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News & ArtsSaturday, February 6, 2010
Hetero Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:09 AM
Turkish police have recovered the body of a 16-year-old girl they say was buried alive by relatives in an "honour" killing carried out as punishment for talking to boys. The girl, who has been identified only by the initials MM, was found in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a two-metre hole dug under a chicken pen outside her home in Kahta, in the south-eastern province of Adiyaman.... Her father and grandfather are said to have been arrested and held in custody pending trial. It is unclear whether they have been charged. The girl's mother was arrested but was later released. A postmortem examination revealed large amounts of soil in her lungs and stomach, indicating that she had been alive and conscious while being buried.
3
Bizarre demonic practices by Turkish hicks (like we have them here on the states also) somehow proves that having a mother and a father is not the ideal for kids ......
4
Well, there's them what reads the blog, and them what writes it. We need a new word, a neologism, for when this happens on Slog, because it's kind of a trademark thing and I like it. Whichever registered commenter calls it first gets a "close reader" badge, or a clean McGinn whisker clipping in a glassine envelope.
Speaking of neologisms, I saw CBS and (even better) Dlisted are using your "Snowpocalypse" for the east coast weather! Here's Michael's headline using it, with a marvelous clip of a weatherman off the rails:
http://www.dlisted.com/node/35955
Speaking of neologisms, I saw CBS and (even better) Dlisted are using your "Snowpocalypse" for the east coast weather! Here's Michael's headline using it, with a marvelous clip of a weatherman off the rails:
http://www.dlisted.com/node/35955
7
I was out of commission the last few days, and barely had time to post a few things to Slog, much less keep up with everything that was being posted to Slog by others. It's a lot to keep up with. My apologies.
8
@7
it might help if one had a daily meeting or two with the contributors to slog to hash out topics. of course we're in a hyper-individualistic society, and online communities are more enriching than getting together with one's coworkers. having someone lower in command to carry out duties while you're 'out of commission' is an option. apology recognized but not accepted.
who gives a shit. the above are empty sentiments.
it might help if one had a daily meeting or two with the contributors to slog to hash out topics. of course we're in a hyper-individualistic society, and online communities are more enriching than getting together with one's coworkers. having someone lower in command to carry out duties while you're 'out of commission' is an option. apology recognized but not accepted.
who gives a shit. the above are empty sentiments.
14
@ Complainers
If you've seen it before, just scroll on by.
As for the article, I'm supposed to be a big strong man, but this kind of thing always brings tears to my eyes.
If you've seen it before, just scroll on by.
As for the article, I'm supposed to be a big strong man, but this kind of thing always brings tears to my eyes.
15
really no worries dan... it was just that there has been a bit of bad news concerning the children - the parents who wouldn't feed their baby because they didn't want it to be fat, the special need child that was left on the short bus by herself for three hours, some child shot his classmate in the back of the head in school , them missionaries trying to steal those children from haiti, ( thats one news item slog hasn't explored yet the..),the always irrelevantly tangential loveschild blindly promoting a philosophy she doesn't understand. ..
i was a little full of it..
better now
i was a little full of it..
better now
17
@13, 11: I'm just not sure what's "demonic" about it. It's horrific and a disgusting example of a truly evil double standard (did they murder the boys she was talking to?), but demonic? Ol' Loveschild seems to have gotten it into her pointy head that they weren't just killing her, they were actually SACRIFICING her to dark and dire forces.
It does make no sense how a willingness to kill your own children (over ticky-tack things like talking to boys) improves your family's honor or reputation.
It does make no sense how a willingness to kill your own children (over ticky-tack things like talking to boys) improves your family's honor or reputation.
19
Loveschild, you neocolonialist, Eurocentrist, imperialist racist. How dare you criticize the traditional practices of the Turkish people? Guess those 'inferior' Ugandans, I mean, Turks have so much to learn from such a higher intellectual like you. They've made it very clear that unchaste behavior is not part of their culture, and they are, after all, a "sovereign nation." If Uganda, I mean, Turkey, wants to allow honour killings to help those in their population who might be dealing with this issue, who are you to say they're wrong? Surely you're not going to deny their experience and their feelings or try to force your preferred behaviors upon other places?
20
Yeah, that was on the first page of my local paper this morning. Not the best way to start the day I'm afraid. What a travesty.
I like to think that at least the perpitrators are in custody but in reality I doubt they'll face anything like appropreate punishment. One of the points in the story in the paper was that in families where they are hessitant to punish their children, friends and neighbours will pressure them to "do the right thing".
Scarry.
I like to think that at least the perpitrators are in custody but in reality I doubt they'll face anything like appropreate punishment. One of the points in the story in the paper was that in families where they are hessitant to punish their children, friends and neighbours will pressure them to "do the right thing".
Scarry.
23
This happens especially in ethnic Kurdish areas of Turkey (and Iraq).
Go to the Kurdish Women's Rights Watch and cry your eyes out.
www.kwrw.com
[ps Charles and Cienna beat you to this story, but really there are multiple reports every month of this happening out of "liberated" Kurdish Iraq, so why wait for it to be coming out of Turkey to care? Was it the buried alive? I'm not totally sure that is worse than being publicly beaten to death by your father, brothers, and uncles...and I really don't want to imagine it]
Go to the Kurdish Women's Rights Watch and cry your eyes out.
www.kwrw.com
[ps Charles and Cienna beat you to this story, but really there are multiple reports every month of this happening out of "liberated" Kurdish Iraq, so why wait for it to be coming out of Turkey to care? Was it the buried alive? I'm not totally sure that is worse than being publicly beaten to death by your father, brothers, and uncles...and I really don't want to imagine it]
24
@3 LC, I think you're missing the point that Dan is trying to get across with these pieces which is this: A mother and father are not the ONLY ideal. Answer me this...would you rather place a child into the home of those monsters described above? Or into the home of a loving, committed, homosexual couple such as the kind that I have? It makes me sad to see that I, a young college student of only 22, have more critical thinking ability , not to mention a better grasp of the English language, than you do. I don't think I have ever seen a better example of how our education system has failed than I see in you, LC. I'm embarrassed FOR you.
25
Three Times?!
that's nuthin.
most "Youth Pastor Watch" guys get reposted 4 or 5 times....
it makes the christian hetero mayhem seem worse, you know.
and credulous slog usually doesn't notice, or if it does notice doesn't bother to pull it's tongue out of Dan's rectum long enough to complain...
that's nuthin.
most "Youth Pastor Watch" guys get reposted 4 or 5 times....
it makes the christian hetero mayhem seem worse, you know.
and credulous slog usually doesn't notice, or if it does notice doesn't bother to pull it's tongue out of Dan's rectum long enough to complain...
26
24
"loving, committed, homosexual couple"
No need to be redundant, suzzyQ.
ALL homosexual couples ooze with the Loving Commitment.
Didn't your loving, committed mamma's teach you that?
"loving, committed, homosexual couple"
No need to be redundant, suzzyQ.
ALL homosexual couples ooze with the Loving Commitment.
Didn't your loving, committed mamma's teach you that?
27
@7
"Whaaaaaaaaa!
"It's not my fault.... :( "
now now Danny-
of course it's not your fault!
If Mr Keck would hire an editorial director with some journalistic experience this sort of thing would not happen.
but don't fret-
there is certainly a place for lovable credulous clueless assholes in the nets-
it's just not in a grown-up job...
"Whaaaaaaaaa!
"It's not my fault.... :( "
now now Danny-
of course it's not your fault!
If Mr Keck would hire an editorial director with some journalistic experience this sort of thing would not happen.
but don't fret-
there is certainly a place for lovable credulous clueless assholes in the nets-
it's just not in a grown-up job...
28
I don't understand how women or gays ever survive in those countries. It seems like every week another 2 or 3 turn up dead.
29
@24 - Five bucks says LC never responds to you, or if (s)he does, it's only to sidestep the issue.
30
@24 There are many loving, committed married traditional couples capable and willing to provide a stable home for kids in need of adoption. These couples should not be placed as second or third options just because agencies or orphanages need to meet the demands and wants of homosexual pairs. Whenever possible children deserve to be in a loving home that mirrors the normalcy that they've been lacking, that normalcy is only exemplified in a home headed by a mother and a father. Only after all options have been exhausted should anything less than the ideal be considered for a minor. The only "point" Dan is trying to get across with this sort of post is that the wants of adults (like him) should have more weight than the needs and welfare of the children. Once you have kids of your own you'll understand the responsability and how one's needs and wants take a back seat, you'll understand things better then.
31
Loveschild, you neocolonialist, Eurocentrist, imperialist racist. How dare you criticize the traditional practices of the Turkish people? Guess those 'inferior' Ugandans, I mean, Turks have so much to learn from such a higher intellectual like you. They've made it very clear that unchaste behavior is not part of their culture, and they are, after all, a "sovereign nation." If Uganda, I mean, Turkey, wants to allow honour killings to help those in their population who might be dealing with this issue, who are you to say they're wrong? Surely you're not going to deny their experience and their feelings or try to force your preferred behaviors upon other places?
32
@30
Dan's point is that the "normalcy" you preach about is nothing but a half baked device used to benefit your own bigotry. The gender of one spouse being identical to the gender of the other does nothing to weaken the stability the child in question is raised under. It comes down to the people themselves and to believe anything else is, honestly, sexist.
You claim that these people are putting their own wants above the needs of children? No, what they want IS to give the children the environment, stability and parental affection they need. They can do that too, despite your view that you need the complete set of genitalia to do so.
And what the hell do you mean, "These couples should not be placed as second or third options?" Equal footing is not a "second or third option." Similar ridiculous notions have been used to suppress every minority in one way or another, and you're only perpetuating that blatant method of hatred.
Your view of "traditional" and "normal" families being the ideal is only rooted in continuing the idiotic notions set by your religion. Males and females are needed for conception but any functional person can put forth the qualities needed to raise a child to an ideal. Tradition is blind. Love is adaptive and responsive.
Dan's point is that the "normalcy" you preach about is nothing but a half baked device used to benefit your own bigotry. The gender of one spouse being identical to the gender of the other does nothing to weaken the stability the child in question is raised under. It comes down to the people themselves and to believe anything else is, honestly, sexist.
You claim that these people are putting their own wants above the needs of children? No, what they want IS to give the children the environment, stability and parental affection they need. They can do that too, despite your view that you need the complete set of genitalia to do so.
And what the hell do you mean, "These couples should not be placed as second or third options?" Equal footing is not a "second or third option." Similar ridiculous notions have been used to suppress every minority in one way or another, and you're only perpetuating that blatant method of hatred.
Your view of "traditional" and "normal" families being the ideal is only rooted in continuing the idiotic notions set by your religion. Males and females are needed for conception but any functional person can put forth the qualities needed to raise a child to an ideal. Tradition is blind. Love is adaptive and responsive.
33
Loveschild, put up or shut up. Dingo has made the point twice, but you're too illiterate to understand it, so here it is simply: you won't criticize Uganda's anti-gay policies because you claim countries have a right to determine their own polices. But you can criticize Turkey because you don't like the way they do things.
If your comments say anything about your behavior I worry for your kids. Really, because you sound like an incredibly abusive person.
If your comments say anything about your behavior I worry for your kids. Really, because you sound like an incredibly abusive person.
34
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Loveschild?!! Seriously?!!
No one is allowed to critique either Jamaica or Uganda on their treatment of homosexuals, but you get to critique Turkey?!
What a fuck-witted hypocrite you are.
Surely, surely you have inspired everyone here to wake up bright and early and attend church, so we can all act just like you. Not.
No one is allowed to critique either Jamaica or Uganda on their treatment of homosexuals, but you get to critique Turkey?!
What a fuck-witted hypocrite you are.
Surely, surely you have inspired everyone here to wake up bright and early and attend church, so we can all act just like you. Not.
35
@30, My response to you from the Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father, Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:07 AM
LC, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??????????????????????????????
I ask you a question about personal choices YOU made and your answer is...
IT'S ALL KIM'S FAULT...SHE DID IT, NOT ME...SHE BELITTLES ME....SHE DISTORTS WHAT I'VE SAID...SHE ONLY WANTS TO ADVANCE HER OWN AGENDA...SHE CAN NEVER BACK UP HER IDEAOLOGICAL RESEARCHES WITH FACTS...
I TRIED TO BE FRIENDS...SHE USED TO BE COURTEOUS TO ME BUT SHE'S NOT ANYMORE...SHE NEEDS TO APOLOGIZE TO ME...AND YOU, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND TOO...YOU ARE PREJUDICED AND BIASED AGAINST ME...JUST LIKE SAVAGE AND KIM AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE...
I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG...I ONLY WANT HONEST INTERACTIONS THRU THIS FORUM...I QUOTE WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE...I QUOTE PASSAGES AND VERSE...FROM THE BIBLE...THE B_I_B_L_E_...THE WORD OF GOD...YOU JUST WON'T LISTEN...
YOU MAY THINK I'M NOT ANY BETTER THAN ANYONE HERE...BUT I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO WANTS THE TRUTH...I ONLY DO IT OUT OF CARE FOR THE TRUTH IN SPIRITUAL UPLIFTING...
So, thinking, acting and feeling for yourself is OPTIONAL? Taking personal responsibility for your actions is OPTIONAL? Because you are a believer, accountability is OPTIONAL?
Since God told you to sign up on SLOG and God told you to hide your comments and God forgives you of your sins, we should to?
That's life in the "NO FAULT" world YOU live in LC. You are legend in your own mind!
LC, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??????????????????????????????
I ask you a question about personal choices YOU made and your answer is...
IT'S ALL KIM'S FAULT...SHE DID IT, NOT ME...SHE BELITTLES ME....SHE DISTORTS WHAT I'VE SAID...SHE ONLY WANTS TO ADVANCE HER OWN AGENDA...SHE CAN NEVER BACK UP HER IDEAOLOGICAL RESEARCHES WITH FACTS...
I TRIED TO BE FRIENDS...SHE USED TO BE COURTEOUS TO ME BUT SHE'S NOT ANYMORE...SHE NEEDS TO APOLOGIZE TO ME...AND YOU, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND TOO...YOU ARE PREJUDICED AND BIASED AGAINST ME...JUST LIKE SAVAGE AND KIM AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE...
I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG...I ONLY WANT HONEST INTERACTIONS THRU THIS FORUM...I QUOTE WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE...I QUOTE PASSAGES AND VERSE...FROM THE BIBLE...THE B_I_B_L_E_...THE WORD OF GOD...YOU JUST WON'T LISTEN...
YOU MAY THINK I'M NOT ANY BETTER THAN ANYONE HERE...BUT I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO WANTS THE TRUTH...I ONLY DO IT OUT OF CARE FOR THE TRUTH IN SPIRITUAL UPLIFTING...
So, thinking, acting and feeling for yourself is OPTIONAL? Taking personal responsibility for your actions is OPTIONAL? Because you are a believer, accountability is OPTIONAL?
Since God told you to sign up on SLOG and God told you to hide your comments and God forgives you of your sins, we should to?
That's life in the "NO FAULT" world YOU live in LC. You are legend in your own mind!
36
@30, You are our last hope. Noone else here can produce the irrefutable evidence to support that:
"There are many loving, committed married traditional couples capable and willing to provide a stable home for kids in need of adoption. These couples should not be placed as second or third options just because agencies or orphanages need to meet the demands and wants of homosexual pairs. Whenever possible children deserve to be in a loving home that mirrors the normalcy that they've been lacking, that normalcy is only exemplified in a home headed by a mother and a father. Only after all options have been exhausted should anything less than the ideal be considered for a minor."
I really hate to ask this, but could you please provide the link. I would really appreciate it. And I personally want to thank you in advance for sharing your wisdom and knowledge with me.
I anxiously await your reply.
"There are many loving, committed married traditional couples capable and willing to provide a stable home for kids in need of adoption. These couples should not be placed as second or third options just because agencies or orphanages need to meet the demands and wants of homosexual pairs. Whenever possible children deserve to be in a loving home that mirrors the normalcy that they've been lacking, that normalcy is only exemplified in a home headed by a mother and a father. Only after all options have been exhausted should anything less than the ideal be considered for a minor."
I really hate to ask this, but could you please provide the link. I would really appreciate it. And I personally want to thank you in advance for sharing your wisdom and knowledge with me.
I anxiously await your reply.
37
@25, 26, 27
And yet here you are day after day, week after week. There's no need to lower your standards for us. We'll be fine without you. Really, I'm sure.
NAH NAH NAH NAH
NAH NAH NAH NAH
HEY HEY HEY
GOOOOD BYYYE
And yet here you are day after day, week after week. There's no need to lower your standards for us. We'll be fine without you. Really, I'm sure.
NAH NAH NAH NAH
NAH NAH NAH NAH
HEY HEY HEY
GOOOOD BYYYE
38
@30 What I understand now, and what I have always understood, is that normal is relative. And across the wide spectrum of human interactions, there is no way to define what is 'normal'. The basis for adoption, for foster care, is and always should be to choose the parents that will best be able to provide a stable environment for children, and that homosexual couples are just as capable of providing that environment. Do I think that straight couples should be passed over to 'meet the needs' of homosexual couples? Of course not. But it would be just as wrong to pass over homosexual couples for the same reason.
@26 Yes, I'm 22 and still in college because I received a research internship through my university. What was I researching? How pollution may or may not alter gene expression and cause a rise in miscarriages. But please, continue to poke fun.
@26 Yes, I'm 22 and still in college because I received a research internship through my university. What was I researching? How pollution may or may not alter gene expression and cause a rise in miscarriages. But please, continue to poke fun.
40
@24 That wasn't Dan's point at all. That you need to lie about this sort of thing--brazenly and demonstrably--just shows how bankrupt your political position is.
41
@40: Comment 24? Do you mean someone else, because I thought #24 made a good point? Or are you just on a Jack Bauer bender?
SueQ321: that ass bastard Alleged (#39) keeps messing up my name. In case we haven't met, I'm venomlash, undergraduate, amateur debater, full-on civil rights supporter, and quite often a prolific ripper of blue words. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance.
SueQ321: that ass bastard Alleged (#39) keeps messing up my name. In case we haven't met, I'm venomlash, undergraduate, amateur debater, full-on civil rights supporter, and quite often a prolific ripper of blue words. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance.
42
The point of this series is... what, exactly? That any wrongdoing by straight male+female parents, anywhere in the world, for any reason, somehow "proves" something about the worthiness of single or gay parents?
You know better than that, Dan. ESPECIALLY in a case like this, where the truth is staring us in the face: Religion killed this poor girl.
You know better than that, Dan. ESPECIALLY in a case like this, where the truth is staring us in the face: Religion killed this poor girl.
43
Fun as it is to watch Sloggers fight with Loveschild, I think it may be time to reconsider the Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father feature, if only because 1) you're making a pretty obvious point, 2) you're preaching (largely) to the choir, and 3) you're not really making the point I think you'd like to make. I think we can all agree that mothers and fathers sometimes do terrible things. Probably gay men have also sometimes done terrible things. Ditto gay women, transgender people, Caucasian people, African American people, tall people, short people, people who enjoy pineapple, people who can't stand the stuff. You get the picture. Every human category contains someone who has done something awful.
It is of course wrong and repellent to suggest that all will be well if only a child is parented by a mother and a father, and that no other family setup is acceptable. Reminding us that every human is fallible, however, does little to address the question of whether a child is better off with in one family configuration that in another, *assuming that the parents in each are doing a pretty good job.* That's really the crux of the argument, and publishing accounts of atrocities doesn't address it. I could argue, for example, that children are better off with two parents than they are with one. You could come back with examples of exemplary single parents and paired parents who have done awful stuff--but that wouldn't address the question of whether kids are better off with one parent or two parents *assuming that all these parents are at least minimally competent.*
Dan, I'm on your side, but I think this particular section has come to the end of its editorial life.
It is of course wrong and repellent to suggest that all will be well if only a child is parented by a mother and a father, and that no other family setup is acceptable. Reminding us that every human is fallible, however, does little to address the question of whether a child is better off with in one family configuration that in another, *assuming that the parents in each are doing a pretty good job.* That's really the crux of the argument, and publishing accounts of atrocities doesn't address it. I could argue, for example, that children are better off with two parents than they are with one. You could come back with examples of exemplary single parents and paired parents who have done awful stuff--but that wouldn't address the question of whether kids are better off with one parent or two parents *assuming that all these parents are at least minimally competent.*
Dan, I'm on your side, but I think this particular section has come to the end of its editorial life.
44
If a Ugandan christian buried his gay son alive the person with love in their name would bitch about Dan judging African people's ancient culture.
45
#42 - A fathers stupidity, shaped by tradition, killed this poor girl. Tradition is what drives the whole argument against gay marriage and gay people adopting children. I think people are missing the point of the post.
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