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News & ArtsFriday, March 19, 2010
Crime Civility Bill Distracts From Real Solutions
Posted by Dominic Holden on Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 1:03 PM
The most striking disappointment about Tim Burgess's proposed civility law—adding a $50 fine for aggressive solicitation to an existing criminal statute for aggressive begging—is the waste of time it creates for the city government that could be spent making streets safer. City council staff and city attorneys have already spent at least a month drafting the bill, revising the bill, internally debating the bill, and then publicly debating the bill at a lengthy hearing this week. Amendments, debates, hearings, and meetings will drag for at least another month. Maybe more.
Is this really what people want the city working on? Does this solve the problem of uncomfortable downtown streets?
By Burgess's own admission, he doesn't expect this law to be enforced. He cites the city's aggressive begging law that's used, on average, 10 times a year, and an anti-solicitation bill in Tacoma that hasn't been used since it passed in 2007. "It is very rarely used," says Burgess. Why are they enforced so rarely? Either the laws don't apply to the problems—i.e., those people who are annoying when they ask for money aren't actually breaking any laws—or the laws act as a deterrent. This is the crux of the debate.
The real solution to making people feel* safe downtown—popular among cops, Burgess, and opponents of the civility bill—is more police on the street, more foot patrols, and more health and human services. Achieving those goals is challenging, considering the city's budget is running a massive deficit.
To say nothing of wasting resources on the bill's protracted development, this is a huge distraction from economic development that would actually raise enough money to pay more police, provide more services, and do all that stuff that addresses those safety issues—both real and perceived.
Instead of debating what appears to be a redundant, do-nothing bill, the city council could be focusing on bringing new businesses downtown. For example, the city has millions of square feet of empty office space in the central business district. If the city council were spending thousands of collective hours on filling those offices—and thereby filling some of the empty nearby condos, downtown restaurants, businesses, etc.—the city would generate stacks of more tax revenue. What does it take to woo a couple a large corporations with thousands of employees to Seattle (like Russel Investments that recently moved from Tacoma)? The council should spend its time figuring that out. (It's doubtful that a company's decisions are hinging on this civility law, particularly considering our downtown is already pretty clean.) Our council's brainpower and time is limited; they should invest it in strategies that generate revenue for increased police patrols, more police, human services and other strategies that everyone can agree would actually make streets afer.
* "How someone feels about whether they are is safe is a reality and a perception of what you have heard about an area," says civility-bill advocate George Allen, the senior vice president of government relations for the Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce. His group has long advocated such a bill, and so has the downtown Seattle Association. The bill is an example of Burgess, who is expected to run for mayor in 2013, lining up support from the the moneyed interests who lost to Mike McGinn in the last election.
1
Yeah, but real solutions cost money and tough-on-crime posturing is free. Of course politicians are going to come down in favor of do-nothing legislation that makes them look like they're doing something while steadfastly avoiding any discussion of how to pay for things.
Those titans of industry that support punitive measures against the homeless like this one are allergic to paying for anything.
Those titans of industry that support punitive measures against the homeless like this one are allergic to paying for anything.
2
I generally agree. Tim Burgess and his compadres would benefit from some more Jane Jacobs.
This is not an enforcement problem. It's a systemic problem. Let's not try to fix it by criminalizing urban poverty.
This is not an enforcement problem. It's a systemic problem. Let's not try to fix it by criminalizing urban poverty.
3
Blacks committed 14 of the 28 murders in Seattle in 2008 and twelve of the 21 murders in Seattle in 2009. The problem in Seattle is violent blacks, not begging bums.
5
That is because you are an absolutely retarded shithead on psychiactric meds and your naive worldview has no factual basis in reality, Will
6
Don't you see it, Will? We're under siege! The daily bodycount is in the dozens as black people savagely murder white people in broad daylight.
They take our women, our schools, our culture. We need to fight back! But I don't want to get dirty, so I've fashioned this fabulous sanitary white robe and head covering for my own protection.
They take our women, our schools, our culture. We need to fight back! But I don't want to get dirty, so I've fashioned this fabulous sanitary white robe and head covering for my own protection.
7
A lesson in economic development for Downtown from Professor Holden and The Stranger. Now that is rich.
What's richer is that everyone knows that if the city did actually put together aggressive incentives to woo the companies Dominic says are important to generating new tax revenue for the foot patrols he claims to support - The Stranger and Dominic would be the first out of the gates to criticize the "corporate handout!"
What's richer is that everyone knows that if the city did actually put together aggressive incentives to woo the companies Dominic says are important to generating new tax revenue for the foot patrols he claims to support - The Stranger and Dominic would be the first out of the gates to criticize the "corporate handout!"
8
BC: your lame attempt at "humor" is completely impotent in its power to make the facts go away. The facts are that blacks committed 14 of the 28 murders in Seattle in 2008 and twelve of the 21 murders in Seattle in 2009. Most of the victims were also black, which explains why you desperately try to downplay the importance of these facts, since you are just another racist Seattle liberal progressive. Also, blacks ARE killing whites in broad daylight or maybe you missed the murders of James Paroline and the Tuba Man along with the 4 white cops murdered by Maurice Clemmons. The problem in Seattle is violent blacks, not begging bums.
9
BC: your lame attempt at "humor" is completely impotent in its power to make the facts go away. The facts are that blacks committed 14 of the 28 murders in Seattle in 2008 and twelve of the 21 murders in Seattle in 2009. Most of the victims were also black, which explains why you desperately try to downplay the importance of these facts, since you are just another racist Seattle liberal progressive. The problem in Seattle is violent blacks, not begging bums.
10
BC: your lame attempt at "humor" is completely impotent in its power to make the facts go away. The facts are that blacks committed 14 of the 28 murders in Seattle in 2008 and twelve of the 21 murders in Seattle in 2009. Most of the victims were also black, which explains why you desperately try to downplay the importance of these facts, since you are just another racist Seattle liberal progressive. The problem in Seattle is violent blacks, not begging bums.
12
Wait.
It's the bill's fault that so much time was wasted debating this? No fucking way. It's Seattle's fault that so much hot air was expended on such a trivial little thing as a law for a $50 ticket for soliciting people at a machine. That's just how freaking Seattle IS.
Nobody can fix that. If you can't deal with debating every stupid little law to death like its the god damn Philadelphia Convention of 1787, the only thing you can do is move far, far away from Seattle.
You could use this argument to attack every single proposal of any kind in this city. Is it not true that the Great Seal of Seattle has inscribed on it a pair of golden wringing hands? Fact. The official Seattle motto is "But then again..." Look it up.
There is no such thing as a proposal in Seattle that doesn't involve a massive waste of time debating the thing. Nice try, Dominic. Got anything else?
It's the bill's fault that so much time was wasted debating this? No fucking way. It's Seattle's fault that so much hot air was expended on such a trivial little thing as a law for a $50 ticket for soliciting people at a machine. That's just how freaking Seattle IS.
Nobody can fix that. If you can't deal with debating every stupid little law to death like its the god damn Philadelphia Convention of 1787, the only thing you can do is move far, far away from Seattle.
You could use this argument to attack every single proposal of any kind in this city. Is it not true that the Great Seal of Seattle has inscribed on it a pair of golden wringing hands? Fact. The official Seattle motto is "But then again..." Look it up.
There is no such thing as a proposal in Seattle that doesn't involve a massive waste of time debating the thing. Nice try, Dominic. Got anything else?
13
@1 - tough on crime posturing only appears free. We've paid plenty of salary hours for legislators to drum this up. At least the $50 fees will pay it all back, like panhandling tollbooths! Oh wait, even Tim Burgess expects that this law will not be enforced. What a great use of a $100k a year job, Mr Burgess.
14
@7,@8,@9,@10: Surely if this were as big a problem as you're suggesting, there'd be far smarter advocates out there than you, right? Pressing issues usually bring out more articulate representatives than someone who has to post the same message multiple times to issue a "correction" -- quotation marks necessary to prevent any association between your clumsy social observations and the word "correct".
All the same, I'm glad to see you've dropped this tired dreck about "omg, nobody cares about black people" and showed your actual concerns and how they rest on protecting a single white person in a sea of billions of other people. Brings us a lot closer to a better frame of reference for your shrill bleating.
All the same, I'm glad to see you've dropped this tired dreck about "omg, nobody cares about black people" and showed your actual concerns and how they rest on protecting a single white person in a sea of billions of other people. Brings us a lot closer to a better frame of reference for your shrill bleating.
15
Is it bad to try and prevent begging agressively and at ATMs and parking meters? This is not about being passive it's about the beggers no longer take no for an answer and having to get in constant shouting match to keep someone from shadowing you and pelting you with insults that only border on being direct threats and illegal. Funny that people from much bigger and poorer cities complain about our beggers.
Put this up for popular vote and it passes by a mile but we don't put human rights up for a popular vote, right?
You are all very wrong on this issue.
Put this up for popular vote and it passes by a mile but we don't put human rights up for a popular vote, right?
You are all very wrong on this issue.
16
BC why are you blaming me for this lameo site's server errors? Fuck off you progressive liberal racist you hate black people!!!!
17
@16: You edited your replies before resubmitting. So you were pretty aware of existing errors in your first and subsequent submissions AND were probably aware that you'd hit submit more than once.
Good to see you blaming everyone else for your own problems, though. Good job on being consistent.
Good to see you blaming everyone else for your own problems, though. Good job on being consistent.
18
You know, if you just tasered every Republican you saw, at the end of the day, you'd be far safer than when you started.
I recommend using the Ultra-High setting, personally.
I recommend using the Ultra-High setting, personally.
19
Give me a K (K)
Give me a K (K)
Give me a K (K)
What's that spell?
The poster @ 3,5,8,9.10, and 16.
Give me a K (K)
Give me a K (K)
What's that spell?
The poster @ 3,5,8,9.10, and 16.
20
By the way, why does "anonymous" mean racist so often?
Is it because you know if you said that in person, you'd have your guns taken from you? Or that your primary school teacher might find out ...
Is it because you know if you said that in person, you'd have your guns taken from you? Or that your primary school teacher might find out ...
21
Baconshit - I kept getting an "internal server error" so I kept trying and once I corrected a typo - OH NOES! Unfortunately for you, the fact that I got server errors and made a typo on a phone does not detract in any way from the facts that blacks committed 14 of the 28 murders in Seattle in 2008 and 12 of the 21 murders in seattle in 2009. Why do you supposedly enlightened Seattle liberals want to surpress or discount the importance of the facts about black violent crime rates in Seattle? THE FACT REMAINS THAT BLACKS CAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF CIVILITY PROBLEMS IN DOWNTOWN SEATTLE - NOT BEGGING BUMS
22
No, the enlightened liberals you constantly decry are the ones pointing out the majority of supposed solutions that haven't worked, like simple incarceration, jailing people for minor crimes and so on and so forth. They're the same that attempt to provide alternate means of actual social assistance, but somehow -- magically -- those attempts are always defunded before they're deployed and we default to the same old tired "throw them in jail and wait" tactic.
I know, I know, it's crazy to suggest throwing in one guy who got weed from his friend in jail with a bunch of similar guys and a handful of criminals is going to create a negative cycle, but that's just what those wacky liberals are suggesting. It's also kinda crazy that anyone would think for one second that reversing a trend in isolating a social group and maintaining a discordant social funding scheme within that community would work in ironing out any community-wide distress or misconduct. It's never worked, no.
And goodness, I heard you the first time-- it's absolutely enraging that these crimes happen, you're right. I know that when I heard about that drive-by last June, my first instinct was to run up to some poor old lady at an ATM and just start punching her until she vomited up her Boniva while crumpled at my feet. I guess now that I know that a murder or violent crime isn't the model of civility, I may be able to control myself next time I hear a black person did something wrong.
I know, I know, it's crazy to suggest throwing in one guy who got weed from his friend in jail with a bunch of similar guys and a handful of criminals is going to create a negative cycle, but that's just what those wacky liberals are suggesting. It's also kinda crazy that anyone would think for one second that reversing a trend in isolating a social group and maintaining a discordant social funding scheme within that community would work in ironing out any community-wide distress or misconduct. It's never worked, no.
And goodness, I heard you the first time-- it's absolutely enraging that these crimes happen, you're right. I know that when I heard about that drive-by last June, my first instinct was to run up to some poor old lady at an ATM and just start punching her until she vomited up her Boniva while crumpled at my feet. I guess now that I know that a murder or violent crime isn't the model of civility, I may be able to control myself next time I hear a black person did something wrong.
23
"I know that when I heard about that drive-by last June, my first instinct was to run up to some poor old lady at an ATM and just start punching her until she vomited up her Boniva while crumpled at my feet. I guess now that I know that a murder or violent crime isn't the model of civility, I may be able to control myself next time I hear a black person did something wrong."
BC: thank you for conclusively proving that you are only interested in making stupid logical fallacies based upon absurd fantasies and conflation.
BC: thank you for conclusively proving that you are only interested in making stupid logical fallacies based upon absurd fantasies and conflation.
24
@23: Ah, but that's the rub, I was applying the same slew of fallacies you yourself made when you created this general thesis:
The facts are that blacks committed 14 of the 28 murders in Seattle in 2008 and twelve of the 21 murders in Seattle in 2009. Most of the victims were also black, which explains why you desperately try to downplay the importance of these facts, since you are just another racist Seattle liberal progressive. The problem in Seattle is violent blacks, not begging bums.
25
Personally, I'm guessing the non-voters that are "stakeholders" won't be satisfied by anything Seattle's Mayor does that isn't a giveaway to them.
Hope nobody twurders them while they're cruising the streets for jollies.
Hope nobody twurders them while they're cruising the streets for jollies.
26
"I know, I know, it's crazy to suggest throwing in one guy who got weed from his friend in jail with a bunch of similar guys and a handful of criminals is going to create a negative cycle, but that's just what those wacky liberals are suggesting. It's also kinda crazy that anyone would think for one second that reversing a trend in isolating a social group and maintaining a discordant social funding scheme within that community would work in ironing out any community-wide distress or misconduct. It's never worked, no."
I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYONE'S LAME EXCUSE FOR RAPE AND MURDER
I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYONE'S LAME EXCUSE FOR RAPE AND MURDER
27
24 wow you are so full of shit. Just try to deny the fact that blacks cause the vast majority of civility problems in downtown Seattle. Try to deny the fact that black thugs are a bigger problem than beggars. Try to deny the fact that blacks commit half the murders in Seattle while making up only a tiny percentage of its population. Go ahead and try to deny those facts. I need a good hard laugh and if it is at your expense it will be all the better.
28
@27: You haven't been able to back up your claims beyond a flawed extrapolation of murder statistics that has no basis in any kind of logic. All you've done this entire time is make yourself look incredibly paranoid and histrionic over a skewed set of numbers and an admitted lack of understanding of the underlying situation.
Your argument holds no water, and you can certainly belabor your empty point as much as you'd like, but that doesn't make it any truer. Saying "black people murder, therefore black people are the cause of civility problems" over and over again serves absolutely no rhetorical purpose. Saying "this is reality, no really, ignore what you see when you walk to and fro through downtown every day" is a self-defeating premise. At its very foundation, as I've pointed out before, your argument is simply high racism cloaked in baseless ad hominems that are painfully unaware (like saying "YOU LIBERAL RACIST!" and "YOU CONDONE MURDER AND RAPE!").
As you can well imagine, laughing won't make you look any less insane. And I guess that's my point with all this. :)
Your argument holds no water, and you can certainly belabor your empty point as much as you'd like, but that doesn't make it any truer. Saying "black people murder, therefore black people are the cause of civility problems" over and over again serves absolutely no rhetorical purpose. Saying "this is reality, no really, ignore what you see when you walk to and fro through downtown every day" is a self-defeating premise. At its very foundation, as I've pointed out before, your argument is simply high racism cloaked in baseless ad hominems that are painfully unaware (like saying "YOU LIBERAL RACIST!" and "YOU CONDONE MURDER AND RAPE!").
As you can well imagine, laughing won't make you look any less insane. And I guess that's my point with all this. :)
30
Oh come on, Baconcat, he's convinced every Klansman who posts here that he's right. Oh wait, that'd just be him....
31
@3,5,8,9.10,16,26,27:
I don't quite follow your train of thought: Instead of a $50 fine for begging, do you propose a $50 fine for being black?
I don't quite follow your train of thought: Instead of a $50 fine for begging, do you propose a $50 fine for being black?
32
Don't you pot-addled cokehead hipsters ever read a real news site with a crime section? If you did then you would realize that it is the height of idiocy to deny that blacks commit the vast majority of violent crimes in downtown, belltown, the u- district, and anywhere else in Seattle.
33
@31 haw haw more impotent hipster snark. No, I am pointing out the uselessness of a bill focusing on panhandling bums. I am also pointing out the real source of the vast majority of Seattle's civility problems and my solution is harder policing and the total disregard of black complaints of "racial profiling", since the facts prove beyond all doubt that blacks are not getting profiled ENOUGH.
34
@33: finally the troll comes up with what he thinks is a solution; it sure sounds like he'd be the sort down with a final solution...
35
34 godwins law = you lose
all you lib wimps hate any kind of police authority. It sure is easy to be super-progressive in a whiteywhite city like Seattle. Just let your city degenerate over the years... It is the progressive thing to do
all you lib wimps hate any kind of police authority. It sure is easy to be super-progressive in a whiteywhite city like Seattle. Just let your city degenerate over the years... It is the progressive thing to do
36
@32: "read real news sites" is not proof, it's just more of the same impotent disbelief that nobody is following you down your little crazy rabbit hole.
Of course, with @33 you prove that you don't actually have a solution, just some wackadoodle plan to basically police the fuck out of anything you dislike, like black people. That always works! People in police states? Yeah, so very happy.
It also proves you probably don't even live in Seattle, especially considering the current police presence in a lot of the "suspect" neighborhoods. That's worked, oh yeah, mission accomplished.
Of course, with @33 you prove that you don't actually have a solution, just some wackadoodle plan to basically police the fuck out of anything you dislike, like black people. That always works! People in police states? Yeah, so very happy.
It also proves you probably don't even live in Seattle, especially considering the current police presence in a lot of the "suspect" neighborhoods. That's worked, oh yeah, mission accomplished.
39
@35: the fact that you don't know that Godwin's law doesn't say someone wins, and that you are as equally misinformed about racial profiling speaks volumes...
this troll-y snack shop has closed.
this troll-y snack shop has closed.
40
How is your reply supposed to make you look any more reasonable or sane, @38? Oh-ho, right. That's not a concern of yours. My bad.
When someone points to actual reality, questions the source of your conclusions or calls you crazy, your immediate response is to immediately fly into this birther-cum-truther omg-how-can-you-disbelieve-everything-I'm-saying rant because, goodness, how in the world are we ignoring YOUR interpretation? Surely we're overlooking something vital.
And when asked for clarification or when someone corrects you, shrilly you scream, "LOOK AT THE NEWS, LOOK AROUND YOU! YOUR EYES ARE CLOSED TO REALITY, MAN! OPEN YOUR MIND!"
Pheeeeeew, you're slathered in crazy sauce.
Please, tell me more about this crazy theory of yours and how Seattle is spiraling into bedlam and slowly immiserating itself.
When someone points to actual reality, questions the source of your conclusions or calls you crazy, your immediate response is to immediately fly into this birther-cum-truther omg-how-can-you-disbelieve-everything-I'm-saying rant because, goodness, how in the world are we ignoring YOUR interpretation? Surely we're overlooking something vital.
And when asked for clarification or when someone corrects you, shrilly you scream, "LOOK AT THE NEWS, LOOK AROUND YOU! YOUR EYES ARE CLOSED TO REALITY, MAN! OPEN YOUR MIND!"
Pheeeeeew, you're slathered in crazy sauce.
Please, tell me more about this crazy theory of yours and how Seattle is spiraling into bedlam and slowly immiserating itself.
41
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/394367_ho…
Seattle homicides for 2008:
An informed reading reveals that blacks committed 14 of the 28 killings in Seattle that year. Blacks make up 8% of Seattle.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/413827_ho…
Seattle homicides for 2009.
An informed reading reveals that twelve of the 21 murders in Seattle in 2009 were committed by blacks, only 8% of Seattle. Therefore over half the murders in Seattle are committed by blacks, even though blacks make up a tiny percentage of Seattle.
Of the 27 officers that were shot and killed by criminals in the last 20 years in King and Pierce county, 21 of them were shot by black men, even though black men make up less than 3% of the combined populations of those counties.
Let's look at some stats in Atlanta. According to cityrating.com Atlanta's population is 431,043. There are about 149 murders per year in Atlanta (4.5 times the national average).
Let's check out Portland, OR with a population of 545,271. Portland, with a population over 100,000 more than Atlanta, has about 27 murders.
Portland = 76% white, only about 7% black
Atlanta = 31% white, 61% black.
How about New York City?
http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homici…
New York Times - New York City Interactive Homicide Map:
Blacks = 60% of the killers, 60% of the victims
Whites = 7% of the killers, 8% of the victims
Blacks = 26% of NYC population
Whites = 35% of NYC population
So what do we surmise with these stats? Answer: More black people equals more murders.
As Descartes put it, "It is characteristic of the most stringent censorships that they give credence to the very ideas they seek to suppress."
Seattle homicides for 2008:
An informed reading reveals that blacks committed 14 of the 28 killings in Seattle that year. Blacks make up 8% of Seattle.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/413827_ho…
Seattle homicides for 2009.
An informed reading reveals that twelve of the 21 murders in Seattle in 2009 were committed by blacks, only 8% of Seattle. Therefore over half the murders in Seattle are committed by blacks, even though blacks make up a tiny percentage of Seattle.
Of the 27 officers that were shot and killed by criminals in the last 20 years in King and Pierce county, 21 of them were shot by black men, even though black men make up less than 3% of the combined populations of those counties.
Let's look at some stats in Atlanta. According to cityrating.com Atlanta's population is 431,043. There are about 149 murders per year in Atlanta (4.5 times the national average).
Let's check out Portland, OR with a population of 545,271. Portland, with a population over 100,000 more than Atlanta, has about 27 murders.
Portland = 76% white, only about 7% black
Atlanta = 31% white, 61% black.
How about New York City?
http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homici…
New York Times - New York City Interactive Homicide Map:
Blacks = 60% of the killers, 60% of the victims
Whites = 7% of the killers, 8% of the victims
Blacks = 26% of NYC population
Whites = 35% of NYC population
So what do we surmise with these stats? Answer: More black people equals more murders.
As Descartes put it, "It is characteristic of the most stringent censorships that they give credence to the very ideas they seek to suppress."
42
@41: You've been asked to extend your statistical reach to more stats than just murders, which comprise a small portion of total violent crimes, but you've failed to do so. You've also been asked to express a solution for the cause and not the effect, but you've failed to do so. You've been asked to explain the relevance of your argument, but you've simply offered a limp and ineffective explanation that "this is far more important" without proving how the limited scope is a disease rather than a symptom of disease.
And, as always, further broadening the scope of statistics proves you painfully wrong: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mu…
And here is total crimes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_to…
And, as always, further broadening the scope of statistics proves you painfully wrong: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mu…
And here is total crimes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_to…
43
@33 You seem unsatisfied with the black arrest rate, so what do you suggest the police do to raise it? Wait - let me guess: set up a road block and search every black person's car for drugs and weapons.
BZZZZT! That would be a huge waste of taxpayer money since we have this thing called the 4th amendment. The arrests would be thrown out by the judge - and not because of black people crying "Profiling!" - but because the police would have broken the law.
Next suggestion? Or are you just going to call me a hipster and offer no realistic "solution?"
BZZZZT! That would be a huge waste of taxpayer money since we have this thing called the 4th amendment. The arrests would be thrown out by the judge - and not because of black people crying "Profiling!" - but because the police would have broken the law.
Next suggestion? Or are you just going to call me a hipster and offer no realistic "solution?"
44
Guess what dipshit the vast majority of crimes in NZ and those euro countries are committed by nonwhites. In those north euro countries Arab ans African immigrants commit the vast majority of violent crime. In your first link the top 3 countries are nonwhite and 2 of the 3 are black countries. Also, the USA is about 75% white and only about 13% black. Thank you so much for helping me prove my point. God damn you are a total dumbshit.
46
@44: Again you don't have any hard data to back this up nor are you expanding your scope to take anything into account beyond these cherry-picked numbers. I'm sure you'd find striking congruence in criminal peer groups and the communities they come from, nation to nation, from historic and political treatment to general modern perceptions in the country.
For example, in the UK, crime among white teens is strongly related to living in council houses on various doles. In NZ, the Maori population has been fairly poorly treated and disrespected such that poverty and crime are the norm and those factors are used to justify further mistreatment.
Oh, but solving these kinds of problems would require society-wide participation in betterment. I'm sorry, perhaps that's a bit hard for someone with your, ah, affliction.
For example, in the UK, crime among white teens is strongly related to living in council houses on various doles. In NZ, the Maori population has been fairly poorly treated and disrespected such that poverty and crime are the norm and those factors are used to justify further mistreatment.
Oh, but solving these kinds of problems would require society-wide participation in betterment. I'm sorry, perhaps that's a bit hard for someone with your, ah, affliction.
47
Like I wrote earlier I hear blacks say the nword all day downtown while they attack each other (and they sure aren't using it as a term of comaraderie or endearment) so I have no need to say it. Similarly, I have no need to oppress blacks. They do an awesome job of that all by themselves. Too bad for you your dumb crack does not make the facts about black crime in Seattle go away.
48
Like I wrote earlier I don't give a shit about someone's lame excuse for committing murder and rape.
49
@48: You haven't qualified that statement with any proof that I've excused murder or rape.
@47: And to this, you're only furthering the reality that you've probably never been downtown.
@47: And to this, you're only furthering the reality that you've probably never been downtown.
50
I go down to the courthouses every day from my office near 3rd. & pine. You don't know Jack shit about what I see downtown every day.
51
@50: Actually, I can see 2 Union Square out one window, my own little supermarket/deli/hoity toity sushi place out the other side, and if I crane my neck I could see all those other nifty skyscrapers. And from work, well, I can see all of downtown. Beautiful panoramic view. I'm thinking we see pretty much the same thing.
It's just our perception that's different, and clearly yours is mired in racist tropes and a disjointed paranoid reality.
Of course, since you're going to the courthouse every day, I might wonder why you'd be so married to certain race-based statistics and dreadfully afraid of approaching anything outside that neat little numerical box. Perhaps it has to do with how you make your bread.
It's just our perception that's different, and clearly yours is mired in racist tropes and a disjointed paranoid reality.
Of course, since you're going to the courthouse every day, I might wonder why you'd be so married to certain race-based statistics and dreadfully afraid of approaching anything outside that neat little numerical box. Perhaps it has to do with how you make your bread.
52
My whole point this whole time has been that the major so-called civility problems in Seattle are not caused by aggressive panhandling bums but by black thug gangsters. Do you think that aggressive panhandling bums are a bigger, more serious problem in Seattle than the black gang thug problem??
YES or NO
YES or NO
53
You have not made a single concentrated attempt at connecting the two rather disjointed concepts. You haven't backed up your claims with anything more than cherry-picked stats, and I've disagreed with you fairly vigorously. Trying to spin it as some sort of endorsement of crime is a non-starter because I've never said such things, so you can knock that particular cock out of your mouth right now.
194 out of every 100,000 people in this state will die due to heart disease, that's far more than will die through murder. Clearly, our concerns are misaligned if we're focusing on something that only effects 9 out of every 100,000 people in this state every year. The stresses associated with traumatic death via heart disease do a great deal of damage to our collective psyches.
Do you think that murders, which only effect 9 out of 100,000 people in this state, are a greater concern than heart disease which effects more than 20x that number? What kind of screwloose sadist are you?
194 out of every 100,000 people in this state will die due to heart disease, that's far more than will die through murder. Clearly, our concerns are misaligned if we're focusing on something that only effects 9 out of every 100,000 people in this state every year. The stresses associated with traumatic death via heart disease do a great deal of damage to our collective psyches.
Do you think that murders, which only effect 9 out of 100,000 people in this state, are a greater concern than heart disease which effects more than 20x that number? What kind of screwloose sadist are you?
54
@35,
You're the one here who's obsessed with the Untermenschen. If the jackboot fits, wear it.
Oh, and @52, Tim Burgess' legislation - regardless of its merits or lack thereof - is aimed at homeless people, not young gang members. Do try and stay on point, or are you continually changing the subject because your evident obsession with black people is of a, shall we say, psychosexual nature?
You're the one here who's obsessed with the Untermenschen. If the jackboot fits, wear it.
Oh, and @52, Tim Burgess' legislation - regardless of its merits or lack thereof - is aimed at homeless people, not young gang members. Do try and stay on point, or are you continually changing the subject because your evident obsession with black people is of a, shall we say, psychosexual nature?
55
You refuse to answer a simple yes or no question and then bring up your irrelevant illogical absurdities again. I am not discussing heart disease or any other natural medical process or drsorder. I asked you a simple question:
Do you think that aggressive panhandling bums are a bigger, more serious problem in Seattle than the black gang thug problem??
YES or NO
Do you think that aggressive panhandling bums are a bigger, more serious problem in Seattle than the black gang thug problem??
YES or NO
56
Oh, but it's not simply a "natural" thing, @55: Stress in caregivers is at epidemic levels: http://www.womenshealth.gov/faq/caregive…
Moreover, it creates a perpetual cycle of heart disease in some families: http://americanheart.mediaroom.com/index…
Here are various signs of stress: http://www.helpguide.org/mental/stress_s…
It's something that can be mitigated if you consider the underlying causes and address the big picture, something you're deathly afraid of because it would imply you had a part in a solution, and that requires work and concern for others.
As to your DEMAND that I answer a "simple" question, no, your question is moronic because you're weighting outcomes against each other when it's quite clear from pretty much all sociological fields of study that they are all, in aggregate, typically from the same root.
Your intentionally thin question is simply a loaded one, a plurium interrogationum, attempting to bait me into arguing on a similarly empty level as you with an easy-to-spot counter-argument from both ends. Oh, your gotcha questions-- not tonight, mister.
If I answer YES: Clearly I am a racist because I don't care about black people being murdered and am beneath contempt.
If I answer NO: I have not offered a solution congruent with yours but am also poisoning the well by offering a conflicting rationale that flies in the face of everything I've said.
But because I've already pointed out how empty your argument is and how irrational you are, neither answer is appropriate. And besides, I've already told you no dice. As it goes, the third curtain is NO ANSWER, in which case you can continually to maintain your same low and rhetorically dead road while baiting me with racist suppositions.
Which is actually my ideal course of action because you're only regressing into a more psychotically racist and less intelligent position.
So I refuse to answer your question :)
More...
Moreover, it creates a perpetual cycle of heart disease in some families: http://americanheart.mediaroom.com/index…
Here are various signs of stress: http://www.helpguide.org/mental/stress_s…
It's something that can be mitigated if you consider the underlying causes and address the big picture, something you're deathly afraid of because it would imply you had a part in a solution, and that requires work and concern for others.
As to your DEMAND that I answer a "simple" question, no, your question is moronic because you're weighting outcomes against each other when it's quite clear from pretty much all sociological fields of study that they are all, in aggregate, typically from the same root.
Your intentionally thin question is simply a loaded one, a plurium interrogationum, attempting to bait me into arguing on a similarly empty level as you with an easy-to-spot counter-argument from both ends. Oh, your gotcha questions-- not tonight, mister.
If I answer YES: Clearly I am a racist because I don't care about black people being murdered and am beneath contempt.
If I answer NO: I have not offered a solution congruent with yours but am also poisoning the well by offering a conflicting rationale that flies in the face of everything I've said.
But because I've already pointed out how empty your argument is and how irrational you are, neither answer is appropriate. And besides, I've already told you no dice. As it goes, the third curtain is NO ANSWER, in which case you can continually to maintain your same low and rhetorically dead road while baiting me with racist suppositions.
Which is actually my ideal course of action because you're only regressing into a more psychotically racist and less intelligent position.
So I refuse to answer your question :)
58
@57: That you can't come up with an intelligent question?
Bravo, man, bravo. You really showed me.
Bravo, man, bravo. You really showed me.
59
The main objections besides free speech issues from the public towards this bill have been that it does not really address the thug problem. Don't you ever read any real news? Slog does not count. Therefore my question is intelligent and simply a plain re-statement of an issue that everyone already knows exists but is too polite and progressive to identify plainly. Don't play dumb.
Do you think that aggressive panhandling bums are a bigger, more serious problem in Seattle than the black gang thug problem??
YES or NO
Do you think that aggressive panhandling bums are a bigger, more serious problem in Seattle than the black gang thug problem??
YES or NO
61
@59: Answering your idiotic question would constitute "playing dumb", I think.
Let's deconstruct your paragraph:
-"The main objections besides free speech issues from the public towards this bill have been that it does not really address the thug problem." -- lacks a quote to back up this assertion
-"Don't you ever read any real news?" -- gives no definition of "real news", leaves opening to dismiss certain news outlets as inadequate or to cherry-pick viewpoints from more amenable news sources
-"Slog does not count." -- given your vigorous self-defense here, it seems the lady doth protest too much
--"Therefore my question is intelligent and simply a plain re-statement of an issue that everyone already knows exists but is too polite and progressive to identify plainly." -- in logic camps, this is an appeal to the masses and also constitutes an argumentum ex silentio and a basic generalization whereby you propose that something is true because "everyone" says it's so, and place the burden of proof on me to disprove what you're saying without offering any clue as to what would constitute "proof"; I'm not a mind-reader, you can argue, so how can I possibly know what everyone is thinking... and since nobody would ever disagree that thugs are bad, clearly your argument is true! Moreover, what I don't say can be just as important as what I do say.
--"Don't play dumb." -- assumes a sound intellectual foundation for the question you're asking
Just because you say your question is intelligent doesn't make it so, especially if you follow up that declaration with the exact same rhetorical path as your other attempts at justifying this question's existence.
You've asked the same question numerous times and have gotten the same answer: it lacks any foundation in reason and is a clear attempt at corralling me into two distinctively negative rhetorical tracks. I've stated time and again to justify the question, back the question up and to give some kind of philosophical root to the question.
And you've reacted in the same red-faced way: you won't actually make this a valid question, and how dare I disagree with you by not answering your moronic question.
It should be easy to link the two concepts you're trying to tie together and by extension incorporate the cherry-picked crime and population stats you've selected, especially if the "real news" has covered it as extensively as you claim. Then perhaps we can hash this out pretty quickly.
Or do you want to keep entertaining me?
More...
Let's deconstruct your paragraph:
-"The main objections besides free speech issues from the public towards this bill have been that it does not really address the thug problem." -- lacks a quote to back up this assertion
-"Don't you ever read any real news?" -- gives no definition of "real news", leaves opening to dismiss certain news outlets as inadequate or to cherry-pick viewpoints from more amenable news sources
-"Slog does not count." -- given your vigorous self-defense here, it seems the lady doth protest too much
--"Therefore my question is intelligent and simply a plain re-statement of an issue that everyone already knows exists but is too polite and progressive to identify plainly." -- in logic camps, this is an appeal to the masses and also constitutes an argumentum ex silentio and a basic generalization whereby you propose that something is true because "everyone" says it's so, and place the burden of proof on me to disprove what you're saying without offering any clue as to what would constitute "proof"; I'm not a mind-reader, you can argue, so how can I possibly know what everyone is thinking... and since nobody would ever disagree that thugs are bad, clearly your argument is true! Moreover, what I don't say can be just as important as what I do say.
--"Don't play dumb." -- assumes a sound intellectual foundation for the question you're asking
Just because you say your question is intelligent doesn't make it so, especially if you follow up that declaration with the exact same rhetorical path as your other attempts at justifying this question's existence.
You've asked the same question numerous times and have gotten the same answer: it lacks any foundation in reason and is a clear attempt at corralling me into two distinctively negative rhetorical tracks. I've stated time and again to justify the question, back the question up and to give some kind of philosophical root to the question.
And you've reacted in the same red-faced way: you won't actually make this a valid question, and how dare I disagree with you by not answering your moronic question.
It should be easy to link the two concepts you're trying to tie together and by extension incorporate the cherry-picked crime and population stats you've selected, especially if the "real news" has covered it as extensively as you claim. Then perhaps we can hash this out pretty quickly.
Or do you want to keep entertaining me?
62
I've got a yes or no question for our racist troll.
Are black people genetically predisposed to crime?
Are black people genetically predisposed to crime?
63
Blah blah blah you can't answer the question. Just because you say it isn't an intelligent question does not make that true - by your own logic rules
64
"You know, if you just tasered every Republican you saw, at the end of the day, you'd be far safer than when you started.
I recommend using the Ultra-High setting, personally."
Beautiful. Thank you, Will.
I recommend using the Ultra-High setting, personally."
Beautiful. Thank you, Will.
67
@63: I've already explained why your question makes absolutely no sense, semantics are irrelevant to your deliberate dodge. I've also explained that you were banking on three possibilities, yes, no, or no answer, which all have a negative response from you.
I also told you that it's really entertaining to watch you get pissy over people deflecting your idiotic question.
As to co-opting my statement regarding the intelligence of your question, it's becoming more apparent that the fault isn't with the question itself, but with the person asking the question.
The further and further you drift from having to own your question, the more ludicrous it is for me to answer it. And that's the delightful part. I can see you TAP-TAP-TAPPING away, shrieking "ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!!"
Mmmmmmm, feels good while I wait for my hummus to set and orzo cool.
I also told you that it's really entertaining to watch you get pissy over people deflecting your idiotic question.
As to co-opting my statement regarding the intelligence of your question, it's becoming more apparent that the fault isn't with the question itself, but with the person asking the question.
The further and further you drift from having to own your question, the more ludicrous it is for me to answer it. And that's the delightful part. I can see you TAP-TAP-TAPPING away, shrieking "ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!!"
Mmmmmmm, feels good while I wait for my hummus to set and orzo cool.
68
@67,
I'm gonna go out and drink beer and watch bands now. I gratefully leave our sputtering racist troll (who I strongly suspect has taken a short Cheeto break down in his mommy's basement) in the capable hands of Baconcat. Dissect away!
I'm gonna go out and drink beer and watch bands now. I gratefully leave our sputtering racist troll (who I strongly suspect has taken a short Cheeto break down in his mommy's basement) in the capable hands of Baconcat. Dissect away!
69
@67: "I also told you that it's really entertaining to watch you get pissy over people deflecting your idiotic question."
...hey man don't slam me along with this guy, maybe u meant get Brissey, right, right? :)
...hey man don't slam me along with this guy, maybe u meant get Brissey, right, right? :)
71
Ha ha I've been having an awesome time of great amusement too! Plus I know the facts about reality that you deny!!! Ha ha ha!!!!!
72
@ 68: I'm also going to go brave the thug infested streets for a bit, hopefully will be back soon, you know it's a jungle (or something) out there...
73
@71: Your reply totally disproves the theory that you're completely nutter butters. Yep.
Nothin' to see here, folks. Just a sane guy makin' sane comments and exercising his right to the exclamation key sanely.
I feel I've accomplished much tonight, so let me take it down a key or two. It's been great, really, it's been great... all of you, great people, great times. We've been brought together here to watch the fabulous flaming out of a wackadoodle unregistered commenter, the likes of which I haven't seen since Tippi Hedren had her ill-fated 3 night engagement at the Copa, resplendent in opalescent rhinestones, sitting astride a grand piano and putting on airs of sanity.
Oh, we knew she was five steps into the mental muck, but boy, was she ever delusional! So, here she is, on a piano. Patter. A bit of light laughter. A song, perhaps. All the while, the clock ticked almost as frequently as her face did. It was only a matter of time.
Finally, at nearly 10 to 2, Tippi stepped down from the piano, her shimmering italian clogs clacking down the steps, and made her way to the audience. And lo, but who did we find in this audience? None other than Montgomery Clift!
Well! Tippi being a lovesick 30-something and he a enfeebled drug addict, things were certainly tense in the split second of calm before the drunken Montgomery rose to his wobbly scarified legs and shouted, "TIPPI, YOU BITCH!"
The words did more than any punch could and Tippi took 3 steps back and was lifted by clumsiness off those clogs and fell square into the lap of Lauren Bacall. Lauren, sensing the tenseness of the moment immediately dumped Tippi carelessly onto the floor, and sensing a spotlight growing cold, rushed to the piano and asked the piano player to play the one song she felt competent at a classic at that time, one I'd like to sing for you all tonight, if you'll oblige me...
More...
Nothin' to see here, folks. Just a sane guy makin' sane comments and exercising his right to the exclamation key sanely.
I feel I've accomplished much tonight, so let me take it down a key or two. It's been great, really, it's been great... all of you, great people, great times. We've been brought together here to watch the fabulous flaming out of a wackadoodle unregistered commenter, the likes of which I haven't seen since Tippi Hedren had her ill-fated 3 night engagement at the Copa, resplendent in opalescent rhinestones, sitting astride a grand piano and putting on airs of sanity.
Oh, we knew she was five steps into the mental muck, but boy, was she ever delusional! So, here she is, on a piano. Patter. A bit of light laughter. A song, perhaps. All the while, the clock ticked almost as frequently as her face did. It was only a matter of time.
Finally, at nearly 10 to 2, Tippi stepped down from the piano, her shimmering italian clogs clacking down the steps, and made her way to the audience. And lo, but who did we find in this audience? None other than Montgomery Clift!
Well! Tippi being a lovesick 30-something and he a enfeebled drug addict, things were certainly tense in the split second of calm before the drunken Montgomery rose to his wobbly scarified legs and shouted, "TIPPI, YOU BITCH!"
The words did more than any punch could and Tippi took 3 steps back and was lifted by clumsiness off those clogs and fell square into the lap of Lauren Bacall. Lauren, sensing the tenseness of the moment immediately dumped Tippi carelessly onto the floor, and sensing a spotlight growing cold, rushed to the piano and asked the piano player to play the one song she felt competent at a classic at that time, one I'd like to sing for you all tonight, if you'll oblige me...
74
Thanks for tacitly acknowledging that you think that black gang thug violence is a bigger problem than panhandling bums.
75
@74: When someone doesn't answer your question or answers in an unsatisfactory way, make up an answer for them! Clearly that's a sound policy and holds water. When probed you can simply say, "didn't you read his replies? He agreed with me, just read his replies!"
Fabricating reality meshes well with your entire line of reasoning because when you bandy about facts and statistics like you do, it's all too easy to lose track of them. There's just so many! Instead of backtracking or researching, it's far more expedient to just make shit up on the spot and then deflect any questions by claiming the other person isn't seeing what you're seeing.
More than that, it makes your question look SO IMPORTANT that people answer it without actually saying anything. Burden of proof? Fuck that! It's all about a hard-scrabble reach for a pebble to call a boulder.
Congratulations, you've won! You've defeated common sense and intelligent discourse, @74. Take a hot shower, you've earned this one.
Fabricating reality meshes well with your entire line of reasoning because when you bandy about facts and statistics like you do, it's all too easy to lose track of them. There's just so many! Instead of backtracking or researching, it's far more expedient to just make shit up on the spot and then deflect any questions by claiming the other person isn't seeing what you're seeing.
More than that, it makes your question look SO IMPORTANT that people answer it without actually saying anything. Burden of proof? Fuck that! It's all about a hard-scrabble reach for a pebble to call a boulder.
Congratulations, you've won! You've defeated common sense and intelligent discourse, @74. Take a hot shower, you've earned this one.
76
See? @74 didn't reply before I replied.
Clearly he agrees with me. Have a great night, folks. Enjoy your Saturday :)
Clearly he agrees with me. Have a great night, folks. Enjoy your Saturday :)
77
Thanks again and again for tacitly acknowledging that you think that black gang thug violence is a bigger problem than panhandling bums.
79
@78: I made garbanzos with orzo tossed in olive oil and onions. Really, it's your loss.
I feel quite bad for you. I know you're sad, but thanks for proving I'm an awesome cook.
I feel quite bad for you. I know you're sad, but thanks for proving I'm an awesome cook.
80
Er, actually, I haven't eaten it yet, it's still finishing up-- 10 more minutes. So I'm sitting here, close by the stove, waiting for it to finish.
Yes, I know, I'm awesome. See, you didn't even have to tell me! Your silent awe is adequate acknowledgment.
Yes, I know, I'm awesome. See, you didn't even have to tell me! Your silent awe is adequate acknowledgment.
81
I think we need to put this into the constitution. I don't understand why these people are begging for money, or what may fix it, but I think if we fine them $50 that'll solve it, or at least maybe they'd start paying for themselves.
86
Hey lookie lookie at the recent news!:
seattlepi.com/local/417073_drowning19.ht…;
abuse & drowning of child = BLACKS
seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/198822…;
armed robber on the run in north Seattle = BLACK
seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/198823…;
gang shooting near Seattle center = BLACKS
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/arc…
murder fugitive arrested = BLACK
funny I couldn't find ANY stories about panhandling bums. Can someone please answer this question honestly and directly:
Do you think panhandling bums are a bigger problem in Seattle than violent black thugs?????
seattlepi.com/local/417073_drowning19.ht…;
abuse & drowning of child = BLACKS
seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/198822…;
armed robber on the run in north Seattle = BLACK
seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/198823…;
gang shooting near Seattle center = BLACKS
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/arc…
murder fugitive arrested = BLACK
funny I couldn't find ANY stories about panhandling bums. Can someone please answer this question honestly and directly:
Do you think panhandling bums are a bigger problem in Seattle than violent black thugs?????
87
From centraldistrictnews.com march 18:
1:52PM - 500 19th Ave E. - Purse Snatch - A group of three men grabbed a woman's purse and drove away. Three black males, left in a purple Ford Explorer, southbound on 20th E eastbound on E. Mercer.
Update: Main suspect is the driver, described as black male, 40s, bald, stocky build, 5'9",
http://centraldistrictnews.com/2010/03/1…
1:52PM - 500 19th Ave E. - Purse Snatch - A group of three men grabbed a woman's purse and drove away. Three black males, left in a purple Ford Explorer, southbound on 20th E eastbound on E. Mercer.
Update: Main suspect is the driver, described as black male, 40s, bald, stocky build, 5'9",
http://centraldistrictnews.com/2010/03/1…
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