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News & ArtsThursday, February 11, 2010
Hetero Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:27 AM
Meanwhile in Phoenix:
A 14-year-old Phoenix girl was fed once every day or two, maybe some crackers or a can of food, police said. She was locked in a bathroom without running water for two months, forced to use a bucket instead of a toilet, police said. She told police her father beat her with metal rods and belts. And her bed? A blanket on the tile floor. Authorities say the malnourished girl managed to escape her virtual prison, and her father and stepmother were arrested for investigation of child abuse, kidnapping and unlawful imprisonment.... [When] police arrived at the girl's home to interview Scott Bass, he thought the girl was still in the bathroom and was "visibly surprised" when he unlocked the door and she was gone.The girl had escaped through the attic and rode her bike to a nearby movie theater, where a concerned couple gave her $50, police said. She then rode about 13 miles to a Phoenix strip mall and bought water, food, a backpack and clothes because she hadn't been allowed to change for weeks, Samudio said. After that, the girl rode to a coffee shop in Scottsdale, where she asked an employee to call police.
And this detail leaps out:
Scott Bass told investigators he locked his daughter in the bathroom because she stole food from the kitchen and cheated on a home-school test, according to the document.
God only knows how many child abusers "home school" their kids in order to isolate their children and avoid the scrutiny of teachers and school officials who are legally obligated to report suspected abuse to the authorities.
2
Home schooling should be illegal. Kids need time away from their parents. They need to develop the social skills of interacting with other kids and adults who aren't their parents.
And most parents aren't good teachers.
Then there's shit like this on top of all that.
And most parents aren't good teachers.
Then there's shit like this on top of all that.
4
Like the vast majority of all parents, straight or queer, 99.99% of home schooling parents have chosen the path of education they think will serve their kids best. Just as others prefer public or private school. But thanks for accusing us home schoolers of all being secret child abusers, now I finally understand what it is like to be gay and assumed to be a child molester.
5
Yep, the "home-schoolers" are the whackiest of the whackadoodles. It should be illegal everywhere.
6
The thing about home-schooling is that I fail how your average parent can provide a decent education. Most adults I know are retarded. I hold a graduate degree in a life science and I could imagine trying to teach a child anything substantial about social studies or English. I really should be illegal or at least substantially more difficult to do home-schooling. Whenever I see it, it is always religious people terrified of heathen or over protective parents.
7
@4: The thing is you don't know jack shit about what it's like to be gay because you weren't born a home schooler. You chose to home school your kids because you hold some crazy, irrational beliefs.
8
Nonsense, most people who homeschool have good reason for it, public schools cannot meet the needs of many children because they have to work with mostly normal kids. If, like me, you have kids who are twice exceptional, the schools simply don't have enough kids like them to do the best possible job. Plus, many inner city schools are both lousy and dangerous. Our school district actually, unlike many, has a separate classroom for the gifted kids; but it couldn't handle my daughter because of her learning disablility, despite the fact that she had the highest Cogac scores in the district this year. As is, she's back in the regular classroom with an extra couple hours at home to get the challenge she needs. It's ridiculous, and if I or my husband had the skills she'd undoubtably do better at home.
9
@8: "It's ridiculous, and if I or my husband had the skills she'd undoubtably do better at home."
I fail to see how it is ridiculous since you, your husband, and most people don't have the skills.
I fail to see how it is ridiculous since you, your husband, and most people don't have the skills.
11
I know some exceptionally smart, liberal people who home-school their kids. They're the sort of people who were always bored and stifled by their own educations. But what I don't get is... isn't one of the most important lessons for kids how to deal with various systems and structures? Seems to me like there's a lot to be said for helping your children learn to deal with a school that ISN'T optimized for them. Let's face it, most of life is not optimized for the liver.
12
@8: 1) Your kids are not the unique snowflakes you think they are. I know it's hard to hear but they're just like thousands of other kids. Everybody's a little different, but we're all mostly alike. Teachers have to deal with whatever weird bullshit comes along with each kid.
2) As you admit, you do not have the skills, and neither do other parents who homeschool. Even former teachers. Homeschooling your kids is not doing them any favors.
There are no good reasons for homeschooling. I'm sure they SEEM like good reasons to the idiot parents who do it, but they aren't.
2) As you admit, you do not have the skills, and neither do other parents who homeschool. Even former teachers. Homeschooling your kids is not doing them any favors.
There are no good reasons for homeschooling. I'm sure they SEEM like good reasons to the idiot parents who do it, but they aren't.
13
I DO have a friend who home schools her kids, and they aren't creepy child abusers. She encourages her kids to have friends and her daughter has had a spot as a radio DJ.
HOWEVER, she's also getting out of the homeschool community, since they tend to be conservative nutjobs, and send around anti-gay emails and literature at the meetings.
HOWEVER, she's also getting out of the homeschool community, since they tend to be conservative nutjobs, and send around anti-gay emails and literature at the meetings.
14
Wow. How lame are all the above comments? There are many great home-schoolers, and of course, there are some not so great ones. Just like there are good schools and schools you wouldn't ever send your kids to. Way to generalize, folks!
16
Oh, come on, people. It's idiotic to argue that home-schooling is either the only solution or a complete mistake. Of course it shouldn't be illegal. And of course most home-schoolers don't abuse their kids. I realize that people have strong feelings about this (because it's a blog and people have strong feelings about everything), but can we at least have a rational discussion about it?
I say this because I'm tending to agree with the unregistered commenters for once, and this is bizarre.
I say this because I'm tending to agree with the unregistered commenters for once, and this is bizarre.
17
This girl did the right thing. She got the fuck out, got as far away as her bike would take her, and called the police. I hope she grows up to be so successful its stupid. Its almost inspiring.
18
For the people saying "Homeschooling shouldn't be illegal.", please give some good rational arguments for why someone SHOULD homeschool their kids. Not could but should. Why it would be the better choice for a kid than going to public/private school where they would actually learn to deal with the world outside of their own home.
19
@17: It is inspiring. This girl sounds plucky as hell. She sounds like a survivor, so maybe she'll come out of this okay.
20
What a brave, resourceful girl. She's amazing. I mean, YEESH, the abuse, but she dealt with it perfectly.
God, I can only imagine the "visible suprise" on the dad's face when he found out she'd flown the coop.
God, I can only imagine the "visible suprise" on the dad's face when he found out she'd flown the coop.
21
@18: Why not could, instead of should? Why set the terms of the argument that way? Homeschooling is a choice, and for some it's a good one. Kids who are very bright aren't served well by the average classroom, and if they're being bullied on top of it -- a situation that is not unusual at all -- their grades drop. Switching schools or, yes, homeschooling (if the parents have the time and commitment) is a good choice to make in that situation.
We need flexibility in our educational system. Most teachers know this, and fight for it constantly. Homeschooling should be one option among many.
Please, note, though, that I'm aware that the trend in the U.S. is that most homeschooling is done by religious fundamentalists. It's not as common in Canada, so that might be the basis of our disagreement here.
We need flexibility in our educational system. Most teachers know this, and fight for it constantly. Homeschooling should be one option among many.
Please, note, though, that I'm aware that the trend in the U.S. is that most homeschooling is done by religious fundamentalists. It's not as common in Canada, so that might be the basis of our disagreement here.
22
I agree with @12 & @18. I'm still waiting for a reason not to distrust the instinct to homeschool your kids, not to mention the efficacy.
23
Home schooling has CHANGED from what it used to be. There are now huge communities of learning based on socialization and letting your children learn at their own pace and in the ways they learn best. Please do some research on current Learning Communities or Democratic Learning before opening your mouth. The San Francisco Bay Area especially has a lot of great "home schooling" or "unschooling" communities. And I am moving to Tempe, AZ where there is a great learning community that is not based on religion. To more drive my point home, I have two friends who live in Berkeley who were "home schooled" within a home schooling community and they have hands down learned MUCH more than my public school education taught me. I was a "good student" in public school. Went to class, did my homework, yet I still have trouble with simple math and get certain types of grammar confused (like the difference between "affect" and "effect"... haha. But I can call any of my home schooled friends or Democratic Learning friends and they will be able to explain something to me every single time.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/free…
this link I think is something that most homeschooling parents would agree with, and what I think most homeschooling is based on.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/free…
this link I think is something that most homeschooling parents would agree with, and what I think most homeschooling is based on.
24
What a brave girl. Poor thing has been through so much and yet, found her way out. What strength.
25
Okay, wait. One comment in one column of the gods know how many of this series, and suddenly it's "all homeschoolers are child molesters" time?
I was born in a city, but my parents moved to an extremely rural area (and this is in a third-world country) to engage in social work. Of the secular kind, btw. They're liberal, rational people; they most definitely are not conservative wingnuts, they didn't homeschool me because they wanted to shelter me from the big bad Other, and my mother had a good ten years' teaching experience by the time she began with me. If they'd put me in the public system of this country, I wouldn't have had the opportunities I did, or half the knowledge and understanding I have. I spent more than enough time around people of all ages, including my peer group, and was not remotely isolated, which was quite an accomplishment on their part, given the geographical and cultural constraints of the place I was living in. And fwiw, I'm far from the only person I know whose parents homeschooled for non-religious reasons.
@12... you know, if you think that no parents are qualified to teach, and all teachers are capable of it, I really must ask if you were homeschooled yourself, in order to have such a deplorable lack of understanding at the state of primary public education in the US.
@18.... I can think of several offhand. The parents might be better qualified to teach than most teachers in the area (a real concern where I live). The family might be living in a fairly remote area where finding educators would be difficult. The child in question might have emotional/physical issues that the school system cannot or will not handle. Or if the child is exceptionally gifted, and the parents have the resources to teach the child without having the literally hundreds of thousands required (a good boarding school starts at 700,000 for tuition alone in these parts). Many special needs children do better when they're not crammed in with fifteen other kids with radically different problems and treated as if they all have the same issues/needs/capacities. And in my case, physical weakness (I was physically unable to write until ten, and cannot manage more than a couple of A4 sheets even today) which would have led to a crippling failure in a public school system where I was not allowed to type out answers. And yes, I have taken exams that are the equivalent of a high-school diploma, yes, I am currently pursuing further education, and no, I am not, in fact, remotely religious, nor was I forbidden to explore religions that were not my own while growing up.
More...
I was born in a city, but my parents moved to an extremely rural area (and this is in a third-world country) to engage in social work. Of the secular kind, btw. They're liberal, rational people; they most definitely are not conservative wingnuts, they didn't homeschool me because they wanted to shelter me from the big bad Other, and my mother had a good ten years' teaching experience by the time she began with me. If they'd put me in the public system of this country, I wouldn't have had the opportunities I did, or half the knowledge and understanding I have. I spent more than enough time around people of all ages, including my peer group, and was not remotely isolated, which was quite an accomplishment on their part, given the geographical and cultural constraints of the place I was living in. And fwiw, I'm far from the only person I know whose parents homeschooled for non-religious reasons.
@12... you know, if you think that no parents are qualified to teach, and all teachers are capable of it, I really must ask if you were homeschooled yourself, in order to have such a deplorable lack of understanding at the state of primary public education in the US.
@18.... I can think of several offhand. The parents might be better qualified to teach than most teachers in the area (a real concern where I live). The family might be living in a fairly remote area where finding educators would be difficult. The child in question might have emotional/physical issues that the school system cannot or will not handle. Or if the child is exceptionally gifted, and the parents have the resources to teach the child without having the literally hundreds of thousands required (a good boarding school starts at 700,000 for tuition alone in these parts). Many special needs children do better when they're not crammed in with fifteen other kids with radically different problems and treated as if they all have the same issues/needs/capacities. And in my case, physical weakness (I was physically unable to write until ten, and cannot manage more than a couple of A4 sheets even today) which would have led to a crippling failure in a public school system where I was not allowed to type out answers. And yes, I have taken exams that are the equivalent of a high-school diploma, yes, I am currently pursuing further education, and no, I am not, in fact, remotely religious, nor was I forbidden to explore religions that were not my own while growing up.
26
@21: It's only 'a good choice' as you say if they SHOULD do it, that's why I specifically stated should not could.
I still don't see any rational arguments why it should be done.
You kind of brush around the edges of an argument that smart kids are better off being homeschooled because the class doesn't challenge them enough and they get bullied.
I don't think that's really a valid argument, nor a logical and rational one. There is absolutely no reason why a smart kid cannot find challenge in public/private school, they can be moved up in grades, they can take AP classes, they can do extra work.
Regarding bullying, I would argue that it is not exclusive to smart kids, and learning to cope with assholes is something we all need to do. You're not doing your kid any favors by pulling them out of school to avoid bullying.
Next, please.
I still don't see any rational arguments why it should be done.
You kind of brush around the edges of an argument that smart kids are better off being homeschooled because the class doesn't challenge them enough and they get bullied.
I don't think that's really a valid argument, nor a logical and rational one. There is absolutely no reason why a smart kid cannot find challenge in public/private school, they can be moved up in grades, they can take AP classes, they can do extra work.
Regarding bullying, I would argue that it is not exclusive to smart kids, and learning to cope with assholes is something we all need to do. You're not doing your kid any favors by pulling them out of school to avoid bullying.
Next, please.
27
@26 - another thing I forgot to mention: Sometimes you do manage to do your kid a favour by pulling them out of school to avoid bullying. My best friend growing up was bullied until she went mute with the stress; her mother took her out of school for two and a half years, taught her at home, and proceeded to put her back into (a different) school at the tenth grade. She's currently about to finish her bachelor's in economics. I'm not saying homeschooling is (or should be) a universal choice, and I'd be the last person to suggest that everyone (or really, almost anyone) should undertake it, but please realise that there are circumstances under which it is, in fact, better for a child to be out of school, at least temporarily.
28
@25: You do a good job of illustrating why I think homeschooling is so awful. Physically unable to write until 10 and cannot handle more than a couple sheets of paper? What the fuck? Maybe if you had gotten out of the house more growing up you wouldn't have the physique of a veal calf.
29
@27: Your friend's mother should have stepped in and stopped the bullying sooner. She fucked up by letting it go so far. And once it did go so far she should have confronted the problem head on instead of pulling her kid out to avoid it. Not every obstacle in life can be circumvented, many must be traversed.
30
My children aren't unique snowflakes, there are lots of kids just like them, because there are so many people in the world. However, look at the statistics; both my elder kids score in the top 5% for intelligence, so they are already one out of twenty kids. Then one has severe ADHD, and the other is mildly autistic, that makes them in the 10% of kids with those issues. Assuming that IQ is not linked to ADHD or autism, then to get the percentage of kids like them you multiply 0.05 times 0.1 to get 0.005; or about 0.5%. That means that there are so few kids like them, most school districts don't cope well with them. My eldest is in sixth grade, he's currently studying perimeters of shapes in math at school. At home, two years ago, we introduced him to the concept of imaginary numbers; he understood it in an evening. They aren't engaging him at school, he hates it, he hates teachers. It's not a good place for him. They accomodated his fine motor skill disability well; and have worked with his autism nicely; but his giftedness has been profoundly underserved; and he's bored with school. I agree with him, it's a waste of his time and efforts.
If you are interested here are a couple links to the difficulties faced by the twice exceptional:
http://www.education.com/magazine/articl…
http://www.iser.com/resources/ld-gifted.…
My lack of skills relates primarily to my being extremely disorganized, not to the ability to teach. Homeschooled children perform as well on tests as public schooled children and are generally better socialized, because they're learning their social skills from adults who have these skills; not attempting to learn them from other kids with a range of social abilities.
http://www.ontariohomeschool.org/sociali…
http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/200908100…
Just because abusive parents can use homeschooling as a cover for abuse, doesn't mean that it should be illegal. Just as abusive parents can use a camera or video to make child porn, doesn't mean that parents shouldn't own cameras.
Final point. I am an atheist, have been since I was nineteen. However, my family is very religious. That doesn't make them crippled, stupid, abusive, or immoral. I get very frustrated by the parochialism of people who clearly don't know or care to know anyone outside their little group of friends and would rather simply demonize the "other". If christianity vanished from the planet, there would still be evil people doing evil things, in about the same proportions as now exist. People make their gods in their own images, and those who make evil ones will still be evil people.
More...
If you are interested here are a couple links to the difficulties faced by the twice exceptional:
http://www.education.com/magazine/articl…
http://www.iser.com/resources/ld-gifted.…
My lack of skills relates primarily to my being extremely disorganized, not to the ability to teach. Homeschooled children perform as well on tests as public schooled children and are generally better socialized, because they're learning their social skills from adults who have these skills; not attempting to learn them from other kids with a range of social abilities.
http://www.ontariohomeschool.org/sociali…
http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/200908100…
Just because abusive parents can use homeschooling as a cover for abuse, doesn't mean that it should be illegal. Just as abusive parents can use a camera or video to make child porn, doesn't mean that parents shouldn't own cameras.
Final point. I am an atheist, have been since I was nineteen. However, my family is very religious. That doesn't make them crippled, stupid, abusive, or immoral. I get very frustrated by the parochialism of people who clearly don't know or care to know anyone outside their little group of friends and would rather simply demonize the "other". If christianity vanished from the planet, there would still be evil people doing evil things, in about the same proportions as now exist. People make their gods in their own images, and those who make evil ones will still be evil people.
31
Well there are always two sides to every story. I was home schooled an I was never abused and my parents did lock me in the bathroom a few times. I learned my lesson. This was probably a bad kid.
32
Dan Savage: "God only knows how many child abusers "home school" their kids in order to isolate their children and avoid the scrutiny of teachers and school officials who are legally obligated to report suspected abuse to the authorities."
Because, this family abused their child, so obviously ALL homeschoolers abuse their children.
Right?
GOD ONLY KNOWS HOW MANY!...
Just like, well just like homosexuals adopt little boys so they can have sex with them and rent them out for other homosexuals to have sex with.
IT'S JUST LIKE THAT...
It must be true, I read it on the Slog:
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
GOD ONLY KNOWS HOW MANY HOMOSEXUALS ADOPT LITTLE BOYS TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM...
Because, this family abused their child, so obviously ALL homeschoolers abuse their children.
Right?
GOD ONLY KNOWS HOW MANY!...
Just like, well just like homosexuals adopt little boys so they can have sex with them and rent them out for other homosexuals to have sex with.
IT'S JUST LIKE THAT...
It must be true, I read it on the Slog:
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
GOD ONLY KNOWS HOW MANY HOMOSEXUALS ADOPT LITTLE BOYS TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM...
33
@30: Instead of agreeing with your kid that he's wasting his time you should encourage him to find more challenges, do more work. There's no reason he couldn't be in the 7th or 8th grade math classes. I was taking 8th grade math in 6th grade.
I still am not hearing any rational arguments why kids SHOULD be homeschooled, just a bunch of emotionally charged bullshit.
I still am not hearing any rational arguments why kids SHOULD be homeschooled, just a bunch of emotionally charged bullshit.
34
This home-schooled kid earned her first college degree at age 16 and is about to enter a fully-funded Ph.D. program on Fellowship. My parents are not religious fundamentalists (although that contingent is very real) or child molesters. It was somewhat isolating, and the 3 years I spent in a public school were a great help when it came to social skills. The academics weren't enough, though, which is why I dropped out and went to college early. Just throwing that out there.
35
@18: I don't see how homeschooling inherently prevents a kid from "dealing with the world outside their home." A good homeschooling parent recognizes the limitations and does their best to involve their child with other homeschooled kids, or sign them up for outside activities.
You could argue that many school environments aren't real worlds either, that they have their own problems of isolation and control. Private school, for one, can be fairly unrealistic as a teaching environment since many institutions enjoy funding and all kinds of amenities that aren't accessible to many. I doubt ensuring that the majority of families are in the same income bracket also creates a helpful social environment.
That said, no, I probably wouldn't homeschool my children, because I just don't have the time or dedication. But that doesn't mean I think the choice should be denied others. There's probably lots of private-school parents out there who think I should be outlawed from subjecting my child to the horrors of public school.
You could argue that many school environments aren't real worlds either, that they have their own problems of isolation and control. Private school, for one, can be fairly unrealistic as a teaching environment since many institutions enjoy funding and all kinds of amenities that aren't accessible to many. I doubt ensuring that the majority of families are in the same income bracket also creates a helpful social environment.
That said, no, I probably wouldn't homeschool my children, because I just don't have the time or dedication. But that doesn't mean I think the choice should be denied others. There's probably lots of private-school parents out there who think I should be outlawed from subjecting my child to the horrors of public school.
36
I wouldn't be opposed to homeschooling my kids for a short period of time (a year or two) if there was some particularly reason why the school wasn't meeting their needs or the environment was excessively toxic. But there's just "something" about 90% of the homeschooled kids I've met -- this inability to relate to people in a normal way, or social skills that are just "off".
My friends and I have something called the "homeschool moment" -- the moment you find out someone was homeschooled and suddenly everything about their personality clicks and makes much more sense.
One of my best friends married a guy who was home-schooled until high school (liberal hippie homeschooling as opposed to conservative Christian). He is an amazing guy and fabulous in almost every respect, but, I still had a "homeschooled moment" with him.
I don't know -- I would bet there's something fundamental about learning to socialize and navigate complex human relationships that schooling outside the home provides, that somehow homeschooling can't (even if there are efforts to socialize the kids with sports, etc.).
My friends and I have something called the "homeschool moment" -- the moment you find out someone was homeschooled and suddenly everything about their personality clicks and makes much more sense.
One of my best friends married a guy who was home-schooled until high school (liberal hippie homeschooling as opposed to conservative Christian). He is an amazing guy and fabulous in almost every respect, but, I still had a "homeschooled moment" with him.
I don't know -- I would bet there's something fundamental about learning to socialize and navigate complex human relationships that schooling outside the home provides, that somehow homeschooling can't (even if there are efforts to socialize the kids with sports, etc.).
37
@28 and 29 - Premature arthritis, and it only hits my hands. The rest of me was pretty athletic growing up, as a matter of fact. Thanks for your consideration, though.
And the friend's mother didn't know it was going on until her daughter collapsed from it.
And the friend's mother didn't know it was going on until her daughter collapsed from it.
38
@ 32 - Dude, your totally mischaracterizing Dan's point. He's saying that homeschooling can be one way to cover up child abuse, even if the vast majority of homeschoolers are perfectly fine (if probably overprotective) parents. Hell, most abused children DO attend public schools, and I see nothing in the post that suggests that homeschooling should be outlawed. Hell, that would be downright unconstitutional. But abusers of all kinds - domestic abusers especially - typically employ the tactic of isolating the abused from his/her friends and peers. Dan's not saying that all home schooling is suspect; rather, because it falls into a pattern of behavior that includes isolating a child from other children and adults, there's increased capacity for abuse.
On the other hand, there is no correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia, period. Your comparison is complete bullshit.
On the other hand, there is no correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia, period. Your comparison is complete bullshit.
39
@7 Of course as a heterosexual I don't know what it's like to be gay, I was merely pointing out the irony of Dan accusing all home schoolers of being child abusers (they are not) when Dan is always pointing out that people who equate gay with child molesters suck (they really really suck). Stupid generalizations about any part of society really annoy me, even when they come from my favorite columnist.
As for my reasons for home schooling, they are not religious, crazy, or irrational. My daughter is a fucking genius and I didn't think it would be appropriate to send a 10-year-old to high school with teenagers. But don't worry, she spends time in a classroom with lots of kids her age almost everyday, not locked away from the world in my house turning into a socially-stunted freak.
I think parents should be trusted to know what is the best educational path for their kids. I have no problem with public, private, or home school. They all have pros and cons. My family has had great experiences with all of them.
I think your beliefs about home school and home schoolers are crazy and irrational.
As for my reasons for home schooling, they are not religious, crazy, or irrational. My daughter is a fucking genius and I didn't think it would be appropriate to send a 10-year-old to high school with teenagers. But don't worry, she spends time in a classroom with lots of kids her age almost everyday, not locked away from the world in my house turning into a socially-stunted freak.
I think parents should be trusted to know what is the best educational path for their kids. I have no problem with public, private, or home school. They all have pros and cons. My family has had great experiences with all of them.
I think your beliefs about home school and home schoolers are crazy and irrational.
40
@7 Of course as a heterosexual I don't know what it's like to be gay, I was merely pointing out the irony of Dan accusing all home schoolers of being child abusers (they are not) when Dan is always pointing out that people who equate gay with child molesters suck (they really really suck). Stupid generalizations about any part of society really annoy me, even when they come from my favorite columnist.
As for my reasons for home schooling, they are not religious, crazy, or irrational. My daughter is a fucking genius and I didn't think it would be appropriate to send a 10-year-old to high school with teenagers. But don't worry, she spends time in a classroom with lots of kids her age almost everyday, not locked away from the world in my house turning into a socially-stunted freak.
I think parents should be trusted to know what is the best educational path for their kids. I have no problem with public, private, or home school. They all have pros and cons. My family has had great experiences with all of them.
I think your beliefs about home school and home schoolers are crazy and irrational.
As for my reasons for home schooling, they are not religious, crazy, or irrational. My daughter is a fucking genius and I didn't think it would be appropriate to send a 10-year-old to high school with teenagers. But don't worry, she spends time in a classroom with lots of kids her age almost everyday, not locked away from the world in my house turning into a socially-stunted freak.
I think parents should be trusted to know what is the best educational path for their kids. I have no problem with public, private, or home school. They all have pros and cons. My family has had great experiences with all of them.
I think your beliefs about home school and home schoolers are crazy and irrational.
41
@33: Dude, if there's anyone being emotionally charged here, it's you calling people veal calves.
@36: I sort of understand your point, except if this guy is basically amazing and fabulous, I don't get why a couple of moments of social discomfort are throwing you this much.
I met a lot of shitty people during my time in school. I'd rather suffer some awkwardness with an otherwise "amazing" and "fabulous" homeschooler than deal with the genuine petty malice of "normal" kids.
@36: I sort of understand your point, except if this guy is basically amazing and fabulous, I don't get why a couple of moments of social discomfort are throwing you this much.
I met a lot of shitty people during my time in school. I'd rather suffer some awkwardness with an otherwise "amazing" and "fabulous" homeschooler than deal with the genuine petty malice of "normal" kids.
42
In my neighborhood, the hippie lefty homeschoolers are almost annoying as the fundie ones. Their bratty teens rip up the sidewalks skateboarding by schoolday (guess that's part of the lesson plan) and scrawl graffiti on brick buildings at night. If they were African-American kids, the truant officer and/or cops would be called, but they're white upper-middle-class, so it's all right.
43
@33 et al. DaveM --- Is your degree in teaching?
Your vitriol on this issue really makes very little sense. You sound like a Fundamentalist in any number of religions. "Prove to me I am wrong to insist you follow my one way -- Prove it!"
PS: my PhD is in teaching, education and research
Your vitriol on this issue really makes very little sense. You sound like a Fundamentalist in any number of religions. "Prove to me I am wrong to insist you follow my one way -- Prove it!"
PS: my PhD is in teaching, education and research
44
@31 - seriously? You don't think LOCKING SOMEONE IN A BATHROOM counts as child abuse? What the hell?
45
@44: Um, not necessarily. Depends on the age of the child, since I think a very young one would hurt itself in a bathroom.
It's sort of like "time-out", except it actually tends to mean something. (As a child growing up, I never understood how "go to your room" was so bad -- that was where all my stuff was.)
You didn't grow up with old-school immigrant parents, did you? There was smacking and death threats abound.
That said, I think @31 is kind of off, since this story also includes starvation, denial of basic sanitation, etc., not just a locked bathroom.
It's sort of like "time-out", except it actually tends to mean something. (As a child growing up, I never understood how "go to your room" was so bad -- that was where all my stuff was.)
You didn't grow up with old-school immigrant parents, did you? There was smacking and death threats abound.
That said, I think @31 is kind of off, since this story also includes starvation, denial of basic sanitation, etc., not just a locked bathroom.
46
Eh, I knew a number of home schooled kids growing up. Yeah, they tended to have some awkward social moments, but so did a lot of kids that went to my school. Some were as well or better educated than those of us in a proper school, some were definitely less educated. Some had parents who made them socialize through activities like sports and clubs, some had parents who kept them very, very sheltered.
I know it's a lot easier to speak in assumptions and generalizations, but I really think that the efficacy of home schooling programs are best evaluated on a case-by-case basis, because even in my little corner of the world, I saw a broad diversity of approaches and outcomes. That's just my two cents.
I know it's a lot easier to speak in assumptions and generalizations, but I really think that the efficacy of home schooling programs are best evaluated on a case-by-case basis, because even in my little corner of the world, I saw a broad diversity of approaches and outcomes. That's just my two cents.
47
@41: The only emotion was humor.
@43: Nope, I do not hold a degree in education. Since you do I assume you will be enlightening me with rational, logical arguments why children SHOULD be home schooled.
I mean, you wouldn't stoop to making an argument from authority, right? *cough*
@43: Nope, I do not hold a degree in education. Since you do I assume you will be enlightening me with rational, logical arguments why children SHOULD be home schooled.
I mean, you wouldn't stoop to making an argument from authority, right? *cough*
48
@45 - I understand the idea of time-out, but this post isn't time out by any definition of the word. I don't think saying that the child MIGHT have been "bad" is a justification for the kind of torture that kid went through. I get what you're saying, and it makes perfect sense in a general context, but 31 was way out of line.
No, as a matter of fact, I didn't grow up with old-school immigrant parents. We're still in the place people emigrate from ;) and neither of my parents have ever made a death threat.
No, as a matter of fact, I didn't grow up with old-school immigrant parents. We're still in the place people emigrate from ;) and neither of my parents have ever made a death threat.
49
@48: Yes, otherwise, agreed. "Two sides to a story" in a case like this is pretty freakin' ridiculous.
51
@47 You have got to be kidding. Why would I attempt such a thing?
You obviously already know everything you need to know.
You obviously already know everything you need to know.
52
Pretty sure @31 was a joke, you guys.
Anyway I'm bored of this discussion. I'm retiring Grand Master Champion and declaring myself winner.
XOXO.
Anyway I'm bored of this discussion. I'm retiring Grand Master Champion and declaring myself winner.
XOXO.
53
I think there are extraordinary circumstances in which a child ought to be home schooled, but I think the parent ought to have to prove extraordinary circumstances. I also think there ought to be online schooling for children, with accredited schools who provide and grade curricula, including camera-based teacher interaction. There are too many experimental and new educational formats to make the generalization that all formalized education is bollocks. In a lot of cases, homeschooling parents will "tweak" the system for their kids, or else result to abuse because they really don't know jack about the educational or developmental process, and don't allow themselves or the children time to decompress.
I'm sorry, but if you jump from "public school isn't for us" straight to "no school setting is possible", you're a lazy parent. There are charter schools, schools that specialize in special-needs, experimental schools, etc, many of which are free or offer scholarships to the truly deserving.
I know someone who is starting to commit to homeschooling her daughter, and that kid is just straight-up doomed. The mother is stupid, and I can't begin to imagine her being helpful to the child past a third-grade curriculum.
I'm sorry, but if you jump from "public school isn't for us" straight to "no school setting is possible", you're a lazy parent. There are charter schools, schools that specialize in special-needs, experimental schools, etc, many of which are free or offer scholarships to the truly deserving.
I know someone who is starting to commit to homeschooling her daughter, and that kid is just straight-up doomed. The mother is stupid, and I can't begin to imagine her being helpful to the child past a third-grade curriculum.
54
@41 Well, the “homeschool moment” isn’t a moment of awkwardness, it’s like the “moment of truth”, where suddenly you get where this person is coming from. That they have some way of relating to the world and other people that is just “off”. How “off” it is has varied dramatically amongst the homeschoolers I’ve met – from the girl in college who I just did not like to be around because she was so awkward with others, to my “fabulous and amazing” friend (and another friend I have who was also homeschooled for only part of her schooling) who may not initially give off a “homeschooled” impression, but once you get to know them better you can see how the fact that they were homeschooled affects how they relate to others.
In my mind, I think there’s a debate about how “normal” of a life would I want my kids to have versus what kind of education I want them to have. There are trade-offs to each, and no “right” answer – while homeschooling can definitely offers major educational advantages (if done right), I think there’s a trade-off in that kids may learn less about navigating complex social situations and dealing with the “real world”. The full-time, K-12, homeschooled kids I’ve known are generally full-on nutso (IMO they may have gotten a great education, but their lack of social skills truly interferes with their ability to be successful). But, home-schooling only part of the time could give the best of both worlds, as long as the parents have the skills to offer a quality program (note: in the specific cases of my two part-time homeschool friends, I don’t think they got a better education by being at home, but it is possible).
In my mind, I think there’s a debate about how “normal” of a life would I want my kids to have versus what kind of education I want them to have. There are trade-offs to each, and no “right” answer – while homeschooling can definitely offers major educational advantages (if done right), I think there’s a trade-off in that kids may learn less about navigating complex social situations and dealing with the “real world”. The full-time, K-12, homeschooled kids I’ve known are generally full-on nutso (IMO they may have gotten a great education, but their lack of social skills truly interferes with their ability to be successful). But, home-schooling only part of the time could give the best of both worlds, as long as the parents have the skills to offer a quality program (note: in the specific cases of my two part-time homeschool friends, I don’t think they got a better education by being at home, but it is possible).
55
@47 - It's simple. Children are a vast and diverse group of people, just as adults are. Some of them are simply better suited to the differentiated environment of homeschooling, and some are not. Those who are, and who will perform better and thrive in a homeschool environment should not have that choice taken from them. Some children simply require a setting other than the traditional classroom in order to get the most from their education. Would you argue that those children should be hamstrung because some people aren't capable of understanding that children aren't all identical, don't all receive the same benefits from exactly the same experiences?
I think that is a bit irrational, myself.
I think that is a bit irrational, myself.
56
Sorry, Dave M., your comments @26 & @28 blew whatever credibility I thought you had. And your complete inability to grasp what @25 was saying disqualifies you from any serious discussion of the topic. You've made up your mind, and any amount of rational argument won't change it. See @43.
Bye.
Bye.
58
I know a woman who is home-schooling her children. she is bright and intelligent, the kids have impeccable manners, read, write and do math above their age levels, and can make their own clothes. However, they have never spoken to a non-Christian or met non-American who wasn't a missionary. They also live in a town with a black population of zero. How's that for rounded education?
59
@54: Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification.
I think a lot of parents are already PT homeschooling, in essence. Where I am, the public system doesn't necessarily always provide the extracurricular support that some kids need. My brother, who's 12, is quite bright in many areas, but suffers in math, so my mother's spent endless hours tutoring him herself and helping with his homework.
I *don't* think I'll ever go to the length of homeschooling, but I do wish we could sell the public system on its educational value rather than saying, "Well, it helps kids socialize." That's really a side effect, after all; hell, from what I remember, teachers spent a considerable chunk of time trying to *stop* us from socializing because it distracted us from actual learning.
I think a lot of parents are already PT homeschooling, in essence. Where I am, the public system doesn't necessarily always provide the extracurricular support that some kids need. My brother, who's 12, is quite bright in many areas, but suffers in math, so my mother's spent endless hours tutoring him herself and helping with his homework.
I *don't* think I'll ever go to the length of homeschooling, but I do wish we could sell the public system on its educational value rather than saying, "Well, it helps kids socialize." That's really a side effect, after all; hell, from what I remember, teachers spent a considerable chunk of time trying to *stop* us from socializing because it distracted us from actual learning.
60
@58: If their town has a black population of zero, how is sending them to a school, which presumably also has a black population of zero, going to change that?
61
Homeschooling is creepy. Most homeschoolers are religious fanatics of some sort, and their kids end up weird. Of course, this isn't always true. I have a friend who's homeschooling and she's not a religious freak, but her kid is definitely missing out on a shared cultural experience that every other kid in his generation is getting, and while he's a nice kid he's definitely a little odd.
62
Here is show "The Whitest Kids I Know" with there take on home schooling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNLHBj6E…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNLHBj6E…
64
lord, please tell me the police didn't send that child back home until the courts can resolve it.
65
Homeschooling shouldn't be illegal, but pulling kids out of mainstream school should automatically qualify a household for mandatory visits from a social worker. Homeschooling is being abused (that girl who was almost starved to death in Carnation was also being "homeschooled"), and all parents (especially the good ones) should be willing to endure extra scrutiny to protect children.
66
I would have given anything to have been home schooled. I hated public school and we didn't have money for private school. I wouldn't abolish the right to home school because it could be a lifeline for kids out there like me who were miserable in the public school system.
67
There's a really good blog called http://nolongerquivering.com/
that gives an insider's view of a fundamentalist Christian homeschooling community. There are Christian homeschool advocates who come right out and say that it's OK if the children don't get the best education, as long as they're being "protected" from the "evil" influences they'd be exposed to in school. These are basically Christianist madrassas.
Like @59 says, you can give your kids plenty of extracurricular enrichment without homeschooling. Model reading for pleasure; turn off the TV; take educational trips on the weekends; teach them to cook (math & science) or build (math, science & art) or do crafts (math, art, history.)
Any honest homeschooling advocate has to admit that there are an awful lot of homeschooling parents out there who are paranoid, fanatics of some stripe or another, or mentally ill. There need to be some enforceable standards on homeschooling, or else these kids are doomed.
that gives an insider's view of a fundamentalist Christian homeschooling community. There are Christian homeschool advocates who come right out and say that it's OK if the children don't get the best education, as long as they're being "protected" from the "evil" influences they'd be exposed to in school. These are basically Christianist madrassas.
Like @59 says, you can give your kids plenty of extracurricular enrichment without homeschooling. Model reading for pleasure; turn off the TV; take educational trips on the weekends; teach them to cook (math & science) or build (math, science & art) or do crafts (math, art, history.)
Any honest homeschooling advocate has to admit that there are an awful lot of homeschooling parents out there who are paranoid, fanatics of some stripe or another, or mentally ill. There need to be some enforceable standards on homeschooling, or else these kids are doomed.
70
I'm sure Dave M. honed his winning personality by being so well socialized in public school. I am sorry that he stepped away though because I was planning to answer his question.
Here is a link to an abstract of law review on the Social Science Research Network. From there you can download the entire document. Within the document you can read synopses of the following research which I think clearly demonstrate why someone should homeschool:
1. Homeschooled Students Perform Better Than Conventionally Educated Students On Standardized Academic Achievement Tests
2. Homeschooled Students Perform Well Regardless Of Race Or Socio-Economic Status
3. Colleges And Universities Have Recognized The Efficacy Of Homeschooling And Recruit Homeschooled Students
4. Homeschooled Students Perform Well In College
5. Homeschooling Offers Effective Educational Opportunities For Students With Learning Differences
6. Studies Demonstrate That Homeschooled Students Are Well Socialized
7. Homeschooled Students Are Active Leaders And Community Participants, As Well As Desirable Employees
It then goes on to show that the data indicates that state regulation of homechooling and parent credentials show no correlation to homeschooled child achievement.
Here is a link to an abstract of law review on the Social Science Research Network. From there you can download the entire document. Within the document you can read synopses of the following research which I think clearly demonstrate why someone should homeschool:
1. Homeschooled Students Perform Better Than Conventionally Educated Students On Standardized Academic Achievement Tests
2. Homeschooled Students Perform Well Regardless Of Race Or Socio-Economic Status
3. Colleges And Universities Have Recognized The Efficacy Of Homeschooling And Recruit Homeschooled Students
4. Homeschooled Students Perform Well In College
5. Homeschooling Offers Effective Educational Opportunities For Students With Learning Differences
6. Studies Demonstrate That Homeschooled Students Are Well Socialized
7. Homeschooled Students Are Active Leaders And Community Participants, As Well As Desirable Employees
It then goes on to show that the data indicates that state regulation of homechooling and parent credentials show no correlation to homeschooled child achievement.
72
I'm glad that a lawyer that represents the HomeSchool Association of California can spin whatever is in that paper into a convincing rationale for home school. I'm not going to read it but I'm sure her sources are less than unbiased and she is writing without conflict of interest. When the proponent is paid by who they are supporting credibility is difficult
73
Your home schooled snowflake does not better than that public school snowflake in their first year of college
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…
74
Um, did you read that article? It seems to be in favor of homeschooling. I'll copy the conclusions section below so that you can try again:
"Families who home school their children should not feel that the education they are providing is inferior to the traditional K-12 education of their neighborhood peers.
"Although not statistically significant, the average first-year GPAs, credits earned in the first year, ACT Composite test scores, and ACT English, Mathematics, Reading, and Science and Reasoning subtests for home school graduates were all higher than traditional high school graduates. Although the sample was relatively small, the ACT Composite test score results for home school graduates was an average of 22.8, which matched identically to the national average in 2000 for home school students (ACT 2000). The national average for all students in 2000 was 21, which was nearly identical to the 21.3 average for the traditional high school graduate.
"The academic performance analyses indicate that home school graduates are as ready for college as traditional high school graduates and that they perform as well on national college assessment tests as traditional high school graduates. The results of this study are also consistent with other studies on the academic performance of home school students compared to traditional high school graduates (Galloway 1995, Gray 1998, Jenkins 1998, Mexcur 1993). These results also suggest that a parent-guided K-12 education does not have a negative effect on a student’s college success.
"With the anticipated growth in the home school population, state policy makers, home school advocates, and the families who educate their children at home should also benefit from this study on the academic performance of home school graduates."
More...
"Families who home school their children should not feel that the education they are providing is inferior to the traditional K-12 education of their neighborhood peers.
"Although not statistically significant, the average first-year GPAs, credits earned in the first year, ACT Composite test scores, and ACT English, Mathematics, Reading, and Science and Reasoning subtests for home school graduates were all higher than traditional high school graduates. Although the sample was relatively small, the ACT Composite test score results for home school graduates was an average of 22.8, which matched identically to the national average in 2000 for home school students (ACT 2000). The national average for all students in 2000 was 21, which was nearly identical to the 21.3 average for the traditional high school graduate.
"The academic performance analyses indicate that home school graduates are as ready for college as traditional high school graduates and that they perform as well on national college assessment tests as traditional high school graduates. The results of this study are also consistent with other studies on the academic performance of home school students compared to traditional high school graduates (Galloway 1995, Gray 1998, Jenkins 1998, Mexcur 1993). These results also suggest that a parent-guided K-12 education does not have a negative effect on a student’s college success.
"With the anticipated growth in the home school population, state policy makers, home school advocates, and the families who educate their children at home should also benefit from this study on the academic performance of home school graduates."
75
I was raised by a total religious wingnut. My mom didn't want us to go to public school because she was afraid of the "evil influences". We weren't allowed to watch most Disney movies growing up, either. Because of the "witchcraft". My dad worked full time, and tried to convince her to let us go to public school, but to no avail. I didn't go to public school for the first time until I was 13. The worst part of this was that I have 5 brothers and sisters, and we lived out in rural Illinois, so I didn't have any friends I wasn't related to.
I compensated by reading a lot. Books were my friends. My dad encouraged this strongly, reading me Edgar Allan Poe and poetry. By the time I went to public school (after crying and screaming at my mom, and my parents divorce, when she no longer had the time to teach us), I had a college level reading ability, and a third grade math ability. I still don't remember the entirety of my multiplication tables.
It took me over a year to make friends in middle school. I sat at a lunch table, all to myself, reading Shakespeare while I ate.
Once I hit high school, I took AP English and French, but still struggled with math. Other than the math though, I felt like I was surrounded by leotarded people who lacked any sense or inquisitiveness. All they cared about was who they thought was cute or popular. I couldn't relate to those sorts of people. Still don't.
I dropped out of high school after my 10th grade year, got my GED, and went to trade school and college. I couldn't stand living with my mom anymore, and for the most part, high school still wasn't challenging enough for me, even with AP classes. I am majoring in psychology. I like surrounding myself with open, intellectual people. I may not have a lot of friends, but the ones I do have are absolutely amazing.
I guess the point I'm reaching here is that homeschooling benefited me in some ways (teaching me self-reliance and an appreciation for arts/languages), which stunting me socially and mathematically. I think this was actually mostly due to my mother's religious bent. She tried to keep my mind under a rock. But here I am, nearly 21 years old, exactly the kind of person she tried to "protect" me from: bisexual, non-monogamous, kinky, tattooed, pierced, and liberal. *irony*
More...
I compensated by reading a lot. Books were my friends. My dad encouraged this strongly, reading me Edgar Allan Poe and poetry. By the time I went to public school (after crying and screaming at my mom, and my parents divorce, when she no longer had the time to teach us), I had a college level reading ability, and a third grade math ability. I still don't remember the entirety of my multiplication tables.
It took me over a year to make friends in middle school. I sat at a lunch table, all to myself, reading Shakespeare while I ate.
Once I hit high school, I took AP English and French, but still struggled with math. Other than the math though, I felt like I was surrounded by leotarded people who lacked any sense or inquisitiveness. All they cared about was who they thought was cute or popular. I couldn't relate to those sorts of people. Still don't.
I dropped out of high school after my 10th grade year, got my GED, and went to trade school and college. I couldn't stand living with my mom anymore, and for the most part, high school still wasn't challenging enough for me, even with AP classes. I am majoring in psychology. I like surrounding myself with open, intellectual people. I may not have a lot of friends, but the ones I do have are absolutely amazing.
I guess the point I'm reaching here is that homeschooling benefited me in some ways (teaching me self-reliance and an appreciation for arts/languages), which stunting me socially and mathematically. I think this was actually mostly due to my mother's religious bent. She tried to keep my mind under a rock. But here I am, nearly 21 years old, exactly the kind of person she tried to "protect" me from: bisexual, non-monogamous, kinky, tattooed, pierced, and liberal. *irony*
77
@70 - "well socialized" is not the same thing as "can relate to people as well as non-homeschooled kids". What I would like to see studies on are how good homeschooled kids are at picking up on the sub-text of a situation, understanding the motivations of individuals in a complex environment, making friends, relating to people, etc.. Obviously, not all kids who go to public or private schools are going to be good at these things, but my hypothesis would be the average kid who is homeschooled for a significant period of time is not as good as the average kid who isn't. Just a hypothesis, but it would be really cool to see some research done along those lines...
78
Here's are some crazy, yet objectively true facts.
Public school can be great for some kids.
Homeschool can be great for some kids.
Public school can be awful for some kids.
Homeschool can be awful for some kids.
There is zero evidence that homeschooled kids fare worse socially or academically than public schooled kids.
According to the last census, less than one third of homeschoolers chose that education path due to religious beliefs.
Most homeschooling parents I know are Democrats, which is ironic, because Democrats are more likely than Republicans to be bigoted towards homeschoolers. I guess since Republicans save all their bigotry for homosexuals and minorities, they don't have enough left for homeschoolers.
Public school can be great for some kids.
Homeschool can be great for some kids.
Public school can be awful for some kids.
Homeschool can be awful for some kids.
There is zero evidence that homeschooled kids fare worse socially or academically than public schooled kids.
According to the last census, less than one third of homeschoolers chose that education path due to religious beliefs.
Most homeschooling parents I know are Democrats, which is ironic, because Democrats are more likely than Republicans to be bigoted towards homeschoolers. I guess since Republicans save all their bigotry for homosexuals and minorities, they don't have enough left for homeschoolers.
79
I wish to God my parents had homeschooled me. I grew up in a nasty, redneck town (one that's actually been written up in medical journals for the high rates of inbreeding) where the teachers were morons, the kids were dumb bullies, and I got taught religion in the classroom instead of facts. My dad was a school teacher and my mom a librarian, and they were from out of town, so they could actually read a damn book. A few younger friends of theirs started homeschooling years later, and my folks are still kicking themselves that they didn't think to do it because those kids have actually gotten a damn education.
I recognize the problems that so often come up with home schooling, but to my mind, this indicates a need for more regulation of the practice, not elimination. There are still instances where it's the best choice available.
I recognize the problems that so often come up with home schooling, but to my mind, this indicates a need for more regulation of the practice, not elimination. There are still instances where it's the best choice available.
80
No time to read all the comments -- got a headache, got a thing to get to. I didn't say that ALL homeschoolers were abusing their kids. I said God only knows how many abusers are isolating their kids and hiding the abuse from authorities by homeschooling or claiming to homeschool.
Some fine, fine people homeschool their childrens.
Some fine, fine people homeschool their childrens.
81
77 - in my experience, homeschool kids have a little more trouble relating to people their own age but are great with adults. That problem fades away as, you know, the people their own age *become* adults.
82
Julie, there isn't a lot of research out there. Most of it is done by homeschool proponents, but fortunately, they use lots of data by independent sources.
I'll quote this report:
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…
Susannah Sheffer (1995) talked with homeschooled
adolescent girls moving into adulthood. Sheffer began her
report by citing the work of Carol Gilligan and her colleagues
in the Harvard Project on Women’s Psychology and Girls’
Development who, lamenting, “have written about girls’ ‘loss
of voice’ and increasing distrust of their own perceptions.”
Sheffer suggested that the great difference in structure and
function—the way things work, the relationships people have,
expected behaviors, and the roles people play—between
homeschooling and conventional schooling may have explained why she found so many of these home-educated
adolescents to have not lost their voice and sense of identity.
Meredith, a 14-year-old in Sheffer’s study, said, “I was
worried that I would become a typical teenager if I went to
school” and “I think some people would have seen [school] as
my opportunity to ‘be like everybody else.’ But I didn’t want
to be like everybody else.” Sheffer concluded, “Throughout
this book the homeschooled girls I’ve interviewed have echoed these statements. They have talked about trusting themselves, pursuing their own goals, maintaining friendships even when their friends differ from them or disagree with them.”
Finally, these home-educated girls maintain their self-confidence as they pass into womanhood.
Sheffer’s findings regarding adolescent girls might explain
some of the successes that other researchers have found,
regarding young adults who were homeschooled. In a study
that categorized college students as either home, public or
private schooled, and examined their aptitude for achievement in college English, Galloway and Sutton (1995) found that homeschooled students demonstrated similar academic preparedness for college and similar academic achievement in college as students who had attended conventional schools.
In a similar vein, Oliveira, Watson and Sutton (1994) found
that home-educated college students had a slightly higher
overall mean critical thinking score than did students from
public schools, Christian schools, and ACE [private] schools
but the differences were not statistically significant.
More...
I'll quote this report:
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…
Susannah Sheffer (1995) talked with homeschooled
adolescent girls moving into adulthood. Sheffer began her
report by citing the work of Carol Gilligan and her colleagues
in the Harvard Project on Women’s Psychology and Girls’
Development who, lamenting, “have written about girls’ ‘loss
of voice’ and increasing distrust of their own perceptions.”
Sheffer suggested that the great difference in structure and
function—the way things work, the relationships people have,
expected behaviors, and the roles people play—between
homeschooling and conventional schooling may have explained why she found so many of these home-educated
adolescents to have not lost their voice and sense of identity.
Meredith, a 14-year-old in Sheffer’s study, said, “I was
worried that I would become a typical teenager if I went to
school” and “I think some people would have seen [school] as
my opportunity to ‘be like everybody else.’ But I didn’t want
to be like everybody else.” Sheffer concluded, “Throughout
this book the homeschooled girls I’ve interviewed have echoed these statements. They have talked about trusting themselves, pursuing their own goals, maintaining friendships even when their friends differ from them or disagree with them.”
Finally, these home-educated girls maintain their self-confidence as they pass into womanhood.
Sheffer’s findings regarding adolescent girls might explain
some of the successes that other researchers have found,
regarding young adults who were homeschooled. In a study
that categorized college students as either home, public or
private schooled, and examined their aptitude for achievement in college English, Galloway and Sutton (1995) found that homeschooled students demonstrated similar academic preparedness for college and similar academic achievement in college as students who had attended conventional schools.
In a similar vein, Oliveira, Watson and Sutton (1994) found
that home-educated college students had a slightly higher
overall mean critical thinking score than did students from
public schools, Christian schools, and ACE [private] schools
but the differences were not statistically significant.
83
@81 That's it exactly. I dislike people my own age, for the most part. They have totally different priorities than me. I always date older men. Most of my friends are older. Homeschooling made me more mature in a lot of ways, so I think that would probably give people the impression that I am anti-social because I don't relate to people my own age.
84
Thanks for the clarification, Dan. It's sad that what is certainly a legitimate concern can inspire the knee-jerk posts by some thoughtless, authoritarian bigots to actually suggest that homeschooling should be illegal.
85
Personally, I think public school is bad for children. I think this for a laundry list of reasons that are - in this debate anyway - unimportant.
What is important is that I am not interested in taking away your right to send your children to public school. I voted for the public school levies and understand how important it is to have public education available. However, there are people - including commenters above - that are interested in taking away my right to educate my children at home.
What is important is that I am not interested in taking away your right to send your children to public school. I voted for the public school levies and understand how important it is to have public education available. However, there are people - including commenters above - that are interested in taking away my right to educate my children at home.
86
@ 60 My bad, I should have clarified that I knew them before they moved from Seattle because it was "too urban" even though they lived in Laurelhurst. They now live in a small town northof Spokane.
87
LJM: I think you need to look the word "bigot" up in the dictionary. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
88
One of the curious aspects of this discussion, whenever it breaks out, is the notion that parents, themselves the product of compulsory schooling, are not qualified to raise and teach their own children. And the solution to this remarkable failure of compulsory schooling is...more compulsory schooling!
Dave M, if you check back, here's my answer for you: I don't have any reason anyone else *should* home- , un-, or non-school their kids, but I do have reasons that we made that choice, and I believe there have been benefits for our family.
Here's one example: My son learned to read later than he would have been expected to in school. ("*GASP* Homeschooling BAD!") No, we didn't neglect teaching him to read; he wasn't ready. Rather than force it and turn it into a struggle, we continued to read interesting books to/with him, helped him when he asked, and let him learn at his own pace. He picked it up just fine. (Not that we weren't sometimes anxious.) At 10, he wasn't a fluent reader. By 12, his reading was no different than his peers'. If you observed him reading now, at 16, it wouldn't occur to you that he was atypical. If he'd been in school from 6 to 11, they'd have called him "learning disabled," prodded, processed, and forced him to perform, for no other reason than to keep to an arbitrary schedule. I believe he benefited from the freedom to follow his brain's schedule rather than the government's.
Standard non-schooler disclaimers: we are non-molesting, non-conservative, and non-theistic. We don't isolate our son. He has friends locally and around the country, of various ages, religions, and ethnicities. We think our job is to make his world as big as we can, and we don't think confining him in school is the best way to do that.
More...
Dave M, if you check back, here's my answer for you: I don't have any reason anyone else *should* home- , un-, or non-school their kids, but I do have reasons that we made that choice, and I believe there have been benefits for our family.
Here's one example: My son learned to read later than he would have been expected to in school. ("*GASP* Homeschooling BAD!") No, we didn't neglect teaching him to read; he wasn't ready. Rather than force it and turn it into a struggle, we continued to read interesting books to/with him, helped him when he asked, and let him learn at his own pace. He picked it up just fine. (Not that we weren't sometimes anxious.) At 10, he wasn't a fluent reader. By 12, his reading was no different than his peers'. If you observed him reading now, at 16, it wouldn't occur to you that he was atypical. If he'd been in school from 6 to 11, they'd have called him "learning disabled," prodded, processed, and forced him to perform, for no other reason than to keep to an arbitrary schedule. I believe he benefited from the freedom to follow his brain's schedule rather than the government's.
Standard non-schooler disclaimers: we are non-molesting, non-conservative, and non-theistic. We don't isolate our son. He has friends locally and around the country, of various ages, religions, and ethnicities. We think our job is to make his world as big as we can, and we don't think confining him in school is the best way to do that.
89
Just to add my useless two cents, I went to public school, and wish both now and then I had been homeschooled. I was bullied so badly I tried to end my life twice. My Mum was too busy being abused by my stepfather to care; my Dad would have been considered a kidnapper if he'd taken action (Mum got full custody), and ironically, my school only cared about its "best anti bullying policy" award, i.e. I was to be swept under the carpet and pretend I wasn't a bag of bones being tortured every day.
I know two homeschooled people. They're both a bit... odd. I think that would have been me as well. But I'd have been an odd person that isn't attending therapy sessions for the rest of their foreseeable life.
I know two homeschooled people. They're both a bit... odd. I think that would have been me as well. But I'd have been an odd person that isn't attending therapy sessions for the rest of their foreseeable life.
90
Fifty-Two-Eighty: I think you're half-right. According to Merriam-Webster:
"bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"
Except, in this case, it's a group of people who've made personal choices. I think someone who hates all Lutherans is a bigot. Someone who thinks that Democrats are evil is a bigot. Someone who thinks ill anyone who's converted to Judaism is a bigot.
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "bigotry" as:
"unwilling to grant other people social rights or to accept other viewpoints"
There are those here who are unwilling to grant other people the right to choose the form of education for their children.
Still, I take your point that it can be a confusing and distracting (and volatile) term. It's probably best for me to stick with "prejudiced" or something like that.
"bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"
Except, in this case, it's a group of people who've made personal choices. I think someone who hates all Lutherans is a bigot. Someone who thinks that Democrats are evil is a bigot. Someone who thinks ill anyone who's converted to Judaism is a bigot.
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "bigotry" as:
"unwilling to grant other people social rights or to accept other viewpoints"
There are those here who are unwilling to grant other people the right to choose the form of education for their children.
Still, I take your point that it can be a confusing and distracting (and volatile) term. It's probably best for me to stick with "prejudiced" or something like that.
91
One of the curious aspects of this discussion, whenever it breaks out, is the notion that parents, themselves the product of compulsory schooling, are not qualified to raise and teach their own children. And the solution to this remarkable failure of compulsory schooling is...more compulsory schooling!
It's not curious at all. K-12 schooling does not train students to be teachers.
It's not curious at all. K-12 schooling does not train students to be teachers.
92
@85
...and I think your version of education is to embrace ignorance and proclaim it a virtue.
Perhaps you should go back to "Home College" and get that degree in vcr repair.
...and I think your version of education is to embrace ignorance and proclaim it a virtue.
Perhaps you should go back to "Home College" and get that degree in vcr repair.
93
@Dingo: I didn't say it did, or should.
In any case, teachers are trained mostly in "classroom management", which is a polite way of saying "getting a large group of children to do what you want when you want them to." Without the large group, those skills are moot.
In any case, teachers are trained mostly in "classroom management", which is a polite way of saying "getting a large group of children to do what you want when you want them to." Without the large group, those skills are moot.
94
I'm not the biggest fan of this method for proving a point, but, if you want child abuse, there's a horrible recent example from Santa Fe, New Mexico, which may result in the amputation of both of a toddlers legs. Details of which are available at the Santa Fe New Mexican's website.
95
I was homeschooled for third and fourth grade before skipping fifth and plunging into the murky and foul-smelling world of middle school. My parents helped me learn at home since due to my, shall I say, atypical personality/mentality, public school was not working out for me at all. It worked for me, and I think that homeschooling in place of elementary school can definitely help most children who have trouble fitting in.
However, I think that high school is one of those things that almost everyone will benefit from, and it's probably best to get into the public school system sometime during middle school so as to reduce the transition shock at the beginning of freshman year. Otherwise you'll probably end up even more antisocial than you would have been had you ground through the full K-8 in public school.
However, I think that high school is one of those things that almost everyone will benefit from, and it's probably best to get into the public school system sometime during middle school so as to reduce the transition shock at the beginning of freshman year. Otherwise you'll probably end up even more antisocial than you would have been had you ground through the full K-8 in public school.
96
Senor Guy, your social skills seem to be lacking.
But do you really believe that if one rejects the public school dynamic that one is "embracing ignorance?" What did Alex F. say to imply he was against information and learning? Anything?
Isn't that like saying someone who rejects one method for achieving something, must, therefore, not want to achieve it?
But do you really believe that if one rejects the public school dynamic that one is "embracing ignorance?" What did Alex F. say to imply he was against information and learning? Anything?
Isn't that like saying someone who rejects one method for achieving something, must, therefore, not want to achieve it?
97
@93: Maybe, maybe not. But simple ability in high school level subjects doesn't translate into an ability to teach, or to sufficient knowledge to teach. That's why we require teachers to be trained in paedagogical methods as well as to demonstrate their knowledge in their chosen field. Ideally, that is.
98
@97, but certainly the fact that homeschooled kids are doing no worse in college than public schooled kids indicates that homeschooling parents are on the right track? If parents' inability to teach was actually an issue, that would be reflected in the performance of freshmen college students who were homeschooled. So far, no problem.
99
Possibly, but do we even know what percentage of homeschooled vs. formally educated kids go on to university? And we've also heard from several people here that their social adjustment was negatively impacted by being homeschooled, and I've certainly observed that myself with my friend's kids.
100
@93 -- That is NOT what most teacher preparation programs emphasize. In fact the opposite is true. Most new teachers report a lack of sufficient classroom management training as one of the reasons they leave the field.
And FWIW, classroom management entails giving directions, implementing curricula, collaborating with other education professionals (aides, therapists, teachers), ensuring safety and making certain materials are adequate etc.
Working in groups is hardly a horrible skill to learn and having an adult learn how to lead a group is not totalitarian.
And FWIW, classroom management entails giving directions, implementing curricula, collaborating with other education professionals (aides, therapists, teachers), ensuring safety and making certain materials are adequate etc.
Working in groups is hardly a horrible skill to learn and having an adult learn how to lead a group is not totalitarian.
101
@99: npage 148 put up an informative link at post #73 (which seemed to contradict whatever point he was trying to make).
And here are some more stats regarding college:
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…
It's important to remember that there are plenty of people who would say that their social adjustment was negatively impacted by going to public school. That doesn't mean that public school isn't a good idea. But there is zero evidence which suggests homeschooled kids do worse than public schooled kids when it comes to academics or social interactions.
And here are some more stats regarding college:
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…
It's important to remember that there are plenty of people who would say that their social adjustment was negatively impacted by going to public school. That doesn't mean that public school isn't a good idea. But there is zero evidence which suggests homeschooled kids do worse than public schooled kids when it comes to academics or social interactions.
103
It may be true that most people don't have the skills to home school their kids, but that doesn't mean ALL people don't have those skills. Should you outlaw something because some people are bad at it? I think a better solution would be to require that the parents have some sort of credentials, like a graduate degree or something. My parents both have PhDs and very wide interests; they're definitely more qualified than some of the teachers I had at public school. We considered homeschooling after it was clear that my 6th grade teacher knew less math than me, but ended up successfully finding a private school instead. The main reason my parents preferred to find me a school was so that I'd have some sort of social life; not for any worries about them being able to teach the academics. If we hadn't lived in an area where we could find a private school, that would have been a perfectly good reason for home schooling.
I'd be willing to agree that a significant portion of homeschooling parents do it for reasons I wouldn't approve of, but I don't necessarily think that means it should be outlawed completely. I would appreciate some more oversight, though, to avoid situations like this. That way, parents who ARE qualified could show some official person that they are, in fact, teaching the kids, and parents who are crazy and stupid would get noticed.
I'd be willing to agree that a significant portion of homeschooling parents do it for reasons I wouldn't approve of, but I don't necessarily think that means it should be outlawed completely. I would appreciate some more oversight, though, to avoid situations like this. That way, parents who ARE qualified could show some official person that they are, in fact, teaching the kids, and parents who are crazy and stupid would get noticed.
104
I wish David M was still here so we could talk more about his intro to logic or rhetoric class (they covered appeal to authority but I guess he was sleeping during ad hominem and others). Rational! Logic! No Emotional Bullshit! More virile maturity through traversing obstacles. wocka wocka.
Can I really get a degree in VCR repair from Home College?! I swear it's the next vinyl.
It's kind of interesting how many commentors on this post are so invested in proper "socializing." It's similiar to the conservative talking point regarding the relationship of education to democratization. I think the geographic segregation or lack of diversity (race/ethnic/economic/etc) in most areas throughout this country allow for a very limited group to socialize with. And I don't know about your life but the social dynamics of high school were nothing like college which were nothing like work which is not like my personal life.
Oh my gosh! They're awkward. What do we do! Maybe feel a little less insecure about how they illuminate that your culture is not Truth and or Good but really just your culture.
Can I really get a degree in VCR repair from Home College?! I swear it's the next vinyl.
It's kind of interesting how many commentors on this post are so invested in proper "socializing." It's similiar to the conservative talking point regarding the relationship of education to democratization. I think the geographic segregation or lack of diversity (race/ethnic/economic/etc) in most areas throughout this country allow for a very limited group to socialize with. And I don't know about your life but the social dynamics of high school were nothing like college which were nothing like work which is not like my personal life.
Oh my gosh! They're awkward. What do we do! Maybe feel a little less insecure about how they illuminate that your culture is not Truth and or Good but really just your culture.
105
Also, notice that its possible to homeschool a kid for a year or two while having them go to school for the other 10 years. Then they get plenty of experience with dealing with a system, etc, but also experience with a different type of school.
The weird thing is , I think that in most cases homeschooling is a bad idea. But you guys are being so over the top angry about it that I can't agree with you at all. There ARE situations where homeschooling makes sense, and it would be stupid to outlaw it in all cases.
The weird thing is , I think that in most cases homeschooling is a bad idea. But you guys are being so over the top angry about it that I can't agree with you at all. There ARE situations where homeschooling makes sense, and it would be stupid to outlaw it in all cases.
106
@pox
If you can't tell me that you've found some way to light a fire under your child so that he wants to learn, please encourage your child to enter into a career field in which he can loiter as long as he'd like until he feels like doing his job. I spent a shitty weekend in a hotel in the backass end of North Dakota because it snowed on Christmas and the plowmen decided that "plowing would take too much time away from the important things, like family." I shouldn't complain, as it only took a day's ranting to convince the local electrician to come out to the hotel to try to fix the furnace after it shut down on Christmas Eve and left us all freezing in -30F weather from 12AM Christmas Day until 12PM December 26th. Yeah, my introduction to the results of "proper homeschooling" could have left me dead in the middle of a field thousands of miles away from home, whereas the "mainstream, sinful/slacker" public school-bred workers in North Dakota's cities had their roads plowed as soon as the sun came up on Boxing Day. Homeschooling may not be the worst thing in the world, but the results of homeschooling *here* has left me with "possible permanent damage" in my toes and sheets of flesh peeled from my feet, all because some douchebag parents decided that it was OK for their kids to learn at their own pace, and the kids learned that it was OK to do *everything* at their own pace. Thank God that I didn't meet a doctor who liked to do everything at "his own pace", he probably would have shown up on new Year's Day with a bonesaw and some charming wooden feet. 8-)
If you can't tell me that you've found some way to light a fire under your child so that he wants to learn, please encourage your child to enter into a career field in which he can loiter as long as he'd like until he feels like doing his job. I spent a shitty weekend in a hotel in the backass end of North Dakota because it snowed on Christmas and the plowmen decided that "plowing would take too much time away from the important things, like family." I shouldn't complain, as it only took a day's ranting to convince the local electrician to come out to the hotel to try to fix the furnace after it shut down on Christmas Eve and left us all freezing in -30F weather from 12AM Christmas Day until 12PM December 26th. Yeah, my introduction to the results of "proper homeschooling" could have left me dead in the middle of a field thousands of miles away from home, whereas the "mainstream, sinful/slacker" public school-bred workers in North Dakota's cities had their roads plowed as soon as the sun came up on Boxing Day. Homeschooling may not be the worst thing in the world, but the results of homeschooling *here* has left me with "possible permanent damage" in my toes and sheets of flesh peeled from my feet, all because some douchebag parents decided that it was OK for their kids to learn at their own pace, and the kids learned that it was OK to do *everything* at their own pace. Thank God that I didn't meet a doctor who liked to do everything at "his own pace", he probably would have shown up on new Year's Day with a bonesaw and some charming wooden feet. 8-)
107
After I read the article about this case at the Washington Post, I found a link to this similar story: A southern Texas couple accused of locking the woman's 12-year-old daughter in a closet for about a year except to attend school..." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…). This second girl was also malnourished, also had to use a bucket as a toilet, also slept on a blanket on the floor. The fact that she went to school didn't change that.
I'm as disturbed as anyone with the way that homeschooling can make it easier for parents to hide signs of abuse, but it's clear that just making sure a child is in public every weekday isn't the key to preventing abuse.
One of these girls went to school, one didn't. Both were abused in the same way. Both, fortunately, managed to get out and get help. And there are certainly other children being abused, both ones who go to school and ones who don't, who haven't escaped from the abuse yet. It's a mistake to make homeschooling the central issue here.
I'm as disturbed as anyone with the way that homeschooling can make it easier for parents to hide signs of abuse, but it's clear that just making sure a child is in public every weekday isn't the key to preventing abuse.
One of these girls went to school, one didn't. Both were abused in the same way. Both, fortunately, managed to get out and get help. And there are certainly other children being abused, both ones who go to school and ones who don't, who haven't escaped from the abuse yet. It's a mistake to make homeschooling the central issue here.
108
Whoops, forgot that my link would be stripped out. Google "alfredo ines" for articles on the Texas case.
109
Well, that link certainly seems to prove the point that the overwhelming majority of homeschoolers are religious nutjobs.
110
Dingo, what proves that point? I'm a secularist, but having a strong faith and going to church on Sundays hardly qualifies one as a "religious nutjob."
111
speaking as a child who was thoroughly miserable in the public school system, I also know that I never would have learned to function in society if the structure of school hadn't forced me to. Instead of being a successful functioning adult with some bad memories of middle school, I could have been coddled and homeschooled and never learned to interact with other people at all. Sometimes the lessons are in what happens when the teaching isn't happening, when your parents aren't hovering right there to fight your battles for you. School lets kids be independent and figure shit out. They can't do that with mommy and daddy there 24/7. Sorry.
112
@101 the point i was making is that homeschooling has no benfit as measured by first year gpa or standardized tests. All that propornets say they can do a better job than public school but this show otherwise. If all these parents are such great teachers how come the students can't out perform the public school heathens.
113
#110: possibly not, if you don't think that all people sufficiently religious to "have strong faith" and regularly attend church are religious nutjobs, but placing "a strong emphasis on orthodox and conservative biblical doctrine" certainly does.
114
@112, it doesn't matter if it has a benefit. What matters is that it's an educational choice which doesn't diminish academic or social achievement (in fact your link said there was slight improvement in academic achievement). Since there's no evidence that there are no negative effects, what's the problem with it?
Are there kids who hate it? Sure. Are there kids who hate public school? Sure. Are there kids from both groups who enjoy their respective experiences? Of course. Again, what's the problem with homeschooling?
Are there kids who hate it? Sure. Are there kids who hate public school? Sure. Are there kids from both groups who enjoy their respective experiences? Of course. Again, what's the problem with homeschooling?
115
Damnation. Should have read, "Since there's no evidence that there are any negative effects, what's the problem with it?"
116
Dingo, I will concede your "religious nutjob" point. But all the evidence points to a steadily increasing percentage of secularists and moderates among homeschoolers.
That said, most homeschoolers I know are Democrats and rather secular, though I have met and interacted regularly with a few "nutjobs," even had pleasant, friendly conversations about faith with them. Their kids played nicely with mine and they always had a good time together.
Most "religious nutjobs," however, send their kids to public and private schools. So, it's really nothing to do with homeschooling itself. It's all about the people doing the homeschooling.
The most important fact is that there is no evidence that homeschooling provides an inherently worse education than public schooling. Individuals who do a poor job in ensuring the education of their children can be found everywhere.
That said, most homeschoolers I know are Democrats and rather secular, though I have met and interacted regularly with a few "nutjobs," even had pleasant, friendly conversations about faith with them. Their kids played nicely with mine and they always had a good time together.
Most "religious nutjobs," however, send their kids to public and private schools. So, it's really nothing to do with homeschooling itself. It's all about the people doing the homeschooling.
The most important fact is that there is no evidence that homeschooling provides an inherently worse education than public schooling. Individuals who do a poor job in ensuring the education of their children can be found everywhere.
117
Holy crap everyone, did you not read @106?? Homeschooling is a direct cause of frostbite! Fucking hell, I had no idea. Well, I've changed my mind. Homeschooling = bad. Very, very bad.
119
Dingo, we can agree wholeheartedly that religious nutjobs are weird. Wherever they are and however they're educating their children, they are weird.
Homeschooling secularists, like my friends and me, are not weird. We are merely different. And fun at parties.
Homeschooling secularists, like my friends and me, are not weird. We are merely different. And fun at parties.
120
@112. The study stated there was a non-statistically significant increase which is equivalent to saying there is NO increase. People mention non-significant changes in studies when they are unable to show significance and are frustrated about it.
The point I'm making is that the majority of the reason I hear that people home school for is to improve their kids education which is junk. Most of the ones I know were all socially stunted until they got into a public school setting. So while their academic performance is not worse or better their social skills are worse. They use the guise of providing a better education to cover their real and less acceptable reasons to homeschool. Sure some kids like it and some kids hate it just like public school but as others have said, you learn more than the subjects at school.
The point I'm making is that the majority of the reason I hear that people home school for is to improve their kids education which is junk. Most of the ones I know were all socially stunted until they got into a public school setting. So while their academic performance is not worse or better their social skills are worse. They use the guise of providing a better education to cover their real and less acceptable reasons to homeschool. Sure some kids like it and some kids hate it just like public school but as others have said, you learn more than the subjects at school.
121
No, I meant homeschooling is weird. (Religious nutjobs too, obviously). I wholeheartedly agree with 120 that homeschooled kids' social skills are worse and that most homeschoolers use the guise of providing a better education to cover their real and less acceptable reasons for homeschooling. To be healthy, parents and kids need to spend time apart, and kids need to learn to socialize with their peers in the types of situations they will be encountering in real life, ie working together in diverse groups of people with different beliefs and cultures; working on a schedule; learning in a structured environment; following instructions from someone other than their mother; concentrating and working when they'd rather be playing; and so on.
122
@89: "I was bullied so badly I tried to end my life twice."
Whenever I hear people talk about the wonderful "social" benefits of public school, I wonder if they were the bullies making life miserable for the other kids. Yeah, those kids at Columbine High School sure took some great social skills to their graves!
It's amazing to me that, in the adult workplace, there is an acknowledgment that harassing another person is illegal, cruel and unacceptable. There are numerous programs and laws to prevent workplace harassment even though the harassed adult could simply quit his or her job and go elsewhere. Yet, when an underage student harasses another underage student who is basically captive prey, society sees this as a rite of passage, as some kind of learning experience.
Good luck to you, @89. Hope life gets better.
Whenever I hear people talk about the wonderful "social" benefits of public school, I wonder if they were the bullies making life miserable for the other kids. Yeah, those kids at Columbine High School sure took some great social skills to their graves!
It's amazing to me that, in the adult workplace, there is an acknowledgment that harassing another person is illegal, cruel and unacceptable. There are numerous programs and laws to prevent workplace harassment even though the harassed adult could simply quit his or her job and go elsewhere. Yet, when an underage student harasses another underage student who is basically captive prey, society sees this as a rite of passage, as some kind of learning experience.
Good luck to you, @89. Hope life gets better.
123
By the way, here's another story about some great straight parents:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nati…
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nati…
124
Home schooling is not the abuser here, this girl's loser father is! (and possibly her mother - notice how she got less press) Why are you all up in arms over home schooling? Yes, yes, a way for the parents to isolate the child. It's also sometimes the only relief when you're kids getting harassed into the ground at school, or you live in a bible-land where the coach thinks it's okay to call fourteen year old boys faggots and English teachers get to assign bible verses as reading material. Did you think about any of that?
125
@122: Middle school's really the worst. People would mess with me at lunch, so I'd go talk to one of the two cafeteria supervisors. He'd always be busy, and he'd tell me to talk to the other supervisor. Guess what the other supervisor would say?
126
@122 What happens when you get into a real work environment and it's not a school bully but you boss that is degrading you for being a POS that can't get your work done? It's something people need to learn, how to deal with assholes. The kids that snapped in high school would have snapped at some point in their lives. If it wasn't high school it would have been at work, at the gym, their home.
127
@126, Did you read all of what #122 said? When an adult is being harassed at work, there are a multitude of options: Human Resources, litigation, government agencies and/or quitting the job. Obviously the adult victim shouldn't have to result to the latter, but it's an option. If enough people quit on a boss, the boss and/or the company might eventually get the message. When a sixth-grader is being harassed by a pack of sixth-grade psychos, she's told that this is "character building" and will be arrested for truancy if she quits attending school. Why do we protect adults from peer harassment but not children?
128
#120: There is zero evidence to support your repeated assertion that homeschooled kids do worse socially than public schooled kids. Anti-homeschoolers repeat this myth in exactly the same way creationists repeat "there are no transitional fossils."
You can believe that homeschoolers have fewer social skills than public schoolers, but it's purely a faith-based argument.
You can believe that homeschoolers have fewer social skills than public schoolers, but it's purely a faith-based argument.
129
@121, there are a lot of good reasons to send your kids to public school. There are a lot of good reasons not to send your kids to public school. All of those reasons are personal and subjective. To pretend that one method is THE method for all kids is to believe that all kids are the same. But kids are individuals and individuals learn things in different ways.
And, like I said above, you can keep repeating that homeschoolers do worse socially, but in the complete absence of data to demonstrate this (while in the face of some data which contradicts it: http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…), it's not a reasonable or intellectually honest position to take.
And, like I said above, you can keep repeating that homeschoolers do worse socially, but in the complete absence of data to demonstrate this (while in the face of some data which contradicts it: http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/eri…), it's not a reasonable or intellectually honest position to take.
130
It's not at all a faith-based judgement. I have a close friend who homeschools and her kid lacks the social skills that other kids have because she's not in close contact with other kids all the time like the children who go to school are, and when she is she's in contact with other homeschooled kids.
131
@126, Current gave a fine response to what really is nonsense. Your boss isn't going to physically abuse you and steal your lunch money. The idea that kids NEED to be forced to spend time with other kids who will physically and emotionally abuse them while they're also forced to learn a variety of things they have no interest in and will have no use for, is simply nonsense.
132
130, that's a terrible argument. You can't reasonably say that because you've met a few homeschoolers who lack social skills that homeschooling is the cause.
I was a teacher for years and I've met hundreds of public schooled kids who had almost no social skills at all. But it would be childish of me to suggest that it's because of public school that these kids were as they were.
If you were in a freshman sociology course and wrote a paper to defend the argument that homeschooling is inherently worse for kids socially than public school, and then went on to defend your point by saying, "I know these homeschooled kids and they weren't quite right and I know this guy who knows some homeschooled kids and he felt the same way," what kind of a grade would you deserve?
Your thinking on this subject is identical to that of people who are prejudiced against other groups of people. You use anecdotal evidence of the behavior of individuals to make sweeping generalizations of entire groups of people you know nothing about.
I was a teacher for years and I've met hundreds of public schooled kids who had almost no social skills at all. But it would be childish of me to suggest that it's because of public school that these kids were as they were.
If you were in a freshman sociology course and wrote a paper to defend the argument that homeschooling is inherently worse for kids socially than public school, and then went on to defend your point by saying, "I know these homeschooled kids and they weren't quite right and I know this guy who knows some homeschooled kids and he felt the same way," what kind of a grade would you deserve?
Your thinking on this subject is identical to that of people who are prejudiced against other groups of people. You use anecdotal evidence of the behavior of individuals to make sweeping generalizations of entire groups of people you know nothing about.
133
It stands to reason that a kid who doesn't spend his time around his peers in a shared cultural situation won't have the same cultural references as his peers, and will therefore not fit with them. It's not even the same as kids from foreign countries entering a new school system, because at least, like their peers, they've BEEN TO SCHOOL. I see this first hand in my friend's kid, who lacks most of the shared experience of her peers, doesn't know how to interact like other kids interact, and doesn't share other kids' interests because she doesn't get to participate in their shared culture.
But as you say, often it's not just because they're homeschooled that they're socially weird. It's because they're homeschooled because their parents are religious nutjobs.
But as you say, often it's not just because they're homeschooled that they're socially weird. It's because they're homeschooled because their parents are religious nutjobs.
134
The way we educate our kids is very personal. It's as personal as how we feed them, how we talk to them, how we teach them discipline and religion.
If this thread was about how some people were raising their kids to believe in Native American mythology or maybe they had converted to Islam, or they were devout Lutherans, I wonder what the reaction would be to posters who said, "Yeah, I grew up with some Muslims and they were really angry all the time, so that's a really irresponsible spiritual choice they've made." Or, "My best friend is raising her kids to believe in sun gods and other aboriginal origin myths and they don't seem to know how to have a conversation with me, so those beliefs obviously don't work."
What would we think of these arguments? They are, quite obviously, silly. They're ignorant and judgmental. Why is it so hard for people to admit they don't know what makes people do the things they do?
I was a behavior specialist for years working with emotionally disturbed kids and adolescents, and the best psychiatrist I ever worked with was a doctor who, when asked to explain certain behaviors, would regularly say, "I don't know." This profoundly experienced and learned woman wouldn't pretend to know things she couldn't justify with evidence because she knew that such thinking wouldn't help our clients. Admitted ignorance was our first step in finding things out.
One attribute I find in common at places like this and at places like Free Republic (which, like Pete Townsend, I only visit for research purposes), is this baseless certainty about who people are and why they do the things they do. That reflex is the beginning and end of prejudice and it's never based in an appreciation for the power of objective reality.
But lots of people have convinced themselves that they know what's best for kids (as if all kids were one person), and what kind of education works best (as if all kids learned the same way), even if they don't have kids and haven't been in a school in years.
This problem doesn't appear so much with other subjects. People who've never looked under the hood of a car don't tend to pretend they know about transmissions.
But when it comes to kids, we all know. The people I worked with who actually helped kids who needed it most, who spent years turning destroyed lives around, they were the first ones to say they didn't know. Because they didn't. I don't. And neither do you. We just do our best with the people we love most. And to pretend that you know what's wrong with people you've never met, who may or may not be perfectly happy and responsible and loving, is to stoop to the arrogance and willful ignorance one finds on sites like Free Republic.
More...
If this thread was about how some people were raising their kids to believe in Native American mythology or maybe they had converted to Islam, or they were devout Lutherans, I wonder what the reaction would be to posters who said, "Yeah, I grew up with some Muslims and they were really angry all the time, so that's a really irresponsible spiritual choice they've made." Or, "My best friend is raising her kids to believe in sun gods and other aboriginal origin myths and they don't seem to know how to have a conversation with me, so those beliefs obviously don't work."
What would we think of these arguments? They are, quite obviously, silly. They're ignorant and judgmental. Why is it so hard for people to admit they don't know what makes people do the things they do?
I was a behavior specialist for years working with emotionally disturbed kids and adolescents, and the best psychiatrist I ever worked with was a doctor who, when asked to explain certain behaviors, would regularly say, "I don't know." This profoundly experienced and learned woman wouldn't pretend to know things she couldn't justify with evidence because she knew that such thinking wouldn't help our clients. Admitted ignorance was our first step in finding things out.
One attribute I find in common at places like this and at places like Free Republic (which, like Pete Townsend, I only visit for research purposes), is this baseless certainty about who people are and why they do the things they do. That reflex is the beginning and end of prejudice and it's never based in an appreciation for the power of objective reality.
But lots of people have convinced themselves that they know what's best for kids (as if all kids were one person), and what kind of education works best (as if all kids learned the same way), even if they don't have kids and haven't been in a school in years.
This problem doesn't appear so much with other subjects. People who've never looked under the hood of a car don't tend to pretend they know about transmissions.
But when it comes to kids, we all know. The people I worked with who actually helped kids who needed it most, who spent years turning destroyed lives around, they were the first ones to say they didn't know. Because they didn't. I don't. And neither do you. We just do our best with the people we love most. And to pretend that you know what's wrong with people you've never met, who may or may not be perfectly happy and responsible and loving, is to stoop to the arrogance and willful ignorance one finds on sites like Free Republic.
135
Dingo, I don't know of any homeschooled kids who don't have the same cultural references as their peers or who don't regularly see their peers in learning and playing situations.
I suspect we would end up agreeing more than we disagree if we were talking.
Sorry for the rant above. Must go. I'll annoy you all later, I'm sure. Have a great weekend.
I suspect we would end up agreeing more than we disagree if we were talking.
Sorry for the rant above. Must go. I'll annoy you all later, I'm sure. Have a great weekend.
136
I do see your points and I do agree with you somewhat, but since you bring it up I don't think parents should indoctrinate their kids into their religious belief systems either....
137
sorry.. the people i know who home school are all crazy christians. and the reason they home school is to prevent their kids from being "corrupted" by a diversity of thought.
138
"God only knows how many child abusers "home school" their kids in order to isolate their children and avoid the scrutiny of teachers and school officials who are legally obligated to report suspected abuse to the authorities."
What a stupid inflammatory statement. Here's one for you.
"God only knows how many homosexual pedophiles "home school" their kids in order to isolate their children and avoid the scrutiny of teachers and school officials who are legally obligated to report suspected abuse to the authorities."
Both are equally as stupid and unprovable. I expect better from you and the Stranger.
Jacob Lyu
What a stupid inflammatory statement. Here's one for you.
"God only knows how many homosexual pedophiles "home school" their kids in order to isolate their children and avoid the scrutiny of teachers and school officials who are legally obligated to report suspected abuse to the authorities."
Both are equally as stupid and unprovable. I expect better from you and the Stranger.
Jacob Lyu
139
Don't forget all the school teachers, priests, little league coaches, scout leaders, etc. who abuse children. I was abused. I was not homeschooled. I homeschool my kids, in part, to keep them safe. However, mostly I homeschool them because I know I can do a better job than the teachers. If someone with a college degree doesn't think they can pass on a basic education to their child -- presumably the same basic education they received from teachers -- where's the logic in that? I can pass on a childhood education to my children. If you think I can't, that's a pretty sad illustration of the school system's abilities to turn out competent adults.
140
What happened to this girl is truly horrific and sad.
This story is not about homeschooling; it's a story about child abuse.
This story is not about homeschooling; it's a story about child abuse.
141
The narcissism of Dan's headline shocks me. He reads about this poor child's horrific ordeal and thinks, "It's all about gay rights! It's all about meeeeeeee!"
142
I guess this has turned into two different stories. One, this man would have been a sadistic child abusing bastard no matter what. He would have found a way to do what he was doing any number of ways. We've been reading about many such people who were abusers very much like this, but were not homeschooling. Second,we're hearing what a heated topic homeschooling seems to be. I just can't beleive the hate rants people can turn any subject into.(I'm waiting for the one comparing snowy days to sunny days.I'm sure someone will argue that if you like snow you want to murder homusexuals, whereas if you prefer sun, you're liberal communists who want to sell the country to Satan.) Homeschooling is not for everyone. It was certainly not for my family. I was able to shore my kids up where they were weak. They took art and music at the school, and continued with all of their sports leagues. I was not organised enough for it, and my kids knew how to push my buttons. (Family dynamics never change.) It was a positive wonderful thing and helped in MANY different ways.We were all pretty thrilled when they went back to school the next year, but changes were positive and obvious.My cousins three kids all ended up with two years of college when they graduated from high school. I know that is not always the norm, but it worked for them.
143
This link illustrates one of the reasons why we homeschool:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazi…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazi…
144
Just want to add a voice saying that, although some families homeschool for the wrong reasons (religious beliefs especially), there are many great stories as well. I was homeschooled at first as a result of bullying, but soon found that I loved being able to be fully involved in my community rather than trapped at school for 6 hours a day. I spent more time *not* with my parents than with them, got to know a ton of great friends and mentors in my area, and have had a great transition to college life.
I learned on my own, from people in the community, from books ... my parents didn't have to take on the responsibility for teaching me "everything" because we live in a world that is rich with information and resources.
I would never tell someone who went to a traditional school that they "should have" been homeschooled, and it's equally presumptuous for someone to declare that they can claim the authority to speak for me and other homeschoolers who are happy with our choice. For those of you who say all children should be in conventional schools to learn how to deal with systems ... believe me, I've done just fine in college, and I'm sure that I'll be able to negotiate the various pressures, systems, and bureaucracies I will encounter for the rest of my life. Please don't presume that you know my situation better than I do.
I learned on my own, from people in the community, from books ... my parents didn't have to take on the responsibility for teaching me "everything" because we live in a world that is rich with information and resources.
I would never tell someone who went to a traditional school that they "should have" been homeschooled, and it's equally presumptuous for someone to declare that they can claim the authority to speak for me and other homeschoolers who are happy with our choice. For those of you who say all children should be in conventional schools to learn how to deal with systems ... believe me, I've done just fine in college, and I'm sure that I'll be able to negotiate the various pressures, systems, and bureaucracies I will encounter for the rest of my life. Please don't presume that you know my situation better than I do.
145
I was homeschooled because I'm much too smart for all of you. I have an IQ of 200 and I was reading at a high school level during the trigonometry classes I was taking when I was 4.
If you plebs can't accommodate me in that gaggle of lowest common denominators you call an education system, that's your fault, not mine.
If you plebs can't accommodate me in that gaggle of lowest common denominators you call an education system, that's your fault, not mine.
146
I know of some very successful home-schooled situations, including a family that lived in our county, but in a very small rural area with a one-room, multi-grade classroom. The parents chose to homeschool their kids instead, and every single one of them ended up at an Ivy League college. And other friends who've home-schooled their children have made a point of enrolling their kids in local sports, dance, and music programs to help them socialize. But that may be more the exception than the rule. I also consider my roommate's wacky evangelical sister. She flunked 8th grade and dropped out, never went back to school again, yet she insists on home-schooling all of her (now adult) children. Of course, her sole goal is to isolate her kids from any sort of non-Christian thought. They are completely unprepared for socializing in the world, much less higher education.
That, however, has nothing to with Dan's original point.
That, however, has nothing to with Dan's original point.
147
I believe Dan's original point is that some people homeschool their kids as a way to isolate them and cover up their abuse of their kids. Some people, not all.
Just as schools have regulations, including private schools, perhaps home-schoolers should face periodic scheduled and unscheduled inspections from educators and/or social workers. Sadly, in these economic times, I'm not sure that's feasible.
Just as schools have regulations, including private schools, perhaps home-schoolers should face periodic scheduled and unscheduled inspections from educators and/or social workers. Sadly, in these economic times, I'm not sure that's feasible.
148
145
Yeah, that.
And mostly because the other kids beat the shit out of your obnoxious pussy ass every day...
Yeah, that.
And mostly because the other kids beat the shit out of your obnoxious pussy ass every day...
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