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News & ArtsTuesday, March 16, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: A Successful Threesome
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:30 PM
I am a straight woman who has been in a monogamous relationship with the same man for almost five years. He’s absolutely gorgeous, and he’s British, and he makes a decent living, so I’ve always known he wouldn’t have trouble attracting the opposite sex (or the same sex, for that matter!). I, on the other hand, while admittedly pretty, am not exactly a knockout like he is. It’s taken some work to get over my insecurities about that, but I’ve long been confident that he’s really into me, so now that’s a non-issue.Three months ago my boyfriend confessed that he wanted to have a FFM threesome. At first I was horrified at the idea. He wanted to fuck other women. He wanted to act on the impulse to fuck other women. What if he wanted someone prettier than me? What if she was better in bed than me? How could be have a functioning relationship if we had sex with another person? Wouldn’t it demean our own sexual relations, become a black cloud hanging over the rest of our relationship?
Then I took a deep breath and remembered your column. I remembered what you had to say about men and women and desires and your own experiences with threesomes. I came to realize two more things.
The rest of Grateful Gushing Girlfriend's ridiculously long email—and my brief response—after the jump.
First of all, if he wanted to fuck other women, he could have done that and not told me; he had come to me to tell me that while he wanted to fuck another woman, he wanted to fuck another woman with me. If we worked hard to be honest about our feelings and communicate our needs and insecurities, this could turn into a another thing that we did together. In fact, if we focused on communication, honesty, and trust having a threesome could possibly strengthen our relationship.Second of all, I realized that even if this wasn’t my favorite fantasy—or even a fantasy of mine at all—I could still make my pleasure a priority. I consider myself to be straight (as in I’d never wanted to have sex with a woman before and probably could never sustain a romantic relationship with another woman) but lesbian porn (well done lesbian porn) could get me off. If my boyfriend wanted to have sex with another woman, and wanted me to be there, then I could use this as an opportunity to try something intriguing and new. This didn’t need to be just about him having sex with another woman—it could be about both of us having sex with another woman.
So I agreed to a threesome with some ground rules. I wanted us to find a woman to have sex with together. I wanted her to be bisexual; I didn’t want to have a threesome with another straight girl, and I’m wasn’t sure if a lesbian would have sex with my boyfriend. I wanted to be a part of the threesome at all times, which meant that we had to discuss what would happen if he and she began to do something (coming up with ideas beforehand was incredibly helpful). Most of all, I did not want my boyfriend to have penetrative sex with the woman—no vaginal, anal, or oral sex. Plus, I wanted us to be open to having a MMF threesome sometime down the road. Setting these boundaries help me feel as if I had control of the situation; my boyfriend’s agreement to comply with my ground rules proved to me how much he loved me and wanted me to.
We decided, pretty quickly, to hire a woman to have a threesome with us. After a little bit of searching we found—and agreed upon—a local bisexual escort. She was quite lovely, and she advertised that she had experience with threesomes, so I felt like she’d focus on both of us, and not just him, which was my biggest fear.
We rented a lovely room at a posh hotel. We made reservations for the two of us to have dinner after the threesome—we gave the threesome a time period of about three hours. And then the day came, the woman arrived at our hotel room, and my boyfriend and I had a wonderful time together. We staid attentive to each other’s needs, the escort did a good job of showing interest in both of us, and the sex was great. Now we’ve agreed to make this a yearly tradition for us, possibly with the same woman.
Better yet, this whole experience strengthened our relationship. We’re now closer than ever, and the memory of the threesome is not some black cloud hanging over us every time we kiss or hug or have sex. In fact, remembering the threesome together gets us both pretty hot, and before we know it we’re having more fantastic sex.
I decided to write you this ridiculously long email (which I have no idea if you’ll even read, I know you get a lot) because, if I didn’t read your column, and if I had never heard your humorous, matter-of-fact sex advice, I wouldn’t have been able to have a threesome with my boyfriend. (On another note: I’d probably still feel like a freak for being a woman who loves watching porn, both alone and with her boyfriend.) Your column and your writing helped give me the smarts and the confidence to be (and enjoy being) a GGG girlfriend. I can’t put into words how thankful I am that I began reading your column several years ago, or how thankful I am that you take the time and effort to write your column, because it (and you) help so many people become better, happier versions of themselves. I am so happy in my relationship with my boyfriend right now, Dan, and while it’s largely thanks to us… I know your column has played a part in bettering our relationship too.
Sincerely,
Grateful Gushing Girlfriend
Thanks for sharing, GGG, and congratulations. It sounds like you two did absolutely everything right: you hashed out all the details, you set ground rules advance, and you hired a pro instead of waiting years for an unattached bi girl/unicorn to come along. I'm posting your entire letter to the blog, long though it is, because people rarely hear from committed couples who've had successful FFM MMF threesomes. Lots of people are convinced that threesomes destroy relationships because the only threesomes they ever hear about are the disasters, i.e. the ones that came immediately before a breakup, threesomes that are rightly or wrongly blamed for a breakup that was probably coming anyway. And since most people in stable relationships want to be perceived as monogamous even when they're not, people aren't generally aware of all the threesomes their presumed-to-be-monogamous friends have had.
Thanks again for sharing.
1
Most of all, I did not want my boyfriend to have penetrative sex with the woman—no vaginal, anal, or oral sex.
What the fuck kind of threesome is that? Lame.
What the fuck kind of threesome is that? Lame.
2
the escort was a really smart choice, given all the boundaries the writer needed to enforce... someone who wasn't getting paid might take offense!
really, though, good for them. it's nice to hear about the successes.
really, though, good for them. it's nice to hear about the successes.
4
@1 I disagree. His willingness to abide by her rules established the necessary trust here.
@3 You get naked and get off together, that's how.
PS Yay for them.
@3 You get naked and get off together, that's how.
PS Yay for them.
6
"I did not want my boyfriend to have penetrative sex with the woman—no vaginal, anal, or oral sex."
That will prove very difficult to forbid now.
Seems to me that sadly GGG tho she denies it still suffers from low-self esteem and that due to that and because she really loves the guy she's with will put up with anything he asks of her. She's gonna rationalize it and accommodate it one million ways until she feels that she's not being taking advantage of due to what she considers is her shortcoming.
Perfect example of why women should never become romantically involved with pretty boys. Too much competition, which will end up leaving you with too much insecurities which will in turn open you up to accepting his will. You're gonna be in a beauty pagent ( competing with a man ) and wont even realize it.
That will prove very difficult to forbid now.
Seems to me that sadly GGG tho she denies it still suffers from low-self esteem and that due to that and because she really loves the guy she's with will put up with anything he asks of her. She's gonna rationalize it and accommodate it one million ways until she feels that she's not being taking advantage of due to what she considers is her shortcoming.
Perfect example of why women should never become romantically involved with pretty boys. Too much competition, which will end up leaving you with too much insecurities which will in turn open you up to accepting his will. You're gonna be in a beauty pagent ( competing with a man ) and wont even realize it.
9
She did specifically say "no penetrative sex", including vaginal, oral and anal. I believe that means he still gets to use his mouth any way he sees fit, and it seems that's more than enough for him and her to have a great time. Good for them.
11
No penetration? Pffft, whatever. I don't think this guy actually got to fulfill his fantasy; it sounds more like he just got to have sex with his partner in the presence of an escort. Which might please some, and he might compromise on it in place of a MFF threesome, but it's not much of a MMF threesome. Sorry.
12
Sure honey, we can have a threesome. But, no oral, anal, or vag sex. Plus, it will only be me and you there, no third person. Agreed?
13
@6, wow, that was amazingly brilliant and insightful! I kinda knew that if a woman wrote to say "hey! it worked! and I liked it!" she was actually in denial and everything she said was a sham based on low-self esteem that essentially discounts *everything* she says, unless of course she's telling you how terrible she feels. Yay for ad-hoc psychoanalysis on teh inkermeps! Humanity WIN!
14
@6 - Try again - "In fact, remembering the threesome together gets us both pretty hot, and before we know it we’re having more fantastic sex." Seems that the only rationalizing is being done by you. You're trying to convince yourself GGG's enjoyment is self-delusion. Have any mirrors? Go take a look in one.
15
Great letter, great response. You do really good work with your column (most of the time) and this letter should make you feel proud.
18
Hooray! Happy ending. Only not the end. The beginning!
Hopefully she relaxes the "no sex with the other woman" stricture in the future - and let's be honest, it really is no sex if she defines everything except hands as penetrative sex - because that's kind of... lame. Everybody's gotta start somewhere, though.
(And Loveschild, I can only imagine what it's like to live your life feeling like everyone is constantly trying to demean you and take advantage of you and all you can do is be on guard, all the time. You make me very sad.)
Hopefully she relaxes the "no sex with the other woman" stricture in the future - and let's be honest, it really is no sex if she defines everything except hands as penetrative sex - because that's kind of... lame. Everybody's gotta start somewhere, though.
(And Loveschild, I can only imagine what it's like to live your life feeling like everyone is constantly trying to demean you and take advantage of you and all you can do is be on guard, all the time. You make me very sad.)
19
Yeah, I could see those rules making it even hotter. And the established fact that he gladly obliged and honored those rules results in trust, and it's possible she'll feel comfortable with more eventually. Or not - either way, it sounds like they had a great time, so it doesn't matter if the threesome rules are unappealing for anyone else but them.
20
@19 I couldn't agree more. It's their threeway and if they are happy with how it went that's all that matters.
That being said I would have found those restrictions pretty frustrating (although that can be kind of hot in small doses). My bet is that if they ever have the MMF threesome she'll lax up on the rules afterwards.
That being said I would have found those restrictions pretty frustrating (although that can be kind of hot in small doses). My bet is that if they ever have the MMF threesome she'll lax up on the rules afterwards.
21
How can you guys doubt LC on this one? Women don't enjoy sex (except the birthin' babehs part - it's magical!), it's just something they do to please men!
And dykes, well we're pretty much men with vaginas, anyway.
And dykes, well we're pretty much men with vaginas, anyway.
22
I wonder how satisfactory the BF found the "threesome."
It beats not fooling around with two women, of course... But I suspect he went along with her conditions so she wouldn't be as skittish next time.
It beats not fooling around with two women, of course... But I suspect he went along with her conditions so she wouldn't be as skittish next time.
23
@6
So hot guys are doomed to live alone forever, in your ideal world? Most of the hetero women I know are partnered with hot guys- and I don't think any of them are bummed about it!
So hot guys are doomed to live alone forever, in your ideal world? Most of the hetero women I know are partnered with hot guys- and I don't think any of them are bummed about it!
24
"He wanted to act on the impulse to fuck other women."
So did the BF discover that he misread his initial impulse or did he just learn to replace that impulse with other things?
So did the BF discover that he misread his initial impulse or did he just learn to replace that impulse with other things?
26
Anyone else notice the Loveschild pretty much admitted she has an ugly husband? Or at least that good looking guys are out of her league?
27
I'd say my husband is hot, and no, I'm not too bummed about it. Project much, #6?
Personally, I think threesomes invite problems, whether the relationship is on stable ground or not, but that's just my take on it. It's good to hear that it worked out for this couple.
Personally, I think threesomes invite problems, whether the relationship is on stable ground or not, but that's just my take on it. It's good to hear that it worked out for this couple.
28
"I’m wasn’t sure if a lesbian would have sex with my boyfriend."
*cough* I'm glad you went with the pro, honey, instead of joining all the dumbfuck straight couples trolling for thirds amongst my set. Very annoying to be having fun dancing/making out with a girl in the bar, only to then have her start in on how she the bf have anyways wanted to do a FFM. grr.
*cough* I'm glad you went with the pro, honey, instead of joining all the dumbfuck straight couples trolling for thirds amongst my set. Very annoying to be having fun dancing/making out with a girl in the bar, only to then have her start in on how she the bf have anyways wanted to do a FFM. grr.
29
Are you saying, LC, that people shouldn't have relationships with the people they are attracted to, because other people could be attracted to that person as well? Sounds like a recipe for creating relationships based on lies and mistrust.
It seems pretty clear also that GGG's relationship and self-esteem is strengthened by her and her partner's willingness to be GGG. No cracks tearing apart her self-confidence, no black cloud, just happiness and growth in the relationship.
It seems pretty clear also that GGG's relationship and self-esteem is strengthened by her and her partner's willingness to be GGG. No cracks tearing apart her self-confidence, no black cloud, just happiness and growth in the relationship.
31
Give up, horny guys; sexually adventurous women are a myth, it seems. Best you'll find is a women who will hire an escort that you don't get to ever touch and call it a "threesome".
32
@31,
Oh frumious Bandersnatch, thou art no Snark.
The Snark is a Boojum you see,
And knows all women have sexual agency.
Oh frumious Bandersnatch, thou art no Snark.
The Snark is a Boojum you see,
And knows all women have sexual agency.
34
Unless of course they have bought into the patriarchy, or are otherwise confined by such frumiousness and Bandersnatchery.
35
For the people mocking the writer for setting the limits -- give her a break, she has said that she would like to make this a yearly event (possibly with the same escort). It is likely that she will relax the rules next time, she was testing the waters to see what is was like. I think the BF is probably happy she didn't freak out and say never. It would have been much worse if she hadn't set limits freaked out (either during or afterwards) and said that it would never, ever be a possibility again (which is usually the case for the threesomes just before a breakup).
36
While I applaud this woman's effort in trying to make her man happy while maintaining her rights as the main object of affection, I personally think she set a bad course by NOT allowing him to have penetrative sex with the other woman.
I predict him looking elsewhere behind her back for that penetrative sex.
If I were to do a threesome, or open up a relationship I was in, I'd have to be 100% certain that my emotional feelings are my significant other's first priority, and that the ONLY reason he wants sex on the side is for the sport of it. If that were in place, it doesn't matter who else he has sex with, as long as we have a tight emotional bond.
And finally, Ms. GGG, I suggest you ask your loving boyfriend if you're totally fulfilling all his sexual desires, especially since you love him so much to try and fulfill his, albeit with your "stipulations". Not to sound negative, but there is the slight possibility that people stay in relationships because of the life that it has created for them, and to leave that relationship would shatter their world socially, and not emotionally.
I predict him looking elsewhere behind her back for that penetrative sex.
If I were to do a threesome, or open up a relationship I was in, I'd have to be 100% certain that my emotional feelings are my significant other's first priority, and that the ONLY reason he wants sex on the side is for the sport of it. If that were in place, it doesn't matter who else he has sex with, as long as we have a tight emotional bond.
And finally, Ms. GGG, I suggest you ask your loving boyfriend if you're totally fulfilling all his sexual desires, especially since you love him so much to try and fulfill his, albeit with your "stipulations". Not to sound negative, but there is the slight possibility that people stay in relationships because of the life that it has created for them, and to leave that relationship would shatter their world socially, and not emotionally.
37
@35 - I won't mock her for setting limits, but rather for pretending that she just described a MFF threesome. A "dry run" it may have been, perhaps, but a threesome it was not. I suspect her boyfriend, though perhaps resigned to it, saw it a little differently.
And as for the old "sex is not penetration" line: maybe not for you, but but a lot of straight men would disagree, I think. Handjobs? Kind of detached, if you ask me. Besides, I have two hands already, thanks, and they probably do the job with more precision than yours.
And as for the old "sex is not penetration" line: maybe not for you, but but a lot of straight men would disagree, I think. Handjobs? Kind of detached, if you ask me. Besides, I have two hands already, thanks, and they probably do the job with more precision than yours.
38
Who gives a shit? It worked for them. Hooray! Here's to two partners respecting each other, and giving it their best to ensure each was satisfied and each enjoyed themselves while respecting each others' boundaries.
Their rules will change, but this, like anything else, laid the groundwork. :)
Glad you guys had fun!
Their rules will change, but this, like anything else, laid the groundwork. :)
Glad you guys had fun!
39
"Seems to me..." -LC
Of course it seems that way to you. You're emotionally tied to men and women relating in a very narrowly-defined manner, sexually or otherwise. I'm not going to guess why you feel that way, why it's so important to you to feel & think & know that only your view of relationships is the 'correct' one. That's just how it is. So when you see a successful relationship that is outside your narrow viewpoint, it will "seem" to you that somehow, somewhere, something is wrong.
You put "love" in your name, but I've only read about your selfish, narrow-minded ideas about how everyone who doesn't agree w/ you is shit. What you don't realize is that when you see shit, it's because you put it there. You are one huge, big, non-stop producer of shit & crap. If you don't like your world, then stop filling it w/ shit.
Of course it seems that way to you. You're emotionally tied to men and women relating in a very narrowly-defined manner, sexually or otherwise. I'm not going to guess why you feel that way, why it's so important to you to feel & think & know that only your view of relationships is the 'correct' one. That's just how it is. So when you see a successful relationship that is outside your narrow viewpoint, it will "seem" to you that somehow, somewhere, something is wrong.
You put "love" in your name, but I've only read about your selfish, narrow-minded ideas about how everyone who doesn't agree w/ you is shit. What you don't realize is that when you see shit, it's because you put it there. You are one huge, big, non-stop producer of shit & crap. If you don't like your world, then stop filling it w/ shit.
40
I don't get the whole 'threesomes never work thing.' My boyfriend and I have had multiple hot threesomes with other women (and with penetration!) with absolutely zero shit show fall out afterwards.
We are incredibly emotionally stable people, but other then that there is nothing that makes us more predisposed to this sort of thing working out. It makes me think there must be tons of other couples out there like us who quietly have their sexual adventures, and let everyone else think they always end in disaster. Yay GGG for giving it a (tentative) go. That's apparently more than most people!
We are incredibly emotionally stable people, but other then that there is nothing that makes us more predisposed to this sort of thing working out. It makes me think there must be tons of other couples out there like us who quietly have their sexual adventures, and let everyone else think they always end in disaster. Yay GGG for giving it a (tentative) go. That's apparently more than most people!
43
GGG says she's happy about her experiment, and I'm inclined to take her at her word. She sounds like a rational adult who thought about it and expressed her feelings clearly beforehand. Look, I know not everyone is happy with "sportfucking", but it HAPPENS and it's better, in my opinion, when it happens with a healthy dose of reality and 100% transparency. As an adult in a working openly non-monogamous marriage (17 years, thank you for asking), this kind of letter isn't what I'm about, but I do like the learning process that GGG went through. Thanks for sharing, GGG!
44
@40 - Really? Wow, cool and interesting to hear.
Are you both very attractive? Seems like that would go a long way towards leveling out insecurities. Roughly how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
Are you both very attractive? Seems like that would go a long way towards leveling out insecurities. Roughly how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
46
I would love to see his letter. Something tells me it would be just a liiiiittle different than hers. Something akin to grateful that she didn't freak out and that they had a technical 3some, but far short of his fantasy.
47
This whole letter is basically taunting me. My wife, who thought she'd be up for a bit of play with another woman once we were more established, changed her mind as she got more attached to me and jealous. Yeah ... big surprise. No more fun in store for me, I suspect.
48
@44 We're in our late 20's, pretty attractive, and have been dating for a year and a half. We started doing things with other women (and another couple once) about 6 months ago. I think it's basically a genius arrangement. We get to have adventures with other people, but still feel secure in our relationship because people know they're getting us as a package deal. I'm not saying it can't/won't get weird ever, but so far it has made us even more crazy about each other. Ironically, it also has made us more committed about being together long term. It's a lot easier to envision staying with somebody the rest of your life if you know you have an arrangement that actually allows you to keep having fun and excitement in your life.
49
Yeah, everyone, I'm sure her boyfriend's going to let her suck/fuck the other guy right off the bat, too (in a MMF threesome). How many guys who get hot over a threeway for another girl, and wants to have penetrative sex with both women, feel as excited when there's another penis in the room?
Plus, do you think threesomes will become a yearly thing after she reads these comments and finds out a) how lame her threesome was and b) how unhappy her boyfriend is with it? Fantasies as potentially disastrous as threesomes need room for compromise.
Plus, do you think threesomes will become a yearly thing after she reads these comments and finds out a) how lame her threesome was and b) how unhappy her boyfriend is with it? Fantasies as potentially disastrous as threesomes need room for compromise.
50
Great letter. I liked her attitude and it's cool that it worked out well for both of them.
So what if the woman forbade penetrative sex. I'm sure the guy would've liked to have done that but, on the other hand, his girlfriend was willing to let him get naked with her and another woman and do something sexual, and that alone is more than most women (in my opinion) would be willing to do. Lucky guy.
I wonder why she feels like like a freak because she loves watching porn, both alone and with her boyfriend. I'm sure women don't watch porn to nearly the degree that men do but I also wouldn't think women who watch it are so rare that a woman would feel like a freak for loving it.
So what if the woman forbade penetrative sex. I'm sure the guy would've liked to have done that but, on the other hand, his girlfriend was willing to let him get naked with her and another woman and do something sexual, and that alone is more than most women (in my opinion) would be willing to do. Lucky guy.
I wonder why she feels like like a freak because she loves watching porn, both alone and with her boyfriend. I'm sure women don't watch porn to nearly the degree that men do but I also wouldn't think women who watch it are so rare that a woman would feel like a freak for loving it.
51
48/Ashley: It's a lot easier to envision staying with somebody the rest of your life if you know you have an arrangement that actually allows you to keep having fun and excitement in your life.
To me, that has always seemed like a great reason for an open relationship to keep a couple together. Sure, you're playing around sexually with other people and there's always that chance one person could really connect with someone else. But, on the other hand, you're with a person who allows you to be sexual with other people and how many people find a partner like that in their life?
On another note, I'm sure a lot (probably most) straight guys would love to have a FMF threesome. I sure would. But I wonder what percentage of those guys would change their mind if their girlfriend or wife said a condition of a FMF threesome was also, at some point, having a MFM threesome. I'm not into men but I'm also not completely freaked out by the idea of being with a woman and another man so I think I'd consent to that deal.
To me, that has always seemed like a great reason for an open relationship to keep a couple together. Sure, you're playing around sexually with other people and there's always that chance one person could really connect with someone else. But, on the other hand, you're with a person who allows you to be sexual with other people and how many people find a partner like that in their life?
On another note, I'm sure a lot (probably most) straight guys would love to have a FMF threesome. I sure would. But I wonder what percentage of those guys would change their mind if their girlfriend or wife said a condition of a FMF threesome was also, at some point, having a MFM threesome. I'm not into men but I'm also not completely freaked out by the idea of being with a woman and another man so I think I'd consent to that deal.
52
Damn, that girl missed out- I love watching my man fuck the other girl when we are having a threesome. You get to see your partner at angles that you can never see when it's just the two of you!
And FYI, my partner and I have had several successful threesomes. It does happen!
And FYI, my partner and I have had several successful threesomes. It does happen!
53
I love (and by this I mean "I do not love") everyone who is bashing this woman for having the effrontery to set boundaries that work for her in her first 3some experience. Yes, she and the partner should have made agreements that she wasn't comfortable with--that would be a recipe for an EXCELLENT sexual adventure. Baby steps, people, baby steps. That's what works for some people, and it's easy for others to mock that on the Intertubes (like all of you 'OH THAT'S LAME' people get your hand into anything hotter than a bag of spicy Cheetos).
54
I feel sorry for those who think a guy must have had a lame time if there was no penetration of one of the two female partners in a three-way. Sounds like a lack of imagination to me. Yay for GGG and her guy. And maybe as trust grows rules slacken and more good times are had.
55
"I feel sorry for those who think a guy must have had a lame time if there was no penetration of one of the two female partners in a three-way. Sounds like a lack of imagination to me."
Umm ... yeah, sure, it's simply unimaginative. Like if my partner "I'd like to be tied up and restrained", and my partner responds with "I'll tie you up, except I won't use any rope or twine or restraint of any sort whatsoever and you'll actually be completely free to move, ok?" ... well, clearly he's just _unimaginative_ if he doesn't find that to be exactly what he asked for.
Puh-leeze.
Umm ... yeah, sure, it's simply unimaginative. Like if my partner "I'd like to be tied up and restrained", and my partner responds with "I'll tie you up, except I won't use any rope or twine or restraint of any sort whatsoever and you'll actually be completely free to move, ok?" ... well, clearly he's just _unimaginative_ if he doesn't find that to be exactly what he asked for.
Puh-leeze.
56
I'd like to call out all the people who are criticizing the conditions the letter writer set for the threesome. First, it's her sex life, not yours. You don't have to approve of their agreements, but they didn't ask you what you think about them, so butt out. Second, strict and specific rules for a first threesome experience are good. They can help the more worried partner manage jealousy and the more gung-ho partner demonstrate trustworthiness. They're like training wheels for sexual non-monogamy.
Dear letter writer: good on you for going for it and doing it the smart way. Sounds like you had a good experience.
Dear letter writer: good on you for going for it and doing it the smart way. Sounds like you had a good experience.
57
She liked it, which means he fucking hated it. And the beauty of it is that he'll never be allowed to say how bored he was, and how much resentment it created! ROTFLMAO! I fucking love it.
58
@49
I think it's a lot easier to skip the restrictions if you're both bi. I've had MMF threesomes and there were no conditions, and we all had a whole lot of fun, I don't mind telling you. MFM threesomes, on the other hand, where one of the guys is uncomfortable with the other, are... awkward. Whether or not you're interested in the third person's presence in the bed for your own sake makes a big difference.
@56 et al
There seem to be two general types of people "criticizing" here: one group who are saying "I would not enjoy a threesome with those restrictions" and another saying "Those are strict conditions but perhaps they will relax in the future when she is more comfortable." I think both are entirely valid comments, even if people are being a little glib about it. What I do not see much of is people saying "SHE IS STUPID FOR SETTING CONDITIONS," which seems to be what you are responding to. Chill.
I think it's a lot easier to skip the restrictions if you're both bi. I've had MMF threesomes and there were no conditions, and we all had a whole lot of fun, I don't mind telling you. MFM threesomes, on the other hand, where one of the guys is uncomfortable with the other, are... awkward. Whether or not you're interested in the third person's presence in the bed for your own sake makes a big difference.
@56 et al
There seem to be two general types of people "criticizing" here: one group who are saying "I would not enjoy a threesome with those restrictions" and another saying "Those are strict conditions but perhaps they will relax in the future when she is more comfortable." I think both are entirely valid comments, even if people are being a little glib about it. What I do not see much of is people saying "SHE IS STUPID FOR SETTING CONDITIONS," which seems to be what you are responding to. Chill.
59
Maybe she's just really possessive of his cock and she didn't want to see him fucking the other girl's mouth. You don't know. Maybe she rode her bf's cock and the escort sat on his face. Maybe he jerked off on both their faces after fucking her from behind while she made out with the escort. Maybe the escort ate out his ass while he and the writer were fucking slowly. Calm down, people. How many threesomes have you all actually had? Just having another naked body in the room is new and exciting if you've been with the same partner for a long time. She wrote in to say "Thanks, Dan, because of your encouragement, I tried something new, and I LIKED IT!" Stop hating.
60
My boyfriend and I have had more than a few threesomes over the course of five or six years, FMF and MFM, none of which turned out disastrously. And, although he was free to penetrate the other woman, if I had said to him "No penetration, you just get to touch, lick, and watch the two of us go at it...." I'm pretty sure he would have still been thrilled with the whole thing... and would more than likely have been willing to keep those rules in the future.... so, whether she's more lax about it next time or not, lay off her stipulations. And also, go her for making the MFM threesome part of the deal. Over all, I'd say she did an awesome job of working this whole thing out.
61
@40
"We are incredibly emotionally stable people, but other then that there is nothing that makes us more predisposed to this sort of thing working out"
I'd say the incredibly emotionally stable part is what's missing from most relationships - most people - today.
"We are incredibly emotionally stable people, but other then that there is nothing that makes us more predisposed to this sort of thing working out"
I'd say the incredibly emotionally stable part is what's missing from most relationships - most people - today.
63
For all of you who are whining about her conditions of no oral, vaginal, or anal penetration: y'all are dumb as shit.
Way to insist that women are supposed to broaden their minds about their relationships enough so that we can accept our partners having penetrative sex with a third right off the bat. Yet you dumbasses can't possibly be expected to broaden your minds about sexual pleasure enough to get off on a handjob, tittyfucking, getting tickled by a feather, railing the third with a dildo, or the many other ways people can get each other off without using their genitals to penetrate each other.
Something tells me that none of you are as good at negotiating a successful threesome that leaves the gf hankering for more, as GGG's boyfriend is.
Way to insist that women are supposed to broaden their minds about their relationships enough so that we can accept our partners having penetrative sex with a third right off the bat. Yet you dumbasses can't possibly be expected to broaden your minds about sexual pleasure enough to get off on a handjob, tittyfucking, getting tickled by a feather, railing the third with a dildo, or the many other ways people can get each other off without using their genitals to penetrate each other.
Something tells me that none of you are as good at negotiating a successful threesome that leaves the gf hankering for more, as GGG's boyfriend is.
65
@64 so is titty fucking, or pegging (or that one involving fucking the thighs...). I'm kind of bemused at all these people who can't figure out what the fuck you might do with a girl that *doesn't* involve putting your dick somewhere within her...
66
Yep.. no vaginal, anal, or even ORAL? Once a year is fine. And she can pay for it. I might forget to show up, if there's something good on TV. Unless you're under 17, that's not sex, it's cuddling.
67
So back in the column when that guy's wife was in college and got naked and a guy used a vibrator on her but she didn't have intercourse with him and Dan insisted she had had sex with the guy, you all thought Dan was wrong then? Cos non penetrative sex just isn't sex, not even worth showing up for?
68
@65 Of course there are lots of ways a man can pleasure a woman without putting his dick in her. There are very ways that a man can be pleasured by a woman that don't involve putting his dick in her and they all fall into a few small categories: 1) Fetishes not shared by the general population such as pegging or bdsm stuff; 2) Diversions that are fun or even quite pleasurable for a few minutes to spice things up but won't lead to orgasm for most men like titty fucking or licking in various places; and 3) The stuff you do with your girlfriend before she consents to actual sex like handjobs and frottage and groping.
Category one stuff either turns you on or it doesn't. Category two and three stuff is nice and all, but it is not really sex. It is like sitting down to dinner and finding out that there are some lovely chutneys and handmade mustards but no meats, vegetables, or starches.
I am glad this couple had a nice time, but what they did is more like her accompanying him to a strip club with very lax rules than it is like a threesome. My wife has gone with me to a strip club and had some intimate touching from a stripper. That was hot for us both and fueled fantasies for a time, but I don't think to myself that I had a threesome as a result. He got to roll around naked with the escort, and that is better than not getting to do that, but while the letter writer may have had a threesome (in that penetrative sex would not be required for the escort to get her off), he did not (in that penetrative sex would have been required to get him off).
Still though, if he got to watch his girlfriend have sex with another woman I guess that still counts as a win, even if it doesn't count as a threesome.
Category one stuff either turns you on or it doesn't. Category two and three stuff is nice and all, but it is not really sex. It is like sitting down to dinner and finding out that there are some lovely chutneys and handmade mustards but no meats, vegetables, or starches.
I am glad this couple had a nice time, but what they did is more like her accompanying him to a strip club with very lax rules than it is like a threesome. My wife has gone with me to a strip club and had some intimate touching from a stripper. That was hot for us both and fueled fantasies for a time, but I don't think to myself that I had a threesome as a result. He got to roll around naked with the escort, and that is better than not getting to do that, but while the letter writer may have had a threesome (in that penetrative sex would not be required for the escort to get her off), he did not (in that penetrative sex would have been required to get him off).
Still though, if he got to watch his girlfriend have sex with another woman I guess that still counts as a win, even if it doesn't count as a threesome.
70
Uh, 68, he DID have penetrative intercourse during his three-way. It was just his gf he penetrated, not the escort. And I'm sure he was more interested in playing with 4 tits that he was in which girl his cock was in.
Are you saying that it's only a proper threesome if he gets to stick it into every available orifice? Sounds more like a counting game to me.
Are you saying that it's only a proper threesome if he gets to stick it into every available orifice? Sounds more like a counting game to me.
71
Wow. The comments are a lot to take in. Thank you, Mr. Savage, for your kind words. They help, because I wasn't quite prepared for all of the negative comments. I guess my boyfriend agreed to my stipulations so readily that it never occurred to me that I might be setting him up for a "lame" imitation of his real fantasy. And the sex we have where we remember the "threesome" together has always been fantastic, so he's given me no reason to believe that he had a bad time. And as we've discussed making the MMF threesome a reality, he's had the same problem as I did - he doesn't particularly want me to have vaginal/anal sex with or perform oral sex on another man. So, if we have a MMF threesome, it might again turn into a lot of same-sex play and alternative sexual practices. Which probably wouldn't work for about 99% of other couples but which seems to work for us fine. I guess the intention of my letter wasn't to show how we had it all - great relationship, great sex, and a great real threesome to boot - but how broadening your horizons (even the tiniest bit) can lead to really great things. Ultimately I guess each couple considering a threesome has to consider what works for them. If the woman (or man) says no penetration, and the other partner isn't okay with that, then discuss the possibility of broadening what you will allow in the future. My boyfriend and I do. We're new at threesomes, and I think that for the time being we'd rather play it safe, establish more trust and get more experience, and then turn to allowing more intimate acts of sex into the threesome. Or who knows. Maybe I have it completely wrong. Maybe my boyfriend was bored and hated the threesome and is denying me the ability to have vaginal or anal sex with another man because he wants to make our MMF threesome as boring as or FFM threesome. But then I remember the fantastic sex. And that he loves to talk about what it felt like to have me blow him while she played with his ass and balls. And I have to shrug again, because in that case he's a really good actor.
Signed, Grateful Gushing Girlfriend (leaving a ridiculously long comment)
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Signed, Grateful Gushing Girlfriend (leaving a ridiculously long comment)
72
71: people are just being assholes. Most of the negative responses come from people who have never done anything kinkier than girl-on-top sex. It's your relationship: you two get to make the rules, decide what's fun for you, and run your threeways however the fuck you want.
73
@71 (letter writer): The possible reason why people are having negative reactions to your letter is not because you had very strict no-sex rules, but that you came off sounding like "Hey, Dan, look at this hot quasi-threesome I compromised on with my boyfriend that I might let us do again in a whole year. Aren't I so GGG? Give me a pat on the head and a gold star." Yes, you were open-minded and tried something new to please your bf. The "threesome" was a great start and assuming you continue building on it, you might someday -- but not right now -- earn a shiny Girlfriend of the Year award.
74
@17: I am gonna show this to my boyfriend! He's the one who is scared that if we have an MFF threeway I'll run off with the other girl. (MFM doesn't turn me on)
75
@71: Your threesome was NOT lame. It got you off, it got him off, and (presuming you two are good in bed) it got the third off. NOT LAME. Maybe sometime down the road of annual threesomes (what a nice idea!) you'll relax enough to let him fuck the third. Or not. He still gets to fuck YOU, and gets plenty of jerkoff material. And I just figured most of the action involving the third was girl on girl with him watching. SO HOT.
76
@73 Then Savage is at fault for posting this letter, where GGG verbally fellates him. Why'd he post this long long long email? Probably because he felt like he deserved a sex columnist's shiney gold star.
77
71/GGG: I guess my boyfriend agreed to my stipulations so readily that it never occurred to me that I might be setting him up for a "lame" imitation of his real fantasy. And the sex we have where we remember the "threesome" together has always been fantastic, so he's given me no reason to believe that he had a bad time.
I would bet he ideally would've loved to go a little further with the other woman but just because he didn't get his (likely) ideal, doesn't mean he had a bad time.
I'm sure he did have a good time. Probably a great time. He got to be naked with you, a woman he loves and is attracted to, and another woman. You were open to that; many women wouldn't be. How can any straight guy not like that? Hell, plenty of guys would be happy just to watch two sexy women please each other.
He may also have been realistic. Since you had said having an eventual MFM was part of the deal and he's not keen on you going that far with another man, he knew it was only fair to agree to your rules with the other woman. It wouldn't be fair for him to expect to fuck another woman while forbidding you from fucking another man. Sounds to me like you've got a respectful guy with a sense of fairness and he's got a sexy woman open to new things. Good for both of you.
I would bet he ideally would've loved to go a little further with the other woman but just because he didn't get his (likely) ideal, doesn't mean he had a bad time.
I'm sure he did have a good time. Probably a great time. He got to be naked with you, a woman he loves and is attracted to, and another woman. You were open to that; many women wouldn't be. How can any straight guy not like that? Hell, plenty of guys would be happy just to watch two sexy women please each other.
He may also have been realistic. Since you had said having an eventual MFM was part of the deal and he's not keen on you going that far with another man, he knew it was only fair to agree to your rules with the other woman. It wouldn't be fair for him to expect to fuck another woman while forbidding you from fucking another man. Sounds to me like you've got a respectful guy with a sense of fairness and he's got a sexy woman open to new things. Good for both of you.
78
i cannot believe how weirdly critical everyone is being of GGG. for as many calls and letters as dan gets about women who won't do a single fucking weird thing in the bedroom, driving their husbands/partners insane, i think this girl did pretty damn well.
knowing your emotional limits going into something like this is EXTREMELY important. she knew that penetrative sex with the other woman on his part would have messed her up emotionally, which would have made it a bad experience for her, which would have made her not want to allow outside sex EVER again. i think a good continued relationship wherin her husband can get some action with women besides her is worth more than one "real" threesome that would could have destroyed his marriage.
now she thinks its kinda hot. more power to her.
knowing your emotional limits going into something like this is EXTREMELY important. she knew that penetrative sex with the other woman on his part would have messed her up emotionally, which would have made it a bad experience for her, which would have made her not want to allow outside sex EVER again. i think a good continued relationship wherin her husband can get some action with women besides her is worth more than one "real" threesome that would could have destroyed his marriage.
now she thinks its kinda hot. more power to her.
79
@71. I was probably one of the people whose comments you saw as negative (comment 68).
I want to make it clear that I don't disapprove of what you did or think you or your relationship are lame. My argument was a technical terminology issue rather than a criticism. In most ways, I was responding to other commenters much more that I was responding to you.
What you did sounds fun. I am sure your boyfriend enjoyed it. I am sure you are correct that it revved him up at the time and in retrospect.
The fact that he probably would have enjoyed a penetrative threesome more than what you did does not mean that what you did was not fun or hot and so on. If I go to a strip club, the fact that I would prefer to fuck the dancers doesn't mean I don't like it when they rub on me. I still enjoy the contact. When I was single, the fact that I might not get to fuck a date, but got other contact from her doesn't mean that I did not enjoy the contact just because I didn't get to go all the way.
It is all a question of degrees, and I am professionally interested in definitions, so this kind of thing interests me enough to comment. So the fact that what you did does not meet my definition of a threesome does not mean that it does not meet my definition of fun or hot. As I said before, I am glad you had a good time.
I want to make it clear that I don't disapprove of what you did or think you or your relationship are lame. My argument was a technical terminology issue rather than a criticism. In most ways, I was responding to other commenters much more that I was responding to you.
What you did sounds fun. I am sure your boyfriend enjoyed it. I am sure you are correct that it revved him up at the time and in retrospect.
The fact that he probably would have enjoyed a penetrative threesome more than what you did does not mean that what you did was not fun or hot and so on. If I go to a strip club, the fact that I would prefer to fuck the dancers doesn't mean I don't like it when they rub on me. I still enjoy the contact. When I was single, the fact that I might not get to fuck a date, but got other contact from her doesn't mean that I did not enjoy the contact just because I didn't get to go all the way.
It is all a question of degrees, and I am professionally interested in definitions, so this kind of thing interests me enough to comment. So the fact that what you did does not meet my definition of a threesome does not mean that it does not meet my definition of fun or hot. As I said before, I am glad you had a good time.
80
Not to get too philosophical on your asses, but where do people get the idea that the pursuit of sublime bliss and thundering orgasms requires that no rules or boundaries be set? Ever tried playing football with no rules or boundaries? How'd it work out?
There are always rules and boundaries. There have to be. Without them, you waste time and energy and creativity improvising boundaries. (If the word makes you unhappy, call them "guidelines".) Boundaries actually free the imagination to soar to unlimited heights of creativity. Evidence: Shakespeare's sonnets.
They're especially important in a case like this. Without stated limits, the bf is almost certain to collide head-on with one of his gf's UN-stated limits. If I were in a 3-way, just getting revved up and hot and excited, to hear "don't you dare do that" whispered in my ear would kill my boner real fast.
There are always rules and boundaries. There have to be. Without them, you waste time and energy and creativity improvising boundaries. (If the word makes you unhappy, call them "guidelines".) Boundaries actually free the imagination to soar to unlimited heights of creativity. Evidence: Shakespeare's sonnets.
They're especially important in a case like this. Without stated limits, the bf is almost certain to collide head-on with one of his gf's UN-stated limits. If I were in a 3-way, just getting revved up and hot and excited, to hear "don't you dare do that" whispered in my ear would kill my boner real fast.
81
No penetrative sex indeed. Like as in he couldn't even eat her snatch?!? WTF I'd so love to hear HIS letter to Dan about the '3some'.
3 hours, how much did they spend? Dude is an idiot and bitch is, well, a bitch.
And she's feeling all GGG about herself, shit! I'm so GGG Dan, thanks sooo much buddy!
'Maybe even the same escort', because she did it with a straight face and didn't laugh at them.
I hope she reads all this.
3 hours, how much did they spend? Dude is an idiot and bitch is, well, a bitch.
And she's feeling all GGG about herself, shit! I'm so GGG Dan, thanks sooo much buddy!
'Maybe even the same escort', because she did it with a straight face and didn't laugh at them.
I hope she reads all this.
82
And I almost forgot, the MMF 3 some, GOOD LUCK FINDING A MAN TO HAVE A NON- PENETRATIVE ADVENTURE WITH!
84
Handjob, getting tickled by a feather, railing the third with a dildo?!? Yea especially that 3rd option, that's almost as good as fucking her.
You are an idiot, and do not have a dick, obviously.
And thanks Karey, it's true, I seem to meet women who want me that I'm not interested in.
You are an idiot, and do not have a dick, obviously.
And thanks Karey, it's true, I seem to meet women who want me that I'm not interested in.
85
I just want to weigh in on the side of GGG. She pushed herself outside of her comfort zone in order to satisfy her boyfriend - AND herself; and she and her boyfriend both went about it in such a way that they alleviated any possible damage to the relationship overall had the threesome not turned out to be as much fun as anticipated, or in case any insecurities reared their ugly heads. Good on her boyfriend for being respectful and putting her feelings and the good of the long-term relationship ahead some one-time penetration. Good on GGG for putting the good of the long-term relationship ahead of any fears and insecurities she may have had about this threesome.
Also; to you jerks railing about how non-penetrative sex is boring and isn't "real" sex, and how lame this threesome was, I can only be thankful that I will never have sex with any of you. Talk about a high school attitude. I hope no woman ever gives you a threesome; or any sex at all for that matter. You are the losers who think women are sexual receptacles and nothing more, and as such, you will always miss out on having as good of sex as you could had you paid attention to your partner and considered her feelings and fantasies as well as your own.
Congrats, GGG, and pay no attention to the jealous idiots sending needless negativity your way.
Also; to you jerks railing about how non-penetrative sex is boring and isn't "real" sex, and how lame this threesome was, I can only be thankful that I will never have sex with any of you. Talk about a high school attitude. I hope no woman ever gives you a threesome; or any sex at all for that matter. You are the losers who think women are sexual receptacles and nothing more, and as such, you will always miss out on having as good of sex as you could had you paid attention to your partner and considered her feelings and fantasies as well as your own.
Congrats, GGG, and pay no attention to the jealous idiots sending needless negativity your way.
86
I can't believe the hating in the comments. As @72 put it, most of you have never negotiated beyond girl on top sex. Does the boyfriend possibly want more? Who the fuck doesn't? I'd like it if my boyfriend let me have free reign to fuck anyone I want while he remains faithful and monogamous. But guess what? We live in reality where a good, healthy relationship is about boundaries and compromise. THAT'S what GGG is about, not letting your SO do anything he wants to deserve that "gold girlfriend star."
88
i read this letter several times, and like some i am confused about the third party having very little to do, no penetration, oral, anal etc etc
Well my lady and I also wanted a threesome, and she too put down some rules, but the rules were radically different
she said no mouth on the other woman's private parts, but almost anything else was allowed, and it went well...we both enjoyed and learned for our own pleasure with each other, having my balls licked etc while penetrating the other lady was under scribeable. also my lady loved her body being kissed and felt by the other female and then being able to say goodnight to the third party so we could make love alone afterwards
Well my lady and I also wanted a threesome, and she too put down some rules, but the rules were radically different
she said no mouth on the other woman's private parts, but almost anything else was allowed, and it went well...we both enjoyed and learned for our own pleasure with each other, having my balls licked etc while penetrating the other lady was under scribeable. also my lady loved her body being kissed and felt by the other female and then being able to say goodnight to the third party so we could make love alone afterwards
89
I was the third person in a threesome like that once. The "other F" was a close friend of a few years, and I'd gotten to know "M" after they got together. He claimed he'd had a dream about the three-way to other-F (who was bi and attracted to me to start with) so she suggested it to me. I thought it was a terrible idea. Fortunately I changed my mind when she brought it up again a couple months later.
There was no penetrative sex on my end, but there was plently else going on. It ended with them fucking while M ate me out. I enjoyed it, and I got thanked afterwards by both of them so presumably they enjoyed it :) Unfortunately their relationship was falling to pieces due to other reasons and it was not a repeat event.
I don't know about the rest of the people on this forum, but I don't have "penetrative sex" (yeah, including oral) on a first date with someone, partly for STD reasons and partially emotional-intimacy reasons, so to me it seems perfectly reasonable to call penetrative sex off-limits for a first three-way.
There was no penetrative sex on my end, but there was plently else going on. It ended with them fucking while M ate me out. I enjoyed it, and I got thanked afterwards by both of them so presumably they enjoyed it :) Unfortunately their relationship was falling to pieces due to other reasons and it was not a repeat event.
I don't know about the rest of the people on this forum, but I don't have "penetrative sex" (yeah, including oral) on a first date with someone, partly for STD reasons and partially emotional-intimacy reasons, so to me it seems perfectly reasonable to call penetrative sex off-limits for a first three-way.
91
Another thought: I've noticed my fantasies need to be a lot more intense, to get me off or even get me aroused, than actual sex. They're much more penentration-focused as well. When I'm actually making out/having sex, I'm often surprised at how much effect little, "not-really-sex" things like having my nipples touched actually have.
Since so many of the comments are "I'd find a threesome without penetration really lame" rather than "I tried that", maybe it's one of those fantasy vs reality things?
Since so many of the comments are "I'd find a threesome without penetration really lame" rather than "I tried that", maybe it's one of those fantasy vs reality things?
92
91 comments and not one person thinks that the "no penetration on the pro" is just a safe sex issue? If you want to avoid contracting an STD, boyfriend should be wearing different condoms every time he wants to switch women (otherwise any germs from woman #1 that get on the outside of his wrapped up package go right... inside woman #2).
Though she should be taking care of herself, you have to assume that a pro is going to have been exposed to a lot more than a single, trustworthy, monogamous sexual partner.
Though she should be taking care of herself, you have to assume that a pro is going to have been exposed to a lot more than a single, trustworthy, monogamous sexual partner.
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