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News & ArtsTuesday, February 2, 2010
War A Conversation with My Brother in Iraq about Don't Ask, Don't Tell
Posted by Christopher Frizzelle on Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:47 PM
- Mike's on the far left. This was posted to Facebook Dec. 4.
Last night, I was drinking at Pony when I got a text from my youngest brother saying, simply, "Mike is on facebook." I set down my drink, said goodbye, and raced home. Mike is a first lieutenant in the Army, stationed in Basra right now. Every once in a while, we'll catch each other on Facebook and get to chat while he's sitting in a tent somewhere. He pops up on Facebook at random times, like 1:18 am on a Tuesday. (We write actual letters too, but it takes forever for them to get where they're going; the last one I sent in a padded pouch, packed with SweetTarts, his favorite, for his birthday.) Maybe because I'd just been in a gay bar, or because DADT has been in the news, or because Scott Brown and the military brass have said they want to talk to commanders in the field to find out their thoughts about the practical ramifications of repealing DADT before doing so—or because of all of the above and the confidence of three beers in me—I started asking Mike about DADT. It's something that we've never talked about.
He's my favorite brother: a conservative who voted for Kerry in '04 (because "Bush is an idiot") and Obama in '08 (he explained why in a text message). Funny, hard-working, kind, missed greatly by the family, honest. Asked last night by his (gay) older brother for his no-bullshit opinion on repealing DADT, he said, "Honestly, I think it would cause a lot of problems."
Our full conversation, and another recent photo from Basra posted to Facebook, are after the jump.
- Mike's on the left. Posted to Facebook Jan. 29.
Christopher
hey can i ask you your no bullshit opinion about DADT?
just curious what you think about it
you guys hear the state of the union speech last week?
1:20amMike
DADT?
i missed it but i hear sound bites from the news.
1:21amChristopher
don't ask don't tell
gay dudes like your older bro in the military
obama says he's gonna work with the military to finally repeal it, curious what you think since i have no military experience and realize it might be weird for some people
1:22amMike
yeah, thats a tough question
honestly, i think it would cause a lot of problems
i mean, soldiers are usually conservative
1:24amChristopher
I went on a couple dates once with a guy in the navy (there's a base out here) and he had to keep everything a total secret or he could lose his job. But he said guys on his base hook up all the time, kind of a known thing but no one talks about it.
1:24amMike
then you would have the added problems of relationships
1:24amChristopher
And this other guy i've been reading about is an arabic translator (which the country is desperate for) and he got fired too.
But I can see there are probably lots of sides to the issue. 13,000 guys dishonorably* discharged since the 90s.
Not much they can do about their sexuality.
1:24amMike
just having girls in the miltary is tough enough, as far as being sensitive
1:24amChristopher
But we're in two wars, etc etc, so I don't fuckin know.
1:25amMike
im trying not to sound like an asshole, but you know what im saying
1:25amChristopher
Yeah
I wish you'd be even more blunt but you're prob trying to be nice to your brother
1:25amMike
maybe they shouldnt be fired for it
but it would cause a lot of problem
1:26amChristopher
dishonorable discharge for being honest seems like a shitty way to go down.
1:26amMike
we already go through sensitivity training all the time
1:26amChristopher
or, like, say your ex got mad and ratted you out, cuz they were mad, and you lost your job.
that'd suck
what's sensitivity training?
1:26amMike
maybe in the future people would be ready for that, but maybe we should work on gay marriage before we throw it into the military
1:27amChristopher
That's funny.
You're ahead of your time, man.
A majority of the country thinks gay ppl should be allowed to fight without gettin fired, but only a small minority thinks gay marriage is cool.
"marriage" is a religious concept to most ppl.
1:29amMike
not to mention, the military in general is way more conservative than civilian life
1:29amChristopher
Yeah.
I actually can't believe public opinion is the way it is on it.
1:29amMike
like you can lose your job for having an affair
if your married, or the person you sleep with is married
enlisted to officer dating, you can losr your job
and, if if two guys in my platoon are in a relationship, that would cause so many problems
1:31amChristopher
yeah
i could see that
1:31amMike
on my patrol base its jsut my platoon, all guys, and they wanted to send out 2 female cooks.
basically i sent them back. Id rather eat MRE's for a year than have a female live with us just because of the problems it would cause
1:32amChristopher
you're sensible, mike frizzelle.
what's MREs?
1:33amMike
meal ready to eat
1:33amChristopher
like a can of beans or somethin?
1:34amMike
sort of...Ill bring one home sometime
1:34am
Then we started talking about other stuff—his girlfriend, Avatar ("we have a bootleg copy, and i saw about a minute of it before i was bored"), Mom, California.
* UPDATE: As a commenter points out—I didn't realize this—not everyone discharged from the military under DADT is discharged dishonorably.
1
Its just like any other job. You're going to have to meet and work with gay people, whether you like them or not. Its not like there are no gay people already in the military.
2
Your brother's arguments suck. "I like black people but, you know, letting them into our schools would cause a lot of problems..."
3
I can see where your brother is coming from, but I don't think it's ever going to get any easier. It was tough to integrate the armed forces, it's been even tougher to include women (I have to say it's pretty hard to stomach that he sent away the cooks because they were women - why is it so hard for men to act like adults?) and just sitting on the issue won't make it any easier.
4
I'm sensitive to the fact that, yes, it would cause problems, but as he himself points out, allowing women into the military met the same objections, and integrating the military was considered a pretty damn radical idea - and the military survived both. They're definitely still working out the kinks on the women in the military part, though; some branches have definitely done better than others with that (the Marines don't have anything like the problems the Army does).
5
He's shortsighted. Doesn't see that there could be just as strict rules about not dating other members of your platoon or something. And just because gay people could legally be gay and in the military doesn't mean that they're going to come out to their as he said it conservative platoon members.
6
If it's forbidden for enlisted and officers to have a relationship, why can't it be forbidden for two guys (or two girls or a guy & a girl) in the same platoon to have a relationship? That actually seems like a pretty sensible thing to do, if they're going to repeal DADT.
7
Yeah I gotta say your brother seems like a decent guy but kinda lazy in a way. He'd rather just eat MREs than deal with having female cooks? The women have to go somewhere. Are they supposed to just not have any women in the military? It doesn't seem like that much to ask the men to act like human beings and not animals towards the women.
8
You have never lived until you have eaten an MRE. Some of them are actually decent, but some taste like dog food. I love the little Tabasco bottles that some of them include.
9
I can get you an MRE at the commissary if you want to know the drill - that's a pretty drastic statement given the nastiness of those things. One French MRE goes for THREE American ones in Iraq, I've heard.
10
BTW, great that your brother was honest and great that you posted it. But... I have to agree with TVDinner. Why can't we just expect soldiers to act like grown-ups? I mean, your brother is basically saying "Sorry women and gays, but us straight men are too immature and/or unprofessional to handle your presence, so you don't get the same opportunities that we do." I understand it from a "makes his life easier as the guy in charge" perspective, but easy isn't always right, integrating african-americans was hard, blah, blah blah.
11
You're assuming all of the problems are caused by the men.
It doesn't seem like that much to ask the men to act like human beings and not animals towards the women.
You're assuming all of the problems are caused by the men.
14
You see…freedom doesn't work like that. We don't get freedom when and if everyone can "deal" with it. Freedom just is, otherwise our Constitution means nothing, what with natural rights and all.
If democracy can't exist due to the fact that humans can't deal with the natural rights of individuals, then democracy can't exist.
But, that's not what will happen. The change will happen and the military will go on just fine.
If democracy can't exist due to the fact that humans can't deal with the natural rights of individuals, then democracy can't exist.
But, that's not what will happen. The change will happen and the military will go on just fine.
15
In fact, how many commenters have any idea how difficult integration can be? I'm not suggesting the military keep DADT. I'm just suggesting we shouldn't minimalize how difficult a process this really is.
17
six shooter…so what if it's hard. Rights aren't arbitrary according to the whims of the powerful, per our Constitution, they are natural and exist prior to the formation of our nation.
18
Nowadays, you can't get a dishonorable discharge under DADT unless you're specifically caught in the act of same-sex intercourse (not kissing, hand-holding or being verbally honest) on a military base. I say this as a woman who was *honorably* discharged from the Army under DADT in November 2003 from the Defense Language Institute in California. Even though DLI is two hours' drive from San Francisco, it's hardly liberal and the anti-gay environment is stifling.
A year before my discharge, that base rooted out a large number of Army Arabic linguists during a "health and welfare" sting. All of these soldiers received general discharges or fully honorable discharges, depending on the evidence against them. Because the soldiers were a part of a training company, they couldn't claim the "Queen for a Day" excuse the military has on the books, just in case someone gets caught. Instead, they were outed, subjected to personnel investigations and then discharged after a month. They weren't fortunate enough to contact the Servicemember Legal Defense Network to safeguard themselves properly in the military or in the civilian world after their contracts were cut short.
I didn't know any of these soldiers personally, as I wasn't on the installation at the time (or even assigned to their former company), so I'm not sure how hard they took their separations. But I do know that it's always hard to explain how and why a person was discharged from the Army (whethere honorably, or generally) under DADT.
A year before my discharge, that base rooted out a large number of Army Arabic linguists during a "health and welfare" sting. All of these soldiers received general discharges or fully honorable discharges, depending on the evidence against them. Because the soldiers were a part of a training company, they couldn't claim the "Queen for a Day" excuse the military has on the books, just in case someone gets caught. Instead, they were outed, subjected to personnel investigations and then discharged after a month. They weren't fortunate enough to contact the Servicemember Legal Defense Network to safeguard themselves properly in the military or in the civilian world after their contracts were cut short.
I didn't know any of these soldiers personally, as I wasn't on the installation at the time (or even assigned to their former company), so I'm not sure how hard they took their separations. But I do know that it's always hard to explain how and why a person was discharged from the Army (whethere honorably, or generally) under DADT.
19
Currently the military's own estimates are that one in three female soldiers will be sexually assaulted, twice the rate as in the civilian population. So Christopher's brother is right to suggest that integration of women into the military has been problematic.
He's right to worry about the repeal of DADT too. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do, but those pretending that it's a simple matter are being naive. It isn't exactly like another workplace, it's a unique situation.
He's right to worry about the repeal of DADT too. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do, but those pretending that it's a simple matter are being naive. It isn't exactly like another workplace, it's a unique situation.
20
six shooter:
Come on, it's really not that hard. It's really simple; act like a human being.
Yes some people are going to fail at it, and they will need to be dealt with. But as some other people have said, putting it off doesn't make it easier.
Clearly, there's still problems with Women in the military after all this time, and from what I understand they are in still many ways second class members of the military.
To this admittedly civilian observer it seems to me that the problem lies with the fact that our military is mostly straight, conservative men and all the baggage that comes with that. Misogyny, bigotry, etc.
Come on, it's really not that hard. It's really simple; act like a human being.
Yes some people are going to fail at it, and they will need to be dealt with. But as some other people have said, putting it off doesn't make it easier.
Clearly, there's still problems with Women in the military after all this time, and from what I understand they are in still many ways second class members of the military.
To this admittedly civilian observer it seems to me that the problem lies with the fact that our military is mostly straight, conservative men and all the baggage that comes with that. Misogyny, bigotry, etc.
21
@11 That's a good point. He could have just meant the logistical issues it would have raised having men and women together (like the what has to be done to have men and women at the same jail), as opposed to the interpersonal issues (or that the behavior of the women is the thing causing the interpersonal problems).
It seems to me like integrating women would be much harder than integrating gays, but that's just me.
I didn't find MREs to be that bad, but then again, I didn't have to eat them for a year. I liked the "lottery" aspect of it - you know what the main dish is, but all of the "side dishes" (or whatever you would call peanut butter & crackers, or sweets) are unknown. Am I going to get something good or something crappy? They're stupidly heavy, if you're carrying them in your pack, though.
It seems to me like integrating women would be much harder than integrating gays, but that's just me.
I didn't find MREs to be that bad, but then again, I didn't have to eat them for a year. I liked the "lottery" aspect of it - you know what the main dish is, but all of the "side dishes" (or whatever you would call peanut butter & crackers, or sweets) are unknown. Am I going to get something good or something crappy? They're stupidly heavy, if you're carrying them in your pack, though.
22
So I have a question: Does anyone know why repealing DADT will cost MONEY & take TIME? I don't really get that???......the most difficult thing I can think of is rewriting a few military manuals, making a couple rules about ass fucking in the bunks & then doing a powerpoint presentation.....poof...its gone.....
23
I think you can buy an MRE at the army navy surplus in belltown. I would like to see a food review of those things.
24
Soldiers are conservative? Who gives a shit? The conservative thing to do, the SOLDIERLY thing to do, is to do what you're fucking told. If the brass says "here's your gay" you say "yes, sir".
Also: the gays are already there. 55,000 of them, I heard. Your brother is probably sleeping next to a fag every night already.
Also: how does the disruptive effect of open homosexuals in the military compare with the disruptive effect of THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS that go on in the military every goddamn day without punishment?
Also: this mysterious disruptive force hasn't had any impact at all in the other militaries that have allowed it, which is all of the civilized ones. Gay soldiers in Britain's army make no difference at all.
Also: the gays are already there. 55,000 of them, I heard. Your brother is probably sleeping next to a fag every night already.
Also: how does the disruptive effect of open homosexuals in the military compare with the disruptive effect of THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS that go on in the military every goddamn day without punishment?
Also: this mysterious disruptive force hasn't had any impact at all in the other militaries that have allowed it, which is all of the civilized ones. Gay soldiers in Britain's army make no difference at all.
25
Most military commands already have rules on not dating other people in the command, but from my experience it usually isn't enforced. And when it is, you get in trouble, but don't get kicked out with an OTH (other than honorable discharge). Usually just loose some pay, maybe rank, and get some extra duty for a month or two.
But that was the navy. The army or marines may be worse.
But that was the navy. The army or marines may be worse.
26
@22, have you ever heard the expression "there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way"?
27
Integrating blacks into the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military... Oh wait, it's been done...
Allowing women to serve in the aremed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military... Oh wait, that's been done too!
Allowing gays to serve in the aremed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military...
Sorry, you're brothers argument doesn't fly...
And who is to say a gay relationship isn't happening at this very moment right under his nose?
Allowing women to serve in the aremed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military... Oh wait, that's been done too!
Allowing gays to serve in the aremed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military...
Sorry, you're brothers argument doesn't fly...
And who is to say a gay relationship isn't happening at this very moment right under his nose?
28
@1 Are you forced in any other job to daily share, bathroom, showers and bunks beds with others ? The stress and anxiety that would be added to military men and women would only weaken our nations best. And in the end for what ? Just to please people like you. There's nothing to be gain by the military to allow open homosexuality. The first thing the military needs to do is survey their troops like this young man and get a feel of where they're on this because in the end it is them who will have to deal with the consequences of a repeal of this policy.
29
Christopher, thanks for sharing this; it's interesting stuff though it felt a little dirty to be reading someone's personal conversation.
People who are so quick to tear into your brother's "shitty," "lazy" arguments fail to appreciate that he's just being honest, giving a ground view of what the troops really think and feel. It's not like your brother is making policy, nor is he going to rebel against a change in it. You're just providing a peek into how delicately this policy change would have to be handled.
I'm surprised at how little it ever gets mentioned that Israel's (badass) military is completely open to gay soldiers...
People who are so quick to tear into your brother's "shitty," "lazy" arguments fail to appreciate that he's just being honest, giving a ground view of what the troops really think and feel. It's not like your brother is making policy, nor is he going to rebel against a change in it. You're just providing a peek into how delicately this policy change would have to be handled.
I'm surprised at how little it ever gets mentioned that Israel's (badass) military is completely open to gay soldiers...
30
Spell Check version-lol!
Integrating blacks into the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military... Oh wait, it's been done...
Allowing women to serve in the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military... Oh wait, that's been done too!
Allowing gays to serve in the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military...
Sorry, you're brothers argument doesn't fly...
And who is to say a gay relationship isn't happening at this very moment right under his nose?
Integrating blacks into the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military... Oh wait, it's been done...
Allowing women to serve in the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military... Oh wait, that's been done too!
Allowing gays to serve in the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military...
Sorry, you're brothers argument doesn't fly...
And who is to say a gay relationship isn't happening at this very moment right under his nose?
31
@12 - the problem lies in the higher-ups of the military. Everyone takes a cue from their superiors. If the superiors are weak against DADT or outright against it, then that, like shit, flows downhill. If a superior is misogynist, there's probably less chances that any sexual assault will be reported.
What we need is a, "Get used to it or get dishonorably discharged" on every level - and yes, I'm well aware of the consequences of discharging a brilliant but bigoted corporal/admiral/what-have-you. I'd ask 'how far would a racist captain be tolerated?' but with today's military, I'm kind of afraid of the answer.
What we need is a, "Get used to it or get dishonorably discharged" on every level - and yes, I'm well aware of the consequences of discharging a brilliant but bigoted corporal/admiral/what-have-you. I'd ask 'how far would a racist captain be tolerated?' but with today's military, I'm kind of afraid of the answer.
32
Loveschild you ignorant cunt...that argument didn't hold water for African American soldiers being integrated in so it aint gonna work now either.
A soldiers job is to do what the military needs/orders. The color of their skin or who they want to have a relationship with outside of the military HAS NO BEARING on their daily performance. Any relationship with any fellow soldier is not allowed. It is as simple as that.
A soldiers job is to do what the military needs/orders. The color of their skin or who they want to have a relationship with outside of the military HAS NO BEARING on their daily performance. Any relationship with any fellow soldier is not allowed. It is as simple as that.
33
No offense, Christopher, but how the hell do you not know what an MRE is? Watch some Generation Kill, if only for Alexander Skarsgard's beautiful body.
34
@28.
I think this is the first time I've ever responded to a reply of yours! I feel like I'm getting my cherry popped! :D
Anyone who has a problem with that is sexist, etc. etc. and has no place being in the military. I am perfectly fine with them getting kicked out if they're that big of a pansy. 'Sides, they already are showering, eating, etc. with gays so that's an illogical argument (but you thrive on those, from what I gather ;) ).
I think this is the first time I've ever responded to a reply of yours! I feel like I'm getting my cherry popped! :D
Anyone who has a problem with that is sexist, etc. etc. and has no place being in the military. I am perfectly fine with them getting kicked out if they're that big of a pansy. 'Sides, they already are showering, eating, etc. with gays so that's an illogical argument (but you thrive on those, from what I gather ;) ).
35
@28 - There's definitely nothing to gain from ending DADT. It's not like our military is short of soldiers or anything - they just must really love issuing stop-losses. And who needs all those Arabic translators who were dismissed under DADT anyways?
36
The younger Ftizzelle's doing what all soldiers do: defending Army policy, whatever it may be. When Army policy changes, after a few rotations the next crop of soldiers will as a matter of course make the adjustment. No more gracefully or fully than with racial and gender integration, sure, but certainly no fucking less.
37
Nope, SpellCheck won't catch "you're brothers argument" and change it to "your brother's argument."
38
I am not suggesting we don't integrate. I am suggesting you consider the opinion of someone actually in the military -- someone fairly gay-friendly -- when he says it will be difficult.
Most of us have had all of the difficult work of integration already done for us. We abuse our forefathers when we pretend their struggles were simple.
Yes, all members of the military everywhere simply do what they're told. Someone should tell them to stop the "THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS."
Most of us have had all of the difficult work of integration already done for us. We abuse our forefathers when we pretend their struggles were simple.
The conservative thing to do, the SOLDIERLY thing to do, is to do what you're fucking told. If the brass says "here's your gay" you say "yes, sir".
Yes, all members of the military everywhere simply do what they're told. Someone should tell them to stop the "THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS."
39
While the brothers arguments may not be strong, it does show that there is some hesitation among the enlisted. Maybe thats why theres a "take time" approach.
Having said that...WTF?! Gay are there already. Take some white out and make the discriminatory rule disappear. End of "study".
Having said that...WTF?! Gay are there already. Take some white out and make the discriminatory rule disappear. End of "study".
40
We heard the same kind of arguments about women in combat units and gays in the military back when Canada allowed both in during the 80s.
Nothing happened. The world didn't end.
In fact, the units with more gay member or more women cross-trained in combat roles won lots of unit awards for higher efficiency.
It was, and I'll be frank, a non-event.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Nothing happened. The world didn't end.
In fact, the units with more gay member or more women cross-trained in combat roles won lots of unit awards for higher efficiency.
It was, and I'll be frank, a non-event.
Fear is the mind-killer.
41
The problem isn't gays in the military. The problem is assholes in the military. We send these people to foreign lands and ask them to win the hearts and minds of the locals among other thing. That takes a geat deal of patience understanding and empathy. If the assholes in the military can't respect other Americans in their own unit who are different from them, how the fuck are they going to respect Afghans and Iraqis? There is a serious problem here and it has nothing to do with DADT.
43
Well, thankfully we live in a democracy and the president, elected by the people, is in charge of the military.
Obama should just repeal the damn thing today.
Obama should just repeal the damn thing today.
44
@29 By assigning most of them to open bases so that they can sleep at home rather than in their barracks. So like Israel we would need to allow special treatments for gays. A perfect recipe to undermine cohesion.
45
@28 Loves... Er I mean Hateschild,
Do you know how much $$ goes into the training and education of preparing people for our military? Do you realize the incredible waste of your $$$ everytime a gay person is kicked out of the military- especially skilled Arabic translators? It is a waste on too many levels to even list here...
But according to your bible book of fairy tales the ends justify the means...
Do you realize your comments against allowing gays to openly serve in the military are the same arguments made about black soldiers being integrated with whites and Hispanics?
"...forced in any other job to daily share, bathroom, showers and bunks beds with (blacks)? The stress and anxiety that would be added to military men would only weaken our nations best."
As a (ignorant) black woman(?) you have obviously forgotten the long hard fought struggle it took to get you where you are...
Do you know how much $$ goes into the training and education of preparing people for our military? Do you realize the incredible waste of your $$$ everytime a gay person is kicked out of the military- especially skilled Arabic translators? It is a waste on too many levels to even list here...
But according to your bible book of fairy tales the ends justify the means...
Do you realize your comments against allowing gays to openly serve in the military are the same arguments made about black soldiers being integrated with whites and Hispanics?
"...forced in any other job to daily share, bathroom, showers and bunks beds with (blacks)? The stress and anxiety that would be added to military men would only weaken our nations best."
As a (ignorant) black woman(?) you have obviously forgotten the long hard fought struggle it took to get you where you are...
46
@38, yes, someone should. The brass condones the sexual abuse of women soldiers. That's why soldiers continue to get away with it.
47
You know, if we just got the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, it might be a whole lot easier for them to make the adjustment.
48
I have a problem with your brother watching a bootleg copy of Avatar (on his laptop?) and expecting to enjoy it. But I realize it's hard to find an Imax 3D theater in Basra.
49
@ Fnarf,
Thank you.
That's what's so infuriating about the "debate" over gays in the military. DADT doesn't keep gays out, it only promotes lying and dishonesty. There are tens of thousands of gays and lesbians in military right now.
Guess it's not any more submoronic than any other "debate" that goes on in this country, though. Death panels!!
Thank you.
That's what's so infuriating about the "debate" over gays in the military. DADT doesn't keep gays out, it only promotes lying and dishonesty. There are tens of thousands of gays and lesbians in military right now.
Guess it's not any more submoronic than any other "debate" that goes on in this country, though. Death panels!!
50
@28, this may be hard for you or so many other bigots to grasp, but if you have taken a shower in a gym locker room, then a homosexual has probably seen you naked. *gasp* I know--calm yourself--that this is a shock. Ignorance is bliss for some.
51
Perhaps policies have changed in the past ten years, but, last I heard, gay Israeli soldiers were not permitted to sleep in the regular barracks with straight soldiers. They were sent home at night. It's also important to note that Israel has compulsory service, which gives them an extra reason to (mostly) accept gays -- they don't want anyone to have an excuse not to serve.
I'm surprised at how little it ever gets mentioned that Israel's (badass) military is completely open to gay soldiers...
Perhaps policies have changed in the past ten years, but, last I heard, gay Israeli soldiers were not permitted to sleep in the regular barracks with straight soldiers. They were sent home at night. It's also important to note that Israel has compulsory service, which gives them an extra reason to (mostly) accept gays -- they don't want anyone to have an excuse not to serve.
53
@41 is on to something.
"Conservative" is codeword for "I don't have to understand or trust anything that isn't me," and nowhere more than in the military. But I think gay men currently serving are already respected more than any woman in the military. Especially in the Navy and Army, where women are openly disdained and sexism is like a sport.
As others have pointed out, "sensitivity training" shouldn't be necessary in the military - tolerance and equality should be an order that is followed.
"Conservative" is codeword for "I don't have to understand or trust anything that isn't me," and nowhere more than in the military. But I think gay men currently serving are already respected more than any woman in the military. Especially in the Navy and Army, where women are openly disdained and sexism is like a sport.
As others have pointed out, "sensitivity training" shouldn't be necessary in the military - tolerance and equality should be an order that is followed.
54
Christopher, I think you missed the more interesting question, which is assuming this change is coming, would it be less disruptive during one or two wars, when the gay troops in question will be proven as worthy comrades on the one hand, but there is a much larger chance of "fragged" being added to military lexicon without the R or if he thinks this would be somehow more comfortable during "peacetime".
55
I can't help but be reminded of my two summers touring with a drum and bugle corps.
It was a tight-knit competitive group with common goals, and for two months we were pushed to the limit both physically and mentally. We slept in close quarters (filled school gymnasiums with sleeping bags) and used communal showers. There are a couple corps that are male-only, and most if not all used to be male-only, but my corps was co-ed.
Add to that a large number of out color guard boys, and it's a very similar situation. Everyone regularly slept nearby and showered together, and I can't recall anyone seriously having a problem with it. They were our friends and comrades, not people we felt threatened by sexually. If a bunch of 13-22 year old kids can handle it with poise, I would hope the military boys could suck it up.
The big difference is that we didn't really have a "chain of command" among members. Other than section leaders and drum majors and staff, there wasn't much potential for "inappropriate" relationships like there is in the military. As many people have already pointed out, though, they already have this "problem" now with women serving.
It was a tight-knit competitive group with common goals, and for two months we were pushed to the limit both physically and mentally. We slept in close quarters (filled school gymnasiums with sleeping bags) and used communal showers. There are a couple corps that are male-only, and most if not all used to be male-only, but my corps was co-ed.
Add to that a large number of out color guard boys, and it's a very similar situation. Everyone regularly slept nearby and showered together, and I can't recall anyone seriously having a problem with it. They were our friends and comrades, not people we felt threatened by sexually. If a bunch of 13-22 year old kids can handle it with poise, I would hope the military boys could suck it up.
The big difference is that we didn't really have a "chain of command" among members. Other than section leaders and drum majors and staff, there wasn't much potential for "inappropriate" relationships like there is in the military. As many people have already pointed out, though, they already have this "problem" now with women serving.
56
@28 Do you know that thousands of gay people are already in the military? And everywhere else in society. We are not going away just because we make you uncomfortable.
57
@50 Uh huh, so in your mind you think that serving in the military is the same as going to a gym of your choice whenever you want. So you think our military men and women who put their lives on the line to secure our nation are bigots for having genuine concerns about their day to day personal living environment with open ( open ) homosexuals, who no doubt will assert their openness if this policy is repealed, even when those around them feel uncomfortable and are unable to function to their fullest capacity due to that.
59
My dear stepfather, who is a vet, tells me that MREs are the most disgusting substances pretending to be food ever invented.
61
Loveschild, How exactly would a soldier who is out affect anything? What difference would it make?
If you can answer this I would be suprised. If a soldier can't act to his fullest abilities because their fellow soldier is gay, perhaps then the problem lies with the straight soldier who obviously puts his own personal feelings and inadequacies over the mission and his job,
If you can answer this I would be suprised. If a soldier can't act to his fullest abilities because their fellow soldier is gay, perhaps then the problem lies with the straight soldier who obviously puts his own personal feelings and inadequacies over the mission and his job,
62
Why didn't you ask the important question: "When you get the order, will you do your duty and obey it, or are you a pathetic wimp preferring to be court marshaled?"
63
@61 You don't think that homosexuals will assert their openness ? You don't think issues of discomfort will arise from showering with someone known to be sexually attracted to those of his or her own gender ? You don't think that can be tantamount to allowing members of the opposite share the same showers, beds with the added problem that unlike the latter it wouldn't be something desired by the soldiers ?
64
If you're an emotionally fragile heterosexual male who lacks the social maturity and mental discipline to serve with gay men, you don't belong in the military.
It's way past time that the military stop recruiting, retaining and coddling weak, immature boys and reactionary assholes who just can't deal with people who are different from them like real, grown men do every day.
It's way past time that the military stop recruiting, retaining and coddling weak, immature boys and reactionary assholes who just can't deal with people who are different from them like real, grown men do every day.
65
@57, "So you think our military men and women who put their lives on the line to secure our nation are bigots for having genuine concerns about their day to day personal living environment with open ( open ) homosexuals"
Yes, yes I do think this and no "a homo saw my tweeter in the shower and I am too immature to deal with it" is not a genuine concern.
Yes, yes I do think this and no "a homo saw my tweeter in the shower and I am too immature to deal with it" is not a genuine concern.
66
They are soldiers. SEX SHOULD NEVER ENTER INTO THEIR DAILY LIVES. THere are already rules against male and female soldiers "hooking up." The same must then be applied to gay soldiers. And as it has been said a thousand times already, there are already gay soldier showering and bunking with hetero ones. It would be no different if the gay ones no longer have to lie and hide who they are as they serve our country.
Who cares if they assert their openenss. Gay soldiers have to deal with Hetero ones asserting their sexual identity so really what difference does it make?
Its a shame that you are still to this day such a bigoted idiot.
Who cares if they assert their openenss. Gay soldiers have to deal with Hetero ones asserting their sexual identity so really what difference does it make?
Its a shame that you are still to this day such a bigoted idiot.
67
@63: Last I checked, gay soldiers are still bound by the uniform code of conduct and various laws of the sort. Treating gay soldiers equally means equal punishment for misconduct.
To wit: crime is higher per capita within the black community, but are black soldiers restricted outright from certain types of duty because non-black soldiers are worried about their safety? Racism is rampant in the military, but black soldiers still serve openly and proudly. The ignorance of others should not govern whether or not an adult of sound mind and body can choose to join the military, especially if they bring enthusiasm and a desire to serve their country.
For someone who claims being gay is a changeable trait, you sure do like to flip your own arguments on their head by saying that gays will not be able to change their sexual attractions and are therefore a risk.
To wit: crime is higher per capita within the black community, but are black soldiers restricted outright from certain types of duty because non-black soldiers are worried about their safety? Racism is rampant in the military, but black soldiers still serve openly and proudly. The ignorance of others should not govern whether or not an adult of sound mind and body can choose to join the military, especially if they bring enthusiasm and a desire to serve their country.
For someone who claims being gay is a changeable trait, you sure do like to flip your own arguments on their head by saying that gays will not be able to change their sexual attractions and are therefore a risk.
68
See, LC, THIS is why we can call YOU a bigot and have it be 100% accurate and fair. It's one thing to support domestic partnerships (if you actually do), but it's something else to defend DADT. (Also, your anti-marriage equality rants usually betray your heart to us too.)
69
I'm not in the military, so my opinion does not carry a lot of weight.
It seems to me that it is the problem of the straight soldier to get over it if he or she has an issue, and to get over the idea that they are so dang hot that an openly gay soldier wants to jump their bones. Plenty of gays and straights alike resist the temptation of their hotness presently.
I think we will be okay. If allowing gays to serve openly hasn't destroyed other armed forces around the globe: Canada, UK, Australia, Israel, etc., it is not likely to destroy us either.
Oh, and all those crying out that we cannot survive this change, way to be a defeatist pussy. What happened to your AmeriCAN spirit. Chin up.
Ps. I agree with Fnarf @ 46.
Pps. Christopher thank you for sharing. It is good to hear that your brother is doing well. May he come home soon.
It seems to me that it is the problem of the straight soldier to get over it if he or she has an issue, and to get over the idea that they are so dang hot that an openly gay soldier wants to jump their bones. Plenty of gays and straights alike resist the temptation of their hotness presently.
I think we will be okay. If allowing gays to serve openly hasn't destroyed other armed forces around the globe: Canada, UK, Australia, Israel, etc., it is not likely to destroy us either.
Oh, and all those crying out that we cannot survive this change, way to be a defeatist pussy. What happened to your AmeriCAN spirit. Chin up.
Ps. I agree with Fnarf @ 46.
Pps. Christopher thank you for sharing. It is good to hear that your brother is doing well. May he come home soon.
70
@63, you stupid cunt, they're showering with gay men already. Why can you not grasp that obvious point? Oh, that's right -- because you are a pig-ignorant bigoted shitforbrains.
71
@66 It shouldn't but we know that's not necessarily how it always work and unlike rules in put place to prevent male and female intimate interactions such would be very difficult to set up and enforce for people of the same sex. Unless the U.S military is willing to create special rights for gays as have done other militaries that some use as examples for repealing our law.
72
@Loveschild
A gay man is not a heterosexual woman, regardless of the similarity in the objects of their affection.
Pick an argument, regardless of how foolish and baseless, and stick with it.
You've asserted that gay men are the same as heterosexual women and as such shouldn't be allowed to serve with heterosexual men. Attempting to demean gay men by associating them with women begs the question of how little you regard women in general.
Your reasoning is seriously fucked up.
You've also asserted that a gay man would be a predator in the showers against these poor, weak and defenseless little boys in the military. I take it that you've never actually met a real man in uniform because if you had, you know better than to categorize any of them as frightened of being sized up in the shower.
Again, pick an argument. You can't have it both ways in your argument against gay men in the military - gays are silly, little girls and gays are aggressive, sexual predators.
A gay man is not a heterosexual woman, regardless of the similarity in the objects of their affection.
Pick an argument, regardless of how foolish and baseless, and stick with it.
You've asserted that gay men are the same as heterosexual women and as such shouldn't be allowed to serve with heterosexual men. Attempting to demean gay men by associating them with women begs the question of how little you regard women in general.
Your reasoning is seriously fucked up.
You've also asserted that a gay man would be a predator in the showers against these poor, weak and defenseless little boys in the military. I take it that you've never actually met a real man in uniform because if you had, you know better than to categorize any of them as frightened of being sized up in the shower.
Again, pick an argument. You can't have it both ways in your argument against gay men in the military - gays are silly, little girls and gays are aggressive, sexual predators.
73
@66 It shouldn't but we know that's not necessarily how it always work and unlike rules put in place to prevent male and female intimate interactions such would be very difficult to set up and enforce for people of the same sex. Unless the U.S military is willing to create special rights for gays as have done other militaries that some use as examples for repealing our law.
.
.
74
@71 Loveschild the village idiot.
Different rules for gay soldiers? How exactly? The same fricken rules that apply between male and female soldiers are then just carried over to gay soldiers. EASY. How exactly would these be hard to set up?
"Oh you hetero boys, the rules state that you can't fuck any of the female soldiers...thats innapropriate. But you gay boys...feel free to go to town on all the cock in this platoon you want."
Seriously... is that how you see this happening.
OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES YOU IGNORANT BITCH.
Different rules for gay soldiers? How exactly? The same fricken rules that apply between male and female soldiers are then just carried over to gay soldiers. EASY. How exactly would these be hard to set up?
"Oh you hetero boys, the rules state that you can't fuck any of the female soldiers...thats innapropriate. But you gay boys...feel free to go to town on all the cock in this platoon you want."
Seriously... is that how you see this happening.
OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES YOU IGNORANT BITCH.
75
it's funny that you guys keep arguing with a trollbot --
"Stupid robot! Why won't you agree with us?"
"BEEP ARGUMENT ILLOGICAL. NEGATIVE RESPONSE BEEP"
"Stupid robot! Why won't you agree with us?"
"BEEP ARGUMENT ILLOGICAL. NEGATIVE RESPONSE BEEP"
77
This is a perfect example of Christopher Frizzelle's shitty attempt at hack writing. One conservative idiot's opinion of a policy that he's learned more about through his own warped methods rather than his actual experience in the military is irrelevant. This fucktard probably thinks he's in Iraq to hunt terrorists, too.
78
This is a perfect example of Christopher Frizzelle's shitty attempt at hack writing. One conservative idiot's opinion of a policy that he's learned more about through his own warped methods rather than his actual experience in the military is irrelevant. This fucktard probably thinks he's in Iraq to hunt terrorists, too.
If conservative bigots don't like gays serving in the military, then they should resign. END OF DEBATE.
If conservative bigots don't like gays serving in the military, then they should resign. END OF DEBATE.
79
so you pester and nag your brother about dadt when he obviously doesn't want to talk about it with you then post his remarks so a bunch of pansy fags can pick them apart-
you are a world class asshole prick.
you are a world class asshole prick.
81
As a gay member of the military I firmly believe that a repealing DADT will be a non-issue. Just like it is in ~27 other countries.
82
uh, gays are already IN the military...gays have ALWAYS been in the military (duh, same-sex society in exotic foreign lands!) Do people really think that once DADT is repealed, hordes of homos are going to storm recruitment stations? And, most of the rest of the civilized world already HAS gays in the military.
Why does ANYONE believe that Loveschild is real? She's blatantly fake like Ecce Homo...you NEVER see them at the same party.
Why does ANYONE believe that Loveschild is real? She's blatantly fake like Ecce Homo...you NEVER see them at the same party.
83
uh, gays are already IN the military...gays have ALWAYS been in the military (duh, same-sex society in exotic foreign lands!) Do people really think that once DADT is repealed, hordes of homos are going to storm recruitment stations? And, most of the rest of the civilized world already HAS gays in the military.
Why does ANYONE believe that Loveschild is real? She's blatantly fake like Ecce Homo...you NEVER see them at the same party.
Why does ANYONE believe that Loveschild is real? She's blatantly fake like Ecce Homo...you NEVER see them at the same party.
84
@Loveschild: My question is, why are you opposed to coddling gay soldiers by giving them their own area (which by your own admission is done in other military units without lose of cohesion) but you are so supportive of coddling straight soldiers by ensuring they experience no discomfort what-so-ever.
86
I'm gay an an two term veteran.
Christopher, your brother is HALF right.
Integrating open gays WILL cause problems. It WILL be difficult for some people. Nevetheless, it is the right thing to do.
It was difficult to integrate racial minorities. But they did it. It was (and still is) difficult to integrate women. But they did it.
The fact that it will be difficult and that it will cause problems is not a valid reason not to integrate gays into the military.
Christopher, your brother is HALF right.
Integrating open gays WILL cause problems. It WILL be difficult for some people. Nevetheless, it is the right thing to do.
It was difficult to integrate racial minorities. But they did it. It was (and still is) difficult to integrate women. But they did it.
The fact that it will be difficult and that it will cause problems is not a valid reason not to integrate gays into the military.
87
Mind you, once we end DADT, the next thing the closeted homophobic Christianists will go on about is bound to be gay marriage amongst military personnel or gay serving soldiers with gay husbands/wives.
Probably out of envy at their stable relationships is my guess.
Probably out of envy at their stable relationships is my guess.
88
@78 My brother's not a conservative bigot. He's a conservative who's voted for the liberal candidate in the last two presidential elections.
@79 I've written about my brother a lot and have his consent to write about and quote him.
@79 I've written about my brother a lot and have his consent to write about and quote him.
89
Countries that forbid gays in their military: Cuba, China, Egypt, Greece, Iran, Jamaica, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Singapore, South Korea, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela, Yemen, the USA.
Countries that allow gays to serve in their military: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the UK, Uruguay.
Which list would you rather be associated with?
These lists look a bit like the lists of countries that have or don't have the death penalty. Interesting.
Countries that allow gays to serve in their military: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the UK, Uruguay.
Which list would you rather be associated with?
These lists look a bit like the lists of countries that have or don't have the death penalty. Interesting.
90
My only familiarity with this situation comes from having been close to a Marine. And he was pretty crazy. He was too far right for the Republican Party.
Now I don't know if that's actually typical. But from what he told me about his experience, there is something about the way they're trained that messes with your head. Marines are taught to believe they're separate from, and better than, the rest of the population. That's how they motivate them to do difficult and terrifying things. This guy thought he was entitled to essentially be pretty brutish -- to beat up people who made him angry, to treat women like dirt, to drink to excess -- because he'd served his country. And I got the impression that that wasn't an uncommon attitude.
What the brother was too delicate to say, I think, is that openly gay servicemen will get ass-raped. Perhaps murdered.
It is expensive to protect people. What I've heard about women in the military is that they do have policies to keep them from being sexually assaulted, obviously not wholly effective, and often there's bureaucratic stupidity in these policies, and it costs a lot. Add gays and you have to do even more of that, and spend more resources to keep them from being attacked by their fellow soldiers.
Not that it isn't the right thing to do. I think repealing DADT would be a great victory. But that is the counterargument. "Loss of unit cohesion" is a euphemism for violence. Can we afford that inevitable rash of violence?
Now I don't know if that's actually typical. But from what he told me about his experience, there is something about the way they're trained that messes with your head. Marines are taught to believe they're separate from, and better than, the rest of the population. That's how they motivate them to do difficult and terrifying things. This guy thought he was entitled to essentially be pretty brutish -- to beat up people who made him angry, to treat women like dirt, to drink to excess -- because he'd served his country. And I got the impression that that wasn't an uncommon attitude.
What the brother was too delicate to say, I think, is that openly gay servicemen will get ass-raped. Perhaps murdered.
It is expensive to protect people. What I've heard about women in the military is that they do have policies to keep them from being sexually assaulted, obviously not wholly effective, and often there's bureaucratic stupidity in these policies, and it costs a lot. Add gays and you have to do even more of that, and spend more resources to keep them from being attacked by their fellow soldiers.
Not that it isn't the right thing to do. I think repealing DADT would be a great victory. But that is the counterargument. "Loss of unit cohesion" is a euphemism for violence. Can we afford that inevitable rash of violence?
91
@89: Which list would you rather be associated with? Well, the homophobic list is certainly more militarily intimidating.
92
@88 -- They missed the point. Pearls before swine.
I appreciate both your brother's service and his willingness to talk about it.
I appreciate both your brother's service and his willingness to talk about it.
93
@88 -- They missed the point. Pearls before swine.
I appreciate both your brother's service and his willingness to talk about it.
I appreciate both your brother's service and his willingness to talk about it.
95
Open heterosexuals in the military undermine it's cohesion and effectiveness. Just ask those women that are abused every day in the military. The Brass can hardly keep the open heterosexuals from causing mayhem and destroying morale. Gay folk would add one more layer to an already large and uncontrolled cluster fuck as they would insist everyone look good and shower first.
96
From twitter.com/BarackObama
RT @thejointstaff Stand by what I said: Allowing homosexuals to serve openly is the right thing to do. Comes down to integrity.
RT @thejointstaff Stand by what I said: Allowing homosexuals to serve openly is the right thing to do. Comes down to integrity.
97
"We got a lot of dumbass rednecks and general homophobes in the miliary. They would lose their shit if they had to work with known fags. Hell, they can't handle working with females yet!"
What a crock of shit.
What a crock of shit.
98
I find it incredibly moving that two brothers who would doubtless walk through fire (bullets or flames) for each other, still hold back a little bit and are awkward in discussing these issues that are so central to their lives. It is evocative of the conversations that so many of us have had with our families and friends, with much less at stake. It is to your great credit that you have both chosen to open yourselves publicly. Thanks.
99
I don't think it would be any more of a problem than the straight men who sexually harass and rape female soldiers in the US military. That's the dirty secret.
100
@63: Um, yeah, obviously all the big tough straight soldiers are going to be intimidated and humiliated and sexually harassed by the gay recruits they greatly outnumber. Right.
"You don't think that can be tantamount to allowing members of the opposite share the same showers, beds with the added problem that unlike the latter it wouldn't be something desired by the soldiers?" Loveschild, your 'swimming out to troopships' fantasy is showing again...
"You don't think that can be tantamount to allowing members of the opposite share the same showers, beds with the added problem that unlike the latter it wouldn't be something desired by the soldiers?" Loveschild, your 'swimming out to troopships' fantasy is showing again...
101
As a vet, who was in combat, and was in the army before DADT:
I would rather have any of the several gay soldiers that I served with in a foxhole with me over the bigots. Homophobes and bigots were the most dangerous thing I had to deal with in the military. The (some of them openly) gay soldiers that I served with were the model soldiers of my combat unit. I lived with a bigot who blamed Blacks, Jews, and "Faggots" for everything that was wrong in the world. The fuckhead was so dumb he never realized Wise could be a jewish name. I didn't have to deal with him for long as, SURPRISE, he was kicked out of the Army for his violent acts against other soldiers. Bonus: he was from Fire Island, NY.
That being said, the openly (as much as you can be in the Army) gay soldiers had special housing above the battalion CQ so anybody that came to visit had to go by a guard. The quietly open and closeted showered right next to me and I didn't give a shit. Most of the good soldiers didn't either. Still, the unit had to provide special housing to ensure shitheads like my roommate didn't attack them for being different.
I would rather have any of the several gay soldiers that I served with in a foxhole with me over the bigots. Homophobes and bigots were the most dangerous thing I had to deal with in the military. The (some of them openly) gay soldiers that I served with were the model soldiers of my combat unit. I lived with a bigot who blamed Blacks, Jews, and "Faggots" for everything that was wrong in the world. The fuckhead was so dumb he never realized Wise could be a jewish name. I didn't have to deal with him for long as, SURPRISE, he was kicked out of the Army for his violent acts against other soldiers. Bonus: he was from Fire Island, NY.
That being said, the openly (as much as you can be in the Army) gay soldiers had special housing above the battalion CQ so anybody that came to visit had to go by a guard. The quietly open and closeted showered right next to me and I didn't give a shit. Most of the good soldiers didn't either. Still, the unit had to provide special housing to ensure shitheads like my roommate didn't attack them for being different.
103
Yeah this is really more illustrative of the obsitcles faced by gays in the military then actualy reasons for not repealing it.
By saying simply it would cause problems, then the bigotry itself becomes its own justification. Amazing.
By saying simply it would cause problems, then the bigotry itself becomes its own justification. Amazing.
104
@89, i would say russia's and north korea's side. Russia has the nukes and NK has the big ass army. we would kick anyone's ass. maybe even the Empire (with disabled tractorbeam).
105
@90- I've known a couple ex-marines, and I wouldn't say your acquaintance was exactly typical. They're proud of the Corps and believe (with a lot of justification) that Marines are the hardest working branch of the military and a brotherhood of tough motherfuckers. They tend to be conservative. But my acquaintances don't think that means they get to be violent alcoholics. They have a bunch of bar fight stories which usually revolve around drinking near a base and mixing it up with some guys from another unit or some drunk townie, but it's not how they live their life now. In fact they generally hold the belief that they should be better behaved because is disciplined.
But of course every group has it's bad apples, and there are a lot of people out in the Red States who think Supporting Our Troops(tm) means never questioning a person who wore a uniform.
But of course every group has it's bad apples, and there are a lot of people out in the Red States who think Supporting Our Troops(tm) means never questioning a person who wore a uniform.
106
"like you can lose your job for having an affair
if your married, or the person you sleep with is married
enlisted to officer dating, you can losr your job
and, if if two guys in my platoon are in a relationship, that would cause so many problems"
BAN WOMEN FROM THE ARMED FORCES RIGHT NOW.
if your married, or the person you sleep with is married
enlisted to officer dating, you can losr your job
and, if if two guys in my platoon are in a relationship, that would cause so many problems"
BAN WOMEN FROM THE ARMED FORCES RIGHT NOW.
107
God I can't wait to join the military to suck some cock. That's why us gays ever do anything and we have no self control. Just imagine all those cocks. Mmmm.... especially the black cock. mmmmm..... some haters just have sand in their vagina.
108
@105 -- fair enough. My experience is limited. It's a relief to hear that most of them are decent.
109
I don't know if anyone else has posted this, but it just seems to be really perfect timing.
http://www.avclub.com/articles/military-…
http://www.avclub.com/articles/military-…
110
@107: Word, girlfriend! They're just worried we'll turn all the straight boys with our fabulous deep-throating and ass-offering.
111
There have been gays in the military for centuries. But they probably weren't known to be gay so no one noticed anything "different" about them. Funny how that works. It would be interesting to know how many gays discharged from the military for being gay had been in the military for years -- i.e., they'd been assumed to be straight.
If you're a soldier for at least several years and nobody's known you're gay, I fail to see how you've been injurying people, or what the "problem" is.
If you're a soldier for at least several years and nobody's known you're gay, I fail to see how you've been injurying people, or what the "problem" is.
112
@90- Excellent points about cost of protection. The stupid fuckups are the ones who get into the Army and will always out number gays. Tangible cost to 'integrate'. Thanks.
@101- From my partner's pre-DADT service, this matches up. Folks 'knew' but it just wasn't discussed, and if you weren't an asshole, they stuck by you. Kind of like real life.
I think the military's idea to stop enforcing based on vendetta outing is a big step. My partner was outed to his superiors during his term. Room-mate (fellow soldier) accidently overheard gay sex. His CO told my partner he could A)have him out of the service tomorrow, if that was what he wanted. Or B) he could shut up and so would the CO and it never happened. Partner chose B and finished the remaining 3 years of his term. But the CO liked him and respected his service. This type of thing occurs under DADT way more more frequently than the discharges, because most people are reasonable. But the partner DID shutup about it; never told a soul during his service.
@101- From my partner's pre-DADT service, this matches up. Folks 'knew' but it just wasn't discussed, and if you weren't an asshole, they stuck by you. Kind of like real life.
I think the military's idea to stop enforcing based on vendetta outing is a big step. My partner was outed to his superiors during his term. Room-mate (fellow soldier) accidently overheard gay sex. His CO told my partner he could A)have him out of the service tomorrow, if that was what he wanted. Or B) he could shut up and so would the CO and it never happened. Partner chose B and finished the remaining 3 years of his term. But the CO liked him and respected his service. This type of thing occurs under DADT way more more frequently than the discharges, because most people are reasonable. But the partner DID shutup about it; never told a soul during his service.
113
I am pretty sure that straight sex is against the rules while deployed in combat areas so logically if they allowed gayness gay sex would simply be subject to the no fucking while in combat areas rules
114
For many months people have organized to complain that Obama was not taking action. Now he needs our support. Where is the organizing now?
He was working behind the scenes, actually making things happen instead of just talking. With military top brass supporting him, it's basically a done deal. Could it have happened faster any other way? I doubt it. Through introducing a law into congress? Hardly possible. Through an executive order that would split his own party and paralyze any attempts to get things done on other fronts? Please. This is how real power is exercised - it's strategic and smart.
Marriage equality will come soon. Not soon enough in my book, but probably as soon as is politically possible.
He was working behind the scenes, actually making things happen instead of just talking. With military top brass supporting him, it's basically a done deal. Could it have happened faster any other way? I doubt it. Through introducing a law into congress? Hardly possible. Through an executive order that would split his own party and paralyze any attempts to get things done on other fronts? Please. This is how real power is exercised - it's strategic and smart.
Marriage equality will come soon. Not soon enough in my book, but probably as soon as is politically possible.
115
There are multiple arguments, right?
1. Gays should not be in the military because being gay s morally wrong. (That does not hold water.)
2. Gays should not be in the military because many in the military are not culturally ready for that and might physically attack anyone who is gay. (Not an ethically valid argument, but reasonably practical.)
3. Gays should not be in the military because romantic relationships can be dangerous in combat situations. (This one makes more sense to me, but I see no reason why gays can't serve in non-combat or non-team oriented situations.)
1. Gays should not be in the military because being gay s morally wrong. (That does not hold water.)
2. Gays should not be in the military because many in the military are not culturally ready for that and might physically attack anyone who is gay. (Not an ethically valid argument, but reasonably practical.)
3. Gays should not be in the military because romantic relationships can be dangerous in combat situations. (This one makes more sense to me, but I see no reason why gays can't serve in non-combat or non-team oriented situations.)
116
Sorry but I just don't understand why any self respecting gay person would want to work around a bunch of straight, overly macho soldiers. Sounds like an experience worse than hell. I worked as a tutor for college football players to help them maintain their NCAA eligibility. What a bunch of freaks. Learned real fast to keep my mouth shut about my sexual orientation. Since the neanderthals thought being gay meant you wore dresses they never suspected that I was gay. But the whole experience taught me - why would you want to be around a bunch of people who don't want you there? They will simply make it their life mission to torture you or kill you. So, I say, "to hell with them". Let the straights go off and fight their wars. Straight people start wars so let them sacrifice for it.
117
Pretty terrible argument. As a reader wrote to Sullivan this morning (don't know if we can post links but see "A Question of Integrity, Ctd" on Daily Dish), change has to start somewhere, and that somewhere is now with this administration. Obama is smart in using military leadership to enforce a top down change. I keep hearing this argument that military is way more conservative than civilian life, well that may be the case, but it's time to start rolling back that conservatism.
I'm a regular SLOG reader out in DC, but very disappointed with this post. Sending away two women chefs? Unreal, like friggin middle school. Why is it that two openly gay men in the military would automatically be in a relationship?
I'm a regular SLOG reader out in DC, but very disappointed with this post. Sending away two women chefs? Unreal, like friggin middle school. Why is it that two openly gay men in the military would automatically be in a relationship?
120
Having grown up near a military base, with an uncle who was an officer, I have to say that the military isn't so much "conservative" as it is afraid of change and somewhat inmature.
I know that sounds elitist, but what I mean is that most of the people in the military are young - hence the inmature part - and the rest are set in their ways - hence the afraid of change part (Career military folks are a lot like union folks, but that's another topic entirely).
Just a casual glance at most towns surrounding military bases will tell you that the people are not truly conservative. True, there's a million opportunistic churches, but there's usually twice as many bars, adult bookstores, and other vice-related industries.
I really don't think the military would have much of a problem, particularly since there's not as many gay people as there are straight people to begin with, and I really don't think repeal of DADT will cause a sudden influx of gays into military service.
In my opinion, the people who will have the most trouble will be the closet queens. By that, I don't mean the self-acknowledged gay people who have to stay in the closet to keep serving, but rather the tormented homophobes who are afraid of their urges.
I know that sounds elitist, but what I mean is that most of the people in the military are young - hence the inmature part - and the rest are set in their ways - hence the afraid of change part (Career military folks are a lot like union folks, but that's another topic entirely).
Just a casual glance at most towns surrounding military bases will tell you that the people are not truly conservative. True, there's a million opportunistic churches, but there's usually twice as many bars, adult bookstores, and other vice-related industries.
I really don't think the military would have much of a problem, particularly since there's not as many gay people as there are straight people to begin with, and I really don't think repeal of DADT will cause a sudden influx of gays into military service.
In my opinion, the people who will have the most trouble will be the closet queens. By that, I don't mean the self-acknowledged gay people who have to stay in the closet to keep serving, but rather the tormented homophobes who are afraid of their urges.
121
Gotta love how all these supposedly-liberal commenters are bagging all over the conservative commenter by calling him/her a "cunt" and a "bitch". Way to go, you hypocritical jerks. I'm sorry I happen to agree with your feelings about DADT, it makes me feel dirty to find myself in such company.
123
"Are you forced in any other job to daily share, bathroom, showers and bunks beds with others ? The stress and anxiety that would be added to military men and women would only weaken our nations best. And in the end for what ? Just to please people like you. There's nothing to be gain by the military to allow open homosexuality."
Yes, because sleeping next to a SECRETLY gay man is SO much less stressful. Nothing makes an issue less anxiety inducing than pretending it doesnt exist.
As for nothing to be gained by the military allowing open homosexuality....I'm sorry but, the huge troop of desperately needed arabic translators that got dismissed due to DADT might like a word with you.
Why post something so easily proven wrong that 5 seconds on google would discredit it? Do you honestly expect people to be that lazy?
Yes, because sleeping next to a SECRETLY gay man is SO much less stressful. Nothing makes an issue less anxiety inducing than pretending it doesnt exist.
As for nothing to be gained by the military allowing open homosexuality....I'm sorry but, the huge troop of desperately needed arabic translators that got dismissed due to DADT might like a word with you.
Why post something so easily proven wrong that 5 seconds on google would discredit it? Do you honestly expect people to be that lazy?
124
@120- "Just a casual glance at most towns surrounding military bases will tell you that the people are not truly conservative. True, there's a million opportunistic churches, but there's usually twice as many bars, adult bookstores, and other vice-related industries."
Which sounds like a lot of very conservative areas to me. They make a lot of noise about morality, they buy a lot of porn and they drink heavily. They punish their daughters for having sex and encourage their sons to get laid.
Which sounds like a lot of very conservative areas to me. They make a lot of noise about morality, they buy a lot of porn and they drink heavily. They punish their daughters for having sex and encourage their sons to get laid.
125
Damn, I want to like your brother. He still sounds cool (I appreciate that he was honest), but his arguments are ridiculous. If he had the intelligence to part with his party on Kerry and Obama, I would think that he could muster those conservative bones and realize that he is there to do a JOB, and that another's personal life really has nothing to do with him.
Oh, maybe he's just young, and unwilling to be right on this issue. Weird that so many other countries are not experiencing problems with this. I'd like to think we are (at least) as capable of being professional as those countries. Maybe our troops aren't as tough as we'd like to think. Nancy boys.
Or maybe it was unfair for you to publish his candid thoughts. Perhaps if he had been given a little time to think it through, he would've come to a better conclusion. Also, your side of the conversation reminded me of Zelig. Come on, Christopher: you're the big brother; you have responsibilities. His views reflect that you're not doing YOUR job.
Oh, maybe he's just young, and unwilling to be right on this issue. Weird that so many other countries are not experiencing problems with this. I'd like to think we are (at least) as capable of being professional as those countries. Maybe our troops aren't as tough as we'd like to think. Nancy boys.
Or maybe it was unfair for you to publish his candid thoughts. Perhaps if he had been given a little time to think it through, he would've come to a better conclusion. Also, your side of the conversation reminded me of Zelig. Come on, Christopher: you're the big brother; you have responsibilities. His views reflect that you're not doing YOUR job.
127
I may cause problems, but so have a lot of things in the military. They had to re-vamp basic training to make it easier. Initiation rituals are still done, but not to the same extent. Women have a hard time, but that is slowing changing. I mean, things have to be bad before they can get better. People have to deal with the reality of life, and slowly warm up to it.
I also don't see how it would be a problem, as long as the rule was you can't date someone in your unit. Period (men and women). Sure, here and there you might have people breaking the rules, but that happens regardless of the rule.
My only fear is of the gay guys getting beaten up, or dying from fratricide. Maybe that is what you brother is hinting at? I mean, in Vietnam there were many cases of "accidental" friendly fire....and I wonder how long it would take for the first gay man to be accidentally killed in combat.
I also don't see how it would be a problem, as long as the rule was you can't date someone in your unit. Period (men and women). Sure, here and there you might have people breaking the rules, but that happens regardless of the rule.
My only fear is of the gay guys getting beaten up, or dying from fratricide. Maybe that is what you brother is hinting at? I mean, in Vietnam there were many cases of "accidental" friendly fire....and I wonder how long it would take for the first gay man to be accidentally killed in combat.
128
Here's the thing: soldiers are built. They enter the military, are mentally and physically broken down and reassembled into a mental and physical profile that makes them good soldiers.
Couldn't part of that breaking down/building up include acceptance training? One would hope that such training would already be part of the military, given the variety of different cultures a soldier encounters, but I'm guessing, given the amount of intolerance we're seeing, that it is not.
I can't grasp that these strong men and women, who deal mentally and physically daily with things more trying than most of us can even imagine, can't find a little bit of fortitude to just get the hell over it, and accept people of every sort. Such aversion to gays in the military seems like the sort of mental weakness that should disqualify someone from being a soldier.
Couldn't part of that breaking down/building up include acceptance training? One would hope that such training would already be part of the military, given the variety of different cultures a soldier encounters, but I'm guessing, given the amount of intolerance we're seeing, that it is not.
I can't grasp that these strong men and women, who deal mentally and physically daily with things more trying than most of us can even imagine, can't find a little bit of fortitude to just get the hell over it, and accept people of every sort. Such aversion to gays in the military seems like the sort of mental weakness that should disqualify someone from being a soldier.
129
A poll from the Army Times I posted in an earlier DADT thread, but as it was the last comment, might have been missed.
http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/1…
That's actually pretty low % of people who say they will leave. Considering the economy, not many are likely to actually go through with it, and those that do leave are probably not the brightest stars in the sky so can be replaced relatively easily.
http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/1…
That's actually pretty low % of people who say they will leave. Considering the economy, not many are likely to actually go through with it, and those that do leave are probably not the brightest stars in the sky so can be replaced relatively easily.
130
it so fucking insulting how all these "straight" people get decide about my value in this or that. fuck off already!
131
FYI -- my nephew is a Marine, serving over there right now in one of those tents in the desert.
i specificlly asked him about DADT, and he said he honestly DOESN'T CARE about the issue. he thinks gays should be allowed to be themselves and serve openly in the military.
he's 20, straight, conservative, former football player, raised evangelical in Texas, and says that's the attitude of everyone he knows in his age group.
we are very proud of him!
i specificlly asked him about DADT, and he said he honestly DOESN'T CARE about the issue. he thinks gays should be allowed to be themselves and serve openly in the military.
he's 20, straight, conservative, former football player, raised evangelical in Texas, and says that's the attitude of everyone he knows in his age group.
we are very proud of him!
132
He said it would be hard. Anyone who thinks it won't be hard is completely out of touch. Let's take a quick look at who/where the military gets most of it's recruits: southern states, low income, low education, minorities, etc. Pretty much the center of anti-gay sentiment.
Obviously gays SHOULD be allowed to serve openly. To say otherwise is to be bigoted. But to just say "fuck it, lets do this now, screw these bigots" and think everyone's going to be cool tomorrow is also stupid. This is the nation's biggest fraternity/Boys club. People don't have a right to be hateful, but they are - and we have to be realistic about the repercussions. I think opening the military carefully/gracefully and with education is a good idea.
Obviously gays SHOULD be allowed to serve openly. To say otherwise is to be bigoted. But to just say "fuck it, lets do this now, screw these bigots" and think everyone's going to be cool tomorrow is also stupid. This is the nation's biggest fraternity/Boys club. People don't have a right to be hateful, but they are - and we have to be realistic about the repercussions. I think opening the military carefully/gracefully and with education is a good idea.
133
@132, wrong wrong wrong.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Nationa…
"In summary, the additional years of recruit data (2004–2005) support the previous finding that U.S. military recruits are more similar than dissimilar to the American youth population. The slight differences are that wartime U.S. military enlistees are better educated, wealthier, and more rural on average than their civilian peers."
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Nationa…
"In summary, the additional years of recruit data (2004–2005) support the previous finding that U.S. military recruits are more similar than dissimilar to the American youth population. The slight differences are that wartime U.S. military enlistees are better educated, wealthier, and more rural on average than their civilian peers."
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