Slog
News & ArtsThursday, March 18, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Are Gay Men Unbearable?
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM
I'm gay. I'm a teenager. I like men and many would assume I want to go with other gay guys. My problem is that im not attracted to the personality that most gay guys have—not at all. I like straight guys pretty much, so I consider myself "screwed" in terms of sex. I have cried myself to sleep because of this countless times. What should I do? I have tried so hard to be attracted to guys who are possibly gay but I just can't like that personality. Is there any way I can change myself? Or get a straight guy? I know this question sounds awkward and stupid but I really need help on this one, what should i do?
Helpless Gay Guy
My response after the jump...
I want to turn this one over to the commenters here on Slog, many of whom are gay, but first...
When you feel like crying, HGG, just remind yourself that most out gay teenagers—most of your out gay peers—are out because they can't be in, i.e. they're too stereotypically gay and/or effeminate to pass for straight. This phenomenon can lead gay teenagers, closeted or not, to assume that all adult gay men have to be stereotypically gay and/or effeminate because all the gay boys they've met are. Now lots of adult gay men are, without a doubt, stereotypically gay and/or effeminate, HGG, and there's absolutely nothing wrong that. There's nothing wrong with guys who are swishy or interested in fashion or musicals or divas or whatever, and there's nothing wrong with guys who find stereotypically gay and/or effeminate guys attractive. (Ahem.) But there are plenty of "straight-acting"—ugh to that term—gay guys out there, HGG, guys whose "personalities" you'll find attractive, but you're not going to meet many at your high school or in your gay youth group. So just hang in there, kiddo, okay?
Remind yourself of that constantly, HGG, because you don't want to accidentally convince yourself that homosexuality in men is an unattractive/stereotypically-gay personality trait. Do that and you will be alone all your life.
Okay, Slog fags, got any advice/moral support for this kid?
1
You don't have to be attracted to people to fuck them. Hell, I've been in countless relationships that sucked because I was still looking for the right person.
2
A little bit of life experience will show you that not all gay men are the same. Hell, some of them could even pass for straight.
Teenage years are hell. Hang in there. It gets so much better.
Teenage years are hell. Hang in there. It gets so much better.
3
I'm not gay, but you pretty much said it, Dan. There's plenty of 100% gay men who "act straight" (whatever that means) and I'm sure HGG will find the right guy for him someday soon. He might be surprised to learn how many "straight-acting guys" are actually gay just like him.
But for HGG, I might add this advice: being straight, it's often hard to find a GIRL whose personality I really like. So while I'm not about to say being gay is "no harder than being straight" in our society, I will say that this problem likely has less to do with being gay and more to do with simply finding the right person for you. Doing that is hard for everyone, gay or straight.
But for HGG, I might add this advice: being straight, it's often hard to find a GIRL whose personality I really like. So while I'm not about to say being gay is "no harder than being straight" in our society, I will say that this problem likely has less to do with being gay and more to do with simply finding the right person for you. Doing that is hard for everyone, gay or straight.
5
Ugh, this coming on the tail of the story of the poor lesbian with the crazy parents. You're a teen, you have SO MUCH SEX ahead of you. Either blow the football team or just watch straight porn until you're a person in the real world, then you'll be fine. Crying yourself to sleep? Chill out, jesus.
6
To the letter writer: you're gay. Do you think you have an unattractive personality? No? Then you know that gay guys exist you could find attractive, you narcissist.
8
Even though you are a teenager and you've got your head on straight solidly enough to know that you're gay for sure, which puts you steps ahead of bisexual-phase-teenage me
9
dan is right,
Gay teenagers tend to be so gay they can't hide it. Your peer group will catch up with you and come out in college, after college. You should learn to embrace your gay traits. Often, not yet out gays will reject anything perceived as gay to prove, to themselves, to others that THEY are not like that.
If you learn to like those traits in yourself you will be able to accept them in others.
Gay teenagers tend to be so gay they can't hide it. Your peer group will catch up with you and come out in college, after college. You should learn to embrace your gay traits. Often, not yet out gays will reject anything perceived as gay to prove, to themselves, to others that THEY are not like that.
If you learn to like those traits in yourself you will be able to accept them in others.
10
HGG: Dan is absolutely right. I came out WAY too late in life to know first hand what the prospects are like out there for a guy your age, but you'll see soon enough that gay men come in all shapes & sizes.
Not sure what the social climate is like where you live, but you might want to check out a local gay softball/other sport league. You'll never find more butch homos than on the diamond.
Not sure what the social climate is like where you live, but you might want to check out a local gay softball/other sport league. You'll never find more butch homos than on the diamond.
11
Oh God. All gay men have had a "friend" like this guy, at one point in their lives. They don't like the way gay men behave, or act, or live their lives. In the movie "Jeffrey," Patrick Stewart's character even makes a mockery of this "type" of gay. He'll claim he's a "versatile top" (because that sounds so much more macho) when in reality he only likes to bottom.
Basically, they're homophobic homosexuals. In my opinion, they're nothing but whiny nightmares to be around.
Basically, they're homophobic homosexuals. In my opinion, they're nothing but whiny nightmares to be around.
12
I was like that in high school, and I attribute it to a little bit of internalized homophobia. Gays are so disliked and hated by so much of the population that while you realize you are gay, you tell yourself and others, "well, I'm not THAT kind of gay," the kind that attract most of the hatred. You are unattracted to them because those are the aspects of yourself that you dislike the most. And you disassociate yourself from them as if there was a kind of gay that was better than another kind of gay.
But then you grow up and you get over it. You realize that most gay men aren't swishy queens, and the ones that are are your brothers-in-arms too, but you are by no means required to sleep with them if you don't want to.
But then you grow up and you get over it. You realize that most gay men aren't swishy queens, and the ones that are are your brothers-in-arms too, but you are by no means required to sleep with them if you don't want to.
13
btw, I consider myself pretty butch, except for when "Lucky Star" by Madonna comes on the radio. And anything by George Michael. Other than that, super butch.
14
Personalities evolve and are fluid just like sexual orientation sometimes is. Some of the effeminate ones might become a bit more typically male if you're involved with their lives and have any influence over them. Often it's a case that they just don't know how else to act and they're just fulfilling the stereotypes because that's what's expected. Don't let it get you down, but don't be so dismissive of the musical lovers. And who knows... you might show them what's great about not being stereotypical, but they might get you to watch and love the Oscar pre-show.
16
Even though you are a teenager and you've got your head on straight (ahem) enough to know that you're gay for sure, which puts you steps ahead of confused-bisexual-phase teenage me, you still don't really know what you're going to like as an adult, nor do you really have any idea about what kind of guys are out there.
In some ways I probably would have said things like you if I'd ever been forced to describe what type of guys I liked at that age. And I would never believe that I'd get to have so much fun with guys who were so much more "straight-acting"* than I even imagined existed in my wildest dreams (and my dreams were pretty wild), but I also wouldn't have believed that I'd have had so much fun with so many guys who my younger self would have dismissed as "too gay."
In other words,(a) thank God I grew up and (b) even as a grown-up, I'm still meeting different types of gay men, so I'm going to guess that you haven't met them all either.
In some ways I probably would have said things like you if I'd ever been forced to describe what type of guys I liked at that age. And I would never believe that I'd get to have so much fun with guys who were so much more "straight-acting"* than I even imagined existed in my wildest dreams (and my dreams were pretty wild), but I also wouldn't have believed that I'd have had so much fun with so many guys who my younger self would have dismissed as "too gay."
In other words,(a) thank God I grew up and (b) even as a grown-up, I'm still meeting different types of gay men, so I'm going to guess that you haven't met them all either.
17
Be yourself (and be out) in all of your pursuits in school, on the athletic fields if you play sports, in your extra-curricular activities, and in your social life both at school and beyond. When friends and acquaintances find that you're a friendly, interesting person who happens to be gay, they may set you up with other friendly, interesting people they know who happen to be gay. I recommend looking into dating outside of your own school --- this is good advice for straight kids, too --- by connecting at all-ages venues and centers (Lambert House, Vera Project and 826 Seattle here in Seattle are good examples here in Seattle.)
Dan has an important point: avoid the pitfall of looking down on other gay youth who are out and flamboyant and "stereotypically gay." That'll make you an asshole.
Dan has an important point: avoid the pitfall of looking down on other gay youth who are out and flamboyant and "stereotypically gay." That'll make you an asshole.
18
* 'straight-acting' I, too, hate that word, but the problem with discussing terms that are pretty offensive is that you can't find inoffensive words.
Speaking of, Dan can refer to me as a fag anytime. I'm just unbearable that way. Oh yeah, that's the other lesson I forgot:
(c) lots of gay men are unbearable... but don't become one of them by growing up to be a judgmental prick.
Speaking of, Dan can refer to me as a fag anytime. I'm just unbearable that way. Oh yeah, that's the other lesson I forgot:
(c) lots of gay men are unbearable... but don't become one of them by growing up to be a judgmental prick.
19
I wish I could find a link to a series of articles from a few years back, titled "Young and Gay in Real America" or somesuch. It was about a gay teen in Oklahoma. One of his high school boyfriends thought the height of romance was working on a truck together. If that kid can find it in Oklahoma, I would suspect you can find it wherever you are.
20
Another thing for HGG to keep in mind is that as we age, we tend to lose a lot of the in-your-face "typically gay" characteristics and settle into just being straightforwardly ourselves, which may or may not look like what he's seeing as stereotypically gay. There are plenty of gay guys out there who like to hang out watching sports on television, go to rodeos, work in the trades, and generally act just as "straight" and "butch" as any straight guy -- and who may have started their post-puberty lives swishy as all get out. Patience, young man, patience. Just because all you're seeing right now is outrageous doesn't mean that all you'll ever see will be outrageous. You won't have to struggle with being attracted only to straight-acting (yes, ugh to that phrase) guys all your life.
21
aaaaa!!!! the observer had an absolutely fucking leotarded trend piece about straight-acting gays. they even tried to popularize the term "bromosexual": http://www.observer.com/2010/culture/bro…
(fair warning: the article is - as i said - completely fucking stupid).
(fair warning: the article is - as i said - completely fucking stupid).
22
I felt the same way you do when I was in college, except I was (and am) one of those showtune-loving diva queens who didn't want to date anyone like myself. But as I've gotten older, I've learned that everything you hear, read or see about gay "types" is a whole lotta crap. So don't buy into it. I hated hearing this when I was your age, but the older you get, the more people you'll meet and the more *kinds* of people you'll meet. And a whole helluva lot of them are nothing like whatshisfuck on Will & Grace.
Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, "straight acting" means you eat pussy and "straight appearing" means you do it in pubic.
Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, "straight acting" means you eat pussy and "straight appearing" means you do it in pubic.
23
This is not uncommon. As you grow into your world view it will expand how you see others and your tastes will change. I know it's bothersome to hear, but you need to relax and trust an older man's experience. Dan's correct. And be happy. There are all kinds of gay men. You just need a little time. You will find plenty of men who are your type.
24
I prefer the term "macho" to "straight-acting", but whatever. The point is, this guy can date macho guys, but he just needs to know that no matter how straight they may appear, every gay man has an OGT (obvious gay trait) that will rear it's head at some point, so you've got to learn to accept them... Mine is a guilty love for bad techno music on c89.5, and one of the burliest guys I know turns into a dancing queen every time ABBA comes on. (pun intended)
Point is, you'll never find a perfectly masculine gay man, so don't waste your energy trying. Better to come to grips with the inherent nature of gayness and accept gay for what it is.
Point is, you'll never find a perfectly masculine gay man, so don't waste your energy trying. Better to come to grips with the inherent nature of gayness and accept gay for what it is.
25
Congratulations, you're a bear!
No, seriously. I had the same damn problem when I was 17 myself. Turns out that there are a lot of gay dudes out there who you're gonna totally wanna make out with - it's just that high school isn't usually the time when we come out for the first time. Be patient, know what you want, and wait for it. It'll come.
No, seriously. I had the same damn problem when I was 17 myself. Turns out that there are a lot of gay dudes out there who you're gonna totally wanna make out with - it's just that high school isn't usually the time when we come out for the first time. Be patient, know what you want, and wait for it. It'll come.
26
Being a regular guy and gay are not mutually exclusive. You will find people with whom you click, but it may take time. Maybe it would help to learn to laugh with the stereotypical gay guys so you can commiserate. So many of them are really funny if you allow yourself to laugh. You don't have to be attracted to them physically in order to be friends. I'm a regular gay guy who accidentally passes for straight all the time even though I'm not closeted, but some of my best buddies can swish with the best of them. Remember, the out gay boys tend to know the closeted gay boys, so maybe you'll find one willing to introduce you to someone more your type. Listen to the advice here. Much of it is good. Finding you match is a matter of luck and timing. Good luck.
27
Just hang in there, HGG. Of the three boyfriends I've had (including my current one), two of them are "straight" acting. One of these two even loves football (much to my dismay). But as Dan and these commenters have said, it will be a while before many gay-but-not-gay-acting guys come out. My current boyfriend didn't come out until the end of college.
Meanwhile, if you want some action, take advantage of the fact that most straight guys in high school are typically horny enough where they don't care whether it's a guy or a girl sucking them off. Seriously. Be aggressively flirty and you'll be surprised how many straight guys won't mind at all. And you may find that one of these "straight" guys is gay after all. In fact, I was one of them (as well as another once-closeted friend of mine).
Meanwhile, if you want some action, take advantage of the fact that most straight guys in high school are typically horny enough where they don't care whether it's a guy or a girl sucking them off. Seriously. Be aggressively flirty and you'll be surprised how many straight guys won't mind at all. And you may find that one of these "straight" guys is gay after all. In fact, I was one of them (as well as another once-closeted friend of mine).
29
"Every flamingly flamboyant gay I've ever met has been flamingly flamboyant! Waaaaahhhh!"
Circular reasoning will get you nowhere, son.
Circular reasoning will get you nowhere, son.
30
Things have changed a lot for gay teenagers with the letter writer's generation. There are tons of gay teens who are super proud of being gay--which is wonderful!--but as they try to fill that role they go waaaay overboard (as teenagers are prone). I think it's completely adorable and heartening to see young people being free to act as gay as they want. But I can see why it might be obnoxious to someone in their peer group who's kind of over it and ready to just be themselves.
Hang in there, letter writer. Cut the others some slack, they're just having fun. Cut yourself some slack, too. The best years are yet to come!
Hang in there, letter writer. Cut the others some slack, they're just having fun. Cut yourself some slack, too. The best years are yet to come!
31
Being a straight girl, I may be way off base here, but aren't bears the most manly-man of men? Bears are explicitly into masculinity. HGG, you may just be a cub.
32
Cry me a f**king river! GET OVER IT AND LEARN TO COMPROMISE. I'm not a Slog fag, but I've got some harsh reality for you as a straight male: I'm not so pleased with having to put up with womens' stereotypical shit either, but they have the equipment that turns me on, so I indulge them.
There's nothing more that I hate than shopping, or smelling 5 different perfumes and recommending which one to buy (please pick the flowery one so I can gag as I run my tongue along your neck and taste the rancid crap you are spraying on daily), or looking for furniture.
I'll admit that I've only know 2 gay guys in my 30+ years of life, but I have to believe that homosexuals have the same relationship dynamics that heteros have (i.e. - dominant vs submissive, nagging vs nagged, masculine vs femenine), so the same compromises must take place. If a guy turns you on physically, get to know him personally. If there is enough physical and mental compatibility to overlook the habits that drive you batshit crazy, go for a relationship and communicate what pisses you off to your significant other. It will work itself out in the end if you are both honest. After 13 years of marriage, my wife knows not to argue when I decide to stay in the car and read rather than patrol a mall and look for sales. She got a ride to the mall, has my credit cards, and gets a ride home, so she doesn't drag me through the stereotypical female shopping spree that would make me puke.
Isn't love grand?
There's nothing more that I hate than shopping, or smelling 5 different perfumes and recommending which one to buy (please pick the flowery one so I can gag as I run my tongue along your neck and taste the rancid crap you are spraying on daily), or looking for furniture.
I'll admit that I've only know 2 gay guys in my 30+ years of life, but I have to believe that homosexuals have the same relationship dynamics that heteros have (i.e. - dominant vs submissive, nagging vs nagged, masculine vs femenine), so the same compromises must take place. If a guy turns you on physically, get to know him personally. If there is enough physical and mental compatibility to overlook the habits that drive you batshit crazy, go for a relationship and communicate what pisses you off to your significant other. It will work itself out in the end if you are both honest. After 13 years of marriage, my wife knows not to argue when I decide to stay in the car and read rather than patrol a mall and look for sales. She got a ride to the mall, has my credit cards, and gets a ride home, so she doesn't drag me through the stereotypical female shopping spree that would make me puke.
Isn't love grand?
33
Seattle in my experience is a particularly good city when it comes to gays who don't act that gay. We don't have a great gay dance scene. The entire city dresses way down for everything. The city is well situated with respect to a lot of outdoor activities that tend to draw gay men more into what most people would consider guy things.
Do the things you enjoy doing. Evenutally your gaydar will improve to the point that you will be able to confidently grope a straight acting stranger on the bus.
Do the things you enjoy doing. Evenutally your gaydar will improve to the point that you will be able to confidently grope a straight acting stranger on the bus.
34
Hey, SLOG, thanks for the support to HGG, a stiff birdie to the few haters, but I think HGG's issue is important, in that the "gay culture" will be growing exponentially as it is becoming not only 100% legal, but 95% accepted. Soon! It's happening and the tide can't go back. HGG's problem is ahead of the curve, as the definitions for "gay culture" will soon become obsolete, and we'll need to use new language.
Yes, the gays of yesteryear have intricate & specific words for the different kinds of gay men, gay experiences, etc, but all those terms originated from a wholly- or partially- closeted experience. And as everyone knows, the closet includes a large amount of self-hatred, and that old language is dripping w/ it. We need new language to describe the various elements that will make up the "gay culture" of the future, which is going to be a culture that views the closet as something distant and quaint, like public executions. i.e. Something to be taken seriously, but not something that is part of anyone's direct or even indirect experience.
Yes, the gays of yesteryear have intricate & specific words for the different kinds of gay men, gay experiences, etc, but all those terms originated from a wholly- or partially- closeted experience. And as everyone knows, the closet includes a large amount of self-hatred, and that old language is dripping w/ it. We need new language to describe the various elements that will make up the "gay culture" of the future, which is going to be a culture that views the closet as something distant and quaint, like public executions. i.e. Something to be taken seriously, but not something that is part of anyone's direct or even indirect experience.
35
Yeah, I remember being young. Guys like Johnny Weir terrified me. They're so swishy, flamboyant, ubber-feminine. And *I'm* not like that. I'm *normal*. Everybody hates those sissy-boys. I didn't want to have anything to do with them.
I know now that this was my own fear and insecurity talking. Now I have enormous respect and admiration for the Johnny Weirs of the world. I still wouldn't date him--I'm still more attracted to more butch guys. But check your own internalized homophobia.
And Dan is right. There are undoubtedly other other butch gay boys in your school. The problem is they are completely invisible and in the closet. You are unlikely to meet guys like that until you are past high school, when guys like that are more comfortable coming out. There are exceptions, but most of the boys that come out in high school really don't have much choice.
So either get over your fears and date a sissy-boy, or wait a couple years.
I know now that this was my own fear and insecurity talking. Now I have enormous respect and admiration for the Johnny Weirs of the world. I still wouldn't date him--I'm still more attracted to more butch guys. But check your own internalized homophobia.
And Dan is right. There are undoubtedly other other butch gay boys in your school. The problem is they are completely invisible and in the closet. You are unlikely to meet guys like that until you are past high school, when guys like that are more comfortable coming out. There are exceptions, but most of the boys that come out in high school really don't have much choice.
So either get over your fears and date a sissy-boy, or wait a couple years.
36
What is this? He needs sense to be talked into him. And fyi, HGG, if a straight guy goes with you, he's not straight anymore!
37
Hey, Kid. If you're "straight-appearing", it'll come in handy down the road. In addition to two older kids, I have twins who are now three. Jesus, when they were babies and I was shopping at the grocery store with them, it was wonderful to appear "straight-acting". Women would think I was so awesome for giving my "wife" a break by taking the kids to grocery store. The store clerks would help me with everything since, as a man, I couldn't possibly know anything about babies and would be incapable of caring for my children and pushing the shopping cart to the car. So, the employees would push my cart to the car and unload my groceries. Women would let me get in front of them in line at the checkout stand. It was wonderful.
However, you should remember that "straight-appearing" is not equivalent to "normal". As Dan pointed out, there's absolutely nothing wrong with stereotypical gay men. It's taken almost three years for some of my stereotypical gay friends to be themselves around my kids. Initially, they were tense and trying to be butch because that's what they thought they should be around my kids. I hated it. I became friends with them for who they are and want my children to love and appreciate them for they are, too.
So, be yourself, relax, and you will meet whatever guy it is you are seeking. Meanwhile, enjoy your youth. Once you're grown and have the responsibilities of a mortgage, college tuition for your kids, braces for your kids, kids who won't give you any privacy so that their Daddies could maybe actually have some "bedroom time", you will look back at your youth and not regret the good times you had then and the wonderful times you have now as a family. Good luck!
However, you should remember that "straight-appearing" is not equivalent to "normal". As Dan pointed out, there's absolutely nothing wrong with stereotypical gay men. It's taken almost three years for some of my stereotypical gay friends to be themselves around my kids. Initially, they were tense and trying to be butch because that's what they thought they should be around my kids. I hated it. I became friends with them for who they are and want my children to love and appreciate them for they are, too.
So, be yourself, relax, and you will meet whatever guy it is you are seeking. Meanwhile, enjoy your youth. Once you're grown and have the responsibilities of a mortgage, college tuition for your kids, braces for your kids, kids who won't give you any privacy so that their Daddies could maybe actually have some "bedroom time", you will look back at your youth and not regret the good times you had then and the wonderful times you have now as a family. Good luck!
38
What Dan said. I felt the same way when I was HGG's age. Over time, as I became more comfortable with being gay, I became more comfortable with gay guys who exhibited the more stereotypical traits that turned me off, and now I can celebrate those parts of who we are. You'll realize that gay people come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and flavors. Hang in there.
39
I was out and then I wasn't, thanks to my grandma. Spent about a year in the closet when I figured out I was 100% gay and tried unsuccessfully to come out to my grandmother who immediately flung open curtain #3, which was the threat of adoption when she realized why I was asking her such leading questions.
So for part of my senior year and freshman year of college, I was in a very thin-walled closet. Asked my best-friend out on a date, claimed I liked her, she started crying because she had just heard about a similar case or something that ended with the closeted kid killing himself after his attempts at playing straight failed spectacularly. Went to prom by myself, missed an after-party where a guy planned on asking me out, then spent most of my freshman year being all forlorn and pulling that "gay guys suck, they suck" thing.
Then I came out and felt a whole lot better.
And really, you can say "oh, nobody knows my secret", but I guarantee there are plenty of people who do. There was a coming out pool at my high school that correctly guessed I'd come out before my 19th birthday, which I did, but that also had written "might already be out". My brother told me when he found out, "oh, I didn't know you were pretending to be straight" and that he tried to hook me up with a friend of his when I was 15 and he was 14.
You can also look down on the effeminate or flamboyant as though they don't have license to anything macho, but my friend was in the JROTC, did drag, came to prom in a dress and ceremoniously shoved away a recruiting app by saying "don't ask, don't tell" on the last day of school. Having sex with men makes you no less a man than having sex with women makes you straight -- were the latter true, I'd have a wife by now... well, okay, so it happened just once, but still.
And that goes double for holding far-too-high standards for masculinity cults. There are an awful lot of bears out there who claim to be oh-so-masculine but end up singing showtunes at karaoke, plenty of rugby playing queers who dress in drag out-of-season, more than a few gay cops who swish when they walk and more wine-swilling crudite-chomping basketball players than you'd imagine were out there.
Don't oversell your expectations.
More...
So for part of my senior year and freshman year of college, I was in a very thin-walled closet. Asked my best-friend out on a date, claimed I liked her, she started crying because she had just heard about a similar case or something that ended with the closeted kid killing himself after his attempts at playing straight failed spectacularly. Went to prom by myself, missed an after-party where a guy planned on asking me out, then spent most of my freshman year being all forlorn and pulling that "gay guys suck, they suck" thing.
Then I came out and felt a whole lot better.
And really, you can say "oh, nobody knows my secret", but I guarantee there are plenty of people who do. There was a coming out pool at my high school that correctly guessed I'd come out before my 19th birthday, which I did, but that also had written "might already be out". My brother told me when he found out, "oh, I didn't know you were pretending to be straight" and that he tried to hook me up with a friend of his when I was 15 and he was 14.
You can also look down on the effeminate or flamboyant as though they don't have license to anything macho, but my friend was in the JROTC, did drag, came to prom in a dress and ceremoniously shoved away a recruiting app by saying "don't ask, don't tell" on the last day of school. Having sex with men makes you no less a man than having sex with women makes you straight -- were the latter true, I'd have a wife by now... well, okay, so it happened just once, but still.
And that goes double for holding far-too-high standards for masculinity cults. There are an awful lot of bears out there who claim to be oh-so-masculine but end up singing showtunes at karaoke, plenty of rugby playing queers who dress in drag out-of-season, more than a few gay cops who swish when they walk and more wine-swilling crudite-chomping basketball players than you'd imagine were out there.
Don't oversell your expectations.
40
You know, some of you bitchy queens are probably exactly the type of personality HGG finds unattractive.
At no point did he refer to swishiness, or effeminacy, or lisps or anything else; he referred to personality.
Such as the type of personality that goes all claws-out psycho on a kid who's asking a legitimate question.
And even if he is talking about behavior, rather than personality: Who the hell do you think you are to judge?
HGG: You're right that some gay guys are shallow, vapid twits considerably more interested in fashion than carrying on an intelligent conversation about the world; and that some of them can be right twats when they feel their poor little feelings have been tweaked.
Some, on the other hand, are actually intelligent, pleasant people who -- lisp or swish or not -- are drop-dead sexy because they aren't flighty little himbos.
I won't advise you to hang in there and wait for college. Go get yourself involved in a youth organization now, if there are any nearby, or take advantage of web sites like adam4adam.com. You stand a chance of meeting someone, relatively soon, whose personality might be a little closer to what you're looking for.
Best of luck.
At no point did he refer to swishiness, or effeminacy, or lisps or anything else; he referred to personality.
Such as the type of personality that goes all claws-out psycho on a kid who's asking a legitimate question.
And even if he is talking about behavior, rather than personality: Who the hell do you think you are to judge?
HGG: You're right that some gay guys are shallow, vapid twits considerably more interested in fashion than carrying on an intelligent conversation about the world; and that some of them can be right twats when they feel their poor little feelings have been tweaked.
Some, on the other hand, are actually intelligent, pleasant people who -- lisp or swish or not -- are drop-dead sexy because they aren't flighty little himbos.
I won't advise you to hang in there and wait for college. Go get yourself involved in a youth organization now, if there are any nearby, or take advantage of web sites like adam4adam.com. You stand a chance of meeting someone, relatively soon, whose personality might be a little closer to what you're looking for.
Best of luck.
41
I remember being really turned off by swishy gay dudes when I first came out, and I really wanted to be with a guys guy. And so the first guys I seriously dated fit into that category. One was so awkward that we never moved beyond holding hands, and I think that was because we both were trying to be so macho that trying to make out with the other one would have caused the other one to call the other a sissy. The second guy I dated claimed to be bi and really put on a good show. He only really talked about women he had crushes on or had been with when we first started going out. But as time went on, I realized that he had been with ~2 girls and ~30 guys. Beyond that, the constant posturing got old really quickly, and ended up being the downfall of our relationship; if he was trying so hard to be straight, why would I want to be with him? I kinda stumbled on my third relationship, and it was with a sarcastic, Golden Girls obsessed, 'really gay' guy. And it was the closest I've ever come to being in love. He entertained me, and he did some very 'butch' things and some very flamboyant things. And it was awesome, because at the very least I knew he was being genuine. I think I used to be repulsed by the idea of flamboyant guys because I thought if I was with someone flamboyant, I'd have to change my behavior to match; I thought I'd have to change who I am to the point where I changed who I was in the opposite direction. Now when my friends call me 'straight acting' I get a little offended. I'm not straight acting: straight acting guys don't date guys. I'm acting like me. And I'll be with whoever best matches up with me. Personalities come in all varieties. You might find someone of your dreams who acts just like you, plus he constantly quotes Sophia Petrillo and is the only 26 year old you know obsessed with Cher. Just go with it.
More...
42
I'm not gay, but remember ...
High school is not the universe. The people you meet there are all confused teenagers. Believe me, if they aren't confused about sex they are confused about something else.
Do as well in school as you can, so you can go to a large university and meet all sorts of people. Don't think freshmen year at college will be all it takes - but by senior year, you'll have met lots of different people, and different types of homos. Consider a school with a chapter of a gay frat, like Delta Lambda Phi.
As long as you live you will meet different types of people. Don't give up or get frustrated!
High school is not the universe. The people you meet there are all confused teenagers. Believe me, if they aren't confused about sex they are confused about something else.
Do as well in school as you can, so you can go to a large university and meet all sorts of people. Don't think freshmen year at college will be all it takes - but by senior year, you'll have met lots of different people, and different types of homos. Consider a school with a chapter of a gay frat, like Delta Lambda Phi.
As long as you live you will meet different types of people. Don't give up or get frustrated!
43
First of all, I'm a professional musical theatre gay in NY, and I'd like to quickly say that there are plenty of gay guys even in the world of performing, fashion, and other largely gay fields who are very stereotypically straight acting (I'm not one of them, by the way - I'm pretty down the middle when it comes to mannerisms). Also, one piece of advice: While you certainly don't have to sleep with anyone you're not interested in, be friends with them anyway. Even if you never have a sexual relationship with any of them, I promise you'll find some incredible, trustworthy, and hilarious people. And there is nothing more insufferable than a gay guy who looks down on other gay guys because they're "too gay". Trust me, I used to be one.
44
Am I really out of it or am I right in seeing his pain as a sign of progress? Let me explain.....when I was his age I was more concerned with meeting ANYONE one day than I was with meeting the man of my dreams - I would have settled for Elton John rather than live a life of enforced cunnilingus. Gay kids these days expect so much more out of life than gay kids 10 or 20 years ago and rightly so!
45
HGG: Sup. I'm a gay high schooler too, I've been out for about eight months now. It came as such a shock to people that I've become a bit famous on campus for being so 'straight-acting'. No limp wrists, no rainbows, no swishy fashion deva thing going on. Totally, utterly normal. Nobody would second guess me.
Since then, I've progressed from being simply out to doing some class projects on gay-related topics: namely, stereotyping, gay civil rights, DADT, a great deal of things. It turns out to be really educational and all my peers love it. I've managed to make people rethink the way they judge others, gays in particular. My teachers are proud of the respect I manage to generate from my classmates.
There's nothing wrong with flamers. I've come to realized we all put up with the same crap together. You either are or are not gay- everything else, such as how you express it, is ultimately irrelevant. I don't express it by swishing my hips. I express it by looking for another guy that's as 'normal' (I can't even put an appropriate word there- I can't help it, too, that's my attraction) as I am and simply being in love. There's a damn wide spectrum of 'gay' and sometimes I feel like my tastes are painfully narrow, but hey, I wander into Slog and find another person like me!
Take it easy, if you can, and know that there's someone out here that knows EXACTLY what you're going through every day. If you ever want to talk or anything (I don't know your situation, if you're out or anything, etc, but I do know what you're dealing with) just drop me a line here, somehow.
Since then, I've progressed from being simply out to doing some class projects on gay-related topics: namely, stereotyping, gay civil rights, DADT, a great deal of things. It turns out to be really educational and all my peers love it. I've managed to make people rethink the way they judge others, gays in particular. My teachers are proud of the respect I manage to generate from my classmates.
There's nothing wrong with flamers. I've come to realized we all put up with the same crap together. You either are or are not gay- everything else, such as how you express it, is ultimately irrelevant. I don't express it by swishing my hips. I express it by looking for another guy that's as 'normal' (I can't even put an appropriate word there- I can't help it, too, that's my attraction) as I am and simply being in love. There's a damn wide spectrum of 'gay' and sometimes I feel like my tastes are painfully narrow, but hey, I wander into Slog and find another person like me!
Take it easy, if you can, and know that there's someone out here that knows EXACTLY what you're going through every day. If you ever want to talk or anything (I don't know your situation, if you're out or anything, etc, but I do know what you're dealing with) just drop me a line here, somehow.
47
At this point the newly-out or closeted gay male with some sort of internalized homophobia is becoming a stereotype of its own.
Not saying that this ISN'T the case here, but something about this letter reminded me of my fag-hag ways in my teens.
I was terrified of sex and relationships, but was struggling with all the hormones and desires, so I tended to "fall in love" with the completely unachievable, and therefore SAFE, no-risk boys - my fellow drama queers. All the flirting, 100% of the drama, daydreams and tears, none of the penetration. And even the occasional make-out (see also, 100% of the drama).
I wonder if some of the yearning that we see in "guys who like guys but hate gays" isn't always internalized self-hatred, but partly inexperience and insecurity, which makes "liking boys who WON'T like me back" seem like an easier choice.
It's all part and parcel of lacking self-confidence and fearing rejection, I guess (and in this case, just being a teenager).
Not saying that this ISN'T the case here, but something about this letter reminded me of my fag-hag ways in my teens.
I was terrified of sex and relationships, but was struggling with all the hormones and desires, so I tended to "fall in love" with the completely unachievable, and therefore SAFE, no-risk boys - my fellow drama queers. All the flirting, 100% of the drama, daydreams and tears, none of the penetration. And even the occasional make-out (see also, 100% of the drama).
I wonder if some of the yearning that we see in "guys who like guys but hate gays" isn't always internalized self-hatred, but partly inexperience and insecurity, which makes "liking boys who WON'T like me back" seem like an easier choice.
It's all part and parcel of lacking self-confidence and fearing rejection, I guess (and in this case, just being a teenager).
49
Wow, people are being a little harsh here. It's a high school kid, y'all. He doesn't know any better yet.
I'd second Dan's advice and point out to HGG that in his own words he's only identifying guys that seem obviously gay, or are officially out in high school, the kind of experience people don't usually choose unless they can't possibly get away with the alternative. This has benefits from a masturbation fantasy scenario standpoint, though, HGG. Just remember that at least one of the super hot "straight" guys at your school is actually gay.
Hang on till college, go somewhere fairly liberal, and cruise some slightly older guys once you're no longer jailbait. More masculine gay men will abound.
I'd second Dan's advice and point out to HGG that in his own words he's only identifying guys that seem obviously gay, or are officially out in high school, the kind of experience people don't usually choose unless they can't possibly get away with the alternative. This has benefits from a masturbation fantasy scenario standpoint, though, HGG. Just remember that at least one of the super hot "straight" guys at your school is actually gay.
Hang on till college, go somewhere fairly liberal, and cruise some slightly older guys once you're no longer jailbait. More masculine gay men will abound.
50
uh, there is NOTHING wrong to not being attracted to femme guys, (or vice-versa). You can't help what you find desirable; no one can. If you're wired to get a boner over muscley, hairy, deep voiced he-mens, you're not going to get a boner for a wispy, hairless twink. It doesn't make you a self-hating gay; it just makes you human. (and, not being attracted to people outside your race doesn't make you a racist; just don't be a stupid dick and put that prequirement in your sex ads...)
And, Dan is right...the butch, athletic stud types generally take a bit longer to emerge from their closets/cocoons, (though that seems to be changing all the time as more and more kids are feeling comfortable enough to come out at earlier and earlier ages...and not just the femme kids, either)...that's what makes college so exciting. Just make sure you go to college in a town with an active gay population (ie, bars and some gay culture) and preferably one with a diverse student population. You're probably going to have to satisfy yourself with jacking off to Joe Gage movies until you move out of the house.
And, Dan is right...the butch, athletic stud types generally take a bit longer to emerge from their closets/cocoons, (though that seems to be changing all the time as more and more kids are feeling comfortable enough to come out at earlier and earlier ages...and not just the femme kids, either)...that's what makes college so exciting. Just make sure you go to college in a town with an active gay population (ie, bars and some gay culture) and preferably one with a diverse student population. You're probably going to have to satisfy yourself with jacking off to Joe Gage movies until you move out of the house.
52
I not going to say anything, but the mom in me just wants to encourage you. You're okay kiddo. As a former teen and as a mother of a teenager I can confirm that the teenage years are rough, blue devils all to common. I had trouble meeting guys with personalities that I liked, I was a science loving/ musical loving/ dancer/ cheerleader and "macho" or "jock" acting boys didn't attract me at all. Which was for the best, because being bookish and hanging with the theater crowd made me less than popular with my fellow cheerleaders and their boyfriends. So, going off to college was such a relief for me. Hang in there, your time will come. There are many wonderful men to discover in your future. Keep your chin up. Here's a virtual mom hug.
Take care.
Take care.
53
HGG--you say you're a teenager, but don't say how old you are. There's a whole lotta difference between being a 15-year-old kid stuck in high school for three more years, and an 18 year-old-kid about to graduate, or a 19-year-old kid in college.
First of all--if you're 15 and still in high school, this is your mantra: it's only three more years; it's only three more years. That sounds like a long time now--and it will feel like a long time when you're experiencing it-- but in the course of a 75 year lifetime, it's not much more than a heartbeat. No matter what's happening now, it's only temporary.
And if you're in high school--start making plans NOW to go away to college, preferably a large one in or near a large city, where you will be able to meet lots of different gay people, on and off campus.
No matter what stage of life you're in, find different ways to meet people. You've already been given lots of advice. Find a gay softball league, or a gay hiking club, or a gay cycling club. You'll probably meet fewer effiminate gay men in those than you would in, say, a gay chorus (and note that I said you'd meet *fewer* effeminate men--not none!). If there are not explicitly gay clubs like that where you live, join the "straight" variety. Or join a gym. Gays have been known to join them before (ahem), and you might meet somebody when you least expect it.
Don't apologize for the kind of person you want to date. People have their types. You're looking for someone more masculine. That's not a crime.
But--like a lot of people have said--don't dismiss the effeminate gay people out of hand. Ask yourself why you find them so distasteful, and be honest with yourself. Is it because society says gay=effeminate=sick? That's utterly untrue, and the fact that you find the fems so offensive may be an indication that you've accepted the lie. There's a big difference between preferring the butcher guys and hating feminine ones. The hatred (or disgust, or distaste) is a signal flag.
Take care. I survived a high school that was extremely homophobic, but I got out, and went on to be one of the founding members of my college's first gay student's organization (and this was in the 70's). Now I've got the man of my dreams, and life couldn't be better.
More...
First of all--if you're 15 and still in high school, this is your mantra: it's only three more years; it's only three more years. That sounds like a long time now--and it will feel like a long time when you're experiencing it-- but in the course of a 75 year lifetime, it's not much more than a heartbeat. No matter what's happening now, it's only temporary.
And if you're in high school--start making plans NOW to go away to college, preferably a large one in or near a large city, where you will be able to meet lots of different gay people, on and off campus.
No matter what stage of life you're in, find different ways to meet people. You've already been given lots of advice. Find a gay softball league, or a gay hiking club, or a gay cycling club. You'll probably meet fewer effiminate gay men in those than you would in, say, a gay chorus (and note that I said you'd meet *fewer* effeminate men--not none!). If there are not explicitly gay clubs like that where you live, join the "straight" variety. Or join a gym. Gays have been known to join them before (ahem), and you might meet somebody when you least expect it.
Don't apologize for the kind of person you want to date. People have their types. You're looking for someone more masculine. That's not a crime.
But--like a lot of people have said--don't dismiss the effeminate gay people out of hand. Ask yourself why you find them so distasteful, and be honest with yourself. Is it because society says gay=effeminate=sick? That's utterly untrue, and the fact that you find the fems so offensive may be an indication that you've accepted the lie. There's a big difference between preferring the butcher guys and hating feminine ones. The hatred (or disgust, or distaste) is a signal flag.
Take care. I survived a high school that was extremely homophobic, but I got out, and went on to be one of the founding members of my college's first gay student's organization (and this was in the 70's). Now I've got the man of my dreams, and life couldn't be better.
54
Well, I guess this is progress in a way. At least now we have gay kids writing to advice columnists obsessing about typical boring teenager stuff like not being able to find a boyfriend rather than contemplating suicide because they're gay. Dan could've given this kid a bit more of a spanking regarding his internalized homophobia, but all in all, meh. He'll grow up, meet more people, find someone he likes, and stop having to cry himself to sleep.
55
As for this "loving guys but hating gays" thing, in my experience it's largely due to discomfort and fear of association.
I've thought about this to a fair extent: In high school, NOBODY WANTS TO BE GAY. Gay is an insult, second only to fag. If you come out as gay, you become the gay kid. You aren't yourself anymore. You get associated with the very out, very public flamers. I've had a few guys come out to me in private ever since my own very public outing, given my 'normalcy', and each of them echo this fear: if they come out, people will start treating them differently.
They all come from different backgrounds, but a lot of them are insecure about being pinned as feminine even though they aren't in the slightest. One comes from a family that has a deep military tradition in all the men; it's a really hyper-masculine environment. It's a tradition he's going to be following, too, despite DADT. It took him awhile to acknowledge that 'soldier' and 'gay' could be the same thing.
It's just totally incongruous to them: gay is not 'I love men' anymore, it becomes the whole culture that they simply aren't comfortable with or ready to take part in. They can't go near it- what will people think of them?
Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm a bit dazed coming home from school to find a letter and topics I can really closely relate to.
I've thought about this to a fair extent: In high school, NOBODY WANTS TO BE GAY. Gay is an insult, second only to fag. If you come out as gay, you become the gay kid. You aren't yourself anymore. You get associated with the very out, very public flamers. I've had a few guys come out to me in private ever since my own very public outing, given my 'normalcy', and each of them echo this fear: if they come out, people will start treating them differently.
They all come from different backgrounds, but a lot of them are insecure about being pinned as feminine even though they aren't in the slightest. One comes from a family that has a deep military tradition in all the men; it's a really hyper-masculine environment. It's a tradition he's going to be following, too, despite DADT. It took him awhile to acknowledge that 'soldier' and 'gay' could be the same thing.
It's just totally incongruous to them: gay is not 'I love men' anymore, it becomes the whole culture that they simply aren't comfortable with or ready to take part in. They can't go near it- what will people think of them?
Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm a bit dazed coming home from school to find a letter and topics I can really closely relate to.
57
@32 It's guys like you that makes me sometimes wish I had the equipment that turns you on. You are one sweet straight guy!
58
Kid, once you start going to neighborhood gay bars, you'll see that most gay men are just regular guys. (Corollary - a lot of "gay-acting" men are, in fact, straight.)
Consider this: there are over 60,000 active-duty homos in the US military. I like Army, personally, though I have friends who prefer to cruise the Marines.
Consider this: there are over 60,000 active-duty homos in the US military. I like Army, personally, though I have friends who prefer to cruise the Marines.
59
I'm in high school, I'm a girl, I'm straight, but I do know some out gay guys. Sure, they're mostly stereotypical, but I'm good friends with a gay guy who's definitely not of them. He tells me there are two types of gays: stereotypical fags and the ones who make fun of 'em.
62
You're young, insecure, and a little dumb, kiddo. I know because I thought exactly the same way you did when I was your age. It takes a couple years of other people getting what they want while you cry yourself to sleep, but eventually you are going to have a "come to gay" moment and realize that it's okay if a guy is a little nelly if he has a cute face, a kind soul, and a mouth like a hoover. It's just how it works. And when this happens, your going to be surprised by just how gay you are too!
63
My husband was pretty stereotypically gay when we first met, but that was only a few years after he graduated from high school. He had grown up in a small rural city, and there weren't a lot of men in the whole town out of the closet and the first few he met - the only gay role models he had for a year or two - were stereotypical flaming, bitchy queens. He just thought that's how gay guys were supposed to act, and so that's how he acted. Until he met me. The first year or two he was pretty skeptical because I didn't fit the stereotypes. "Are you sure you're gay?" he'd ask.
My response, to him and to HGG: Being gay doesn't mean you act in a certain way. A number of sociological/societal factors have resulted in many gays adopting a flmaboyant, effeminate style or personality. Maybe at one time that was the only way to recognize people like us. Now it's not and gay people are free to act however they like. I personally think that being attracted to other men has nothing to do with how one acts or how masculine one is. On the other hand, if you want to act effeminate, that's okay. It's a valid personal style choice.
But we like what we like. I think people should be flexible in their dating horizons, but people also need to stop being offended that everyone isn't into them.
My husband is a lot less "gay-acting" now. But it doesn't really matter to me. I love him when he's framing a wall in jeans and a sweaty tshirt, hammering away; and I love him when he's singing Cher at the top of his amazing voice while dancing a pirouette through our living room.
My only other advice, HGG, is not to focus entirely on sex yet. How about on dating? Holding hands, mutual crushes, romance and awkward expressions of first like. The sex will come. Your a teenage guy and if you find another teenage guy you like it'll come crashing like a tsunami against a paper wall. But you might as well get your first relationship mistakes over now. gay youth are still socially/developmentally a couple of years behind straight kids because we don't get to start as early, usually. Let yourself learn how to date nad be with another person rather than just sex them up.
More...
My response, to him and to HGG: Being gay doesn't mean you act in a certain way. A number of sociological/societal factors have resulted in many gays adopting a flmaboyant, effeminate style or personality. Maybe at one time that was the only way to recognize people like us. Now it's not and gay people are free to act however they like. I personally think that being attracted to other men has nothing to do with how one acts or how masculine one is. On the other hand, if you want to act effeminate, that's okay. It's a valid personal style choice.
But we like what we like. I think people should be flexible in their dating horizons, but people also need to stop being offended that everyone isn't into them.
My husband is a lot less "gay-acting" now. But it doesn't really matter to me. I love him when he's framing a wall in jeans and a sweaty tshirt, hammering away; and I love him when he's singing Cher at the top of his amazing voice while dancing a pirouette through our living room.
My only other advice, HGG, is not to focus entirely on sex yet. How about on dating? Holding hands, mutual crushes, romance and awkward expressions of first like. The sex will come. Your a teenage guy and if you find another teenage guy you like it'll come crashing like a tsunami against a paper wall. But you might as well get your first relationship mistakes over now. gay youth are still socially/developmentally a couple of years behind straight kids because we don't get to start as early, usually. Let yourself learn how to date nad be with another person rather than just sex them up.
64
i'm not sure, from the letter at least, if this teen is out, but i'm hoping that he is. and i'm hoping he's developing friendships as an out person. dating is important, sex is fun but friendship is THE most important skill you'll learn in your young life. remember and quote me often on this, friendship is not a consolation prize for not being able to get anything or anyone else, it's the foundation that leads you into the most meaningful relationships you'll have. be friends with some flamers, you'll learn important life skills from them ( not limited to how to deal with the homophobia within and around you. you're straight guys ? be friends with some of them and discover that straight isn't as narrow as it can seem. and in befriending many across the spectrum ( don't forget girls, ladies, and trannies) you'll be that much closer to getting to what you want.
oh and college ( unless you go to bible school ) really is much much easier to find a playmate,lover, and friend.
oh and college ( unless you go to bible school ) really is much much easier to find a playmate,lover, and friend.
65
A lot of bullshit stereotyping going on here. Look, just because a gay guy is more on the masculine side doesn't mean he's trying to hide his gayness. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, THAT'S JUST THE WAY THEY (WE) ARE???
HGG, check out any gay athletic groups in a city near you. Try a gay hiking group. The makeup of groups like this seem to skew more towards the masculine gay guy. Like Dan says, hang in there, it gets better.
HGG, check out any gay athletic groups in a city near you. Try a gay hiking group. The makeup of groups like this seem to skew more towards the masculine gay guy. Like Dan says, hang in there, it gets better.
66
Wait, okay, wait. so uh, you're in high school, and you haven't met someone you're interested in who is interested in you? Welcome to the jungle, kiddo. It'll happen, sooner or later. Advocate for yourself, sexually, emotionally, etc--but don't be *too* picky, either. Best of luck!
68
@61 Gay isn't a club and we're not all required to like each other. Bitching at this kid for being a self-hating fag because he doesn't like hanging out/fucking queeny gays is like yelling at a straight, raised by hipsters, liberal Seattle teenager into emo girls with dark hair and attitude because he isn't interested in hanging out/fucking the rightwing, Christian fundamentalist blonde chick with the big rack who just transferred into his high school...they have nothing in common and he's not attracted to her...doesn't make HIM a bad person.
Also, calling someone a self-hating gay because they don't like effeminate/queeny men is in itself a homophobic thing to say...you're implying that you believe that effeminate/queeny gay men are the NORM for gay male society and to hate the "norm" is to hate gay lifestyle in general. It's bullshit. Bravo for the queeny queers for being the first ones out of the closet but that doesn't make them the spokesperson for the Big Gay Club. We come in all shapes, sizes, colors and flavors and we should respect those differences and embrace them, but that doesn't mean I have to fuck them or have them over to my house for brunch.
Also, calling someone a self-hating gay because they don't like effeminate/queeny men is in itself a homophobic thing to say...you're implying that you believe that effeminate/queeny gay men are the NORM for gay male society and to hate the "norm" is to hate gay lifestyle in general. It's bullshit. Bravo for the queeny queers for being the first ones out of the closet but that doesn't make them the spokesperson for the Big Gay Club. We come in all shapes, sizes, colors and flavors and we should respect those differences and embrace them, but that doesn't mean I have to fuck them or have them over to my house for brunch.
69
William Burroughs wrote about his personal distaste for lisping, mincing, effeminate gays--try reading his essays or diaries, they're full of humor and venom on the subject.
As others have written, gay men--hell, people in general--tend to discover who they are after a few years of being out there as adults. There are certainly plenty of gay men who aren't budding Liberaces, and you'll certainly find them. It's not a choice between two extremes; There's a LOT of range inbetween Johnny Weir and John Wayne.
As others have written, gay men--hell, people in general--tend to discover who they are after a few years of being out there as adults. There are certainly plenty of gay men who aren't budding Liberaces, and you'll certainly find them. It's not a choice between two extremes; There's a LOT of range inbetween Johnny Weir and John Wayne.
70
I feel like we shouldn't do this without giving some advice to the young fem boys who often face ridicule from other gays. So if you are a young, girly boy reading this, here is some advice from a gay who also took a couple years to man up...
Gurl, most of those bitches making fun of you are just giant bottoms! Stand up for yourself, snap your very best snap and tell him if he doesn't stop putting you down he's not getting fucked tonight!
Gurl, most of those bitches making fun of you are just giant bottoms! Stand up for yourself, snap your very best snap and tell him if he doesn't stop putting you down he's not getting fucked tonight!
71
PsycoLoco @ 32,
You made me laugh. So, thank you.
You sound pretty wonderful to me, too. (Congrats to the wife.) I hate shopping (except for guitars and whiskey), especially going to the mall. Not really a fan of perfume either.
You're spot on. Relationships require compromise. Indeed they do.
Thanks again for the smile.
You made me laugh. So, thank you.
You sound pretty wonderful to me, too. (Congrats to the wife.) I hate shopping (except for guitars and whiskey), especially going to the mall. Not really a fan of perfume either.
You're spot on. Relationships require compromise. Indeed they do.
Thanks again for the smile.
72
HGG is apparently normal -- most teens don't catch subtlty well. To be expected.
Dan's answer makes sense.
I wish I could get my roommate to acknowledge this shit at his advanced age of 33 yrs old. Buys me flowers, sings me songs in his underwear, owns a copy of Brokeback Mountain (!), loves Madonna, George Michaels, etc and says women are too tedious for words. His mom's gay. His brother's gay.
Like HGG, roomie thinks "gay" means only what stereotypes have presented him and he ain't THAT.
There's more --- much more waiting for you HGG.
Dan's answer makes sense.
I wish I could get my roommate to acknowledge this shit at his advanced age of 33 yrs old. Buys me flowers, sings me songs in his underwear, owns a copy of Brokeback Mountain (!), loves Madonna, George Michaels, etc and says women are too tedious for words. His mom's gay. His brother's gay.
Like HGG, roomie thinks "gay" means only what stereotypes have presented him and he ain't THAT.
There's more --- much more waiting for you HGG.
73
@69 This reminds me of a column Corvino wrote over at 365gay, telling of his interaction with a nun concerning how immature he was being, at age 20 or so, being so nervous about going on a date with another man.
If I remember it right, the sister told him he had every right to be immature- he was only fully, truly, actually realized as a gay man for maybe a year or two up to that point. We've got a separate age measured in 'gay years', an inevitability given the current situation in society. So, right now, I'm probably 8 months old. Barely even a toddler. I learn a lot about myself. Hell, the ONLY guy I have come to feel a brief, wild hormonal desire for was actually a flamer in mannerisms and voice. I don't know what it was about his voice- it sent tingles down my spine.
If I remember it right, the sister told him he had every right to be immature- he was only fully, truly, actually realized as a gay man for maybe a year or two up to that point. We've got a separate age measured in 'gay years', an inevitability given the current situation in society. So, right now, I'm probably 8 months old. Barely even a toddler. I learn a lot about myself. Hell, the ONLY guy I have come to feel a brief, wild hormonal desire for was actually a flamer in mannerisms and voice. I don't know what it was about his voice- it sent tingles down my spine.
74
Most of my gay friends are no more swishy than me (a straight guy), and I'm not swishy at all.
That said, swishy gay men make this world a shinier, happier, more fabulous place, and they deserve all of our thanks for that.
That said, swishy gay men make this world a shinier, happier, more fabulous place, and they deserve all of our thanks for that.
75
HGG: Relax. There're all kinds of (gay) people in the world, but in general, the more narrow your tastes, the more you have to put yourself out there. You'll see this pay off for you when you're more independent and no longer stuck in teen hell!
76
As a gay teenager (with similar taste) who is nearing the conclusion of his high school years, I can attest to the accuracy of Dan's advice. When I first came out, as a sophomore, I knew quite a few other out guys, and every single one of them was painfully, flamboyantly effeminate. I assumed I was going to have to get used to that kind of personality if I was ever going to get anywhere romantically. I even buckled down and started dating the most "straight-acting" guy I could find (who was still a total theater queen).
Needless to say, I was completely wrong, and Dan is completely right. I think a huge contributing factor to the general effeminacy of out teens, along with Dan's point, is that many of the "manly" ones are involved in sports, where there is more homophobia and locker-room awkwardness than they would otherwise encounter. So they often stay closeted until very late in the game (i.e. college).
Case(s) in point: a full third of my water polo teammates who graduated last year are now "exploring their sexuality" as college freshmen. The most stereotypically straight guy I've ever met (absolutely huge/buff, full beard, etc.), who I lusted after for several years, came out between his freshman and sophomore years of college. Hell, I'm not exactly a lumberjack myself, but I'm captain of my swim team and I can bench more than any of our football players. There ARE "straight-acting" gay guys out there, HGG. Plenty of them. You just need to be patient.
(Side note: Even if you don't find "that personality" sexually appealing, at least be nice. A lot of those painfully effeminate guys who I couldn't imagine dating have turned out to be pretty good friends.)
Needless to say, I was completely wrong, and Dan is completely right. I think a huge contributing factor to the general effeminacy of out teens, along with Dan's point, is that many of the "manly" ones are involved in sports, where there is more homophobia and locker-room awkwardness than they would otherwise encounter. So they often stay closeted until very late in the game (i.e. college).
Case(s) in point: a full third of my water polo teammates who graduated last year are now "exploring their sexuality" as college freshmen. The most stereotypically straight guy I've ever met (absolutely huge/buff, full beard, etc.), who I lusted after for several years, came out between his freshman and sophomore years of college. Hell, I'm not exactly a lumberjack myself, but I'm captain of my swim team and I can bench more than any of our football players. There ARE "straight-acting" gay guys out there, HGG. Plenty of them. You just need to be patient.
(Side note: Even if you don't find "that personality" sexually appealing, at least be nice. A lot of those painfully effeminate guys who I couldn't imagine dating have turned out to be pretty good friends.)
77
I'm also attracted to guys who don't fit the gay stereotype (not that there's anything wrong with that characteristic set). I found that there's a lot of guys out there who you would never think were gay unless they told you and I eventually found one to settle down with. Keep your hopes up HGG, there's someone out there for you too.
78
Somehow I manage to be gay and not whine nor cry myself to sleep at night. Maybe if he stopped throwing himself a queeny pity party and butched up a little he'd probably land his dreamy, straight acting catch (whatever "straight acting" means).
Eh, in the end I think there are more deserving candidates of our pity.
Eh, in the end I think there are more deserving candidates of our pity.
79
Ahh, the swim team and water polo. The captain of our swim team had slept with all of the water polo team, most of the swim team and several football players by the time he'd graduated.
JROTC and French were seriously bad choices on my part.
JROTC and French were seriously bad choices on my part.
80
@74.. damn right..and thanks to ALL the shiny, swishy, fabulous, happy, gay men who made my life better and better to live...
and you too adrian..(@28)
and you too adrian..(@28)
84
God, there is nothing worse than whiny teenage angst, no matter what the orientation.
Go ahead and cry yourself to sleep, ya big nancy. Write back when you're thirty.
Go ahead and cry yourself to sleep, ya big nancy. Write back when you're thirty.
85
I love how all the people who are like "oh you fags are being too judgmental, that's why this high school student doesn't like your fag faggotyness, fag" would be all "oh you go girl" if Dan was the one saying it.
Being in high school is a reason to be naive and judgmental, but it's not a full excuse. You're old enough by the time you're in high school, especially if you're self-aware enough to come out to yourself, to be past needing help to realize that stereotypes aren't universal. A straight guy asking if all straight girls were like the ones he met in high school wouldn't get ANY apologies from the peanut gallery, ditto someone asking about black dudes or Asian girls. Just because you think you're above "those gays" doesn't mean it's any less bigoted to preach about it.
Being in high school is a reason to be naive and judgmental, but it's not a full excuse. You're old enough by the time you're in high school, especially if you're self-aware enough to come out to yourself, to be past needing help to realize that stereotypes aren't universal. A straight guy asking if all straight girls were like the ones he met in high school wouldn't get ANY apologies from the peanut gallery, ditto someone asking about black dudes or Asian girls. Just because you think you're above "those gays" doesn't mean it's any less bigoted to preach about it.
87
@81 what's wrong with lesbians in sex ed? I slept through the STD (remember when we called them that? lol) lectures, tasted all the lubes, and entertained myself by putting a condom on my hand and stretching it out to my elbow... such important life skills!
88
@87: Oh, I figured y'all were bored, but I guess you managed.
Of course, where I'm from, 99% of the sex ed classes consist of the football coach standing in front of the class pointing at a picture of a vagina going "THIS FOR BABY" then pointing to a girl in the class and saying "YOU COOK, MAKE BABY".
Thankfully, my sex ed teacher was a waterskiing lesbian with 2 kids and a shotput champion girlfriend who wasn't above making us scream out the names of the body parts at the start of class to keep us from giggling throughout.
Of course, where I'm from, 99% of the sex ed classes consist of the football coach standing in front of the class pointing at a picture of a vagina going "THIS FOR BABY" then pointing to a girl in the class and saying "YOU COOK, MAKE BABY".
Thankfully, my sex ed teacher was a waterskiing lesbian with 2 kids and a shotput champion girlfriend who wasn't above making us scream out the names of the body parts at the start of class to keep us from giggling throughout.
89
@88 hehe, wanna trade sex ed teachers? Mine was this elderly lady complete with that old person smell. The only useful thing I learned was you can indeed pierce anything, and that was thanks to google, not grandma.
90
One other thing, if this kid is still reading:
In high school, I had a huge crush on this guy. He was a jock, a total surfer god, and all the girls wanted him. Total stud of the school.
About 2 years after high school, he came out. Nobody ever would have thought that he was gay.
So some of those straight guys you're lusting after might not actually be straight.
In high school, I had a huge crush on this guy. He was a jock, a total surfer god, and all the girls wanted him. Total stud of the school.
About 2 years after high school, he came out. Nobody ever would have thought that he was gay.
So some of those straight guys you're lusting after might not actually be straight.
91
@90
I agree... when I was in high school I used to complain that I never met any gay girls at all, when it turns out that I just wasn't paying enough attention and was overlooking the ones who were simply just not screaming it. I bet the LW suffers a bit from this too, I simply hadn't met enough queer folks yet to really be any good at recognizing them, talk about a catch 22.
I agree... when I was in high school I used to complain that I never met any gay girls at all, when it turns out that I just wasn't paying enough attention and was overlooking the ones who were simply just not screaming it. I bet the LW suffers a bit from this too, I simply hadn't met enough queer folks yet to really be any good at recognizing them, talk about a catch 22.
92
Considering his contempt for his fellow gays, lets all just hope he doesn't grow up to be another Roy Ashburn.
93
The kid is spot on.
The problem with gay guys is that they're faggots.
Someone needs to come up with a work-around to address that.
The problem with gay guys is that they're faggots.
Someone needs to come up with a work-around to address that.
94
I think Dan's advice is spot on, and I only have a little suggestion to add:
Hang in there, and in the mean time, keep an open eye and an open mind… and develop friendships with dykes.
Because… um… dykes are awesome?
Hang in there, and in the mean time, keep an open eye and an open mind… and develop friendships with dykes.
Because… um… dykes are awesome?
96
Although I haven't seen it yet - there's a documentary called "The Butch Factor" which is about the different ranges of gay masculinity. I spotted it in the New Releases at Scarecrow the other day.
http://www.thebutchfactor.com/7-09_Butch…
http://www.thebutchfactor.com/7-09_Butch…
97
@88: Baconcat, at our invertebrate school, they wouldn't even have a teacher explain sex ed. I doubt our ISD permitted it.
Instead, they — that being our two phys. ed. teachers, both in retrospect so clearly dykesville when no one dared speak thy name — would pull out a b/w film reel from the 1950s (this was in the 1980s, mind) and show obviously different ones for the girls and the boys.
All I know is I was sick the day that our class got indoctrinated. It's only memorable vicariously because of all the ruckus the following Monday about someone swapping the reels in some prank and never getting caught.
Instead, they — that being our two phys. ed. teachers, both in retrospect so clearly dykesville when no one dared speak thy name — would pull out a b/w film reel from the 1950s (this was in the 1980s, mind) and show obviously different ones for the girls and the boys.
All I know is I was sick the day that our class got indoctrinated. It's only memorable vicariously because of all the ruckus the following Monday about someone swapping the reels in some prank and never getting caught.
98
@94: Dykes are awesome!*
* except for the psychotic ones that stalk you long after you've broken it off and given back the ring, the books, and her favourite hoodie she let you wear while you were still dating.
* except for the psychotic ones that stalk you long after you've broken it off and given back the ring, the books, and her favourite hoodie she let you wear while you were still dating.
100
Dan skipped his usual advice for high school angsty gay boys, and I think it's an important point to make to the young-uns: When you're done with high school, get to a city. The bigger the better. Your pickings in your hometown may be slim -- that's just demographics; gays are a minority percentage. Increase your odds (and the range and diversity of personalities you'll meet) by going to the cities where you'll find a bigger community.
101
Wow. Reading this comments thread makes me never want to read another Slog comment thread again ever. Kudos @40. Spot on.
102
@ 70 & 74 & 80 & ... love love LOVE YOU
I'm totally, utterly and fabulously attracted to uber creative, imaginative, remarkable and fabulous boyzzz – and don't forget that you NEVER get bored with drama queens.
Unfortunately I'm het (not that there's anything wrong with it) - but I can pass :)
I can't imagine what a dreary place this world would be without the faaaaabulous people.
Bzzzzz gros bisous from france
I'm totally, utterly and fabulously attracted to uber creative, imaginative, remarkable and fabulous boyzzz – and don't forget that you NEVER get bored with drama queens.
Unfortunately I'm het (not that there's anything wrong with it) - but I can pass :)
I can't imagine what a dreary place this world would be without the faaaaabulous people.
Bzzzzz gros bisous from france
103
@2 got it right, and every teenager should be required to hear this advice daily:
"Teenage years are hell. Hang in there. It gets so much better."
"Teenage years are hell. Hang in there. It gets so much better."
104
It was when I started bartending in late night dives in the late 80's that I became acquainted with the gay community- I never even knew one existed before. I first met some guys who were effeminate. I also met some drag queens- these were all female impersonators who happened to be gay. Then I just started meeting guys. They were just guys who happened to be romantically attracted to other men. These included pro and college football players, businessmen, lawyers, doctors, (former) policemen, construction workers, dorks, geeks, Evangelical ministers and just guys. These guys were attracted to other guys. Many of them were not attracted to effeminate men, they liked other guys. And the funny thing was, that the majority of the gay guys I met were not effeminate.
One place I worked had a jukebox with country music, rock music, and yes Patsy Cline and some dance tunes. Guys used to complain about no hard rock, metal, blues.... Not all the guys were twinking out at the disco.
I hope the letter writer can understand that being a teenager sucks at times, and there are hormones and angst and strong feelings going on. Just chill. Be yourself, enjoy your life doing what you enjoy. Don't spend your time looking for a guy, spend your time enjoying your life, getting educated and preparing for will probably be a very exciting life. You will meet guys who are not effeminate. Maybe not in high school, but on down the road. Don't make it a big deal. It really isn't.
(All that being said, I did meet more hairdressers and florists during that time of my life as well. I don't think I paid for a haircut for at least 2 years!)
One place I worked had a jukebox with country music, rock music, and yes Patsy Cline and some dance tunes. Guys used to complain about no hard rock, metal, blues.... Not all the guys were twinking out at the disco.
I hope the letter writer can understand that being a teenager sucks at times, and there are hormones and angst and strong feelings going on. Just chill. Be yourself, enjoy your life doing what you enjoy. Don't spend your time looking for a guy, spend your time enjoying your life, getting educated and preparing for will probably be a very exciting life. You will meet guys who are not effeminate. Maybe not in high school, but on down the road. Don't make it a big deal. It really isn't.
(All that being said, I did meet more hairdressers and florists during that time of my life as well. I don't think I paid for a haircut for at least 2 years!)
105
FWIW, I'm a hetero female who is only interested in effeminate straight men. And, since I was able to find the man of my dreams, I have little doubt you will be able to, as well. Just because you aren't tripping over "your type" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So don't lose hope.
106
@105,
Damn, where can I find the you that hasn't become attached yet? Having to convince a girl on a first date that you aren't gay is rarely a good sign for the rest of the night.
Damn, where can I find the you that hasn't become attached yet? Having to convince a girl on a first date that you aren't gay is rarely a good sign for the rest of the night.
107
What does he mean by "personality"? He does know that everyone has a different personality, right? I think he didn't mean personality, he mean looks and mannerisms.
Teenagers are silly.
Teenagers are silly.
109
When I first came out, I too was turned off by the fabulous outness of flamboyant gay men. Now I've come to realize that they just frightened me and it was my own inner homophobia I was reacting to. I quickly came to appreciate these men. Because I think it is these men - the ones who "can't hide" - that paved the way for all of us to come out. I love my sissy brothers.
111
@106 -
As is my answer for nearly everything else, "On the internets!" That's where I met my husband. :)
As is my answer for nearly everything else, "On the internets!" That's where I met my husband. :)
112
Agree with Dan's (and the majority's) opinion here. Just want to point out that those guys you're not attracted to are brave souls. It's still hard to be an out teenager. You don't have to fuck them (you'll have LOTS of time to fuck people later), but try getting to know some of those swishy guys. They're awesome. And swish isn't contagious.
Yeah, you've only been attracted to straight guys, but that's partly because something like 95% of guys are straight. Now, 98% THINK they are at your age. There's nothing wrong with hoping the object of your affection is in that 3% gray zone (hell, those are the guys I like to date), but those three-percenters -- the actual bi guys -- are still most likely to marry girls someday. Just keep that in mind.
Yeah, you've only been attracted to straight guys, but that's partly because something like 95% of guys are straight. Now, 98% THINK they are at your age. There's nothing wrong with hoping the object of your affection is in that 3% gray zone (hell, those are the guys I like to date), but those three-percenters -- the actual bi guys -- are still most likely to marry girls someday. Just keep that in mind.
113
I live in a super gay city, and the visible majority of gays are swishy and cliquey, which I find boring and unattractive. It has taken years to find a small coterie of quality friends who're gay, let alone find gay men to date. I always assumed this was more my fault for being "bad at being gay". The same as slow cooking for a fine dinner, quality friends come slowly but surely. Hang in there, and enjoy the trip. In a world that isn't gay ghettoized, that it sounds like you're leading, you'll find far more interesting people, options and eventually gay men.
(Coda, I just realised how gay I was for including the word coterie and the notion of slow cooking, end coda). Ho hum.
(Coda, I just realised how gay I was for including the word coterie and the notion of slow cooking, end coda). Ho hum.
114
WHAT?
I Can't believe most of these comments.
He doesn't find the flamboyant personality attractive.
That's not repression, that's preference.
Listen to me, scared young thangs. I have about 8 close gay friends between the ages of 20 to 35. three of them are flamboyant sparkly, musical loving guys and speak with promenent lisps. the other five are as you say 'straight acting'. As in, their personalities don't lend themselves to feather boas and hotpants. two love hockey, and have beards. The others seem like 'average straight guys' but they're gay, and have relationships with men. This isn't self hate, it's just who they are.
Not all gay guys conform to this stereotype. And that's what it is, a stereotype. It's just that the ones that do conform are easier to spot. Calm down, you'll find your guy. <3
I Can't believe most of these comments.
He doesn't find the flamboyant personality attractive.
That's not repression, that's preference.
Listen to me, scared young thangs. I have about 8 close gay friends between the ages of 20 to 35. three of them are flamboyant sparkly, musical loving guys and speak with promenent lisps. the other five are as you say 'straight acting'. As in, their personalities don't lend themselves to feather boas and hotpants. two love hockey, and have beards. The others seem like 'average straight guys' but they're gay, and have relationships with men. This isn't self hate, it's just who they are.
Not all gay guys conform to this stereotype. And that's what it is, a stereotype. It's just that the ones that do conform are easier to spot. Calm down, you'll find your guy. <3
115
Oh, just wait it out.
Nobody has an attractive personality in high school. Nobody. Straight girls (like me) wait dreaming of boys who aren't immature teenagers. Straight boys are waiting for girls not to be stupid and fucking crazy with hormones.
That said, I remember there was a lot of pressure that if you were gay in high school you had to be GAY(TM). Swishy, wear girls' clothes, participate in theater, do a lot of drugs. You know what that means? Everybody else is closeted. You are not the only gay dude in the world who isn't a Zac Efron caricature. Did you think you were singular?
I know it seems like that at the time. I had a friend who would complain, because he was an intense future-scientist type, and to be gay it seemed like you had to join a flurry of druggie debauchery. Well, if you wait a few years, you'll find that there are other gay scientists. Gay nerds, even. There are nine million of you, give or take. There's diversity.
Being single in high school is no great loss and has no correlation with your future romantic success. You may as well just wait and dream.
Nobody has an attractive personality in high school. Nobody. Straight girls (like me) wait dreaming of boys who aren't immature teenagers. Straight boys are waiting for girls not to be stupid and fucking crazy with hormones.
That said, I remember there was a lot of pressure that if you were gay in high school you had to be GAY(TM). Swishy, wear girls' clothes, participate in theater, do a lot of drugs. You know what that means? Everybody else is closeted. You are not the only gay dude in the world who isn't a Zac Efron caricature. Did you think you were singular?
I know it seems like that at the time. I had a friend who would complain, because he was an intense future-scientist type, and to be gay it seemed like you had to join a flurry of druggie debauchery. Well, if you wait a few years, you'll find that there are other gay scientists. Gay nerds, even. There are nine million of you, give or take. There's diversity.
Being single in high school is no great loss and has no correlation with your future romantic success. You may as well just wait and dream.
116
I felt like this guy when I was his age. I was lonely and loveless in my teen/early 20s years because I hated gay culture and was really invested in "not being like THAT". I eventually grew up and got over my internalized homophobia after I met some awesome guys who were fun, sexy, smart, etc. and also happened to have stereotypically gay mannerisms. I also met my share of "straight-acting" gay guys who were pretty boring. I didn't feel like I found my gay niche until I was in my mid-20s, but if you're not shy and weird like me you'll surely find yours earlier than that.
Plenty of commenters here have already offered good advice, so I'll just echo the ones who said: hang in there, it will get better; don't turn into an annoying judgmental prick fag; put yourself out there (be out and the under-the-radar gays will find you; join a sports team or whatever); make friends with gay guys even if you're not attracted to them (sometimes you'll even have to pretend to be friends with gay guys you don't like, as a social stepping stone to meeting guys you will like); move to a big city where you have more options.
Plenty of commenters here have already offered good advice, so I'll just echo the ones who said: hang in there, it will get better; don't turn into an annoying judgmental prick fag; put yourself out there (be out and the under-the-radar gays will find you; join a sports team or whatever); make friends with gay guys even if you're not attracted to them (sometimes you'll even have to pretend to be friends with gay guys you don't like, as a social stepping stone to meeting guys you will like); move to a big city where you have more options.
117
Yes, #113 - With your use of "coterie" and "slow cooking" you sound just like the swishy gays you find boring and unattractive.
Well, I find gays like you (those that are hypocritical) to be boring and unattractive. Welcome to "your" world.
Well, I find gays like you (those that are hypocritical) to be boring and unattractive. Welcome to "your" world.
118
I'm gay and I also dislike faggy gays, they are a complete turn off in every way, I can't even imagine being sexual with faggy gays.
I think the best solution for you is to go online and find normal gays like you and me, we are a majority after all.
I think the best solution for you is to go online and find normal gays like you and me, we are a majority after all.
119
I can completely relate to this kid. I felt the same way. The responses above to the effect that "there's nothing wrong with being fem" and "who knows what straight-acting really means" are dishonest and useless to the kid. Everyone knows what straight-acting means and everyone who is gay knows what this kid is talking about when he says he is not into the gay personality type.
So what to do? First, recognize that as you move up in age, you will encounter an increasing number of normal gays. (And if y'all don't like that term, too bad.) The really weird and outlandish ones come out early b/c they have no choice. The others come out later.
Second, don't try to latch onto a straight guy. It won't work and no amount of desire will make it work. It wouldn't work if a girl attached herself to you and demanded that you be her bf it won't work with you and a straight guy.
Third, do consider bisexuals. Bi guys are much more likely to be of the personality type you like. They rock.
Fourth, try not to be too rigid with other gays. If you go in with a big "reject" stamp in your head, then you will wind up rejecting some people who might have been good for you. Instead of stamping "reject" on prospects the minute they fail to meet one of your criteria, instead just mark them a "maybe". Keep an open mind and give them a chance before you come to a final conclusion. You would want the same consideration yourself. You might be surprised to find that out of twenty "rejects," there was one who works for you. And it only takes one.
So what to do? First, recognize that as you move up in age, you will encounter an increasing number of normal gays. (And if y'all don't like that term, too bad.) The really weird and outlandish ones come out early b/c they have no choice. The others come out later.
Second, don't try to latch onto a straight guy. It won't work and no amount of desire will make it work. It wouldn't work if a girl attached herself to you and demanded that you be her bf it won't work with you and a straight guy.
Third, do consider bisexuals. Bi guys are much more likely to be of the personality type you like. They rock.
Fourth, try not to be too rigid with other gays. If you go in with a big "reject" stamp in your head, then you will wind up rejecting some people who might have been good for you. Instead of stamping "reject" on prospects the minute they fail to meet one of your criteria, instead just mark them a "maybe". Keep an open mind and give them a chance before you come to a final conclusion. You would want the same consideration yourself. You might be surprised to find that out of twenty "rejects," there was one who works for you. And it only takes one.
120
The problem is, gays like you and me are hard to identify in normal life. Many aren't into the gay scene, and won't go out to gay bars because - how's this for a self-enforcing rule - only effeminate guys hang out there.
So, you'll have to meet long term partners through friends, through your university (when you get there - or even beforehand, it's not like you can't go hang out at the uni bar... assuming that yours is like mine and they don't check IDs) and through simple trial and error. Meet a guy, make eye contact (which most straight guys will not maintain) and ask him out.
So, you'll have to meet long term partners through friends, through your university (when you get there - or even beforehand, it's not like you can't go hang out at the uni bar... assuming that yours is like mine and they don't check IDs) and through simple trial and error. Meet a guy, make eye contact (which most straight guys will not maintain) and ask him out.
122
There are a ton of comments here. . . so not sure if anyone mentioned this:
but isn't "straight acting" the same as saying gender conforming?
Acting "swishy" (for lack of a better term) has to do less with who you're romantically interested in, and more with a sense of self identity, no?
When a gayman© is effeminate - he's still a guy - just a feminine version of one, no? Some would even argue he's not feminine, but it's his version of masculinity, after all. (shrug.)
(which is different than trans - I know, I'm trans.)
but isn't "straight acting" the same as saying gender conforming?
Acting "swishy" (for lack of a better term) has to do less with who you're romantically interested in, and more with a sense of self identity, no?
When a gayman© is effeminate - he's still a guy - just a feminine version of one, no? Some would even argue he's not feminine, but it's his version of masculinity, after all. (shrug.)
(which is different than trans - I know, I'm trans.)
123
There is no such thing as "straight acting" because such is the default state for normal gays who are not faggy gays.
So, there are normal gays and there are faggy gays, the "straight acting" is just a description of what is the default state of normal gays.
So, there are normal gays and there are faggy gays, the "straight acting" is just a description of what is the default state of normal gays.
124
Hi, I'm Maria, and I'm queer.
Oh, sweetie, I didn't date anyone from high school either, because they were ALL a bunch of idiots! I dated a nice guy who was 18 and had already graduated from high school. Nobody knows how to act in high school, and I'm sure I was one of them, to my fellow students. (somehow I kept that guy, and we've been married for about 18 years now)
Gently remind people that you are romantically and physically interested in men when they assume you're gay, and perhaps a friend (gay or straight) will know someone they can introduce you to. But focus on developing your own personality until you meet someone to your liking. Rather than saying you're into "straight-acting" guys, you can say you like guys who like horseback riding and going to football games or whatever activity you like. See the men as people and potential friends first, not just as genitals with a pretty face, and hopefully you will be treated that way as well. Good luck! And contact PFlag if you need somewhere or someone to volunteer for. You'll meet folks who have already had your issue, and you'll be able to discuss it in a safe place.
As for "straight-acting" I refer to a line in a great song I heard on a college radio station one year - "how straight does he look when he's down on his knees?" The only actions that really define one as straight or gay are two things : sexual activities and self-labeling.
Oh, sweetie, I didn't date anyone from high school either, because they were ALL a bunch of idiots! I dated a nice guy who was 18 and had already graduated from high school. Nobody knows how to act in high school, and I'm sure I was one of them, to my fellow students. (somehow I kept that guy, and we've been married for about 18 years now)
Gently remind people that you are romantically and physically interested in men when they assume you're gay, and perhaps a friend (gay or straight) will know someone they can introduce you to. But focus on developing your own personality until you meet someone to your liking. Rather than saying you're into "straight-acting" guys, you can say you like guys who like horseback riding and going to football games or whatever activity you like. See the men as people and potential friends first, not just as genitals with a pretty face, and hopefully you will be treated that way as well. Good luck! And contact PFlag if you need somewhere or someone to volunteer for. You'll meet folks who have already had your issue, and you'll be able to discuss it in a safe place.
As for "straight-acting" I refer to a line in a great song I heard on a college radio station one year - "how straight does he look when he's down on his knees?" The only actions that really define one as straight or gay are two things : sexual activities and self-labeling.
125
I'm masculine and gay. I like football, play golf, and I am dispassionate about Broadway (give me Rock n Roll!). One of the great loves of my life was a girly little hairdresser who was apt to walk around the house wearing only thigh high leather boots and a tutu all day long, but I didn't care because I thought he was the sexiest thing that ever lived.
One day, HGG, you will see the one you love as just that, and nothing else will matter.
Unless you are an asshole.
If you are a gay guy, and you limit yourself to one "type" of guy, you are missing out. That's like going up to the salad bar and only getting the iceberg lettuce, a tomato wedge, and some french dressing every.fucking.time. You gotta try it all, baby!
One day, HGG, you will see the one you love as just that, and nothing else will matter.
Unless you are an asshole.
If you are a gay guy, and you limit yourself to one "type" of guy, you are missing out. That's like going up to the salad bar and only getting the iceberg lettuce, a tomato wedge, and some french dressing every.fucking.time. You gotta try it all, baby!
126
Couldn't we clear up all the offense at the term "straight-acting" by just saying "male-acting"? Then we could use "female-acting" to illuminate the pervasive misogyny that forms the structure for this whole gay discourse about personality flaws.
127
I think it's better for people to be real, rather that "acting". A gay man who regards himself as "straight-acting" looks even more ridiculous with a dick in his mouth.
128
@HGG, as Dan says, be patient. The guys that you know are gay *now* are way, way out, because that's what most people do when you're young and you first come out about your sexual identity. It feels so good to not have to hide anymore that you overdo for a while. Then you scale it back to where you're comfortable... for some gay guys, that's a lot. For some, not much at all. I guarantee you you will meet gay guys who are masculine. You just won't meet them tomorrow, next week, or next month, because most of your gay peers are still closeted. They *want* to "pass." They'll come out in a year or two or five, and you'll meet them, and then - they'll still be masculine, manly men who are gay.
How do I know this? Because I have a pair of very masculine gay uncles who have been together longer than my parents have, who helped to raise me, and who are out and proud but don't tend to ping anyone's gaydar unless they *want* to ping it, even in *Cuba*.
Be patient and don't chase the straight boys. Just bide your time until the gay guys that are around your age realize that the only "right" way to be gay is the way that works for them... and the way that works for them will sometimes be "a masculine guy who happens to be gay."
And yes, in case anyone is wondering, I am deeply proud of my uncles and think it's a travesty that they've been together longer than I've been alive, certainly longer than my parents' marriage lasted, and yet my uncles still aren't allowed to marry.
How do I know this? Because I have a pair of very masculine gay uncles who have been together longer than my parents have, who helped to raise me, and who are out and proud but don't tend to ping anyone's gaydar unless they *want* to ping it, even in *Cuba*.
Be patient and don't chase the straight boys. Just bide your time until the gay guys that are around your age realize that the only "right" way to be gay is the way that works for them... and the way that works for them will sometimes be "a masculine guy who happens to be gay."
And yes, in case anyone is wondering, I am deeply proud of my uncles and think it's a travesty that they've been together longer than I've been alive, certainly longer than my parents' marriage lasted, and yet my uncles still aren't allowed to marry.
129
Pfffff, all you macho dudes coming in and saying "I'm macho--okay sometimes I sing songs from Wicked...!" Pfffff.
I'll run as a contender to be the faggiest fag who ever fagged--mincing about to cult musicals and buying ~designer~ jeans. I gush, I squeal, innuendos slip out of me like-- well that's not even /trying/. Point is: Queerer than a Three-Dollar bill.
And? I like camping and basketball and muscle cars and robots and science and lifting heavy objects and sweaty punk rock shows. I unironically love terrorcore and hiphop. ALL IN MY FABULOUS PURPLE JEANS~
So, really, while all those currently straight-appearing boys now might be diamonds in the rough trade of "bromance", don't write off the swishy guys as bing ole queens....most of them are like, super nerds in my experience. Nerdity let's it's self off somewhere, sometimes it's restricted to musicals, but sometimes it's also knowing way too much about skateboards and college basketball.
The worst that could happen is now you have a battalion of queens to back you up when you sneak into clubs or storm the nearest pride parade. You might not fuck 'em but at least you could gain a posse!
I'll run as a contender to be the faggiest fag who ever fagged--mincing about to cult musicals and buying ~designer~ jeans. I gush, I squeal, innuendos slip out of me like-- well that's not even /trying/. Point is: Queerer than a Three-Dollar bill.
And? I like camping and basketball and muscle cars and robots and science and lifting heavy objects and sweaty punk rock shows. I unironically love terrorcore and hiphop. ALL IN MY FABULOUS PURPLE JEANS~
So, really, while all those currently straight-appearing boys now might be diamonds in the rough trade of "bromance", don't write off the swishy guys as bing ole queens....most of them are like, super nerds in my experience. Nerdity let's it's self off somewhere, sometimes it's restricted to musicals, but sometimes it's also knowing way too much about skateboards and college basketball.
The worst that could happen is now you have a battalion of queens to back you up when you sneak into clubs or storm the nearest pride parade. You might not fuck 'em but at least you could gain a posse!
130
The kids who are like one-man (or one woman) pride parades just happen to be the most visibly queer. There's probably just as many "straight acting" gay kids, but you don't notice them because they blend in (or they haven't come out yet, since they pass). Some people are bi. So if HGG wants to find some butch guys who want to sleep with him, he's going to have to go looking for them. If HGG feels safe being out, he should let word get around that he's available. One of those invisible queer teens might hear and approach him.
The other commenters are also right, some people temporarily act like stereotypes after they come out while they're still forging an identity.
I have a gay friend who liked only "straight" guys. Totally flamboyant himself, but thought flamboyant guys were awful. He was the self-hating type, recovering from a Catholic upbringing/schooling. Lot of denial, etc.
The other commenters are also right, some people temporarily act like stereotypes after they come out while they're still forging an identity.
I have a gay friend who liked only "straight" guys. Totally flamboyant himself, but thought flamboyant guys were awful. He was the self-hating type, recovering from a Catholic upbringing/schooling. Lot of denial, etc.
131
I think its completely legitimate your concerns, being in a similar boat myself once. I think you just have to try and find men like you who are "straight-acting". I would tend to ignore the advice to try and act more "effeminate" or "more like other gay men"- its not who you are. There will be someone out there for you. If you want to be straightforwardly masculine, then go for it!
132
I also flagrantly disagree that you have to try it all- go with what you are comfortable with. Sure, experiment if you want, but don't do anything you don't want to.
133
The logic of experimenting is fully ignorable also, in my opinion. Being gay does not mean you have to do anything more than be sexually attracted to men. It should not be linked with any mode of behaviour- freedom of choice and attraction. Have sex with who you want. Don't experiment for the sake of it, go with what you like.
134
Couldn't say i'm not a queenie, but people say i'm not. It's akward 'cause i'm out and when they know i'm single they try to match me with women ¬¬ and there is a LOTof homofobia and religious stupidity here in Chile. There is also a lot of homofobia from gays, like this, and most straight-acting-gays are afraid of thinking otherwise (except queerpunks xD). I think you should stop thinking there's away of being a man and a way of being awoman, and just be yourself. That's what "coming out" is about. Stop worrying about it. I'm not saying that bullsit that people love people no matter the sex and similar bullshits. There are filters. Filters for sexual relationships and for afective relationships and for sexual and affective relationships. I actually don't like fat men sexually, not a bit fat, and don't like them facist, nor stupid. There's nothing wrong having filters, nor using them, as long as you realize they come from you and are a part of your personal taste and not a reflection of how people or you should be.
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