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News & ArtsMonday, February 8, 2010
Homo / News Parents, Not Controversies
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:19 AM
Gay couples with children exist. And many gay couples with children send their kids to public schools—schools that gay couples, and gay singles, help to fund through property taxes. Acknowledging the existence of families headed by same-sex couples no more "teaches homosexuality" than acknowledging the existence of opposite-sex couples "teaches heterosexuality."
In the diversity-embracing, socially progressive cocoon of Oak Park, RoiAnn Phillips and Kelly Fondow are raising Eva, a precocious 5-year-old. Eva's school has other kids with gay parents. Her kindergarten classmates have never shied from asking Phillips or Fondow: "Eva has two moms, which one are you?"But the couple got a quick reality check when an Oak Park elementary school came under criticism last month. What Beye Elementary saw as an effort to prevent anti-gay slurs in the classroom turned into a tug-of-war over whether teachers should discuss same-sex relationships with children as early as kindergarten.... [For] conservatives, including three families at Beye, it's not a matter of looking down on gay families. They agree no kids should feel unwelcome or bullied in school. What they don't agree with is introducing the words "gay" or "lesbian" or "homosexual" at the elementary level.
"We do not want any sexuality, homosexuality or heterosexuality, discussed in the classroom for K to 5," said Margaret Brown, a parent at Beye, which has about 10 gay families. "It's inappropriate, and it's not (the school's) place to tell our children what is morally right or wrong on this controversial topic."
Sorry, bigots, but you're going to lose this one. Gays and lesbians are not "controversial topics." We are people and some of us are in long-term relationships and some of us have kids and some of our kids are going to school with some of your kids and acknowledging the existence of families like ours does not constitute an age-inappropriate discussion about human sexuality. Admit it: what you really want is the fraudulent right to raise your children in complete ignorance of homosexuality—in complete ignorance of families headed by same-sex couples—because you're worried that your hatred and bigotry may not survive the exposure to actual gay human beings and our families. Sorry, haters, but raising your children in complete ignorance of same-sex couples and gay and lesbian individuals is no longer possible. Well, it's not possible in public schools. There are plenty of private Christian schools that you can send your children to where they'll never be exposed to families headed by "controversial topics."
1
What these wingnuts don't realize is that sex and sexuality are morally neutral. Assuming we're dealing with adult, consensual situations (if not, we're talking about power relationships, not sexual ones), *-sexuality has no moral flavor or color.
Teachers should be free to mention the fact that Jimmy has two dads and Ellie has two mommies. The only people to whom such references invoke sexual thoughts are those who have it on their minds already.
Teachers should be free to mention the fact that Jimmy has two dads and Ellie has two mommies. The only people to whom such references invoke sexual thoughts are those who have it on their minds already.
2
When you explain to a 5 year old that sometimes 2 men or 2 women can love each other and raise kids together, the 5 year old usually just says "Oh, ok." and accepts it as a fact. They have to be taught to be judgemental.
3
How would this be any different than divorce? Some people think divorce is morally wrong, right? And some people may want to shield their children from the notion that divorce exists. So, is it the public school's job to make sure kids are not exposed to this concept? If a kid starts making fun of another kid because his parents are divorced, should the teachers say nothing because we can't acknowledge the existence of divorce?
Acknowledging its existence does not equal making a moral judgment.
Acknowledging its existence does not equal making a moral judgment.
4
Both my daughters have encountered kids from all sorts of families at school. Being kids they take everything in stride, with often hilarious results. The younger went to a pre-school where about one-third of the parents were same-gendered. This was absolutely not worthy of comment in her eyes. When one mother made a point of telling her that her son had two mommies, she thought a moment and countered with "Well at my house we have three fireplaces!" My older one just absolutely adored her best friend Jack, who had two mommies. She thought having two mommies was a wonderful idea, sort of like having ice cream AND cake.
Maybe what bugs these parents, REALLY bugs them, is that the kids think it's fine for families to be exactly what they are? Maybe they don't want their kids to grow up without the parent's bigoted opinions?
Maybe what bugs these parents, REALLY bugs them, is that the kids think it's fine for families to be exactly what they are? Maybe they don't want their kids to grow up without the parent's bigoted opinions?
5
As an act of charity we could take up an offering and buy them their own island. It is the only way for them to live in a society that is completely ignorant of differences.
There is one thing that I learned in my decade plus of attending an extreme right non-denominational evangelical community church, that ignorance on a subject is viewed as a means of maintaining innocence and they really believe that the two belong together, they maintain the connection as a form of protection for those they love. Ding their wall of ignorance and they will seek to erase you. Sad.
There is one thing that I learned in my decade plus of attending an extreme right non-denominational evangelical community church, that ignorance on a subject is viewed as a means of maintaining innocence and they really believe that the two belong together, they maintain the connection as a form of protection for those they love. Ding their wall of ignorance and they will seek to erase you. Sad.
6
Schools and other such institutions can and should explain that some kids have "two mommies" or two daddies, but in most cases they should just leave it at that.
Kids under 10 or so don't need the specialized vocabulary (gay, lesbian, homosexual, etc.); they'd most likely find it a little confusing absent a detailed explanation of the plumbing involved.
Kids under 10 or so don't need the specialized vocabulary (gay, lesbian, homosexual, etc.); they'd most likely find it a little confusing absent a detailed explanation of the plumbing involved.
7
start'em out young!
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated need but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.
tra la la
skipping to Gommorah
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated need but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.
tra la la
skipping to Gommorah
8
It's ridiculous to try to shield kids from sexual intelligence, as though their ignorance would keep them from having sexual thoughts. Kids are sexual beings. They like sexual activities as much as adults do, although in different ways. Knowing nothing is not going to make sex play less fun, or less frequent. If these parents had any capacity to remember their own childhoods, they'd know this.
10
The fact that something exists is not an argument for it's appropriateness.
The fact that it's practitioners pay taxes is not an argument for it's appropriateness.
The fact that some of it's practitioners may be in long term relationships is not an argument for it's appropriateness.
The fact that some of it's practitioners have kids in the local school is not an argument for it's appropriateness.
All those 'arguments' could be made for pedophiles.
Nazis (that's right- NAZIS!!!)
Aryan skinheads.
Polygamists.
Narcoterrorists.
Lutherans....
The fact that it's practitioners pay taxes is not an argument for it's appropriateness.
The fact that some of it's practitioners may be in long term relationships is not an argument for it's appropriateness.
The fact that some of it's practitioners have kids in the local school is not an argument for it's appropriateness.
All those 'arguments' could be made for pedophiles.
Nazis (that's right- NAZIS!!!)
Aryan skinheads.
Polygamists.
Narcoterrorists.
Lutherans....
11
Even if Conservatives were to get their way and remove any talk of this kind from elementary schools there is no way on Earth kids would be any less exposed to it. I attended a super conservative Catholic school that never mentioned sex or sexuality or (God forbid!) divorce. By kindergarten I had a clear idea that not everyone stayed married forever and since Jimmy was awesome it didn't matter that his mommy and daddy didn't live together. By fourth grade I had a basic (though perhaps a bit oddly informed) knowledge of sex and I knew that sometimes men had sex with and fell in love with other men and women with other women (though I didn't know I knew some homosexuals at the time). By seventh grade I knew that Anthony's dad beat him and his mom all the time, sometimes so badly that Anthony missed school because he was in the hospital. I always wondered how our teachers could say divorce was ALWAYS wrong when this was the case.
12
I had a wonderful Super Bowl Sunday with my controversial topic, who was rooting for the Saints, as I was. We had guacamole & Buffalo wings. Oh, the outrage!!!
13
This whole scenario is described clearly on page 215 of "The Homosexual Agenda" I really wish you would all just take a few minutes and look over the table of contents at least! It's shocking really how many of you know so little about such an oft referenced document. As you know it's in every public library and school.
14
I take exception to this statenment in the original article: [For] conservatives, including three families at Beye, it's not a matter of looking down on gay families.
The problem I have is that they may claim they don't want to "look down on gay families", but pretending gay families don't exist does exactly that. At the very least it presents the idea that same-sex couples are to be shunned, that they are less worthy of recognition. Unfortunately the way that it's phrased in the original article lets those who believe that off the hook.
The problem I have is that they may claim they don't want to "look down on gay families", but pretending gay families don't exist does exactly that. At the very least it presents the idea that same-sex couples are to be shunned, that they are less worthy of recognition. Unfortunately the way that it's phrased in the original article lets those who believe that off the hook.
15
Some people didn't want their children exposed to interracial schools or buses either.
@9, I yelled at her and she's probably pissed.
Repeat to myself, I am not nice, I am not nice...
@9, I yelled at her and she's probably pissed.
Repeat to myself, I am not nice, I am not nice...
16
#5 -- Wow. So very true. The whole worldview is that "worldliness" brings corruption. As long as you stay ignorant you stay innocent.
17
Is it me, or was the complaint the exposure of students to words such as gay or lesbian or homosexual or, for that matter, heterosexual, and not necessarily an issue with the concepts?
The latter two I can see being a problem, just because they're complex words for the K-5 curriculum. But I don't see too much effort required with redefining a gay couple as two daddies and a lesbian couple as two mommies. It would certainly alter the current trajectory of gay as it is used in schoolyards at recess.
This is, of course, if the complaint is truly about introducing sexuality to youngsters at an early age, rather than refusing to teach the broad range of complex family structures that appear in American society. In the latter case, it's not only xenophobic but is also short sighted, since it poorly prepares a child for what he or she will encounter in the community.
The latter two I can see being a problem, just because they're complex words for the K-5 curriculum. But I don't see too much effort required with redefining a gay couple as two daddies and a lesbian couple as two mommies. It would certainly alter the current trajectory of gay as it is used in schoolyards at recess.
This is, of course, if the complaint is truly about introducing sexuality to youngsters at an early age, rather than refusing to teach the broad range of complex family structures that appear in American society. In the latter case, it's not only xenophobic but is also short sighted, since it poorly prepares a child for what he or she will encounter in the community.
18
Dan,
I agree completely, as usual. And I find the waste of money fighting the religious wrong to be an injustice on soooo many levels. But in reading your response I was struck by your own bigotry. You could have said every thing you needed to with out the undertone of superiority that the haters use against the gay community. Just my opinion, I'm sure I'll get flamed for it.
I agree completely, as usual. And I find the waste of money fighting the religious wrong to be an injustice on soooo many levels. But in reading your response I was struck by your own bigotry. You could have said every thing you needed to with out the undertone of superiority that the haters use against the gay community. Just my opinion, I'm sure I'll get flamed for it.
19
Look, I grew up in a household with my mom and her girlfriend, and it never occurred to me to call it anything. That was just my family. My mom and her "roommate" is how most people referred to it in those days. Mom's girlfriend was much more of a dad to me than my biofather.
Kids are far more accepting than most adults can handle. I never even realized they were gay until I was about 13 and realized they'd not only shared a bedroom, but a bed. And all their friends were women who lived in pairs. But as a kid, you just don't even really think about it. Your family is your family, whether it includes multiple mommies, "uncles", extended family members, whatever.
Kids are far more accepting than most adults can handle. I never even realized they were gay until I was about 13 and realized they'd not only shared a bedroom, but a bed. And all their friends were women who lived in pairs. But as a kid, you just don't even really think about it. Your family is your family, whether it includes multiple mommies, "uncles", extended family members, whatever.
20
@10: First, go brush up on you're grammar and learn the difference between it's and its.
And really, the minute you sink to "omg not hiding the existence of gay people is the same as tolerating Naziism," you lose the debate. Period. And anyway, the argument that being gay is the same as being a Nazi/paedophile/child molester is simply absurd. Go back to your cave.
With a grammar book.
And really, the minute you sink to "omg not hiding the existence of gay people is the same as tolerating Naziism," you lose the debate. Period. And anyway, the argument that being gay is the same as being a Nazi/paedophile/child molester is simply absurd. Go back to your cave.
With a grammar book.
21
And just so we're clear, before someone tells me about grammar, I used "you're" intentionally to mock our friend @10.
22
@17: I agree. When I was in middle school, "gay" was the number one insult among us arrogant little brats (we all were pissy little middle schoolers once). Between my long hair and a certain phonetic resemblance between my name and the word "gay", I got taunted incessantly even though I'm straight. A classmate of mine had a lesbian mother who had divorced his father and moved in with another woman, and people would go after him about it. And you know what? When I was pissed at him, I'd mock him about it too because I didn't know better!
Kids do learn about gays and lesbians whether you mention it in school or not. But if they're left to learn on their own, they'll be intensely homophobic right around the time that most homosexuals are coming to terms with their orientation, simply because kids in large groups tend to pick on anyone perceived as an outsider or different.
Kids do learn about gays and lesbians whether you mention it in school or not. But if they're left to learn on their own, they'll be intensely homophobic right around the time that most homosexuals are coming to terms with their orientation, simply because kids in large groups tend to pick on anyone perceived as an outsider or different.
23
Most elementary kids are not at a stage in their development where they think much about sexuality. That's fine, this isn't a sexuality issue. They're not asking for a visual diagram of whether/how this lesbian couple has sex with one another.
They are just asking for the right for their child to be able to talk about her mommies. Why is this so hard?
They are just asking for the right for their child to be able to talk about her mommies. Why is this so hard?
24
They are just asking for the right for their child to be able to talk about her mommies. Why is this so hard?
Because we're dealing with people who say things like, "I have nothing against gay men, I just wouldn't want my daughter dating one."
25
I live in LA now, but this is my old elementary school in my hometown. Oak Park is very progressive and trust me, whatever flack this bigots are trying to push will do pass.
26
I hate reading these kind of things for many reasons, but at the top are people who spout off about what children can learn and what their developmental level are etc.
They usually don't know shit as evidenced by the lack of understanding how children grow as well as what schools teach and how.
Of course logic and reason are sorely lacking everywhere.
They usually don't know shit as evidenced by the lack of understanding how children grow as well as what schools teach and how.
Of course logic and reason are sorely lacking everywhere.
27
People make life way more complicated than it needs to be. I don't agree that young children should be taught the words homosexual or heterosexual. First, they are cold, sterile words that won't mean anything to children. Just make it clear that families are made up of all different arrangements and that the school won't tolerate making fun of someone because of their family. Plain and simple. As for "that's so gay", tell the kids that using the word "gay" as an insult won't be tolerated just like the school shouldn't tolerate a child telling another child that they're "stupid". Punish anyone who violates the rules of respect.
28
The main problem is that these people have been allowed to live in their own little universe where everyone & everything is homogeneous and predictable. They expect that things will be a certain way & when life turns out to be more gray than black & white they go into a complete meltdown.
A while back parents in the UK complained that a woman with one arm (in reality it was more like 1 3/4 but who's counting ;) ) who hosted a children's show was scaring their kids. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29391313/. Using arguments similar to those above - "I'm not ready to teach my child that not everyone has two arms."
Children are more resliliant and smarter than we give them credit for. Adults seem to forget that they were children once themselves. I'm a former child with a weird disability. I didn't realize I was 'different' until I was about 8 & the grown-ups started telling me so.
A while back parents in the UK complained that a woman with one arm (in reality it was more like 1 3/4 but who's counting ;) ) who hosted a children's show was scaring their kids. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29391313/. Using arguments similar to those above - "I'm not ready to teach my child that not everyone has two arms."
Children are more resliliant and smarter than we give them credit for. Adults seem to forget that they were children once themselves. I'm a former child with a weird disability. I didn't realize I was 'different' until I was about 8 & the grown-ups started telling me so.
29
@10 - What do you mean about "appropriate." Are you suggesting that anyone is actually advocating detailed discussions about what goes on in the bedroom? Most kids are exposed to Disney movies and books long before they're in kindergarten, and most of those Disney movies end in a couple getting married. So it's disingenuous to suggest that that we shouldn't discuss heterosexuality, either, when it's so pervasive in children's movies and literature. What we should do is discuss homosexuality and heterosexuality in an age-appropriate manner. Just as Disney stories don't pass behind the bedroom door to show exactly how the prince and princess express "happily ever after" with one another, neither does "King & King" or "Heather Has Two Mommies."
30
@29 - OMG! Too funny you mentioned the book King & King. My three year old twins LOVE King & King & Family, which is the sequel to King & King. My kids insist that we read it EVERY night.
31
@ 22 - "Kids do learn about gays and lesbians whether you mention it in school or not. But if they're left to learn on their own, they'll be intensely homophobic right around the time that most homosexuals are coming to terms with their orientation, simply because kids in large groups tend to pick on anyone perceived as an outsider or different."
Which is exactly what the Christian right wants, even though they'll never tell ya that.
Which is exactly what the Christian right wants, even though they'll never tell ya that.
32
This is a tough one because discussing the idea of same-sex parents could be very "othering" to those children.
However anyone willing to completely commit to that argument missed out on the very basic reality of childhood socializing; everyone (except the perfect popular kids) is going to be picked on for some reason. If you can get over it in Kindergarten maybe you're doing them a favor.
However anyone willing to completely commit to that argument missed out on the very basic reality of childhood socializing; everyone (except the perfect popular kids) is going to be picked on for some reason. If you can get over it in Kindergarten maybe you're doing them a favor.
33
That haters are losing this one badly.
You'd think they'd be more concerned about the fact that they will look like asshole pricks to their kids when their kids grow up.
You'd think they'd be more concerned about the fact that they will look like asshole pricks to their kids when their kids grow up.
35
They're just worried that one of their children will meet a child with two mommies or two daddies and then come home and ask them, "Why can't I have two mommies or two daddies?"
Not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just think it would be amusing to see the look on the conservative parents' faces when they hear it.
Not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just think it would be amusing to see the look on the conservative parents' faces when they hear it.
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