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News & ArtsTuesday, March 9, 2010
Sex Three Years In Prison for Purchasing a Pair of Panties
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 12:08 PM
This seems a little... I don't know... wrongheaded. First though: people shouldn't fuck minors and men who trawl the internet for 14-year-old girls are 1. criminals and 2. fools. (Attention late-middle-aged creeps: there are no 14-year-old girls looking for 52-year-old men online. Any 14-year-old girl you meet online who expresses any interest in you whatsoever is a cop.)
The details: the mayor of Racine, Wisconsin, was busted after interwebs chatting with someone he thought was a 14-year-old girl. (But—surprise!—the 14-year-old girl was actually "a state investigator"! No one could've predicted!) Gary Becker pleaded guilty to two charges—child enticement and attempted sexual assault of a child—and was supposed to get probation. But the judge told Becker at sentencing that while the judge had been "prepared to sentence Becker to probation," the court had learned out that two weeks before sentencing Becker had purchased a pair of girls' panties. So Becker got three years in prison instead.
Buying girls' panties—which are famously sold in vending machines in Japan (um, does anyone know if that's actually true?)—isn't a crime. I don't want to come off as soft on sex creeps trawling the internet for minors or anything, but... clearly Becker is attracted to teenage girls. Hitting on 14-year-old girls—or state investigators he believes to be 14-year-old girls—is a hugely stupid move and a crime. And Becker was quite rightly arrested and prosecuted (and, as a consequence, ruined politically and professionally and personally). But being prosecuted isn't going to magically relieve Becker of his attraction to 14-year-old girls. It should make him realize—if he didn't realize it already—that he can never act on his feelings, that he shouldn't approach 14-year-old girls online or anywhere else, that he was burdened with sexual interests and fantasies that he would never be able to act on with a partner.
So... um... why punish him for buying girls' panties? Becker shouldn't be praised for buying panties, and it's certainly a creepy detail, and I wouldn't want him buying panties in my panties shop, but isn't masturbation a harmless way for Becker to express himself sexually? Soliciting sex from 14-year-old girls—or state investigators—is a crime. But beating off with a brand new pair of panties could only be described as a dirty thought crime.
And, yes, he wasn't really sentenced to three years in prison for buying the panties. The purchase was taken into account at sentencing, and judges have a lot of leeway. But... still.
3
You're right. Beating off with girls' panties, although totally fucked up, is a victimless act. As far as the act being a deterrent, I don't know. Does porn deter rape?
4
It's an aggravating factor.
Buying a knife isn't illegal, either, but if you commit a robbery and have one with you you're looking at more jail time than if you committed the same robbery without one.
Buying a knife isn't illegal, either, but if you commit a robbery and have one with you you're looking at more jail time than if you committed the same robbery without one.
5
Completely irrelevant but interesting side note... Racine, Wisconsin and Seattle, Washington (Ballard area) are two of the very few places in the United States that you can get Kringles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kringle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kringle
6
If he did this while awaiting sentencing, he obviously could not be trusted to adhere to his probationary terms. This guy shows a complete lack of restraint. I think 3 years is appropriate.
7
Dan: yes, there are Japanese panty dispensers. Not cheap, as you see in the above photo, 3000 Yen, or about 34 bucks. Quite the fetish-upsell from the ol' tube sock.
9
Yeah, buying panties two weeks before the arrest would've been a creepy detail. Buying them two weeks before *sentencing,* when any sane person would have been on their very best behavior, indicates a serious inability to control his actions when it comes to sex. I'd have come down harder on him with that in mind, too.
10
Enticement and attempted sexual assault of a non-existant child?
But think of the non-existant children!
But think of the non-existant children!
12
My guess - the judge wanted to hammer this guy and the panty thing was the best excuse she could think of.
13
The vending machines exist in Japan but they are in porn shops and strip clubs. They don't just exist out on the street.
14
. . . and I wouldn't want him buying panties in my panties shop . . .
You run a lingerie shop, Dan? Pray tell, whyyyyyyyyyyyy?
16
I think we should all start sending him panties while he's in the joint. I'll bet that would go over real well.
17
Went to Japan a few years back, visiting the main cities like Tokyo Kyoto and Osaka. Vending machines everywhere, for sure, but the vast majority of them are just drinks. I think I saw less than 5 that were something else, like snacks or trinkets/souvenirs. If there are any infamous panty vending machines, they are well hidden from the main streets.
18
Wait... did he buy used panties FROM a girl or did he buy new, unused panties FOR girls from a shop? The former is surely illegal, but the latter is surely perfectly legal, or no father would be able to buy underwear for his underage daughter. One thing is for certain though: the word "panties" should be illegal.
20
I lived in Japan for two years...during that time I saw one panty vending machine. (And they wouldn't let me take a picture.) So yes, they exist, but they're not common or easy to find.
21
Well, I suppose you could always call them 'knickers" like the Brits do, but that's even weirder.
22
I lived in Japan for two years, and the panty machines are a rather small detail that was overblown in the western press. Do they exist? Yes. Are they common? No. There is, however, hard core porn sold next to children's comics in most well-stocked convenience stores. Also, there is a popular variety known as U-15 (the U stands for Under) that is fucking creepy and widely available. I have also seen men openly check out middle school aged girls in public places. Hook-ups between teachers and underage girls happen openly as well, and, at least in my experience, the teachers at said schools don't do anything about it because it would "harm the reputation of the school." Becker would have faired better in Japan.
23
"there are no 14-year-old girls looking for 52-year-old men online."
Nor are they looking for 20 year old men.
Not that such a nuance would bother the authors of SLOG.
"there are no 14-year-old girls looking for 52-year-old men online."
Nor are they looking for 20 year old men.
Not that such a nuance would bother the authors of SLOG.
24
"Well, I suppose you could always call them 'knickers" like the Brits do, but that's even weirder."
How about just "underwear"?
#22: some of what you say is true: the Japanese are a lot less prudish about the display of porn than the Americans (although what can and cannot be depicted in Japan is regulated very differently). It's also true that porn depicting minors is permitted, but only purely fictional representations are allowed, i.e: no photos or video. As for your claims about hook-ups between teachers and underage girls, however, I'd say they're totally untrue.
How about just "underwear"?
#22: some of what you say is true: the Japanese are a lot less prudish about the display of porn than the Americans (although what can and cannot be depicted in Japan is regulated very differently). It's also true that porn depicting minors is permitted, but only purely fictional representations are allowed, i.e: no photos or video. As for your claims about hook-ups between teachers and underage girls, however, I'd say they're totally untrue.
25
What I always wonder in these cases is how much of the trawling for anyone online is sincere and how much is fantasy. Could someone in this situation simply be indulging in his own, pretty inappropriate sexual fantasy (which would be evidenced by his purchasing of the panties), perhaps even knowing, fully or partly, that the hands typing on the other end were probably hairy and middle aged, or was there explicit intent shown to actually consummate what was established online?
26
@24 Hook-ups between students and teachers happen. They happened at the school where I worked and at the schools of friends. I can't produce any statistics saying how common they are, but like I said, that comment is based on personal experience. Any statistics would likely be skewed anyway since schools like to keep that sort of thing hush-hush.
27
On the upside, doesn't he belong in prison? In what way was probation going to make him stop hunting? He already proved he was willing to risk everything for this, and once his career and everything else is taken away, what would he have to lose?
He's going to get out in 3 years and re-offend, isn't he?
He's going to get out in 3 years and re-offend, isn't he?
28
It's interesting that guys like this apparently won't pay a young looking 18-year-old prostitute to dress in a schoolgirl's outfit and pretend to be 14. Seems like this guy's fantasy is more about fucking someone who's easy to manipulate/control than it is about being attracted to a 14 year old's appearance.
29
There aren't any pantie vending machines out on the street - they're novelties found inside adult clubs or stores. I recall hearing that a guy in Japan did once develop a concept for a vending machine carrying *used* girls panties (back in the 90s), which is where the urban legend really originated. However he was shut down by the local government very quickly, on the grounds that since the items were used they were governed by antiquities regulations and he couldn't sell them without a license.
31
Really Dan? As much as you post about youth pastors and molesters and people who abuse children, you're really going to question the finer points of this creep's sentence?
The fact that he has a fetish for adolescent girls is NOT normal, nor should it be accepted as "safe" if he just jerks off at home with kiddie panties. That shit is sick, and you know it.
How would YOU feel if this creep got off on jerking off at home with little boys underwear - boys your son's age? Would it be okay then? Would he deserve less of a sentence then?
You can and have done better than this Dan...c'mon...
The fact that he has a fetish for adolescent girls is NOT normal, nor should it be accepted as "safe" if he just jerks off at home with kiddie panties. That shit is sick, and you know it.
How would YOU feel if this creep got off on jerking off at home with little boys underwear - boys your son's age? Would it be okay then? Would he deserve less of a sentence then?
You can and have done better than this Dan...c'mon...
32
There are no right answers. How many chances do you give someone with all the warning signs of being a pedo and/or sex criminal? It's so much easier to look back and say what *should* have been done. Kind of reminds me of the guy who shot up the gym, or the man who was arrested for this blog (http://marclepine.blogspot.com/).
33
@31--Uh, he's always been pretty clear that people are not responsible for their sexual impulses, just what they do with them. Am I happy about the idea of people jerking off with kids' underwear? No. But I'm a hell of a lot happier than I would be if they were OUT RAPING CHILDREN.
34
This sentence is a problem :
"there are no 14-year-old girls looking for 52-year-old men online. Any 14-year-old girl you meet online who expresses any interest in you whatsoever is a cop.)"
I am especially bummed to hear it coming from you, Dan. From Oprah, OK. But the problem is this : this claim, just like anything else in the world, is not going to be 100% true. How many stories have there been of girls who - guess what - hooked up with an older guy she met online? And what is the ONLY perspective one ever hears about in these stories? "Oh my God, kill that evil motherfucker. Now."
Well, that's all fine and dandy, because everybody (including me, I might add, for those who will be determined to read this the wrong way) can generally get behind that. But you know why that's the only thing we hear? Because the world - especially not the Oprah-esque portion of it - is not ready, willing or able to discuss the merest possibility - let alone the fact - that there might well be some horny 14 year old girls out there who are looking to get laid.
This is the year 2010, people. Face a few possible facts.
And while I've already mentioned once that I'm just as appalled by some guy that would go through with something like this, let me add again, for the people who it still won't be enough that I'm saying it again here - the louder you shout at me for even suggesting such a thing, the more you really, really, really do not want to think about it being a possibility. And at that point - who has some issues just as complex and fucked up as the accused predators?
"there are no 14-year-old girls looking for 52-year-old men online. Any 14-year-old girl you meet online who expresses any interest in you whatsoever is a cop.)"
I am especially bummed to hear it coming from you, Dan. From Oprah, OK. But the problem is this : this claim, just like anything else in the world, is not going to be 100% true. How many stories have there been of girls who - guess what - hooked up with an older guy she met online? And what is the ONLY perspective one ever hears about in these stories? "Oh my God, kill that evil motherfucker. Now."
Well, that's all fine and dandy, because everybody (including me, I might add, for those who will be determined to read this the wrong way) can generally get behind that. But you know why that's the only thing we hear? Because the world - especially not the Oprah-esque portion of it - is not ready, willing or able to discuss the merest possibility - let alone the fact - that there might well be some horny 14 year old girls out there who are looking to get laid.
This is the year 2010, people. Face a few possible facts.
And while I've already mentioned once that I'm just as appalled by some guy that would go through with something like this, let me add again, for the people who it still won't be enough that I'm saying it again here - the louder you shout at me for even suggesting such a thing, the more you really, really, really do not want to think about it being a possibility. And at that point - who has some issues just as complex and fucked up as the accused predators?
35
However much it may squick people out, purchasing unused children's underwear and masturbating over it is not a crime and I very much doubt it's an indication that a person who does so is likely to rape actual children.
36
More specifics about the panties--were they new? Did he buy them from a 14 year old girl? Did he buy them from a 18 year old girl? What if he'd gone to Victoria's Secret to buy some panties? And how is that relavant to his sentence? How is it that the sentence for a panties fetish gets one more time than being a child predator. Nice to see that justice is alive and well in Racine. And to see that the fine upstanding population of Racine has such stellar judgement to vote this man into office.
@18 & 19 Panties is a fabulous word. @21 Knickers is pretty good also--seems a bit naughtier than panties. Underwear is utilitarian, and evokes images of plain white granny panties that cover to the tops of the thighs all the way around, and come up to just beneath the breasts--life's far too short for that nonsense.
@18 & 19 Panties is a fabulous word. @21 Knickers is pretty good also--seems a bit naughtier than panties. Underwear is utilitarian, and evokes images of plain white granny panties that cover to the tops of the thighs all the way around, and come up to just beneath the breasts--life's far too short for that nonsense.
37
I don't know what trashy investigative TV crap I was watching the other day, but saw some parole officers who were specifically assigned to keep track of pedophiles as they were doing a "Cops" style home visit to some middle-aged weirdo (who ignorantly gave consent to have the entire ordeal filmed, and subsequently, broadcast on national TV. I actually felt sorry for the poor ol' shmuck even before they found anything.)
Anyway -- what they wound up finding and hauling him away for -- were a couple of childrens halloween costumes. I think there was maybe a "Yoda" and one or two others. Had me thinking the same thing -- is this guy having these costumes (they were real small and I don't believe he could have fit in them) really any sort of a threat? The only thing I could think is maybe he'd be planning to try and use them as some sort of "gift" or enticement for a kid? Could Becker have maybe thinking something along these lines?
Anyway -- what they wound up finding and hauling him away for -- were a couple of childrens halloween costumes. I think there was maybe a "Yoda" and one or two others. Had me thinking the same thing -- is this guy having these costumes (they were real small and I don't believe he could have fit in them) really any sort of a threat? The only thing I could think is maybe he'd be planning to try and use them as some sort of "gift" or enticement for a kid? Could Becker have maybe thinking something along these lines?
38
Sure is /b/ in here today
seriously, though, there are vending machines that sell girls panties in Japan. My understanding is that they're usually sourced from secondhand clothing wholesalers.
seriously, though, there are vending machines that sell girls panties in Japan. My understanding is that they're usually sourced from secondhand clothing wholesalers.
39
@ 23
...
Are you KIDDING ME?
It's every fourteen year old girl's DREAM to have a hot 20 year old boyfriend. Preferably with a car to drive her around, and a leather jacket.
Also, @ Dan, the whole 14 year old girls looking for 52 year old men does happen, especially in Panty Vending Japan. It's called "compensated dating" or Enjo-kōsai (援助交際) and it's really popular. Young girls go on dates (and sometimes exchange sexual favours) for money or luxury items. I personally know girls who have been involved.
...
Are you KIDDING ME?
It's every fourteen year old girl's DREAM to have a hot 20 year old boyfriend. Preferably with a car to drive her around, and a leather jacket.
Also, @ Dan, the whole 14 year old girls looking for 52 year old men does happen, especially in Panty Vending Japan. It's called "compensated dating" or Enjo-kōsai (援助交際) and it's really popular. Young girls go on dates (and sometimes exchange sexual favours) for money or luxury items. I personally know girls who have been involved.
40
37: it's entirely likely that a convicted pedophile might have as one of his parole conditions certain restrictions on what types of items he can legally possess. That doesn't mean that it's generally illegal to possess those things or to use them for sexual purposes.
And 39: shall we dial down the hyperbole a bit? "Panty Vending Japan"? It's been established that, along with many other items that would be considered unusual to sell in that way, used panties are sometimes, but not particularly commonly, sold by vending machine in Japan. As for enjo-kōsai--that's called prostitution; it's hardly an indication that 14 year-olds are looking for 50 year-old boyfriends.
And 39: shall we dial down the hyperbole a bit? "Panty Vending Japan"? It's been established that, along with many other items that would be considered unusual to sell in that way, used panties are sometimes, but not particularly commonly, sold by vending machine in Japan. As for enjo-kōsai--that's called prostitution; it's hardly an indication that 14 year-olds are looking for 50 year-old boyfriends.
41
1. Teachers and students in Japan can and have hooked up (with all that the words entail) and sometimes get married. This isn't an assumption or a slur, it's a fact.
2. Panty vending machines exist. However, you have to know exactly where to go to find them, and the used panties are almost always produced by JAV stars (not children!)
3. Yes, there are more than a few 14 year old girls who would gladly sleep with 52 year old men. The caveat being this: the 52 year old man is famous and/or adored *by* the 14 year old in question. The likelihood of any random 14 year old girl falling in love with some overweight (or even well-maintained) schlub in middle management at a local car dealership or factory is infinitesimal.
As far as how I know these things...
Japan info:Gaijin Smash is your friend (shout out to Azrael, who's been humped and molested by more than a few teenagers in his day). Double shouts out to my buddies who had the luck to be stationed at Yokota, Misawa and Kadena, the bastards.
14 year old girl info: 14 year old girls (hell, 14 year olds in general) are stupid and self-absorbed. They also have a tendency to hero worship the most bizarre people and write atrocious fan fiction. And IMHO, a 14 year old girl who's willing to write a story about being seduced by Jack Bauer wouldn't need too much convincing to agree to sleeping with Kiefer Sutherland. To keep things icktastic but even more relatable, meditate on the enduring popularity of America's favorite foreign-born misogynist and Scotland separatist, Sean Connery.
P.S.-Trying to have sex with 14 year old girls (when you're over the age of consent) is still icky and wrong, even if you live in a country in which people will forgive your desires if you're willing to make an "honest woman" out of her (read: Japan, and even that ideal has taken a major beating in the last 20 years.)
More...
2. Panty vending machines exist. However, you have to know exactly where to go to find them, and the used panties are almost always produced by JAV stars (not children!)
3. Yes, there are more than a few 14 year old girls who would gladly sleep with 52 year old men. The caveat being this: the 52 year old man is famous and/or adored *by* the 14 year old in question. The likelihood of any random 14 year old girl falling in love with some overweight (or even well-maintained) schlub in middle management at a local car dealership or factory is infinitesimal.
As far as how I know these things...
Japan info:Gaijin Smash is your friend (shout out to Azrael, who's been humped and molested by more than a few teenagers in his day). Double shouts out to my buddies who had the luck to be stationed at Yokota, Misawa and Kadena, the bastards.
14 year old girl info: 14 year old girls (hell, 14 year olds in general) are stupid and self-absorbed. They also have a tendency to hero worship the most bizarre people and write atrocious fan fiction. And IMHO, a 14 year old girl who's willing to write a story about being seduced by Jack Bauer wouldn't need too much convincing to agree to sleeping with Kiefer Sutherland. To keep things icktastic but even more relatable, meditate on the enduring popularity of America's favorite foreign-born misogynist and Scotland separatist, Sean Connery.
P.S.-Trying to have sex with 14 year old girls (when you're over the age of consent) is still icky and wrong, even if you live in a country in which people will forgive your desires if you're willing to make an "honest woman" out of her (read: Japan, and even that ideal has taken a major beating in the last 20 years.)
42
The only legitimate reason I can think this guy can be arrested for buying girl's panties is that in order to sell your used panties online through a panties-selling website (I looked into doing it once) you are often requested to show a picture of yourself wearing the panties that you are selling.
That's the reason I don't sell my panties online--I don't care to have my picture out there of me in panties--if the sites did not require it, I would have just mailed all of them to the sites and collected my payment--hey, easy money.
Perhaps, if the site was like most of the panty broker sites I've seen, the 14 years olds might have been shown wearing panties. So, it could be sort of iffy.
If the panties were purchased and no photos of girls were seen, exchanged, taken, etc., than I can't see why this guy would be arrested, and would consider it a thought crime.
That's the reason I don't sell my panties online--I don't care to have my picture out there of me in panties--if the sites did not require it, I would have just mailed all of them to the sites and collected my payment--hey, easy money.
Perhaps, if the site was like most of the panty broker sites I've seen, the 14 years olds might have been shown wearing panties. So, it could be sort of iffy.
If the panties were purchased and no photos of girls were seen, exchanged, taken, etc., than I can't see why this guy would be arrested, and would consider it a thought crime.
43
Dan, you're seriously wrong about the attractions of 14 year old girls! I'm speaking from experience here -- I was one once, and I was attracted to much older guys then. Yes, even to guys in their 50s. Actually, I never liked boys, I was always into men! And I know I'm not that big an exception.
44
Hmmm, 43, when I was a 14 year old girl, I was certainly attracted to some men in the 30s - 40s range.
However, I was not attracted to any of then men in their 40s and 50s who hit on me. There's a difference. Attractive sophisticated adult men do not have to seek amongst early teen girls to find a partner, while the socially maladjusted, poorly groomed and presented males in mid-life crisis mode will certainly give it a shot! If one of the 40-something old men whom I was interested in had made a move, I wouldn't have had my father call him and tell him to back off, as I had to do repeatedly from the age of 13 to 18.
Obviously, this is a subjective opinion, but I think it's worth considering in light of Dan's point.
However, I was not attracted to any of then men in their 40s and 50s who hit on me. There's a difference. Attractive sophisticated adult men do not have to seek amongst early teen girls to find a partner, while the socially maladjusted, poorly groomed and presented males in mid-life crisis mode will certainly give it a shot! If one of the 40-something old men whom I was interested in had made a move, I wouldn't have had my father call him and tell him to back off, as I had to do repeatedly from the age of 13 to 18.
Obviously, this is a subjective opinion, but I think it's worth considering in light of Dan's point.
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