Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, February 23, 2010
Religion Here We Go Again
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:15 PM
Miss Beverly Hills—who will be competing in the upcoming Miss California pageant—seems to think that the gays should be put to death.
"The Bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman. In Leviticus it says, 'If man lies with mankind as he would lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them.' The Bible is pretty black and white," Ashley told Pop Tarts. "I feel like God himself created mankind and he loves everyone, and he has the best for everyone. If he says that having sex with someone of your same gender is going to bring death upon you, that's a pretty stern warning, and he knows more than we do about life."
The same God that allegedly scribbled out that stern warning for the gays—a God who wishes us only the best!—also condemned to death all young women who aren't virgins on their wedding nights. So a follow-up question for Miss Beverly Hills: Are you a virgin? If not, should you be put to death? And a former Miss California—Carrie Prejean—isn't a virgin. Should she be put to death? Would you like to cast the first stone?
1
Leviticus also forbids pork & shellfish. Subpoena her records from the Olive Garden, Chochkies, and Flingers.
6
Blends are out too:
"Thou shalt not wear a garment woven w/ one kind of thing and another kind of thing."
The real reason God hates America. We're all wearing blends.
"Thou shalt not wear a garment woven w/ one kind of thing and another kind of thing."
The real reason God hates America. We're all wearing blends.
9
I'm not sure what sucks more—the opinions of these pageant contestants, or asking the opinions of these pageant contestants.
10
What I find most alarming is that the headline is that she opposes same sex marriage. Fox News didn't draw attention to the whole the gays deserve to die aspect. Is that par for the course for their end of the issue?
I'm growing increasingly furious with so-called religious types using their idea of god to defend bigotry.
My brother, a devout Catholic who supports marriage equality, recently got into an argument with a girl where she declared that being gay cannot be natural (she thinks children from broken homes turn gay) b/c if god makes people gay - it wouldn't be a sin. We shared frustration on her being so close to a breakthrough, but falling short.
I'm growing increasingly furious with so-called religious types using their idea of god to defend bigotry.
My brother, a devout Catholic who supports marriage equality, recently got into an argument with a girl where she declared that being gay cannot be natural (she thinks children from broken homes turn gay) b/c if god makes people gay - it wouldn't be a sin. We shared frustration on her being so close to a breakthrough, but falling short.
12
There is 600+ purity or holiness rules in Leviticus, and all but three are still obsessed over by the majority of Christians. I really wish we would all shut up, and just do the job we're called to do. You know .... "let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me" ... "whoever wants to be first must be last and a servant to all" ... etc.
Sigh.
Sigh.
13
People who participate in beauty pageants should be stoned simply because they're annoying. Because, of course, it's perfectly normally to dress your kid up like JonBenet Ramsey was by her parents.
14
'You shall not make for yourselves idols"... Leviticus 20:13 is giving the penalties for the Leviticus 18:22 "abomination" or in the Hebrew "toevah". Unlike what the English translation implies, toevah did not usually signify something intrinsically evil, but something ritually unclean for Jews.
16
It doesn't sound like she's talking about execution, really. I wonder if this is actually about AIDS (and being woefully ignorant but that almost goes without saying) or something like that, rather than about actively stoning the fuck out of sinners.
I could be wrong. Maybe the indirectness of the statement is just her idea of "tact."
I could be wrong. Maybe the indirectness of the statement is just her idea of "tact."
19
Wow-
We've broken some exciting new ground here!
Let's recapitulate:
>Dan doesn't believe in the Bible and loves to mock the Bible and people who profess to believe it.....
>The Slog Faithful trot out their favorite Mosaic Law dictates; "polyester!" "shrimp!"...
> Kim apologizes for all Christians who aren't like her....
This conversation grows more stimulating every time we have it!
We've broken some exciting new ground here!
Let's recapitulate:
>Dan doesn't believe in the Bible and loves to mock the Bible and people who profess to believe it.....
>The Slog Faithful trot out their favorite Mosaic Law dictates; "polyester!" "shrimp!"...
> Kim apologizes for all Christians who aren't like her....
This conversation grows more stimulating every time we have it!
21
Actually, I am not apologizing at all. I just wish that if a Christian or Christian group was going to be covered in the news it would be for their deeds and actions ... taking care of orphans and widows, feeding the poor, sheltering the homeless, caring for the sick, ending socio-economic injustice...
22
@17
I was stolen by a gay man once. It was a strange experience. I just woke up one day in a strangely familiar bed in a very nicely decorated apartment. I mean, there I had been, just minding my own business, having sex with (female, of course) models all the time, and now I don't remember a thing but I'm in this bed and it kinda smells like... man. So I get up and make my way out and just as I'm escaping the building I see this trim, 30-something dude with designer shoes going into the apartment. Well, I don't mind telling you, I took off running and never looked back. To this day I glance back over my shoulder a little nervously every time I walk down the street in Cap Hill.
I just want to tell my story, you know? I know I can't be the only one. I just know I was lucky enough to escape and I want people to know that yes, even today, these things happen. They happen in your city. Someone you know might be a victim of Gay Theft. So keep your eyes open. You could save a heterosexual life.
I was stolen by a gay man once. It was a strange experience. I just woke up one day in a strangely familiar bed in a very nicely decorated apartment. I mean, there I had been, just minding my own business, having sex with (female, of course) models all the time, and now I don't remember a thing but I'm in this bed and it kinda smells like... man. So I get up and make my way out and just as I'm escaping the building I see this trim, 30-something dude with designer shoes going into the apartment. Well, I don't mind telling you, I took off running and never looked back. To this day I glance back over my shoulder a little nervously every time I walk down the street in Cap Hill.
I just want to tell my story, you know? I know I can't be the only one. I just know I was lucky enough to escape and I want people to know that yes, even today, these things happen. They happen in your city. Someone you know might be a victim of Gay Theft. So keep your eyes open. You could save a heterosexual life.
23
For news like this, which ones faith guides one to put oneself at risk and "love one's neighbor as oneself":
http://www.bilerico.com/2010/02/standing…
Not this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
http://www.bilerico.com/2010/02/standing…
Not this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
24
@19: As if you wackos don't rehash the same tired old "ghey is unnatural, God doesn't want us to have buttsecks, homos spread AIDS" garbage with that one guy just saying "skipping to Gomorrah? WE'RE RUNNING!" every time the topic comes up.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
25
I keep forgetting about these pageants until I read about one on the internet. Thanks a lot, internet.
26
weighinh in here with a religious studies degree that had a bible history/ethics bent to it : lets pretend for a moment leviticus was serious sauce and not a bunch of culturally relative rules that were meant for a specific time period and group.
In the New Testament, which i am assuming is important to this lady, who is prolly a conservative protestant, Jesus is the fulfillment of Torah, which means he's the coming of all these prophecies and what have you, the final sacrifical lamb, which absolves his followers of having to do literal sacrfices and keep Old Testament cleanliness/rabinnical laws. Like this one. "Its not what goes into the mouth but what comes from it that makes a man unclean", which is a rough paraphrase, and i forget precisely where that's at, and i am absolutely not responsible for the incredibly easy gay sex joke set up i just created
but thats my religious studies degree two cents
In the New Testament, which i am assuming is important to this lady, who is prolly a conservative protestant, Jesus is the fulfillment of Torah, which means he's the coming of all these prophecies and what have you, the final sacrifical lamb, which absolves his followers of having to do literal sacrfices and keep Old Testament cleanliness/rabinnical laws. Like this one. "Its not what goes into the mouth but what comes from it that makes a man unclean", which is a rough paraphrase, and i forget precisely where that's at, and i am absolutely not responsible for the incredibly easy gay sex joke set up i just created
but thats my religious studies degree two cents
27
weighinh in here with a religious studies degree that had a bible history/ethics bent to it : lets pretend for a moment leviticus was serious sauce and not a bunch of culturally relative rules that were meant for a specific time period and group.
In the New Testament, which i am assuming is important to this lady, who is prolly a conservative protestant, Jesus is the fulfillment of Torah, which means he's the coming of all these prophecies and what have you, the final sacrifical lamb, which absolves his followers of having to do literal sacrfices and keep Old Testament cleanliness/rabinnical laws. Like this one. "Its not what goes into the mouth but what comes from it that makes a man unclean", which is a rough paraphrase, and i forget precisely where that's at, and i am absolutely not responsible for the incredibly easy gay sex joke set up i just created
but thats my religious studies degree two cents
In the New Testament, which i am assuming is important to this lady, who is prolly a conservative protestant, Jesus is the fulfillment of Torah, which means he's the coming of all these prophecies and what have you, the final sacrifical lamb, which absolves his followers of having to do literal sacrfices and keep Old Testament cleanliness/rabinnical laws. Like this one. "Its not what goes into the mouth but what comes from it that makes a man unclean", which is a rough paraphrase, and i forget precisely where that's at, and i am absolutely not responsible for the incredibly easy gay sex joke set up i just created
but thats my religious studies degree two cents
28
21
Then your beef should be with the (Liberal) media.
And bloggers like Dan.
Who present a distorted biased inaccurate picture of Christianity and religion.
Who magnify and highlite every negative but ignore the thousands of positive things that happen.
Then your beef should be with the (Liberal) media.
And bloggers like Dan.
Who present a distorted biased inaccurate picture of Christianity and religion.
Who magnify and highlite every negative but ignore the thousands of positive things that happen.
30
CAN WE PLEASE distinguish between the Miss USA program and the Miss America program? One is a modeling contest with absolutely no restrictions on character whatsoever. The other is the largest provider of scholarships to women IN THE WORLD. And, for the record, the current Miss America, Caressa Cameron, was asked about gay marriage when she was competing for the state title, Miss Virginia. She said that religious beliefs shouldn't affect the laws about gay marriage. Her platform is AIDS awareness, because she had an uncle who died from it.
31
oops. sorry about the double post fraught with typos. i meant to mention too that original church doctrine stipulated that following Jesus' teaching WAS fulfilling torah stuff so all that was moot.
however, i'm not sure how Jesus "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" feels about gaudy, expensive pageants
however, i'm not sure how Jesus "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" feels about gaudy, expensive pageants
33
These girls are stuck in ivory towers until their sixteen, and hence have only the limited educations their parents allow them.
A few years in the real world will straighten her out...so to speak.
I do wonder if NOM will snatch her up as a new mascot. Then she can tell the world in NOMs name how gays should be stoned to death.
A few years in the real world will straighten her out...so to speak.
I do wonder if NOM will snatch her up as a new mascot. Then she can tell the world in NOMs name how gays should be stoned to death.
34
It is a free country, so I am free to have a "beef" with whomever I choose. I have a high level of intolerance for sub-Christ behavior and hypocrisy coming from self proclaimed Christians. Just as I abhor it in myself. Therefore, I think self proclaimed Christians are primarily responsible for making sure their deeds and actions are living out their calling. And, when they don't they should accept that they will be called on their behaviors. It is not the unbelievers job to give the Christian grace, it is the believers job to extend grace and bring about thanksgiving to G-d.
Unfortunately, negative actions are the ones remembered and given attention and by just the media but within human nature as well. It is easier to nurture a grudge than to forgive for most humans.
Unfortunately, negative actions are the ones remembered and given attention and by just the media but within human nature as well. It is easier to nurture a grudge than to forgive for most humans.
35
Incidentally, the Eye of the Needle is the night doorway into Jerusalem, and yes, a camel can pass through it, but it's not easy.
37
Uriel,
The passage can also be read metaphorically. As one often finds that they must unload their " baggage" inorder to pass through the gate.
The passage can also be read metaphorically. As one often finds that they must unload their " baggage" inorder to pass through the gate.
39
34
You certainly may have a beef with whomever you please....
In @21 you wished that if a Christian or Christian group was going to be covered in the news it would be for their (charitable) deeds and actions.
If a Christian group does a thousand acts of selfless service and the media is aware of it and if one member of the congregation is guilty of a crime and all the media reports is the crime who is to blame?
People like Dan intentionally present a false distorted picture of Christianity.
If your 'wish' @21 is a teeny bit sincere you should be able to muster even just a tiny spark of indignation at that dishonesty, even if it is committed by those whose approval you crave.
You certainly may have a beef with whomever you please....
In @21 you wished that if a Christian or Christian group was going to be covered in the news it would be for their (charitable) deeds and actions.
If a Christian group does a thousand acts of selfless service and the media is aware of it and if one member of the congregation is guilty of a crime and all the media reports is the crime who is to blame?
People like Dan intentionally present a false distorted picture of Christianity.
If your 'wish' @21 is a teeny bit sincere you should be able to muster even just a tiny spark of indignation at that dishonesty, even if it is committed by those whose approval you crave.
40
Why does anyone care what someone so obviously leotarded thinks? Do you ask two-year-olds their opinions on politics? Do you let llamas vote? Ignore this beeyatch. Aint worth the effort to get all riled up.
41
Now now... According to the Bible, Jesus said that his followers should disregard all the old laws described in the Torah. And if Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit are all one in Three, Jesus is the Holy Spirit. And if she is in favor of enforcing those rules, she's disregarding the Holy SPirit in Effect, the ONLY unforgivable Sin in the Bible...
Guess we all know where she's going when she croaks.
Guess we all know where she's going when she croaks.
42
Miss Beverly Hills should surely get a virginity test. Hope she's been using pads and not tampons all this time!
43
'If man lies with mankind as he would lie with a woman" - So that's only if he puts it in another dude's vagina. Ok.
44
Yes, 35, and the camel could only enter if all the baggage it was carrying was removed.
A very lovely metaphor, no?
A very lovely metaphor, no?
47
i read and reread the quote and i can't see where she advocates putting gays to death. but hyperbole is a favorite tool of tools, so keep on this important story, Dan.
49
Why is it the media's job or Dan's job to give Christians or Christian groups good press? Is that why charitable deeds are done; to gain good press? I don't think so. I think charitable deeds should be done because we understand charity. Done because we are moved with compassion. Done because that is the calling on our lives. Actions done for positive press have already received their reward. No charitable work should be done in silence so that all glory is given to G-d. Jesus gained followers by word of mouth, his actions proclaimed the goodness of G-d, he did not require the media to proclaim his ministry, he served by making himself last. Making ourselves last is the example we are given.
Those who proclaim loudly of their compliance and devotion, should expect to be scrutinized. They have invited attention, and in a sense have proclaimed themselves as a living example of Jesus to be emulated. The responsibility to act Christ-like at all times rests on the one who proclaims that they represent him. When they commit a crime or act hypocritically they bring shame to the One they claim to represent and the community they belong to.
For those refused the compassion that their humanity demands, and are kept strangers at the gate, unwelcome at the table, the wounds are deep. They have been judged and rejected. It is to be expected that they will judge those who judge them and don't live up to the very standards they use to judge others. It is not the moral obligation of the rejected to give grace to the fallen Christian. It is the Christians job to remember that they fall short and to avoid rejecting others.
I don't need Dan Savage's approval nor do I crave it. He is free to agree or disagree with me, just as you are. He is free to like me or dislike me, just as you are. Many people disagree with me, many people dislike me, some disagree with me and dislike me. It is okay. And, when I disagree with Dan Savage, I tell him so, sometimes on SLOG and sometimes in an email.
More...
Those who proclaim loudly of their compliance and devotion, should expect to be scrutinized. They have invited attention, and in a sense have proclaimed themselves as a living example of Jesus to be emulated. The responsibility to act Christ-like at all times rests on the one who proclaims that they represent him. When they commit a crime or act hypocritically they bring shame to the One they claim to represent and the community they belong to.
For those refused the compassion that their humanity demands, and are kept strangers at the gate, unwelcome at the table, the wounds are deep. They have been judged and rejected. It is to be expected that they will judge those who judge them and don't live up to the very standards they use to judge others. It is not the moral obligation of the rejected to give grace to the fallen Christian. It is the Christians job to remember that they fall short and to avoid rejecting others.
I don't need Dan Savage's approval nor do I crave it. He is free to agree or disagree with me, just as you are. He is free to like me or dislike me, just as you are. Many people disagree with me, many people dislike me, some disagree with me and dislike me. It is okay. And, when I disagree with Dan Savage, I tell him so, sometimes on SLOG and sometimes in an email.
50
43, you are amazing. I think you may be my new god.
btw #47: If you say "I feel like God...[gave] a pretty stern warning, and he knows more than we do about life" in reference to a Levitical passage about killing gays, that qualifies as advocating the execution of gays.
And after that she still trots out the "I've got gay friends and there's no hate between us" routine.
btw #47: If you say "I feel like God...[gave] a pretty stern warning, and he knows more than we do about life" in reference to a Levitical passage about killing gays, that qualifies as advocating the execution of gays.
And after that she still trots out the "I've got gay friends and there's no hate between us" routine.
52
i knew the eye of the needle was an actual gate, and i knew you had to unload to get through it, but it never actually clicked like that for me. nice observation kids.
but i'm taking a step back..you know, i was raised really conservative, though i never bought the gay people ought to be stoned to death, there was a time in my life i thought being gay was wrong because of jebus, and then I grew up and grew some empathy and independant thought. maybe she'll come to regret ( or, better yet, repent) of that nonsense.
but one thing i dont get : how do these pageant girls get by with hating on gays? don't gays like, RUN the pageant world, making costumes/doing hair/makeup ? pageant gays should totally just eff up these girls hair, or make them have stupid dresses.take that, public appearences!
but i'm taking a step back..you know, i was raised really conservative, though i never bought the gay people ought to be stoned to death, there was a time in my life i thought being gay was wrong because of jebus, and then I grew up and grew some empathy and independant thought. maybe she'll come to regret ( or, better yet, repent) of that nonsense.
but one thing i dont get : how do these pageant girls get by with hating on gays? don't gays like, RUN the pageant world, making costumes/doing hair/makeup ? pageant gays should totally just eff up these girls hair, or make them have stupid dresses.take that, public appearences!
53
Gay Guys!
Look out!
Lauren Ashley is coming after you with some Tabasco Sauce in one hand and a spork in the other!
Gay Guys!
Look out!
Lauren Ashley is coming after you with some Tabasco Sauce in one hand and a spork in the other!
54
I really don't understand the American beauty pageant ideal of womanly charms. Carrie Prejean looked like an over-bronzed drag queen too me; this new girl looks hardboiled and plastic. Here in Asia you see ladybois who are more delicately feminine. Neither of these young women look graceful or transcendent enough to justify the "body is god's temple" remarks. Maybe god's Vegas-style casino, but not a temple. Not hatin' on them, and "no offense to anyone, that's just my belief", as Miss Carrie would say.
No.s 50 and 51 - if there really was a cadre of ghey terrorists intent on overturning society with some 'homosexual agenda', wouldn't they find all the so-called gay friends of all these bigots and denounce them as traitors to the cause?
No.s 50 and 51 - if there really was a cadre of ghey terrorists intent on overturning society with some 'homosexual agenda', wouldn't they find all the so-called gay friends of all these bigots and denounce them as traitors to the cause?
57
fine if she thinks gay should be stoned to death, then she can find her own damn hair stylist, make up artist, and wardrobe designer.
58
If I recall the metaphor correctly, a camel entering the eye of the needle must be stripped of all baggage, get down on its knees and crawl.
id est, give up your worldly things and show humility towards God.
That's from Sunday school a while back, so I may be missing an element.
PS: Not Hymen, Vaginal Corona.
id est, give up your worldly things and show humility towards God.
That's from Sunday school a while back, so I may be missing an element.
PS: Not Hymen, Vaginal Corona.
59
and another one with "a lot of friends that are gay" and "a lot of friends who have different views". Yeah, right. You know, how when you have Jewish friends and you have antisemitic "views". Nothing personal.
60
Education is what's needed here. Personally, I would love to be able to have a conversation with Ashley and Carrie ... maybe at a bar or club ... get 4-5 Cosmos in them ... then "help" them back to thie hotel room ... and fuck them til they are crosseyed with a strap on! And maybe a spanking for each (can't help that, I get a little vengeful at homophobes).
61
49
The responsibility of Journalists is to tell the truth.
If the truth is that a group does much more good than bad, that is the story responsible Journalists will tell. To distort the truth and present a false image of the group is a lie.
If a news outlet only reported on Blacks when they committed crimes, and repeatedly highlighted every crime a Black committed, and sensationalized those reports to make them seem worse than they were, and hammered the theme that Blacks are criminals, and repeatedly proclaimed that Blacks are an enemy to society would you shrug "oh why is it the media's job or Dan's job to give Blacks good press?"
The Nazis did exactly that to Jews,
to prepare Germans for the Holocaust.
The KKK did it to Blacks.
Rawanda.
Bosnia.
Dan does it to Christians.
It is a lie.
It is wrong.
Because you also dislike the groups Dan targets you shrug.
The comparison to Jesus is apt.
He did marvelous good works.
The ruling class was still filled with hatred for him.
They were unmoved by His good works and only more determined to kill Him.
They lied about what he had done.
They distorted what he did and said.
They loudly repeatedly proclaimed Him a threat.
They whipped their credulous followers into a frenzy.
"Why is it Caiaphas' job or Pilate's job to give Jesus good press?"
.
"Those who 'proclaim loudly' of their compliance and devotion, should expect to be scrutinized."
scru·ti·nize: To examine or observe with great care.
With great care.
Noting the good as well as the bad.
Noting the 1000 good acts for every bad act.
Feel free to scrutinize.
Do not distort.
Do not misrepresent.
.
When Christians reject sin they do not reject the sinner.
Your Jesus will save the people from their sins-
if they forsake them and follow Him.
Your Jesus rejected sin. And condemned it.
Christianity is not holding hands with the sinners and saying 'there is no sin' and skipping to Gommorah.
Kum Ba Ya.....
You are offended by those who reject the sin of homosexual behavior.
Are there ANY sins you reject?
Hypocricy?
Lying?
Adultery?
Fornication?
Murder?
Or is the only sin you reject the sin of believing a different version of Christianity than that you embrace...
Pride goeth before a fall.
It takes no Love or Compassion to look the other way and allow people to wallow in sinful behavior.
Only indifference to the consequences of and damage wrought by engaging in behavior your Jesus has taught leads to destruction.
The only Love that counts is the Tough Love that helps others see the path to happiness.
Covering the path or pretending is does not exist is not Love.
Is not Compassion.
More...
The responsibility of Journalists is to tell the truth.
If the truth is that a group does much more good than bad, that is the story responsible Journalists will tell. To distort the truth and present a false image of the group is a lie.
If a news outlet only reported on Blacks when they committed crimes, and repeatedly highlighted every crime a Black committed, and sensationalized those reports to make them seem worse than they were, and hammered the theme that Blacks are criminals, and repeatedly proclaimed that Blacks are an enemy to society would you shrug "oh why is it the media's job or Dan's job to give Blacks good press?"
The Nazis did exactly that to Jews,
to prepare Germans for the Holocaust.
The KKK did it to Blacks.
Rawanda.
Bosnia.
Dan does it to Christians.
It is a lie.
It is wrong.
Because you also dislike the groups Dan targets you shrug.
The comparison to Jesus is apt.
He did marvelous good works.
The ruling class was still filled with hatred for him.
They were unmoved by His good works and only more determined to kill Him.
They lied about what he had done.
They distorted what he did and said.
They loudly repeatedly proclaimed Him a threat.
They whipped their credulous followers into a frenzy.
"Why is it Caiaphas' job or Pilate's job to give Jesus good press?"
.
"Those who 'proclaim loudly' of their compliance and devotion, should expect to be scrutinized."
scru·ti·nize: To examine or observe with great care.
With great care.
Noting the good as well as the bad.
Noting the 1000 good acts for every bad act.
Feel free to scrutinize.
Do not distort.
Do not misrepresent.
.
When Christians reject sin they do not reject the sinner.
Your Jesus will save the people from their sins-
if they forsake them and follow Him.
Your Jesus rejected sin. And condemned it.
Christianity is not holding hands with the sinners and saying 'there is no sin' and skipping to Gommorah.
Kum Ba Ya.....
You are offended by those who reject the sin of homosexual behavior.
Are there ANY sins you reject?
Hypocricy?
Lying?
Adultery?
Fornication?
Murder?
Or is the only sin you reject the sin of believing a different version of Christianity than that you embrace...
Pride goeth before a fall.
It takes no Love or Compassion to look the other way and allow people to wallow in sinful behavior.
Only indifference to the consequences of and damage wrought by engaging in behavior your Jesus has taught leads to destruction.
The only Love that counts is the Tough Love that helps others see the path to happiness.
Covering the path or pretending is does not exist is not Love.
Is not Compassion.
62
@34 Gay people's "obsession" with people like this woman isn't "nursing a grudge" or "focusing on the negative instead of forgiving". It is paying attention to our dangerous enemies. Google Uganda and Rick Warren if you think I am kidding.
She literally spoke about gays being put to death. That is not simply being negative. That should be Godwinning you out of polite society. But it is not. It is going to get her on the wingnut welfare tour, no matter the results of the pageant.
She literally spoke about gays being put to death. That is not simply being negative. That should be Godwinning you out of polite society. But it is not. It is going to get her on the wingnut welfare tour, no matter the results of the pageant.
63
Anonymous coward @ 61, give up. Your ass has been handed to you on this one, and in the most gracious way too.
64
Touched, so when should the media start listing all the charitable and good deeds of Osama bin Laden, saddam Hussein, Jim Jones, the Unabomber, mohemed Atta?
I mean why focus on the negative?
Sure they may have done a few things wrong, but you never hear of the good deeds.
I mean why focus on the negative?
Sure they may have done a few things wrong, but you never hear of the good deeds.
65
She's just a dumb twit making a stupid comment and citing the Bible. Here influence on our popular culture or politics is negligable at best.
66
She's just another hypocrite who condemns others for not following a bit of scripture that she's latched onto, while at the time, ignoring the parts of the Bible she doesn't want to follow.
67
If you want impartial news then go read a news source, not the opinions of a writer and an advice columnist. Solve your own problems; start a Christian PR firm if you want to see charitable deeds by Christians promoted.
And, if it makes you happy to sit behind your computer screen and to judge others, who you know nothing about, anonymously; go for it. If you think that you are providing a fountain of morality and effective witness; think again. You come across as a religious bully with a chip on your shoulder; not someone to be taken seriously.
We are done. Have a nice day.
And, if it makes you happy to sit behind your computer screen and to judge others, who you know nothing about, anonymously; go for it. If you think that you are providing a fountain of morality and effective witness; think again. You come across as a religious bully with a chip on your shoulder; not someone to be taken seriously.
We are done. Have a nice day.
68
Just to clarify something that rarely gets mentioned- the words that were translated to the english "camel" could have instead been translated as "coarse piece of thread". Doesn´t that make more sense? Totally changes the meaning from "it´s impossible for a rich man to enter heaven" to "it´s very difficult for a rich man to enter heaven". But of course the church wanted people to give them all their money, so they went with camel instead of coarse piece of thread.
71
I love all the reinterpretation of the camel through the eye of a needle line.
It means what it says.
Luke 12:33
33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Acts 4:32-35
The Believers Share Their Possessions
32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
It means what it says.
72
Dan,
Leviticus contains many intrusive and draconian provisions; totalitarianism is a harsh preceptor. But I am not aware of any provision in that book that prescribes death as punishment for the loss of virginity. Can you cite to a chapter and verse?
In the meantime, fuck the Old Testament. The New Testament requires that women be modestly appareled (not half fucking naked). Will this contest not require Ms. Bambi here to display a portion of her assets to a leering world?
Leviticus contains many intrusive and draconian provisions; totalitarianism is a harsh preceptor. But I am not aware of any provision in that book that prescribes death as punishment for the loss of virginity. Can you cite to a chapter and verse?
In the meantime, fuck the Old Testament. The New Testament requires that women be modestly appareled (not half fucking naked). Will this contest not require Ms. Bambi here to display a portion of her assets to a leering world?
73
72,
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Marriage Violations
13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [a] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Marriage Violations
13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [a] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
74
Factual Distortion and Lies are not 'opinion'.
You have a nice day as well.
Sorry to have intruded on the little lovefest you have here on Slog, you know; Kim condemns "the majority of Christians" for being unenlightened hatefille bigots and tells the homosexuals Jesus loves sodomy and in return they annoint her the Saint of Slog.
You have a nice day as well.
Sorry to have intruded on the little lovefest you have here on Slog, you know; Kim condemns "the majority of Christians" for being unenlightened hatefille bigots and tells the homosexuals Jesus loves sodomy and in return they annoint her the Saint of Slog.
75
Not to demonize her, but she sort of looks like a demon.
Did you see Paranormal Activity? That chick's face when she was laying in bed, after convincing her boyfriend not to leave the house?
Did you see Paranormal Activity? That chick's face when she was laying in bed, after convincing her boyfriend not to leave the house?
76
You people fail to realize, this is not stupidity, this is PR. She is going to get a lot of free PR for being a hateful bitch, and then she will be on the wingnut welfare circuit afterwards. FOX News, CPAC, Focus on Family, and all those other right wing outlets will give her publicity and payments to cry about how maligned she is for simply speaking her views and being a good Christian. It is doubtful that she even believes a word of it, given the attitudes of young people these days. But there's money to be made. She's like Palin, spewing whatever nonsense will get her to celebrity status.
81
74:
You're a pompous jerk. There are mainline Christian denominations and individual non-denominational churches that do not agree with your take on gays. Yet, you think that you are correct... talk about pride. Seriously, STFU you hypocrite. If you're offended by what you read here, then GTFO.
Your rantings are garbage. Click goes the unregistered comment button.
You're a pompous jerk. There are mainline Christian denominations and individual non-denominational churches that do not agree with your take on gays. Yet, you think that you are correct... talk about pride. Seriously, STFU you hypocrite. If you're offended by what you read here, then GTFO.
Your rantings are garbage. Click goes the unregistered comment button.
82
God loves for people to have slaves! So sayeth the bible! The bible even supports beating slaves when out of hand. The so-called Good Book explicitly, repeatedly and unequivocally endorses and approves of slavery, presenting it as an institution directly sanctioned by God.
"Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you? And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever." Leviticus 25:44-46
God loves for peeps to have slaves too!
"Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you? And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever." Leviticus 25:44-46
God loves for peeps to have slaves too!
84
As a friend of mine (a theological scholar) once pointed out, if we actually tried to follow all the laws of Leviticus literally, pretty much everyone would be put to death. I love this cherry-picking of verses that support preconceived notions - it's so very Christian. NOT.
85
If a man lies with mankind as he would lie with a woman--who the fuck writes this shit? Oh, that's right: men, interpreting 'the word' as they saw fit, over the span of centuries, to suit the agenda of the time. And this is the same book that advocates stoning people, sacrificing children ( to the right god, not to any of the wrong ones) and incest.
Hmmmm.
Hmmmm.
86
Very well, Rob, then it's just a matter of liquefying the camel. Won't be much use after you run it through, though.
87
@85: I don't know about the New Testament, but the Old Testament does not encourage or in any way condone human sacrifice. There's a lot of wacky rules in there that make no sense to follow today, but human sacrifice is not one. Animals are supposed to be sacrificed, but after the destruction of the Temple, that was replaced with reading from the Torah about the various ways in which they should be sacrificed, since the altar no longer existed. But there's nothing in the Torah saying that human sacrifice is all right.
Also, there's a whole hell of a lot in Leviticus, I believe, expressly AGAINST incest. It lists all the people you're not supposed to get it on with (sisters, half-sisters, sisters-in-law, step-mothers, mothers, aunts, daughters, etc.) in a way that is more or less identical with today's prohibitions. The closest to incest that that book comes to condoning is a few instances in which cousins get married.
I know you're just trying to make the point that we shouldn't be fanatics, but you just made an ass of yourself, catballou.
Also, there's a whole hell of a lot in Leviticus, I believe, expressly AGAINST incest. It lists all the people you're not supposed to get it on with (sisters, half-sisters, sisters-in-law, step-mothers, mothers, aunts, daughters, etc.) in a way that is more or less identical with today's prohibitions. The closest to incest that that book comes to condoning is a few instances in which cousins get married.
I know you're just trying to make the point that we shouldn't be fanatics, but you just made an ass of yourself, catballou.
88
venomlash
genesis 9:20-25 ham sees Noah having sex with someone other than Mrs Noah. What other women are available? his daughters.
Adam & Eve as the father and mother of mankind, did we miraculously find non relatives to fuck somewhere in there?
2 Kings 3:27 Moab gives his firstborn as a burnt offering, his enemy is repelled by a great wrath.
Abraham was given a ram to kill, after demonstrating his willingness to sacrifice his son. That's a nice family story.
So you see, I'm not making an ass of myself. Nor am I trying to make a point about fanatacism. I'm not even going to point back at you and tell you that you're wrong. I don't subscribe to the Henry Ford like approach to religion, in which you can follow any faith you'd like, so long as it's mine.
Now, is it at all possible for us to have civilization, personal morality, and non judgement of others without waving around the original work of fiction?
genesis 9:20-25 ham sees Noah having sex with someone other than Mrs Noah. What other women are available? his daughters.
Adam & Eve as the father and mother of mankind, did we miraculously find non relatives to fuck somewhere in there?
2 Kings 3:27 Moab gives his firstborn as a burnt offering, his enemy is repelled by a great wrath.
Abraham was given a ram to kill, after demonstrating his willingness to sacrifice his son. That's a nice family story.
So you see, I'm not making an ass of myself. Nor am I trying to make a point about fanatacism. I'm not even going to point back at you and tell you that you're wrong. I don't subscribe to the Henry Ford like approach to religion, in which you can follow any faith you'd like, so long as it's mine.
Now, is it at all possible for us to have civilization, personal morality, and non judgement of others without waving around the original work of fiction?
90
@88:
Genesis 9:20-25 you have all wrong. If you read it, it is more or less as follows:
Noah gets drunk in his tent and takes off his clothes. Ham notices and he and his brothers Shem and Yefeth walk backwards with a blanket to cover up their dad. Ham gets cursed because he peeked. Nothing about incest, just some icky didn't-need-to-see-that biznass.
According to the Bible, Adam and Eve are the father and mother of mankind, but there are a lot of inconsistencies. For example, in Genesis 4:14, Cain exclaims "I am to be restless and isolated in the world, and whoever finds me will kill me" upon hearing his punishment pronounced. This implies that there were indeed other people out there unrelated to the family of Adam and Eve. The Pentateuch is somewhat silent on this seeming contradiction, and is another reason not to be a fanatic.
The Moabites were polytheists, and those who they were repelling were the Israelites, according to the verse you reference. An alternate translation (ancient Hebrew is a very tricky thing) is "Israel's anger was great" rather than "there was great anger against Israel", suggesting that the Israelites were so repulsed that they withdrew, having already razed the enemy's domain.
The test of the non-sacrifice of Yitzhak was not condoning human sacrifice, but rather demonstrating the depth of Avraham's faith. If you read the text, it is clearly so.
I'm not saying you need to or should believe. I'm just saying that you give the religious wackos more ammunition against us when you make false claims about the values outlined in their holy book(s). In effect, you're giving the rest of us a bad name and making an ass of yourself in the process.
Genesis 9:20-25 you have all wrong. If you read it, it is more or less as follows:
Noah gets drunk in his tent and takes off his clothes. Ham notices and he and his brothers Shem and Yefeth walk backwards with a blanket to cover up their dad. Ham gets cursed because he peeked. Nothing about incest, just some icky didn't-need-to-see-that biznass.
According to the Bible, Adam and Eve are the father and mother of mankind, but there are a lot of inconsistencies. For example, in Genesis 4:14, Cain exclaims "I am to be restless and isolated in the world, and whoever finds me will kill me" upon hearing his punishment pronounced. This implies that there were indeed other people out there unrelated to the family of Adam and Eve. The Pentateuch is somewhat silent on this seeming contradiction, and is another reason not to be a fanatic.
The Moabites were polytheists, and those who they were repelling were the Israelites, according to the verse you reference. An alternate translation (ancient Hebrew is a very tricky thing) is "Israel's anger was great" rather than "there was great anger against Israel", suggesting that the Israelites were so repulsed that they withdrew, having already razed the enemy's domain.
The test of the non-sacrifice of Yitzhak was not condoning human sacrifice, but rather demonstrating the depth of Avraham's faith. If you read the text, it is clearly so.
I'm not saying you need to or should believe. I'm just saying that you give the religious wackos more ammunition against us when you make false claims about the values outlined in their holy book(s). In effect, you're giving the rest of us a bad name and making an ass of yourself in the process.
92
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-…
'Miss Beverly Hills' moniker has city crying foul
The designation is claimed by a Miss California USA contestant who opposes gay marriage. But the city says it has no beauty pageant and there is no such title.
In a statement Wednesday, the city said it was “shocked” by Ashley’s description of herself as “Miss Beverly Hills.” The city “does not sponsor a beauty pageant and has no association with Miss California USA,” the statement said. “As such, there should be no individual claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills.”
The city's statement said Ashley lives in Pasadena and "does not represent Beverly Hills in any capacity."
Beverly Hills Mayor Nancy Krasne said “We are dismayed by any potential association with the city of Beverly Hills, which has a long history of tolerance and respect."
Beverly Hills said it had contacted pageant officials to see how to prevent any future beauty contestants from claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills. The pageant is put on by K2 Productions in L.A. Ashley declined comment.
'Miss Beverly Hills' moniker has city crying foul
The designation is claimed by a Miss California USA contestant who opposes gay marriage. But the city says it has no beauty pageant and there is no such title.
In a statement Wednesday, the city said it was “shocked” by Ashley’s description of herself as “Miss Beverly Hills.” The city “does not sponsor a beauty pageant and has no association with Miss California USA,” the statement said. “As such, there should be no individual claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills.”
The city's statement said Ashley lives in Pasadena and "does not represent Beverly Hills in any capacity."
Beverly Hills Mayor Nancy Krasne said “We are dismayed by any potential association with the city of Beverly Hills, which has a long history of tolerance and respect."
Beverly Hills said it had contacted pageant officials to see how to prevent any future beauty contestants from claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills. The pageant is put on by K2 Productions in L.A. Ashley declined comment.
93
90
darn, venom- I'm impressed!
and catballou; yeah man, you totally assed yourself.
plus an embarrassing reading comprehension fail...
darn, venom- I'm impressed!
and catballou; yeah man, you totally assed yourself.
plus an embarrassing reading comprehension fail...
94
Guys, don't be so shocked at these young beauty pageant contestants parroting extreme right-wing views. If they were liberals, they'd be in college.
95
@50 said: btw #47: If you say "I feel like God...[gave] a pretty stern warning, and he knows more than we do about life" in reference to a Levitical passage about killing gays, that qualifies as advocating the execution of gays.
no, actually it does not qualify as advocating the execution of gays. it qualifies as agreeing that homosexuality is a sin. Dan's leap to the conclusion that she supports the execution of gays is completely false. At no time did she state support for that idea. Dan assumes she does because he always assumes the worst of those he considers his enemies. It is one of the many reasons he will always fail to change any opinions on such matters.
When it comes to his targets, he's much like Sarah Palin in that he loves to get in the mud to fight them and no idiot is too insignificant for him to engage in these arguments. Sarah goes after not so bright Levi, Dan goes after not so bright beauty queens. At least, when it comes to intellect, it is a fair fight in both cases.
Four idiots walk into the bar, bartender says "Dan, Levi, Sarah, Ashley, stfu for a minute and tell me what you want to drink."
no, actually it does not qualify as advocating the execution of gays. it qualifies as agreeing that homosexuality is a sin. Dan's leap to the conclusion that she supports the execution of gays is completely false. At no time did she state support for that idea. Dan assumes she does because he always assumes the worst of those he considers his enemies. It is one of the many reasons he will always fail to change any opinions on such matters.
When it comes to his targets, he's much like Sarah Palin in that he loves to get in the mud to fight them and no idiot is too insignificant for him to engage in these arguments. Sarah goes after not so bright Levi, Dan goes after not so bright beauty queens. At least, when it comes to intellect, it is a fair fight in both cases.
Four idiots walk into the bar, bartender says "Dan, Levi, Sarah, Ashley, stfu for a minute and tell me what you want to drink."
96
@95: She also said: "The Bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman. In Leviticus it says, 'If man lies with mankind as he would lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them.' The Bible is pretty black and white."
What if I reference a law calling for the execution of all people who like cranberry sauce and say "The law is as clear as the nose on your face, and the guy who made the law is a really smart guy." Does it sound like I'm just saying that liking cranberry sauce is a bad thing, or am I expressing support for that particular law? Of course, this law would result in most of the world dying, since cranberry sauce is awesome.
Now if she had merely mentioned the part about gay sex being evil, then I could see your point. Why would she also quote the bit about how guys who have gay sex should be killed, unless she too thinks so?
Clearly you either lack the capacity for critical thought or any sort of higher reasoning, or you suppress your ability to do so when it leads to conclusions you don't like.
What if I reference a law calling for the execution of all people who like cranberry sauce and say "The law is as clear as the nose on your face, and the guy who made the law is a really smart guy." Does it sound like I'm just saying that liking cranberry sauce is a bad thing, or am I expressing support for that particular law? Of course, this law would result in most of the world dying, since cranberry sauce is awesome.
Now if she had merely mentioned the part about gay sex being evil, then I could see your point. Why would she also quote the bit about how guys who have gay sex should be killed, unless she too thinks so?
Clearly you either lack the capacity for critical thought or any sort of higher reasoning, or you suppress your ability to do so when it leads to conclusions you don't like.
97
96
In the quotation you listed she only factually describes what and how the Bible addresses the issue.
You make assumptions about her opinion that the quotation does not support.
(You do realize that all assumptions start with an Ass, don't you?...)
In the quotation you listed she only factually describes what and how the Bible addresses the issue.
You make assumptions about her opinion that the quotation does not support.
(You do realize that all assumptions start with an Ass, don't you?...)
99
i'm @95 but not @97 and we are not incorrect. and i can't speak for @97, but i'm not being obtuse and certainly not a moron. sorry. the woman did not advocate the execution of gays. she may believe it; i don't know, nor do you. you just assume you do.
100
Yes, she did.
What she said: "The Bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman. In Leviticus it says, 'If man lies with mankind as he would lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them.' The Bible is pretty black and white."
What she said paraphrased: "according to the Bible men who have sex with men are to be killed. It's very clear."
Not sure what you're having difficulty with here.
What she said: "The Bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman. In Leviticus it says, 'If man lies with mankind as he would lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them.' The Bible is pretty black and white."
What she said paraphrased: "according to the Bible men who have sex with men are to be killed. It's very clear."
Not sure what you're having difficulty with here.
101
Turns out the woman is a big lying fraud.
In a statement Wednesday, the city said it was "shocked" by Ashley's description of herself as "Miss Beverly Hills." The city "does not sponsor a beauty pageant and has no association with Miss California USA," the statement said. "As such, there should be no individual claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills."
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-…
106
@104: Aaand she also says that we should listen to that particular rule. It's not like she just said: "Leviticus says we should kill gay men. Well, ain't that a doozy."
"This law says that 'all persons that enjoy the taste of cranberry sauce shall be executed by firing squad'. Well, cranberry sauce is the devil's work, so we should take this seriously."
To torture my analogy even further, wouldn't that be expressing support for an obviously insane and unethical law?
"This law says that 'all persons that enjoy the taste of cranberry sauce shall be executed by firing squad'. Well, cranberry sauce is the devil's work, so we should take this seriously."
To torture my analogy even further, wouldn't that be expressing support for an obviously insane and unethical law?
107
Can't we all just agree to agree that interpreting the bible literally makes one a stupid person!
108
question: what do you think about same sex marriage?
dumb beauty contestant: homosexuality is wrong, the bible says homosexuality is wrong, gee whizz it says gay people should be put to death! that's some serious stuff.
what she didn't say: the bible says they should be killed and i think they should be killed. i have friends who are gay and i think they should be killed.
she uses the bible speaking of putting gays to death as an example of just how much god ain't kidding around with this whole gay thing.
she may be as dumb as a stump. she may be a bigot. but she simply has not stated that she believes that gays and lesbians should be put to death. and if you think it follows LOGICALLY from what she did say, you make the mistake of thinking she is a logical person.
no need for the hyperbole. exaggerating her statements doesn't win any arguments. it weakens our argument. stick to the facts if you feel you must use this idiot as some sort of rallying cry for the troops. she is hardly a spokesperson for anyone and has been given far too much attention for her idiocy.
dumb beauty contestant: homosexuality is wrong, the bible says homosexuality is wrong, gee whizz it says gay people should be put to death! that's some serious stuff.
what she didn't say: the bible says they should be killed and i think they should be killed. i have friends who are gay and i think they should be killed.
she uses the bible speaking of putting gays to death as an example of just how much god ain't kidding around with this whole gay thing.
she may be as dumb as a stump. she may be a bigot. but she simply has not stated that she believes that gays and lesbians should be put to death. and if you think it follows LOGICALLY from what she did say, you make the mistake of thinking she is a logical person.
no need for the hyperbole. exaggerating her statements doesn't win any arguments. it weakens our argument. stick to the facts if you feel you must use this idiot as some sort of rallying cry for the troops. she is hardly a spokesperson for anyone and has been given far too much attention for her idiocy.
110
We always wonder if Dan's numerous factually erroneous postings are intentional assholed attempts to stir up controversy or the result of ignorance exacerbated by bigotry.
We have charitably leaned toward the former but with time come to believe it is more of the latter.
Dan's assertion "....seems to think that the gays should be put to death." is in no way borne out by the long quotation he posts.
Overeagerness to pile on where he thinks a chance to score ideological points exists added to an obvious lack of journalistic skill or ethics layered over an evident reading comprehension handicap leave Dan's posts with all the usefulness and social value of the latest malicious manufactured gossip from the town old bitty.
We have charitably leaned toward the former but with time come to believe it is more of the latter.
Dan's assertion "....seems to think that the gays should be put to death." is in no way borne out by the long quotation he posts.
Overeagerness to pile on where he thinks a chance to score ideological points exists added to an obvious lack of journalistic skill or ethics layered over an evident reading comprehension handicap leave Dan's posts with all the usefulness and social value of the latest malicious manufactured gossip from the town old bitty.
112
You girls' are letting your prejudice cloud your already limited comprehension skills.
We personally don't know anything more of Miss BH than the quotation Dan posted (we do not share Mr Savage's obsession with California Beauty Queens, tho believe every post about one should include a bikini pic...) but the statement itself is carefully crafted brilliance. (if only Pelosi or Reid had a third the communication skills this statement exhibits... well... we digress...)
Let's take a look'see-
"The Bible says ...blahblahblah... shall be upon them.' The Bible is pretty black and white," Ashley told...."
>so far we have quoted the Bible and made a factually unimpeachable and ideologically neutral statement about the lack ambiguity in the quoted text.
"I feel like God himself created mankind and he loves everyone, and he has the best (hopes? plan? path to happiness? aspirations?) for everyone."
> here Miss BH makes the only assertions of personal conviction in the statement- stating a belief that
1-God created Mankind
2-He loves Everyone (even gays...) and
3-He has the best (something) for everyone.
She is on pretty safe ground here- belief in "God" is a widely held noncontroversial position in America, ascribing positive loving attributes to God is also a pretty safe move, and accepting that God 'knows best' is likewise not going to get her in much trouble, especially with the majority that believe in God anyway.
here is where it gets clever and brilliant:
"If he says that having sex with someone of your same gender is going to bring death upon you, that's a pretty stern warning..."
>she pointedly doesn't take ownership of God's "surely be put to death" thing but merely observes, again, that it is pretty unambiguous.
what she IS saying, Dan and fanboys, is: "I'm not saying Gays should be put to death but that Guy over there with a pocket full of fire and brimstone and an unhappy look on His face did, and..." The majority of Americans who do believe in God nod knowingly/approvingly, and "you faggots who don't believe in God can take it up with Him..."
"....and he knows more than we do about life."
> she ends on a (seemingly) positive note but delivers a piercing backhanded rebuke that her supporters will immediately pick up on (and agree with) and her detractors are powerless to counter- "If there is a God then He darn well is smarter than us and we would behoove ourselves to listen to Him...(and you filthy faggots would too, if you weren't depraved and perverted beyond hearing, feeling and understanding...)"
Again, the majority of Americans who do believe in God nod knowingly/approvingly, and "you faggots who don't believe in God can take it up with Him..."
We recognize that Slog's favorite "Christians" are the kind who rewrite scripture and God to match their personal philosophies but most Americans are going to sympathize with the "God knows best" position, even if they don't/won't live that way. And agreeing with Miss BH will be a painless way to make themselves feel righteous.
to summarize her statement-
Miss BH only affirms a belief in and acceptance of God.
All the controversial stuff is on His plate.
And if you don't like it you can take it up with Him (you filthy heathen animals...)
And so, unless, as Dan, they willfully or ignorantly misstate her position Miss BH's opponents are left to argue that the Bible/God are hate filled bigots, which is an argument they are not afraid to make but one that carries much much less sympathy in America than the "why can't these two cute Lesbians marry?..." argument.
Miss BH may not be brilliant but whoever crafted her statement is....
More...
We personally don't know anything more of Miss BH than the quotation Dan posted (we do not share Mr Savage's obsession with California Beauty Queens, tho believe every post about one should include a bikini pic...) but the statement itself is carefully crafted brilliance. (if only Pelosi or Reid had a third the communication skills this statement exhibits... well... we digress...)
Let's take a look'see-
"The Bible says ...blahblahblah... shall be upon them.' The Bible is pretty black and white," Ashley told...."
>so far we have quoted the Bible and made a factually unimpeachable and ideologically neutral statement about the lack ambiguity in the quoted text.
"I feel like God himself created mankind and he loves everyone, and he has the best (hopes? plan? path to happiness? aspirations?) for everyone."
> here Miss BH makes the only assertions of personal conviction in the statement- stating a belief that
1-God created Mankind
2-He loves Everyone (even gays...) and
3-He has the best (something) for everyone.
She is on pretty safe ground here- belief in "God" is a widely held noncontroversial position in America, ascribing positive loving attributes to God is also a pretty safe move, and accepting that God 'knows best' is likewise not going to get her in much trouble, especially with the majority that believe in God anyway.
here is where it gets clever and brilliant:
"If he says that having sex with someone of your same gender is going to bring death upon you, that's a pretty stern warning..."
>she pointedly doesn't take ownership of God's "surely be put to death" thing but merely observes, again, that it is pretty unambiguous.
what she IS saying, Dan and fanboys, is: "I'm not saying Gays should be put to death but that Guy over there with a pocket full of fire and brimstone and an unhappy look on His face did, and..." The majority of Americans who do believe in God nod knowingly/approvingly, and "you faggots who don't believe in God can take it up with Him..."
"....and he knows more than we do about life."
> she ends on a (seemingly) positive note but delivers a piercing backhanded rebuke that her supporters will immediately pick up on (and agree with) and her detractors are powerless to counter- "If there is a God then He darn well is smarter than us and we would behoove ourselves to listen to Him...(and you filthy faggots would too, if you weren't depraved and perverted beyond hearing, feeling and understanding...)"
Again, the majority of Americans who do believe in God nod knowingly/approvingly, and "you faggots who don't believe in God can take it up with Him..."
We recognize that Slog's favorite "Christians" are the kind who rewrite scripture and God to match their personal philosophies but most Americans are going to sympathize with the "God knows best" position, even if they don't/won't live that way. And agreeing with Miss BH will be a painless way to make themselves feel righteous.
to summarize her statement-
Miss BH only affirms a belief in and acceptance of God.
All the controversial stuff is on His plate.
And if you don't like it you can take it up with Him (you filthy heathen animals...)
And so, unless, as Dan, they willfully or ignorantly misstate her position Miss BH's opponents are left to argue that the Bible/God are hate filled bigots, which is an argument they are not afraid to make but one that carries much much less sympathy in America than the "why can't these two cute Lesbians marry?..." argument.
Miss BH may not be brilliant but whoever crafted her statement is....
114
101
Which lies and fraud were those?
The pageant said she complied with their rules and they have no problem with her.
The city should take their bitchy whining to the pageant officials who make the rules.
Which lies and fraud were those?
The pageant said she complied with their rules and they have no problem with her.
The city should take their bitchy whining to the pageant officials who make the rules.
115
Miss Beverly Hills clearly learned from Carrie's ambush and is loaded for bear.
And it is difficult to overstate how BRILLIANT her statement is (but let me try....)
She casts opponents in the position of:
1 arguing that God and the Bible are WRONG and HATEFUL and BIGOTED and must be REJECTED.
good luck with that one...
or
2 arguing that Some Parts of the Bible are WRONG and HATEFUL and BIGOTED and must be REJECTED and that
the only version of the Bible Americans are allowed to believe in the the Liberal Homo Approved version.
again, good luck.
Her benign position that "God (whomever/whatever He is) knows best and we would be wise to listen to Him..." will resonate like a clarion in troubled America.
And not just with fanatical rightwing evangelicals but with a huge majority who deep down have a general belief in God and an overwhelming sense that much in America is on the wrong track.
Miss Beverly Hills make be next month's Scott Brown....
And it is difficult to overstate how BRILLIANT her statement is (but let me try....)
She casts opponents in the position of:
1 arguing that God and the Bible are WRONG and HATEFUL and BIGOTED and must be REJECTED.
good luck with that one...
or
2 arguing that Some Parts of the Bible are WRONG and HATEFUL and BIGOTED and must be REJECTED and that
the only version of the Bible Americans are allowed to believe in the the Liberal Homo Approved version.
again, good luck.
Her benign position that "God (whomever/whatever He is) knows best and we would be wise to listen to Him..." will resonate like a clarion in troubled America.
And not just with fanatical rightwing evangelicals but with a huge majority who deep down have a general belief in God and an overwhelming sense that much in America is on the wrong track.
Miss Beverly Hills make be next month's Scott Brown....
116
113, How many hours a day do you spend searching for my entries?
114, There is no Miss Beverly Hills.
114, There is no Miss Beverly Hills.
117
116
hurry home-
momma's looking for her girdle
you'll have to go clubbing with those love handles jiggling tonite.
hurry home-
momma's looking for her girdle
you'll have to go clubbing with those love handles jiggling tonite.
118
112 and 115 ,
to give credit were credit is due. You have wonderfully dissected her statement, and I mean it. It’s indeed done in the best tradition of college debate groups and employs the known technique of persuasion.
However, her cowardly position is way too obvious to any thinking person. Granted, she puts the blame on God,believing that protects her from being seen as a bigot, etc.. herself. But the next logical question to her : "Let's say,hypothetically, the laws you mentioned were legalized. So here we have a gay man and a crowd ready to stone him, would you stand behind the man or the crowd / law that makes that deed legal?"
Here she would have to choose – to be a kind, true Christian that shows love or be a killer and hatemonger.
So techinically speaking she painted herself into a corner, as all revoking NT laws usually do. Most people who are, or claim to be Christians in America do not want to feel like killers.THey want to feel good about themselves ;)
to give credit were credit is due. You have wonderfully dissected her statement, and I mean it. It’s indeed done in the best tradition of college debate groups and employs the known technique of persuasion.
However, her cowardly position is way too obvious to any thinking person. Granted, she puts the blame on God,believing that protects her from being seen as a bigot, etc.. herself. But the next logical question to her : "Let's say,hypothetically, the laws you mentioned were legalized. So here we have a gay man and a crowd ready to stone him, would you stand behind the man or the crowd / law that makes that deed legal?"
Here she would have to choose – to be a kind, true Christian that shows love or be a killer and hatemonger.
So techinically speaking she painted herself into a corner, as all revoking NT laws usually do. Most people who are, or claim to be Christians in America do not want to feel like killers.THey want to feel good about themselves ;)
119
Same rationale can be seen reading history of "fights for the rights", esp. when Southern Baptist Church separated to maintain the right to slavery. Amazingly, more fire and brimstone supportive sermons and arguments were getting,the more NT laws were brought up , the less support pro-slavery position was getting.
Exodus 21-20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property” (Essentually- if a beaten man dies right away , you guilty , if his death wakes an agonizing 2 days or more, you are not responsible.)
It’s easy to hate an imaginary enemy (gay, slave) but if it put into concrete terms , majority of Americans in modern times would never want to be associated with this The current culture is totally different.
So the BH bitch is not all that smart… Actually, she is shooting herself in the foot, and doing things that eventually be contrary to her goal.
Exodus 21-20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property” (Essentually- if a beaten man dies right away , you guilty , if his death wakes an agonizing 2 days or more, you are not responsible.)
It’s easy to hate an imaginary enemy (gay, slave) but if it put into concrete terms , majority of Americans in modern times would never want to be associated with this The current culture is totally different.
So the BH bitch is not all that smart… Actually, she is shooting herself in the foot, and doing things that eventually be contrary to her goal.
120
The translated version of Exodus 21 20 might be a bit confusing
THis is how is reads:
"And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property."
THis is how is reads:
"And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property."
121
118
Thanks for your comment-
you reminded me something I left out-
When she does refer back to the quotation at the beginning she changes the statement to a passive voice:
"If he says that having sex with someone of your same gender is going to bring death upon you, that's a pretty stern warning..."
..."is going to bring death upon you..."
not "They shall surely be put to death..."
That buys her even more distance-
she doesn't even have to say "God said KILL them..."
but "their actions will bring death upon them-"; they do it to themselves...
Immediately a lot of people (again, the people she is really addressing) will think; "oh yeah, AIDS and whatever else- they engage in disgusting behavior and bring death upon themselves..."
I really think someone very clever crafted this beauty.
I agree with your points and when you parse it out etc etc
but I think in most people's minds it will only go as far as
"yeah, it's in the Bible and God said it..."
and they aren't going to carry it a lot further.
Thanks for your comment-
you reminded me something I left out-
When she does refer back to the quotation at the beginning she changes the statement to a passive voice:
"If he says that having sex with someone of your same gender is going to bring death upon you, that's a pretty stern warning..."
..."is going to bring death upon you..."
not "They shall surely be put to death..."
That buys her even more distance-
she doesn't even have to say "God said KILL them..."
but "their actions will bring death upon them-"; they do it to themselves...
Immediately a lot of people (again, the people she is really addressing) will think; "oh yeah, AIDS and whatever else- they engage in disgusting behavior and bring death upon themselves..."
I really think someone very clever crafted this beauty.
I agree with your points and when you parse it out etc etc
but I think in most people's minds it will only go as far as
"yeah, it's in the Bible and God said it..."
and they aren't going to carry it a lot further.
122
Agreed.
Indeed would be very nice to utilize her crafty speechwriter's brains for good goals.Presuming he is not a radical rightwing nut and believes that crap but have done it just to give her publicity.
Obama can use him.
Indeed would be very nice to utilize her crafty speechwriter's brains for good goals.Presuming he is not a radical rightwing nut and believes that crap but have done it just to give her publicity.
Obama can use him.
123
@121: Your analysis is pure hooey. If the passage had read "they shall surely die", then you would have a point. The presence of the phrase "put to death" mandates that they be killed by others, and in fact does call for the execution of gays.
And if you think that people won't actually want to kill gays because Leviticus says so, just look at Uganda, and remember that their new bill to kill gays is all but sponsored by Christian organizations in America.
And if you think that people won't actually want to kill gays because Leviticus says so, just look at Uganda, and remember that their new bill to kill gays is all but sponsored by Christian organizations in America.
124
@ #121 - If you honestly think this Beauty Queen failure is crafty enough to speak in such a way as to distance herself from such biblical rhetoric, then you're as ignorant as she is.
No. You're worse, to think we're the ones over analyzing her comments. I call bullshit on your pseudo intellectual distancing of her comments.
No. You're worse, to think we're the ones over analyzing her comments. I call bullshit on your pseudo intellectual distancing of her comments.
125
123
Of course it does.
And of course they do.
The point is that MsBH put it out there but also kept her distance.
Face it- you've been punked...
124
It's self evident, grandma
Not only is she, she did.
As for the BS: you can call it, scramble it or wear it in your hair- makes no diff to me....
Of course it does.
And of course they do.
The point is that MsBH put it out there but also kept her distance.
Face it- you've been punked...
124
It's self evident, grandma
Not only is she, she did.
As for the BS: you can call it, scramble it or wear it in your hair- makes no diff to me....
126
@125: Make all the excuses you want, spin the facts as much as you want, and whine like a butthurt fanboy 'til your vocal cords strangle you in revenge for overworking them, but you can't change the fact that she clearly did imply that gays should be killed. Read the transcript and it is immediately apparent that the distance she kept was, while not in the range of cohabitation, definitely close enough for her to easily pop in and borrow an egg or something.
And yes, I suppose I have been punked...I've been wasting my time conversing with a punk bitch.
And yes, I suppose I have been punked...I've been wasting my time conversing with a punk bitch.
127
As to cherrypicking Leviticus: When I was a poor Pagan lad, forced into Methodist Bible classes to save my benighted queer, heathen soul, I recall a very seldom-mentioned passage they covered. It regarded a woman in 'the time of her uncleanliness, when she is defiled' This merant for a week to either side of her period, and when she had given birth as I recall. During this time she was forbidden community and human contact, everyone and everything who interacted with her was 'defiled and polluted' to the point where objects had to be destroyed and people needed days of ritual cleansing baths in 'living water ' baths far from the camp. Her 'uncleanliness as so foul in the sight of YVWH at this time that if she 'lay with a man' at this time 'their blood is upon them, let them be stoned to death'. Apparently God hates cameltoe and its natural processes as much as He does fags, huh? Strangee the fundamentalists never quote this one, isn't it?
128
Well, let them be, just that! There two choices, two roads to take upon, they want to be gay, let them be, but they are warned about consequences and whatever, if the Bible says such things, may be they are too ignorant to know (like me, but I try to be as straight as I can be with God's Rules) and go for the other rad, that is traveled by many these days, even without themselves knowing. They have the power to choose what to do, whether is right or wrong (via different types of views and interpretation VS the real Truth, which only Gods Knows), they want to be gay, let them be. I can care less about that, I am not against it, or with it, I am just neutral, not careless ( if I was, I wouldn't be here commenting) Other people shouldn't decide other people lives, I mean they are mature enough too do that, whatever society has made them, they had made themselves, we are what we make us, last word is from ourselves, God decides the last judgment. What she said is simply an oppositional opinion against that form of thinking and lifestyle (Gay), she probably hates them and that's because she was raised as much of us straight and little bit selfish, and shout mouth person (lol), that's ok, she is just a Model, a person, bound to make mistakes as probably all of us.
Great Article :)
Great Article :)
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