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News & ArtsThursday, February 11, 2010
Religion / International The Politics of Headscarves
Posted by Charles Mudede on Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:58 AM
We find in The Oregonian something that draws from the highest possible expression of democracy:
With a strongly favorable vote in the House on Wednesday, Oregon is on its way to becoming the 48th state to permit teachers to wear head scarves and other religious dress in school.The 51-8 vote on House Bill 3686 is the first decision toward repealing Oregon's 87-year-old ban on religious garb. Oregon, Nebraska and Pennsylvania are the only states that prohibit religious clothing.
We find in France the expression of a lower (or even confused) form of democracy—a democracy that is not disentangled from nationalism:
Olivier Besancenot, the postman-turned-revolutionary at the helm of France's anti-capitalist movement, has been fiercely criticised from all sides of the political spectrum for fielding a headscarf-wearing candidate in forthcoming elections.Ilham Moussaid, a 21-year-old Muslim woman who describes herself as "feminist, secular and veiled", is running for the far-left New Anti-Capitalist party (NPA) in the south-eastern region of Avignon.
But, despite her insistence that there is no contradiction between her clothing and her political role, Moussaid's candidacy in the regional vote due in March has angered other feminists and politicians.
As for Saudi Arabia?
Saudi Arabia's religious police inspected shops for red roses, heart-shaped items or gifts wrapped in red and ordered storeowners to get rid of them as St Valentine's Day approaches.What an embarrassment.A statement by the police, informally known as the muttawa, said: “Those who don't comply will be punished.”
Western holidays are banned under Saudi's strict Wahhabi school of Islam.
3
what is sold in a shop and what an employee of the state (teacher) wears are two entirely different things. i would argue that teachers should not be allowed to wear religious garb while teaching, because that is tantamount to establishment of religion.
a note on counting states, Charles: just because most state pass (or repeal) a certain law doesn't make that action just. or are you saying that the 33 or so states that have passed anti-gay constitutional amendments are all justified because they're in the majority?
a note on counting states, Charles: just because most state pass (or repeal) a certain law doesn't make that action just. or are you saying that the 33 or so states that have passed anti-gay constitutional amendments are all justified because they're in the majority?
4
Lurleen @3 for the win. I agree we should keep religion out of schools, and that means all religions.
5
This post illustrates an interesting cultural and philosophical difference. In France, and many other European countries, religious freedom is articulated as "secularism," which means the enforced nonexpression of religious identity. In the U.S., religious freedom is articulated as free speech, which (usually) means the enforced tolerance of expression of religious identity in public. The French approach is in response to fear of oppression from religion; the American approach is in response to fear of religious oppression from government.
This difference applies analogously to the conception of racism, homophobia, etc.: nonacknowledgment of difference vs. tolerance of difference.
The Saudis I think can't even be discussed in the same context since they're not a democracy and they don't have civil rights and they certainly don't have freedom of speech or religion.
This difference applies analogously to the conception of racism, homophobia, etc.: nonacknowledgment of difference vs. tolerance of difference.
The Saudis I think can't even be discussed in the same context since they're not a democracy and they don't have civil rights and they certainly don't have freedom of speech or religion.
6
Charles,
I find what the Oregon house did not good. It is not a stretch to say the more liberal or tolerant a country or in this case a state is the more reactionary forces will creep in (under the guise of freedom of expression) and impose values and attire unequivocally at odds with the Occident. No sir, I don't like it.
And yes, on the other hand I do reluctantly agree with you that "nationalism" (read: racism) especially in Europe plays a role in defeating measures that would ban full burqua or chador (veiled women). I say reluctantly because and here's where you may part with me, I believe that radical Islam is a far greater threat than racist nationalism. Of course, this is the great contention of this age even before 9/11.
I find what the Oregon house did not good. It is not a stretch to say the more liberal or tolerant a country or in this case a state is the more reactionary forces will creep in (under the guise of freedom of expression) and impose values and attire unequivocally at odds with the Occident. No sir, I don't like it.
And yes, on the other hand I do reluctantly agree with you that "nationalism" (read: racism) especially in Europe plays a role in defeating measures that would ban full burqua or chador (veiled women). I say reluctantly because and here's where you may part with me, I believe that radical Islam is a far greater threat than racist nationalism. Of course, this is the great contention of this age even before 9/11.
7
@3, did i not say these words:"...something that draws from the highest possible expression of democracy." this was not just poetry; it was a clarification that addressed your second point.
8
The women who claim that wearing headscarves or burqas has no relation to them accepting second-class citizen status are fooling themselves. These "far-left" headscarft-wearers are profoundly deluded.
9
What's interesting to me about the controversy in France is that only about 1500 women in all of France wear a headscarf for religious reasons. Yet to hear the talk you'd think radical Muslimism was overrunning the country. It's a panic, pure and simple, and it has nothing to do with headscarves. It has to do with race hatred, as a country which has been dependent on immigration for decades finally faces up to the fact that you can't marginalize an entire people within your border without consequences, even if it means making some microscopic adjustments to your museum-quality national culture.
The headscarves themselves have nothing to do with religion; they have to do with standing up against oppression. That oppression comes from all sides, both within and without Islam, within and without the diaspora countries. The women in Oregon who potentially might wear headscarves in schools are attempting to locate her identity, that's all. It's no more an "establishment of religion" than a plain blue dress is, or a sudden sexy hemline.
The headscarves themselves have nothing to do with religion; they have to do with standing up against oppression. That oppression comes from all sides, both within and without Islam, within and without the diaspora countries. The women in Oregon who potentially might wear headscarves in schools are attempting to locate her identity, that's all. It's no more an "establishment of religion" than a plain blue dress is, or a sudden sexy hemline.
10
@7 Charles, a legislature taking a vote is not at all drawing on the purest form of democracy. A vote by the electorate would do that. And thank heavens we don't have a pure democracy here, otherwise I and my LGBT bretheren (and probably you, as a brown-colored man) would be dead or at the very least more severely handicapped by law than we are already.
11
Thanks, Simac @5, for succinctly crystallizing my long-standing vague and half-hearted attempts to make sense of these kinds of stories in the back of my mind.
13
@12 -- Oh please. Teachers are not robots or slaves. Until a state-mandated uniform for teachers is adopted, clothing remains a personal choice of expression.
14
@3/4- Nonsense. Wearing religious garb is the teacher doing something. Unless they're forcing the students to pray, invoke God as part of a nationalistic vow, or evangelizing, I don't care if a teacher wears a cross necklace, a head scarf, etc...
15
"The headscarves themselves have nothing to do with religion; they have to do with standing up against oppression."
If that's so, its only because the teacher or "feminist" in question says it is. Hijab have everything to do with religion. They are a concrete manifestation of the inherent misogyny of Islam (or, yes, all monotheisms).
If that's so, its only because the teacher or "feminist" in question says it is. Hijab have everything to do with religion. They are a concrete manifestation of the inherent misogyny of Islam (or, yes, all monotheisms).
16
@13 we're talking about religiously symbolic clothing, not clothes in general. Nobody except you said that teachers are robots or slaves.
17
"feminist, secular and veiled"... sounds kind of neurotic. Part of the animosity towards Muslim garb is the arrogaunce that when Muslims demand western society accomodate them.... yet when westerners try that in the Muslim world they are considered obnoxious and disrespectful. The debate is always "the west respecting Islam" never "Islam respecting the west"
18
Dwight, you say you're OK with a teacher wearing a cross on a necklace. How would you feel about it if the cross was one of those big-assed eight-inchers the nuns wear? Worn outside their clothing? Because that's the equivalent of the statement wearing a hajib makes. Nobody needs to have someone else's religion shoved down their throat like that in a public school.
19
@10:
Well, if we're talking the "purest form of democracy" in its original context, that of the Athenian Greeks who invented the system, then "the electorate" would be limited strictly to native-born male property owners.
And from what I can see, the OR Legislature is taking a common-sense approach to what is admittedly a rather thorny issue, since it appears they're saying that ALL religious garb would be permitted, which has the effect of honoring the non-establishment clause of the 1st Amendment by not show favoritism to any particular religion. Presumably, under this law yarmulkas, hajibs, dastars, cross or pentagram necklaces, et al would all be allowable.
Well, if we're talking the "purest form of democracy" in its original context, that of the Athenian Greeks who invented the system, then "the electorate" would be limited strictly to native-born male property owners.
And from what I can see, the OR Legislature is taking a common-sense approach to what is admittedly a rather thorny issue, since it appears they're saying that ALL religious garb would be permitted, which has the effect of honoring the non-establishment clause of the 1st Amendment by not show favoritism to any particular religion. Presumably, under this law yarmulkas, hajibs, dastars, cross or pentagram necklaces, et al would all be allowable.
20
Yes, Comte, and that tracks with the Supreme Court's rulings on this issue also. It still doesn't mean I agree with it, though. Unlike Sarah Palin, I can name a whole lot more than one S.Ct. decision I disagree with, and this is certainly one of them.
I thing I'm going to start a religion based on BDSM. That should give me a "right" to teach a class with handcuffs and ball gags hanging from my belt, right?
I thing I'm going to start a religion based on BDSM. That should give me a "right" to teach a class with handcuffs and ball gags hanging from my belt, right?
21
I don't see this as being much different than it is now. Our two children are in the public education system, I will confess that it is an international school. Their classmates and teachers come from all over the world, and so they see religiously symbolic clothing every single day, major world religions and indigenous ones. They have visiting teachers, and individuals such as Arun Gandhi and Jane Goodall (in Goodall's case they went to her) come address them. They openly discuss their similarities and differences religious, culture wise etc... There is no proselytizing that I am aware of. And, this is a school that has about 60% of its population participate in Gay Straight Alliance events. These students make me hopeful for the future, they seem to get that it is the character of a person that truly matters.
22
Works for me, Kimmie. Oh, by the way, let them know I'll be visiting their school to talk about my new religion shortly. (Hey, it's no more kooky than the rest of them.)
23
5280- Nuns don't wear those crosses anymore. In fact, they don't even wear headscarves (though I hear Nazi Pope wants that to change.) But anyway, it wouldn't really bother me provided the teacher wasn't trying to teach his/her religion.
I had a teacher in seventh grade who dressed like everyone else and managed to work in his evangelical Christianity occasionally. He was out of line. I had several teachers who wore religious symbols (Stars of David or crosses) and one who was a minister (with the collar and everything, private school Old Testament class, Bible as historical text) who managed to teach without evangelizing.
I had a teacher in seventh grade who dressed like everyone else and managed to work in his evangelical Christianity occasionally. He was out of line. I had several teachers who wore religious symbols (Stars of David or crosses) and one who was a minister (with the collar and everything, private school Old Testament class, Bible as historical text) who managed to teach without evangelizing.
24
FYI: In case you're just thinking Muslim, the largest head-scarf wearing segment in Oregon is probably Russian Old-Believer ladies who would sooner go naked than without a head scarf. In fact, some Russian ladies wear scarves in the banja.
25
The question is, what do the teachers answer when the kids ask why they are wearing the headscarf? If they keep the answer brief and value-neutral ("it's a symbol of my religion, like a cross is a symbol for a Christian") that would be okay, but it's important to avoid proselytizing, or even the appearance of proselytizing.
26
So basically what everyone who is saying that this is the wrong move and that such attire should remain forbidden is saying that someone who is religious in an orthodox manner isn't allowed to teach in a public school. I don't get it, especially with the need for GOOD teachers these days, why ban a section of our population from being able to teach? There's a huge difference between wearing tzitzit and kippah, or wearing hijab, or wearing a snood, or wearing any other cutural-relgious attire and teaching religion. If little Jimmy desides to ask his teacher why they dress the way they do, they'll likely get a very basic explanation that it's part of their religion, the kid goes on his way. No harm done, except maybe showing the kid that just because you look/dress different doesn't mean you're bad/wrong/evil. Ooh, there's an idea- teaching kids acceptence.
29
@28- No it's not.
see, our arguments have equal weight.
I'm a militant agnostic, I believe in a big ass wall between church and state, I believe very strongly in secular education. I also don't see why we should force religious people to be absolutely invisible. Just because a kid knows someone has a religion doesn't mean they've been preached at.
see, our arguments have equal weight.
I'm a militant agnostic, I believe in a big ass wall between church and state, I believe very strongly in secular education. I also don't see why we should force religious people to be absolutely invisible. Just because a kid knows someone has a religion doesn't mean they've been preached at.
30
@29 Thanks for the clarity DM. Lurleen sounds like the Fundmentals she doesn"t want to be around. "My way is the only way!"
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