Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, February 24, 2010
Chow Them's Fighting Words: Seattle vs. Portland
Posted by Bethany Jean Clement on Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 7:59 AM
- Better than Stumptown.
Via KUOW: "There's not really any good coffee in Seattle."*
Factors cited: Seattle citizens' willingness to drink crummy coffee, and the city of Seattle's suckiness when it comes to street-food (and -beverage) vending.
Where's the coffee purportedly better, due to the influence of Stumptown, the DIY coffee-and-food-cart culture, and just being "more punk rock"?
Portland. Full story here.
*The speaker is incontrovertibly correct in one thing: Vivace's coffee is exceptionally good.
Thanks to Slog tipper Zachary.
1
As a Seattle native who loves many of Seattle's cafes, I think the article & people quoted are totally right.
There have been a few nice cafes opening in Seattle recently in terms of space (though the most interesting are being done by stumptown and other out of towners imho). But no one is really doing anything interesting or new in terms of coffee. The new cafes aren't pushing the envelope of what cafes can be, what specialty coffee can be, or what customers can expect and receive from a coffee establishment. Portland constantly has new cafes opening doing all of those things.
Put simply, there hasn't been a new "trend" in specialty coffee that has come out of Seattle in years. We're not innovating.
(with the obvious exception of the Slayer and Synesso espresso machines, which are fantastically innovative but not really being showcased/fully exploited by any Seattle cafes)
There have been a few nice cafes opening in Seattle recently in terms of space (though the most interesting are being done by stumptown and other out of towners imho). But no one is really doing anything interesting or new in terms of coffee. The new cafes aren't pushing the envelope of what cafes can be, what specialty coffee can be, or what customers can expect and receive from a coffee establishment. Portland constantly has new cafes opening doing all of those things.
Put simply, there hasn't been a new "trend" in specialty coffee that has come out of Seattle in years. We're not innovating.
(with the obvious exception of the Slayer and Synesso espresso machines, which are fantastically innovative but not really being showcased/fully exploited by any Seattle cafes)
2
Ugh. Save me from "new trends" and "envelope pushing" in coffee. That's just more hipster bullshit, and another sign of the LA-fication of the rest of the west coast.
3
Bluebottle in the bay area made me realize that even Portland uses too much teeth. Bluebottle swallows me whole without blinking an eye.
Vivace's incontrovertibly good, but over the years there's something a bit I'm-touching-myself about it, coming through loudest in its fancy new digs. It's like a man constantly aware of how gooood-looking he is. You want to slap him.
Vivace's incontrovertibly good, but over the years there's something a bit I'm-touching-myself about it, coming through loudest in its fancy new digs. It's like a man constantly aware of how gooood-looking he is. You want to slap him.
4
@2: Read reviews of Stumptown, folks from LA gush about how perfect and cutting edge their beans are and how quaint-but-worthy-of-5-stars Stumptown is.
I don't think Stumptown is LAified yet, especially since they refuse to open anywhere else on the West Coast but were quick to invade New York.
I don't think Stumptown is LAified yet, especially since they refuse to open anywhere else on the West Coast but were quick to invade New York.
6
Some effete hipster jagoff in a Fremont coffee shop has a grass-is-greener moment with respect to Portland? This is newsworthy?
7
What Matt@2 said: @1's point is utterly irrelevant. "There's not really any good coffee in Seattle." is completely different from "no one is really doing anything interesting or new in terms of coffee". Innovation has NOTHING TO DO with making good coffee: good coffee is not "new".
I love Caffe Vita's drip. That is all.
I love Caffe Vita's drip. That is all.
8
What gets me is this need for amazing coffee in the morning when the night before was spent draining PBR tall boys.
9
I get the Seattle hasn't been very innovative lately, but Stumptown? They have *decent* coffee that's better then Starbucks, but there's really nothing exceptional about their coffee.
10
My biggest problem with this story was the fact that they played it three times in one day. It was an interesting local story but it wasn't THAT interesting.
Can we talk about the Anna King trainwreck "audio postcard" about geese that they played this morning? She sounded like a moronic fourteen year old middle school girl.
"What is this lakey, marshy, watery place?"
"What are they saying to each other?" (She asked this - what are the GEESE saying to each other - of the biologist she was interviewing.)
God, it was painful to listen to. My 15 year old daughter wanted to know if she was one of their high school interns.
Can we talk about the Anna King trainwreck "audio postcard" about geese that they played this morning? She sounded like a moronic fourteen year old middle school girl.
"What is this lakey, marshy, watery place?"
"What are they saying to each other?" (She asked this - what are the GEESE saying to each other - of the biologist she was interviewing.)
God, it was painful to listen to. My 15 year old daughter wanted to know if she was one of their high school interns.
11
@2
No, it's not more hipster bullshit, your dismissive know-it-all attitude is.
Encouraging people to appreciate coffee as a carefully crafted culinary experience allows cafes to offer higher quality coffee because customers will be more willing to pay a premium. Farmers are paid more for higher quality coffee, directly improving the quality of life for thousands of people in producing countries, which is a step towards fixing the grossly exploitive trade-model of crap commodity coffee.
And an innovative, vibrant independent cafe scene provides invaluable communal spaces in the city that reflect the actual make-up and desires of a neighborhood, not the homogeneity of bland corporate chains. It also strengthens the local & regional business community by providing a need for the services of quality focused bakeries, dairy farms, designers, contractors, brewers, etc.
Fuck your lazy nihilism. And LA is waaay behind Portland in terms of independent cafe culture.
@7 innovation has a lot to do with making good coffee. If you love cafe vita's drip, that's great, but getting more people to drink that quality of coffee takes innovative spaces and ideas. And more to the point, Cafe Vita's drip is not that great. There are many cafes producing fantastically better tasting drip that is sourced through more sustainable and ethical trade relationships that deliver more money to the farmers.
The reason Seattle is getting passed by in the coffee world is because everyone here is smug about where things are at and think that there is no space for improvement beyond what Seattle did a decade ago.
No, it's not more hipster bullshit, your dismissive know-it-all attitude is.
Encouraging people to appreciate coffee as a carefully crafted culinary experience allows cafes to offer higher quality coffee because customers will be more willing to pay a premium. Farmers are paid more for higher quality coffee, directly improving the quality of life for thousands of people in producing countries, which is a step towards fixing the grossly exploitive trade-model of crap commodity coffee.
And an innovative, vibrant independent cafe scene provides invaluable communal spaces in the city that reflect the actual make-up and desires of a neighborhood, not the homogeneity of bland corporate chains. It also strengthens the local & regional business community by providing a need for the services of quality focused bakeries, dairy farms, designers, contractors, brewers, etc.
Fuck your lazy nihilism. And LA is waaay behind Portland in terms of independent cafe culture.
@7 innovation has a lot to do with making good coffee. If you love cafe vita's drip, that's great, but getting more people to drink that quality of coffee takes innovative spaces and ideas. And more to the point, Cafe Vita's drip is not that great. There are many cafes producing fantastically better tasting drip that is sourced through more sustainable and ethical trade relationships that deliver more money to the farmers.
The reason Seattle is getting passed by in the coffee world is because everyone here is smug about where things are at and think that there is no space for improvement beyond what Seattle did a decade ago.
12
The key to a good shot is the barista, not the city. I was in Portland recently and couldn't find a well-pulled shot at four different cafes. At the fifth I did. I shrugged it off since I know good shots are hard to find in Seattle, too; in reality, the coffee in both cities is exceptionally good overall, compared to elsewhere. But once you find a barista who knows what he or she is doing, tip well and stay loyal.
14
Who cares? Coffee does not taste good in any form to me. If seattles only claim to fame is the coffee... Then we fucked up somewhere.
16
No cafe, but superb, small-batch, well-sourced, roasted-with-care local coffee:
http://www.pangaea.coop/
http://www.pangaea.coop/
18
So I heard this story the other day and I have to say that the person quoted sounded like he thought Portland's coffee was better because they are more pretentious about it there. As an example, he said that, in Portland, coffee is the new wine.
19
Well my solution to this conundrum is simply this: BAN ALL COFFEE SHOPS IN THE NORTHWEST.
There, now no one will have something so superfluous to bitch about.
There, now no one will have something so superfluous to bitch about.
20
Cato, I kinda figure any place where it rains 300 days a year gets a free pass when it comes to superfluous bitching.
22
Caffe Migliore downtown has, in my opinion, one of the best baristas in town. Consistent, smooth, and delicious espresso.
26
Schomer reached his conclusion because a bunch of downtown weenies in suits don't know the difference between Vivace and 7-11. Is this evidence that Seattle isn't a coffee town, or that Portland doesn't have a financial district?
27
@26 you misread the article, he was talking about the problems he faced years and years ago.
But for the record, I worked at a cafe in Portland's (very small) business/financial district, and many of those weenies did prefer and seek out stumptown coffee over 7-11/starbucks
All of the self-righteous finger in ears denial and smug condescension by commenters is really cute. Y'all are exactly why Seattle is losing relevance.
But for the record, I worked at a cafe in Portland's (very small) business/financial district, and many of those weenies did prefer and seek out stumptown coffee over 7-11/starbucks
All of the self-righteous finger in ears denial and smug condescension by commenters is really cute. Y'all are exactly why Seattle is losing relevance.
28
Portland: Where Trustafarians Go to Start Hobby Businesses, or Portland: Where Shiftless Hipsters Go to Feel Productive.
When you don't have an income to report, a state with an income tax and no sales tax is the best place to be. Especially when everyone looks and thinks just like you!
When you don't have an income to report, a state with an income tax and no sales tax is the best place to be. Especially when everyone looks and thinks just like you!
29
I'm eternally grateful for KUOW. It's like the Seattle Gay News, but for straight people. If only I could hear the typos...
30
@27: and your smug, meaningless, buzzword-filled condescension is exactly why no one takes Portland seriously.
32
@30 A great many people take portland seriously. For example, look at all the press surrounding stumptown moving into NYC. Or the press about Portland's support for independent business and the amazing food cart scene (if you're going to hate on 20+ places to get delicious $4 burritos, you're gonna hate on everything). Or all of the accolades that restaurants like Le Pigeon, Beast etc. have gotten. Or how portland is held up as a model of forward thinking transit design. Or the fact that Portland is widely regarded as one of the top beer cities in the country. etc. etc. etc.
I love Seattle, and there are a great many things it does better than Portland. Diversity for one, most of urban portland is shockingly white and homogeneous.
I very sincerely mean everything I say and no word I use is there simply for buzzword recognition. Try actually engaging with what I say instead of smug dismissal.
I love Seattle, and there are a great many things it does better than Portland. Diversity for one, most of urban portland is shockingly white and homogeneous.
I very sincerely mean everything I say and no word I use is there simply for buzzword recognition. Try actually engaging with what I say instead of smug dismissal.
33
@27 - Meh. There are countless coffee shops in Seattle that take it seriously. Hell, there are probably 10 of them in my neighborhood.
Conversely, I'm sure it's just as easy to find a shit cup of coffee in Portland as it is in Seattle. OK, one caveat, it's probably easier to find a shit cup of coffee from a cart in Portland than it is in Seattle.
Conversely, I'm sure it's just as easy to find a shit cup of coffee in Portland as it is in Seattle. OK, one caveat, it's probably easier to find a shit cup of coffee from a cart in Portland than it is in Seattle.
35
@31, spot on. They pull right and do siphons too, though the staff and patrons can be painfully avid.
36
People who care so deeply about the "relevance" of their city are weird. I think most people in other parts of the country would be hard pressed to describe how Portland and Seattle are different. We're both "northwest" and we both have opinions on things like coffee that border on the ludicrous.
40
This makes me laugh.
I just don't get the fuss. I know an Australian who thinks Americans are abysmal at making coffee and an English man who raves about how Americans make excellent coffee. To each his/her own.
I use a Bialetti to make coffee and when I am out and about I get tea. Good coffee is a divine thing, but what defines "good" differs from one individual to the next.
I just don't get the fuss. I know an Australian who thinks Americans are abysmal at making coffee and an English man who raves about how Americans make excellent coffee. To each his/her own.
I use a Bialetti to make coffee and when I am out and about I get tea. Good coffee is a divine thing, but what defines "good" differs from one individual to the next.
41
Stumptown has great drip coffee, but I don't like their beans for espresso. And for the record, Vivace IS THE BEST COFFEE. There is no place in Portland (or anywhere I have been, outside of Milan) that has better espresso, that is so consistent.
And I am getting sick of all the "Portland is better" meme that has been around for a couple years. Look, Portland is just Seattle-lite. Maybe you dig that sort of thing. If so, FUCKING MOVE THERE. And GTFO of my city.
And I am getting sick of all the "Portland is better" meme that has been around for a couple years. Look, Portland is just Seattle-lite. Maybe you dig that sort of thing. If so, FUCKING MOVE THERE. And GTFO of my city.
43
I've given Stumptown every chance. I've had it in Seattle and Portland. I've bought whole beans, espresso drinks, and drip coffee, which I drink without cream or sugar. Every time I bought whole beans, they were long-since stale and tasted like a diaper smells. The espresso was totally unremarkable. The drip coffee I've gotten was weaker and worse than the plastic thermos they put on your table at IHOP. When I mentioned how bad the weak coffee was, the barista said, "That's how it's supposed to be." I am not exaggerating or using hyperbole at all.
Whereas I've never been disappointed in Vivace, Bauhaus, Victrola, Ladro, Elliott Bay, Fonte, or others that I'm forgetting. I've been a barista, but I'm not a huge coffee snob; it doesn't take a hell of a lot to please me--just a simple, strong, good cup of black coffee. I'm not terrifically familiar with Portland, but if Stumptown is their standard for good coffee, they suck at coffee.
Whereas I've never been disappointed in Vivace, Bauhaus, Victrola, Ladro, Elliott Bay, Fonte, or others that I'm forgetting. I've been a barista, but I'm not a huge coffee snob; it doesn't take a hell of a lot to please me--just a simple, strong, good cup of black coffee. I'm not terrifically familiar with Portland, but if Stumptown is their standard for good coffee, they suck at coffee.
44
In Portland our trustafarians waste their parents' money creating innovative, delightful and delicious things, but Seattle's trustafarians piss it all away on coke.
45
No matter that you don't think it's hip enough for you, Tully's has a nice collection of drinks, with way less attitude.
46
@27/@36: I don't even understand what it means for a city to be "relevant" (or maybe I don't want to understand). A few places that have great coffee is just fine, then you ignore the rest, right? I JUST WANT TO LIVE! And I make 90% of my coffee at home: I like to reserve my out-in-the-world-liquids-money for cocktails.
47
Portland's coffee laurels rest on the imagined superiority of Stumptown. Too bad their coffee tastes like crap.
48
It really depends on where in each city you are.
Some places have decent street food and/or decent coffee.
Some don't.
Personally, I prefer the food choices and coffee in Vancouver BC and Wenatchee.
Some places have decent street food and/or decent coffee.
Some don't.
Personally, I prefer the food choices and coffee in Vancouver BC and Wenatchee.
50
@46 what I mean by relevant is that with the current way things are going, in 5-10 years, when people think about what great coffee means in the united states, they won't think of Seattle. Seattle is losing relevancy to where the industry is going.
Yeah, having a few places that make great coffee and then ignoring the rest is fine in general. But Seattle is known for innovation, be it in coffee, software, music or food. The value of that goes beyond civic pride; it helps attract businesses, improves perceived desirability as a place to move to, causes national/international press to pay more attention to the happenings here, etc. etc. etc. And if Seattle wants to continue to be known for innovation, at least in coffee, it needs to step its game up.
And to all the stumptown coffee haters, just because you dislike something does not mean it is across the board bad. People have different tastes. Personally, I worked at Vivace, and I love their coffee dearly, but when it is prepared well I think Stumptown has better coffee. If you disagree, fine. But don't insult the multitude of people who like stumptown coffee by saying that your taste is the be all and end all of what good coffee means. And don't forget that "good coffee" is more than flavor, it's also ethics, sustainability, etc.
Yeah, having a few places that make great coffee and then ignoring the rest is fine in general. But Seattle is known for innovation, be it in coffee, software, music or food. The value of that goes beyond civic pride; it helps attract businesses, improves perceived desirability as a place to move to, causes national/international press to pay more attention to the happenings here, etc. etc. etc. And if Seattle wants to continue to be known for innovation, at least in coffee, it needs to step its game up.
And to all the stumptown coffee haters, just because you dislike something does not mean it is across the board bad. People have different tastes. Personally, I worked at Vivace, and I love their coffee dearly, but when it is prepared well I think Stumptown has better coffee. If you disagree, fine. But don't insult the multitude of people who like stumptown coffee by saying that your taste is the be all and end all of what good coffee means. And don't forget that "good coffee" is more than flavor, it's also ethics, sustainability, etc.
51
I just spent two months living in Austin, which is a lovely city, but every time I wanted a cup of coffee while out and about, I longed desperately to be back in Seattle. If I were a Portlander, I'm sure I would have been longing for that lovely city.
Now that I'm back here, all I want is a decent taco, anytime, anywhere. You know, like they have in Austin.
Here's the thing about tacos and Tex-Mex and Austinites...there are people who take it seriously, there are people who can tell you in excruiciating technical detail who makes the best salsa most consistently, but NO ONE would ever take their views on the matter of food or beverage and extend them into a damning STATEMENT about the RELEVANCE of the town. And thank god for that.
Now that I'm back here, all I want is a decent taco, anytime, anywhere. You know, like they have in Austin.
Here's the thing about tacos and Tex-Mex and Austinites...there are people who take it seriously, there are people who can tell you in excruiciating technical detail who makes the best salsa most consistently, but NO ONE would ever take their views on the matter of food or beverage and extend them into a damning STATEMENT about the RELEVANCE of the town. And thank god for that.
52
Even if it were true, I'd rather drink Seattle coffee than live in bumfuck nowhere. You run out of things to do pretty quickly in Portland.
I'm glad to hear, though, that their baristas are now even bigger self-important assholes than ours. I thought that was a contest that no one could win.
I'm glad to hear, though, that their baristas are now even bigger self-important assholes than ours. I thought that was a contest that no one could win.
54
@51 Just to be clear, I was saying relevance specifically as it pertains to the coffee industry, and then pointing out that Seattle's historical relevance in the coffee industry is one part of what people nationally think of when they think of Seattle.
I'm probably just beating a dead horse at this point though. I'll leave it at this: the reason that there is fantastic beer, wine, coffee, cupcakes, whatever in Seattle, or anywhere else, is because there are people who take it extremely seriously, obsessing about it in every detail. That obsession trickles down and benefits everyone. If someone thinks that's self-important, then they are misguided and needlessly undermining the people who benefit them and their community.
I'm probably just beating a dead horse at this point though. I'll leave it at this: the reason that there is fantastic beer, wine, coffee, cupcakes, whatever in Seattle, or anywhere else, is because there are people who take it extremely seriously, obsessing about it in every detail. That obsession trickles down and benefits everyone. If someone thinks that's self-important, then they are misguided and needlessly undermining the people who benefit them and their community.
55
I've been in Seattle, and I've been in Portland. I voluntarily went back to Seattle. I live in Atlanta so the Washingtonians' insistence on anachronisms like turn signals is adorable, and frankly they're just fun! Portland...two days of searching fruitlessly for parking while morons stepped, biked and made out in front of my moving car. (I would have taken public transport if it had extended to the areas in which I stayed and worked). Portland: good for cement. For a good time, call Seattle!
56
@31: Right on! Any report on the current state of Seattle coffee that fails to mention Seattle Coffee Works, with their mad-scientist approach to roasting a dozen single origins and brewing them eight different ways, just hasn't done its research. They will not LET you have a sub-stellar coffee experience at that place.
The report is also strangely defensive of Vivace-supremacy. Vivace does one thing, and does it extraordinarily well. But they've been doing it exactly the same for decades. They provide a better example than counter-example of the article's hypothesized "stuck" mindset.
Stumptown, meanwhile, roasts some delicious beans that are woefully easy to screw up in the hands of a mediocre barista. Many shops buy them because the name infers quality, then destroy them. This has actually been giving Stumptown quite a bad name around New York.
My other quibble with the report is its strange urge to interlace PDX's "punk rock" reputation with its coffee advancements. What, exactly, is nuanced or sophisticated about punk rock?
(Now when it comes to NPR stations, compare the level of discourse on KUOW to a WBUR and then we can discuss ways in which Seattle lacks...)
The report is also strangely defensive of Vivace-supremacy. Vivace does one thing, and does it extraordinarily well. But they've been doing it exactly the same for decades. They provide a better example than counter-example of the article's hypothesized "stuck" mindset.
Stumptown, meanwhile, roasts some delicious beans that are woefully easy to screw up in the hands of a mediocre barista. Many shops buy them because the name infers quality, then destroy them. This has actually been giving Stumptown quite a bad name around New York.
My other quibble with the report is its strange urge to interlace PDX's "punk rock" reputation with its coffee advancements. What, exactly, is nuanced or sophisticated about punk rock?
(Now when it comes to NPR stations, compare the level of discourse on KUOW to a WBUR and then we can discuss ways in which Seattle lacks...)
57
Ahhh, hip independent coffee shops…the first sign you're in a neighborhood that is either filled with nothing but college educated, liberal white people, or soon will be.
59
Insight from someone who previously worked in wholesale and retail coffee environments in Seattle and Portland for eight years and now works on the ground with coffee farmers in Tanzania, Ethiopia, Rwanda, and Burundi...
@2 To add to what Alex already said, a question for you...
Do you ever buy a wine because of the type of grape that was cultivated to produce the flavors that you enjoy in that bottle? Varietal separation and branding has only become market commonplace over the past 20 years in the US wine industry. Coffee producers don’t even come close to earning the recognition (or $$) they deserve for their year-round hard work and dedication just to put coffee in your cup. The coffee industry has a long, long way to go to actively become more sustainable, so “new trends” and “envelope pushing” are far from “hipster bullshit” in my mind. They are what needs to happen in this industry, at every single step in the supply chain, to make a sweeping impact. I’m doing my part at the producer lever, it’s up to consumer-at-large to get their heads out of their asses and appreciate coffee on an entirely different level.
@25 and @30 How is the comment “Fuck Portland,” without any follow-up justification, not completely smug and meaningless? Alex’s so called “buzzwords,” I would call “well-educated, defendable points,” and they come from someone who has worked in the industry for a number of years.
“No one takes Portland seriously”? Like Alex pointed out, people actually do...a lot! The thing, however, is that no one needs to take Portland seriously. Having lived in both cities, people in Portland don’t give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks. The city and it’s people constantly think outside the box to make Portland a better place to live (the first light rail line began service a quarter-century ago). The folks who end up in Portland are dedicated and passionate about their craft (beer, food, coffee, farming, art, fashion, public service, etc.), because if they don’t do a good job, they will be squeezed out. If they do a good job, they will be rewarded for their work in a comfortable city to live in.
Focus on making your place, wherever that may be, more livable. Don’t hate on other cities without any sort of justification or reasoning behind it.
@2, @7, @9, @12, @14, @34, @41, @43, @45, @47, @49, @53 (and I’m sure others):
You all exemplify what Alex said, quoted below, in @27 and my assertion that consumers have their heads way too far up their asses.
“All of the self-righteous finger in ears denial and smug condescension by commenters is really cute. Y'all are exactly why Seattle is losing relevance.”
It’s up to everyone in coffee’s supply chain to actively change old habits in an effort to make coffee a more sustainable global product. We are far from reaching that point, which is completely clear from many of your comments. At the two ends of the supply chain, we have the grower and the consumer. Without the grower, we have no coffee. Without a consumer driven market, we have no demand for the coffee.
The American consumer has to understand that the quality of the coffee you drink isn’t solely reliant on who your barista was that morning or what bags of whole beans you buy. Quality coffee is the result of due diligence at every transformation the coffee plant goes through, from being a seed pushed beneath a little wet sand for germination, to being a hot, delicious beverage for human consumption. These steps include: varietal selection, terroir, cultivation, picking red ripe cherries, getting them pulped properly and within 3-4 hours of picking, controlled mucilage removal or breakdown, washing, drying, storage, hulling, grading, sorting, bagging, transport to port, transparency of buyer/seller transactions, trans-shipment, customs, warehousing, local transport, roaster storage conditions, age of green inventory, roasting, cooling, de-stoning, delivery method, freshness, roasted coffee storage, grinding, brewing, and serving.
For the Stumptown haters who say the coffee doesn’t taste good... If you are basing this on a single experience, or on your naivety with regards to proper brew methods at home, just remember that a slip up in any one of the above steps will result in a less-than-stellar coffee experience. For those of you who claim to have had consistently bad tasting coffee from Stumptown retail cafes, your friends should pool together their resources and get you a palate for your birthday this year.
My work in the coffee industry has mostly revolved around training and education, whether at the consumer or producer level. After training wholesale customers and consumers for a number of years in Portland, I helped open the Seattle wholesale market for Stumptown a few years ago and drove to Seattle on an almost weekly basis for six months. (Note: I no longer work for Stumptown.) What amazed me during this experience was how people in Seattle seemed much less interested in hearing about the coffee farmers who Stumptown worked with, how much we were paying for their coffees, how much their workers got paid, etc., and more concerned with whether it had a black and white sticker that said “Fair Trade.” Coffee farmers don’t get paid enough for their work, this is obvious. If you do a good job at sourcing coffee through face-to-face interactions, open communication, and transparent business practices, you don’t need a third-party certifier standing in the middle, snatching away 10 cents a pound that should be going to the producer.
In my professional opinion, there isn’t a roasting company in Seattle, Washington who could even come close to telling you about the details of each of the steps I mention above with regards to the coffee they buy... except for Stumptown. Until there are more roasting companies, and consumers, willing to step up their game, Seattle has a long way to go, as does the rest of America.
Comments such as, “they (Stumptown) have *decent* coffee that's better then Starbucks, but there's really nothing exceptional about their coffee,” and “save me from ‘new trends’ and ‘envelope pushing’ in coffee,” and “coffee does not taste good in any form to me,” and “a bunch of asswipes debating on who's the bigger asswipe,” and “this is all evidence that way too many people give way too much of a shit about coffee,” are all proof to me that the Seattle consumer is reluctant, for whatever reason, to step up, appreciate, and demand a better coffee experience.
More...
@2 To add to what Alex already said, a question for you...
Do you ever buy a wine because of the type of grape that was cultivated to produce the flavors that you enjoy in that bottle? Varietal separation and branding has only become market commonplace over the past 20 years in the US wine industry. Coffee producers don’t even come close to earning the recognition (or $$) they deserve for their year-round hard work and dedication just to put coffee in your cup. The coffee industry has a long, long way to go to actively become more sustainable, so “new trends” and “envelope pushing” are far from “hipster bullshit” in my mind. They are what needs to happen in this industry, at every single step in the supply chain, to make a sweeping impact. I’m doing my part at the producer lever, it’s up to consumer-at-large to get their heads out of their asses and appreciate coffee on an entirely different level.
@25 and @30 How is the comment “Fuck Portland,” without any follow-up justification, not completely smug and meaningless? Alex’s so called “buzzwords,” I would call “well-educated, defendable points,” and they come from someone who has worked in the industry for a number of years.
“No one takes Portland seriously”? Like Alex pointed out, people actually do...a lot! The thing, however, is that no one needs to take Portland seriously. Having lived in both cities, people in Portland don’t give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks. The city and it’s people constantly think outside the box to make Portland a better place to live (the first light rail line began service a quarter-century ago). The folks who end up in Portland are dedicated and passionate about their craft (beer, food, coffee, farming, art, fashion, public service, etc.), because if they don’t do a good job, they will be squeezed out. If they do a good job, they will be rewarded for their work in a comfortable city to live in.
Focus on making your place, wherever that may be, more livable. Don’t hate on other cities without any sort of justification or reasoning behind it.
@2, @7, @9, @12, @14, @34, @41, @43, @45, @47, @49, @53 (and I’m sure others):
You all exemplify what Alex said, quoted below, in @27 and my assertion that consumers have their heads way too far up their asses.
“All of the self-righteous finger in ears denial and smug condescension by commenters is really cute. Y'all are exactly why Seattle is losing relevance.”
It’s up to everyone in coffee’s supply chain to actively change old habits in an effort to make coffee a more sustainable global product. We are far from reaching that point, which is completely clear from many of your comments. At the two ends of the supply chain, we have the grower and the consumer. Without the grower, we have no coffee. Without a consumer driven market, we have no demand for the coffee.
The American consumer has to understand that the quality of the coffee you drink isn’t solely reliant on who your barista was that morning or what bags of whole beans you buy. Quality coffee is the result of due diligence at every transformation the coffee plant goes through, from being a seed pushed beneath a little wet sand for germination, to being a hot, delicious beverage for human consumption. These steps include: varietal selection, terroir, cultivation, picking red ripe cherries, getting them pulped properly and within 3-4 hours of picking, controlled mucilage removal or breakdown, washing, drying, storage, hulling, grading, sorting, bagging, transport to port, transparency of buyer/seller transactions, trans-shipment, customs, warehousing, local transport, roaster storage conditions, age of green inventory, roasting, cooling, de-stoning, delivery method, freshness, roasted coffee storage, grinding, brewing, and serving.
For the Stumptown haters who say the coffee doesn’t taste good... If you are basing this on a single experience, or on your naivety with regards to proper brew methods at home, just remember that a slip up in any one of the above steps will result in a less-than-stellar coffee experience. For those of you who claim to have had consistently bad tasting coffee from Stumptown retail cafes, your friends should pool together their resources and get you a palate for your birthday this year.
My work in the coffee industry has mostly revolved around training and education, whether at the consumer or producer level. After training wholesale customers and consumers for a number of years in Portland, I helped open the Seattle wholesale market for Stumptown a few years ago and drove to Seattle on an almost weekly basis for six months. (Note: I no longer work for Stumptown.) What amazed me during this experience was how people in Seattle seemed much less interested in hearing about the coffee farmers who Stumptown worked with, how much we were paying for their coffees, how much their workers got paid, etc., and more concerned with whether it had a black and white sticker that said “Fair Trade.” Coffee farmers don’t get paid enough for their work, this is obvious. If you do a good job at sourcing coffee through face-to-face interactions, open communication, and transparent business practices, you don’t need a third-party certifier standing in the middle, snatching away 10 cents a pound that should be going to the producer.
In my professional opinion, there isn’t a roasting company in Seattle, Washington who could even come close to telling you about the details of each of the steps I mention above with regards to the coffee they buy... except for Stumptown. Until there are more roasting companies, and consumers, willing to step up their game, Seattle has a long way to go, as does the rest of America.
Comments such as, “they (Stumptown) have *decent* coffee that's better then Starbucks, but there's really nothing exceptional about their coffee,” and “save me from ‘new trends’ and ‘envelope pushing’ in coffee,” and “coffee does not taste good in any form to me,” and “a bunch of asswipes debating on who's the bigger asswipe,” and “this is all evidence that way too many people give way too much of a shit about coffee,” are all proof to me that the Seattle consumer is reluctant, for whatever reason, to step up, appreciate, and demand a better coffee experience.
60
@59 Very well done.
Everyone else;
I for one hated this article, it actually DID feel overly hipsterish, and lacking actual content from a Seattle side. They pasted us into a Starbucks, saying that our coffee was the best! (???)
This is not very representative of the actual coffee culture here. I also agreed with others that Stumptown is not the best coffee I have tasted, but when I lived in Portland, I do remember the impact that that coffee house had on the rest of the city, and coffee drinkers in general.
If we are saying that Seattle doesn't have a good roaster that pays attention to where their beans come from, I invite everyone to check out:
Cafe Verite', Caffe Vita and Cafe Fiore, to name just a few who pay special care to where their beans come from, or put extra time into educating their customers if they are willing to learn. (I name Verite' because of their documentary that they helped make about coffee and it's world impact, called "Black Gold").
Everyone else;
I for one hated this article, it actually DID feel overly hipsterish, and lacking actual content from a Seattle side. They pasted us into a Starbucks, saying that our coffee was the best! (???)
This is not very representative of the actual coffee culture here. I also agreed with others that Stumptown is not the best coffee I have tasted, but when I lived in Portland, I do remember the impact that that coffee house had on the rest of the city, and coffee drinkers in general.
If we are saying that Seattle doesn't have a good roaster that pays attention to where their beans come from, I invite everyone to check out:
Cafe Verite', Caffe Vita and Cafe Fiore, to name just a few who pay special care to where their beans come from, or put extra time into educating their customers if they are willing to learn. (I name Verite' because of their documentary that they helped make about coffee and it's world impact, called "Black Gold").
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