of living in a society where cis, white, christian males make the rules."
But isn't that what needs to be changed, not your bodies? If a transwoman could be seen as what she is, a woman, regardless of body parts she may or may not have, why would she get rid of a sexual organ that, presumably, brings her pleasure? If cis, white, christian males said you're not a woman if you have a penis, why must transfolk buy into it?
186
The idea that transwomen universally get sexual pleasure from having a penis is part of the problem. pretty much every transwoman that I know has no desire to use that particular part of their anatomy. They don't like seeing it, talking about it, and certainly don't want someone playing with it. I'm not saying this is true in all cases. But by large measure it is true. We change our bodies to fit what we feel we are. Some people are happy being cisgendered. Some of us are completely comfortable straddling the line between the gender binary. Blurring gender norms is a good thing, in my opinion. Some of us have a disconnect between body and mind. The body is the issue, and that's what gets changed.
I will agree that the way we are viewed by society needs to be changed. That's why I'm saying all the things I'm saying in this thread. People seem to have this inherent need to keep everything in it's own little box, and they box according to their own perceptions. People generally don't like things they don't understand or are unfamiliar with. So they keep those boxes they don't understand or like for whatever reason locked in the dark corner of the closet. Or we get kicked out of school, denied entrance to the prom, or our heads get smashed by haters with fire extinguishers, and so on.
Because of the way we are portrayed in the media, we're either looked at as freaks, jokes, oddities, or objects in someone's sexual fetishes .We're rarely shown as intelligent, productive human beings. Watch Jerry Springer, or peruse any porn site, and you'll see what I mean. The feature movies I've seen have done little to change this perception. The list goes on and on showing transfolk in negative ways.
People don't often realize that because of the way society works, we are often reduced to supporting ourselves in any way we can. Religious "morals" dictate that we are an abomination. Like I said earlier, education is hard to get, because even menial jobs are hard to get. The law often makes things worse. Pretty much every facet of surviving, which SHOULD be a basic human right, is orders of magnitude more difficult for transfolk. And often much more dangerous.
I'm sorry, but I could go on at great length about this stuff. These are complex issues, and don't deserve one line answers. If you want to talk more, shoot me a message through the website on my profile.
I hope this helps you.
Cheers.
More...
I will agree that the way we are viewed by society needs to be changed. That's why I'm saying all the things I'm saying in this thread. People seem to have this inherent need to keep everything in it's own little box, and they box according to their own perceptions. People generally don't like things they don't understand or are unfamiliar with. So they keep those boxes they don't understand or like for whatever reason locked in the dark corner of the closet. Or we get kicked out of school, denied entrance to the prom, or our heads get smashed by haters with fire extinguishers, and so on.
Because of the way we are portrayed in the media, we're either looked at as freaks, jokes, oddities, or objects in someone's sexual fetishes .We're rarely shown as intelligent, productive human beings. Watch Jerry Springer, or peruse any porn site, and you'll see what I mean. The feature movies I've seen have done little to change this perception. The list goes on and on showing transfolk in negative ways.
People don't often realize that because of the way society works, we are often reduced to supporting ourselves in any way we can. Religious "morals" dictate that we are an abomination. Like I said earlier, education is hard to get, because even menial jobs are hard to get. The law often makes things worse. Pretty much every facet of surviving, which SHOULD be a basic human right, is orders of magnitude more difficult for transfolk. And often much more dangerous.
I'm sorry, but I could go on at great length about this stuff. These are complex issues, and don't deserve one line answers. If you want to talk more, shoot me a message through the website on my profile.
I hope this helps you.
Cheers.
187
@184: Kudos to you for being a supportive and caring parent. You have my utmost respect. We need more people like you in the world.
Cheers!
Cheers!
189
@185:
Uh, I don't get it. Is it in your mind that transwomen are transgender or transsexual? Your course of logic suggests transgenders. And again, I cannot speak for them. You should be clear about the population for whom you're referring when you raise this question. It's not a trivial detail.
But as a transsexual woman? I'll tell you why. I have a sexual organ. It's called, no uncertain terms, a cunt. People playing with it — myself included — brings me tremendous pleasure (goddamn, does it ever!). I have a cunt because I want to fuck and be fucked on my own terms. And before I assumed ownership over my body, I couldn't do that. My body, my self. That's why.
Have a nice day.
If a transwoman could be seen as what she is, a woman, regardless of body parts she may or may not have, why would she get rid of a sexual organ that, presumably, brings her pleasure?
Uh, I don't get it. Is it in your mind that transwomen are transgender or transsexual? Your course of logic suggests transgenders. And again, I cannot speak for them. You should be clear about the population for whom you're referring when you raise this question. It's not a trivial detail.
But as a transsexual woman? I'll tell you why. I have a sexual organ. It's called, no uncertain terms, a cunt. People playing with it — myself included — brings me tremendous pleasure (goddamn, does it ever!). I have a cunt because I want to fuck and be fucked on my own terms. And before I assumed ownership over my body, I couldn't do that. My body, my self. That's why.
Have a nice day.
190
@Tesla: Succinct and well said. I think we all want to live or own lives on our own terms.
Some people just can't help forcing others to see things their way, though.
Some people just can't help forcing others to see things their way, though.
191
What Tesla actually has is either a Suporn Technique or a Penile Inversion (there are other less common procedures). In either case, a neo-vagina is created from male genital tissue. From Tesla's descriptions (if they can be trusted), the procedure was successful in disassembling a functional penis and creating a non-functional simulacrum of a vagina. In Telsa's case, 'she' reports that 'she' maintains sensation from the procedure. It should be noted, however, that this sensation is in fact he sensation of the stimulation of male sexual nerves, and not female ones, as Tesla has no female sexual organs. Only mutilated male ones. It is a delicate procedure that requires an enormous amount of surgical skill (although, as I have noted before, I am not a surgeon.).
192
@191: Why are "you" here?
We know "you're" not a surgeon. But we're certain "you" are indeed an asshole.
We know "you're" not a surgeon. But we're certain "you" are indeed an asshole.
193
Trans, Proud and happy with my surgical alterations, I will fight for others to have them as well...
196
I'm not sure why you're here, Responsible Doc. You're opinions don't seem to be having any effect, other than presenting you as a busy body. Perhaps, your bedside manner needs some work or you could wait for a consultation in the future?
Anyway, I'm guessing that these ladies would knock your socks off if you were fortunate enough to pass them on the street. Perhaps, that alone is enough to intimidate you? Heaven knows the world certainly doesn't need anymore beautiful happy people in it.
And, to the lovely Ms. Telsa and Ms. TheNastyDrummerGirl, I'll buy you each a drink if we are ever at a Slog Happy together. Keep in mind, I don't make it very often, but when I do we will toast your marvelous empowered lives!
Anyway, I'm guessing that these ladies would knock your socks off if you were fortunate enough to pass them on the street. Perhaps, that alone is enough to intimidate you? Heaven knows the world certainly doesn't need anymore beautiful happy people in it.
And, to the lovely Ms. Telsa and Ms. TheNastyDrummerGirl, I'll buy you each a drink if we are ever at a Slog Happy together. Keep in mind, I don't make it very often, but when I do we will toast your marvelous empowered lives!
197
@ Kim: I'd drive to PDX for that cocktail, but I have to have one or two with Herr Savage first:)
Nice Strat, by the way. Anytime you're up this way, give me a holler and we'll hang out!
Nice Strat, by the way. Anytime you're up this way, give me a holler and we'll hang out!
198
Responsible Doc: Give your full name. It's unethical and irresponsible for a doctor to give medical advice or medical opinions without identifying themselves and where they practice.
199
@191: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Responsible Doc. Does it mean anything that it's biologically male sexual nerves getting all tingly? Saying "oh, you're not really being fucked on your own terms because you were born a dude and still have a dude's nerves" is like saying "you're not really practicing your religion the way you like because you're still from a family that's of a different faith". We are not defined by who we are born; we are who we choose to be.
And hey, Responsible Doc, unless you are Telsa's lover, fuck buddy, or friend with benefits, I'd advise you to stay out of her cunt.
And hey, Responsible Doc, unless you are Telsa's lover, fuck buddy, or friend with benefits, I'd advise you to stay out of her cunt.
200
@199: I am defined by who I am and by the things I do on a day to day basis. Pretty boring stuff.
My having this life experience is no more a choice than it is for Dan for choosing to be a cissexual gay man.
My having this life experience is no more a choice than it is for Dan for choosing to be a cissexual gay man.
201
Agrees with 200, on all counts.
I seriously don't know why anyone would choose to live this life. Perhaps if people actually read the story that started this whole thread, they'd ask themselves if they'd choose to have the same things happen to them.
I believe they'd rethink the idea that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or whatever is a choice.
I seriously don't know why anyone would choose to live this life. Perhaps if people actually read the story that started this whole thread, they'd ask themselves if they'd choose to have the same things happen to them.
I believe they'd rethink the idea that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or whatever is a choice.
202
Who the hell is Tesla? Why are any of you even engaging Responsible Doc, who doesn't even know the name of the person he's commenting about? And why is Responsible Doc trying to pass himself (or herself) off as an expert (claiming the "Doc" name) when he/she admits to not being a surgeon?
But to engage, because that's what Slog is for, nerves don't have gender @191 (asshole Larry Summers' opinion notwithstanding) -- the package they come in do, which in men is shaped from the default female tissue and organs to male ones via testosterone during development.
And are you suggesting, Responsible Doc, that surgeons should never fix things that our developing bodies got wrong? A lot of people with split lips would disagree with you. And are you saying that women who have non-functioning sex organs are not actually women? I'm guessing there are more of them than the split-lip faction. At some point as you age, your sex organs are going to stop work working -- can't wait to hear from you that you've stopped being whatever sex you are now and turned into something else. Hell, maybe you're sterile already.
But to engage, because that's what Slog is for, nerves don't have gender @191 (asshole Larry Summers' opinion notwithstanding) -- the package they come in do, which in men is shaped from the default female tissue and organs to male ones via testosterone during development.
And are you suggesting, Responsible Doc, that surgeons should never fix things that our developing bodies got wrong? A lot of people with split lips would disagree with you. And are you saying that women who have non-functioning sex organs are not actually women? I'm guessing there are more of them than the split-lip faction. At some point as you age, your sex organs are going to stop work working -- can't wait to hear from you that you've stopped being whatever sex you are now and turned into something else. Hell, maybe you're sterile already.
203
@202: It doesn't matter that he was a boy-genius and tenured prof in his twenties: I'm glad he left Harvard after that second foot-in-mouth moment. But at what price paradise, now that he simply got shuffled back to D.C.? Oh wait, let's let all the "under-polluted" developing countries tell us. One could practically call his impending arrival to his next controversial appointment as a Summers Eve. (Oh yes, I did just went there.)
And who the hell am I? Nobody important, nobody relevant, nobody significant. Just nobody.
Why am I engaging RD? Because he's funny in a gallows kind of way: a closet case going into a frenzied tizzy at the mere mention of consensual body modification — the same entertaining reason, I think, why everyone on Slog engages the irresistibly detestable Loveschild. Both use deliciously contradictory, duplicitous monikers. That's kinda funny — that is, as seen through a lens of irony. RD's a closet case in that he plainly obsesses over this stuff the way a fag-hating politician seethes with very colourful descriptions of same-sex intimacy — making you always wonder just how and why homeslice knows so much for being so vehemently opposed. Q, E, and D.
Why else? Because I like to procrastinate from other work I need to be doing. :)
And who the hell am I? Nobody important, nobody relevant, nobody significant. Just nobody.
Why am I engaging RD? Because he's funny in a gallows kind of way: a closet case going into a frenzied tizzy at the mere mention of consensual body modification — the same entertaining reason, I think, why everyone on Slog engages the irresistibly detestable Loveschild. Both use deliciously contradictory, duplicitous monikers. That's kinda funny — that is, as seen through a lens of irony. RD's a closet case in that he plainly obsesses over this stuff the way a fag-hating politician seethes with very colourful descriptions of same-sex intimacy — making you always wonder just how and why homeslice knows so much for being so vehemently opposed. Q, E, and D.
Why else? Because I like to procrastinate from other work I need to be doing. :)
204
I'm just cracking up right now!
And Tesla, you are somebody. I for one am glad to have had the pleasure of chatting with you:)
And Tesla, you are somebody. I for one am glad to have had the pleasure of chatting with you:)
205
@200: I should mention that the choice I obliquely referred to is the choice to accept who you are and reflect it in your appearance rather than suppress it and live as who you physically were. As the close friend of several LGBTQ people and a dedicated follower of science, I am well aware that gender identity and sexual orientation are not matters of choice. My apologies if there was any misunderstanding.
Also, I've noticed people usually referring to you as Tesla. Are you Tesla or Telsa?
Also, I've noticed people usually referring to you as Tesla. Are you Tesla or Telsa?
206
@205: I'm not trying to be a hard-arse with you, but I certainly sound like it.
My appearance doesn't play into this discussion, nor do I have a gender identity any more than Dan might. Then again, I don't play nice with most gender theorists and about everyone I've known who identifies as transgender. When this hot topic isn't raised, I consider transgender people as, at most, allies. But when the topic is raised, all gloves off.
I once argued that gender cannot be an "identity", as it is an unintentional articulation in the way that one unconsciously communicates with others within a social environment. Gender, then, is an articulation as much as a linguistic dialect is an articulation — an unintentional component of one's life experiences.
Drawing attention to either articulation, of course, allows for latitude to lampoon or play around with it. That's what voice acting and drag are all about, respectively. It is because I argue this point that transgenders really don't care for me when this topic comes up: I am effectively telling them that no one can "change gender", and this invalidates their argument concerning "identity". It makes a lot of people extremely cranky. So articulation is unconscious unless it is deliberate play. At the end of the day, once all the toys have been put away, the play ends and the unconscious resumes where it left off before recess.
A hypothesis can be drawn from this, though how well it can be tested in controlled settings is less clear: why some transsexual people are perceived as an archetypal model that someone like Dan might latch onto in a Slog posting, and why some transsexual people just don't fit the archetypal model no matter how hard anyone tries to imagine it. I advance that it goes back to one's unconscious articulation of self where gender is concerned.
The answer is yes. Dyslexia, probably. I'll check.
More...
My appearance doesn't play into this discussion, nor do I have a gender identity any more than Dan might. Then again, I don't play nice with most gender theorists and about everyone I've known who identifies as transgender. When this hot topic isn't raised, I consider transgender people as, at most, allies. But when the topic is raised, all gloves off.
I once argued that gender cannot be an "identity", as it is an unintentional articulation in the way that one unconsciously communicates with others within a social environment. Gender, then, is an articulation as much as a linguistic dialect is an articulation — an unintentional component of one's life experiences.
Drawing attention to either articulation, of course, allows for latitude to lampoon or play around with it. That's what voice acting and drag are all about, respectively. It is because I argue this point that transgenders really don't care for me when this topic comes up: I am effectively telling them that no one can "change gender", and this invalidates their argument concerning "identity". It makes a lot of people extremely cranky. So articulation is unconscious unless it is deliberate play. At the end of the day, once all the toys have been put away, the play ends and the unconscious resumes where it left off before recess.
A hypothesis can be drawn from this, though how well it can be tested in controlled settings is less clear: why some transsexual people are perceived as an archetypal model that someone like Dan might latch onto in a Slog posting, and why some transsexual people just don't fit the archetypal model no matter how hard anyone tries to imagine it. I advance that it goes back to one's unconscious articulation of self where gender is concerned.
Are you Tesla or Telsa?
The answer is yes. Dyslexia, probably. I'll check.
207
ATTENTION EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T THINK THE SLOG AUDIENCE--OR DAN'S AUDIENCE--CONTAINS ANY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DIPSHIT TRANSPHOBIA FAIL:
You see Responsible Doc, the commenter trolling a thread about a transgender teenager with comments about what trans women should do with their genitalia, and why they should do these things?
That right there is fucked up. Okay? It's invasive, it's demeaning, it's nasty, and it's fucking ignorant.
In other words, IT'S TRANSPHOBIC. This is what you get when your culture is transphobic. And this, friends, is the shit that trans people and trans women have to listen to every single fucking time their presence is acknowledged.
You see Responsible Doc, the commenter trolling a thread about a transgender teenager with comments about what trans women should do with their genitalia, and why they should do these things?
That right there is fucked up. Okay? It's invasive, it's demeaning, it's nasty, and it's fucking ignorant.
In other words, IT'S TRANSPHOBIC. This is what you get when your culture is transphobic. And this, friends, is the shit that trans people and trans women have to listen to every single fucking time their presence is acknowledged.
208
That school can burn down for all I care. It's people like them in that lil town that we really don't need in this world. They bring nothing but hatred and sadness in people's lives.
209
The ENDA needs to be changed to the EENDA. The Employment & Education Non-Discrimination Act and passed and signed by this congress. This is ridiculous.
211
Living in western Canada I've never experienced this kind of hate firsthand, or known anyone who has been exposed to that kind of abuse. It pains me greatly to think that there are areas of the world where we should just "Expect" certain people to be treated as less than human. As for waiting until these people are "adults" to be "treated" for starters the age of an adult is different everywhere, and most of these individuals will have fully developed bodies years before that age and already know they are not satisfied with them the way they are. It just leads to that much more time of suffering.
I really wish one day we'll all be safe and happy everywhere on this earth, but until then you're all very welcome north of the border.
I really wish one day we'll all be safe and happy everywhere on this earth, but until then you're all very welcome north of the border.
212
Mother could have pressed the school to state reason for suspension or have it lifted, at which point the school would have to put it in writing or let the kid in, at which point the ACLU could have stepped in. And, though intolerance should not be anywhere....move your trans kid to a vo/ag school in rural Mississippi? Seriously? And not just the school, but grandma, who responded by suspending her own family who had moved across the country in expectation of shelter.
What a train wreck.
What a train wreck.
214
@206, linguistic dialects *can* be changed. For instance, by talking a lot with people who have a dialect that you want. Subconscious habits can be trained, and we do so all the time when we learn new skills.
215
@206, linguistic dialects *can* be changed. For instance, by talking a lot with people who have a dialect that you want. It's not uncommon to pick up the speech patterns used in your workplace, and even slip into them in other situations. The gender expression learned by transgendered people may not be the same as the one used by cisgendered people of the same (expressed) gender, but the difference may not be vast.
216
I live in Florida and have friends that have taken academic classes through Florida Virtual School (I've only taken the crap graduation requirements through it). The program isn't too bad, but real school is much better. No matter where Juin goes, he will be ostracized in some ways. And in some places, Florida is very much "southern" in the "Southern Baptist" kind of way. Stick to university towns! We tend to be more accepting. :)
217
Those of you who diss the south need to get a life. No wonder us southern people can't stand yankees! This kid went to a small school in a small town knowing he was going to be looked at by students in a weird way. That isn't just expected at Itawamba. It would happen twenty minutes down the road at Tupelo, a large school. Y'all are standing up for him now, but if you saw him, you'd be like most students and stare at him. If the school wouldn't have sent him home, he would have gotten dome checked by a southern boy who would tell him he needs to accept that he is a male. Y'all think us southern people aren't faithful to God when we are the ones who are Christians. And Constance has lied to the news media because nobody at school has said anything to her. She has said crap that isn't true for the attention.
218
Where is this kids daddy in all this? It is the parents job to make sure these kids are dressed right for school. Nothing against transg in general but in schooll he is around other minor children. I beleive int hese cases parents just let them do anything and are afraid to tell them no. How the heck does anyone their ages know they are trans gay lesbian wit no life experience. I had no idea about any realionships. Kids grow up too fast now..
220
Wait, how can I cycle these comments back to homeopathy?
*snaps fingers*
I've got it! Public displays of gayness at prom . . . coming out . . . James "The Amazing" Randi coming out at 81 . . . the same James Randi who spends much of his time demonstrating the stupidity of homeopathy! Including an excellent test funded by the BBC, I seem to remember. In fact, it's available in my YouTube favorites — it's called "The Homeopathy Test BBC". (My channel is just a click away, in my profile.)
*snaps fingers*
I've got it! Public displays of gayness at prom . . . coming out . . . James "The Amazing" Randi coming out at 81 . . . the same James Randi who spends much of his time demonstrating the stupidity of homeopathy! Including an excellent test funded by the BBC, I seem to remember. In fact, it's available in my YouTube favorites — it's called "The Homeopathy Test BBC". (My channel is just a click away, in my profile.)
221
To all the people who won't read this dead thread, a final response to @214/5:
A linguist would tell you that "it depends":
With considerable effort, dialects within the same linguistic family can seamlessly change (e.g., Dutch to English, English to Germa,; Swedish to Danish — all of these are Germanic family languages). In such cases, dialects can so completely change, regardless when one relocated and learnt the new language that a Dutch national could, after moving, sound like a born anglophone Canadian in just a few years, and a German national could, after moving, sound natively Scottish after the same. It takes work. A lot of it. But it can be done.
Changing dialects between linguistic families, however, can only happen when the person moves to a new linguistic environment — and like the above, works hard to take on a new dialect (and language) — before the age of about 12 or 13. Changing linguistic families after this age, due to the way the brain optimizes neural connections for language specialization around this age, results with at best an absolute fluency with the new language, but the dialect will reveal the speaker to have origins from a place where the first language came from another linguistic family.
Incidentally, the linguistic anthropologist who taught this interesting point was a Czech national who, at age 14, moved to North America and has lived here ever since. Czech is Balto-Slavic; English is Germanic. His command and fluency of English is as good, if not better than native English speakers. His verbal articulation, however, still reveals traces of being raised in Czechoslovakia, despite spending more twice the amount of time living here.
So goes, given the above, that gender is an articulation — not an identity — the way a dialect is an articulation (also not an identity). Think about it. Don't necessarily agree with it, but think about it.
More...
A linguist would tell you that "it depends":
With considerable effort, dialects within the same linguistic family can seamlessly change (e.g., Dutch to English, English to Germa,; Swedish to Danish — all of these are Germanic family languages). In such cases, dialects can so completely change, regardless when one relocated and learnt the new language that a Dutch national could, after moving, sound like a born anglophone Canadian in just a few years, and a German national could, after moving, sound natively Scottish after the same. It takes work. A lot of it. But it can be done.
Changing dialects between linguistic families, however, can only happen when the person moves to a new linguistic environment — and like the above, works hard to take on a new dialect (and language) — before the age of about 12 or 13. Changing linguistic families after this age, due to the way the brain optimizes neural connections for language specialization around this age, results with at best an absolute fluency with the new language, but the dialect will reveal the speaker to have origins from a place where the first language came from another linguistic family.
Incidentally, the linguistic anthropologist who taught this interesting point was a Czech national who, at age 14, moved to North America and has lived here ever since. Czech is Balto-Slavic; English is Germanic. His command and fluency of English is as good, if not better than native English speakers. His verbal articulation, however, still reveals traces of being raised in Czechoslovakia, despite spending more twice the amount of time living here.
So goes, given the above, that gender is an articulation — not an identity — the way a dialect is an articulation (also not an identity). Think about it. Don't necessarily agree with it, but think about it.
223
Hey Juin & family, if you're browsing here. Good luck in your new home, I hope the donations collected here are helping. Just remember school (aka to some of us fraudulent government child indoctrination prisons) is short and you have a whole life to figure out the world and how you fit into it, free of the nonsense imposed on you by the hegemony. Laissez faire and good luck : )
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
224
If these people in HER life were more supportive, they would use the right pronouns and stop calling Juin a 'boy'-- if she is transgendered male to female, then female pronouns are the correct ones.
No one in any of this is actually supportive of Juin.
No one in any of this is actually supportive of Juin.
225
This kid is just an attention whore. "Uh, yeah ... I dress like a girl but I'd rather be called a guy!". It's one thing to genuinely struggle with this kind of thing, another to use it as a way to get attention. Sorry, can't get on the bandwagon in this instance.
226
Juin, like Constance, would be more than welcome here in Milwaukee at The Alliance School (a bullying-free public school).
I'm a white heterosexual born-again Christian, and I'm proud of my daughter for choosing to attend Alliance. They're a great bunch, both kids and teachers.
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
proud to be in Milwaukee
ashamed to be an ex-Mississippian
I'm a white heterosexual born-again Christian, and I'm proud of my daughter for choosing to attend Alliance. They're a great bunch, both kids and teachers.
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
proud to be in Milwaukee
ashamed to be an ex-Mississippian
228
what does this have to do with civil rights. Boys should dress like boys and girls should dress like girls. The school stood up for what is right. The school is trying to teach kids about all areas of life. This is an area of life that should be handled at home but weak parents who do not set boundaries confuse kids. I am sad for Juin. I am sad for all of you that think this is about civil rights. I am sad for the lack of standards that this world has.
The Lord is my Shepard. He leads me down green pastures. He restores my soul.
The Lord is my Shepard. He leads me down green pastures. He restores my soul.
229
Fuck you, DAN! You stupid piece of shit! Do you really think we are going to forget your multiple instances of transphobia?!?! Fuck you and the pretend fundraiser you rode in on!!
231
My name is Krystal Mountaine and I live in Washington State. I am a 42 year old M to F transsexual and a trans activist. I am executive director of Sigma Fem Lambda the transgendered sisterhood and would love to find a way to help this young lady. Please contact me at 425-220-8898. or at krystaltsgirl@sigmafemlambda.org
232
My name is Krystal Mountaine and I live in Washington State. I am a 42 year old M to F transsexual and a trans activist. I am executive director of Sigma Fem Lambda the transgendered sisterhood and would love to find a way to help this young lady. Please contact me at 425-220-8898. or at krystaltsgirl@sigmafemlambda.org
235
I spent the first 30 years of my life in Pensacola, Florida. I fear that Juin is not going to have a better experience there than he did in Mississippi.
236
it really is hard to express yourself in MS. i know because i am gay and i live in small town in MS. and people down here seem to be stuck back in the 20th century where homosexuality was frowned upon. but i also know what Juin is going threw. people down here are cruel to people who are different.
237
this infiriates me! i am a MtF transgender, and something like this happened at my school as well!!! and i was not able to wear a skirt because i had a penis. i should have told him to suck it hard and left it at that! i'll wear a shirt if i want to wear a skirt, and if i am in the mood a *gasp* dress!
i am who i am, and if i want to be than me i will be. me i am, no i hate green eggs and ham
i am who i am, and if i want to be than me i will be. me i am, no i hate green eggs and ham
238
I also attended an Accredited Online High School, primarily because I didn't like my school. I completely support Juin! We should all be able to express ourselves as we see fit!
239
Wow! I can;t believe people are still this closed minded! People will be who they want to be, you can't stop them! I went to an Accredited Online High School because I didn't like my school, but I support Juin's reasons more then my own!
240
I use to live and go to IAHS, and being black maybe just as worse as being transgender. Fulton is a town that is still in the dark ages. If you're not a good old boy and say yes mam no sir, stay in your place then there is a problem. You still have people who believe that they are better just because they have a different skin color. If a black student goes with a white student then there's a possibility that black student may be found brutally beaten or dead. I hope these young men (women) finds a place in the US that they can live normally but unfortunately Fulton is not the place. As a matter of fact Mississippi is not the place.
241
I was raised and went to IAHS and being black maybe just as bad as being transgender. If you're not a good old boy and say yes mam no sir and stay in your place then there is a problem. Even now is a black student goes with a white student it better be kept under wraps because the black student will be found badly beaten or dead. Fulton is the type of place that is still in the dark ages if you rock the boat you my drown. I hope these students finds a place where they can be themselves but Fulton is not the place as a matter of fact Mississippi is not the place.
242
No good can come from a school or town that practices hate. The pit awaits those who hate the afflicted. Juin is way better off going somewhere safe where there is love. Where there is love everyone thrives but where there is hate everyone looses.
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