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News & ArtsFriday, February 5, 2010
Homo Anti-Gay Hate Lit Distributed to High School Students
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 7:43 AM
This is outrageous:
Some Montgomery County high schools passed out fliers this week from an organization that contends gays can become heterosexual through therapy, and the schools say they cannot prevent the use of their distribution system by such groups. The fliers, from the group Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays, were distributed Thursday alongside report cards by teachers at Winston Churchill High School in Potomac. The group says it delivered them to about half the county's high schools this week and plans to do the same at the remaining high schools at the end of the school year.
Ex-gay therapy is quackery. No reputable professional organization backs it. From the LA Times last August:
There is no evidence to support the claims of some practitioners that sexual orientation can be changed through therapy, a special committee of the American Psychological Assn. reported today. Mental health professionals should not tell patients that they can change their sexual orientation and instead should help them "explore possible life paths that address the reality of their sexual orientation," according to the report, which was released at a Toronto meeting of the association and online. Although the majority of scientists now believe that sexual orientation is genetically predetermined, many therapists have claimed to be able to change gay people into straight ones. Spurred by the controversy surrounding such claims, the APA in 2007 appointed a six-member committee of experts to examine the review and update the association's 1997 report on the subject. Today's 138-page report, approved by the APA's governing council, represents their conclusions.
The ex-gay movement is a fraud perpetrated by religious bigots and its true purpose isn't converting gay people to straight people—although they're more than happy to prey on the vulnerable, self-hating homos their religious bigotry helps to create—but to convince straight people that the public debate about gay rights, debates about gay employment protections and gays in the military and gay marriage that some find deeply discomforting, could be avoided if gay people weren't so damn stubborn. If gay people would just submit to a little "ex-gay" therapy we could all be magically converted to heterosexuality and—poof!—no more conflicts about gay rights, no more arguments about marriage equality, no more need to let openly gay people serve in the military, because no more gay people!
It's like arguing that baptism is solution to anti-semitism.
Back to the Washington Post:
The schools are required to distribute literature that isn't deemed hate speech from any registered nonprofit organization four times a year, the result of a 2006 lawsuit, said Dana Tofig, a spokesman for the Montgomery County Public Schools.
This lit is hate speech. But if the anti-gay bigots can send anti-gay literature home with high schoolers—some of whom are gay and no doubt struggling—because they registered their hate groups as nonprofits, then pro-gay organizations—registered nonprofits like PFLAG and GLSEN—can send pro-gay literature home with middle schoolers too.
1
Can, maybe, but should?
"How was your day at school, hon?"
"Nothing special. Going into the cafeteria we got leafleted by those dicks, on the way out we got counter-leafleted by those other dicks. And the tuna surprise was nasty."
"How was your day at school, hon?"
"Nothing special. Going into the cafeteria we got leafleted by those dicks, on the way out we got counter-leafleted by those other dicks. And the tuna surprise was nasty."
2
The problem here is obviously with distributing literature to students at all. since when is it the schools' job to hand out literature for anyone? Sure, this is extra-special over-the-top, but there are an awful lot of what I'd consider pretty nutso non-profits out there that I wouldn't want the schools handing out literature to my kids for.
4
Experts on both sides during the Prop 8 trial said reparative/forced conversion therapy doesn't work and that it is simply, again, forced conversion. Oh, and it causes psychological trauma.
First the zits, then the gym class fart, and now the poor kid has gotta be yelled at by someone saying their mother turned them gay? Oy vey, high school!
First the zits, then the gym class fart, and now the poor kid has gotta be yelled at by someone saying their mother turned them gay? Oy vey, high school!
5
Dan, who do realize the APA is a left wing advocacy group parading as a scientific organization.
That their 'studies' and 'research' are designed to yield outcomes that advance the positions they advocate.
That they are scientific slut whores.
You do realize that, don't you?
I thought when Obama came in Science would be freed from partisian bondage.
That their 'studies' and 'research' are designed to yield outcomes that advance the positions they advocate.
That they are scientific slut whores.
You do realize that, don't you?
I thought when Obama came in Science would be freed from partisian bondage.
6
Whoo hoo! This means if I want to distribute literature at such a school that tells Jews that they can convert to Christianity, it's fine--as long as I'm not hating on the Jews?
Awesome.
Awesome.
7
Thanks for bringing attention to this, Dan. I'm an avid reader in Washington, DC. I find this maddening, and you are right: there is nothing here but hate. Do what you want, conservative right, to try to affect us adults through DADT, DOMA and the like. But to target adolescents in such an important formative stage is completely reprehensible. As a young man in my early 20s who came out freshman year of college, I know that having received something like this while I was in high school would have just pushed me deeper in the closet. GLSEN and others of the kind, and I guess we all, need to step up and do something here like you say because this is truly scary. These bigots are really just trying to bring all out war on the gay community, and a hardline, "don't fuck with us" response is needed. We should all feel for the susceptible and easily impressionable gay youth out there who have been and will continue to be deeply impacted by such negativity and hate.
9
@6 I was trying to get at some sort of comparison like that too, but you hit the nail on the head.
10
@5: Where's your proof of successful reparative or forced conversion therapy that isn't ongoing and allows the subject to reintegrate into society with no adverse effects? Alan Chambers? Jim Hartline? Ted Haggard?
11
I gotta agree with the @1. When I was in high school the U of Mich socialist students organization(s) were always handing us fliers at the high school. It made me think socialists were all annoying, smelly, vegan hippies.
They're probably only doing themselves a disservice by doing this. Then again it is happening in the south, so maybe the kids down there are so inbred that they believe every pamphlet they are handed. Or more likely they've already been raised to be anti-gay bigots and the pamphlets help reinforce that.
Either way I don't see PFLAG handing out pamphlets as doing anything to help.
They're probably only doing themselves a disservice by doing this. Then again it is happening in the south, so maybe the kids down there are so inbred that they believe every pamphlet they are handed. Or more likely they've already been raised to be anti-gay bigots and the pamphlets help reinforce that.
Either way I don't see PFLAG handing out pamphlets as doing anything to help.
12
I think a test case involving school distribution of PFEGG vs. PFLAG literature should be set up as soon as possible for the Supreme Court.
Oh, wait...
Oh, wait...
13
Labeling professional conclusions one disagrees with "hate speech" stiffles inquiry and research.
In the antebellum South any one who advanced a position that questioned slavery or the various pseudo scientific theories used to justify it was hounded out of the region.
No newspaper, lecturer, professor dare question the prevailing Slavery PC Mantra.
Homosexual militants have created a similar enviroment.
The "academic" community is disproportionately Radical Left, and pressure to cut off grants, tenure etc ensures that no research or inquiry or questioning of the militant homosexual agenda will be tolerated.
Act-Up pressure was very effective at bringing the APA in line- few individual researchers are in a position to commit professional suicide by taking on Querr Incorporated.
It is a very anti-science tactic, but one the left is fond of. (see Global "Warming")
(Scientic concensus is Wonderful. In 1930s Germany the majority of scientists 'believed' that Jewish inferiority was genetically predetermined.)
In the antebellum South any one who advanced a position that questioned slavery or the various pseudo scientific theories used to justify it was hounded out of the region.
No newspaper, lecturer, professor dare question the prevailing Slavery PC Mantra.
Homosexual militants have created a similar enviroment.
The "academic" community is disproportionately Radical Left, and pressure to cut off grants, tenure etc ensures that no research or inquiry or questioning of the militant homosexual agenda will be tolerated.
Act-Up pressure was very effective at bringing the APA in line- few individual researchers are in a position to commit professional suicide by taking on Querr Incorporated.
It is a very anti-science tactic, but one the left is fond of. (see Global "Warming")
(Scientic concensus is Wonderful. In 1930s Germany the majority of scientists 'believed' that Jewish inferiority was genetically predetermined.)
14
What a bunch of alarmist, conspiracy-theorist bullshit, 13. People have been trying to turn gay people straight for decades, and all the reliable scientific evidence shows that it simply does not work. The best they can do is to diminish all sexual desire, but it comes at the cost of the --well, I was tempted to say "victim" -- the person's psychological well-being. The truth is that all the best available, scientific, peer reviewed evidence from every reputable professional organization in the world shows that conversion "therapy" simply does not work. At best it's quackery.
So. Would a non-profit organization claiming AIDS can be prevented by eating garlic be permitted to distribute leaflets to that effect to schoolchildren? The claim is equally outrageous, and equally unsupported by the facts, but some people believe it. Does that make it acceptable?
So. Would a non-profit organization claiming AIDS can be prevented by eating garlic be permitted to distribute leaflets to that effect to schoolchildren? The claim is equally outrageous, and equally unsupported by the facts, but some people believe it. Does that make it acceptable?
15
So, who wants to draft up the pamphlet encouraging students to undergo therapy to become gay?
I mean, if you can be pushed in one direction, you can be pushed in the other, right? And if they have the right to recruit for their team, it's only fair that the other team recruit from the same pool, right?
I mean, if you can be pushed in one direction, you can be pushed in the other, right? And if they have the right to recruit for their team, it's only fair that the other team recruit from the same pool, right?
16
Dan, I hate to say this being a big ole queer myself, but this is not hate speech just because you don't like it, or because it's a lie.
Being accurate is important if we are ever going to get anywhere on issues. If you are alarmist and hyperbolic about them because they are being alarmist and hyperbolic, I'm feel certain nothing will change.
I sure don't inderstand why schools need to distribute literature from anyone.
Being accurate is important if we are ever going to get anywhere on issues. If you are alarmist and hyperbolic about them because they are being alarmist and hyperbolic, I'm feel certain nothing will change.
I sure don't inderstand why schools need to distribute literature from anyone.
17
I agree that the school shouldn't be distributing anyone's literature. At the same time, I don't get why gay rights groups are intent on proving that sexuality isn't a choice. So what if it is? That still doesn't mean it should be discriminated against...and even if they're proven right, are fundie groups suddenly going to say "ohh!! you're NOT deliberately gay! It's all right then, go forth and hump!!" No, they'll probably just move the goal to celibacy.
18
"We believe that people have the right to seek change if they're unhappy," said Regina Griggs, the organization's director. "No one's telling anybody that they have to support our position."
Dan, do you believe that people who have been identifying as gay but have doubts about it or are otherwise unhappy and troubled have a right to seek counseling?
Or must every Gay be like Dan?
The Hotel California "one drop" rule of Queerness-
you can check in any time you like but YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE?
Dan, do you believe that people who have been identifying as gay but have doubts about it or are otherwise unhappy and troubled have a right to seek counseling?
Or must every Gay be like Dan?
The Hotel California "one drop" rule of Queerness-
you can check in any time you like but YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE?
19
@5 - Bullshit. You are lying about the APA. A "left wing advocacy organization"? Because they don't agree with your made-up reasons to hate other people? Bull fucking shit.
@8 - Yes. No true homosexual has EVER truly gone straight. Do some research. Sure, bisexuals can live monogamous lives with someone of the opposite sex, and homosexuals can force themselves (often at great psychological damage) to not act on their same-sex inclinations, but that's not the same as actually becoming straight.
@8 - Yes. No true homosexual has EVER truly gone straight. Do some research. Sure, bisexuals can live monogamous lives with someone of the opposite sex, and homosexuals can force themselves (often at great psychological damage) to not act on their same-sex inclinations, but that's not the same as actually becoming straight.
20
@13: ACT-UP didn't invade the APA, nor did gays force them to change.It was the Gay Liberation Front. Their goal was to enter a workgroup (or several? I forget) where the unseated majority was trying to get the board to admit the work of several scientists with a strong multi-decade body of work as a secondary position on homosexuality and have it removed as a pathology from a subsequent DSM revision.
Since the board was led at the time by a rather unbalanced conservative slant by way of Robert Spitzer, they weren't about to acknowledge this work. Until the GLF made a spectacle and suddenly the whole medical community had to stare Kinsey, Hooker and others in the face.
Moreover, insistence that egodystonic homosexuality is the norm is pretty vain. Sure, folks can "change" just like I can call myself Christian and go to church every week. That doesn't mean I'm actually a believer or accept christ. Egodystonic homosexuality is exacerbated strongly by environment, too, which is why the bulk of those who claim conversion or control of their desires are under social or personal duress. Ted Haggard is immersed in evangelical culture, so he changed to put his sexuality's presentation in line with culture, same with Pete LaBarbera. Jim Hartline (and Alan Chambers, I think) are both under personal duress for their current health status, so they "changed" in a futile attempt at pushing away what they perceived to be the cause of their major health problem (while pushing away culpability).
When you assume everyone is unhappy with their sexuality, it's easy to outright assume they have the necessary pathology that can cause and enforce "change" and control one's conduct. Just like it's easy to assume your, say, religion is correct because everyone is unhappy with whatever life path they're on.
More...
Since the board was led at the time by a rather unbalanced conservative slant by way of Robert Spitzer, they weren't about to acknowledge this work. Until the GLF made a spectacle and suddenly the whole medical community had to stare Kinsey, Hooker and others in the face.
Moreover, insistence that egodystonic homosexuality is the norm is pretty vain. Sure, folks can "change" just like I can call myself Christian and go to church every week. That doesn't mean I'm actually a believer or accept christ. Egodystonic homosexuality is exacerbated strongly by environment, too, which is why the bulk of those who claim conversion or control of their desires are under social or personal duress. Ted Haggard is immersed in evangelical culture, so he changed to put his sexuality's presentation in line with culture, same with Pete LaBarbera. Jim Hartline (and Alan Chambers, I think) are both under personal duress for their current health status, so they "changed" in a futile attempt at pushing away what they perceived to be the cause of their major health problem (while pushing away culpability).
When you assume everyone is unhappy with their sexuality, it's easy to outright assume they have the necessary pathology that can cause and enforce "change" and control one's conduct. Just like it's easy to assume your, say, religion is correct because everyone is unhappy with whatever life path they're on.
21
@13, I don't want to "stiffle" inquiry and research but Exodus and similar groups aren't interested in inquiry and research. Despite all the evidence to the contrary they're still claiming that it's not only possible to change someone's sexual orientation but that it's desirable.
I'm not sure this qualifies as hate speech--I think it falls into a gray area--but it's got even less of a scientific basis than the "intelligent design" baloney that doesn't need to be taught in schools either. Even if it's not hate speech I'm against the propagation of false information, and even if it's not technically sponsored by the school the fact that it's being handed out at school still gives it more than a veneer of credibility than it deserves. It's similar to Bill Frist's infamous declaration that HIV could be spread through sweat and tears. There's no evidence to back that claim up, but, hey, it was made by a doctor, so it must be true.
I'm not sure this qualifies as hate speech--I think it falls into a gray area--but it's got even less of a scientific basis than the "intelligent design" baloney that doesn't need to be taught in schools either. Even if it's not hate speech I'm against the propagation of false information, and even if it's not technically sponsored by the school the fact that it's being handed out at school still gives it more than a veneer of credibility than it deserves. It's similar to Bill Frist's infamous declaration that HIV could be spread through sweat and tears. There's no evidence to back that claim up, but, hey, it was made by a doctor, so it must be true.
22
Students will see these. The lowest common denominator, the ones who are already homophobic, will see these. They will see this as an adult source of information. They will see it as a go ahead to harass and bully the gay students, or students they decide to call gay. "Stop bein' a queer, faggot!", "You don't have to be like this, why'd pick it? You can change, the grown-ups told me. Why are you still nasty like this?"
Someone will get hurt because of this. That is why this IS hate speech.
Someone will get hurt because of this. That is why this IS hate speech.
23
If unhappiness is the problem, trying to change one's sexual orientation is not the solution. People who are unhappy with their sexual orientation are so because of prejudice in larger society and/or religion.
24
from the 'Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays' website:
PFOX is not a therapeutic or counseling organization. PFOX supports families, advocates for the ex-gay community, and educates the public on sexual orientation. Each year thousands of men, women and teens with unwanted same-sex attractions make the personal decision to leave homosexuality. However, there are those who refuse to respect that decision. Consequently, formerly gay persons are reviled simply because they dare to exist! Without PFOX, ex-gays would have no voice in a hostile environment.
PFOX families unconditionally love their children. PFOX parents recognize our children for the wonderful young men and women they are. PFOX families do not label children based on who they are attracted to—feelings can and do change. PFOX families allow for differences of opinion; we do not place requirements on our children nor do they place them on us. That’s what unconditional love means—loving each other even when we do not agree.
PFOX families allow for differences of opinion, Dan; do you?
PFOX is not a therapeutic or counseling organization. PFOX supports families, advocates for the ex-gay community, and educates the public on sexual orientation. Each year thousands of men, women and teens with unwanted same-sex attractions make the personal decision to leave homosexuality. However, there are those who refuse to respect that decision. Consequently, formerly gay persons are reviled simply because they dare to exist! Without PFOX, ex-gays would have no voice in a hostile environment.
PFOX families unconditionally love their children. PFOX parents recognize our children for the wonderful young men and women they are. PFOX families do not label children based on who they are attracted to—feelings can and do change. PFOX families allow for differences of opinion; we do not place requirements on our children nor do they place them on us. That’s what unconditional love means—loving each other even when we do not agree.
PFOX families allow for differences of opinion, Dan; do you?
26
@22 -- while your presumed "timeline" may be true, please look up legal defintions of hate speech before going any further.
27
I'm a little unclear, does 13 win the argument and the interwebs for alluding to nazis, or does a person have to outright reference Hitler for the win?
28
@26: "Legal definitions" have no bearing on someone declaring that they find speech to be hateful or potentially dangerous. Oh, the delicious irony of your comment.
30
@27 - I don't know who you are but we're friends now, okay?
@25 - a) It's spelled vague. Not 'vauge'.
b) I think it's pretty clear, myself. A true homosexual being someone is actually homosexual, as opposed to someone who mistakenly thinks they may be homosexual. Either you are, or you aren't. Evidently, you want to believe unfounded claims about it being a 'choice' despite these claims being disproved by respected scientific organizations. You're allowed to believe what you want, but you're not going to convince anyone here of it, so you may as well stop wasting your time.
@25 - a) It's spelled vague. Not 'vauge'.
b) I think it's pretty clear, myself. A true homosexual being someone is actually homosexual, as opposed to someone who mistakenly thinks they may be homosexual. Either you are, or you aren't. Evidently, you want to believe unfounded claims about it being a 'choice' despite these claims being disproved by respected scientific organizations. You're allowed to believe what you want, but you're not going to convince anyone here of it, so you may as well stop wasting your time.
31
@28 I see no irony at all. I didn't say the speech wasn't full of hate or derogatory etc. Not sure what your point is.
BC, I actually like it better when you're funny --- you are really good at that. Your rundown on how Lovechild isn't real still makes me snicker...
BC, I actually like it better when you're funny --- you are really good at that. Your rundown on how Lovechild isn't real still makes me snicker...
32
@30, yay for Stranger friends! I think that's the first time I've posted a comment since creating an account on here.
33
@24 -- Such absurdity. No doubt there are people who don't like their current sexuality (countless configurations)and change themselves through differnt means, but a support group for "ex" gays and lesbians? They need a support group?? For what?
They are leaving -- is that the right word?- the bad, bad world of gayiety which even advocates admit is a tiny fraction of what is offered the non-gay world. Their new digs are hetrosexualism 24/7. They can't ignore the sniggers from their past sordid little world?
Oh wait PFOX is a cover.......
They are leaving -- is that the right word?- the bad, bad world of gayiety which even advocates admit is a tiny fraction of what is offered the non-gay world. Their new digs are hetrosexualism 24/7. They can't ignore the sniggers from their past sordid little world?
Oh wait PFOX is a cover.......
34
"Although the majority of scientists now believe that sexual orientation is genetically predetermined..."
Where did they get this assessment? There is a very incoherent argument for a "gay gene" yet news media outlets continue to blow past appropriate caveats and continue to ignore the many cases of "gay gene" research like Hammers proving NOT REPEATABLE! We shouldn't just give that shit away.
Where did they get this assessment? There is a very incoherent argument for a "gay gene" yet news media outlets continue to blow past appropriate caveats and continue to ignore the many cases of "gay gene" research like Hammers proving NOT REPEATABLE! We shouldn't just give that shit away.
35
@30
Does someone who mistakenly thinks they may be homosexual realize that they are mistaken?
Or do they actually think they are homosexual, but then somebody breaks the truth to them, that they are 'mistaken', and, sorry, they are not a True Homosexual?
That would really be harsh.
Whose job is that?
Who decides who is a True Homosexual?
(do the clothes give them away?
are you girls sure Dan is a True Homosexual?...)
Are True Homosexuals as true as Pure Aryans?
Does someone who mistakenly thinks they may be homosexual realize that they are mistaken?
Or do they actually think they are homosexual, but then somebody breaks the truth to them, that they are 'mistaken', and, sorry, they are not a True Homosexual?
That would really be harsh.
Whose job is that?
Who decides who is a True Homosexual?
(do the clothes give them away?
are you girls sure Dan is a True Homosexual?...)
Are True Homosexuals as true as Pure Aryans?
36
Do guys who have sex in prison count as True Homosexuals? What if they really like it but don't want to let on.
Are youth counselors who have sex with 16 year old young men True Homosexuals? What if the guy waits until the kid is 17 to stick a toungue down his throat. in a bathroom. True Homosexual?
What about a guy with a wife and kids who also has sex with men. True homosexual? Do bisexuals get to be True? Or are they dirty mongrels...
Does "Pay for Gay" make them True? What if they really are gay but say they are straight so when they Pay for Gay they'll get more money. True?
we need more information....
Are youth counselors who have sex with 16 year old young men True Homosexuals? What if the guy waits until the kid is 17 to stick a toungue down his throat. in a bathroom. True Homosexual?
What about a guy with a wife and kids who also has sex with men. True homosexual? Do bisexuals get to be True? Or are they dirty mongrels...
Does "Pay for Gay" make them True? What if they really are gay but say they are straight so when they Pay for Gay they'll get more money. True?
we need more information....
37
30
Do True Homosexuals ever turn into someone who mistakenly thinks they may be homosexual.
Can you lose the True?
That would have to be a shocker.
Is the True hard to hang onto?
Maybe that's why homosexuals commit suicide?
Because either they are or they aren't?
True, that is.....
Do True Homosexuals ever turn into someone who mistakenly thinks they may be homosexual.
Can you lose the True?
That would have to be a shocker.
Is the True hard to hang onto?
Maybe that's why homosexuals commit suicide?
Because either they are or they aren't?
True, that is.....
38
@34 (LukeJoe): I too am skeptical of a genetic determinant of sexuality. Genetic influence? Wouldn't surprise me. But I doubt it's deterministic, and I suspect variations in prenatal hormone exposure make a big difference (fraternal twins, birth order, those '60s era endocrine affecting pregnancy drugs). I wouldn't be at all surprised if social factors play a big role as well.
I don't understand why the LGB community feel a need to justify their sexuality as immutable and predetermined to these fundies.
I don't understand why the LGB community feel a need to justify their sexuality as immutable and predetermined to these fundies.
39
30
If you get a Gay Marriage and then realize you're mistaken and not a True Homosexual do you have to give it back?
What about the gifts?
If you get a Gay Marriage and then realize you're mistaken and not a True Homosexual do you have to give it back?
What about the gifts?
40
Let's pretend for a second that homosexuality is a choice. Religion is a choice (albeit one many people do not consciously make for themselves), and we're not allowed to discriminate against someone because they made a particular choice. Why? Because it doesn't pose a threat to the rest of society. The same goes for homosexuality.
Now, it's not a choice to be gay, so let's treat it more like gender, or skin color. Don't fucking discriminate against people who happen to be different from you just because your ignorance has instilled fears and insecurities in you.
The real issue here, though, is whether any organization [not officially sanctioned by the school] should be allowed to distribute literature of any kind (discriminatory or otherwise) on school grounds. And the answer should be no. School should be a place to learn information in as unbiased a way as humanly possible. Students should not be a captive audience for any group's cause.
Now, it's not a choice to be gay, so let's treat it more like gender, or skin color. Don't fucking discriminate against people who happen to be different from you just because your ignorance has instilled fears and insecurities in you.
The real issue here, though, is whether any organization [not officially sanctioned by the school] should be allowed to distribute literature of any kind (discriminatory or otherwise) on school grounds. And the answer should be no. School should be a place to learn information in as unbiased a way as humanly possible. Students should not be a captive audience for any group's cause.
41
I understand it, 38. Because the bigots' entire argument is that (homo)sexuality is NOT genetic, ie: it's a choice, and it's a bad choice, and since it's both bad and a choice it's justifiable to withhold rights from people who make that choice.
Of course, if HOMOsexuality isn't genetic, then surely HETEROsexuality isn't either; it would be very unlikely to be otherwise. But then, logic isn't their strong point.
And of course, if it's ever conclusively proven that homosexualty IS genetic, it won't stop the religiobigots from saying it's wrong, that people should try to change, and that rights should be withheld.
Of course, if HOMOsexuality isn't genetic, then surely HETEROsexuality isn't either; it would be very unlikely to be otherwise. But then, logic isn't their strong point.
And of course, if it's ever conclusively proven that homosexualty IS genetic, it won't stop the religiobigots from saying it's wrong, that people should try to change, and that rights should be withheld.
42
30
If you go to enough Broadway musicals can you become True?
Are there lessons you can take?
A Gay Gerut?
What if a True Homosexual takes you on as a padowan?
If you go to enough Broadway musicals can you become True?
Are there lessons you can take?
A Gay Gerut?
What if a True Homosexual takes you on as a padowan?
43
I have no hetrosexual attraction at all, but if a gay guy can function with a woman than he has some bisexual tendencies. If I had bisexual ability, i'd go straight.
44
30
If you are not a True Homosexual but are really really nice to the Gays might they let you in the club?
I mean a sickeningly sweet nauseatingly nice burrowing brownnose shameless kissup.
Like, is there any hope that Kim in Portland can ever become a Gay?
If you are not a True Homosexual but are really really nice to the Gays might they let you in the club?
I mean a sickeningly sweet nauseatingly nice burrowing brownnose shameless kissup.
Like, is there any hope that Kim in Portland can ever become a Gay?
45
@11, this is not in the south. Montgomery County, Maryland is adjacent to Washington DC, very liberal and very educated. It's nothing like what you think it is.
46
This is not in the south, but an incredibly affluent suburb of Washington, DC. For those who missed it, DC and its suburbs tend to range from royal blue to a nice shade of purple, politically. So we're not talking about some country bumpkin' skool sistim where evangelical christan values pass for educational cirriculum.
I'm honestly more offended that the school system is forced or even allowed to pass out literature from outside organizations than anything. Even at my college, those dudes that pass out the new testament weren't permitted to distribute on campus property.
If you think PFOX is a harmless support group for formerly confused teenagers, check out the Washington City Paper's Sexist blog for a run-down of the organization. The author of that blog has been on this group's case for a while. They're no "innocent support group."
And hate speech is that which encourages violence against a group or person based on their membership in a protected class. I'm not sure this makes the cut, but it certainly does promote hatred and shaming of gay teenagers.
I'm honestly more offended that the school system is forced or even allowed to pass out literature from outside organizations than anything. Even at my college, those dudes that pass out the new testament weren't permitted to distribute on campus property.
If you think PFOX is a harmless support group for formerly confused teenagers, check out the Washington City Paper's Sexist blog for a run-down of the organization. The author of that blog has been on this group's case for a while. They're no "innocent support group."
And hate speech is that which encourages violence against a group or person based on their membership in a protected class. I'm not sure this makes the cut, but it certainly does promote hatred and shaming of gay teenagers.
47
@Alleged: A homosexual is someone who is attracted sexually and romantically only to people of their own gender. I've told you that several times, but you are too colossally THICK to understand anything that doesn't fit nicely with your own closed-minded beliefs.
Severe psychological trauma can cause people to behave differently in terms of sexuality, but this has not been seen to change someone's underlying orientation.
Severe psychological trauma can cause people to behave differently in terms of sexuality, but this has not been seen to change someone's underlying orientation.
48
47 but venom, you never told us about the True.
and the guys that are attracted to little boys you pawn off as hetero (wtf?!)
do you know what gender means?
and the guys that are attracted to little boys you pawn off as hetero (wtf?!)
do you know what gender means?
49
Dear #35, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44.
Thank you for the oh-so-subtle reminder of why the phrase "don't feed the trolls" exists. I will try to follow it, since your responses have really contained nothing but smarmy rhetoric. If you have any sincere questions, or any actual intellectual desire at all to understand the situation, feel free to debate your opinion with reasoning and facts, like an adult.
Thank you for the oh-so-subtle reminder of why the phrase "don't feed the trolls" exists. I will try to follow it, since your responses have really contained nothing but smarmy rhetoric. If you have any sincere questions, or any actual intellectual desire at all to understand the situation, feel free to debate your opinion with reasoning and facts, like an adult.
50
I hesitate to say this but look up PFOX website to get an eyeful of how to distort information.
I can't say any of it is hate speech, but it is just wrong on so many levels.
Of course there is a religious affiliation to it all despite their claims otherwise. Look at the Chapters listings to see who heads up local groups and where they meet.
All those gay reparation "therapists" are all certified -- by their own organization. And their other training is overwhelmingly from church-based colleges.
Ugh.... I am gonna go take a bath now to wash all that away, and relax in feeling good about who I am. Guilt and shame peddlars...sheesh....
I can't say any of it is hate speech, but it is just wrong on so many levels.
Of course there is a religious affiliation to it all despite their claims otherwise. Look at the Chapters listings to see who heads up local groups and where they meet.
All those gay reparation "therapists" are all certified -- by their own organization. And their other training is overwhelmingly from church-based colleges.
Ugh.... I am gonna go take a bath now to wash all that away, and relax in feeling good about who I am. Guilt and shame peddlars...sheesh....
51
It's about the money-
There is a lucrative business in gay conversion. It's always about the $$$ when it comes to the church(es).
Especially because they have so many repeat convertee's...
There is a lucrative business in gay conversion. It's always about the $$$ when it comes to the church(es).
Especially because they have so many repeat convertee's...
52
Wow, how naïve of me to assume in @12 that the acronym for Parents and "Friends" of "Ex-Gays" and Gays was PFEGG. PFOX fits them better in so many, many ways.
53
As a MoCo native, I am contacting the Board of Education to give them a (polite but firm) piece of my mind.
Contact info here: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/boe/
Contact info here: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/boe/
54
@41 - I think the problem is logic isn't really our strong point, either. If it was we would be making our own logical arguments and advocating sexual freedom, rather than wasting our time reacting to the irrational attacks of the deeply jealous.
Particularly when, as you admit, proving these fallacies wrong isn't going to actually win us any ground. (Because untruths don't get less true the more you debate them.)
Particularly when, as you admit, proving these fallacies wrong isn't going to actually win us any ground. (Because untruths don't get less true the more you debate them.)
55
#16 when an organized political movement tries to change what you inherently are, even though you are doing nobody any wrong, they basically hate you.
56
55
Why do you fear PFOX?
They just believe that people have the right to seek change if they're unhappy.
Are you unhappy?
Why do you fear PFOX?
They just believe that people have the right to seek change if they're unhappy.
Are you unhappy?
57
Here's what I just sent the MoCo Board of Education
from
cate burlington
to
boe@mcpsmd.org,
Patricia_O'Neill@mcpsmd.org,
Christopher_Barclay@mcpsmd.org,
Laura_Berthiaume@mcpsmd.org,
Shirley_Brandman@mcpsmd.org,
Judy_Docca@mcpsmd.org,
Michael_A_Durso@mcpsmd.org,
Phil_Kauffman@mcpsmd.org
subject
"Ex-gay" materials should NOT be distributed in schools
Dear Board of Education,
I was born in Washington, DC and grew up in Bethesda, Maryland. I attended Garrett Park Elementary School, Tilden Middle School, and Walter Johnson High School. My four siblings and I all received quality education in the Montgomery County Public School System.
I'm writing to you today because I am deeply concerned by a story I have just read in the Washington Post about "ex-gay" materials being distributed to students along with official school documents.
Potomac students get fliers saying therapy turns gays straight
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
This kind of material is medically inaccurate and deeply inappropriate for distribution to students. A gay person cannot be changed into a straight person, nor vice-versa, and those who attempt to do so are not licensed therapists, and are not recognized by any credible medical authority.
Growing up as a young gay person in Montgomery County Schools was challenging at times, but I was lucky to find the support of understanding teachers and staff. I was proud to be a part of Walter Johnson's gay-straight student alliance, one of the first of its kind in the nation. When I watched my sister, seven years younger than I, attend Walter Johnson, I saw the atmosphere had become remarkably more tolerant and open toward gay kids in her class, and I was prouder still.
Please, please don't take a step backwards into intolerance. Every small sign of welcome or unwelcome is significant to young people struggling with their identities. Don't make life harder for my present-day counterparts at your schools by sending them information telling them that who they are is a disease which can (and should) be cured.
Respectfully Yours,
Cate Burlington
P.S. For more information on these damaging "ex-gay" therapies, please see the excellent resources here: http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/categor…
More...
from
cate burlington
to
boe@mcpsmd.org,
Patricia_O'Neill@mcpsmd.org,
Christopher_Barclay@mcpsmd.org,
Laura_Berthiaume@mcpsmd.org,
Shirley_Brandman@mcpsmd.org,
Judy_Docca@mcpsmd.org,
Michael_A_Durso@mcpsmd.org,
Phil_Kauffman@mcpsmd.org
subject
"Ex-gay" materials should NOT be distributed in schools
Dear Board of Education,
I was born in Washington, DC and grew up in Bethesda, Maryland. I attended Garrett Park Elementary School, Tilden Middle School, and Walter Johnson High School. My four siblings and I all received quality education in the Montgomery County Public School System.
I'm writing to you today because I am deeply concerned by a story I have just read in the Washington Post about "ex-gay" materials being distributed to students along with official school documents.
Potomac students get fliers saying therapy turns gays straight
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
This kind of material is medically inaccurate and deeply inappropriate for distribution to students. A gay person cannot be changed into a straight person, nor vice-versa, and those who attempt to do so are not licensed therapists, and are not recognized by any credible medical authority.
Growing up as a young gay person in Montgomery County Schools was challenging at times, but I was lucky to find the support of understanding teachers and staff. I was proud to be a part of Walter Johnson's gay-straight student alliance, one of the first of its kind in the nation. When I watched my sister, seven years younger than I, attend Walter Johnson, I saw the atmosphere had become remarkably more tolerant and open toward gay kids in her class, and I was prouder still.
Please, please don't take a step backwards into intolerance. Every small sign of welcome or unwelcome is significant to young people struggling with their identities. Don't make life harder for my present-day counterparts at your schools by sending them information telling them that who they are is a disease which can (and should) be cured.
Respectfully Yours,
Cate Burlington
P.S. For more information on these damaging "ex-gay" therapies, please see the excellent resources here: http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/categor…
58
Just to confirm, in case any non-trolls are still reading, montgomery county MD is not the south. It is deeply blue (e.g. it voted 72% Obama, more than the county that Seattle is in). The year after I graduated HS in 1985, a gay student went with his boyfriend to the prom (my HS was one school over from the school in the Post article). 1985. Not that this wasn't astonishing and brave then. It was. I just trust many of the HS students there now to realize that the handout is total crap. And to be in an atmosphere where they're not afraid to say it out loud.
59
@ 57: I <3 you Cate! Thank you! I think we should see if this school has any LGBTQ-rights student groups who are protesting this issue, and write them letters of support. It might help them sway the local school district.
@ 56: That was so creepy! I can't tell if you're doing parody or not. I'm a married straight person and even I'M afraid of PFOX.
@ 40: Brilliant! Clear head, sharp mind, sound logic, solid ethics. Thank you.
@ 43: If that was honest, that was heartbreaking. Cheer up. Here's something to be chipper about! Yeah, straight couples are given more human rights but... Gay couples don't have to use birth control! Eh? Eh? Birth control is INCONVENIENT!
Also, PFLAG loves you too. It might be time to seek out some sources of unconditional positive regard. Please find a community that will respect your personal boundaries while showing you kindness and sincere compassion.
@ everyone who discussed "the gay gene": ...Oy.
The assertion that homosexuality is genetically predetermined does NOT imply that this difference falls to the presence or absence of a single gene. Multiple genes acting in concert are likely involved, because brains are physically complicated and the neuroscience of sexual orientation is likely damn complicated. I'm not even making a gay rights argument here. I just have enough of a background in cognitive neuroscience to be annoyed by that kind of "one gay gene" talk. So, stop it!
OK. I feel better.
@ 56: That was so creepy! I can't tell if you're doing parody or not. I'm a married straight person and even I'M afraid of PFOX.
@ 40: Brilliant! Clear head, sharp mind, sound logic, solid ethics. Thank you.
@ 43: If that was honest, that was heartbreaking. Cheer up. Here's something to be chipper about! Yeah, straight couples are given more human rights but... Gay couples don't have to use birth control! Eh? Eh? Birth control is INCONVENIENT!
Also, PFLAG loves you too. It might be time to seek out some sources of unconditional positive regard. Please find a community that will respect your personal boundaries while showing you kindness and sincere compassion.
@ everyone who discussed "the gay gene": ...Oy.
The assertion that homosexuality is genetically predetermined does NOT imply that this difference falls to the presence or absence of a single gene. Multiple genes acting in concert are likely involved, because brains are physically complicated and the neuroscience of sexual orientation is likely damn complicated. I'm not even making a gay rights argument here. I just have enough of a background in cognitive neuroscience to be annoyed by that kind of "one gay gene" talk. So, stop it!
OK. I feel better.
60
Frankly I thing the whole idea over whether or not homosexuality (or any other orientation) is genetic or social should be completely irrelevant. The bottom line is: does it harm anyone? No.
I'm not saying it should not be researched--as a lover of science, sexual orientations should be researched for the sake of our understanding of the natural world and all that is in it.
Undergoing expensive, potentially psychologically damaging therapy for no other reason than the fact that someone is sexually attracted to the same sex, is tantamount to spending such money on therapies to overcome an aversion to having the color black in your wardrobe. In other words, you aren't treating an actual problem, you're just enforcing social homogeneity. Once psychiatrists, therapists, etc., stop treating actual real problems that you have, and start focusing on "problems" of simply not being in the majority--they're not real therapists. They simply another form of cosmetic surgeon, one for the mind.
And why is a school allowing pamphlets and tracts to be handed out? I don't see how that would be permitted at a high school. Whatever, can anyone start an ex-straight therapy group? Fair's only fair.
I'm not saying it should not be researched--as a lover of science, sexual orientations should be researched for the sake of our understanding of the natural world and all that is in it.
Undergoing expensive, potentially psychologically damaging therapy for no other reason than the fact that someone is sexually attracted to the same sex, is tantamount to spending such money on therapies to overcome an aversion to having the color black in your wardrobe. In other words, you aren't treating an actual problem, you're just enforcing social homogeneity. Once psychiatrists, therapists, etc., stop treating actual real problems that you have, and start focusing on "problems" of simply not being in the majority--they're not real therapists. They simply another form of cosmetic surgeon, one for the mind.
And why is a school allowing pamphlets and tracts to be handed out? I don't see how that would be permitted at a high school. Whatever, can anyone start an ex-straight therapy group? Fair's only fair.
61
@55 Nobody I know here is arguing your point.
Several people including me are saying that not all ugly, hateful and inaccurate speech is hate speech.
Like I said to others, look up "hate speech" .Hateful speech is protected whereas hate speech isn't.
Several people including me are saying that not all ugly, hateful and inaccurate speech is hate speech.
Like I said to others, look up "hate speech" .Hateful speech is protected whereas hate speech isn't.
62
Allegedly must have stopped taking his meds again. Check the floor near your nightstand. Allegedly. They might have fallen in back, against the wall. In the meantime you're not one to be criticizing others who (might or might not) use the no true Scotsman paradigm. Remember?
This situation is fucked up, and I'm surprised that anyone can hand lit to kids on school grounds without expressed permission from school admin (putting the responsibility in their hands).
And this is not the first time that the faith-connected anti-gay community has all but declared open season for bullies on gay kids. We saw a bit of that during the Day of Silence controversy. So yes, bullies are regarded by the Christian hate folk as a division in their Army of Faith.
This situation is fucked up, and I'm surprised that anyone can hand lit to kids on school grounds without expressed permission from school admin (putting the responsibility in their hands).
And this is not the first time that the faith-connected anti-gay community has all but declared open season for bullies on gay kids. We saw a bit of that during the Day of Silence controversy. So yes, bullies are regarded by the Christian hate folk as a division in their Army of Faith.
63
Being gay is not a choice. If a gay guy start dating a woman, it doesn't make him straight. Just bi.
Anyway, this kind of bullshit happen everywhere, check this out. (this "news" is almost a year old, but I don't think many of you know it. And I'm sure Dan will find this interesting too)
http://www.narth.com/docs/popmusic.html
Anyway, this kind of bullshit happen everywhere, check this out. (this "news" is almost a year old, but I don't think many of you know it. And I'm sure Dan will find this interesting too)
http://www.narth.com/docs/popmusic.html
64
What really pisses me off about this is how the haters are always flapping their gums about gay "recruitment" in schools. Then they go ahead and distribute bullshit, fake, ignorant hater lit to kids. And through the SYSTEM and through TEACHERS no less!
As a teacher myself, I would certainly raise hell if I was asked to distribute anything as fundamentally stupid as this. I consider myself lucky I DON'T have kids, or I'd be spending all of my free time in lockup for punching fundie asshole fuckheads at PTA meetings.
As a teacher myself, I would certainly raise hell if I was asked to distribute anything as fundamentally stupid as this. I consider myself lucky I DON'T have kids, or I'd be spending all of my free time in lockup for punching fundie asshole fuckheads at PTA meetings.
65
I don't think this should be distributed in schools but I have no fundamental problem with groups dedicated to "fixing" gays existence. The way that many of them try to go about it is sickening -- especially since most of them are supposedly trying to do "the Lord's work".
But in principle I think such groups have a valuable purpose: not actually changing anyone's life, but in helping them come to terms with the fact that it is unchangeable. I've never known a couple that wanted a divorce then went to marriage counseling and walked away happily married again. But people go, and come out of the experience with the knowledge that they did everything they could to avoid a lifestyle change that they didn't particularly want.
Why should homosexuals be given that same chance? While no one should be forced to go into one of these programs, and the programs themselves should not be designed with a "gay is bad" message, for many gays, their sexuality isn't something they want -- they would become straight if they could, especially those who are just realizing what their preferences are. At least they'll know they tried everything and perhaps find some level of acceptance in that.
But in principle I think such groups have a valuable purpose: not actually changing anyone's life, but in helping them come to terms with the fact that it is unchangeable. I've never known a couple that wanted a divorce then went to marriage counseling and walked away happily married again. But people go, and come out of the experience with the knowledge that they did everything they could to avoid a lifestyle change that they didn't particularly want.
Why should homosexuals be given that same chance? While no one should be forced to go into one of these programs, and the programs themselves should not be designed with a "gay is bad" message, for many gays, their sexuality isn't something they want -- they would become straight if they could, especially those who are just realizing what their preferences are. At least they'll know they tried everything and perhaps find some level of acceptance in that.
66
Hey I'm a 14 year old boy from the UK and I'm gay. I have no clue what PFOX is but I don't like it. Basically, I'm not finding being gay easy and I havnt told anyone. You will not find anyone in my school anouncing that they are gay. I'm sure they are there, they'd just rather not be bullied for the rest of high school.
Newsletters like that one are just reinforcing discrimination against gays. Apart from anything else it makes life for homosexuals just that bit harder and makes me wish I was born as a straight child. In my opinion, the school shouldn't pass out any fliers from outside organisations and teens should be taught how to respect different sexualities in R.E or P.S.E lessons.
Sorry for not having enough knowledge to take part in the debate properly, and it looks like it finished a few months ago anyway, but I just wanted to get my feelings across. So thanks if read my comment with an open mind :)
Newsletters like that one are just reinforcing discrimination against gays. Apart from anything else it makes life for homosexuals just that bit harder and makes me wish I was born as a straight child. In my opinion, the school shouldn't pass out any fliers from outside organisations and teens should be taught how to respect different sexualities in R.E or P.S.E lessons.
Sorry for not having enough knowledge to take part in the debate properly, and it looks like it finished a few months ago anyway, but I just wanted to get my feelings across. So thanks if read my comment with an open mind :)
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