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News & ArtsTuesday, February 2, 2010
Religion Evangelicals Embrace Extreme Fighting to Attract Young Men
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:10 AM
Oy:
“Hard punches!” he shouted from the sidelines of a martial arts event called Cage Assault. “Finish the fight! To the head! To the head!”The young man was a member of a fight team at Xtreme Ministries, a small church near Nashville that doubles as a mixed martial arts academy. Mr. Renken, who founded the church and academy, doubles as the team’s coach. The school’s motto is “Where Feet, Fist and Faith Collide.”
Mr. Renken’s ministry is one of a small but growing number of evangelical churches that have embraced mixed martial arts—a sport with a reputation for violence and blood that combines kickboxing, wrestling and other fighting styles—to reach and convert young men, whose church attendance has been persistently low.
Why not vibrating pocket pussies and streaming hard-core porn?
2
Aren't these similar to the evangelicals who believe that yoga is cultist and anti-Christian? How do they square the martial arts with Christianity?
6
"Why not vibrating pocket pussies and streaming hard-core porn?"
Well, goodness gracious, that would never fit in to their self-hating closeted homo thang!
Well, goodness gracious, that would never fit in to their self-hating closeted homo thang!
7
Shhhh don't tell the evangelicals that when they bow to the mat before entering they are worshiping an idol. This is a tradition that goes back to the Shinto faith of Japan. I for one won't mind sitting back and letting them break one of the commandments (potentially more?).
10
I think it is time that these "churches" lose their non-profit status and start paying taxes like the rest of us.
11
Also it should be noted that MMA consists of a bunch of sweaty dudes wrestling. The idea is to get your opponent on the ground and "mount" their back. Then you might cut off their breathing just a bit and slap em around. Sounds like homoerotic BDSM to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHPVJ4UaK…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHPVJ4UaK…
12
So, let's keep score, shall we? When it comes to evangelical Christianity...
Bad: sex, swearing, porn, booze, drugs, secular music, comprehensive sex education, adult themes, etc.
Good: EXTREME VIOLENCE!!!! YEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAW!
Because beating the crap out of your Christian bretheren is much more virtuous than having a beer or jacking off. Right, got it.
Bad: sex, swearing, porn, booze, drugs, secular music, comprehensive sex education, adult themes, etc.
Good: EXTREME VIOLENCE!!!! YEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAW!
Because beating the crap out of your Christian bretheren is much more virtuous than having a beer or jacking off. Right, got it.
13
There's a "skate church" on California Avenue that is in the same vein. Gotta keep those tithes rolling in, or the minister might actually have to do some real work.
14
Dan you called the sport "Extreme Fighting" but it is actually called "Mixed Martial Arts" which you mentioned in the body. The sport is actually a legitimate sport that is considerably less dangerous that boxing or football. I personally enjoy the sport and I have to say the most violent people are always the ones with cross tattoos that label themselves a "hardcore christian warrior" or "warrior for Jesus." Those guys are nuts and need to read the bible more than just what Leviticus is tattooed on them.
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
15
Hmm .... on the one hand a sport on the other the promotion of promiscuity and pornography.
How difficult it is for those who have surrendered their lives completely to sexual acts, they're unable to distinguish.
How difficult it is for those who have surrendered their lives completely to sexual acts, they're unable to distinguish.
16
I'm with Hernandez.
Extreme violence = good? WTF!?
Love your enemies and pray for those who abuse you, I guess that fits with cage matches???
Extreme violence = good? WTF!?
Love your enemies and pray for those who abuse you, I guess that fits with cage matches???
17
I'm with 11 on this--all that sweating and wrestling and barefoot kicking seems really gay to me . . . not that there's anything wrong with that. Not. At. All.
18
I'm more of an "if someone strikes you on the right cheek, it's a good time to pull out the .45" kind of guy.
19
All I have to say is...I am all for this! It is better to give than to recive and nothing exemplifies this better than giving someone a good ass kicking...it is better to give an ass kicking than to recive an ass kicking.
20
Mixed martial arts is indeed intense, but characterizing it as violence misses the mark. Which contact sports are not "violent"?
The bigger point for me is the weird linking of the sport to religion and church. It makes no sense. One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.
But then, religion isn't supposed to make sense otherwise they wouldn't need faith as an explanation for any little thing.
The bigger point for me is the weird linking of the sport to religion and church. It makes no sense. One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.
But then, religion isn't supposed to make sense otherwise they wouldn't need faith as an explanation for any little thing.
21
Hmmm ... Only problem Jesus' message was one of non-violence, justice and compassion, the kingdom of God is a kingdom of peace, so promoting one person to beat another does not fit the call.
What was that?? Blessed are the peacemakers! No, really?? Yup, cage fighting sounds like great peacemaker practice. Sheesh.
What was that?? Blessed are the peacemakers! No, really?? Yup, cage fighting sounds like great peacemaker practice. Sheesh.
23
Turning the other cheek is not meant to be a set up for a roundhouse kick!
It's just churches pandering to the kids to get them to show up. It'll last 2 weeks until the kids in the church mma thing get their asses kicked by real mma fighters who'll taunt them for learning from the church instead of a real gym and then they'll wanna go with them to learn how to do it the non-pussy way.
It's just churches pandering to the kids to get them to show up. It'll last 2 weeks until the kids in the church mma thing get their asses kicked by real mma fighters who'll taunt them for learning from the church instead of a real gym and then they'll wanna go with them to learn how to do it the non-pussy way.
25
@20 Well, all contact sports are violent. That in and of itself isn't a problem. I just think the confluence of piety and violence is odd. Hell, I like watching violent contact sports and played them throughout my youth, but I never though for a second that such things should be integrated into religious practice.
26
@20 Look at football or boxing. The other two very popular violent sports. There is praying together before the big game. Sometimes the crowd gets involved. Also in boxing matches many people will thank god first and rant about how he gets credit for all of their hard work.
It is preaching to the choir here (har har) but I think we can all agree that violence makes a person a bad Christian. I don't see a problem with a little violence in society. It is like sex and drugs, people are going to do it anyway so it should be safe and sane and regulated. The bible speaks out against basically of all these things.
It is preaching to the choir here (har har) but I think we can all agree that violence makes a person a bad Christian. I don't see a problem with a little violence in society. It is like sex and drugs, people are going to do it anyway so it should be safe and sane and regulated. The bible speaks out against basically of all these things.
27
MMA is most definitely a legitimate sport, utilizing strike based martial arts as well as ground fighting. There is unfortunately a great deal of douchebaggery in the culture surrounding it, but there is a difference between those who do legitimate training and those who wear Ed Hardy and hang out in Taco Bell parking lots revving their car engines and trying to start fights with customers.
That said, I have to admit that I take great amusement in turning off the sound and putting on a Barry White album while watching UFC. If you want a laugh, try it some time.
That said, I have to admit that I take great amusement in turning off the sound and putting on a Barry White album while watching UFC. If you want a laugh, try it some time.
28
there's a skate church in West Seattle as well - they sell their candy bars undercutting the price of everyone else in the neighborhood to attract the little sugar junkies in the door
29
Anyone who can't reconcile how violence and the Jesus cult people go hand in hand simply hasn't paid any attention to human history.
30
How difficult it is for those who have surrendered their lives completely to sexual acts, they're unable to distinguish.
Kind of like when you say it's okay for a country to impose the death penalty on homosexuals? How difficult it must be for you, who've surrendered your life to a blind and ignorant faith to which you are the sole self-appointed gatekeeper to recognize those who are just as hypocritical as yourself.
Kind of like when you say it's okay for a country to impose the death penalty on homosexuals? How difficult it must be for you, who've surrendered your life to a blind and ignorant faith to which you are the sole self-appointed gatekeeper to recognize those who are just as hypocritical as yourself.
32
I'm constantly impressed with the adaptability of this Christianity. First they were the persecuted (under the Romans), then they converted the Romans & beat-up the Middle East, and stepped on Europe's indigineous cultural traditions (cf. Imbolc).
Ffwd to the USA: They maintain the majority here, yet still claim to be persecuted. Some drink, some are teetotallers, some are peaceful, some fight, some own guns, some play folk music, some play heavy metal (Stryper, FTW!), some engage in polygamy, some are celebate, some are strict monogamists, some find justification for BDSM in marriage, some self-flagellate, some brain-wash their children, some are free-thinkers, some volunteer for the needy, some are bank-owning capitalists.... Its goes on and on.
This Christianity, very flexible belief structure. No "one way" to do it, apparently, and some ways in complete opposition to others. All of it allegedly springing from that one book too, The Bible.
Tis a mystery to me.
Ffwd to the USA: They maintain the majority here, yet still claim to be persecuted. Some drink, some are teetotallers, some are peaceful, some fight, some own guns, some play folk music, some play heavy metal (Stryper, FTW!), some engage in polygamy, some are celebate, some are strict monogamists, some find justification for BDSM in marriage, some self-flagellate, some brain-wash their children, some are free-thinkers, some volunteer for the needy, some are bank-owning capitalists.... Its goes on and on.
This Christianity, very flexible belief structure. No "one way" to do it, apparently, and some ways in complete opposition to others. All of it allegedly springing from that one book too, The Bible.
Tis a mystery to me.
33
@15: Now I know why your home life is so fractured.
You don't have to take this, Loveschild. You can leave. Domestic violence is not something you should take from anyone at any time.
You don't have to take this, Loveschild. You can leave. Domestic violence is not something you should take from anyone at any time.
34
Welcome to Fight Church. The first rule of Fight Church is: you do talk about Fight Church, to help us recruit impressionable naive young men. The second rule of Fight Church is: you DO talk about Fight Church, GIMME AN AMEN!! Third rule of Fight Church: if someone yells "stop!", goes limp(sad), or taps out, the fight is over, and you scored one for CHRIST. Fourth rule: only two guys to a fight, otherwise it'd be too much like a bathhouse during fleet week . Fifth rule: one fight at a time, fellas, let the testosterone build, no reason to blow your wad too soon . Sixth rule: the fights are bare knuckle. No shirt, no shoes, no lube. Seventh rule: fights will go on as long as they have to, Jesus was in a submission hold for three days. And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Church, you have to fight, give it up for God, as they say.
35
@15: Hmmm, on the one hand something that attracts young men, on the other something that also attracts young men, if in a somewhat more visceral way.
How difficult it is for those cuntwhorebitches who have surrendered their lives completely to blathering proselytizing, they're unable to distinguish irony from an actual suggestion.
How difficult it is for those cuntwhorebitches who have surrendered their lives completely to blathering proselytizing, they're unable to distinguish irony from an actual suggestion.
36
Hey dammit! The first rule of Evangelical Fight Club is:
"Don't talk about Evangelical Fight Club!"
I'm gonna start kicking ass!
"Don't talk about Evangelical Fight Club!"
I'm gonna start kicking ass!
38
It's not as surprising a pairing when you realize that MMA (and martial arts in general) tend to have a strongly conservative culture, in addition to the whole "macho" thing, that attracts the same sort of people that are usually attracted to the zanier evangelical churches in the first place.
That said, Brazilian jujitsu, a major component of MMA, is INCREDIBLY gay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Aab2_CZt…), and somehow I doubt the churches are shelling out for coaches decent enough to do a significant amount of winning. I give this trend a few months, tops.
That said, Brazilian jujitsu, a major component of MMA, is INCREDIBLY gay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Aab2_CZt…), and somehow I doubt the churches are shelling out for coaches decent enough to do a significant amount of winning. I give this trend a few months, tops.
39
@38 I don't see this as a trend. I personally do BJJ and I have to say that a lot of people give a conservative vibe. Lots of cops and security guards. Also if you look at who is winning in MMA right now tons of them are either evangelical or some form of conservative christian. I don't think this is going anywhere, it's not like the christian athletes are losing.
40
It's only gay if you make eye contact: http://jujitsugay.ytmnd.com/
MMA is all about Brazillian Jujitsu, btw, which is pretty different from traditional Jujitsu.
@7- I've seen websites for Dojos run by evangelicals which make a big deal out of the fact they don't do bowing. I really like the bowing myself, but I'm a big old agnostic who likes showing respect to the people and history a dojo represents.
MMA is all about Brazillian Jujitsu, btw, which is pretty different from traditional Jujitsu.
@7- I've seen websites for Dojos run by evangelicals which make a big deal out of the fact they don't do bowing. I really like the bowing myself, but I'm a big old agnostic who likes showing respect to the people and history a dojo represents.
41
@21 Kim: Did Jesus ask --in a non-violent, peaceful way, of course--- the money lenders to leave the temple??
Christians have made what Jesus said and did a myriad of choices for millienia..
Christians have made what Jesus said and did a myriad of choices for millienia..
42
And the lord sayeth upon them "hey, you! Go kick that guy's ass. That would be wicked cool" and they did and the lord was pleased.
43
i've been practicing BJJ for three years and recently started Muay Thai. im gonna agree with dwight @ 40 just a wee. yes there is a conservative type, but there is also a lot of us in the mixed martial arts and competetive world that are not conservative. lots of tats, hipsters, progressives as well. i know a few openly gay cats that practice brazilian jiu jitsu and can roll with the best of em. and though there are a lot of conservative types is certainly not all of them. i think the gracies in brazil are certainly a bit conservative and royce gracie is certainly a conservative cat.
now there are people that do MMA to mess around and beat on each other and that is not what we do nor is that what this is all about.
i do hate when the evangelicals get into the sport i love. but lets be clear here. is not just MMA, theyre also infiltrating, skate boarding, snow boarding and any other alt or hip sport that they can use to have access to people, it is not just mixed martial arts or Extreme fighting as dan calls it.
now there are people that do MMA to mess around and beat on each other and that is not what we do nor is that what this is all about.
i do hate when the evangelicals get into the sport i love. but lets be clear here. is not just MMA, theyre also infiltrating, skate boarding, snow boarding and any other alt or hip sport that they can use to have access to people, it is not just mixed martial arts or Extreme fighting as dan calls it.
44
Hartipie @ 41:
Who knows the exact truth? What is known is that the first of the Gospel narratives, that would be Mark's, showed up around 70 CE give or take a few years during the Jewish Wars. Some 30 years after the crucifiction of Jesus. Seeing that Mark's gospel is the eldest and appears to have been the template for the rest, we will have to look at that one, and it says that he cleared the temple and he overturned some tables, possibly violent, but likely not. The reason I say this, is because the Temple courts were filled with Roman officers, Pilate was in town for Passover, because Passover brought many of the faithful into Jerusalem and the Romans were aware that the Jewish people were very unhappy at being occupied, the extreme taxation they were under, and that the Roman faith saw Caesar as divine and was to be worshiped as God. There had already been numerous uprisings against Roman rule, resulting in multiple executions at this time in history. Most theologians and scholars of the Gospel's believe that the driving out, turning over the tables, was more of a symbolic gesture, a prophetic symbol like the one performed by the Jewish prophet Jeremiah in front of the temple around 590 BCE. Part of the reason the actions are thought to be symbolic and prophetic is because in Jeremiah 7 and 26 the phrase "den of robbers" has its origin. The Temple at that time was controlled by Rome, and Caiaphas, the chief priest, was in collusion with Rome and enforcing Roman "rules and taxes", the Roman domination system, he and his scribes were on the bank roll, I am sure by necessity, you got to feed your family. Seems odd that with all those Roman officers standing about, during what could be described as an "Orange Alert" for terrorism, that if Jesus had been particularly violent they would have arrested him. And they did not arrest him.
Like I said during the occupation of the Jewish homeland, the Romans executed many individuals for terrorism and trying to overthrow Rome. Many individuals were crucified according to both the "Jewish War" and "Jewish Antiquities' according to Josephus's accounts. Most are not listed by name, but are listed as "bandits" The Greek word translated as "bandits" is commonly used for "terrorist" and "freedom fighters", and that crucifixion was used specifically for people who systematically refused to accept Roman imperial authority. Jesus got mentioned by name in the records, they say that he was a "bandit", but they don't say that he was a violent one.
Now, you know basically what I know. The oldest narratives of his time in the Temples, do not indicate that he was cage violent or supported the use of violence. Violence does not fit with what is known about the historical Jesus.
I'm not an authority, though.
More...
Who knows the exact truth? What is known is that the first of the Gospel narratives, that would be Mark's, showed up around 70 CE give or take a few years during the Jewish Wars. Some 30 years after the crucifiction of Jesus. Seeing that Mark's gospel is the eldest and appears to have been the template for the rest, we will have to look at that one, and it says that he cleared the temple and he overturned some tables, possibly violent, but likely not. The reason I say this, is because the Temple courts were filled with Roman officers, Pilate was in town for Passover, because Passover brought many of the faithful into Jerusalem and the Romans were aware that the Jewish people were very unhappy at being occupied, the extreme taxation they were under, and that the Roman faith saw Caesar as divine and was to be worshiped as God. There had already been numerous uprisings against Roman rule, resulting in multiple executions at this time in history. Most theologians and scholars of the Gospel's believe that the driving out, turning over the tables, was more of a symbolic gesture, a prophetic symbol like the one performed by the Jewish prophet Jeremiah in front of the temple around 590 BCE. Part of the reason the actions are thought to be symbolic and prophetic is because in Jeremiah 7 and 26 the phrase "den of robbers" has its origin. The Temple at that time was controlled by Rome, and Caiaphas, the chief priest, was in collusion with Rome and enforcing Roman "rules and taxes", the Roman domination system, he and his scribes were on the bank roll, I am sure by necessity, you got to feed your family. Seems odd that with all those Roman officers standing about, during what could be described as an "Orange Alert" for terrorism, that if Jesus had been particularly violent they would have arrested him. And they did not arrest him.
Like I said during the occupation of the Jewish homeland, the Romans executed many individuals for terrorism and trying to overthrow Rome. Many individuals were crucified according to both the "Jewish War" and "Jewish Antiquities' according to Josephus's accounts. Most are not listed by name, but are listed as "bandits" The Greek word translated as "bandits" is commonly used for "terrorist" and "freedom fighters", and that crucifixion was used specifically for people who systematically refused to accept Roman imperial authority. Jesus got mentioned by name in the records, they say that he was a "bandit", but they don't say that he was a violent one.
Now, you know basically what I know. The oldest narratives of his time in the Temples, do not indicate that he was cage violent or supported the use of violence. Violence does not fit with what is known about the historical Jesus.
I'm not an authority, though.
45
@44 Kim: Nice answer --- you sound like an authority to me! It kind of illustrates my point because I would guess the evangelicals in the MMA groups would really emphasize the "Jesus-didn't-take-no-shit-my God-is-an-awesome-god route. History? Doesn't matter except when I want it to."
Simple minds find simple answers no matter how complex the question.
Simple minds find simple answers no matter how complex the question.
48
Hartiepie,
Thank you. I assure you that I am not an authority, just one who is fascinated by Jesus and besotted by his life, his passion for inclusiveness and justice, and the inspiration he gave to MLK JR and others.
Thank you. I assure you that I am not an authority, just one who is fascinated by Jesus and besotted by his life, his passion for inclusiveness and justice, and the inspiration he gave to MLK JR and others.
49
Look, folks, sports and religion are both very effective ways to get disaffected young men to grow up and focus. Think of Muhammad Ali.
You need something outside yourself to keep from self-destructing. Some of us have a professional calling or a philosophy or an altruistic mission. Some of us don't have any of that but have been fine so far because life hasn't been that rough yet. But some people hit a hard patch and a sport saves them, or religion does. I don't want to snicker at that.
This MMA church thing is gimmicky but only because it's new; if it sticks, we'll see it as normal in a few years.
You need something outside yourself to keep from self-destructing. Some of us have a professional calling or a philosophy or an altruistic mission. Some of us don't have any of that but have been fine so far because life hasn't been that rough yet. But some people hit a hard patch and a sport saves them, or religion does. I don't want to snicker at that.
This MMA church thing is gimmicky but only because it's new; if it sticks, we'll see it as normal in a few years.
50
Kim in Portland, thanks for some fascinating history. I'm agnostic but have always thought that if belief in Jesus Christ helped to make MLK the man he was, Christianity can't be all bad. Some of the finest people I know are Christians.
Also, let's remember that Jesus was Jewish. He was born, lived and died a Jew. If it weren't for Judaism, we wouldn't have Christianity. To the best of my knowledge, nobody on this board ever bashes Jews or Judaism. Interesting.
Also, let's remember that Jesus was Jewish. He was born, lived and died a Jew. If it weren't for Judaism, we wouldn't have Christianity. To the best of my knowledge, nobody on this board ever bashes Jews or Judaism. Interesting.
51
Thank you, DavidBowieFan.
Jesus in my opinion was a great Jewish man, and it appears that he loved his people greatly, enough to challenge Rome and the denomination system of his time. Records showed that there was an ever increasing displaced peasant class, which is significant because the primary means of making an income was pastoral. In fact land was inherited via the family line in prior times. The demanded tribute by Rome and the Temple tax is thought to have been about 30%, combine that with the commercialization of agriculture and the ever growing estates of the wealthy and we see how hard it must have been. To lose your land by confiscation to improve the status of the wealthy or to have it foreclosed due to debt, meant that you became somebody else's day laborer, but also that you no had land to use as your source of family food subsistence. Forcing you to buy the basics to survive. When this happened you were viewed by society as an "untouchable" and you had no rights. Caiaphas had the job of collecting the tributes and keeping the peace, his position kept him between a rock and a hard place. So, the Temple was no longer the place of worship, it was the seat of Roman rule as well. That is likely why Jesus overturned the tables, it was in protest of the "domination system" that was leaving his fellow Jews homeless and a way of living that went against the scriptures, nullified the Jubilee that assured people had their land and homes, and demanded that the religious leaders cooperate with it.
When I understand how difficult it was for the Jewish people and what it meant to challenge Rome and the "denomination system". I see where individuals like MLK JR found their inspiration. To follow Jesus is to stand against inequality and injustice, to be inclusive and compassionate. Nazareth was but 4 miles from the larger cities of Lower Galilee, including Sepphoris which was the seat of Roman rule until sometime between 17-20 CE, those who challenged Rome died for their insubordination a well documented fact. Pilate was quick to execute, his position demanded peaceful cooperation. Jesus was likely well aware of this. And, he found the courage to travel to Jerusalem to do it anyway and not back down. He loved his people. MLK JR found the courage and had the conviction to not back down, too. He loved his people.
That is enough history. Now it is time to go play my guitars. I think a little Ziggy Stardust is needed. Your handle gave me the inspiration.
Peace.
More...
Jesus in my opinion was a great Jewish man, and it appears that he loved his people greatly, enough to challenge Rome and the denomination system of his time. Records showed that there was an ever increasing displaced peasant class, which is significant because the primary means of making an income was pastoral. In fact land was inherited via the family line in prior times. The demanded tribute by Rome and the Temple tax is thought to have been about 30%, combine that with the commercialization of agriculture and the ever growing estates of the wealthy and we see how hard it must have been. To lose your land by confiscation to improve the status of the wealthy or to have it foreclosed due to debt, meant that you became somebody else's day laborer, but also that you no had land to use as your source of family food subsistence. Forcing you to buy the basics to survive. When this happened you were viewed by society as an "untouchable" and you had no rights. Caiaphas had the job of collecting the tributes and keeping the peace, his position kept him between a rock and a hard place. So, the Temple was no longer the place of worship, it was the seat of Roman rule as well. That is likely why Jesus overturned the tables, it was in protest of the "domination system" that was leaving his fellow Jews homeless and a way of living that went against the scriptures, nullified the Jubilee that assured people had their land and homes, and demanded that the religious leaders cooperate with it.
When I understand how difficult it was for the Jewish people and what it meant to challenge Rome and the "denomination system". I see where individuals like MLK JR found their inspiration. To follow Jesus is to stand against inequality and injustice, to be inclusive and compassionate. Nazareth was but 4 miles from the larger cities of Lower Galilee, including Sepphoris which was the seat of Roman rule until sometime between 17-20 CE, those who challenged Rome died for their insubordination a well documented fact. Pilate was quick to execute, his position demanded peaceful cooperation. Jesus was likely well aware of this. And, he found the courage to travel to Jerusalem to do it anyway and not back down. He loved his people. MLK JR found the courage and had the conviction to not back down, too. He loved his people.
That is enough history. Now it is time to go play my guitars. I think a little Ziggy Stardust is needed. Your handle gave me the inspiration.
Peace.
52
@50: I think that the reasons that Jews aren't bashed on this board are:
A: While we do have our super-religious wackos, they tend to proselytize only to other Jews, under the philosophy (I think) that if someone was supposed to be one of God's favored people, they would have been born a Member of the Tribe.
B: As a oft-persecuted minority, Jews as a whole tend to have a better understanding of the plight of other oppressed groups.
For reasons such as these, the people fucking the country over or persecuting gays tend not to be Jewish. But we do have our bad apples, such as Joe Lieberman.
Also, I have great respect for Christians (or any people, really) who emulate Jesus by helping those less fortunate than themselves. The only Christians I have a problem with are those like Loveschild who think that God wants them to boss the rest of the world around.
A: While we do have our super-religious wackos, they tend to proselytize only to other Jews, under the philosophy (I think) that if someone was supposed to be one of God's favored people, they would have been born a Member of the Tribe.
B: As a oft-persecuted minority, Jews as a whole tend to have a better understanding of the plight of other oppressed groups.
For reasons such as these, the people fucking the country over or persecuting gays tend not to be Jewish. But we do have our bad apples, such as Joe Lieberman.
Also, I have great respect for Christians (or any people, really) who emulate Jesus by helping those less fortunate than themselves. The only Christians I have a problem with are those like Loveschild who think that God wants them to boss the rest of the world around.
54
@39: Didn't mean that Christian athletes or a conservative martial arts culture are trends (I run in kung fu circles myself, and it's much the same), but that churches turning themselves into MMA gyms (or tacking gyms onto themselves) is. And while Christian and Evangelical athletes certainly do win quite a bit (they'd be hard pressed not to really, given they form three-quarters of the population), I rather doubt the ones winning are the ones trained at Local-Church-Praise-The-Lord-And-Oh-Yeah-We're-Also-An-MMA-Gym.
55
Uh, halloo? Violence? A little bit of wrasslin' and fisticuffs? Big whoop.
This is the South.
Evangelicals.
South.
How do you think they feel about WAR?
They've got a boner for war. Every one that comes down the pike.
(Except Clinton in Bosnia, and whatever Obama cooks up next to prove he's tough and not a liberal, if it doesn't involve what they perceive as A-rabs.)
This is the South.
Evangelicals.
South.
How do you think they feel about WAR?
They've got a boner for war. Every one that comes down the pike.
(Except Clinton in Bosnia, and whatever Obama cooks up next to prove he's tough and not a liberal, if it doesn't involve what they perceive as A-rabs.)
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"Let me be the first one to say: My business will refuse to participate in a same-sex marriage ceremony," by Republican Representative Matt Shea of the Spokane Valley by Eli Sanders
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The Onion Is on a Roll: "Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon" by Charles Mudede
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"I don't know if I want to be here [if gay marriage passes]," by Republican State Senator Jay Rodne of North Bend by Eli Sanders
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The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
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Announcing The Stranger's Tournament of Dunces! Who's the Dumbest Representative in the State House? by Christopher Frizzelle
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