Slog
News & ArtsMonday, February 22, 2010
Sex When Miscarriages Are a Crime...
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 4:06 PM
...only criminals will have miscarriages.
A bill passed by the Utah House and Senate this week and waiting for the governor's signature, will make it a crime for a woman to have a miscarriage.... In addition to criminalizing an intentional attempt to induce a miscarriage or abortion, the bill also creates a standard that could make women legally responsible for miscarriages caused by "reckless" behavior. Using the legal standard of "reckless behavior" all a district attorney needs to show is that a woman behaved in a manner that is thought to cause miscarriage, even if she didn't intend to lose the pregnancy.
If the governor signs the bill into law a woman in Utah who intentionally or accidentally induces a miscarriage can be charged with criminal homicide and sentenced to life in prison.
Um... Utah?
If every miscarriage is a potential homicide, how does Utah avoid launching a criminal investigation every time a woman has a miscarriage? And women have a lot of miscarriages: one in four pregnancies end in a miscarriage. And how is Utah supposed to know when a pregnant woman has had a miscarriage? You're going to have to create some sort of pregnancy registry to keep track of all those fetuses, Utah. Perhaps you could start issuing "conception certificates" to women who get pregnant? And then, if there isn't a baby within nine months of the issuance of a conception certificate, the woman could be hauled in for questioning and she could be indicted for criminal homicide if it's determined that she intentionally or accidentally induced a miscarriage. Of course, lots of women miscarry before they even realize their pregnant... so Utah will have to pass another law, one that compels all sexually active women—actually, let's just say all women, Utah, since some sexually active women claim they're chaste—to come in for mandatory monthly pregnancy tests...
1
Actually, statistics over long periods show that criminalizing abortions, or even miscarriages, just leads to more women dying - and even MORE abortions and miscarriages.
Always.
Always.
3
Well, at least the pregnancy rates will go down here when large numbers of women are in jail for miscarrying..... good news for the overcrowded schools.
6
What a huge surprise that the Mormon State supports enforced pregnancy. Get those womenfolk incubating the future armies of the Lord!
What a fucking wasteland.
What a fucking wasteland.
8
This law sounds like a weapon to be used against a certain segment of women, because you can be sure there will be a lot of "discretion" over who to prosecute. Poor women, women with substance abuse issues, women who disobey their families, women in abusive relationships.
9
You know what I really needed to hear when I lost my first (and second, and third, all wanted and desperately mourned) pregnancies? "I saw that glass of wine last week. You have the right to remain silent."
10
I'm guessing that this will be held to be unconstitutional within about 15 minutes of the time the Governor signs it. What a colossal waste of taxpayer money.
11
"so it looks like Utah is going to have to pass another law, one that compels all sexually active women—let's just say all women, Utah, since some sexually active women claim they're chaste—to come in for mandatory monthly pregnancy tests..."
Please don't give them any more ideas!
Please don't give them any more ideas!
12
Very weird. The forced pregnancy movement always avoids criminalizing the mother in anti-abortion statutes, where they focus on the doctor. I guess they're just trying to make more laws that make a fetus a life - like statutes that make murdering a pregnant woman two counts of murder. In any case, another stepping stone to overturning Roe v. Wade.
14
It's only insane when you're on the outside looking into Utah (or an outsider living in Utah).
Otherwise, this is pretty typical Utah legislative action -short-sighted, completely ludicrous, and totally fucked up. Alas, critical thinking skills and/or intelligence are not prerequisites to becoming a legislator in Utah - rather, they seem to look for the opposite.
Ironically, they're in the process of relaxing regulations on booster seats and seat belts for kids - two things that save the lives of LIVING children - meanwhile increasing regulations on the UNBORN. At least they are consistent in their Republican values; protect the unborn, to hell with the already born.
Otherwise, this is pretty typical Utah legislative action -short-sighted, completely ludicrous, and totally fucked up. Alas, critical thinking skills and/or intelligence are not prerequisites to becoming a legislator in Utah - rather, they seem to look for the opposite.
Ironically, they're in the process of relaxing regulations on booster seats and seat belts for kids - two things that save the lives of LIVING children - meanwhile increasing regulations on the UNBORN. At least they are consistent in their Republican values; protect the unborn, to hell with the already born.
15
Oh shit. Allegedly is still going strong in the comments thread on Cienna's abortion post from last week. Now he's going to go on and on and on about the millions of ghost babies that the rest of us call miscarriages.
I'll get him started: Allegedly! Yoohoo!!! Why don't you life-begins-at-conception types cry over miscarried babies? They're lots more common than abortions....
(OK, now 3...2..1...)
I'll get him started: Allegedly! Yoohoo!!! Why don't you life-begins-at-conception types cry over miscarried babies? They're lots more common than abortions....
(OK, now 3...2..1...)
16
Let's see the overlooked :
http://www.abc4.com/s/cdkcotdTvUWjZSfjmS….
So what wont be allowed is for legal abortions to be performed by those who are not licensed physicians. It seems to me that this is a good and reasonable measure to take if for nothing else than the health of women who might be contemplating this as well as for securing that illegal abortions and endangerment and abuse of those who.have no voice is not perpetrated.
"A proposed change in Utah law would narrowly define abortion as a “medical procedure under the supervision of a licensed physician.”
"The issue became a point-of-concern when a 7 month pregnant Vernal girl paid a man 150-dollars to beat-her-up until she miscarried. The baby lived and was adopted by a family.
The courts convicted the man of child endangerment, but the girl could not be prosecuted under Utah law. This amendment, sponsored by Representative Carl Wimmer of Herriman, would change that."
http://www.abc4.com/s/cdkcotdTvUWjZSfjmS….
So what wont be allowed is for legal abortions to be performed by those who are not licensed physicians. It seems to me that this is a good and reasonable measure to take if for nothing else than the health of women who might be contemplating this as well as for securing that illegal abortions and endangerment and abuse of those who.have no voice is not perpetrated.
19
Finally!
So, will this law cover women who make "questionable" birthing decisions that result in the death of the fetus?
How about a woman who has a VBAC in which there's a complication and the baby dies? Will we finally prosecute these women for not having a c-section which is often safer for the baby but perhaps more risky for the mother?
How about women who choose to deliver at home? One study found that "women who give birth at home aided by an independent midwife are almost three times as likely to have a stillbirth than those who deliver their child in hospital." Shall we now prosecute these women?
Silly Americans. Everybody knows the government and insurance companies, not the patient and her doctor, should decide the best method of delivering a baby.
So, will this law cover women who make "questionable" birthing decisions that result in the death of the fetus?
How about a woman who has a VBAC in which there's a complication and the baby dies? Will we finally prosecute these women for not having a c-section which is often safer for the baby but perhaps more risky for the mother?
How about women who choose to deliver at home? One study found that "women who give birth at home aided by an independent midwife are almost three times as likely to have a stillbirth than those who deliver their child in hospital." Shall we now prosecute these women?
Silly Americans. Everybody knows the government and insurance companies, not the patient and her doctor, should decide the best method of delivering a baby.
20
All this AND they want to reduce the size of government and reduce spending at the same time. How would they propose paying for the massive increase in law enforcement and medical personnel necessary to enforce goofy laws like this? With bibles?
21
@6:
That was sort of my thinking as well. I mean, seeing as it's Utah, the magic underwear crowd just sort of assumes that if she's of child-bearing age, then by Joseph Smith there's something not right with that young 'un if'n she ain't preggers.
That was sort of my thinking as well. I mean, seeing as it's Utah, the magic underwear crowd just sort of assumes that if she's of child-bearing age, then by Joseph Smith there's something not right with that young 'un if'n she ain't preggers.
23
what wont be allowed is for legal abortions to be performed by those who are not licensed physicians. It seems to me that this is a good and reasonable measure to take blah blah blah
A medical procedure performed by someone who is not a licensed physician is by definition not legal. Get it? Illegal abortions are ALREADY AGAINST THE LAW. Moron.
A medical procedure performed by someone who is not a licensed physician is by definition not legal. Get it? Illegal abortions are ALREADY AGAINST THE LAW. Moron.
24
@16
In Utah, the law may be written one way, but it is interpreted in another way. It's the good 'ol Mormon boys club here - from the legislature to the judicial branch - and believe me, they don't care one whit about the health of women here. Women are merely breeders and housekeepers, better to be seen (preferably pregnant) rather than heard, and the men are always looking to reinforce their control over them.
This girl made a poor choice, but she is also a victim of desperate circumstances. Vernal is off in the boonies - there is no Planned Parenthood anywhere close, and they don't do any form of sex-ed here in Utah (that legislation just died in the Senate today). Perhaps if she had access to contraception, or had received sex-ed and understood how to prevent pregnancy, this whole situation could have been prevented. Instead, kids here are told "don't do it". Given the number of chlamydia and gonorrhea cases in this state for kids under 19, that's obviously been very effective.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/70530…
But rather than address the root of the problem, the legislators here opt for the ridiculous legislation that allows them to prosecute women for suspicious miscarriages.
The bill amendments:
http://le.utah.gov/~2010/bills/hbillint/…
In Utah, the law may be written one way, but it is interpreted in another way. It's the good 'ol Mormon boys club here - from the legislature to the judicial branch - and believe me, they don't care one whit about the health of women here. Women are merely breeders and housekeepers, better to be seen (preferably pregnant) rather than heard, and the men are always looking to reinforce their control over them.
This girl made a poor choice, but she is also a victim of desperate circumstances. Vernal is off in the boonies - there is no Planned Parenthood anywhere close, and they don't do any form of sex-ed here in Utah (that legislation just died in the Senate today). Perhaps if she had access to contraception, or had received sex-ed and understood how to prevent pregnancy, this whole situation could have been prevented. Instead, kids here are told "don't do it". Given the number of chlamydia and gonorrhea cases in this state for kids under 19, that's obviously been very effective.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/70530…
But rather than address the root of the problem, the legislators here opt for the ridiculous legislation that allows them to prosecute women for suspicious miscarriages.
The bill amendments:
http://le.utah.gov/~2010/bills/hbillint/…
26
Look, people, I want to see the flipside of these stupid MF'ing laws. When is Utah going to start charging fetuses when the mother dies at birth, with murder? EVERY DAY MURDERERS GO FREE, UTAH! Lil' tiny killers. Lock em up and throw away the key. Idiots.
30
The most insane thing about the whole insane deal is that if this law ever gets to The Mudville Nine, it's pretty positively getting four "yay" votes in support of it. Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and Scalia's toilet slave Thomas will rubber stamp any "pro-life" law that comes up in front of them.
I don't think Kennedy's currently insane enough to back it, but I didn't think he was insane enough to back the corporate citizenship decision either.
I don't think Kennedy's currently insane enough to back it, but I didn't think he was insane enough to back the corporate citizenship decision either.
32
@13 - um, holy shit.
And @17 - How is this never going to happen? Has the governor said he's not going to sign it? This isn't just some crazy legislator bill that was introduced and likely isn't going to go anywhere (like the Florida bill in Cienna's post). It was passed by the House and the Senate.
Here's the text of the bill, by the way. It does have language exempting a woman for refusing a C-section or medical treatment. So, um, that's something.
And @17 - How is this never going to happen? Has the governor said he's not going to sign it? This isn't just some crazy legislator bill that was introduced and likely isn't going to go anywhere (like the Florida bill in Cienna's post). It was passed by the House and the Senate.
Here's the text of the bill, by the way. It does have language exempting a woman for refusing a C-section or medical treatment. So, um, that's something.
34
@9: My sister had three miscarriages and those pregnancies were badly wanted and mourned too. This is just unspeakably cruel.
36
On page 9 of the bill, they state that abortions are legal in Utah ONLY when the fetus is not viable, or the life of the mother is threatened (verified by at least two experts), or in the case of rape or incest; otherwise, it's homicide.
Is this a new stipulation, or is this just a clarification of existing Utah laws?
Is this a new stipulation, or is this just a clarification of existing Utah laws?
37
@35 It makes me extremely uncomfortable that your response to this terrible law being passed is to insist that not only should we do nothing, but we should FEEL nothing because you think the law won't hold up. This law is offensive. It is worthy of being offended about even if you are right and it doesn't hold up. The fact that the Utah legislature would pass this is painful regardless of whether or not our court system will halt their stupidity. Can you imagine if the Utah legislature passed a law making it illegal for blacks to vote? The outrage would shake the nation because we aren't willing to tolerate such idiocy. But when they pass a law like this, we should just not care?
38
So i guess it's ok for a woman to ask her buddy to punch her repeatedly in the gut to help her expel her 7 month old baby. Charming. I'd love to have her as a neighbor.
39
"Perhaps if she had access to contraception, or had received sex-ed and understood how to prevent pregnancy"
Sure, a woman who asked her buddy to punch out her 7 month old unborn baby just needed a lesson in how to slip a rubber on before cock squatting. Give me a break.
FYI I believe in legal abortion up to 6 months. After that, unless having the kid's gonna kill you, you're having that human.
Sure, a woman who asked her buddy to punch out her 7 month old unborn baby just needed a lesson in how to slip a rubber on before cock squatting. Give me a break.
FYI I believe in legal abortion up to 6 months. After that, unless having the kid's gonna kill you, you're having that human.
41
@39 I find it interesting to see the terms that people substitute for the "having sex" when they are declaring that a woman had no right to an abortion. It seems like there is a desire not only to express moral outrage about the abortion, but also the sex. I'm curious. What made you decide to use "cock squatting?"
Note: I also think that elective abortions at 7 months is not acceptable. That being said, what she did is terribly odd, and I do wonder about the circumstances surrounding the whole thing. What made her think that hiring someone to beat her up so that she miscarried was the best option? What could we have done to help her access other options? It's all well and good to get upset when someone commits a heinous act like this, but I'd rather do what I can to prevent it from happening in the future.
Note: I also think that elective abortions at 7 months is not acceptable. That being said, what she did is terribly odd, and I do wonder about the circumstances surrounding the whole thing. What made her think that hiring someone to beat her up so that she miscarried was the best option? What could we have done to help her access other options? It's all well and good to get upset when someone commits a heinous act like this, but I'd rather do what I can to prevent it from happening in the future.
42
I still mourn my misborn, named child. He was mere weeks in exsitance and very loved. He was Alex. I have never recovered the lose of this unexpected and then lost life. I am totally and completely pro-choice. I didn't get the choice with this wanted and loved child. I would have had him, but, I'm perfectly intilted to make the choice to not have him. The end result was the same. How can you possibly "outlaw" miscarriage. I WANTED the baby I lost. I still have dreams about him. And this law would PROSECUTE me for the death of a child I wanted? Oh, fuck you. I don't suffer and question myself everyday since? Who does this government think they are????? Butt the hell out and leave us to our grieve. Believe it or not all abortions are grieved, regardless of the circumstances. You are not helping anyone when you chose to judge and condemn. You only drive away those you wish to save. God bless us all.
43
Dear Seattle,
Your reactions to this article are why I love and miss you most. Keep up the good fight for the rest of us trapped in the savage wastelands that are red states.... even AZ isn't this crazy...
Your reactions to this article are why I love and miss you most. Keep up the good fight for the rest of us trapped in the savage wastelands that are red states.... even AZ isn't this crazy...
44
It's not a problem. The woman will just go in for a temple recommend interview and her bishop will determine if she was reckless with her pregnancy.
bishops are inspired by god to receive personal revelation about the members of their congregations. for things just like this!
bishops are inspired by god to receive personal revelation about the members of their congregations. for things just like this!
45
40, I think 19 may be referring to this:
Obstetrics & Gynecology: 2002-Volume 100- Issue 2
p.253-259
Choice advocates are right to link abortion rights to broader rights for women. In fact, I prefer the term "reproductive freedom." It seems but a hop, skip, and jump, from "You must carry this pregnancy," to "You should be prosecuted for drinking wine or beer while pregnant," or "You must birth in the manner we approve."
Obstetrics & Gynecology: 2002-Volume 100- Issue 2
p.253-259
Choice advocates are right to link abortion rights to broader rights for women. In fact, I prefer the term "reproductive freedom." It seems but a hop, skip, and jump, from "You must carry this pregnancy," to "You should be prosecuted for drinking wine or beer while pregnant," or "You must birth in the manner we approve."
46
@38 and 39. Thinking that this bill is insane does not mean that one approves of the specific circumstance that brought it about. The legislature didn't respond by enacting a narrow law that would address a specific set of circumstances (e.g., acting with intent to kill a fetus in the third trimester). They passed a very broad bill that could be applied in any number of situations (e.g., the "reckless" language, applying to any point during the pregnancy, applying even when the woman did not intend to terminate the pregnancy). That is what people are responding to.
49
@31 thank god, i was starting to worry i was the only one who was focused on what's important here.
50
So if I fall down the stairs in the lovely state of Utah, does that mean I could be prosecuted? What if I don't know I'm pregnant and I'm an athlete and put a lot of stress on my body? It could happen, a women an acquaintance of mine knew didn't realize she was 3 months preggers until she'd already finished a somewhat hellish military training course. It's a wonder the fetus didn't run screaming out of the womb with all the stress she was under!
51
@39
She was a 17-year-old girl.
If you had read/copied/pasted the rest of my comment rather than cherry-picking, you would have gotten to the part about "the whole situation could have been prevented".
Let me repeat -THERE IS NO SEX-ED IN UTAH. It's not taught in the schools, it is not talked about in the home aside from "if you do it you are bad, so don't do it".
Trust me, some of these kids, especially in the rural areas, really are that dumb when it comes to the facts of life. They even censor TV here - we don't get all the broadcast network shows that other places do. SNL is not shown on the NBC affiliate here because it "offends" the church-owned station.
Utah can blame its birth rate and STD rate on the fucking freak Gayle Ruzicka of the Eagle Forum (morals queen whose druggie son overdosed) who thinks if kids are educated about sex, they'll start having it.
Utah abortion laws were already pretty restrictive before this, now they're even worse. The ultimate goal of the churchislature here is to subvert Roe vs. Wade, though they'll try to go through as many back doors as possible rather than openly challenge it.
She was a 17-year-old girl.
If you had read/copied/pasted the rest of my comment rather than cherry-picking, you would have gotten to the part about "the whole situation could have been prevented".
Let me repeat -THERE IS NO SEX-ED IN UTAH. It's not taught in the schools, it is not talked about in the home aside from "if you do it you are bad, so don't do it".
Trust me, some of these kids, especially in the rural areas, really are that dumb when it comes to the facts of life. They even censor TV here - we don't get all the broadcast network shows that other places do. SNL is not shown on the NBC affiliate here because it "offends" the church-owned station.
Utah can blame its birth rate and STD rate on the fucking freak Gayle Ruzicka of the Eagle Forum (morals queen whose druggie son overdosed) who thinks if kids are educated about sex, they'll start having it.
Utah abortion laws were already pretty restrictive before this, now they're even worse. The ultimate goal of the churchislature here is to subvert Roe vs. Wade, though they'll try to go through as many back doors as possible rather than openly challenge it.
52
Utah is sounding more and more like one big state-sized People's Temple compound.
It does amaze me how often the anti-abortion crowd assume that unwanted pregnancies are universally due to a misstep of the woman in question, that she consented to sex without protection, not even acknowledging that protection sometimes fails and that women don't always get to peacefully consent. It's only a half-step away from saying rape is the fault of the victim.
Women continue to be the most oppressed minority of them all.
It does amaze me how often the anti-abortion crowd assume that unwanted pregnancies are universally due to a misstep of the woman in question, that she consented to sex without protection, not even acknowledging that protection sometimes fails and that women don't always get to peacefully consent. It's only a half-step away from saying rape is the fault of the victim.
Women continue to be the most oppressed minority of them all.
53
So what if the law is a response to some girl having herself beat up. Shove the paternalism person with love in their name! You don't write laws that sets such a facist predecent towards half the population based on such an incident. And the kind of thinking that comes up with such laws to "protect" women is facist.
55
@15
"the bill does not affect legally obtained abortions; it criminalizes any actions taken by women to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care"
As a health care provider do you think it is appropriate or healthy for women to seek to self induce abortion or miscarriage outside a physcician's care?
"the bill does not affect legally obtained abortions; it criminalizes any actions taken by women to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care"
As a health care provider do you think it is appropriate or healthy for women to seek to self induce abortion or miscarriage outside a physcician's care?
56
Dan, did you read the linked article with the wording of the law?
It only affects actions taken by women to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care. as you note, "Of course, lots of women miscarry before they even realize their(sic) pregnant..."; if a woman didn't know she was pregnant how could see seek to induce a miscarriage or abortion? It seems the law would not apply to those women.
It only affects actions taken by women to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care. as you note, "Of course, lots of women miscarry before they even realize their(sic) pregnant..."; if a woman didn't know she was pregnant how could see seek to induce a miscarriage or abortion? It seems the law would not apply to those women.
57
It really hurts my brain how the one of the main mantras of conservatism is "keep the government out of our lives" but their pet causes all seem to be about that same government gaining more and more control over people sex lives, reproductive choices, and leisure activities. It's genuinely odd.
58
Well, Uriel @ 52, while you were out last week world building, a bunch of your fellow commenters on Slog DID blame women for rape:
slog.thestranger.com/slog/.../children-t…
nice, eh?
slog.thestranger.com/slog/.../children-t…
nice, eh?
60
@56
The problem is with the interpretation of the law. If a woman falls down the stairs accidentally and that results in a miscarriage, that could be interpreted as attempting to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care, especially if she expressed any concern about having yet another kid to anyone. This would be of even greater concern in the rural areas, where a woman who has not been faithful to the church may be persecuted - and prosecuted - by the red neck neanderthals that run a lot of them.
The problem is with the interpretation of the law. If a woman falls down the stairs accidentally and that results in a miscarriage, that could be interpreted as attempting to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care, especially if she expressed any concern about having yet another kid to anyone. This would be of even greater concern in the rural areas, where a woman who has not been faithful to the church may be persecuted - and prosecuted - by the red neck neanderthals that run a lot of them.
61
Sounds like Utah is one step away from "The Handmaid's Tale". Time for normal Utahns to move one state in any direction before they are forced to bear Mormon young.
63
Someone should suggest that all Utahnian men get sterilised. Just in case one of them have miscarriage inducing sperm.
64
@57: They mean "Government shouldn't interfere with my ability to make money in a shady way and avoid taxes on it" when they talk about small government. The religious extremist arm of the "conservatives" are perfectly fine with government intruding on social, private, personal issues.
Alternatively, the fiscal conservatives know they wouldn't have anything close to enough voters to get any GOP candidates into office without courting the zealously religious wingnuts, so they let them in under the tent so that they can win elections.
Alternatively, the fiscal conservatives know they wouldn't have anything close to enough voters to get any GOP candidates into office without courting the zealously religious wingnuts, so they let them in under the tent so that they can win elections.
65
I can't remember who said it, but one of the commenters stated that all abortions are grieved, too. That is very true.
When I was 17 (almost 18) and in my first semester of college, I got pregnant by my boyfriend at the time. I wasn't being some stupid teenager who refused to use a condom; the condom broke, and I found out I was pregnant during finals week. Shortly after, I turned 18, and went to the Planned Parenthood in my town.
It was horrible. The people who worked there were great, but I had to be escorted inside by armed security, and there were protesters screaming at me. I wasn't thinking, "yay! now I get to have an abortion!" I was crushed, and felt a profound sense of loss. But having that baby would have been the end of my life as I knew it, since I didn't have a job or a stable place to live at the time, and my family would have disowned me. I was not going to bring a child into the world that I couldn't care for, and I was not in the position where I could afford to be disowned.
Some people found out about it, and completely ditched me as friends after that. I suffered with horrible depression and guilt afterward. But three years later, looking back, I can see that I made the right choice for myself, and I don't feel bad anymore.
So anyone who thinks that women just line up to have abortions and don't have any feelings about it is just ignorant.
When I was 17 (almost 18) and in my first semester of college, I got pregnant by my boyfriend at the time. I wasn't being some stupid teenager who refused to use a condom; the condom broke, and I found out I was pregnant during finals week. Shortly after, I turned 18, and went to the Planned Parenthood in my town.
It was horrible. The people who worked there were great, but I had to be escorted inside by armed security, and there were protesters screaming at me. I wasn't thinking, "yay! now I get to have an abortion!" I was crushed, and felt a profound sense of loss. But having that baby would have been the end of my life as I knew it, since I didn't have a job or a stable place to live at the time, and my family would have disowned me. I was not going to bring a child into the world that I couldn't care for, and I was not in the position where I could afford to be disowned.
Some people found out about it, and completely ditched me as friends after that. I suffered with horrible depression and guilt afterward. But three years later, looking back, I can see that I made the right choice for myself, and I don't feel bad anymore.
So anyone who thinks that women just line up to have abortions and don't have any feelings about it is just ignorant.
67
@64: It's just so transparent, such an obvious contradiction and so clearly hypocritical that I have no idea how these people can possibly buy into it. I suppose I'm giving too many people too much credit... but come on, how you don't have to be a genius to notice a fucking huge discrepancy. BRAIN. HURT.
68
@19- I was curious about the home birth vs. hospital birth safety issue, so looked it up on the cochrane database. As there haven't been any large studies, there is no way to say which is more safe.
Here's the link
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab000…
Here's the link
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab000…
69
It's Utah! If they could somehow strip women of all their rights while making polygamy legal again without having to succeed from the union, they would.
70
@16: Wow, that's just surreal. A 17-year old girl is so freaked out about being pregnant, so convinced she doesn't have any viable options, that she waits until the 7th month and then pays someone to beat her up . . . and you want to prosecute her for that?
I'm sorry, Utah is clearly not concerned about that girl's wellbeing. Firstly, it WOULD be far healthier for her to have had a legal abortion -- which presumably wasn't accessible or affordable for her or else she would have done that. (Abortions aren't pleasant, but they're still better than getting beat up enough induce miscarriage.) Criminalizing miscarriage won't bring women like her to a liscenced physician to get an abortion.
Most likely someone that desperate not to have a child is going to go ahead and do something dumb and dangerous anyway, and just try to cover it up.
Secondly, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HELP SOMEONE BY ARRESTING THEM? Has it occured to anyone on the Utah legislature that the emotional welbeing of pregnant women might be important for fetal health? That once the kid's born, the quality of his/her childhood will have an awful lot to do with the quality of the mother's life, her self-esteem, her self-confidence -- all of which are undermined by treating her as a potential murderer while she's pregnant?
Thirdly, exactly how much does the state of Utah do in terms of making sure pregnant women have access to high-quality prenatal care, and that mothers have access to health care, child care, etc once the child is born? A very strong motivating factor in many abortions (or, presumably, not-so-accidental miscarriages) is financial worries, not being sure you can afford to take good care of a child. Seems to me that a good way to make sure there are fewer abortions (and intentional miscarriages) is to make sure that women who might want to be mothers, can afford to be mothers.
This law can't possibly help anyone. All it will do is scare women away from getting proper pre-natal care, for fear they'll be prosecuted if anything goes wrong.
Finally, there's an inherent sexism in the broader context. When a man and a women have unprotected sex under unadvisable circumstances, and the woman gets pregnant, it's easy to blame her. But the guy who got her pregnant . . . in many cases no one ever even knows. The inherent unfairness of women having to deal with more of the consequences of sex is bad enough. But when you criminalize pregnant women on top of that, that's just outrageously unfair.
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I'm sorry, Utah is clearly not concerned about that girl's wellbeing. Firstly, it WOULD be far healthier for her to have had a legal abortion -- which presumably wasn't accessible or affordable for her or else she would have done that. (Abortions aren't pleasant, but they're still better than getting beat up enough induce miscarriage.) Criminalizing miscarriage won't bring women like her to a liscenced physician to get an abortion.
Most likely someone that desperate not to have a child is going to go ahead and do something dumb and dangerous anyway, and just try to cover it up.
Secondly, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HELP SOMEONE BY ARRESTING THEM? Has it occured to anyone on the Utah legislature that the emotional welbeing of pregnant women might be important for fetal health? That once the kid's born, the quality of his/her childhood will have an awful lot to do with the quality of the mother's life, her self-esteem, her self-confidence -- all of which are undermined by treating her as a potential murderer while she's pregnant?
Thirdly, exactly how much does the state of Utah do in terms of making sure pregnant women have access to high-quality prenatal care, and that mothers have access to health care, child care, etc once the child is born? A very strong motivating factor in many abortions (or, presumably, not-so-accidental miscarriages) is financial worries, not being sure you can afford to take good care of a child. Seems to me that a good way to make sure there are fewer abortions (and intentional miscarriages) is to make sure that women who might want to be mothers, can afford to be mothers.
This law can't possibly help anyone. All it will do is scare women away from getting proper pre-natal care, for fear they'll be prosecuted if anything goes wrong.
Finally, there's an inherent sexism in the broader context. When a man and a women have unprotected sex under unadvisable circumstances, and the woman gets pregnant, it's easy to blame her. But the guy who got her pregnant . . . in many cases no one ever even knows. The inherent unfairness of women having to deal with more of the consequences of sex is bad enough. But when you criminalize pregnant women on top of that, that's just outrageously unfair.
71
Thanks, Dan, for picking this up from RH Reality Check.
Unfortunately, laws like this one proposed in Utah aren't as outrageous as you might think. No, there no laws on the books that criminalize miscarriages in this country. However, the increasing numbers of state feticide laws fashioned from our Unborn Victims of Violence Act (federal) have been used to prosecute, jail, and terrorize pregnant and parenting women. In Iowa, last month, a pregnant woman who was also a mother to two daughters, was arrested in the ER of a local hospital where she had gone b/c she accidentally fell down the stairs and was worried about the well being of her fetus. When she admitted to the nurse that she was feeling uncertain about carrying her pregnancy to term (her husband had recently left her, she was terrified, etc.), the nurse called the doctor over who then called the police - who brought her to jail.
Why?
Because under this "feticide" law (laws that say that anyone who intentionally hurts a pregnant woman causing the death of the fetus can be charged for crimes against the fetus and crimes against the pregnant woman), a person who "intentionally causes the death of her fetus after the end of the second trimester" can be criminally prosecuted. And though some laws specifically state that the woman herself cannot be prosecuted for the crime - its happened. In South Carolina. In Iowa. Around the country. Though she was only in the beginning of her second trimester, this nurse and doctor (and the police) decided that she may have intentionally thrown herself down the stairs to cause "the death of her fetus" AND SHE WAS JAILED for it. There was NO evidence - she came into the ER willingly and happened to admit that she was feeling uncertain about keeping her pregnancy.
Charges were dropped NOT because the law is a heinous piece of anti-woman, handmaids tale legislation but because it was proven that she was in her second trimester and not third.
So, yeah, this Utah law is horrific but I hope no one fools themselves into thinking this is it. The anti-choice movement has made it their mission not to "protect the lives of the unborn" (if they wanted to do that they would: lobby for and support universal access to prenatal care for pregnant women, lobby for and support widespread access to contraception which helps reduce maternal mortality rates worldwide, ensure all women have access to high quality care during childbirth, etc.) but to remain unceasingly vicious in their attempts to block access to legal, safe abortion care through heinous laws and bills like the ones in Utah and Iowa.
By the way, it makes me happy to see that my hometown alt newspaper's blog is picking up on our posts - so thanks much!
Thanks,
Amie Newman
Managing Editor, RH Reality Check
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Unfortunately, laws like this one proposed in Utah aren't as outrageous as you might think. No, there no laws on the books that criminalize miscarriages in this country. However, the increasing numbers of state feticide laws fashioned from our Unborn Victims of Violence Act (federal) have been used to prosecute, jail, and terrorize pregnant and parenting women. In Iowa, last month, a pregnant woman who was also a mother to two daughters, was arrested in the ER of a local hospital where she had gone b/c she accidentally fell down the stairs and was worried about the well being of her fetus. When she admitted to the nurse that she was feeling uncertain about carrying her pregnancy to term (her husband had recently left her, she was terrified, etc.), the nurse called the doctor over who then called the police - who brought her to jail.
Why?
Because under this "feticide" law (laws that say that anyone who intentionally hurts a pregnant woman causing the death of the fetus can be charged for crimes against the fetus and crimes against the pregnant woman), a person who "intentionally causes the death of her fetus after the end of the second trimester" can be criminally prosecuted. And though some laws specifically state that the woman herself cannot be prosecuted for the crime - its happened. In South Carolina. In Iowa. Around the country. Though she was only in the beginning of her second trimester, this nurse and doctor (and the police) decided that she may have intentionally thrown herself down the stairs to cause "the death of her fetus" AND SHE WAS JAILED for it. There was NO evidence - she came into the ER willingly and happened to admit that she was feeling uncertain about keeping her pregnancy.
Charges were dropped NOT because the law is a heinous piece of anti-woman, handmaids tale legislation but because it was proven that she was in her second trimester and not third.
So, yeah, this Utah law is horrific but I hope no one fools themselves into thinking this is it. The anti-choice movement has made it their mission not to "protect the lives of the unborn" (if they wanted to do that they would: lobby for and support universal access to prenatal care for pregnant women, lobby for and support widespread access to contraception which helps reduce maternal mortality rates worldwide, ensure all women have access to high quality care during childbirth, etc.) but to remain unceasingly vicious in their attempts to block access to legal, safe abortion care through heinous laws and bills like the ones in Utah and Iowa.
By the way, it makes me happy to see that my hometown alt newspaper's blog is picking up on our posts - so thanks much!
Thanks,
Amie Newman
Managing Editor, RH Reality Check
72
@66 - STFU. Something tells me by your post name you would not be the one who would have to bear the stigma of carrying a fetus to term, ostracized by your family, friends and community...in other words, it's a typical male comment. "Just carry it to term, adoption is fine" can be the mantra for men or women but it misses the point - in reality, for many young girls, the simple act of being pregnant is what causes the issues within their families, within their community, whether they keep the child or give it up for adoption.
And condoms DO break, asshat. And sometimes they don't break but yet, they still don't work and someone gets pregnant. STFU.
And condoms DO break, asshat. And sometimes they don't break but yet, they still don't work and someone gets pregnant. STFU.
73
@72
Thanks, blanne. I was going to point that out to the obviously illiterate retard who clearly didn't read my post.
Even if I gave the baby up for adoption, there was no way I could avoid my family for 9 months, so I ruled out that option as well.
I think adoption is great, in theory. Although, I've met several people who lived in foster homes who have told me it was one of the most horrific experiences of their lives. So I suppose it depends on where kids are placed.
Thanks, blanne. I was going to point that out to the obviously illiterate retard who clearly didn't read my post.
Even if I gave the baby up for adoption, there was no way I could avoid my family for 9 months, so I ruled out that option as well.
I think adoption is great, in theory. Although, I've met several people who lived in foster homes who have told me it was one of the most horrific experiences of their lives. So I suppose it depends on where kids are placed.
74
Hey 73 (also 65), I'm glad you don't feel bad anymore. You can only walk by the light you have to see by. I'm sorry some people made you feel ashamed; that was really uncalled-for. Being pregnant when you didn't plan to be is always a life-changer. No matter what you do, there are what-ifs, but you made a choice and moved forward. I'm glad you did what was right for you. (and 66 is beneath your notice---just a mouse turd on the path of life, really)
The Buddha said something like this: You, yourself, as much as anyone in the universe, are deserving of your love and compassion. Take good care of yourself.
The Buddha said something like this: You, yourself, as much as anyone in the universe, are deserving of your love and compassion. Take good care of yourself.
77
@56. That problem is that the language of the bill says "an intentional, knowing, or reckless act of the woman". So, the woman could act recklessly, but not intentionally, and still be charged. If it had said and recklessly, then you might be right. But, it's clear to me, based on reading the bill anyways, that a woman could be charged for acting recklessly if it causes a miscarriage, even if she didn't intend to terminate the pregnancy. It follows that knowing you're pregnant isn't a condition of being charged under this law.
Also troubling is the scenario where a woman spontaneously miscarries -- does someone get to judge whether she did anything "reckless" in the days leading up to the miscarriage? If you go to the ER when you are in the process of miscarrying, will someone be asking you questions about your behavior? Because that's exactly what a woman going through the trauma of a miscarriage needs, of course.
Also troubling is the scenario where a woman spontaneously miscarries -- does someone get to judge whether she did anything "reckless" in the days leading up to the miscarriage? If you go to the ER when you are in the process of miscarrying, will someone be asking you questions about your behavior? Because that's exactly what a woman going through the trauma of a miscarriage needs, of course.
79
74
"You can only walk by the light you have to see by."
Wow.
That's profound.
I wonder how much light "Clever_" had.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew condoms can break.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew her boyfriend's sperm would get her pregnant.
I wonder if "Clever_" had a backup plan.
I wonder if "Clever_" was emotionally, educationally and financially prepared for parenthood.
Sex is a grown-up game with grown-up consequences.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew that (she wasn't some stupid teenager...)
If you depend on mommy and daddy you should be prepared to live by mommy and daddy's rules.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew That?
I wonder if "Clever"'s boyfriend could/would have supported her.
When you partner with someone to create a new human life you would be well advised to make sure they are capable and willing to meet you half way.
If a woman doesn't want to be left holding the bag alone she really shouldn't let some clown ass use her uterus for a playground.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew that?
I wonder why "Clever_" felt guilt and loss.
That's interesting.
People don't feel guilt when they have cancer removed.
They don't feel loss when a ruptured appendix is removed.
They don't feel guilt and loss when they trim their toenails.
Or change their hair color.
Their body...
I know-
it must be the damn Christian's fault.
Is that it?
I wonder whose love and compassion The Buddha would say "Clever"s baby deserves.
After all the 'doing what's best for me' I wonder if there is any love and compassion left over for "Clever"s baby.
Out there all alone in the universe.
"You can only walk by the light you have to see by."
Wow.
That's profound.
I wonder how much light "Clever_" had.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew condoms can break.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew her boyfriend's sperm would get her pregnant.
I wonder if "Clever_" had a backup plan.
I wonder if "Clever_" was emotionally, educationally and financially prepared for parenthood.
Sex is a grown-up game with grown-up consequences.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew that (she wasn't some stupid teenager...)
If you depend on mommy and daddy you should be prepared to live by mommy and daddy's rules.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew That?
I wonder if "Clever"'s boyfriend could/would have supported her.
When you partner with someone to create a new human life you would be well advised to make sure they are capable and willing to meet you half way.
If a woman doesn't want to be left holding the bag alone she really shouldn't let some clown ass use her uterus for a playground.
I wonder if "Clever_" knew that?
I wonder why "Clever_" felt guilt and loss.
That's interesting.
People don't feel guilt when they have cancer removed.
They don't feel loss when a ruptured appendix is removed.
They don't feel guilt and loss when they trim their toenails.
Or change their hair color.
Their body...
I know-
it must be the damn Christian's fault.
Is that it?
I wonder whose love and compassion The Buddha would say "Clever"s baby deserves.
After all the 'doing what's best for me' I wonder if there is any love and compassion left over for "Clever"s baby.
Out there all alone in the universe.
80
I see a potential Something Positive comic out of this one. Oh, you've never seen the comic? Google it. I guarantee that this guy's already thinking of a way to outrage his characters with this one.
81
@19, @45 & @68 Here's a link to a sizeable homebirth study that shows the planned place of birth makes no difference in infant mortality or morbidity.
http://www.washingtonmidwives.org/nether…
There's also a study done more recently (than 2002) here in the U.S. which is smaller, but has the same outcome.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/…
http://www.washingtonmidwives.org/nether…
There's also a study done more recently (than 2002) here in the U.S. which is smaller, but has the same outcome.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/…
82
amazonmidwife I will fight to the death for women to deliver wherever and in whatever manner they choose. If we fail to control our birthing, we have lost everything. This is the fundamental right of all fundamental rights.
Having said that, I don't think the Netherlands study is generalizable to Washington, or to the US. The Netherlands midwives (like the Canadian midwives in the Alberta studies) are nurses, trained in a scientific/medical tradition, working within protocols that clearly set out what types of births are appropriate for a home delivery, with clear protocols for transport. The BJM piece takes those protocols as a starting point, too.
In the Pacific Northwest we have a homebirth movement that is primarily ideological in origin, that decries empiricism and science, and that views transport and referral to hospitals and obstetricians as failure. As might be evident from my posts here and elsewhere, I have a big, big problem with ideology being the driving force in the lives and care of pregnant women.
You do not refer to or respond to the study that I directed you to, the one that shows the newborn death rate in Washington State for homebirths to be TWICE the newborn death rate in hospital births, in spite of the homebirth population being on average a lower-risk population. Why is that?
I am not against homebirths. Not at all. I just am perplexed that local midwives, who reject the protocols in place in Europe and Canada for transport and referral continually refer to the European and Canadian data and claim it as evidence of the safety of their practices.
(Before you and your colleagues flame me, you should know I'm one of those "good OBs" that you like to transport to because I'm collaborative and will cheerfully consult on patients who are experiencing complications. So, be fair, and answer my questions without attacking me, OK?)
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Having said that, I don't think the Netherlands study is generalizable to Washington, or to the US. The Netherlands midwives (like the Canadian midwives in the Alberta studies) are nurses, trained in a scientific/medical tradition, working within protocols that clearly set out what types of births are appropriate for a home delivery, with clear protocols for transport. The BJM piece takes those protocols as a starting point, too.
In the Pacific Northwest we have a homebirth movement that is primarily ideological in origin, that decries empiricism and science, and that views transport and referral to hospitals and obstetricians as failure. As might be evident from my posts here and elsewhere, I have a big, big problem with ideology being the driving force in the lives and care of pregnant women.
You do not refer to or respond to the study that I directed you to, the one that shows the newborn death rate in Washington State for homebirths to be TWICE the newborn death rate in hospital births, in spite of the homebirth population being on average a lower-risk population. Why is that?
I am not against homebirths. Not at all. I just am perplexed that local midwives, who reject the protocols in place in Europe and Canada for transport and referral continually refer to the European and Canadian data and claim it as evidence of the safety of their practices.
(Before you and your colleagues flame me, you should know I'm one of those "good OBs" that you like to transport to because I'm collaborative and will cheerfully consult on patients who are experiencing complications. So, be fair, and answer my questions without attacking me, OK?)
83
"Here's a link to a sizeable homebirth study that shows the planned place of birth makes no difference in infant mortality or morbidity. "
Look out, here come the home birth nazis....
Look out, here come the home birth nazis....
84
@82
The Utah bill does not affect legally obtained abortions; it criminalizes any actions taken by women to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care.
As a health care provider do you think it is appropriate or healthy for women to seek to self induce abortion or miscarriage outside a physcician's care?
The Utah bill does not affect legally obtained abortions; it criminalizes any actions taken by women to induce a miscarriage or abortion outside of a doctor's care.
As a health care provider do you think it is appropriate or healthy for women to seek to self induce abortion or miscarriage outside a physcician's care?
85
The bill is going to the Gov to sign. It is a stupid, poorly written law that oozes paternalism. Anyone who thinks this law is not so bad…read it. The good paternalists of the Utah state government are using pregnancy as a means to make women second class. People who create and support such laws do not deserve to have their rights respected in return. If women go down they should take the men folk down with them. Screw human rights if they only belong to men.
86
Carla12, register and provide a full profile instead of baiting me and Mr Savage and then we MIGHT have a conversation, depending on how sincere I think you are (which is currently not very).
87
curtisp I do love you (and don't even get me started on your avatar)
You are right---this is all about making pregnant women (even potentially pregnant women) second-class.
Who can fail to be outraged?
You are right---this is all about making pregnant women (even potentially pregnant women) second-class.
Who can fail to be outraged?
88
86
It is a simple and relevant question.
The public is poorly served when medical professionals allow personal prejudice and ideology to interfere with the delivery of sound information and health care practice.
It is a simple and relevant question.
The public is poorly served when medical professionals allow personal prejudice and ideology to interfere with the delivery of sound information and health care practice.
89
Defending homebirth makes one a "homebirth nazi"? okayyyy...
attitude devant, no flaming, just some thoughts:
-Yes, it's absurd when people use statistics to back them that don't actually apply to them. And it's careless to attribute a belief or action to an entire group (i.e. "local midwives") when what you're really referring to are individuals.
-I'm in the PNW also and very familiar with the local homebirth movement, and I can assure you that similar things are said by homebirth advocates about obstetrics: that it is primarily ideological in nature, that it *denies* empiricism and science and logic in favor of tradition and myth, and that *it* regards transfer as both failure and proof of the invalidity of homebirth. Of course that is not universally true; my point is that extremist judgment exists in both camps.
Re: the Pang study, I looked for your link to it, did not find it. I'm not aware where the full study is available online; pubmed doesn't seem to have it. What I've read is that the study authors themselves acknowledged serious flaws with the methodology of the study, mainly that they made assumptions about what should be considered "planned" homebirth, and that ACOG neglected to be transparent about this when they published their interpretation of the study. But I would need to see the full study to confirm this.
attitude devant, no flaming, just some thoughts:
-Yes, it's absurd when people use statistics to back them that don't actually apply to them. And it's careless to attribute a belief or action to an entire group (i.e. "local midwives") when what you're really referring to are individuals.
-I'm in the PNW also and very familiar with the local homebirth movement, and I can assure you that similar things are said by homebirth advocates about obstetrics: that it is primarily ideological in nature, that it *denies* empiricism and science and logic in favor of tradition and myth, and that *it* regards transfer as both failure and proof of the invalidity of homebirth. Of course that is not universally true; my point is that extremist judgment exists in both camps.
Re: the Pang study, I looked for your link to it, did not find it. I'm not aware where the full study is available online; pubmed doesn't seem to have it. What I've read is that the study authors themselves acknowledged serious flaws with the methodology of the study, mainly that they made assumptions about what should be considered "planned" homebirth, and that ACOG neglected to be transparent about this when they published their interpretation of the study. But I would need to see the full study to confirm this.
90
#84 - Do read what the law says. It's not hard to find. Any woman who has a miscarriage can become a criminal suspect. So let me ask: As a concerned citizen do you think it is appropriate or healthy for women to have more government imposed paternalism in their private lives and face prison time for having a self induced (intended or accidental) miscarriage during any stage of pregnancy?
91
Oh there you go again, 88, aka Carla12, exposing yourself as the same old stupid troll.
(now where was that "unregistered comments off" button? Ah! Le voila! Au revoir pour toujours, Mlle Carla!)
(now where was that "unregistered comments off" button? Ah! Le voila! Au revoir pour toujours, Mlle Carla!)
92
Arrgh. The people who blithely assume adoption is the proper end for an unwanted pregnancy chafe my chaps. Pregnancy is dangerous, life, and body changing in and of itself. Abortion is simply physically the safer choice for any woman. I've had three kids, and nearly died with one of the births, it still happens here in the US, really, honestly.
Plus, most people who have abortions in the third trimester? The babies are going to either die or live in pain. It can be a very loving choice, a painful one for parents who really wanted the child.
Next, before I had my kids I had many miscarriages at between 4-9 weeks (and yes, if you desperately want a baby, you can indeed find out even before four weeks). If I had been afraid that I might have to spend my life in jail because of those miscarriages, then I might never have gotten the medical care I needed to find out why they were happening and fix it. Who would dare go to the doctor and confess about having a miscarriage. Plus, dammit, losing a baby hurts, it grieves you to your bones when you want that baby. I cannot imagine being treated with suspicion or interviewed as a suspect at that already painful point.
Finally, feeling guilt for something that shouldn't make us feel guilty is a very human trait. Survivior guilt may be the most obvious, but people feel guilty for things as trivial as eating cookies. People are also often made to feel guilty about things that are innocent. Think of the churches who feel dancing is sinful. When one of their followers breaks free, I bet they feel some guilt for dancing the first time they do it.
Plus, most people who have abortions in the third trimester? The babies are going to either die or live in pain. It can be a very loving choice, a painful one for parents who really wanted the child.
Next, before I had my kids I had many miscarriages at between 4-9 weeks (and yes, if you desperately want a baby, you can indeed find out even before four weeks). If I had been afraid that I might have to spend my life in jail because of those miscarriages, then I might never have gotten the medical care I needed to find out why they were happening and fix it. Who would dare go to the doctor and confess about having a miscarriage. Plus, dammit, losing a baby hurts, it grieves you to your bones when you want that baby. I cannot imagine being treated with suspicion or interviewed as a suspect at that already painful point.
Finally, feeling guilt for something that shouldn't make us feel guilty is a very human trait. Survivior guilt may be the most obvious, but people feel guilty for things as trivial as eating cookies. People are also often made to feel guilty about things that are innocent. Think of the churches who feel dancing is sinful. When one of their followers breaks free, I bet they feel some guilt for dancing the first time they do it.
93
#87 - (and don't even get me started on your avatar)
What! Is it the boots? You don't like the boots? They are THE staple of my wardrobe.
What! Is it the boots? You don't like the boots? They are THE staple of my wardrobe.
94
89, if you want to read the study, go to the ACOG website and pay the nominal fee they charge for viewing it (what I provided was NOT a hyperlink, but the citation), and then we can have a conversation. I actually know one of the editors who reviewed the article for the journal. He, like me, is collaborative with homebirth midwives and he was appalled by the findings. You can't really blame the findings on methodology, btw, because the study was a review of birth and death certificates in Washington State.
The phrase "local" was to differentiate from the Europeans that amazonmidwife cited.
The phrase "local" was to differentiate from the Europeans that amazonmidwife cited.
97
@96: Yeah, and refusing to stick to one name and instead lurking in total anonymity is the epitome of courage. So sorry, but you're just a no-talent ass clown.
99
@79
Your argument is absolutely asinine.
You are basically saying that people who cannot afford to have babies shouldn't be having sex because it's for "grown-ups".
Well, I have five brothers and sisters, and was raised DIRT POOR because of it...because of my mom's "Christian values". She didn't have her first child until she was married and in her 30's. Are you saying she was allowed to have sex at all?
What about all the other straight people who have kids who can't afford them, but are well into their adult years?
All I, or anyone, CAN do is take the best precautions they know how to. Even the most effective birth control methods, such as Depo Provera, are only 99.9 percent effective. Not 100 percent. People still get pregnant by those methods. And they shouldn't feel bad about it because they did the best that they could to avoid unwanted pregnancies, just as I did.
Some people shouldn't have children, and I was honest enough with myself to realize that at that point in my life, I was one of those people.
But the thing about your post that sickens me is the sex-negative elitism that drips from every word of it. It is as if you are implying that having babies is the only reason anyone should have sex at all because, even with all proper precautions, you should EXPECT to get pregnant anyway. And how dare an 18 year old WOMAN take responsibility for her reproductive health... Tsk tsk.
Furthermore, I didn't live with my parents or rely on them financially, and still don't. But I think that regardless of how old people are, they STILL don't want to be shunned by their family over something that occurred when they were 18.
@ 74 Thank you very much. Buddha usually had something useful to say for nearly any situation. Which is why he was epic. :)
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Your argument is absolutely asinine.
You are basically saying that people who cannot afford to have babies shouldn't be having sex because it's for "grown-ups".
Well, I have five brothers and sisters, and was raised DIRT POOR because of it...because of my mom's "Christian values". She didn't have her first child until she was married and in her 30's. Are you saying she was allowed to have sex at all?
What about all the other straight people who have kids who can't afford them, but are well into their adult years?
All I, or anyone, CAN do is take the best precautions they know how to. Even the most effective birth control methods, such as Depo Provera, are only 99.9 percent effective. Not 100 percent. People still get pregnant by those methods. And they shouldn't feel bad about it because they did the best that they could to avoid unwanted pregnancies, just as I did.
Some people shouldn't have children, and I was honest enough with myself to realize that at that point in my life, I was one of those people.
But the thing about your post that sickens me is the sex-negative elitism that drips from every word of it. It is as if you are implying that having babies is the only reason anyone should have sex at all because, even with all proper precautions, you should EXPECT to get pregnant anyway. And how dare an 18 year old WOMAN take responsibility for her reproductive health... Tsk tsk.
Furthermore, I didn't live with my parents or rely on them financially, and still don't. But I think that regardless of how old people are, they STILL don't want to be shunned by their family over something that occurred when they were 18.
@ 74 Thank you very much. Buddha usually had something useful to say for nearly any situation. Which is why he was epic. :)
100
Face it, without abortion could you imagine how many poor people we'd have to deal with? I'd rather poor people abort their spawn than dump them on us to pay.
How about free, government abortion clinics in every trailer park, barrio and 'hood? Fed-A-Bort. Offer free rims for every future welfare sponge they suck out and toss in the trash can? I'd pay for that, cheaper than 20 years of welfare and court costs.
How about free, government abortion clinics in every trailer park, barrio and 'hood? Fed-A-Bort. Offer free rims for every future welfare sponge they suck out and toss in the trash can? I'd pay for that, cheaper than 20 years of welfare and court costs.
101
#92 - Wow, so sorry about what you had to go through. Thank you for posting. Some people need to hear about these situations to really understand that if the pending Utah law is signed by the Gov women in similar situations could be subject to criminal investigations...with their bodies as the main evidence. Anyone who would support such a law is ethically and morally bankrupt.
103
This article does make me wonder if there's been a recent surge of miscarriages caused due to self-inflicted violence in Utah. Is this all due to the single incident with the 17-year-old mother? Was she forced to carry for seven months against her will? Very few women wittingly carry a pregnancy to seven months without intent to commit to the cause, except in cases of severe birth defects discovered late in the pregnancy or, as I suspect in this case, the mother was forced by parents or authorities to carry to term. How often does this happen in Utah, Looney Left? Do you know, Looney Left? How about you, Carla12
This can go one of two ways, either we'll see a string of zero-tolerance style arrests and/or convictions (like the kid jailed for eating a french fry on a metro, or the kid busted and expelled for carrying a butter knife with his lunch to school) that will lead to a ton of bad press, or the police and the courts will (as per the Bloody Code) refuse to enforce this law since jail-time is not exactly the best place for a grieving mother, or for a mother to finish carrying to term, once the fetus was declared intact, and then to raise an infant.
m2km you demonstrate perfectly the attitude we see more and more from the abortion access obstruction front, firstly that American adults are supposed to be disinterested in sex except specifically for the purpose of procreation, and secondly that a woman with an unwanted pregnancy is presumed an irresponsible slut for having gotten pregnant in the first place. Such an attitude disregards allowance for contraception failures and less-than-consensual sex.
In contrast to this attitude, it has been well established that American adults have a right to non-procreative sexual activity with consensual partners, and that it is healthy to do so regularly. Indeed, we cannot expect perfect contraceptives, but we could expect better ones if the obstructionists would bother to stop infringing on access to them within this country, and between that and proper sex education, we could certainly reduce the number of abortions to near zero.
And don't forget that obstruction of abortion access, whether through legislation or through violent or semi-violent means not only perpetuates inequality between the sexes, but also defines women as property of the state (rather than themselves, or traditionally, their fathers and husbands).
More...
This can go one of two ways, either we'll see a string of zero-tolerance style arrests and/or convictions (like the kid jailed for eating a french fry on a metro, or the kid busted and expelled for carrying a butter knife with his lunch to school) that will lead to a ton of bad press, or the police and the courts will (as per the Bloody Code) refuse to enforce this law since jail-time is not exactly the best place for a grieving mother, or for a mother to finish carrying to term, once the fetus was declared intact, and then to raise an infant.
m2km you demonstrate perfectly the attitude we see more and more from the abortion access obstruction front, firstly that American adults are supposed to be disinterested in sex except specifically for the purpose of procreation, and secondly that a woman with an unwanted pregnancy is presumed an irresponsible slut for having gotten pregnant in the first place. Such an attitude disregards allowance for contraception failures and less-than-consensual sex.
In contrast to this attitude, it has been well established that American adults have a right to non-procreative sexual activity with consensual partners, and that it is healthy to do so regularly. Indeed, we cannot expect perfect contraceptives, but we could expect better ones if the obstructionists would bother to stop infringing on access to them within this country, and between that and proper sex education, we could certainly reduce the number of abortions to near zero.
And don't forget that obstruction of abortion access, whether through legislation or through violent or semi-violent means not only perpetuates inequality between the sexes, but also defines women as property of the state (rather than themselves, or traditionally, their fathers and husbands).
104
Your link didn't work, Attitude Devant, but if you were talking about the one where children in Glasgow think women sometimes deserve beatings, yeah, I saw it. While I figure it's a gap in education and socializing, it's still nauseating.
Regarding the justification of rape, I think Brock Samson from The Venture Brothers set an excellent example of proper cold-shower etiquette when we're first introduced to Molotov Cocktease in The Incredible Mr. Brisby. The fact is, no matter how dastardly a woman is, she doesn't deserve rape‡, and a mere tease deserves no more than to be discarded to her own devices.‡‡
‡ In extreme circumstances beyond law and civility, such as someone who tortured my family to death, burned down my village and was then acquitted on a technicality (blowing the judge), I'd be tempted to kill her. I might even want to tie her to an anthill or wall her up in a tomb and let her die of starvation, but by then I'd have no interest in fucking her, consensually or otherwise.
‡‡ Teases who are actually interested in relating will, in my experience, resume contact at a later date with a more straightforward approach. Walking away works.
Regarding the justification of rape, I think Brock Samson from The Venture Brothers set an excellent example of proper cold-shower etiquette when we're first introduced to Molotov Cocktease in The Incredible Mr. Brisby. The fact is, no matter how dastardly a woman is, she doesn't deserve rape‡, and a mere tease deserves no more than to be discarded to her own devices.‡‡
‡ In extreme circumstances beyond law and civility, such as someone who tortured my family to death, burned down my village and was then acquitted on a technicality (blowing the judge), I'd be tempted to kill her. I might even want to tie her to an anthill or wall her up in a tomb and let her die of starvation, but by then I'd have no interest in fucking her, consensually or otherwise.
‡‡ Teases who are actually interested in relating will, in my experience, resume contact at a later date with a more straightforward approach. Walking away works.
105
Oh, and while I fully accept that it's rather unChristlike of me to consider violence as justifiable, (and at risk of a Godwinian faux pas), I'm pretty sure some members of the Third Reich deserved to be on the receiving end of deliberate force. So at least a few folk in the last century deserved getting their butts kicked.
There's loads of theory on just cause to go to war which continues to be studied in Annapolis; at least within our military forces (less so, certain recent administrations), we prefer if our soldiers understand what we are trying to do when we authorize the use of force.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone is ever deserving of (nonconsensual) rape, including (as has been known to happen, on both sides, in recent theaters) POWs, whether unlawful combatants or otherwise.
There's loads of theory on just cause to go to war which continues to be studied in Annapolis; at least within our military forces (less so, certain recent administrations), we prefer if our soldiers understand what we are trying to do when we authorize the use of force.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone is ever deserving of (nonconsensual) rape, including (as has been known to happen, on both sides, in recent theaters) POWs, whether unlawful combatants or otherwise.
106
How about passing a law that makes it illegal for men to ejaculate during sex? You know, it could lead to pregnancy, and to miscarriage...
107
@37 I know this response is late, but yes, I am perfectly comfortable waiting for the courts to strike down poorly written and unenforceable legislation written by dickheads. That is the entire purpose of the courts (separation of powers, checks and balances and all that), and that is why I laugh when pinheads such as yourself go spastic over this nonsense.
If any victim of an accidentally induced abortion is ever successfully prosecuted in Utah I buy a round for everyone at the next SLOG happy hour.
If any victim of an accidentally induced abortion is ever successfully prosecuted in Utah I buy a round for everyone at the next SLOG happy hour.
108
99
Sex with a boy makes babies.
Did you know that?
Killing the baby you and your boyfriend made is not "taking responsibility".
There are lots of "100% safe foolproof" ways to avoid pregnancy.
Dan can tell you all about them.
How exactly do you, the "18 year old WOMAN tak(ing) responsibility for her reproductive health... " differ from the "stupid teenager" you claim you weren't?
How, exactly, did your outcome differ?
How is your baby any better off than the baby of "some stupid teenager"?
No "sex-negative elitism" involved.
Millions and millions of people have lots and lots of sex without making babies they are not prepared to care for.
They are "taking responsibility".
Look into it.
When you're finished patting yourself on the back.
Our society has grossly dumbed down what constitutes "taking responsibility" but I suspect that deep down you know the truth.
Sex with a boy makes babies.
Did you know that?
Killing the baby you and your boyfriend made is not "taking responsibility".
There are lots of "100% safe foolproof" ways to avoid pregnancy.
Dan can tell you all about them.
How exactly do you, the "18 year old WOMAN tak(ing) responsibility for her reproductive health... " differ from the "stupid teenager" you claim you weren't?
How, exactly, did your outcome differ?
How is your baby any better off than the baby of "some stupid teenager"?
No "sex-negative elitism" involved.
Millions and millions of people have lots and lots of sex without making babies they are not prepared to care for.
They are "taking responsibility".
Look into it.
When you're finished patting yourself on the back.
Our society has grossly dumbed down what constitutes "taking responsibility" but I suspect that deep down you know the truth.
109
The fact that a woman went to the emergency room for help and was incarcerated is deeply troubling, and I have no doubt that it will prevent people from seeking care and lead to more loss of life all around. Someone above mentioned that this is not an isolated event, but a trend involving similar laws in several states. I would like to go further with that and say that the practice of using health care as a means for society to incarcerate or otherwise rid herself of any "undesirables" is not new. Look at what happens to the mentally ill. People are told that if they have any sort of thought or feeling that makes them want to harm themselves or someone else, they should seek help. What happens when they seek help? Usually, they are either given drugs which have VERY dangerous side effects, or they are imprisoned (hospital psych units are typically locked, let's not forget) or both. Ironically, some people who come in because they are having self-destructive feelings cannot get released from the hospital (where they are being held against their will remember) unless they take drugs which will almost certainly damage their bodies. I by no means wish to steal the spotlight from the issue of reproductive freedoms at hand. I just thought while we're on the subject, we might consider that we live in a world where a single thought can deprive you of freedom indefinitely. If you are interested in what can happen to the mentally ill as well as what is most regrettably happening to women in general, you can check out my blog at http://psychsystem.blogspot.com.
110
107- I sincerely hope you are correct and that in this instance I am being a spastic pinhead.
108- As a registered nurse, I feel the need to say that NO method of contraception is really 100% foolproof or safe and whoever you quoted that from has been remiss. Freak things happen. For instance, health care providers FREQUENTLY neglect to mention that the use of certain medications can render birth control less effective. Get Strep throat, and suddenly you're pregnant.
As an interesting side bar, certain illnesses such as CMV or toxoplasmosis pose a great risk to developing fetuses. You can get at least one of these illness ( I don't recall about CMV) from changing cat litter. Is changing cat litter now going to be illegal for women?
108- As a registered nurse, I feel the need to say that NO method of contraception is really 100% foolproof or safe and whoever you quoted that from has been remiss. Freak things happen. For instance, health care providers FREQUENTLY neglect to mention that the use of certain medications can render birth control less effective. Get Strep throat, and suddenly you're pregnant.
As an interesting side bar, certain illnesses such as CMV or toxoplasmosis pose a great risk to developing fetuses. You can get at least one of these illness ( I don't recall about CMV) from changing cat litter. Is changing cat litter now going to be illegal for women?
111
Carla12 - again, the language of the law is "intentional, knowing, or reckless." The law does not care whether you intended to induce a miscarriage or whether you did something "reckless" that accidentally induced the miscarriage. Or, for that matter, whether you happened to spontaneously miscarry right around the time that you did something "reckless".
As to your original question, obviously it is not healthy for a woman to seek an to induce an abortion outside of a physician's care. But should that action be criminalized in the instance where a legal abortion could be obtained? And should the penalty be up to life in prison? So, under this law, a woman who was 8 weeks pregnant who could obtain an abortion legally, who decided to try to induce one on her own, could be arrested and sentenced to up to life in prison. Is that a healthy choice? No. But, I think it's crazy that she could be charged with criminal homicide.
Note: I think the third trimester is a different story.
As to your original question, obviously it is not healthy for a woman to seek an to induce an abortion outside of a physician's care. But should that action be criminalized in the instance where a legal abortion could be obtained? And should the penalty be up to life in prison? So, under this law, a woman who was 8 weeks pregnant who could obtain an abortion legally, who decided to try to induce one on her own, could be arrested and sentenced to up to life in prison. Is that a healthy choice? No. But, I think it's crazy that she could be charged with criminal homicide.
Note: I think the third trimester is a different story.
113
112- I give you that any of these activities astronomically reduces the risk of pregnancy, however any time semen is out there, if you touch it and don't get it off you immediately, it can end up in your vagina, and you can get pregnant. It sounds a bit ridiculous, I know, but it has happened, particularly in the case of mutual masturbation where hands are involved. You get an itch, you go to scratch it, like I said, freak things happen. No matter what you're doing (except probably in the case of gay sex) you need to exercise some measure of caution if you're trying to avoid pregnancy, and even if you do, sometimes it's just not your fucking day. All this is admittedly kind of beside the point, however. The point, for me at least, is that no matter how I get pregnant my ability to lead a normal life (including climbing stairs, picking my kid up at school where i might get a communicable disease, and changing my cat litter) without fear of prosecution should not be forfeit because of it.
114
97
Ass Clown....
That's very original.
May I use it?
Will your mom mind if I borrow her pet name for you?
Ass Clown....
That's very original.
May I use it?
Will your mom mind if I borrow her pet name for you?
115
Please do not lump all Utahns into the "stupid" category. Sometimes lawmakers with too much time on their hands and not enough good sense get talked into trying to pass ridiculous laws.
That doesn't mean all Utahns agree. In fact, we get just as appalled as the rest of the nation!
That doesn't mean all Utahns agree. In fact, we get just as appalled as the rest of the nation!
117
@114: Yo Troll, I'm happy for you, I'mma let you finish, but that was one of the worst comebacks of all time. One of the worst comebacks of all time!
118
#107 Most people here hope you are correct but Bush made a lot of really crappy appointments to our federal courts. The Robert's court has nothing on some of the dick head lead regional courts.
119
#108 Please dear - Spare us the sanctimonious crap. Reasonable people know that embryos are not babies. Now do us all a favor and go sign yourself up for a snowflake adoption.
120
@attitudedeviant The study you cited used ALL out of hospital births in Washington, including accidental births, car births, teenage denial bathroom births, etc. as well as planned homebirths. It's a flawed study, poorly designed and retrospective. The studies I cited were both prospective and only used planned homebirths, thus the difference in mortality/morbidity.
I think that was the only question you had, and am between appts., but I'll check back later to make sure. I'm all for good dialogue.
I think that was the only question you had, and am between appts., but I'll check back later to make sure. I'm all for good dialogue.
121
I think 108 just prefers that folks stick to putting penises in rectums and wiggling them around in excrement. It's okay to have a fetish, dude, just don't expect everyone else to share it.
122
As if miscariages are are not hard enough on a women- geting a notice saying you have to testify that you did not accidently kill your child. What if you dont give the right answer you still are put in jail?
125
As a child-less mother (one who has lost all of my pregnancies) i would like to invite Utah lawmakers into my home on either September 24th, or February 21st. On September 24, 1987 at 6:00pm i lost my son at 19 weeks. I was going through a divorce at the time as well, and the "one-two-punch" of it all nearly cost me my sanity, if not my life. There is not a September 24th or February 21st (Taylor's due date) that goes by that I do not mourn the loss of what would now be my 22 year old son. Last September 24th was the FIRST time since 1987 that I have worked on that date. If this doesn't spell out to them how incredibly heartless this law would be then I don't know what would.
126
Wow, Allegedly, your methods of debate have so improved! I used to imagine you believed you were the abandoned nine-year-old charge of Dan's, but I see you've all grown up, now.
Are you taking a class?
Are you taking a class?
128
Has anyone considered, while condemning the 17 yr old, that maybe the only kind of "losing a baby" she'd ever heard of was of women losing their babies after a beating from the old man?
Yes, there is that much ignorance in the world, and the idea that she thought being hit in the stomach could end the pregnancy is a very very sad statement. I've seen ignorant young women try punching themselves in the stomach. Coat hangers come to mind from the past; my aunt almost died from a slippery elm suppository that was supposed to terminate the pregnancy. She nearly bled to death for lack of knowledge and medical care.
I had to cross state lines and picket lines to get a legal and safe termination. I do not regret it, and I did not grieve it. I would have regretted being a poor, underemployed single mother with a fertility that didn't understand that the Pill was supposed to be near fool-proof.
Yes, there is that much ignorance in the world, and the idea that she thought being hit in the stomach could end the pregnancy is a very very sad statement. I've seen ignorant young women try punching themselves in the stomach. Coat hangers come to mind from the past; my aunt almost died from a slippery elm suppository that was supposed to terminate the pregnancy. She nearly bled to death for lack of knowledge and medical care.
I had to cross state lines and picket lines to get a legal and safe termination. I do not regret it, and I did not grieve it. I would have regretted being a poor, underemployed single mother with a fertility that didn't understand that the Pill was supposed to be near fool-proof.
129
@125, I'm sorry at 19 weeks, that was not your 'son', that was a fetus, a blob of tissue, easily removed by choice.
130
"I do not regret it, and I did not grieve it"
Can I sell you one of my patented "I had an Abortion!" t-shirts then? You sound like an ideal customer, no second guessing for you, just squat on a cock then vacuum the sucker out.
Only $19.99 plus shipping.
Can I sell you one of my patented "I had an Abortion!" t-shirts then? You sound like an ideal customer, no second guessing for you, just squat on a cock then vacuum the sucker out.
Only $19.99 plus shipping.
131
I love the "don't have sex unless you're ready to have a child" trolls. Ban abortion and abstinence until marriage (and carry every child after). We all know how that works out.
132
Hey #130 - How about a T-Shirt that says "I had an anal cyst removed". Most people don't regret making that decision, nor grieve its removal. Now if you are male do the ladies a favor and make sure no one squats on yours, if the opportunity ever arises.
134
Fuck Utah and its brain-dead legislators and the population that elects them. Nuke Utah now. It is a disgusting place filled with control freaks who promote forced birth. Bah.
135
I'll never understand the mindset behind this sort of legislature. The way to drastically reduce abortions is to reduce the NEED for abortions - ie, reduce unwanted pregnancies - and human nature being what it is, unwanted pregnancies will only be reduced in number by widespread, thorough and neutral sex ed and widespread easy and cheap available forms of anticonception.
The Netherlands has one of the lowest rates of teenage pregnancies in the world, and one of the lowest rates of abortion too. It has a very good and thorough system of sexual and relationship education. Are we seeing a connection here?
Ah! But then the forced-birthers wouldn't be able to huff and puff about those horrible sluts that should just put up with their 'punishment' (child) for having sex. It's not about preventing the unwanted pregnancies... it's about controlling the lives of the women. *sigh*
The Netherlands has one of the lowest rates of teenage pregnancies in the world, and one of the lowest rates of abortion too. It has a very good and thorough system of sexual and relationship education. Are we seeing a connection here?
Ah! But then the forced-birthers wouldn't be able to huff and puff about those horrible sluts that should just put up with their 'punishment' (child) for having sex. It's not about preventing the unwanted pregnancies... it's about controlling the lives of the women. *sigh*
137
See, when Ann Boleyn miscarried, everyone knew it was witchcraft. If they had this figured out WAY BACK THEN, Dan, why is it so confusing to you? Geesh.
138
127 and 129, STFU. If you haven't lost a much-desired pregnancy you have no idea what a woman goes through: mourning for which there are no publicly celebrated rituals, isolation, the loss of the sense that your body works in a fundamental way. Many of us never forget our due dates, just like 125 has not. You don't give a shit about real human beings, do you?
140
138
If Morningafter Mom came to you with $300 and said "my husband's leaving and I'm an emotional wreck and can't handle a pregnancy and baby..." would you have killed Taylor for her?
If Morningafter Mom came to you with $300 and said "my husband's leaving and I'm an emotional wreck and can't handle a pregnancy and baby..." would you have killed Taylor for her?
141
138
So a broken condom produces
an inhuman parasitic clump of cells
to be sucked out without remorse
but
a 'much-desired pregnancy' produces
a cherished child
to be morned to the grave?
Can a sonogram pick up the difference?
So a broken condom produces
an inhuman parasitic clump of cells
to be sucked out without remorse
but
a 'much-desired pregnancy' produces
a cherished child
to be morned to the grave?
Can a sonogram pick up the difference?
142
@139/141-What Mourning Mom (@125) lost was a potential child. She had dreams and hopes and was in love with that clump of cells.
What KiPttih (@128) gave up was a potential child. She didn't want to have a child at that time, and her hopes and dreams were in other areas of her life.
MM's loss can be real without saying anything about the legitimacy of KiPttih's choice. I'm not sure how that isn't obvious.
What KiPttih (@128) gave up was a potential child. She didn't want to have a child at that time, and her hopes and dreams were in other areas of her life.
MM's loss can be real without saying anything about the legitimacy of KiPttih's choice. I'm not sure how that isn't obvious.
143
Allegedly, @139-141, the contradiction exists only in your reptilian pea-sized brain. And once again, you underscore my point, made in 138. When a living breathing real live person is in front of you, as at 125, you can't even summon enough humanity or compassion to stop the snark. Nope, you just jab at her more.
Sicko.
Sicko.
146
142
MM lost her son Taylor.
He was 19 weeks old.
In America some other woman in MM's position could pay someone like Attitude Deviant to kill her 19 week old son.
It happens every day.
Taylor and all other 19 week olds' humanity isn't dependent on the opinion of others about them.
It exists.
Ask MM.
Their right to live IS at the mercy of others.
And that is wrong.
MM lost her son Taylor.
He was 19 weeks old.
In America some other woman in MM's position could pay someone like Attitude Deviant to kill her 19 week old son.
It happens every day.
Taylor and all other 19 week olds' humanity isn't dependent on the opinion of others about them.
It exists.
Ask MM.
Their right to live IS at the mercy of others.
And that is wrong.
148
@125
I am sorry for your loss.
I have experienced similar loss.
I am sorry for @127.
That was bait.
I am sorry for the posts that followed because I suspect you disagree with me and they surely bring you no comfort.
But I believe each and every one of the 820,000 babies that will be aborted this year deserve the love Taylor and my daughter received. And protection and support. And if they can't get it from their mothers and fathers and physicians I believe Society should try to protect them.
They say time heals a broken heart.
I do not know.
I am sorry for your loss.
I have experienced similar loss.
I am sorry for @127.
That was bait.
I am sorry for the posts that followed because I suspect you disagree with me and they surely bring you no comfort.
But I believe each and every one of the 820,000 babies that will be aborted this year deserve the love Taylor and my daughter received. And protection and support. And if they can't get it from their mothers and fathers and physicians I believe Society should try to protect them.
They say time heals a broken heart.
I do not know.
149
Goodness gracious do you even see the woman, a fellow human? Or do you only see the uterus?
You seem to only see the uterus. You mock the grief of one woman and vilify the legitimate choice of another, without walking in either's shoes.
Sad.
You seem to only see the uterus. You mock the grief of one woman and vilify the legitimate choice of another, without walking in either's shoes.
Sad.
151
148, I am sorry for your loss. My experience is that time does not always heal. This is sad for me, but as you know, it is true.
Please hear me: the patients of mine who aborted at 19 weeks were:
suffering from uterine infections and going to die if I did not abort them, or bleeding heavily from placental abruptions and needing transfusions, newly-diagnosed cancer patients who couldn't get their chemo without ending their pregnancy, carrying babies with birth defects that were not compatible with life and not reparable by surgery. They view these as losses, just as you view Rachael's death as a loss. I'm sorry, but most of Dr. Tiller's patient were just the same.
I presume there are women who abort second-trimester pregnancies electively. I do not know any cases personally. I presume they don't make the decision lightly because it's a more complicated and difficult (for doctor and patient) procedure. I believe that if they are willing to do that, they must have some compelling reason that I do not know. I cannot condemn them.
We never know what another person's world is like, not really. Life is hard. The best we can do is love one another, and take care of one another.
I am so sorry. So very sorry.
Please hear me: the patients of mine who aborted at 19 weeks were:
suffering from uterine infections and going to die if I did not abort them, or bleeding heavily from placental abruptions and needing transfusions, newly-diagnosed cancer patients who couldn't get their chemo without ending their pregnancy, carrying babies with birth defects that were not compatible with life and not reparable by surgery. They view these as losses, just as you view Rachael's death as a loss. I'm sorry, but most of Dr. Tiller's patient were just the same.
I presume there are women who abort second-trimester pregnancies electively. I do not know any cases personally. I presume they don't make the decision lightly because it's a more complicated and difficult (for doctor and patient) procedure. I believe that if they are willing to do that, they must have some compelling reason that I do not know. I cannot condemn them.
We never know what another person's world is like, not really. Life is hard. The best we can do is love one another, and take care of one another.
I am so sorry. So very sorry.
152
Rachael's mom or dad, I can only imagine the pain you feel. It's not unusual for my patients who have lost a child, or who can't get pregnant, to be really angry with women around them who (they think) don't value their pregnancies enough, or who take (what looks like to them) a casual attitude toward sex and pregnancy. It's as if they believe that if they could get these other people to behave the right way (right to them), they might be able to control or undo the terrible thing that happened.
Only it doesn't work that way. It's true. Nothing changes. It's not as if stopping an abortion brings Rachael back. I'm sorry, but it's so.
I know that all your rage, and grief, and pain has been channelled into fighting abortions. Has it helped anyone? Has it helped you?
You should know I don't like doing abortions. No provider I know does. But someone HAS to do them. Otherwise stupid desperate 17 year-olds pay some guy to beat them up, or cancer patients can't start chemo, or whatever. Every patient has a story, a story that makes her agonize over her choices. Nobody thinks it's fun. Often, those stories aren't immediately evident to you and me. But I am not here to judge these women---the only thing I am here to judge is the firmness of their decisions and the stage of their pregnancies.
I hope you can find peace. I know you will never forget your daughter.
Only it doesn't work that way. It's true. Nothing changes. It's not as if stopping an abortion brings Rachael back. I'm sorry, but it's so.
I know that all your rage, and grief, and pain has been channelled into fighting abortions. Has it helped anyone? Has it helped you?
You should know I don't like doing abortions. No provider I know does. But someone HAS to do them. Otherwise stupid desperate 17 year-olds pay some guy to beat them up, or cancer patients can't start chemo, or whatever. Every patient has a story, a story that makes her agonize over her choices. Nobody thinks it's fun. Often, those stories aren't immediately evident to you and me. But I am not here to judge these women---the only thing I am here to judge is the firmness of their decisions and the stage of their pregnancies.
I hope you can find peace. I know you will never forget your daughter.
153
It is ridiculous "legislation" like this that makes me so happy that I'm queer. It also makes me intensely irritated. I do not know a single woman who was happy to experience a miscarriage or an abortion, but it's life and shit happens. Until the clump of cells, fetus, or baby can live and breath independently of the women who it is incubating in, it is part of her body and she can do whatever the hell she wants with it. And, in a perfect world, she will, with no ridiculous consequences pushed on her by society.
154
The law needs a few small adjustments to become a wonderful thing for the fine state of Utah:
Married Mormon or fundamentalist women who do not become pregnant once per year are obviously aborting something, so they will be convicted. This prevents them from using clever, wicked means to have stealth miscarriages. No more lib-tard light sentences, hang them all. Women who are not Mormon or fundamentalist were not intended by God to reproduce, so the law does not apply to them.
All set, solves various problems at once.
Married Mormon or fundamentalist women who do not become pregnant once per year are obviously aborting something, so they will be convicted. This prevents them from using clever, wicked means to have stealth miscarriages. No more lib-tard light sentences, hang them all. Women who are not Mormon or fundamentalist were not intended by God to reproduce, so the law does not apply to them.
All set, solves various problems at once.
155
Dear #130...
Yes, I "squatted on a cock".. it was my husband's.
I did it again and again, and I LIKED it. He liked it too.
He wasn't ready for his child either.
Paint me a scarlet letter "A" for Aborted, I've worn out your T-shirt.
You should be so lucky as to know that kind of love.
Yes, I "squatted on a cock".. it was my husband's.
I did it again and again, and I LIKED it. He liked it too.
He wasn't ready for his child either.
Paint me a scarlet letter "A" for Aborted, I've worn out your T-shirt.
You should be so lucky as to know that kind of love.
156
That is truly the most asinine idea that I have ever heard of! Punishing women for having miscarriages is adding insult to injury! As someone who had suffered a miscarriage in the past, I was terribly grief stricken and thought I would never heal from it. (Fortunately, I went on to a successful pregnancy!)
This sounds like a backward, anti-woman campaign to me.
This sounds like a backward, anti-woman campaign to me.
157
As the article pointed out, the surveillance required to actually make sure that women don't "recklessly" miscarry would be utterly ridiculous. Pregnancy is a private matter between woman, doctor(s) and family. With this law's passage, the state would be involved as well. Big brother watching our uteruses to ensure we (and we, of course, would primarily refer to rural, younger girls who can't afford abortions or get to a clinic) carry the child to term. This bill brings to mind disturbing visions of women being required to sign their names for a pregnancy test. The bill never indicates how they will possibly enforce this. Usually, when a girl or woman wants to end her pregnancy, she does not let other people know that she is pregnant. Now doctors will have to report to the state... if you end up in the ER for something completely unrelated, they test your blood, determine you are pregnant, you now have only two choices: stay pregnant or get a clinical abortion. You cannot research any other ways to end pregnancies that might be less traumatic than a clinical abortion. Even if you feel more comfortable inducing miscarriage with herbs or massages TOUGH LUCK. The state has its eye on you.
158
Yea, Stuck in Utah - but once your actually born you're on your own. No healthcare, screw education, and be sure to smoke, drive your car, and buy fast food packages.
159
Whether it is abortion or not, I think it is all a matter of choice. Sadly the freedom to choose is often abused.
Karen
my blog: make money at home
Karen
my blog: make money at home
160
I think that this is pretty unfair. Legislators should sit down and talk about this for a long time.
Frank Palmer
Wemaster at http://bodybuildinguniversity.com
Frank Palmer
Wemaster at http://bodybuildinguniversity.com
161
You actually are kidding me? Find me a woman who is thankful for a miscarriage, and doesn't feel the tiniest bit upset, and believes that she is 'murdering a baby' and that is a good thing - then maybe we can have a minor discussion about this. It is completely uncalled for, unjust and frankly, pretty crazy. Whatever your thoughts on abortion you can not tell me that punishing a woman for having a miscarriage is moral.
162
At such a time of grief, when a woman naturally feels she may have done something wrong, when she feels her body has let her down, to have the added stress of wondering if someone is going to bring charges against her is unbelieveable!
163
"Whatever your thoughts on abortion you can not tell me that punishing a woman for having a miscarriage is moral."
Totally agree, at such a time of grief it doesn't bear thinking about that you might be brought up on charges...
Totally agree, at such a time of grief it doesn't bear thinking about that you might be brought up on charges...
164
I have miscarried 3 times in the last 3 years, one was cause of ovarian cysts the other was cause the baby just didn't take, and the 3rd was cause i wasn't paying attention and i tripped over the dog and fell. so i guess if i lived in Utah i would be facing 3 life sentences... So if they are accidents how should a woman be blamed for that, it doesn't mean shes neglectful, it just means that shes clumsy and that she might fall down a lot. Let the women be, its no ones choice but the woman to get an abortion and tell whom she may about it, and its no ones business if she miscarrys, if she wants to tell her Doc or her best friend about it so be it their business.
Utah take your nose and shove it up your ass and leave woman and baby's alone!
Utah take your nose and shove it up your ass and leave woman and baby's alone!
165
I have miscarried 3 times in the last 3 years, one was cause of ovarian cysts the other was cause the baby just didn't take, and the 3rd was cause i wasn't paying attention and i tripped over the dog and fell. so i guess if i lived in Utah i would be facing 3 life sentences... So if they are accidents how should a woman be blamed for that, it doesn't mean shes neglectful, it just means that shes clumsy and that she might fall down a lot. Let the women be, its no ones choice but the woman to get an abortion and tell whom she may about it, and its no ones business if she miscarrys, if she wants to tell her Doc or her best friend about it so be it their business.
Utah take your nose and shove it up your ass and leave woman and baby's alone!
Utah take your nose and shove it up your ass and leave woman and baby's alone!
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