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Saturday, March 20, 2010

Meanwhile in Mississippi

Posted by on Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 10:19 AM

Fulton's restricted, straights-only prom is on:

The school board's response states that parents have organized a private prom at a furniture mart in nearby Tupleo. Now that the school district has withdrawn from the event, any constitutional claims are irrelevant, Griffith wrote. [American Civil Liberties Union attorney Christine] Sun said she had only heard rumors of the private dance until she read it in the brief.

"Constance has not been invited, so it is clear to me that what is happening is that the school has encouraged a private prom that is not open to all the students," she said. "That's what Constance is fighting for—a prom where everyone can go."

On one discussion on an Internet bulletin board about the planned prom in Tupelo, a poster who identified himself as a junior at the high school said the prom would be "invitation only."

"Constance and her gay-activist friends will not be attending," he said. "They can go have their own prom because we certainly do not want any of them there."

The poster expressed frustration at the attention the issue had brought to the city of about 4,000.

Constance1.jpg
Constance McMillen didn't have any "gay activist friends" until after the Itawamba County School Board cancelled her high school's prom rather than allow Constance to attend with her girlfriend. It was the actions of the Itawamba County School Board that thrust Fulton into the national spotlight. No one would've heard of Constance—or Fulton, Mississippi, or Itawamba Agricultural—if the school and the school board had refrained from discriminating against Constance and hadn't canceled prom and invited the "community" to host a restricted prom.

And file this under boo-hoo-hoo:

An affidavit filed Friday in support of the school board by attorney James Keith claimed school board members have been been under "tremendous pressure" as a result of the controversy.

"The school board was caught in a no-win situation as this matter developed," Keith wrote. "One board member received threats at his place of employment because of the stance he had taken on the matter. Board members have received emails, telephone calls and Facebook messages regarding this matter."

Gee, it's almost as if a school board can't discriminate against a lesbian student with impunity anymore. What is the world coming to? And I would guess that the school board member who "received threats at his place of employment" is Eddie Hood. In addition to being one of the bigots on the Itawamba County School Board, Mr. Hood is an Allstate Insurance Agent. His contact email on the Itawamba County School Board's website when this story broke (since removed) was his work email—a082315@allstate.com—and this prompted some folks to write to Mr. Hood's employers. Here's one letter that was sent to Allstate:

Would I be able to purchase insurance from Eddie Hood Insurance in Tupelo, Mississippi? Or would he just close his office rather than take my business?

It's sickening that in this day and age, 40 years after the civil rights movement there are still individuals like Mr. Eddie Hood who blatantly descriminate against gays & lesbians.

I hope Allstate will send a message to its' employees/contractors/customers that it in no way sponsors this type of exclusionary, self-righteous and illegal behavior.

Sincerely,

Lee McDonald

Lee received this response from an Allstate rep in Virginia:

Dear Mr. McDonald:

Thank you for your request via Allstate.com. Your concerns are important to us and we appreciate the opportunity to address them.

Mr. Hood's service on the school board is no way connected to the Allstate Insurance Company. It is unfortunate that he used his Allstate email address which is not permissible. Allstate's policies support inclusive diversity in all our operations, including hiring and promotions, supplier diversity, marketing efforts and the communities in which we invest. Allstate's fair and equitable treatment of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) employees, consumers and investors has been recognized by the Human Rights Campaign's Corporate Equality Index. This commitment has been recognized in the awards and designations we received from national publications like DiversityInc magazine, which named Allstate one of the top 50 companies in the United States for diversity.

Matt Brickwedde
Customer Resolution Specialist
CES @ Roanoke
Allstate Insurance Company
1819 Electric Road
Roanoke, VA 24018
Phone 1-800-995-2587 Ext. 4583
Fax 1-866-224-5548
mbric@Allstate.com

Another reader CC'd me on a letter he sent to Allstate's board of directors—directors@allstate.com—and he received this response:

Dear Mr. Lock:

This email is in response to your email to the Directors@allstate.com. Your concerns are important to us and we appreciate the opportunity to address them.

Please be advised that Mr. Hood's service on the school board is no way connected to the Allstate Insurance Company. It is unfortunate that he used his Allstate email address which is not permissible. Allstate's policies support inclusive diversity in all our operations, including hiring and promotions, supplier diversity, marketing efforts and the communities in which we invest. Allstate's fair and equitable treatment of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) employees, consumers and investors has been recognized by the Human Rights Campaign's Corporate Equality Index. This commitment has been recognized in the awards and designations we received from national publications like DiversityInc magazine, which named Allstate one of the top 50 companies in the United States for diversity.

If you have any further questions, please give me a call at 847 402 5448.

Corinne Telesca
Executive Assistant
Chairman's Customer Care
Allstate Insurance Company
2775 Sanders Rd. Suite D9C
Northbrook,ILL 60062
Phone 847-402-5448
Fax 847-418-5966
acms9@allstate.com

So Allstate knows about Mr. Hood, isn't pleased, and identical emails are being sent from offices in Virginia and Illinois to Allstate customers who are writing in about Mr. Hood's actions. For the record: McDonald's letter isn't a "threat," it's an inquiry. Mr. Hood is an Allstate agent. In his capacity as a Itawamba County school board member Mr. Hood has demonstrated that he supports discrimination against gays and lesbians. It's fair to ask Allstate if Mr. Hood is allowed to discriminate against gay and lesbian customers and what Allstate—with its corporate commitment to diversity and non-discrimination—intends to do about the notorious homophobe that it currently employs in Fulton. Ask 'em:

directors@allstate.com

 

Comments (126) RSS

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reverend dr dj riz 1
if she can't sue and if she can't go, can she still take ellen up on her offer and have a bigger better prom than that private one she can't go to ?
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on March 20, 2010 at 10:29 AM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 3
The school board and town are feeling pressure? Good. Keep it coming.

In a way, I almost feel sorry for Allstate, since they probably had no idea the guy was a homophobe and merely got splattered when the shit hit the fan, but they're an insurance company, so I don't feel THAT bad for them.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on March 20, 2010 at 10:45 AM · Report this
Cracker Jack 5
@2 & 4: Luckily, we live in the United States of America, where we believe in the pursuit of happiness and liberty and justice for all -- not just for all straight people or all white people or even liberals. It just seems that way because liberals are more likely to embrace an inclusive ideology rather than conservatives.

You want to keep people from the American dream, you will be chastised. If you don't like it, move back to where you came from (hint - odds are, that isn't America).
Posted by Cracker Jack on March 20, 2010 at 10:51 AM · Report this
venomlash 7
Sadly, Allstate can't/won't fire the bastard, as he'd sue them for it, and he'd probably win, since he was not doing these things while on duty. And #2's a big blubbering baby for saying that he will lose his job. What they can do is pass him over for raises, promotions, or anything nice that they don't HAVE to give him.

@4: Alleged, how are you able to read these articles when you have your head so far up your ass? Constance had a reason to be allowed to attend the prom and bring a date, and the school dumped on everyone. It's like canceling a block party so you don't have to invite the black neighbors. If what the school did is acceptable, what about the example I gave? Hm?
Oh yes, that's right; you're an ignorant bigot who spins fata morganas about how Teh Gheys are oppressing him so he can feel justified in hating them. Go slide down a barbed-wire fence.
Posted by venomlash on March 20, 2010 at 10:57 AM · Report this
8
Dudes: Nobody is saying the private prom is legally required to invite anyone. The ACLU is suing public officials for shutting down a public event to keep out a gay student.
Posted by mai naim hear on March 20, 2010 at 10:57 AM · Report this
beckysharp 10
"Constance and her gay-activist friends will not be attending," he said. "They can go have their own prom because we certainly do not want any of them there."

I hope that junior never leaves the limits of his backwater town. It's a big world out here: there are many different kinds of people, cultures and behaviors to encounter and quite frankly someone who throws a hissy fit when they see someone who isn't a carbon copy of themselves isn't very well equipped to function as as an adult amongst the rest of us.

If their goal was to keep Baby in his playpen for the rest of his natural life, the teachers and administrators of Itawamba Agricultural have certainly succeeded.
Posted by beckysharp on March 20, 2010 at 11:00 AM · Report this
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 12

Photo essay of interest for SLOGgers

Notorious Teacher Sex Scandals

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-501143_162-5…

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://www.you-read-it-here-first.com on March 20, 2010 at 11:04 AM · Report this
reverend dr dj riz 14
yay for troll saturday !
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on March 20, 2010 at 11:09 AM · Report this
Dingo 17
Not only have the courts found that First Amendment rights to freedom of expression are protected even for students, but they have also found that attempts to circumvent those rights by doing what this school board has done (ie: cancelling the prom to supposedly avoid the problem of having to accommodate McMillen) are illegal. The private prom may well go ahead, but there will be repercussions for the school if they refuse to reinstate the school prom.
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 11:18 AM · Report this
18
So, in the very same high school where in their current social studies and history classes, they are teaching their student's about the First Amendment, yet they are going against the first amendment of freedom of expression....what a GREAT school system (sarcasm).
Posted by Katie2010 on March 20, 2010 at 11:21 AM · Report this
19
I'm no lawyer, but it appears to me that the school district is colluding with the private groups who are organizing this private, invitation-only prom. Has the school district put itself in any additional legal jeopardy by suggesting that a private prom be organized? (Sorry if this has been covered before, but I haven't read all of the comments on the many Constance-related stories.)
Posted by Lurker Jen on March 20, 2010 at 11:21 AM · Report this
zachd 20
Gay people go to public dances all the time. The only objection they had is *knowing* that she's gay. That's what they found offensive. It's all well and fine that she attended quietly.... but now their knowledge, not her character, is what drives their prejudice.

Once you realize that fundamental (and ugly) disconnect, the homophobic argument falls to pieces here.
Posted by zachd http://zachd.com on March 20, 2010 at 11:26 AM · Report this
reverend dr dj riz 22
yay... REGISTERED troll saturday !
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on March 20, 2010 at 11:32 AM · Report this
Dingo 24
It's not that governments are required to sponsor proms so that gay students can express themselves, it's that public bodies may not deny people their First Amendment rights by preventing them from having equal access. Don't get all incredulous on me: it's your system.
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 11:39 AM · Report this
beckysharp 25
@13

Like most of the world, I don't live in the United States. I've seen Americans of the Anonymous-type travel overseas. It's not a pretty sight. If they aren't bursting into tears when they realize that they won't be able to live on chain-restaurant burgers they wet their pants at the thought of using foreign words to buy a train ticket.

The tolerant type of Americans are rightly embarrassed by such hysteria, as most of your fellow citizens seem to be here. But if it helps you vent your panic about teh gayz here, go ahead...
Posted by beckysharp on March 20, 2010 at 11:39 AM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 26
Hey troll, your alleged facts that will burn our ears, what are these?

You make no sense. You're angry at people with whom you don't agree with, and then accuse them on not being able to get along w/ others.

I see no facts, nor logic, in your writing.

And to set you straight, the school board is a publicly-funded institution. Therefore, it should provide their services (and activities) to everyone who paid into it. Constance's family have paid their taxes like everyone else, they should also have access to the activities like everyone else. See how that works?

It's not an 'agenda,' it's being fair & legal. If people like yourself don't want to be in the same room as a homosexual, you can refuse the invitation. But everyone, bigot or straight or homosexual, must be invited.

The only 'agenda' I see is the Bigot Agenda to exclude people they think aren't human.

Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on March 20, 2010 at 11:44 AM · Report this
27
@19: Yes, the school district isn't helping its case with this little two-step to try and avoid liability. There is some precedent, such as Smith v. Allwright (the last of the White Primary Cases), for the proposition that state action pushing a state function off to a private party doesn't escape constitutional scrutiny.
Posted by AnonymousCoward on March 20, 2010 at 11:46 AM · Report this
roland of the gilead 28
Awe, look at the little puppytrollman getting all angry. It's okay lil' buddy! I know, words are hard. but read up, try again!
Posted by roland of the gilead on March 20, 2010 at 11:47 AM · Report this
30
I found school board memeber Teresa McNeece´s profile on Facebook and sent her the following e-mail (via facebook) on March 13th.

"Hi Teresa, we´ve never met. My name is Rob and I live in a small town in Northern Mexico. I was so saddened to see the news about Constance not being allowed to go to her high school prom. When I was a kid growing up in Arizona in the mid 1980s, being gay was pretty much forbidden. I new I was gay, but I couldn´t tell my parents or my teachers about it. My senior year in high school I had developed a crush on another boy in my school. Although he and I were never intimate with each other, we both knew that our feelings for one another were more than just being buddies. When the time came for the prom, we both dreamed about how wonderful it would be if we got to go together just like any other young couple in love. Well, promnight came and I watched as all my friends rented limos and tuxes, bought corsages, and enjoyed the evening, holding hands under a cardboard moon and dancing to romantic songs. I cried and cried that night. Why did God make me into this freak? I hated myself for being gay. The following day, I was horrified to learn that my special friend had hung himself in his room wearing a tuxedo. I hope you never have to experience that kind of pain. These young girls just want to go to the prom like any other kids their age. It´s such a simple request, but I hope you don´t underestimate how important it can be to them. I know you work hard at your job, and that you are a loving and caring parent. I hope that you will look inside your heart and see the situation from that perspective. To love another person is one of the greatest gifts given to us by God. Please don´t deny these young people the chance to share that gift with their friends on prom night. God bless you."

The following day, Facebook sent me the following message:

"Hello,

You posted an item that violated our Terms of Use, and this item has been removed. Among other things, content that is hateful, threatening, or obscene is not allowed, nor is content that attacks an individual or group. Continued misuse of Facebook's features could result in your account being disabled.

If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact us at warning@facebook.com from your login email address.

The Facebook Team"

I´ve asked Facebook to tell me specify which "post" was removed and to tell me specifically how it violated the terms of use. Their only response was an automated e-mail that said they are investigating and reminded me to read the terms of use again.
More...
Posted by BajaRob on March 20, 2010 at 11:50 AM · Report this
31
Mr. McDonald's letter definitely wasn't a threat, but Dan, honestly, do you think Mr. Hood didn't receive any threats at all from the people you sent after him?
Posted by haunted leg on March 20, 2010 at 11:54 AM · Report this
Cracker Jack 32
Poor period troll. The world is so big and scary.
Posted by Cracker Jack on March 20, 2010 at 11:57 AM · Report this
beckysharp 34
@29

Not a Canadian either. Maybe your fellow citizens can chip in to buy you a map, so you can extend your knowledge of geography to include places other than South Africa and Such-As-And-The-Iraq.

"Bigots like to divide the world into the "wrong" kind of people, and the "right" kind of people (people just like them...)"

Everyone may divide up the world this way. What people cannot do is discriminate based on this division. I don't care for you or for the junior at the Itawamba Agricultural, but I would never support your exclusion at a public event. You would be welcome to come, and I would patiently bear your panicked shrieks as you realized that all were as received and respected as you regardless of race, cultural, sexuality or political/religious opinion.
Posted by beckysharp on March 20, 2010 at 12:05 PM · Report this
Dingo 35
By not having a prom the board is treating everyone equally. Everyone is equally free not to come.

The board might have been able to make that claim if they had never organized a prom in the first place and then cancelled it when they found out that a female student wanted to attend with a female date and wearing a tuxedo. But since that's exactly what they did do, they have no basis on which to make that claim and they are violating McMillen's First Amendment rights. I'm not sure what exactly you're having difficulty with; it's fairly simple.
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 12:07 PM · Report this
beckysharp 36
Period Troll has his period? That might explain the panic attacks. He should hold a hot-water bottle to his tum.

Like @1, I hope Constance can take up an offer for a better and all-inclusive prom. Maybe one day the Itawamba Agricultural junior will look back and wish he'd gone along.
Posted by beckysharp on March 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM · Report this
very bad homo 37
OK troll, we get it. You hate gay people. Yawn.
Posted by very bad homo on March 20, 2010 at 12:13 PM · Report this
MirrorMan 38
Dingo, you are right. It IS that simple! But then again, so is the troll....
Posted by MirrorMan on March 20, 2010 at 12:33 PM · Report this
39
Topela Furniture Mart's Facebook Page is here:

http://www.facebook.com/tupelofurniturem…
Posted by bluprntguy on March 20, 2010 at 12:36 PM · Report this
40
#16 Said:

The school board hasn't denied all the kids a dance. The vast majority of those kids don't want to have a prom if the terms are dictated by the [NAACP]. Those poor kids haven't yet learned the rules of the road in the [N]united States of [Negro]merica.

Poor backwards Mississippi...
Posted by bluprntguy on March 20, 2010 at 12:39 PM · Report this
Alanmt 41
Looks like the Itawumba school board is still anti-integration. Only the target has changed, the hate is still the same.

Fill in the swimming pool!

Anyone who goes to an alternate prom that excludes Constance should be ashamed of themselves. If they don't have the grace and sense to be ashamed of themselves, I am willing to bet that their children will be ashamed of them, in a couple decades.

My heart goes out, not only to Constance, but to the good people who just happen to live in Mississippi, which already has a bad reputation, and have to be tarred with the ignorance and bigotry of these people.

And I do have to respectfully disagree with James Keith, attorney to attorney. It wasn't a no-win situation. The School Board and Constance could both have won, and the community as well. All that was required was for the School District to do the right thing. Sure, the School District members couldn't both "win" and hold on to their unAmerican view that their prejudices ought to trump a student's right to equal treatment, but oh well. You know, buddy, when my client is wrong and likely to lose in Court and also suffer serious extra-legal consequences, I kinda let 'em know. It's kinda my duty. All advocate and no counselor makes for some bad client situations.

I am sure that Gretna Louisiana is celebrating that some other southern town has now taken over the "most backward hateful place in America" title.
Posted by Alanmt on March 20, 2010 at 12:42 PM · Report this
43
If your fun requires the discrimination of a group of people. It really brings into question the things you do on saturday nights. Or does the Klan meet on Sundays?
Posted by valeanora on March 20, 2010 at 1:28 PM · Report this
MirrorMan 45
"But there are rules about behaviors that have been in place even before Constance saw the light and had nothing to do with Constance's Big Coming Out! "

Would those be the rules that kept the 'Colored' boys from dancing with the white girls? Or maybe being excluded altogether? Because that sure was FUN! And real fair, too!

Face it, you're a bigot and proud of it! And I don't blame you! It's probably the only thing you've succeeded at in your life! (Unless you count being an annoying prick, of course)
Posted by MirrorMan on March 20, 2010 at 1:35 PM · Report this
Dingo 46
The rules prohibiting female students from wearing traditionally male attire and any student from taking a date of their own sex to the prom are a violation of their First Amendment rights. What are you having trouble understanding?
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 1:35 PM · Report this
MirrorMan 47
All of it, Dingo. All of it.
Posted by MirrorMan on March 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM · Report this
Jessica 48
Wow, prom at a furniture mart. What a magical night to get knocked up in the back of your boyfriend's pickup while buzzed on contraband Natty Ice.
Posted by Jessica on March 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM · Report this
52
I remember when I went to my prom, I was having a lot of fun until some girl showed up....holding hands with ANOTHER girl! Why, don't they know that's against the rules!?

And then they started dancing together! SLOW dancing! Unfortunately, the evil Liberal Homo Agenda had found itself to my school board (in Texas, no less!) and they had actually allowed this filth! Even though they appeared to just want to dance and have fun like everyone else, I and I alone knew that they were personally there to rub their big homo coming-out party in my face.

I mean, what do they think this is, the twenty-first century? Should we really let gays touch each other and hold hands and even dance together, in sight of the straight people? Should they even be allowed into the same rooms as us? Aren't there some completely arbitrary and draconian rules that were put in place around the same time that coloreds were kept separate from whites and left-handed kids were considered unnatural that we could call up to stop this kind of jackbooted gay invasion of prom?

I'm glad period guy understands it. He seems to be the only one.
Posted by hadakang on March 20, 2010 at 2:18 PM · Report this
Dingo 53
50: if you're having trouble with such a very simple concept and with the relevance to this issue of the First Amendment, then you need more help than can be offered to you here and I suggest you seek it elsewhere.
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 2:21 PM · Report this
beckysharp 54
LOL hadakang, that was awesome. Maybe you can recommend an ophthalmologist to reconstruct the nerves in Period Troll's eyes when they are burnt out by the sight of someone breaking The Inalterable Rules Of Dancing (which have been fixed and unchanged since the beginning of time, and are exactly the same in every culture).

I don't know of any medical procedure which would repair the injury to his delicate sensibilities.
Posted by beckysharp on March 20, 2010 at 2:36 PM · Report this
Frau Blucher 56
I see the anonymous troll was able to remove his head from his ass long enough to grab a couple of breaths of fresh air, vomit up a couple of moronic responses on SLOG then quickly replant his head firmly up his ass again.

Good show.
Posted by Frau Blucher on March 20, 2010 at 2:49 PM · Report this
Frau Blucher 58
To the douche bag troll spewing garbage about rules of behavior, it is my understanding that those "rules" of women not wearing male attire and taking a date of the opposite sex came about AFTER Constance approached them about attending the prom.

They weren't in place BEFORE the issue, you dumbass.
Posted by Frau Blucher on March 20, 2010 at 3:02 PM · Report this
Frau Blucher 59
Cry me a fucking river, 57.
Posted by Frau Blucher on March 20, 2010 at 3:03 PM · Report this
Cory 60
Since there's a private prom for the bigots, it'd probably be tempting to have a 'private' prom for the tolerant kids at the school... I'd be willing to wager that Constance's party be a lot better, and as a result, a good portion of kids would move from one space to another over the course of the night.

But I guess if it takes good amenities to make people open their minds to partying with gays, just go with it.
Posted by Cory on March 20, 2010 at 3:29 PM · Report this
Dingo 61
Best comments on the Tupelo Furniture Market Facebook page:

"Public Relations Disaster," n., hosting a "no gays allowed" segregated prom to try get a schoolboad off the hook for discriminating against their gay students it what's become a national embarrassment.

Enjoy your newfound fame...

How disgusting and yet how telling that your business is supporting segregation....
...and it's going to be viral information ALL over the internet......
SHAME ON YOU for being bigots.

Thank you for making contacting you by telephone and e-mail so gosh darned easy and convenient!

Only love will conquer hatred , All of Mexico is watching
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 3:42 PM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 62
Dingo, your comments (and the comments of others) on this as a First Amendment issue reminded me of something I was sent several years ago when sanctioned prayer in school was being debated. It went something like, "We teachers aren't just expected to teach. We also have to be counselors, social workers, chaperones, etc. We have to do all this and you tell us we CAN'T PRAY?"

What the author missed is that no one was being prevented from praying. The issue was that school-sponsored prayer is inappropriate.

Ms. McMillen isn't asking other students to dance with same-sex partners themselves. She's not even asking them accept her as she is. In other words she's not telling anyone else they can't pray. She simply asked if she could bring who she wants and wear what she wants to the prom. If that's "disruptive", as the school administrators claim, that would seem to be the problem of the administrators and some of the students--not Ms. McMillen's.
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 20, 2010 at 4:01 PM · Report this
venomlash 63
Wow, ten-to-one odds that Period Troll also hates the sp**s, the n****rs, the ki**s, and the g**ks, as well as the f*gs. I also bet that he's an uneducated Southern white man. Fucking ignorant hicks. You realize that your ranting about all the "HomoLiberal agenda" is sounding just like the kind of anti-Semitic paranoia that fed into the Holocaust?

You, sir, are a lesser creature than humanity; not by who you were born, but by who you have made yourself.
Posted by venomlash on March 20, 2010 at 4:06 PM · Report this
Dingo 64
That's exactly right, and courts have also consistently ruled that "disruption" of that nature isn't germane to arguments of First Amendment rights, in other words, fears that some people might be upset or react negatively aren't legitimate grounds to deny McMillen her right to wear what she wants and date who she wants.
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 4:11 PM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 65
Venomlash, I was going to take exception to your characterization of Period Troll as a Southern man, but then it occurred to me that, if only in this story, there is some justification for that assumption.

As I've said before, you'll find ignorance and bigotry almost everywhere, but that doesn't excuse it anywhere.
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 20, 2010 at 4:16 PM · Report this
this guy I know in Spokane 66
Of course, it's likely there will be gay students at the furniture mart prom, who are either still in the closet or still in the dark. Just something fun to think about.
Posted by this guy I know in Spokane on March 20, 2010 at 4:48 PM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 67
Spokane Guy, it is fun to think about, but while, hopefully, some of those closeted students may be inspired by her courage and the national attention she's getting, sadly some may look at the treatment closer to home and think, "That's it, I'm never coming out."
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 20, 2010 at 4:59 PM · Report this
68
Anyone know if folks are going to mount a protest at the straights-only "Night Under The Armoires" Senior prom? Picketers and such? If not they absolutely should, and I for one would try to somehow get my ass down to Mississippi to join in if they did.
Posted by BrechtianDinnerTheater http://www.facebook.com/hulford on March 20, 2010 at 5:30 PM · Report this
Aly 69
Oooo. A furniture mart. Sounds like my idea of a fun prom! I'd rather go to one that Ellen hosted >.>

This isn't going to make it go away. I don't think that they're aware of this.
Posted by Aly on March 20, 2010 at 5:34 PM · Report this
Loveschild 70
"I'm really calling for massive retaliation"

"we have to come down hard on this school"

"We're going to be in your fucking face principal Wygold and superintendent McNeece"

- dan savage's podcast

I just hope that people like ellen and dan along with their followers just have the decency to leave the kids at their new prom be and keep away from harassing them like they have done to the school board members to the point of wanting to see them out on the streets with their families.

Posted by Loveschild http://www.samaritanspurse.org/index.php/articles/responding_to_haiti_earthquake/ on March 20, 2010 at 5:42 PM · Report this
beckysharp 71
#68, I am absolutely in love with the name "Night Under The Armoires". Are there any other folks who'd like to title the straights-only prom? I would vote for anyone who could include the term "china hutch".
Posted by beckysharp on March 20, 2010 at 6:19 PM · Report this
72
Why could Constance not just show up with her girlfriend? The problem was in the asking. If she felt she had a right to be there, all she had to do was wear her suit and bring her lady. Instead, she raised a fuss and now there is a prom to which she and anyone who has ever openly associated with are not invited. Of course her classmates are excluding her at this point. They probably could not care less what she and her girlfriend do on a daily basis. They became exclusionary when their prom got cancelled.
Posted by KelsyG on March 20, 2010 at 6:23 PM · Report this
COMTE 73
The Difference Between Liberals And Conservatives:

When Liberals hold a prom all the kids get invites

When Conservatives hold a prom only the "right" kids get invites.
Posted by COMTE on March 20, 2010 at 6:26 PM · Report this
Frau Blucher 74
Comte @ 74 - you couldn't have said it any better.

Bravo.
Posted by Frau Blucher on March 20, 2010 at 6:38 PM · Report this
Frau Blucher 75
Sorry, meant Comte @ 73.
Posted by Frau Blucher on March 20, 2010 at 6:39 PM · Report this
Dingo 76
Why could Constance not just show up with her girlfriend? The problem was in the asking. If she felt she had a right to be there, all she had to do was wear her suit and bring her lady.

She's done a pretty good job of explaining this already.
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 7:03 PM · Report this
mackro 77
This thread makes me want to listen to a certain debut album by K.M.D.

"your mother likes to visit the old churches."
Posted by mackro http://mackro.blogspot.com on March 20, 2010 at 7:27 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 78
@ Venomlash, why a southerner? Don't you think Washington, even Seattle, is capable of producing someone like that? Because believe me, even in 80% liberal Seattle there are home-grown homophobes and other hard right jokers.
Posted by Matt from Denver on March 20, 2010 at 7:52 PM · Report this
82
@76

I disagree. The notice stating that only heterosexual couples could attend came out after she felt the need to ask for permission. If she and her date had just showed up to the dance, they might have gone unnoticed as I am sure her classmates were already aware that she is a lesbian and would not have been surprised to she her hugged up with another girl. It is better to ask forgiveness than permission, even if the issue is one where permission should not be needed.
Posted by KelsyG on March 20, 2010 at 9:21 PM · Report this
84
At a prom, there will be straight couples that will slow dance, hug and kiss each other. Saying that a gay couple can not slow dance, hug or kiss each other isn't equal treatment. There is a word for that discrimination.

"period" you seem to believe it's ok to be homosexual, just not to ever dare expressing it public. Well guess what, we're here and we'll be just as expressive as straight people. Don't like it, don't watch.
Posted by valeanora on March 20, 2010 at 9:27 PM · Report this
kim in portland 87
While we don't know where our dear friend "." is from, but we can thank "." for all those links of "Sweet Home Alabama". Great song, so fun to play on my Strat Man I miss her, had to leave her in Oregon, but in fairness the Martin is more soothing to listen to and I'm not playing for myself here in LA.

Take care all.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on March 20, 2010 at 9:40 PM · Report this
89
There are rules that govern behavior in society. Heterosexuals want to keep a lot of the rules the same, but have not put forth convincing reasons why it is in the best interest of society to do so.

See what I did there. :) You seem to think straight people have the right to tell gay people how they can and cannot act. Nope, you can't. You seem to think we'll abide by the rules created by bias and intolerance. No, we won't. Just like Rosa Parks won't move to the back of the bus, we will not play straight for your or anyone else's benefits.

As for the definition of marriage, it has changed. Women are no longer property, and it isn't purely an economic contract with babies attached. People can marry above or below their station as they see fit, as well as marrying those of a different race/ethnicity. Remember Romantic Love and marriage are very new concepts. Society has adapted and continued to grow.
Posted by valeanora on March 20, 2010 at 9:53 PM · Report this
kim in portland 91
Thank you! It's been a very long and rough day. That was a nice way to end it.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on March 20, 2010 at 10:18 PM · Report this
92
@90 None of those homosexuals have any credibilty. With the exception of Elton John. Those were closet cases who fought against what they were because they are self-loathing traitors. And you know what the punishment for treason is, don't you? So why would I listen to a traitor's position on anything at all? That's like taking American Revolution tactical advice from Benedict Arnold over George Washington.

Also note your phrasing: "poor public policy". I don't care what the "public" thinks. They don't influence my personal morality or behavior. Also, there is a saying from my childhood that we were taught very often. "What is popular is not always right, what is right is not always popular". Gay Marriage is a right, no matter how popular it is.

As for us girls, sorry you must be confused. I'm a man. I have a penis, and use it for gay buttsecks.
Posted by valeanora on March 20, 2010 at 10:37 PM · Report this
venomlash 94
@78: You think I don't know that? Even on the North Side of Chicagoland, there are ignorant, prejudiced people of all varieties. I guessed Southerner simply because the South (and to some degree the West) tends to have a greater proportion of them.

@79: Stepping into the crocodile pit now, aren't you?
Perhaps I should mention that your racism analogy breaks down when you consider that those uneducated people I so dislike can be black, white, brown, tan, or just about any color you can reproduce with MS Paint, and my opinion of them will be the same regardless. Being an ignorant hick is not who you are born; it is who you choose to be, and to some degree how you are raised. And if I have a problem with Southerners, it's because, while there are many rational and good-hearted people in the South (such as a certain Gentleman), the South has been a hotbed of racism, anti-Semitism, and general hatred and intolerance since before any of us were even twinkles in our fathers' eyes.
And yes, venom does suit me just fine; I like to keep my nick consistent with my attitude. The difference between me and bass-ackward morons like you and the We-Hate-Fags Ignorance Patrol is that before I pass judgement or make an attack, I think to myself: "Is this person doing something genuinely wrong, or do they just happen to offend my delicate sensibilities?" And if it's the second one, well, I man up and deal with it. And if it's the first one, well, you better duck, because I'll take you down a few kilonotches. As demonstrated here:

@90: So evidently if there are homosexuals who oppose gay marriage (the vast majority of them closeted and self-loathing), that means that gay marriage is a bad idea. Let's take this philosophy to the extreme. Suppose Hitler had been part Jewish, as some rumors have suggested. Then would the fact that he, a self-loathing part-Jew, opposed letting the Jews exist mean that we MOTs should have been exterminated?
Also, let's hear about all these "lot's [sic] of prominent homosexuals". Tell us how many gay public figures oppose gay rights. Step right on into my parlor, you gnat.
More...
Posted by venomlash on March 20, 2010 at 10:45 PM · Report this
venomlash 96
@93: Your own personal morality and behavior is only personal as long as you don't try to impose your values on others; then it becomes public. (And since you types always say "well, what about the gays imposing their values on me?": if you are upset about the tolerance of people different from you, you must have been dropped on your head as a child.)

@95: You must be watching some really weird pornos.
Posted by venomlash on March 20, 2010 at 10:57 PM · Report this
97
Fuck your own butt with that penis.

Oh we do, we only have boyfriends to parade around in public with to mess with straight people. You know now the true gay agenda. Kudos to you.
Posted by valeanora on March 20, 2010 at 11:13 PM · Report this
Dingo 98
Sigh.

The First Amendment of the Constitution states that “Congress shall make no law
. . . abridging the freedom of speech.” The school board have done precisely this by censoring McMillen’s peaceful expression of social and political viewpoints central to who she is.

The First Amendment protects expressive conduct. In Fricke v. Lynch, the court held that a male high school student’s desire to take a same-sex date to his prom contained significant protected expressive content. Similar expressions by high school students relating to their sexual orientation or support for gay rights likewise have been held to constitute speech protected by the First Amendment, and courts have upheld the rights of students to be openly gay at high school.

Wearing non-gender-conforming attire to the prom is First Amendment protected expressive activity. Courts have found that clothing amounts to protected speech because it can “symbolize ethnic heritage, religious beliefs, and political and social views,” and they have upheld students' rights to wear symbols of their beliefs.

Students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or
expression at the schoolhouse gate.” Courts have found that “School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out[side of school] are persons under our Constitution.”

In any case, the prom is an extra-curricular school function; courts have found that students' First Amendment rights extend to such functions. In Fricke v. Lynch, the court held that students have a First Amendment right to bring a same-sex date to the prom. By the way, although schools can in very narrow circumstances limit students' First Amendment rights to free expression because of legitimate concerns about significant disruption, courts have also found that this right of schools is greatly reduced at activities like proms, which are non-scholastic.

The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals has held that “even reasonably forecast disruption is not per se justification for prior restraint or subsequent punishment of expression
afforded to students by the First Amendment.”

A First Amendment violation may not be avoided by closing down a public forum. Courts have consistently found that it is in the public interest to protect First Amendment liberties.

Any questions?
More...
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 11:15 PM · Report this
Dingo 99
And by the way, Fricke v. Lynch, the case in which the court found that students have a First Amendment right to take a same-sex date to the prom, happened 30 YEARS ago in 1979. And yet students are still routinely being denied this right, and schools are routinely losing the subsequent lawsuits, which cite this case. When will people learn?
Posted by Dingo on March 20, 2010 at 11:38 PM · Report this
COMTE 100
Why is it that when a man sticks his penis in another man's anus that's some sort of abomination, but when a a man sticks his penis in a woman's anus that's just normal behavior?
Posted by COMTE on March 21, 2010 at 12:31 AM · Report this
101
Re: 93

Wait, homosexual proms are trendy, now? Dammit, I can't keep up with all the Liberal Homo Agenda mailing lists. When I went to prom it was still mostly guys and girls! The popular girls, too! There were only like six lesbians at the entire thing, and just a couple of gay dudes.

Feeling pretty cheated.
Posted by hadakang on March 21, 2010 at 1:46 AM · Report this
102
I love the weird assumption by the Mississippi guy that her going to prom with her girlfriend, one in a tuxedo and one in a dress so they could be just like every other couple, would suddenly turn the prom into a gay rights' parade. Like, the presence of gay people instantly turns any event into some sort of furthering of a gay agenda, as supposed to a teenage girl wanting to go to her prom because she's a fucking teenage girl and they love that shit.

It was dumb to ask, but it was even dumber for the school board to cancel prom because of it, basically singling her out out of spite. She doesn't exactly strike me as the brash type though, and one could argue that she didn't want to get in trouble in the first place.

The idea, or very stupid defense, that she was going to be breaking a rule, a very specifically prejudiced dress code rule, is irrelevant, and everybody fucking knows it; if actual rules mattered at a prom teenage guys wouldn't be doing shots of Jack in the men's room. No, it was because she was breaking an unwritten societal rule that looks down on gay people, specifically in the South which is about three decades behind everyone else in terms of social acceptance (and education, if you look at their terrible fucking statistics compared to every other state).

Don't worry Mississippi guy, we both know your area of the country will join the rest of the free world and drop all of its blatant outdated views on intolerance. I mean, it'll probably be in like twenty years, but eventually it will come. And that must seem absolutely AWFUL to you, I'm sure.
Posted by hadakang on March 21, 2010 at 2:00 AM · Report this
103
@ 7 Maybe Allstate can't fire him for his actions outside of work, but could they fire him for causing monetary damages? If current Allstate customers drop their coverage citing Mr. Hood's actions, then Allstate could make the claim that his actions were negatively affecting the company's operations.
Posted by PsychoLoco on March 21, 2010 at 2:07 AM · Report this
Telsa Grills 104
By the way, none of this attention over the past couple of weeks would ever have come to pass had Constance been denied to take her date to prom because she was transsexual.

At most, the controversy would have received a pithy Dan blog entry, a smattering of h0h0h0 and miad comments, and a few "strange news" newspaper footnote appearances.
Posted by Telsa Grills on March 21, 2010 at 2:11 AM · Report this
beckysharp 105
Hey, I just was given a link to this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story…

"Mississippi School Holds First Interracial Prom" is the title, dated from June 11, 2008. One quote: "Some white parents wouldn't let their kids go, and some insisted on holding a private prom for their kids." It is completely in keeping with tradition that the segregationists in this case hold their own "Enchanted China Hutch" dance without the disruption of seeing folks who do not exactly resemble themselves.

So this is progress for Mississippi, I guess. Those Inexorable, Inalterable and Eternal Rules for dances there (that we've heard so much about on this thread) must date from the Jugendfests of the 30s.
Posted by beckysharp on March 21, 2010 at 2:39 AM · Report this
106
See? Told you they're making progress.

Maybe ten years from now someone from Mississippi will be able to see two black gay guys holding hands in public without their heads exploding.
Posted by hadakang on March 21, 2010 at 3:15 AM · Report this
beckysharp 107
My respect for Constance went up a million more points after hearing that. It takes real courage to come out in a state that only acknowledged (let alone accepted) interracial proms.
Posted by beckysharp on March 21, 2010 at 3:39 AM · Report this
108
@106: or better yet, two gay guys of different races.

As Peter Lefcourt put it in his novel "The Dreyfus Affair" (set in Texas rather than Mississippi): "Faggotry and miscegenation! In broad daylight! In Neiman-Marcus!"

Incidentally, I considered re-enacting that scene with my BF (we fit the description) when they opened N-M in Bellevue, but decided getting arrested would not be a great idea.
Posted by bigmacbear on March 21, 2010 at 4:41 AM · Report this
109
OK I made it to comment 53 before becoming sick of the entire affair.
As I recall there's this nifty rule, that works rather well

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!!

Seriously, attention is their life-blood. Read over the comments, counter-points and arguments are almost entirely ignored to let fly another wave of filth. Your arguments mean nothing, neither does your scorn, your snark, your anger. All these things give trolls enormous hard-ons. Please don't collaborate in the sexual satisfaction of the troll, there are hardworking call-boys who have to put food on their tables for that.
Posted by Lynx on March 21, 2010 at 4:56 AM · Report this
Frau Blucher 110
@90 - Lots of prominent heterosexuals believe homosexual marriage is good public policy.

See how that works? Just because "you" don't want it doesn't mean many, many heterosexuals don't want it for us.
Posted by Frau Blucher on March 21, 2010 at 5:38 AM · Report this
111
I'm kind of reluctant to add this--does anybody really read the posts after the number reaches 100? But, what the heck.

For all those commenters who keep talking about a the "homosexual agenda," I feel the need to point out something that I don't think anyone else has noted.

Couple tickets or date tickets to the prom cost less than two individual tickets. But only if the two people going together consisted of one male and one female. In other words, the school board was providing a financial reward for heterosexuality.

Sounds to me like somebody was promoting a heterosexual agenda.

Posted by Clayton on March 21, 2010 at 7:49 AM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 112
Clayton, I'm still following the comments (although I've noticed that the trolls, as usual, sound like broken records). I think the fact that couples' tickets are cheaper than two single tickets has been mentioned, but you raise an interesting point, and it got me thinking.

Let's say, hypothetically, that two guys can't get dates so they decide to go together. They're not a couple, they're not planning to dance together, but they figure they'll go together and save some money. If it were a male and female student in a platonic relationship no one would question it, but if the administration did in this case they'd essentially be asking the students "What is the nature of your relationship?" This is, at the very least, unnecessarily invasive.
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 21, 2010 at 8:26 AM · Report this
113
Thanks for your response at 112, Southern Gentleman (btw: I'm from the South, too).

You're right--the policy as applied to two straight boys who are trying to save money creates a situation in which they are subjected to invasive questions.

And this makes the social agenda that much clearer: the policy of selling couples tickets for less than two individual tickets discrminates both against gay kids and against straight kids who don't have "real" dates. In essence, the school board is saying "We believe that all kids should be straight and in a romantic relationship. If this is not you, or if you're not willing/able to fake it for the night, we're going to penalize you financially."

Here's a crazy thought: have one price for an individual ticket, and let the students decide by themselves whether they will go with a date of the opposite sex, a date of the same sex, a friend of the opposite sex, or a friend of the same sex.

That system seems to work perfectly well at movies, plays and concerts. And, really, the school board and the school administration have more important things to worry about than who is dating whom.
Posted by Clayton on March 21, 2010 at 9:39 AM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 114
Clayton, it's nice to know I'm not the only one here representing the more tolerant side of the South.

Your idea of individual tickets sounds reasonable, but, if I understand it correctly, it would require some changing of the way prom tickets are sold. When I was in high school only juniors and seniors were allowed to buy tickets because, technically, it was a junior and senior event. However they were allowed to bring a date--so the date might be a freshman or sophomore or, for that matter, someone from another school. Proms are private events so not just anyone can buy a ticket, unlike movies, plays, or concerts.

You hit it on the head, though, when you say the administrators "have more important things to worry about than who is dating whom." Restricting ticket sales to just individual students may not be the solution, but not worrying about who's dating whom should be a relief for school administrators who, we're always told, are overworked and underpaid.
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM · Report this
115
Period Troll says: "And quite frankly someone ... who throws a hissy fit when they see someone who isn't a carbon copy of themselves isn't very well equipped to function as as an adult amongst the rest of us."

I agree. Period Troll and the Itawamba School Board aren't very well-equipped to function as adults among the rest of us. Not at all.
Posted by PatrickB on March 21, 2010 at 12:14 PM · Report this
119
oh yeah,
there's a heterosexual agenda-
it's called 'keeping the species alive'.

Oh thank you for saving our species. With only 7 billion of us, we're really in danger from abortion and homosexuals (~10% of the population). I can't wait for you to end all wars, end world hunger, and spread socialized medicine to all, not just in this country but in all countries. We HAVE to do all we can to keep the species alive, as we are so very close to extinction.
Posted by valeanora on March 21, 2010 at 1:30 PM · Report this
samktg 120
@ . , I assume you base your position on the Bible. If that is the case, then, if there is a god, let god sort out the 'righteous' from the 'wicked'. The Bible is filled with contradictions, and it is impossible to follow it to the letter, and there is no way you can know divine will, human.

Tolerance, simple, effortless tolerance of other ways of life that don't fit inside your box of Right and Moral has no negative effect on society. If you don't want your kids to know about homosexuality, fine, don't teach them. If you feel abortions are wrong, fine, never get one. If you don't want to marry someone of the same gender, don't. But don't push your views on me, my neighbors, or the kids around the block. It's a free country, and everyone is entitled to equal treatment under the law. I challenge you to find a single way in which extending equal rights to all humans will have negative consequences on society, but please, tangible specifics, divine will is far too slippery even for you to understand.

Come on, intolerance of intolerance is the only acceptable form of intolerance.
Posted by samktg on March 21, 2010 at 1:40 PM · Report this
samktg 122
@120, Then what do you base your position on? There is no apparent reason to believe what you believe without some sort of divine mandate.

Frankly, I'm glad you are taking religion out of the picture, it makes it possible for people who are not dogmatic to talk to you. So, then, what is wrong with homosexuality? What is wrong with a girl taking a girl to the prom in a tuxedo? What is wrong with two men marrying? How do these things affect anyone anymore than a white woman dating or marrying a black man? It wasn't all that long ago that that was illegal, and as vehemently opposed as gay marriage is now.

Now then, was it really necessary to call me an ass? My assumption really wasn't that far-fetched and my questions are sincere. Many of the people who hold these views are religious dogmatists. No matter. Also, the saying more often is to assume makes an ass of me AND you.
Posted by samktg on March 21, 2010 at 4:02 PM · Report this
samktg 123
Erm, @121
Posted by samktg on March 21, 2010 at 4:09 PM · Report this
samktg 125
@124, Thank you for taking a break from your regular snarking, but I think you have overstuffed the meter of your typical verse. I digress.

1) No one is disputing that family isn't good, and shouldn't be societally promoted, just that the heteronormative family is necessarily good, and that all other families are bad. Your right that cheating can really screw up a family, but if a couple is able to agree on an open relationship, and that is what it takes to keep the family together, isn't that a good thing?

2) Abstinence only education has been proven to be ineffective. Youths still end up having sex, but don't know how to do so safely, which results in unwanted pregnancies and spreads disease. We need to educate teens as much as possible so that they can be safe, and abstinence is only a fraction of that education.

3) Pre-marital sex happens, a lot, probably more than marital sex. It has always happened and always will. If people engage in safer sex, what's the harm? Right, abortions, the nuclear option of birth control. Without the right to choose, women end up dead in botched back-alley abortions and are dehumanized, made less than equivalent to men, and that is wrong. Anyway, pre-marital sex is extremely important to family, because it helps people to determine if they are sexually compatible, and nobody wants to commit the rest of their lives to bad sex. That leads to cheating, which erodes the fabric of family.

4) And what of homosexuality? Biologically it works. It isn't a human construct. We see it in hundreds of other species, numerous species of mammals, birds, lizards, and even insects engage in homosexual behaviors. It's true that two gay men cannot themselves create a child, but this does not disqualify them from raising a child. There is no reason why a gay couple would not be able to provide as stable a home environment for a child as a straight couple. As far as homosexuality in general goes, beyond the marriage equality issue, what is wrong with a pair of women attending prom as a couple, one in a tuxedo (no risk even of pregnancy if they have sex later that night)? Cultures the world over have been far more accepting of more fluid definitions of sexuality than our own (third genders, gay leaders and religious figures), and even our own has been more flexible than you allow (we could go back to the Ancient Greeks, or just a hundred or so years ago to blood-brotherhood). What tangible effect does simply tolerating gays have on anything? In what tangible ways does giving the LGBT community the same rights as enjoyed by everyone else harm anything? Without your flawed biology, how can you back your position?
More...
Posted by samktg on March 21, 2010 at 8:02 PM · Report this
samktg 126
@ . , It is quite obvious you are a group of people, the few people that still refer to themselves with the royal we are royalty or insane. Are you affiliated with any particular organization? Or are you just a group of friends that meet every day in someone's basement?
Posted by samktg on March 21, 2010 at 8:06 PM · Report this
beckysharp 129
samktg, . has been trying to construct an argument throughout this thread but it contains a major contradiction. He wants to believe that homosexuality is a learned behaviour (he thinks it can be taught to others) but at the same time claims some behaviours as inherent in all homosexuals, which implies a biological imperative.

"Biologically it is a nonstarter." Inability or unwillingness to reproduce doesn't rid the human species of a gene. Google 'Harlequin type ichthyosis' or 'Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome'. Individuals with these genes do not reproduce (harlequin babies almost never live to grow up) but those biological conditions are still present, regardless of their affect on the reproductive chances of the individual or society.

"If there is any biological component to homosexual desire it must be seen as an aberration and deviance from normal. Like genetic predisposition to diabetes." Unless . goes about taking family histories and running DNA tests on everyone he meets, and then makes strict laws prohibiting the sale of sugary foodstuffs to all potential diabetics, there's not much he can do to seriously prevent that deviant trait manifesting itself in the general public. He can't even prevent the abberant gene replicating itself, unless we forcible sterilize all carriers.

As you have noticed, he also makes sweeping generaliztions without citing any evidence to support his statements. He has stated that the most effective way to raise children is in a nuclear family with heterosexual parents: no sources from peer-reviewed journals or studies in the relevant areas of psychology, sociology, anthropology or history are given to support his statement. He's very keen to make what he understands to be "scientific" claims (rather than argue from a religious perspective), but doesn't comprehend that science is testable and repeatable.
More...
Posted by beckysharp on March 21, 2010 at 9:46 PM · Report this
130
uhhh, period fellow, SOMEONE has never read about how they set up the citystate of sparta. families are not a bad way to set up a society, but there are other options, and they totally work out fine. use your annoying brain and read some books. we as humans have had a number of other systems for raising babies and structuring societies... we're just kind of stuck with this judeo-christian bullshit at this moment.

and seriously, NEVER use the word "best" without being able to back that shit up with SCIENCE or platonic forms of virtue. i mean, have links to some sort of serious data. because you're just making some sort of weird bullshit assumption without any control group. basically all you're saying about how society and biology are "supposed" to be are the things you think you learned in 7th grade. FAIL, asshole. get a good liberal arts degree and try again.
Posted by manitestdestiny on March 21, 2010 at 10:56 PM · Report this
beckysharp 132
"You do realize that Spartan society
depended on slavery, don't you?"

Non sequitor.

"You're not from NAMBLA,
are you?"

Ad hominem attack.

This is better than a pub quiz!
Posted by beckysharp on March 22, 2010 at 4:25 AM · Report this
133
@125 - the word "heteronormative" always gets me hot. Thank you.
Posted by Ivan on March 22, 2010 at 4:36 AM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 134
Animals engaging in homosexual behavior is not the same as being homosexual and homosexual behavior in animals does not demonstrate that there is any such thing as homosexuality as an innate state of being.


I'm not sure I understand what is "an innate state of being" and what differentiates it from other supposedly learned behaviors. This sounds suspiciously like the "humans are superior to animals" argument, which overlooks the fact that humans are animals. It also overlooks the fact that some behaviors animals engage in which we consider abhorrent, such as cannibalism, occur only under duress. And humans have, under duress, practiced cannibalism. I'm not advocating it, but simply pointing out that circumstances affect behavior. Really, though, is cannibalism in any way comparable to homosexuality?

Did Sparta have homosexual marriage?


Becky Sharp already pointed out that that's a non sequitur, but I'm really unclear as to what your argument is. Are you suggesting that, when we look to ancient cultures, we should only either emulate all of what they practiced or none of it?
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 22, 2010 at 5:25 AM · Report this
samktg 135
Well so much for trying to engage the Period Hive Mind in a reasonable fashion. Maybe that got somewhere.
Posted by samktg on March 22, 2010 at 6:53 AM · Report this
samktg 138
@ Period Hive Mind, you told me you did not base your arguments on religion, so why did you say: @127 "The ancient Greeks were very accepting of homosexual behavior. There was no Christianity to disapprove." Without religion, you have nothing to back your arguments. Your biological arguments hold no water. It's all moral posturing. And for the last 800 or so years, where has Christianity's denouncement of blood brotherhood, bury-us-in-the-same-grave-facing-each-other blood brotherhood been?

Additionally, your repeated comparison of homosexuality to diabetes is offensive. Being gay is no more a disease than being double jointed.
Posted by samktg on March 22, 2010 at 7:20 AM · Report this
140
The ancient greeks accepted Homosexual behavior, not homosexual love as we know it today. Their societies social norms are no more important to us today, than those of ancient china, Victorian england or 1950s America. None of those models will ever work again, they are dead and gone. And as much as you claim that us gays destroy society, you have no evidence. Numerous countries have gay marriages and/or civil unions today, and surprise surprise their countries haven't exploded.

Gay couples actually provide a vital role for society. Straight couples generally prefer to have their own children, rather than adopt. Gay couples, can reproduce via SCIENCE!, but often choose to take care of children that have been abandoned by their straight parents. Tell me again how that destroys society to have a group of citizens ready and waiting to bear the burden of caring for unwanted children? And keep in mind orphans have been around for a very long time, even when sex out of marriage was a major taboo.
Posted by valeanora on March 22, 2010 at 7:47 AM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 141
Period Hive, your arguments seem to be all over the place, but since you've chosen to claim that homosexuality is supposedly a result of duress, perhaps you could explain what duress human beings are under that results in homosexuality. Also, it's been noted that homosexual behavior is found in bonobos, even when they aren't under any stress or duress. It appears to be an aspect of their social relationships.

It is possible to accept homosexuality without finding any social benefit to homosexual marriage.


So are you saying, then, that you accept homosexuality? I fail to see how this is an argument against same-sex marriage, though, since you haven't demonstrated that same-sex marriage wouldn't have benefits. Nor have you demonstrated that it would do any harm.

Dan equates opposition to homosexual marriage with hate, bigotry and homophobia.
By his reconing the homosexual ancient Greeks were homophobic hatefilled bigots.


You do realize, I assume, that the ancient Greeks--and, in fact, most societies--treated marriage as an exchange or sharing of property. The modern definition of marriage has, for many, shifted so that it's defined by love rather than simply property. If we accept that marriage is defined by love, and if two people of the same sex love each other and are willing to make a lifelong commitment to share their lives, why should they be denied the benefits of marriage?

Since you claim your argument isn't based on religion, though, perhaps you'll consider the argument that, since we have a (supposedly) secular government, maybe government should get out of the marriage business altogether.
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 22, 2010 at 7:52 AM · Report this
samktg 143
@ 142, Didn't you just get through saying that letting gays raise children teaches them that homosexuality is okay? Your undermining your position. I suppose contradictions like this are the result of how unwieldy a hive mind can be.

Also @128, what is "Legion"?
Posted by samktg on March 22, 2010 at 8:28 AM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 145
@144 And yet you can ignore arguments that undermine your position. Interesting.
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 22, 2010 at 10:18 AM · Report this
samktg 146
@ Period Hive, could you please compose us one of those lovely poems you are so fond of, and at least tell us what 'Legion' is. It would be nice to know what organizations you are connected to.
Posted by samktg on March 22, 2010 at 10:20 AM · Report this
Southern Gentleman 147
We may have lost Period Hive. Maybe the call of whatever the activities are that come with being part of Legion was just too tempting.
Posted by Southern Gentleman http://just-write.contentquake.com on March 22, 2010 at 11:47 AM · Report this
samktg 148
I did a little digging on the 'We are Legion' thing. It's a 4chan meme. Naturally a collective as self-righteous and bigoted as the Period Hive would have at least one 4channer in its midst.
Posted by samktg on March 22, 2010 at 12:21 PM · Report this
povertylaw 149
@103

Allstate can fire any of their employees whenever they want, unless they belong to a union. Non-unionized employees are either employed at will or by fixed-term contract. If it's the former, the employment relationship can be terminated at any point for any reason so long as the employer gives the employee appropriate notice or pay in lieu of that notice.
Posted by povertylaw on March 22, 2010 at 2:26 PM · Report this
beckysharp 150
Yawn.

Period Troll still has no sources, still can't figure out where I'm from even though my namesake spells it out pretty clearly (knows as much about literature as any other subject, apparently) and has moved from posting random logical fallacies to stalling tactics/ claiming ignorance.
Posted by beckysharp on March 22, 2010 at 2:31 PM · Report this
Frau Blucher 151
I think what Period Troll means by "legion" is that he feels that are "many" that feel as he does.

What he doesn't realize is that we know there are NOT "many" that feel the way he does, and his minions are dwindling on a daily basis.

I've already pick up on the tone of his comments, and they are one of desperation. He knows his side is losing, so he's grasping for whatever bullshit he can to save his sinking ass.
Posted by Frau Blucher on March 22, 2010 at 3:31 PM · Report this
152
Just a little personal story to share here.

I was going to college in Wisconson in 2006, when there was a proposition on the ballot to define marriage as between a man and a woman. While the measure unfortunately passed, my campus was quite liberal so the prevailing attitudes went strongly the other way. (The town was mixed, as far as I could tell.)

One of the local churches hosted a forum on the issue. Three of the four speakers were pro same sex marriage (ie against the bill); there was to be a fourth against it but he backed out or couldn't make it, so someone in the audience offered to take his place.

Now, the vast majority of the audience was very strongly against the amendment/ for gay rights. So, it must have taken some guts for the guy to get up, when he wasn't even prepared for it, and stand up in front of a bunch of people who disagreed with him. And I think most of us respected that. Sure, he got some hardball questions at the end. But there was still an overall attitude of respect. And I think he deserved it.

Posting anonymously on an internet forum -- even one associated with a strongly pro-gay-rights blog -- isn't really in the same category. But if you're going to try to take your arguements into "enemy turf", so to speak, shouldn't they at least be good ones? Instead of this "you'll lose your job if you don't agree with the gay agenda" BS?
Posted by wellwhynot on March 22, 2010 at 10:38 PM · Report this
kim in portland 153
@ Samktg,

I only have a few minutes, but legion means many. The statement "we are legion" can also be found in the Gospels of the NT of the Bible, Mark chapter 5 (verse 9?). I'm in route to the mortuary, so I can't confirm it for you. Perhaps, dear "." has wit mixed with the response at 128? Regardless, dear "." does not want any assumptions made... Only total acceptance of the opinion s/he present as fact is wanted.

Take care.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on March 23, 2010 at 8:33 AM · Report this
razorclammer 154
The concept that homosexuality, birth control and abortion are all bad because they spell destruction of the human race via a lack of reproduction is total BS. Here's why: A little figure called fertility rate. Women all over the globe, no matter their race or economic situation, have children- plenty of them. Even women who have abortions often go on to have (more) kids.

How is it that the trifecta of anti-reproduction is ineffective in its efforts to kill off the human race? Because none of them render a womb sterile. After an abortion, during the process of being a lesbian (yes lesbians have babies!), and the next time birth control isn't part of sex, those eggs are still there, ready and willing. The total global fertility rate (number of babies a woman has in her lifetime) is currently 2.59.
Posted by razorclammer on March 23, 2010 at 10:50 AM · Report this
samktg 155
@Kim, Thank you, that is clarifying. You were spot on with the verse number as well. Anyway, if that is what the Period Hive is referencing, it is further confirmation that they base their arguments on hypocritical religious grounds, as opposed to anything else (where are their citations for their flimsy biology?). This again undermines them seeing as they declared they were setting religion aside.

I do think, however, that it is a reference to the 4chan meme, which is rather hypocritical of them as well, and fits with their constant sarcasm.

On a different note, Kim, I know things have been very hard for you and your kith and kin lately; I wish you well.
Posted by samktg on March 23, 2010 at 11:25 AM · Report this
156
Hey "Period" troll, the people who don't think Constance should be there are hateful, bigoted hicks, and I'm fully ok with them not being allowed to celebrate that fact while her civil rights are violated.

Sorry, your bronze-age superstitions shouldn't be allowed to be used as a source of descrimination against other citizens of the United States of America.
Posted by Tony28 on March 23, 2010 at 1:38 PM · Report this
kim in portland 159
Thanks for the grade of "C", ".". That is an accurate grade for me, as I'm average in every way. Nothing special, in intelligence, education, or looks. Most definately not a saint either.

I have a wake to attend, and I plan on shrinking the number of working brain and liver cells with a 50 year old bottle single malt Scotch.

Cheers.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on March 23, 2010 at 5:49 PM · Report this
venomlash 160
@158: "Lots of bodies that are going to drop out of high school and collect unemployment are a drain on society, greater numbers become a hinderance.
The falling quality of America's families translates into a much diminished quality of human capital being produced."

Please to scuse: you just demonstrated the kind of point that we here on SLOG like to make.
See, unwanted children (especially in poor neighborhoods) are the ones who are most likely to drop out of school, become jobless, or otherwise be an albatross around the necks of friends, family, and community. How do we prevent this? Help everyone (not just the affluent) obtain access to birth control and, as a last-ditch measure, abortion. This stops families from having children they can't afford to raise properly.
Allowing homosexuals to marry and adopt will also help this situation. Gays and lesbians can serve as a safety valve for unwanted children by adopting those whose biological parents for whatever reason cannot raise them. And with the economic and societal benefits of marriage granted to them, more committed and stable gay couples will be able to afford to start a family. See? Thank you for pointing this out, Period Hive.

Kiss the baby.
Posted by venomlash on March 23, 2010 at 6:01 PM · Report this
162
Jesus Fucking Christ, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

What part of that do folks not understand? He/she/it is here JUST TO FUCK WITH Y'ALL.

And cause a lot of wasted time.

Oh, what the hell. Go for it.



Posted by brandX on March 23, 2010 at 6:49 PM · Report this
samktg 163
@158 & 160, Unwieldy hive mind in action.

And Period Hive, if you haven't checked out 4chan, I suggest you do, I understand it's your sort of place.
Posted by samktg on March 23, 2010 at 6:52 PM · Report this
samktg 166
One fine day in march a few Sloggers with far too much excess time stepped into the intertubes, only to be confronted by the incessant thrumming, buzzing, and stridulation of The Period Hive. It was not clear what hive mind was attempting to communicate, seeing as its metallic chittering was filled with contradictory notes and tintinnabulation, but it was clear that the chatter carried an envenomed intent, filled with hate. The arhythmic cacophony almost seemed to indicate a belief that, if one did not fit into its dogmatically limited conception of gender roles, one was a second class citizen, nay, subhuman. The noise even seemed to indicate beliefs that women were subhuman as well, and that if one was of the wrong color, even, one wore the mantle of subhumanity.

The whirring howl emitted by The Period Hive, however, did serve some purpose. Sloggers were given the opportunity to taxonomize. As much taxonomy has already occurred over the years, it never hurts to collect more data. Sun Tzu would be proud. More importantly, the mindless Period Hive conveniently offered itself up as a great whetstone for Sloggers' rhetorical knives.


Anyone care for a spot of tea?
Posted by samktg on March 23, 2010 at 7:39 PM · Report this
valoriez 167
She's planning to attend both the private prom and the alternative:

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/court-ru…

Let's not get hysterical over mistaken details, OK?
Posted by valoriez http://valorie.zimmerman.googlepages.com on March 23, 2010 at 10:52 PM · Report this
venomlash 168
@163: Yes, 4chan, the asshole of the Internet.
@166: Jasmine tea with just a drop of honey, please. You'll have to pardon me a moment, though, I think I hear that china pony rifling through my laundry.
Posted by venomlash on March 24, 2010 at 8:27 AM · Report this
samktg 169
@168, Well let me put the kettle on, and I'll get some crumpets, or perhaps you would prefer some deep dish pizza?
Posted by samktg on March 24, 2010 at 10:02 AM · Report this
kim in portland 170
@Samktg,

Thank you. Could I trouble you for a cup of tea, too?
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on March 24, 2010 at 11:55 AM · Report this
samktg 171
@Kim, No trouble at all; honey, sugar, milk?
Posted by samktg on March 24, 2010 at 12:23 PM · Report this
kim in portland 172
@Samktg,

Honey please.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on March 24, 2010 at 2:39 PM · Report this
samktg 173
*Returns with tea service* @Kim, Here you are, and have a pastry as well, it's whatever kind you enjoy the most.

@Venomlash, And here is your jasmine tea with just a drop of honey, as well as a slice of deep dish pizza.

This feels so civilized when compared with some of the other tea parties I've heard so much about lately. *Sips tea* Perfectly absurd, *picks up crustless cucumber sandwich*, but civilized.
Posted by samktg on March 24, 2010 at 5:25 PM · Report this

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