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News & ArtsFriday, February 12, 2010
Homo Today in the Defense of Traditional Marriage
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:48 AM
A lesbian and her partner are denied a marriage license in New York... but the clerk immediately issues one for her when a complete stranger—a gay man she's never met—volunteers to marry her on the spot.
We should be doing this in every marriage license office in the country.
2
Auuuugh, leave it to a homo to cock it all up, wait, let me rephrase that:
Lindy West, will you do me the honor of being my heterosexually-paired partner in civil disobedience, 'til political redundancy do we part? I promise to neither love, nor cherish you, and we'd probably see each other maybe 2 or 3 times a year and our only real contact will be via Slog, but I promise to tell people whenever possible that "I have a wife!" and use your full name, but I won't buy you a ring or a bouquet or anything consequential.
Lindy West, will you do me the honor of being my heterosexually-paired partner in civil disobedience, 'til political redundancy do we part? I promise to neither love, nor cherish you, and we'd probably see each other maybe 2 or 3 times a year and our only real contact will be via Slog, but I promise to tell people whenever possible that "I have a wife!" and use your full name, but I won't buy you a ring or a bouquet or anything consequential.
4
this is strictly a semantics question, but: does it actually count as civil disobedience if one is working within the parameters of existing laws? Wouldn't this be more like civil irony?
5
I read "The Commitment" a few months back - didn't you do precisely this with a lesbian friend in Seattle?
6
Yes just like you did. More dishonest pr campaigning. This is the precisly the sort of thing that ticks people off the more they see it. Maybe the message you want to run across is that anarchy should rule and get it over with.
7
As someone getting divorced, let me tell you this:
Not being able to get married is wonderful. I wish I couldn't have.
Not being able to get married is wonderful. I wish I couldn't have.
12
Can someone explain to me what's going on??
Lesbians want to get married but cannot so one of the lesbians marry a guy and... what? I don't get it.
Lesbians want to get married but cannot so one of the lesbians marry a guy and... what? I don't get it.
13
Well, it's fine, of course, just as long as they start makin' babies now. Jesus demands babies.
Also, am I the only one who kinda thinks Loveschild is spiraling out of control, or maybe just running out of inspiration? The posts it makes are getting more and more outlandish. There's no subtlety or consistency any more.
Also, am I the only one who kinda thinks Loveschild is spiraling out of control, or maybe just running out of inspiration? The posts it makes are getting more and more outlandish. There's no subtlety or consistency any more.
14
@12 sirkowski
I believe they are trying to make a statement of the ridiculousness that two loving, committed in a deep relationship with the support of their family lesbians can not get married. But then pull some random guy up and sure thing...you can get married.
I believe they are trying to make a statement of the ridiculousness that two loving, committed in a deep relationship with the support of their family lesbians can not get married. But then pull some random guy up and sure thing...you can get married.
15
Here's a question, and I apologize if this is stupid or there's an obvious reason why this is offensive or something, but what about engagement?
I'm envisioning gay and lesbian couples around the country getting engaged and setting the date as "as soon as it's legal." I'm imagining engagement announcements in newspapers and sent to families, increasing visibility.
Kind of like a shovel-ready projects kind of thing. "We have 15,000 engaged gay and lesbian couples in this state, ready to get married as soon as this bill is passed" or something.
Is this stupid? Is this already going on?
I'm envisioning gay and lesbian couples around the country getting engaged and setting the date as "as soon as it's legal." I'm imagining engagement announcements in newspapers and sent to families, increasing visibility.
Kind of like a shovel-ready projects kind of thing. "We have 15,000 engaged gay and lesbian couples in this state, ready to get married as soon as this bill is passed" or something.
Is this stupid? Is this already going on?
16
@6: You are right like a broken clock, LC! This SHOULD tick off people. The government is willing to be party to a fraudulent contract.
As far as your "anarchy should rule" comment, I don't think that anarchy would begin ruling because of the ability of more people to enter into a civil contract with each other and the government. But then I'm sure a smart gal like you knows more about anarchy's long standing partnership with organized government.
Wait, what? Oh, right, Loveschild is a moron.
As far as your "anarchy should rule" comment, I don't think that anarchy would begin ruling because of the ability of more people to enter into a civil contract with each other and the government. But then I'm sure a smart gal like you knows more about anarchy's long standing partnership with organized government.
Wait, what? Oh, right, Loveschild is a moron.
17
It seems like this is an ineffective form of civil disobedience. How about getting hundreds of homos to line up at the licensing office each morning to get rejected, go to the back of the line, and continue until they convince the clerk to issue the license or call the cops? Either way you'll get way more press than this kind of stunt.
19
@1: I beat you to the punch, but with my heterofiance News Intern Sarah. We'd like to set a world record for divorce. Just marry and divorce perpetually until gay marriage is legal.
Why, you ask?
Because as a man and a woman, it's our right!
Why, you ask?
Because as a man and a woman, it's our right!
20
@15--I totally didn't read your post carefully enough the first time, and now I have a mental image of thousands of engagement announcements with pictures of gay and lesbian couples holding shovels.
21
It might tick off people, but seems like it just inconveniences the protestors more than the protestees. I mean, you've now just complicated your taxes and given someone a claim on your property, etc.
Unless we start repeatedly marrying and immediately divorcing en masse to clog the system, I don't see what this accomplishes.
Unless we start repeatedly marrying and immediately divorcing en masse to clog the system, I don't see what this accomplishes.
23
@22: Really? That would be incredible. The real cost is filing for divorce, that's like $260... and a three-month waiting period in WA. But we could do around 11 marriages in the next three years, though hopefully we homos won't have to wait that long. This could be a fun project, and you're all invited to my wedding(s).
24
@6 - LC
You wrote: "Maybe the message you want to run across is that anarchy should rule and get it over with."
I'm kinda slow, but how does legally entering into a civil contract constitute anarchy? For that matter, how does pointing out gaping loopholes in the laws surrounding that contract constitute anarchy? I'm more inclined to go with #4, who called it "civil irony" (Great term. Thank you, lulubelle).
What Kitty Lambert and friends have illustrated is that, for all the talk of marriage being a sacred institution, designed to protect children, and designed to sanction certain sexual acts but not others (as you can see, LC, I'm borrowing from another one of your postings), the state has absolutely no interest in (a) how well the parties know each other, (b) whether they will have children, (c) whether they will have sex, or (d) what kind of sex they will have. Legal marriage (as differentiated from church marriage) is about two people making a decision to live their lives together, and the state trusting them to make all decisions realted to sex, children, finances, immigration and property in their own best interests...
...as long as one is male and one is female. If both are male (or both female), suddenly the state feels the need to micromanage their lives--largely by barring them from being able to make literally thousands of choices that other couples get to make every day, without question.
So what gay and lesbian couples want, above all else, is to be able to make those choices and have them be legal and equal under the law. And a movement driven by desires for equality of treatment under the law may be many things, but it is most certainly not anarchy.
You wrote: "Maybe the message you want to run across is that anarchy should rule and get it over with."
I'm kinda slow, but how does legally entering into a civil contract constitute anarchy? For that matter, how does pointing out gaping loopholes in the laws surrounding that contract constitute anarchy? I'm more inclined to go with #4, who called it "civil irony" (Great term. Thank you, lulubelle).
What Kitty Lambert and friends have illustrated is that, for all the talk of marriage being a sacred institution, designed to protect children, and designed to sanction certain sexual acts but not others (as you can see, LC, I'm borrowing from another one of your postings), the state has absolutely no interest in (a) how well the parties know each other, (b) whether they will have children, (c) whether they will have sex, or (d) what kind of sex they will have. Legal marriage (as differentiated from church marriage) is about two people making a decision to live their lives together, and the state trusting them to make all decisions realted to sex, children, finances, immigration and property in their own best interests...
...as long as one is male and one is female. If both are male (or both female), suddenly the state feels the need to micromanage their lives--largely by barring them from being able to make literally thousands of choices that other couples get to make every day, without question.
So what gay and lesbian couples want, above all else, is to be able to make those choices and have them be legal and equal under the law. And a movement driven by desires for equality of treatment under the law may be many things, but it is most certainly not anarchy.
26
@ 13 - Nope, you're not the only one. The erratic posts are just more evidence that LC is not a single messed-up individual, but a collective of individuals posting messed-up things. As time goes on, I'm more and more believing that the latter is the case.
Now, as to motive.... ??
Now, as to motive.... ??
27
Ben's idea is really, really great! I've never heard of it going on before. Dan, I hope you bring attention to it with slog post or shout-out in column to make it widespread.
29
I think trans peeps who are already married could do something similar. They could show up and have their marriage license name changed so it shows two men's or two women's names on it.
When all 4 +/- couples show up - that would show the man!
When all 4 +/- couples show up - that would show the man!
32
@15: Me and the future Mrs. Baconcat already did that. I got engaged, told everyone back home, said we're going to get married. Told my family, friends, changed my facebook, everything, registered as engaged to him with the planning committee for my HS reunion, even.
I bet there's a cotton industry in "...whenever it's legal" engagement announcements, though. I should look into that. Have a lawyer draft a simple affidavit that says "We, the undersigned, intend to fulfill the duties and obligations of marriage when the ability to do so is granted within this jurisdiction on equal footing in name and rights with all other forms of marriage currently legal within the aforementioned jurisdiction. Name 1: ____________ Name 2: ____________ Date: __________" and collect however many thousands of those roll in.
Oooooh, visibility, it's delicious.
I bet there's a cotton industry in "...whenever it's legal" engagement announcements, though. I should look into that. Have a lawyer draft a simple affidavit that says "We, the undersigned, intend to fulfill the duties and obligations of marriage when the ability to do so is granted within this jurisdiction on equal footing in name and rights with all other forms of marriage currently legal within the aforementioned jurisdiction. Name 1: ____________ Name 2: ____________ Date: __________" and collect however many thousands of those roll in.
Oooooh, visibility, it's delicious.
33
Just a fair warning to anyone thinking about doing this in WA: you will get screwed on your taxes come year end. In WA if you are married for one day in the year, you are considered to be married the entire year which means the money you two earned falls under the D.I.N.C. bracket where the government literally shoves a jagged stick in your eye ball.
So while I understand the point the video is trying to make, it may not be the most fiscally responsible way to do it.
So while I understand the point the video is trying to make, it may not be the most fiscally responsible way to do it.
34
Eh. Will people who oppose gay marriage see this and think "how ludicrously unjust?" or will they think "there you go, gay people can get married -- to the opposite gender."
It's funny (and sad), but I doubt it's going to convince anyone who disagrees with the concept of gay marriage.
It's funny (and sad), but I doubt it's going to convince anyone who disagrees with the concept of gay marriage.
35
These stunts prove that homosexuals are treated equally under the law.
No one minds a bit if homosexuals marry- so long as they follow the same rules all the rest of us do...
And, no, it's not civil disobedience.
It breaks no laws, requires no courage, makes no point.
No one minds a bit if homosexuals marry- so long as they follow the same rules all the rest of us do...
And, no, it's not civil disobedience.
It breaks no laws, requires no courage, makes no point.
36
Just another vote for Ben's idea. Seems effective, and likely to reach more people than hijinks in a clerk's office, and kinda heartwarming too.
37
@33--it might be different in WA State, but in NYS, where these folks were, you can't get married on the same day that you get the license, so it might be that they just got the license and didn't close the deal (and I hope for their sakes they didn't, because it's also very hard to get divorced in NYS).
38
Dan seems SHOCKED when the state marries people who are NOT IN LOVE!!
Evidently his mom read a few too many 'happily ever after...' Princess stories to him.
It's precious, if a little odd-
demanding to be able to
Marry the person you LOVE,
so you can then cheat on them...
Of course LOVE is easy-
to say, that is;
talk is cheap.
Walking the walk,
living a faithful committed life-
a little lot harder
and not quite as fun,
at least not for
developmentally stunted
emotionally immature
selfish types-
'happily ever after...'
makes a much better fairy tale
Evidently his mom read a few too many 'happily ever after...' Princess stories to him.
It's precious, if a little odd-
demanding to be able to
Marry the person you LOVE,
so you can then cheat on them...
Of course LOVE is easy-
to say, that is;
talk is cheap.
Walking the walk,
living a faithful committed life-
a little lot harder
and not quite as fun,
at least not for
developmentally stunted
emotionally immature
selfish types-
'happily ever after...'
makes a much better fairy tale
40
LovesChild and I are again on the same page, and so is "The Homosexual Agenda". Page 22 clearly lays out the protocols for anarchy. First step demand equal treatment under the law. Second step, get all teary and emotional. Third step do as that gal in the video did, reach out to the Gays and demand they work along with you. Of course the "rule of anarchy" as LovesChild states MUST be orderly and smooth running (?oh never mind?) but that's the power and mystery of "The Homosexual agenda". This head long rush to well run and orderly Anarchy MUST BE STOPPED. Deny Civil Rights to those you don't like, it's the only way to Save America and the children. Please before it's too late.
41
I, too, think that Ben's idea is fantastic! Think of the websites we could create, the databases of ready-to-roll marriages, the pre-orders of cake and flowers....
And I think everybody would look really cute standing there in their pictures, shovels in hand!
And I think everybody would look really cute standing there in their pictures, shovels in hand!
42
I find this rather distasteful... and I say this as a lesbian who would like to marry my partner one day. I would never want to be the person making the civil servant in the Dept of Records office (or whatever it's called in other states) feel bad about having to do her job. Why plead with her? She can't do anything about the situation, and she could get in trouble if she did issue the license.
I get it, the point is to show the absurdity of the situation, but I don't see how this accomplishes anything. I also agree with the point made earlier: a lot of anti-equality bigots argue that gay people CAN marry, as long as they marry someone of the opposite gender. This just proves their (ridiculous and unfeeling) point.
I get it, the point is to show the absurdity of the situation, but I don't see how this accomplishes anything. I also agree with the point made earlier: a lot of anti-equality bigots argue that gay people CAN marry, as long as they marry someone of the opposite gender. This just proves their (ridiculous and unfeeling) point.
43
@6
I am gay. I support civil protest. I am not an anarchist, contrary to your generalization, Loveschild.
You have a right to your opinion, and I will respect it to the extent that you respect mine. I will not, however, respect your name-calling.
I am gay. I support civil protest. I am not an anarchist, contrary to your generalization, Loveschild.
You have a right to your opinion, and I will respect it to the extent that you respect mine. I will not, however, respect your name-calling.
46
@41 - I think a real key would be all those pre-orders. When you get actual businesses being able to show concretely how much $$ they are losing, then maybe the "moral" argument, whatever that is, starts to look silly.
47
@46 - Exactly. Let's phrase this in terms the bigots CAN understand: dollars and cents. Show the businessfolks just exactly how much money they DON'T have access to right now, all because of simple bigotry.
Might get the old Equality Ball rolling pretty fast then, huh?
(Ben deserves a mushroom, a free pizza, a cuppa coffee and/or a pint of microbrew for this gold star idea of his, IMO!)
Might get the old Equality Ball rolling pretty fast then, huh?
(Ben deserves a mushroom, a free pizza, a cuppa coffee and/or a pint of microbrew for this gold star idea of his, IMO!)
49
Hello Equality Across America and Fellow Activists -
Now that we have the website up and running (check it out: www.equalityacrossamerica.org), the FEAT program getting off the ground, and a Harvey Milk Day Action underway, there are some things we need in order to run more productively...
Please let me know if you are available to help with any of the following:
1) Media Team - We need a team of people who are able to write, edit, and send press releases (we have a ton of press contacts!). We also need a social media guru who can tweet, facebook, and whatever else for us...
2) Organizers on the Ground - Harvey Milk Day Action is May 22nd! We need people to organize actions in every 50 states. If you are planning something (even if you are in the early stages) please let me know so I can hook you up with others in your state.
3) Web Help - We are looking for volunteer web help to put together a quick splash page for Harvey Milk Day. We own the domain www.harveymilkdayaction.com (and .org) but we need someone to help us set up something very simple!
Please let me know if you can help move this along. Feel free to pass this to anyone you think might be interested.
Now that we have the website up and running (check it out: www.equalityacrossamerica.org), the FEAT program getting off the ground, and a Harvey Milk Day Action underway, there are some things we need in order to run more productively...
Please let me know if you are available to help with any of the following:
1) Media Team - We need a team of people who are able to write, edit, and send press releases (we have a ton of press contacts!). We also need a social media guru who can tweet, facebook, and whatever else for us...
2) Organizers on the Ground - Harvey Milk Day Action is May 22nd! We need people to organize actions in every 50 states. If you are planning something (even if you are in the early stages) please let me know so I can hook you up with others in your state.
3) Web Help - We are looking for volunteer web help to put together a quick splash page for Harvey Milk Day. We own the domain www.harveymilkdayaction.com (and .org) but we need someone to help us set up something very simple!
Please let me know if you can help move this along. Feel free to pass this to anyone you think might be interested.
50
Here's a tactic, Gay man A changes his name to Lesbian B's name. Gay man with new name marries Lesbian C who is Lesbian B's true love. Upon marriage, Gay man A changes his name BACK. Boom, Lesbian B and C are now married for all legal purposes, no? Just to be safe Gay man A signs affidavit they he is still the husband but signs over all his marriage rights to Lesbian C.
51
Hello Equality Across America and Fellow Activists -
Now that we have the website up and running (check it out: www.equalityacrossamerica.org), the FEAT program getting off the ground, and a Harvey Milk Day Action underway, there are some things we need in order to run more productively...
Please let me know if you are available to help with any of the following:
1) Media Team - We need a team of people who are able to write, edit, and send press releases (we have a ton of press contacts!). We also need a social media guru who can tweet, facebook, and whatever else for us...
2) Organizers on the Ground - Harvey Milk Day Action is May 22nd! We need people to organize actions in every 50 states. If you are planning something (even if you are in the early stages) please let me know so I can hook you up with others in your state.
3) Web Help - We are looking for volunteer web help to put together a quick splash page for Harvey Milk Day. We own the domain www.harveymilkdayaction.com (and .org) but we need someone to help us set up something very simple!
Please let me know if you can help move this along. Feel free to pass this to anyone you think might be interested.
Now that we have the website up and running (check it out: www.equalityacrossamerica.org), the FEAT program getting off the ground, and a Harvey Milk Day Action underway, there are some things we need in order to run more productively...
Please let me know if you are available to help with any of the following:
1) Media Team - We need a team of people who are able to write, edit, and send press releases (we have a ton of press contacts!). We also need a social media guru who can tweet, facebook, and whatever else for us...
2) Organizers on the Ground - Harvey Milk Day Action is May 22nd! We need people to organize actions in every 50 states. If you are planning something (even if you are in the early stages) please let me know so I can hook you up with others in your state.
3) Web Help - We are looking for volunteer web help to put together a quick splash page for Harvey Milk Day. We own the domain www.harveymilkdayaction.com (and .org) but we need someone to help us set up something very simple!
Please let me know if you can help move this along. Feel free to pass this to anyone you think might be interested.
53
@17: that is a pretty good idea. How about this: 5000 gay couples lined up to get marriage licenses, all of them giving long long long long impassioned speeches about why they should be allowed to get married, get rejected and move immediately to the back of the line, thus CLOGGING UP THE WHOLE PROCESS and bringing the license office to it's knees! Basically a marriage filibuster. Nobody gets married until us gays do! THAT is civil disobedience! I say, bring it on!!!
54
@34 - Yes, that's the only lesson the clueless will learn from this: "They're gay and they got married. Where's the inequality?" In fact, I'm shocked that LC didn't jump right on that.
What's up LC? You can't hit a big, fat softball lobbed in your direction?
What's up LC? You can't hit a big, fat softball lobbed in your direction?
55
@19: yes, baby!! As soon as I am off my parents' health insurance, we'll live happily ever after, over and over.
56
But if i marry a stranger lesbian, will i have to support her? what will the alimony sich be like?
57
@50: If only. The thing is, that's an incredibly boot-leg way of getting things done and wouldn't stand up in court. Also (I'm not informed on this point), SSNs might be required/involved in some of that process.
Better to get public awareness out, filibuster marriage, and get people to change the law so that people get their innate rights like they're supposed to. Let's get this done.
Better to get public awareness out, filibuster marriage, and get people to change the law so that people get their innate rights like they're supposed to. Let's get this done.
59
@33: Lay off the weed. There is no income tax in Washington state. Plus, the state doesn't recognize same-secks marriage. Other than that, you are completely justified in your paranoia.
60
"We should be doing this in every marriage license office in the country."
Well, except in Iowa...
Well, except in Iowa...
61
@59: But there's a big property tax. And 33's point is that two *opposite-sex* people in WA State might consider this if they want to get married just to make a point.
62
Don't you think you should have the right to work in the city clerk's office without having a video of you being posted around the internet without your consent?
63
Just want to let people here know that people like Loveschild exist on every message board of this type and they are all shockingly similar, as if there's just some bigoted AI that's been written and unleashed on the net to keep us all on our heels.
The sooner we completely ignore these people, the faster they will go away. Rule #1, never directly respond to a post by one of these people, like a chain letter (which incidentally they love) it spirals out of control before you know what happened Simply remember that you now what you're talking about and they have the intellect of a rock. Specifically, a piece of limestone, which is pretty stupid even in rock circles. Stonehenge makes fun of limestone all the time.
The sooner we completely ignore these people, the faster they will go away. Rule #1, never directly respond to a post by one of these people, like a chain letter (which incidentally they love) it spirals out of control before you know what happened Simply remember that you now what you're talking about and they have the intellect of a rock. Specifically, a piece of limestone, which is pretty stupid even in rock circles. Stonehenge makes fun of limestone all the time.
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