Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, March 16, 2010
Homo Constance McMillen Is Back in Fulton, Mississippi, Is Super Grateful for Your Support, and Wants You to Be Nice
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:09 PM
Constance McMillen is back in Fulton, Mississippi, after spending a few days in New York City doing media. Today the ACLU asked the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Mississippi to issue an injunction that would prevent the Itawamba County School District from canceling Itawamba Agricultural High's prom and asked the court to prevent the school from barring Constance and her girlfriend from attending prom. We spoke by phone earlier today:
Did you expect any of this? The national attention?When it first started, I just wanted to take my girlfriend to prom, you know? I thought it might make the local news and maybe help future LGBT students at Itawamba because hopefully they wouldn’t have to put up with what I did. I sure didn't expect any of this kind of attention.
It seems remarkable—at least from outside—that you have the support of your family.
If I didn’t have the support from my family that I have, my goodness, there’s no way, no way, I would be doing this. I've been out to them since eighth grade. And, you know, they don’t agree with it, but they’re going to love me regardless and they're going to support me regardless. They’re not going to hate me or shun me. But personally they don’t believe in it.
- Constance McMillen and Her Father
Why not?
Because they’re Christians. They think that being Christian means they can't say it's okay. My grandmother doesn't believe in it, I know that, but she supports me anyway. I don’t know how my daddy feels about religion.
Are you a Christian?
Yes, I am.
How do you feel about all the support you've received from around the world?
Honestly it's giving me an extra push. Anytime I feel like this is too hard, I think about the support I'm getting. And I’m just ecstatic that so many people would come together like this. I never dreamed there could be so much support out there for me. It’s just amazing. I’m so thankful.
How is it being back in Fulton?
The locals don’t like me, but I can’t help it. And things were really hostile in school last week after they cancelled prom. People were rude, and if people talked to me at all it was real short answers. There are a few people who are with me, my real friends, people who are intelligent enough to realize what's really going on here. But the majority are not on my side.
Are you nervous about classes resuming next week?
No, I’m not. I don’t really care what people think. If it’s untrue, then I care. What I did, I would do it the same way all over again. Because I think it’s important. And I’m not worried. If they’re going to be like that, not talk to me, or ask me about it, if they’re just going to talk to me behind my back, I can't be concerned with that.
What is Teresa McNeece, the superintendent of Itawamba schools, like? Have you had any personal interactions with her? How does she treat you?
I don’t have a personal problem with anyone in the administration personally. Ms. McNeece is nice to talk to, but she’s kind of uptight, very conservative. Which is crazy because she’s got a daughter who’s not much older than me. I would think she’d be used to things of this generation, things of my generation, the differences and the diversity. But I guess she’s not.
And Itawamba Agricultural High School principal Trae Wiygul?
He’s very uptight, and he’s very country, a conservative Christian. But Ms. McNeece and Mr. Wiygul have both treated me very respectfully when I've talked with them.
I've encouraged my readers and listeners to get in touch with Ms. McNeece and Mr. Wiygul. Any advice for folks who are sitting down to write letters?
If they’re going to write to them or the school board, they should please be respectful. No one hears if you’re screaming and mad and cussing and stuff. Tell them exactly how you feel, but in a respectful way. That’s what they need to hear—they need to hear how all sorts of Americans feel about what they’ve done.
Hm... screaming and cussing and stuff have always worked for me. But let's take Constance's advice and be nice when we write to Superintendent McNeece and Principal Wiygul. Their numbers and email addresses once again:
Superintendent Teresa McNeece
tmcneece@itawamba.k12.ms.us
phone (662) 862-2159 Ext. 14
fax (662) 862-4713Principal Trae Wiygul
twiygul@itawamba.k12.ms.us
(662) 862-3104
Let 'em hear from you. Then join the Facebook group "Let Constance Take Her Girlfriend to Prom" by clicking here. Then make a tax-deductible donation to support Constance's ACLU LGBT Project team by clicking here.
1
No money until there is some proof that a girlfriend actually exists. Nigerian princesses don't count.
2
@1, Constance is such a class act compared to you. Or most anyone else. I'd be proud to have a daughter like her.
3
@1 Dickhead
As for...
"And, you know, they don’t agree with it, but they’re going to love me regardless and they're going to support me regardless. They’re not going to hate me or shun me. But personally they don’t believe in it."
That made me smile.
As for...
"And, you know, they don’t agree with it, but they’re going to love me regardless and they're going to support me regardless. They’re not going to hate me or shun me. But personally they don’t believe in it."
That made me smile.
4
A school system with values that messed up is lucky to have turned out a young woman that reasonable, well-spoken, and together. Kudos to her family for that.
5
Just two first person references: Record low for a Savage blog or article, even considering that this was interview in which other person did the talking.
Just two first person references: Record low for a Savage blog or article, even considering that this was interview in which other person did the talking.
6
I think her family is a wonderful description of the word 'tolerance'. They don't have to agree with the lifestyle (I personally think it's fine, but they don't have to), but they still support Constance, because she's their daughter and a person and stuff.
I think if we all strive for this definition of tolerance, instead of a definition which either makes homosexuality 'decriminalized but second class' or a definition which requires whole hearted endorsement, we will succeed rapidly in achieving full rights for homosexuals.
I think if we all strive for this definition of tolerance, instead of a definition which either makes homosexuality 'decriminalized but second class' or a definition which requires whole hearted endorsement, we will succeed rapidly in achieving full rights for homosexuals.
7
I keep coming across comments about how Constance is "just doing this for the attention" or publicity or whatnot.
I don't think it's true, but say, for argument's sake, that it is?
Entire bigoted Itawamba County School District just got played by an 18-year-old girl. How do you not love that?
I don't think it's true, but say, for argument's sake, that it is?
Entire bigoted Itawamba County School District just got played by an 18-year-old girl. How do you not love that?
9
"Hm... screaming and cussing and stuff have always worked for me"
Wow - She is so mature Dan - you should try to rise her level of maturity
Wow - She is so mature Dan - you should try to rise her level of maturity
10
Constance is a gracious and very impressive person. She's got a great future, unlike most of her dimwitted classmates.
11
Run to the coastal city of your choice, Constance! There are reasonable, rational people out there. We still have some wackos, but the scales are tipped in our favor.
12
Sounds like her family has a clearer idea of Christ's message than a lot of the so-called "Christian leaders" do. Who knew unconditional love was so radical?
13
I'm curious if her family doesn't "agree" because they still believe it is a choice and not innate. Or do they just disagree that she accepts it and dates girls, instead of resigning herself to celibacy or trying to make it work with boys?
Either way, kudos to them for being open enough to allow her to come out so young and being strong enough to weather this.
Either way, kudos to them for being open enough to allow her to come out so young and being strong enough to weather this.
14
I hope she and her friends ditch Fulton and take the New Orleans prom offer. Screw some prom in a gym full of people who don't understand and are unwilling to budge. Party it up in a better town, girl.
15
Constance is absolutely right, people don't listen when they are screamed at. Politeness cost nothing but pays much. She is an examplary young lady with remarkable poise.
I think it's a shame Christians have taken one line from Leviticus so seriously/literal when Jesus desired us to
"Love one another as I have loved you." He didn't say "with the following exceptions."
I think it's a shame Christians have taken one line from Leviticus so seriously/literal when Jesus desired us to
"Love one another as I have loved you." He didn't say "with the following exceptions."
16
Ditto @ 10. I watched a couple of her interviews in the various media outlets, and was quite impressed. Constance, if you're reading these comments (I assume you are), much love and luck to you now, and in the future.
Meanwhile, I noticed that HRC, that wonderful organization that is supposed to champion GLBT rights and issues, FINALLY mentioned this case in a mass e-mailing today. Of course they asked for a donation. I've come to believe HRC belongs in the same category as the batshit crazy televangelists.
Meanwhile, I noticed that HRC, that wonderful organization that is supposed to champion GLBT rights and issues, FINALLY mentioned this case in a mass e-mailing today. Of course they asked for a donation. I've come to believe HRC belongs in the same category as the batshit crazy televangelists.
17
Matt @10 is right. Prom is one night, senior year in high school is just a year. She's learned more from somewhere in her life than all that country high school has to offer times a hundred. Ten years from now none of this will matter, when her fear-driven classmates are working at Wal-Mart and she's somewhere far away doing something fabulous.
You're a peach, Ms. McMillen.
You're a peach, Ms. McMillen.
18
@14 and other similar- Constance made it clear on the Wanda Sykes show that she plans to attend college in her home state, then perhaps move to Tennessee when done. No big coastal cities in her plans.
Not every small/hick-town raised LGBT person feels the need for the anonimity cities provide, and would rather take their chances with a few supportive friends and family and remain with the familiar. I had to leave my hometown for 15 years to get on my feet, but then I came back.
It's a credit to Constance and her generation that being LGBT is no longer such a strange extreme that she can feel comfortable, despite all this notoriety, to remain in her hometown and state.
Not every small/hick-town raised LGBT person feels the need for the anonimity cities provide, and would rather take their chances with a few supportive friends and family and remain with the familiar. I had to leave my hometown for 15 years to get on my feet, but then I came back.
It's a credit to Constance and her generation that being LGBT is no longer such a strange extreme that she can feel comfortable, despite all this notoriety, to remain in her hometown and state.
19
"I'm really calling for massive retaliation"
"we have to come down hard on this school"
"Not just because of what's going on at school but so that administrators, and school boards
and superintendents and principals at other high schools" ....
"will think twice about this kind of BS"
"will remember what happened" .... "and think twice"
"We're going to be in you fucking face principal Wygold and superintendent McNeece"
- from dan Savage's podcast.
"we have to come down hard on this school"
"Not just because of what's going on at school but so that administrators, and school boards
and superintendents and principals at other high schools" ....
"will think twice about this kind of BS"
"will remember what happened" .... "and think twice"
"We're going to be in you fucking face principal Wygold and superintendent McNeece"
- from dan Savage's podcast.
22
It's always worked for you because you're screaming at people who already agree with you. Be nice.
23
It's always worked for you because you're screaming at people who already agree with you. Be nice.
24
@15 I am confused over and over by that, not just in their treatment of gays, but also towards healthcare and social welfare...
27
@15, @24, note that Constance identifies as Christian too: a fresh reminder "they" are not all the same and oughtn't be lumped together, which I wish could go without saying.
28
@18
I'm not saying she needs to move out of the state. Hell, I live in Kansas, a state that's not particularly known for its forward thinking, and I can attest that so-called "backwards" states are more diverse than people realize -- and that it's better when people in the LGBT community can feel comfortable about living in their hometown or state.
However, this is PROM we're talking about. One night of Constance's life. And she's been offered the chance to live it up in a party city. It's great that she's standing up for herself, and of course the principle of the matter will probably win out if the school board reverses its decision. But come on, prom in a swanky hotel with people you like is leaps and bounds above prom in a gym that smells of feet surrounded by people who sneered at you "for ruining prom, yo!"
So my advice still stands: If the school board holds its ground, go dance in New Orleans.
I'm not saying she needs to move out of the state. Hell, I live in Kansas, a state that's not particularly known for its forward thinking, and I can attest that so-called "backwards" states are more diverse than people realize -- and that it's better when people in the LGBT community can feel comfortable about living in their hometown or state.
However, this is PROM we're talking about. One night of Constance's life. And she's been offered the chance to live it up in a party city. It's great that she's standing up for herself, and of course the principle of the matter will probably win out if the school board reverses its decision. But come on, prom in a swanky hotel with people you like is leaps and bounds above prom in a gym that smells of feet surrounded by people who sneered at you "for ruining prom, yo!"
So my advice still stands: If the school board holds its ground, go dance in New Orleans.
29
@15:
Unfortunately, a lot of the time they don't listen to you when you're polite, either. The key is finding the right modulation of intensity (which can be passionate and forceful without being loud) that DOES get and hold their attention; in other words, emphatic.
Unfortunately, a lot of the time they don't listen to you when you're polite, either. The key is finding the right modulation of intensity (which can be passionate and forceful without being loud) that DOES get and hold their attention; in other words, emphatic.
30
What Constance McMillen who, you know, is actually involved, had to say:
"I just wanted to take my girlfriend to prom"
"Anytime I feel like this is too hard, I think about the support I'm getting. And I’m just ecstatic that so many people would come together like this. I never dreamed there could be so much support out there for me. It’s just amazing. I’m so thankful."
"Things were really hostile in school last week after they cancelled prom."
The school board "need to hear how all sorts of Americans feel about what they’ve done."
So why don't you shove that up your ass, Loveschild?
"I just wanted to take my girlfriend to prom"
"Anytime I feel like this is too hard, I think about the support I'm getting. And I’m just ecstatic that so many people would come together like this. I never dreamed there could be so much support out there for me. It’s just amazing. I’m so thankful."
"Things were really hostile in school last week after they cancelled prom."
The school board "need to hear how all sorts of Americans feel about what they’ve done."
So why don't you shove that up your ass, Loveschild?
31
These are the same crackers who still dream of a segregated society. Constance is doing a great service to the rest of the country, but things in Mississippi never change: least educated, poorest and most obese state in the country.
32
Loveschild, Dan reacted pretty much how I would if the school decided to (say) ban Catholics from prom. I'd send hatemail, I'd picket, I'd try to get administrators fired -- because that's one way to show that our society doesn't tolerate bigotry. Dan's not under any moral obligation to be polite to alleged grownups who marginalize and mistreat a teenager under their care.
McMillen has since made it clear she wants people to keep it civil -- good for her! I think that shows a lot of wisdom on her part, and I hope people respect her wishes. But before she said so, going apeshit was certainly an appropriate response. I don't think we need to be moderate in trying to protect kids.
McMillen has since made it clear she wants people to keep it civil -- good for her! I think that shows a lot of wisdom on her part, and I hope people respect her wishes. But before she said so, going apeshit was certainly an appropriate response. I don't think we need to be moderate in trying to protect kids.
33
#1 HOW DARE YOU! I am a Nigerian Princess and I think I do count. I'm also a Queen to some. To others well I'm just me. But it really hurt that comment you made.
Constance can have half my kingdom, #1 you get the sewer system.
This case again shows how far America has to go to make a clear line between itself and the Taliban.
Constance can have half my kingdom, #1 you get the sewer system.
This case again shows how far America has to go to make a clear line between itself and the Taliban.
35
This story never ceased to amaze me, the depths of intelligence and kindness this young women displays, and in contrast the shear hatred her very existence seem to bring out in others.
Every time I read interviews with her, I just cry again and again.
Keep up what you're doing Ms. McMillen. They don't know it yet, but you are dragging your classmates and fellow towns-people into the modern age, it is in a sense a rebirth, and birth is almost always full of screaming and pain.
Much love from up here in Canada, please don't ever stop being you.
Every time I read interviews with her, I just cry again and again.
Keep up what you're doing Ms. McMillen. They don't know it yet, but you are dragging your classmates and fellow towns-people into the modern age, it is in a sense a rebirth, and birth is almost always full of screaming and pain.
Much love from up here in Canada, please don't ever stop being you.
36
I do think people should let the school have it, and get up in their faces. But I also wrote this in my very first post about Constance:
So I was calling for respectful letting-'em-have-it from the very first post, LC. Thank you for playing Slog.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
Keep it respectful, Sloggers, but let her have it. CC me on any e-mails you send to McNeece. I will compile and post 'em to Slog...
Keep it respectful, but let them hear from you.
So I was calling for respectful letting-'em-have-it from the very first post, LC. Thank you for playing Slog.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
37
A true Christian is not about telling others what to feel. There are not many true Christians. Most "Christians" don't really follow the tenets of the religion. God must not mind homosexuals; he/she made so many. Her parents are to be commended for not going to pieces over her choice.
38
@36: Screw you and your on-the-record facts, Dan. Loveschild worked very hard to paint this narrative and he'll be damned if he's going to let you and your facts destroy that hard work.
40
"I don’t know how my daddy feels about religion."
What?
This is exactly how it should be. Religion should be a private thing, and it should be an adult thing. He obviously doesn't feel the need to force his religious beliefs on his children, and he clearly doesn't feel the need to allow some religion to dictate to him how he treats his daughter.
What?
This is exactly how it should be. Religion should be a private thing, and it should be an adult thing. He obviously doesn't feel the need to force his religious beliefs on his children, and he clearly doesn't feel the need to allow some religion to dictate to him how he treats his daughter.
41
LC, you seem really involved in things you don't support. Maybe you need to volunteer your time spent trolling slog doing something beneficial. I suggest giving your time to Treehouse, a local organization that benefits foster kids. Volunteer hours spent there make a difference in a child's life, whereas constantly stirring up trouble on slog doesn't benefit anyone anywhere.
42
Dan, was Constance aware of any updates from the ACLU or if they are in talks with the school board? Any news on an alternative prom? I know there were offers made but I was curious if she commented on any of this.
LOL Bacon. IMO FWIW, I liked the fake LC better! I want 'it' back.
LOL Bacon. IMO FWIW, I liked the fake LC better! I want 'it' back.
43
news flash for everyone: i'm from this area originally -i live in the modern world, now, thankyoujeezus - and both my parents were educators in the area all their working lives. here are the facts:
1. it is still the fifties in Itawamba, except they have wal-mart and Taco Bell. Chrahst is Lord and wal-mart is king.
2. the entire system is controlled by the proverbial Good ol' Boys network. just like you see on TV. not kidding.
3. they DO NOT CARE what a bunch of "hippie lib'rul faggots" think. anyone different *in any way* is liable for societal shunning and/or possible public burning at the stake.
i'm not exaggerating. there are very good reasons that this area of the country suffers continual and consistent brain drain.
there are two things that will save the situation.
(a) if the school system decides to go ahead and have the prom, and allow anyone to attend, no questions asked. they won't do this on their own, because in addition to congenital stupidity, they're absolutely mulish about their convictions, even when they know perfectly well they're in the wrong. and the ACLU can't force them to do it. they don't have a good enough case: it's simply not the responsibility of the school to provide a prom and they haven't done anything overt enough to be called retaliatory. that leaves:
(b) someone from outside - i'm looking at ellen because she's the most obvious, but any corporate sponsor dwelling in modern reality with the rest of us will do - will have to swoop in and host it themselves, complete with chaperones and all the rest of the foofaraw. i'd be rooting for them to charge money for any of the school boardmembers responsible for this bullshit parade to attend, or ban them outright, but any and all students who'd otherwise be allowed to attend should be allowed at no cost.
i don't think that latter option is going to happen either, due to various liability and other CYA factors. so this will fade away and die, eventually, with no resolution; and the next time one of these discriminatory cases happens somewhere it isn't *expected*, like new jersey or Heaven-Forfend-San-Francisco, it will get exactly zero coverage because it isn't Sexy News.
More...
1. it is still the fifties in Itawamba, except they have wal-mart and Taco Bell. Chrahst is Lord and wal-mart is king.
2. the entire system is controlled by the proverbial Good ol' Boys network. just like you see on TV. not kidding.
3. they DO NOT CARE what a bunch of "hippie lib'rul faggots" think. anyone different *in any way* is liable for societal shunning and/or possible public burning at the stake.
i'm not exaggerating. there are very good reasons that this area of the country suffers continual and consistent brain drain.
there are two things that will save the situation.
(a) if the school system decides to go ahead and have the prom, and allow anyone to attend, no questions asked. they won't do this on their own, because in addition to congenital stupidity, they're absolutely mulish about their convictions, even when they know perfectly well they're in the wrong. and the ACLU can't force them to do it. they don't have a good enough case: it's simply not the responsibility of the school to provide a prom and they haven't done anything overt enough to be called retaliatory. that leaves:
(b) someone from outside - i'm looking at ellen because she's the most obvious, but any corporate sponsor dwelling in modern reality with the rest of us will do - will have to swoop in and host it themselves, complete with chaperones and all the rest of the foofaraw. i'd be rooting for them to charge money for any of the school boardmembers responsible for this bullshit parade to attend, or ban them outright, but any and all students who'd otherwise be allowed to attend should be allowed at no cost.
i don't think that latter option is going to happen either, due to various liability and other CYA factors. so this will fade away and die, eventually, with no resolution; and the next time one of these discriminatory cases happens somewhere it isn't *expected*, like new jersey or Heaven-Forfend-San-Francisco, it will get exactly zero coverage because it isn't Sexy News.
44
@2,9
My reaction exactly - Constance is, by far, more mature than Dan and an example for everybody.
@12
OMG- You mean, like, some Christians are behaving in a good way?! But it's impossible coz they're all bigots! ..Must be driving Dan nuts.
@27
EXACTLY.
My reaction exactly - Constance is, by far, more mature than Dan and an example for everybody.
@12
OMG- You mean, like, some Christians are behaving in a good way?! But it's impossible coz they're all bigots! ..Must be driving Dan nuts.
@27
EXACTLY.
45
Expressing outrage isn't synonymous with being abusive or obscene. One recalls the Civil Rights Movement and the activites of organizations like SNCC and Core. The foundation of oppression is in its quiet toleration, a willingness and even a desire to put injustice out of sight and therefore out of mind. Conversely, the action of a campaign for civil rights (whether it be for an individual or an entire race), is about forcing both society at large and those specifically responsible for perpetrating injustice to confront the terrible, ugly truth of what they are doing. That is to say, to get in their faces. And it's all the more effective when done with dignity and maturity. It serves to contrast the nobility of one's cause with the pettiness of the the oppressors.
48
Ms. McMillen, you do your family, us, and your faith proud. I wish you every success and peace.
Dan, screaming and cussing aside, you do us proud and reflect what I would describe as the passion for justice and the compassion of God. No offense intended. I know if I was Ms. McMillen's parents I'd appreciate your support and consider you a gift to my family.
Take care all.
Dan, screaming and cussing aside, you do us proud and reflect what I would describe as the passion for justice and the compassion of God. No offense intended. I know if I was Ms. McMillen's parents I'd appreciate your support and consider you a gift to my family.
Take care all.
49
Really, Gus, I get tired of people bashing Dan here. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. And that especially goes for you, Confluence.
50
Thanks to this loveschild person, I found out Dan has a podcast. Yay! I'm not a regular reader, but I plan to read (and listen!) more often now. Thanks, loveschild! I'm off to download it now.
53
In either case, 51, 43 isn't quite right. The ACLU might not be able to force the school to reinstate the prom, but the courts can, and the ACLU has a pretty damn good case that what the school is doing by preventing McMillen and her girlfriend from attending the prom together and preventing McMillen from wearing a tuxedo is a violation of their First Amendment rights. The school must clearly demonstrate that the girls' presence and McMillen wearing a tux would "materially and substantially interfere with school discipline," but it's a very narrow definition: arguing that the negative reaction of the other kids, or some other group, would be disruptive would not suffice. Nor would an argument regarding McMillen's safety. In fact, the courts have found that even "reasonably forecast disruption" is not justification for prior restraint of expression by students of their First Amendment rights.
54
I'm very impressed with Constance, and I would very much like for those of us who support her to follow her lead and her wishes. That being said, I'm a little alarmed at some of what I'm seeing here. I see words like "cracker" and "backward" and "uneducated" and "neanderthal." I hear people urging Constance to leave her home town and "get thee to a coastal city." And, ironically, I hear people screaming the word "bigotry", apparently without any awareness of their own. The folks there in Alabama are just like any of us anywhere. They are in the midst of finding out that gay people are just like any of us anywhere. It's a painful process, and in the midst of that process many of them will say and do things that they will later realize are not consistent with their Christian beliefs. Keep the pressure on them, but do it a little bit gently, and with a little bit of humility. There will be a tipping point, as happened with race in this country (yes, still a work in progress, but MUCH better than it was even 40 years ago), and as happened with Catholics and the Irish (my people) before that. If we blindly make this just one more part of our national "Culture Wars" then we will drive the very people we are trying to convince to be more tolerant into a defensive posture and a siege mentality. And enough of the bigoted anti-rural commentary, please! Constance, stay with your people if you can. It's hard, but that's the only way that real, lasting change ever takes place. The folks in your home town don't even know yet how much they need you, or how proud they will be one day that you are one of theirs!
55
The contrast is really remarkable between Constance, who would like people advocating for her to be respectful, and the internet tough guys filling the comment threads on places like yahoo and digg who are open about wanting nothing more than seeing a teenage girl physically assaulted by her peers...
56
This poor kid. Tolerence, growing up knowing your family "tolerates" you. Wow, and that consideration comes before loving their own child. Oh, thank you christian values for creating this twisted situation because you are small minded asses. This poor girl is not safe in her community, she is not safe in America at large.
Who was the ass from the "better business bureau", I could say the same thing about money given to churches who don't pay propety taxes in this nation, sending money for 9/11, sending money for Haiti. all you stupid christians support that without thinking, oh, thats right you don't think. I hope she gets the hell out of there and away from her "tolerant" family, Jesus.
Who was the ass from the "better business bureau", I could say the same thing about money given to churches who don't pay propety taxes in this nation, sending money for 9/11, sending money for Haiti. all you stupid christians support that without thinking, oh, thats right you don't think. I hope she gets the hell out of there and away from her "tolerant" family, Jesus.
58
The school board and administration seem to have hoped peer pressure would cause Constance to back down. Instead, it seems to have brought disrepute to the district, community, state and a region of our country. Where was it James Meredith had to be escorted into a "public" university by an armed force?
59
I'm glad to hear that the superintendent is at least polite to Constance. The superintendent hasn't said much, so we can only hope that she's trying to be open-minded and will do the right thing soon. Nonetheless, have you ever seen 211 words with as little content as her welcome statement on the district website? (http://www.itawambacountyschools.com/sta…) They don't suggest a deep thinker.
63
I LOVE YOU Constance! In that "I don't really know you but I respect and appreciate you" Christian-y kinda love way ven though I'm an atheist.
And kudos to Dan for bringing this whole thing to our attention last week - I agree, let's make damned sure any other school that might wanna get stupid gets the message: "Listen up, mofos, you pull this shit, you gonna pay."
And kudos to Dan for bringing this whole thing to our attention last week - I agree, let's make damned sure any other school that might wanna get stupid gets the message: "Listen up, mofos, you pull this shit, you gonna pay."
65
People being mean and rude to her sucks, BUT: compared to the reactions that people have often faced in other cases, if that's the worst of it (i.e. no violence, no vandalism, no threats) than it's actually a sign of progress.
In any event, she's been terrific. Hope everything works out well for Constance.
In any event, she's been terrific. Hope everything works out well for Constance.
66
Here's what I sent to the principal (the superintendent's email got sent back to me with permanent email errors):
Dear Ms. McNeece and Mr. Wiygul:
I am writing on behalf of Constance McMillen, a student at your institution, who has openly asked to dress in traditionally masculine formal wear and bring her girlfriend to prom. Although I am not a resident of Mississippi, I have read about the action your school has taken against this from happening through internet resources.
I am not going to ask you to agree to her decisions, nor am I going to point out any constitutional rights that have probably been sent to you through letters and e-mails countless times by this point. However, I would like to ask about the statement released from your school board on March 10, 2010. In theory, if the prom had not been cancelled and Constance was allowed to come to the prom with a date of the same gender and formal wear traditionally meant for males, it would interfere with the "education, safety and well being of [your] students."
Education at a prom is a non-issue as I see it. Prom is generally intended to make one last fond memory with the class you grew up with and to have fun. This particular event, while being traditionally hosted by the school, has nothing to do with academia. A high school is not only a place to learn, but also a place to foster growth and make friendships. By disallowing Constance to attend as previously stated, you are officially ostricizing her. By cancelling prom, you are denying her (and every other student) the final bonding time these students have together before they graduate. If there is a private prom, Constance will likely be turned away because of the example your school board has already set.
Safety, however, is an issue at prom. Generally this means making sure nobody is intoxicated (especially while driving) or armed. The sexuality and formal wear of a student does not have the potential to harm anyone. However, when you set an example that the LGBTQA community is officially not accepted at your institution, you are setting an example not only the student body, but the families of these students as well as the rest of your town. When people are regarded as outsiders, it is easier for people to make disparaging comments about them and commit hate crimes against them. Please, please, please do not allow this to happen.
Well being comes from being able to accept yourself as an individual cognitively, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, and physically. By disallowing Constance to bring her girlfriend to prom and dress as desired (within the formal wear category for the occasion while being decently covered), you are denying the well being of this student. By cancelling prom when the ACLU contacted you, you are further harming this student by putting more social pressure on her than was there already. Again, she is being ostracized by her classmates because your school board officially declared the prom was cancelled after being put under legal pressure. This, to a still-developing mind might be misconstrued as Constance being the reason for prom being cancelled.
For the education, safety, and well being of your students, please consider having your prom. Also, please consider allowing Constance (and all other students) to dress in whatever formal wear they desire, so long as it does not show any inappropriate body parts, and to bring whomever they desire.
Sincerely,
----------
More...
Dear Ms. McNeece and Mr. Wiygul:
I am writing on behalf of Constance McMillen, a student at your institution, who has openly asked to dress in traditionally masculine formal wear and bring her girlfriend to prom. Although I am not a resident of Mississippi, I have read about the action your school has taken against this from happening through internet resources.
I am not going to ask you to agree to her decisions, nor am I going to point out any constitutional rights that have probably been sent to you through letters and e-mails countless times by this point. However, I would like to ask about the statement released from your school board on March 10, 2010. In theory, if the prom had not been cancelled and Constance was allowed to come to the prom with a date of the same gender and formal wear traditionally meant for males, it would interfere with the "education, safety and well being of [your] students."
Education at a prom is a non-issue as I see it. Prom is generally intended to make one last fond memory with the class you grew up with and to have fun. This particular event, while being traditionally hosted by the school, has nothing to do with academia. A high school is not only a place to learn, but also a place to foster growth and make friendships. By disallowing Constance to attend as previously stated, you are officially ostricizing her. By cancelling prom, you are denying her (and every other student) the final bonding time these students have together before they graduate. If there is a private prom, Constance will likely be turned away because of the example your school board has already set.
Safety, however, is an issue at prom. Generally this means making sure nobody is intoxicated (especially while driving) or armed. The sexuality and formal wear of a student does not have the potential to harm anyone. However, when you set an example that the LGBTQA community is officially not accepted at your institution, you are setting an example not only the student body, but the families of these students as well as the rest of your town. When people are regarded as outsiders, it is easier for people to make disparaging comments about them and commit hate crimes against them. Please, please, please do not allow this to happen.
Well being comes from being able to accept yourself as an individual cognitively, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, and physically. By disallowing Constance to bring her girlfriend to prom and dress as desired (within the formal wear category for the occasion while being decently covered), you are denying the well being of this student. By cancelling prom when the ACLU contacted you, you are further harming this student by putting more social pressure on her than was there already. Again, she is being ostracized by her classmates because your school board officially declared the prom was cancelled after being put under legal pressure. This, to a still-developing mind might be misconstrued as Constance being the reason for prom being cancelled.
For the education, safety, and well being of your students, please consider having your prom. Also, please consider allowing Constance (and all other students) to dress in whatever formal wear they desire, so long as it does not show any inappropriate body parts, and to bring whomever they desire.
Sincerely,
----------
67
It really takes some guts to come forward and challenge ANYTHING you are up against. MANY PEOPLE DO THAT and for more noble causes. Taking a stand against for or in pro of ANYTHING...does not necessarily make you right, does not necessarily give you the right to change what is in the best interest of the mayority. So people: please don't be so quick to celebrate this girl and make her a hero, only because she is gutsy,proper,educated,well spoken, a victim? I don't think she is. How do I know she is not confused? At age 18 EVERYBODY IS CONFUSED.....Constance may or may not be the exception. Many adolescents go trough their teen years thinking they will learn by trying different things many gays/lesbians have started out that way, getting involved sexually with somebody of the same sex, due to: Alcohol,drugs,peer pressure,curiosity,thinking they will be considered "hot", become popular, to shock or to impress, to get even with boyfriends and many more stupid reasons. If you think she should be allowed free will to kiss and hug (to say the least) in front of teens who may still be very impressionable, when they are still forming their moral values, their minds and personalities, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that as the Educational and Legal Entity responsible for safeguarding the healthy growth process and education of hundreds of other kids, this one exception cannot be granted. If Schools allow their Constances to be "themselves" at prom, later at school, pretty soon other groups will want to be allowed to be "themselves too". Vgr. 1) HEY! We want our rights to be recognized too we are "2men&a Lady" and we love each other and want the right to hug and kiss each other at prom too! 2) Wait! My sister and I love & like each other since 8th grade...we want the right to do the same! 3) Wait a moment: Can my father and I be together at Prom too? I'm 18 already and I declare I have the right to be at prom and hug and kiss with him as boyfriend and girlfriend too! But I love him!..... What is next?..... Anybody and a Minor?
(can you imagine this?) Is this the atmosphere you want your OWN children to grow up in?
UNTIL SHE IS OLDER AND MATURE, THE CONSTANCES OF THIS WORLD SHOULD WAIT AND UNDERSTAND THEMSELVES FIRST, IF IN FACT THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY OR CAN'T HELP IT TO BE THAT WAY OR SIMPLY WANT TO BE GAY/LESBIAN, I ACCEPT YOU ALL, I LOVE EACH ONE OF YOU, I ALWAYS HAVE... But do not force us and other innocent kids to see your behavior as normal. Do not rob the innocense off the mayority of these kids and show them the way toward a lifestyle that is not their choice to have. Just because "one" person thinks, may be, she is lesbian, OR that being lesbian is more important than being straight.
Well, to end this, Just as it is not normal for a Married man to kiss and hug other woman in public, anybody that knowingly allows it, is wrong, because is wrong for the wife, in Constance's case this behavior should not be allowed because is wrong to impose a behavior that we Parents decided is in detriment of the mayority of the kids in that school.
Constance: Use your common sense and don't do this to hundreds of other kids, just to have your way. Let them enjoy their best year of their lives without having to deal with pressures of this kind. Let us Parents choose what is best for them at least before they are 18. Go on into the adult behavior you prefer, but with a clean conscience that you did not affect any innocent child with it. Just because you are a human being I respect you and I love you, regardless of your sex, age, illness, race, creed or anything else. Now, to be really mature and responsible, go do the right thing. May God Bless you.
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(can you imagine this?) Is this the atmosphere you want your OWN children to grow up in?
UNTIL SHE IS OLDER AND MATURE, THE CONSTANCES OF THIS WORLD SHOULD WAIT AND UNDERSTAND THEMSELVES FIRST, IF IN FACT THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY OR CAN'T HELP IT TO BE THAT WAY OR SIMPLY WANT TO BE GAY/LESBIAN, I ACCEPT YOU ALL, I LOVE EACH ONE OF YOU, I ALWAYS HAVE... But do not force us and other innocent kids to see your behavior as normal. Do not rob the innocense off the mayority of these kids and show them the way toward a lifestyle that is not their choice to have. Just because "one" person thinks, may be, she is lesbian, OR that being lesbian is more important than being straight.
Well, to end this, Just as it is not normal for a Married man to kiss and hug other woman in public, anybody that knowingly allows it, is wrong, because is wrong for the wife, in Constance's case this behavior should not be allowed because is wrong to impose a behavior that we Parents decided is in detriment of the mayority of the kids in that school.
Constance: Use your common sense and don't do this to hundreds of other kids, just to have your way. Let them enjoy their best year of their lives without having to deal with pressures of this kind. Let us Parents choose what is best for them at least before they are 18. Go on into the adult behavior you prefer, but with a clean conscience that you did not affect any innocent child with it. Just because you are a human being I respect you and I love you, regardless of your sex, age, illness, race, creed or anything else. Now, to be really mature and responsible, go do the right thing. May God Bless you.
68
@ 67, I tried to read your turgid comment all the way through but gave up because you write in run-on sentences and made everything one frickin' paragraph. That makes for hard reading.
BUT... I did skim it. And I got enough to make this judgment: That you don't know what you're talking about.
I was going to write a lot more in the hopes of educating you, but I know from long experience that bloggers like you only post what you have to say and never stick around to read any responses. If you happen to prove me wrong I'll be glad to post my answer to you, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
BUT... I did skim it. And I got enough to make this judgment: That you don't know what you're talking about.
I was going to write a lot more in the hopes of educating you, but I know from long experience that bloggers like you only post what you have to say and never stick around to read any responses. If you happen to prove me wrong I'll be glad to post my answer to you, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
69
@67 I'm for real Matt. Please be free to think the way you like. That does not make you right. Think of who is really suffering here. A recommendation: If you want to keep my interest avoid pitty comments. Let's talk substance. I have about 15 more minutes and then I have to go to bed, still feel free to leave your comment (same to all) I will come back tomorrow.
71
Alright. Here's where you're wrong: You feel like something is being "forced" upon you.
Being gay or lesbian is an identity, not a behavior. Even if you think it's a choice (and you'd be wrong if you do), it's wrong to discriminate against someone because of their identity. Think of religion, for example. That certainly is a choice, but it's also an identity and that's why freedom of religion is protected in our nation.
Constance is a lesbian. That means that going to prom with her girlfriend is right, because that is who she is - a lesbian. You might ponder whether she's "going through a phase" but, having known many gays and lesbians over the years, it's really highly doubtful because all of them knew they were gay or lesbian long before senior year in high school. Not that that matters; even if it were a phase, it's who Constance is now, just like some of her peers may be Christian now and are wearing crosses but may decide in the future that they no longer believe in that.
As long as Constance is who she says she is, no one is being "forced" to do anything other than respect that. If you have a problem with that, then you are in the wrong, just as I would be if I told you (or any Christian) that they need to take that cross off their neck because I don't believe in their religion.
Being gay or lesbian is an identity, not a behavior. Even if you think it's a choice (and you'd be wrong if you do), it's wrong to discriminate against someone because of their identity. Think of religion, for example. That certainly is a choice, but it's also an identity and that's why freedom of religion is protected in our nation.
Constance is a lesbian. That means that going to prom with her girlfriend is right, because that is who she is - a lesbian. You might ponder whether she's "going through a phase" but, having known many gays and lesbians over the years, it's really highly doubtful because all of them knew they were gay or lesbian long before senior year in high school. Not that that matters; even if it were a phase, it's who Constance is now, just like some of her peers may be Christian now and are wearing crosses but may decide in the future that they no longer believe in that.
As long as Constance is who she says she is, no one is being "forced" to do anything other than respect that. If you have a problem with that, then you are in the wrong, just as I would be if I told you (or any Christian) that they need to take that cross off their neck because I don't believe in their religion.
72
It's the behavior that is displayed among gay and lesbian couples precisely what is offensive to most people, not their identity. Even straight couples out of line behavior can be offensive.
I have worked and as christian myself have served Lesbian/Gay couples in many different ways and never for one moment treated them differently, I did not even care. To me they are brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not hate ANYBODY and never will.
However, If the circumstances are such or if I am at a place where I see what I think is offensive behavior and I disagree or dislike, I, as an adult can get up and leave. Children or teens in school do not have that choice. We must seek to protect what is in the best interest of the mayority of them.
I honestly feel terrible that these groups have to deal with this difference. Because they suffer a lot throughout their lives. And that's exactly what we are trying to protect these children from. From ever believing that they can be gay or lesbian just because is "hot" or "cool"...A lot of them do not know what they are doing!
Most of us were very immature at that age...Let them grow up! even having sexual relationships at that age is not what is best for kids, they are so young, they are not responsible enough to risk bringing a baby into this world, nobody at this age has reached mental, spiritual or phsycological maturity yet .
If you know deep inside that you are gay/lesbian, regardless of your identity, you must seek to love all straight people too and learn to respect the honesty of our choice, it should also come natural to all, to seek to respect and protect minors.
One must wait to make a stand that will affect others so drastically, specially minors in a High school. Can they learn to respect that?. Why do they think it's only them who count?
(are my paragraphs better spaced now?) I hope it's easier to read, I'm really gong out of my way you guys, only because is you. ;)
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I have worked and as christian myself have served Lesbian/Gay couples in many different ways and never for one moment treated them differently, I did not even care. To me they are brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not hate ANYBODY and never will.
However, If the circumstances are such or if I am at a place where I see what I think is offensive behavior and I disagree or dislike, I, as an adult can get up and leave. Children or teens in school do not have that choice. We must seek to protect what is in the best interest of the mayority of them.
I honestly feel terrible that these groups have to deal with this difference. Because they suffer a lot throughout their lives. And that's exactly what we are trying to protect these children from. From ever believing that they can be gay or lesbian just because is "hot" or "cool"...A lot of them do not know what they are doing!
Most of us were very immature at that age...Let them grow up! even having sexual relationships at that age is not what is best for kids, they are so young, they are not responsible enough to risk bringing a baby into this world, nobody at this age has reached mental, spiritual or phsycological maturity yet .
If you know deep inside that you are gay/lesbian, regardless of your identity, you must seek to love all straight people too and learn to respect the honesty of our choice, it should also come natural to all, to seek to respect and protect minors.
One must wait to make a stand that will affect others so drastically, specially minors in a High school. Can they learn to respect that?. Why do they think it's only them who count?
(are my paragraphs better spaced now?) I hope it's easier to read, I'm really gong out of my way you guys, only because is you. ;)
74
@ 72:
"... the behavior that is displayed among gay and lesbian couples precisely what is offensive to most people, not their identity."
Give us specifics, please, for the sake of honest debate. If we (as Constance's advocates) are to defend her, we must know the charge you bring against her.
What behaviors are offensive? Two teens dancing together? Two teens holding hands? Even two people of the same gender kissing? I attended an all-girls' high school; of course we all danced together at our formals and parties - we didn't know many boys and wouldn't have been allowed to invite them if we did. In most countries around the world two people of the same gender often go about with their arms thrown around each other. I've lived in many places around the world - one, two or three kisses on greeting a friend of the same sex is considered the norm. You may say that these greetings offend local customs - but remember, the vast majority of people in the world are exceptionally tolerant of Americans and their culture when abroad, even when it deviates from their expected norms. Why can't North Americans show the same level of respect when confronted with behavior that is new or foreign to them?
If you believe that Ms McMillen and her partner would be so crass as to engage in explicitly sexual acts (groping?cunnilingus?) at a public venue, you should say so. We are adults and will not be offended if you voice your concerns in a mature fashion. Hiding behind euphemisms is cowardly - not to mention smells faintly of eau de complete nutter. Please, dear Aunt Ada, tell us exactly what it was that you saw in the woodshed...
"... the behavior that is displayed among gay and lesbian couples precisely what is offensive to most people, not their identity."
Give us specifics, please, for the sake of honest debate. If we (as Constance's advocates) are to defend her, we must know the charge you bring against her.
What behaviors are offensive? Two teens dancing together? Two teens holding hands? Even two people of the same gender kissing? I attended an all-girls' high school; of course we all danced together at our formals and parties - we didn't know many boys and wouldn't have been allowed to invite them if we did. In most countries around the world two people of the same gender often go about with their arms thrown around each other. I've lived in many places around the world - one, two or three kisses on greeting a friend of the same sex is considered the norm. You may say that these greetings offend local customs - but remember, the vast majority of people in the world are exceptionally tolerant of Americans and their culture when abroad, even when it deviates from their expected norms. Why can't North Americans show the same level of respect when confronted with behavior that is new or foreign to them?
If you believe that Ms McMillen and her partner would be so crass as to engage in explicitly sexual acts (groping?cunnilingus?) at a public venue, you should say so. We are adults and will not be offended if you voice your concerns in a mature fashion. Hiding behind euphemisms is cowardly - not to mention smells faintly of eau de complete nutter. Please, dear Aunt Ada, tell us exactly what it was that you saw in the woodshed...
76
@73 - . These "minors" are 18 and going out into the wider world. Young, but now grown-ups. No more hermetically sealed environments for them! They should have enough coping skills by now to deal with things that they may find offensive. They CAN leave. Young adults really aren't so fragile.
77
@ 72, beckysharp poses the pertinent question: What exactly are these behaviors you think these "kids" (some of whom are legally adults, the rest just months or even weeks away from their 18th birthdays) need to be protected from seeing?
If it's just the things we would not object to a straight couple from doing - holding hands, hugging, dancing, the occasional chaste kiss - then you're defending bigotry. Sorry, but that's inexcusable and what you call the "right of the mayority" (the word is "majority," by the way) is actually the tyranny of the majority.
America is about the rights of the individual. You know, "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." You can't tell one group of individuals (straight people) that they can engage in certain behaviors in public but then tell another group (LGBT folk) that they are prohibited from the exact same behaviors. That's discrimination.
You should be made aware that anti-miscegenation laws and customs (which prohibited interracial marriages and co-mingling) were enacted and defended on the ground of "protecting children" and "keeping them from being confused." Actually they were meant to teach the kids to discriminate, and that's what you are defending.
Sorry commonnonsensenow, but we (and Constance) are morally right. You are not.
If it's just the things we would not object to a straight couple from doing - holding hands, hugging, dancing, the occasional chaste kiss - then you're defending bigotry. Sorry, but that's inexcusable and what you call the "right of the mayority" (the word is "majority," by the way) is actually the tyranny of the majority.
America is about the rights of the individual. You know, "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." You can't tell one group of individuals (straight people) that they can engage in certain behaviors in public but then tell another group (LGBT folk) that they are prohibited from the exact same behaviors. That's discrimination.
You should be made aware that anti-miscegenation laws and customs (which prohibited interracial marriages and co-mingling) were enacted and defended on the ground of "protecting children" and "keeping them from being confused." Actually they were meant to teach the kids to discriminate, and that's what you are defending.
Sorry commonnonsensenow, but we (and Constance) are morally right. You are not.
78
@75: Possibly, but I spot two mannerisms of writing that do not fit. commonsensenow uses a lot of ALL CAPS to try and make us cool kids like him/her, something that Loveschild really didn't do. Also, commonsensenow has slightly better grammar than Loveschild.
@67, 72: Where do you get this idea that kids will go gay just to be cool? Gays aren't considered cool in middle or high school; they're generally in the "weird kid" category! In my personal experience, when a gay kid is looked up to by peers, it's for entirely unrelated reasons, and the issue of sexuality is more or less ignored.
Gay sexuality weirds straight kids out; it's just the way it is, similar to the whole cooties issue between boys and girls in grade school. If a kid is gay or lesbian, they're going to be gay or lesbian, despite the best efforts of assbags like you to convert them. If a kid is straight, they're not going to turn gay even if they listen to "In the Navy" and "YMCA" non-stop.
@67, 72: Where do you get this idea that kids will go gay just to be cool? Gays aren't considered cool in middle or high school; they're generally in the "weird kid" category! In my personal experience, when a gay kid is looked up to by peers, it's for entirely unrelated reasons, and the issue of sexuality is more or less ignored.
Gay sexuality weirds straight kids out; it's just the way it is, similar to the whole cooties issue between boys and girls in grade school. If a kid is gay or lesbian, they're going to be gay or lesbian, despite the best efforts of assbags like you to convert them. If a kid is straight, they're not going to turn gay even if they listen to "In the Navy" and "YMCA" non-stop.
79
78: Loveschild apparently uses several registered personas and posts while not logged in as well in order to stir up shit.
80
What an AWESOME young woman. Reading her answers, I had to remind myself that this is a teenager talking. Some people could take a page from her book, you know? Shine on kid.
81
@ 1: LOL!! Come on, people, that was funny!!
Jokes aside, what an amazing young woman. I hope she moves far, far away from her hometown once she graduates.
Jokes aside, what an amazing young woman. I hope she moves far, far away from her hometown once she graduates.
82
Minneapolis isn't bad either.
Run to the coastal city of your choice, Constance! There are reasonable, rational people out there. We still have some wackos, but the scales are tipped in our favor.
Minneapolis isn't bad either.
84
Yes, America is about the rights of the individual. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." but you all are forgetting that is about "all" individuals, not just gays and lesbians.
It does not make me happy to see 2 women touching each other (maybe porno lovers like this stuff) When I see 2 men sticking their tonges into each other's mouth (to be more explicit as you asked) makes me want to trow up, I am serious, I am not the only one that feels this way, I believe it's physiological, caused perhaps by a built in survival or preservation of the species mechanism of our own body..... (It may take some time to digest that)
You are kidding yourselves if you think that the media, hollywood, TV, internet, etc. have not ended up influencing the very fragil and impressionable psyque of young children to the results we now see: A growing numbers of young adolescents being open to being pursued by a person of their same sex. Because being Gay/Lesbian has been idolized and glamorized non-stop by all these outlets.
Please let our kids alone! at least before they are 18. Do you think that kissing and hugging, hand holding, between 2 boys or 2 girls (as sweet and innocent as it may seem) does not cause a very strong impression in the still forming mind and psyque of the minor 14, 15 16 and 17 year old kids that are still attending high school?
If Schools allow this type of behavior at school campuses and school events, all other kids will be forced to live with it, to see it, to tolerate it and eventually think is normal. We do not want them to think is normal, a portion of us have to think is not normal, so as to preserve the human race from extinction.
Now, Gay/Lesbians as very deserving individuals with a very genuine need to be free to express themselves....I understand that.....I would not like to be limited in my desire to show affection or be playful with my partner if I want to......so what do we do? how do we keep the peace? who's right and who is wrong? I believe we are both right in some aspects and both wrong on some others. But it's hard to decide. An we do not want to have to fight over it. It would be useless, this debate will forever exist.
I do not want to convert anyone, you are wrong if you think that. I would not know how, I do not condemn Gays/Lesbians either, I simply ask you to go live your lives the way you want to live it, you have the right to do so and let us live our lives the way we want to. Let's accept each other and compromise and give children the chance to become stable emotionally and mentally before they are exposed to more adult type choices.
NO to Constance or any other boy or girl pursuing other kids of the same sex openly at school, proms or any school event. If you are Gay/Lesbian and are going to pursue any kid of the same sex (by texting, facebook, or phone which you clearly can do nowadays and he/she accepts it, so be it) At least 300 other kids are not exposed to seeing it happen on a daily basis. Give them a chance and give them a choice. Does this request sound familiar? Think from the bottom of your heart and not your ego.
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It does not make me happy to see 2 women touching each other (maybe porno lovers like this stuff) When I see 2 men sticking their tonges into each other's mouth (to be more explicit as you asked) makes me want to trow up, I am serious, I am not the only one that feels this way, I believe it's physiological, caused perhaps by a built in survival or preservation of the species mechanism of our own body..... (It may take some time to digest that)
You are kidding yourselves if you think that the media, hollywood, TV, internet, etc. have not ended up influencing the very fragil and impressionable psyque of young children to the results we now see: A growing numbers of young adolescents being open to being pursued by a person of their same sex. Because being Gay/Lesbian has been idolized and glamorized non-stop by all these outlets.
Please let our kids alone! at least before they are 18. Do you think that kissing and hugging, hand holding, between 2 boys or 2 girls (as sweet and innocent as it may seem) does not cause a very strong impression in the still forming mind and psyque of the minor 14, 15 16 and 17 year old kids that are still attending high school?
If Schools allow this type of behavior at school campuses and school events, all other kids will be forced to live with it, to see it, to tolerate it and eventually think is normal. We do not want them to think is normal, a portion of us have to think is not normal, so as to preserve the human race from extinction.
Now, Gay/Lesbians as very deserving individuals with a very genuine need to be free to express themselves....I understand that.....I would not like to be limited in my desire to show affection or be playful with my partner if I want to......so what do we do? how do we keep the peace? who's right and who is wrong? I believe we are both right in some aspects and both wrong on some others. But it's hard to decide. An we do not want to have to fight over it. It would be useless, this debate will forever exist.
I do not want to convert anyone, you are wrong if you think that. I would not know how, I do not condemn Gays/Lesbians either, I simply ask you to go live your lives the way you want to live it, you have the right to do so and let us live our lives the way we want to. Let's accept each other and compromise and give children the chance to become stable emotionally and mentally before they are exposed to more adult type choices.
NO to Constance or any other boy or girl pursuing other kids of the same sex openly at school, proms or any school event. If you are Gay/Lesbian and are going to pursue any kid of the same sex (by texting, facebook, or phone which you clearly can do nowadays and he/she accepts it, so be it) At least 300 other kids are not exposed to seeing it happen on a daily basis. Give them a chance and give them a choice. Does this request sound familiar? Think from the bottom of your heart and not your ego.
85
Commonsensenow, I'm having a great deal of trouble making sense of your position because it seems to be all over the place.
When, exactly, should children be "exposed to more adult type choices"? You seem to be suggesting that Constance shouldn't be allowed to take the date she wants to the prom because it's an open acknowledgment that she may be a lesbian, and she's setting an example to the other students. Bear in mind that the example she's really setting is not that it's cool to be gay or lesbian--it's cool to be confident, to accept yourself.
What it sounds like you're advocating is the idea that you're fine with people being gay or lesbian as long as they only do it in private. Perhaps straight people should also only be straight in private. I'm sure there are those who want to throw up when they see a man and woman sticking their tongues in each others' mouths. We should be considerate of those people as well, since their discomfort is just as real and just as valid as yours.
Perhaps you can see where that line of thinking leads. Teaching gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people to be ashamed of themselves, that they are somehow lesser than heterosexuals, isn't going to solve anything. In fact we've been down that route.
When, exactly, should children be "exposed to more adult type choices"? You seem to be suggesting that Constance shouldn't be allowed to take the date she wants to the prom because it's an open acknowledgment that she may be a lesbian, and she's setting an example to the other students. Bear in mind that the example she's really setting is not that it's cool to be gay or lesbian--it's cool to be confident, to accept yourself.
What it sounds like you're advocating is the idea that you're fine with people being gay or lesbian as long as they only do it in private. Perhaps straight people should also only be straight in private. I'm sure there are those who want to throw up when they see a man and woman sticking their tongues in each others' mouths. We should be considerate of those people as well, since their discomfort is just as real and just as valid as yours.
Perhaps you can see where that line of thinking leads. Teaching gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people to be ashamed of themselves, that they are somehow lesser than heterosexuals, isn't going to solve anything. In fact we've been down that route.
86
In other words, some people are gay; it's ok that some some people are gay; but children must never be exposed to gay people or told about homosexuality because it might make them gay: children are to be protected from gay people and never told that some people aren't straight until they're at least 18.
Riiight. Because that worked so very well in the 1950s.
Riiight. Because that worked so very well in the 1950s.
87
Commonnonsensenow, LOL! Sorry, speaking as someone who once had the same sort of nausea seeing men kiss, who now no longer has any such feelings, I know that that's a result of being taught that it's disgusting. I similarly don't get all grossed out if I accidentally get a bit of my daughter's poop on my fingers when I change my diaper - the only reason I ever did was because someone went "EEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW!!!" when I stepped in some dogshit when I was four.
There is no instinct there. That's a taught response, and it can be unlearned with time and understanding.
Now, I'm sorry, but it's still not right to let straight HS kids date and not let the gay ones do the same. The only "confusion" kids are suffering from now is the idea that gay is somehow wrong, which really isn't different from the days when kids were taught that black was inferior, and yes, some well-meaning folks (along with the hardcore racists) had a hard time accepting blacks as equal. I'm sure that many well-meaning folks (and not just the hardcore homophobes) are having a hard time accepting that being gay is not a perversion or deviance, since they've been brought up believing that it was.
So yeah, there's some confusion now, but life is hard and confusing for everyone and we aren't doing the kids any favors by isolating them from the reality that there are gays and lesbians among them.
Besides, I think you're forgetting how quickly kids (even teens) adapt to changing circumstances - they adapt much more easily than grownups. So I think your biggest fear isn't that the kids will be confused, I think that it's you and your adult peers, so set in your ways, will be confused. Sorry, but that's no justification for barring Constance from prom.
There is no instinct there. That's a taught response, and it can be unlearned with time and understanding.
Now, I'm sorry, but it's still not right to let straight HS kids date and not let the gay ones do the same. The only "confusion" kids are suffering from now is the idea that gay is somehow wrong, which really isn't different from the days when kids were taught that black was inferior, and yes, some well-meaning folks (along with the hardcore racists) had a hard time accepting blacks as equal. I'm sure that many well-meaning folks (and not just the hardcore homophobes) are having a hard time accepting that being gay is not a perversion or deviance, since they've been brought up believing that it was.
So yeah, there's some confusion now, but life is hard and confusing for everyone and we aren't doing the kids any favors by isolating them from the reality that there are gays and lesbians among them.
Besides, I think you're forgetting how quickly kids (even teens) adapt to changing circumstances - they adapt much more easily than grownups. So I think your biggest fear isn't that the kids will be confused, I think that it's you and your adult peers, so set in your ways, will be confused. Sorry, but that's no justification for barring Constance from prom.
88
Matt from Denver...very well put. The fear is among the unknown. Kids will repeat behaviors they are taught. If they are taught that being different,,is OK, well than they will generally think it IS ok.
I applaud this young lady..she is doing a wonderful job and I hope she does open a mind or two in the process! I applaud her family who loves and supports her unconditionally.....I hope we make some progress and stop moving backwards~~!!!!!
I applaud this young lady..she is doing a wonderful job and I hope she does open a mind or two in the process! I applaud her family who loves and supports her unconditionally.....I hope we make some progress and stop moving backwards~~!!!!!
89
Commonsensenow,
Thanks for trying to explain yourself. This is my honest summation of what you are trying to say in one pithy little statement:
You believe that all students deserve equal recognition, rights, responsibility, and respect, but you're against same sex couples attending the prom because of potential "confusion" to others.
Honestly, your argument makes my head hurt. I read you as sitting on the fence, trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can't have both. Your argument makes no sense. With equality there is no grey area, there is no separate but equal.
I applaud your attempt to be nonjudgemental and to be compassionate, but I read your argument as really saying that you disapprove of gays and your nauseated when you see gay couples being affectionate. Those are your issues, not the issues of the HS students you worry for. You cannot protect the innocence of a person by keeping them ignorant. Sure some students may initially be startled to see two teenage girls holding hands or dancing, but that is momentary and will quickly become a non issue for most as they enjoy their evening. It is also one of life's realities, gay people are real. And, with that exposure all students will begin to understand that the only 'right' way to judge a person is by the content of their character, but only, yes only, after they have removed the logs from their own eyes.
Ps Your default nausea can be unlearned, try putting yourself in their shoes. Consider that when you're being affectionate with another person it might make them nauseous. I remember the first time I saw two men kiss, it startled me, I'd only heard terrible things about gays. I got over it and so can you, but you have to be willing to consider that your own attitudes are not as benign as you would like to believe them, and recognize that gays are really no different then you in the ways that really count.
More...
Thanks for trying to explain yourself. This is my honest summation of what you are trying to say in one pithy little statement:
You believe that all students deserve equal recognition, rights, responsibility, and respect, but you're against same sex couples attending the prom because of potential "confusion" to others.
Honestly, your argument makes my head hurt. I read you as sitting on the fence, trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can't have both. Your argument makes no sense. With equality there is no grey area, there is no separate but equal.
I applaud your attempt to be nonjudgemental and to be compassionate, but I read your argument as really saying that you disapprove of gays and your nauseated when you see gay couples being affectionate. Those are your issues, not the issues of the HS students you worry for. You cannot protect the innocence of a person by keeping them ignorant. Sure some students may initially be startled to see two teenage girls holding hands or dancing, but that is momentary and will quickly become a non issue for most as they enjoy their evening. It is also one of life's realities, gay people are real. And, with that exposure all students will begin to understand that the only 'right' way to judge a person is by the content of their character, but only, yes only, after they have removed the logs from their own eyes.
Ps Your default nausea can be unlearned, try putting yourself in their shoes. Consider that when you're being affectionate with another person it might make them nauseous. I remember the first time I saw two men kiss, it startled me, I'd only heard terrible things about gays. I got over it and so can you, but you have to be willing to consider that your own attitudes are not as benign as you would like to believe them, and recognize that gays are really no different then you in the ways that really count.
90
Kim, you beat me to it. I had trouble understanding Commonsensenow's comments, but that's no excuse for my rambling reply @85. Rereading his comments as well as Dingo's and Matt's comments I thought about adding something else, but you've made most of the points I was already planning to make.
I think the best advice is "try putting yourself in their shoes", and, as you mention, straight people don't often think about how their public displays of affection are perceived by others. A straight person can talk about his or her spouse, or even who they're casually dating. I think this is something that's often missed when people say "I have nothing wrong with someone being gay or lesbian as long as they don't talk about it". Imagine the same rule being applied to straight people. For many people--whether straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered--sexual orientation isn't just about sex. I think a large part of overcoming prejudice is acknowledging that fact.
I think the best advice is "try putting yourself in their shoes", and, as you mention, straight people don't often think about how their public displays of affection are perceived by others. A straight person can talk about his or her spouse, or even who they're casually dating. I think this is something that's often missed when people say "I have nothing wrong with someone being gay or lesbian as long as they don't talk about it". Imagine the same rule being applied to straight people. For many people--whether straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered--sexual orientation isn't just about sex. I think a large part of overcoming prejudice is acknowledging that fact.
91
89
"I remember the first time I saw two men kiss....
I got over it"
of course you did.
remember?
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
we first endure, then pity, then embrace....
"I remember the first time I saw two men kiss....
I got over it"
of course you did.
remember?
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
we first endure, then pity, then embrace....
92
89
You assume that all behaviors are equally deserving of acceptance.
Some people eat feces.
Should we all unlearn our default nausea?
Expand the menu?
yum yum!
Who are we to be judgmental?
Those are our issues, not the issues of the feces eaters.
It is one of life's realities, feces eaters are real.
What about bestiality?
Who is Dan to point fingers?
What about pedophiles?
What are you going to do with your default nausea?
Are you willing to consider that your own attitudes are not as benign as you would like to believe, and recognize that feces eaters and pedophiles and dog fuckers are really no different than you in the ways that really count?
Not buying it?
Why is your opinion of feces eating and pedophilia and bestiality any more valid that of people who advocate to be able to do those things?
Because you're smarter?
More enlightened?
More righteous?
Why is your opinion of homosexual behavior any more valid that of Lovechild or Commonnonsensenow or Carrie Prejean?
Because you're smarter?
More enlightened?
More righteous?
Or just smug and arrogant...
You assume that all behaviors are equally deserving of acceptance.
Some people eat feces.
Should we all unlearn our default nausea?
Expand the menu?
yum yum!
Who are we to be judgmental?
Those are our issues, not the issues of the feces eaters.
It is one of life's realities, feces eaters are real.
What about bestiality?
Who is Dan to point fingers?
What about pedophiles?
What are you going to do with your default nausea?
Are you willing to consider that your own attitudes are not as benign as you would like to believe, and recognize that feces eaters and pedophiles and dog fuckers are really no different than you in the ways that really count?
Not buying it?
Why is your opinion of feces eating and pedophilia and bestiality any more valid that of people who advocate to be able to do those things?
Because you're smarter?
More enlightened?
More righteous?
Why is your opinion of homosexual behavior any more valid that of Lovechild or Commonnonsensenow or Carrie Prejean?
Because you're smarter?
More enlightened?
More righteous?
Or just smug and arrogant...
93
I accept your criticism of me, your presumptions as to what I believe or do not believe, your disagreement with my opinion on civil justice and equality for all Americans, your dislike and displeasure with the person you think I am @ 91 and @ 92. So, it means a lot to me that you would regularly take time out of your busy life to read my comments and share your opinion about me, with me. I feel strengthened by your kind interest and willingness to invest in me via your clever ever changing handle. Indeed why would my opinion be any more valid than anyone else's? It isn't. And, that is why your besotted interest in my opinion is so encouraging to me. It's very nice to know you care for me.
Thank you.
Thank you.
94
@ 92, all these taboos are completely unaffected by allowing LGBT people to go about their business in the open. Everything you mention is practiced by straight people.
Talk about smug and arrogant. That's you in a nutshell.
Talk about smug and arrogant. That's you in a nutshell.
95
@84- "...you all are forgetting that is about "all" individuals, not just gays and lesbians.
It does not make me happy to see..."
Um, you are forgetting that it is about "all" individuals rights, not just you.
I hope you know by now how life's sick irony plays out; the only people you notice who go around doing things (being naked, chewing with their mouths open, making out, etc), are the ones you don't want to see.
Don't want to see it? Then what you can do to pursue your own happiness is don't go out in public, where you might see it. Policing (or even wasting your time disliking or discussing) other people's legal behavior is not pursuing your own happiness. If it would make you happy for those behaviors to be illegal for all, get started legislating to ban public displays of affection. Or you could always move to a country where it's illegal to do the things you don't want to see.
It does not make me happy to see..."
Um, you are forgetting that it is about "all" individuals rights, not just you.
I hope you know by now how life's sick irony plays out; the only people you notice who go around doing things (being naked, chewing with their mouths open, making out, etc), are the ones you don't want to see.
Don't want to see it? Then what you can do to pursue your own happiness is don't go out in public, where you might see it. Policing (or even wasting your time disliking or discussing) other people's legal behavior is not pursuing your own happiness. If it would make you happy for those behaviors to be illegal for all, get started legislating to ban public displays of affection. Or you could always move to a country where it's illegal to do the things you don't want to see.
97
I personally wrote to both demanding their resignation. I will also be writing to their Mayor, Senator, and Congressman. This garbage can not be tolerated by the LGBTQQA community any longer. Please everyone with a mind to. Ba rage this state with emails and demands for resignations from both the Principal and Superintendent of this School.
99
Constance - about the Christian angle. . . it's important to remember that at the time of Christ, lesbianism as we think of it - two women having an independent, committed and physical relationship - was so far outside of the social context that there is no prohibition about it in the Bible. There are (debatable) references against male homosexuality in the New Testament, but nothing against lesbians.
100
99
way to go, sister- something so perverted and disgusting it never even occurred to god to make a commandment against it!
way to go, sister- something so perverted and disgusting it never even occurred to god to make a commandment against it!
101
Constance - about the Christian angle. . . it's important to remember that at the time of Christ, lesbianism as we think of it - two women having an independent, committed and physical relationship - was so far outside of the social context that there is no prohibition about it in the Bible. There are (debatable) references against male homosexuality in the New Testament, but nothing against lesbians.
102
That Christians, and other religians, tell the world that this is all wrong is really an incredible statement. In NO-WAY religions have a monopoly on what is true, right or wrong.
The communistic approach of many many americans - who are not even honest towards themselves - is a culture of the stone ages where religions were fighting eachother. I thought de US was modern, people had freedom of speech and act. Undoubtly, that is not the case.
And, religions should question themselves of the value of their beeing. They have a lot to explain and justice should succeed where major issues related to abuse of children is proven.
Shame on you.
Constance; You have proven to be a person of the modern world, fighting for your rights. You should be copied by many. Thank you for beeing brave in a country like the US.
The communistic approach of many many americans - who are not even honest towards themselves - is a culture of the stone ages where religions were fighting eachother. I thought de US was modern, people had freedom of speech and act. Undoubtly, that is not the case.
And, religions should question themselves of the value of their beeing. They have a lot to explain and justice should succeed where major issues related to abuse of children is proven.
Shame on you.
Constance; You have proven to be a person of the modern world, fighting for your rights. You should be copied by many. Thank you for beeing brave in a country like the US.
103
Just shows what a baptist based hypocritical town fulton is...... McNeece herself was caught in a lesbian act, at the local country club, true! The very man that funded the "secret prom", has children and grandchildren that participate in orgy free sex, (all of the wealthier friends of Crane know this too). This is a town of idiots, the majority think going to church on Sunday means they are a Christian, then they sin as much as possible the other 6 days of the week... What a joke!!
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