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News & ArtsMonday, February 1, 2010
Sex / Media / Savage Love Ethical Sluts
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:25 PM
Randy "The Ethicist" Cohen answered a question in Sunday's New York Times Magazine from a woman in a polyamorous relationship and didn't squeal and gather his skirts and piss his panties—basically, Cohen didn't respond to this openly and honestly and happily non-monogamous couple the way most other advice-columnists, therapist, couples counselors, TV talking heads, and Slog commenters would. Gotta love this graph:
You have no duty to decode your connubial arrangements for mere acquaintances. Nor need you make them feel comfortable or reassure them that their views on marriage and monogamy are universally held.
While Randy told the couple they needn't explain the exact outlines of their deal to casual friends, he didn't advise them to hide their shameful arrangement either. It's a great response—the whole thing's here—and this response and others like it are why Randy is on the list of approved sources of solid second opinions on the "Savage Love" homepage. (Thanks to Matt for reminding me about Cohen's latest column. I meant to Slog it this AM, but it slipped my pot- and adultery-addled mind.)
3
Society has, and in fact has an obligation to have, standards for the institution of marriage.
Folks are free to flout those standards, and Society is free in return not to see extending the benefits of marriage to those folks as a pressing issue.
Folks are free to flout those standards, and Society is free in return not to see extending the benefits of marriage to those folks as a pressing issue.
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2 danny has seen 'real' journalist say 'graph' and it makes him feel like a big boy to say it
graph
graph
graph
graph
5
Society apparently has the right to take away people's marriage-related rights if it disapproves of their conduct, according to Alleged.
Hmmm, so in the redneck parts of the Deep South, society's standards should be enforced so that blacks and whites can't get married to each other? Think about what's coming out of your mouth once in a while.
Hmmm, so in the redneck parts of the Deep South, society's standards should be enforced so that blacks and whites can't get married to each other? Think about what's coming out of your mouth once in a while.
8
For the thousandth time, Dan, most of us don't have a problem with couples who have an understanding that both agree to. It's the liars and cheats, the ones who are dishonest in their relationships, who pretend they're monogamous to their partners when they're not, that we don't give a free pass.
See how that works?
See how that works?
9
Once again venom resorts to drawing inaccurate comparisons because he is unable to refute the truth. No matter how much those who seek to normalize behaviors that are on the fringes of all societies around the globe (and in all races) they cannot re-engineer the family.
12
@9
I find your description of my sexuality both inaccurate and somewhat offensive.
I'd like you to consider reading this please
http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_st…
I find your description of my sexuality both inaccurate and somewhat offensive.
I'd like you to consider reading this please
http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_st…
13
@8: I'm right there with you, 8. But some vocal commenters seem to regard the existence of all non-monogamous couples as an attack on monogamous couples, period. The post I wrote the other day about the results of a study about gay couples, a study that found 50% were non-monogamous (at least in the SF Bay area), was about couples who had an understanding, were honest and open, no lying, no cheating. And people went nuts in comments and reacted like the existence of these honestly non-monogamous couples were a threat to and an attack on monogamous couples. It was nuts.
14
@13
Hi Dan :)
...
...
sorry, you don't comment much so i figured I should take the opportunity to do that.
Hi Dan :)
...
...
sorry, you don't comment much so i figured I should take the opportunity to do that.
16
Lovechild, I wish I could be an anthropologist about every society around the globe like you. That must have taken some serious study on your part.
17
Jeez, people act like "non-monogamy" is something that has JUST NOW been invented! Maybe honest non-monogamy is a recent thing, but having more than one partner is a pretty ancient tradition (or habit, or what-have-you).
So for all those millenia and in all those cultures where men had mistresses or harems, did the actual "legal" marriage not count? They were still considered a "couple" even if one partner was getting a little sumpin' sumpin' on the side.
The only difference here is that some people choose to be honest and up-front about it, rather than doing it on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis.
Not that I'm volunteering to be in a non-monogamous relationship, but what others do is their business, and I'll not interfere with them.
So for all those millenia and in all those cultures where men had mistresses or harems, did the actual "legal" marriage not count? They were still considered a "couple" even if one partner was getting a little sumpin' sumpin' on the side.
The only difference here is that some people choose to be honest and up-front about it, rather than doing it on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis.
Not that I'm volunteering to be in a non-monogamous relationship, but what others do is their business, and I'll not interfere with them.
18
@9 Oh Loveschild is SO CUTE! "re-engineer the family", indeed! Aww, as if it hasn't been re-engineered from the truly traditional multi-generational extended family into the nuclear-family dysfunction it is today. And if there wasn't such a thing has 'hand-fastening' and also 'hand un-fastening' back in the day. When indeed did the modern "traditional" family actually appear? Hint: Not all that long ago! Also, how much dishonesty and cheating and adultery occur in these modern "traditional" families? How much divorce? Tee hee!
I much prefer radical honesty and broader-band intelligent relationships over trying to cram myself unhappily into a modern "traditional" relationship.
To each their own, I say. Do what works for you. I most certainly won't stop you. But if you try to stop me... well, then, who's trying to meddle with whom then, eh?
I much prefer radical honesty and broader-band intelligent relationships over trying to cram myself unhappily into a modern "traditional" relationship.
To each their own, I say. Do what works for you. I most certainly won't stop you. But if you try to stop me... well, then, who's trying to meddle with whom then, eh?
19
@15: It's a couple in that they have some sort of understanding, usually consisting of what kinds of people they are allowed to sleep with (e.g., must seek partner's approval, no mutual friends, no hookers, etc.). They are together, whereas their one-offs tend to be temporary.
20
@9: Once again Loveschild is too damn stupid to write my name out correctly, the harebrained cuntwhorebitch. No matter what I say about you, I at least write your nick out the way you write it.
My point is that not everything that society thinks is right (according to you, who apparently is society's Lorax) is necessarily good, ethical, or proper. If you say that gay marriage should not be allowed because some people find it immoral, you'd also have to ban interracial marriage because a lot of people get all squirrelly about it.
The key issue here is that you are trying to take away people's rights because you don't like their lifestyle. You can reinterpret (read as: cherry-pick quotes from) the bible all you want, but until God Almighty moseys on over to tell us all that He's leaving you in charge, you can take your preaching and stuff it up your ass.
@10: I fail to see how I'm bitching like a pussy. But if you're really upset, maybe I can dial nine-WAHn-WAHn and call a WAAAAAAAHmbulance for you. Cry, baby, cry. Make your mother sad.
@15: It's a couple in that they have some sort of understanding, usually consisting of what kinds of people they are allowed to sleep with (e.g., must seek partner's approval, no mutual friends, no hookers, etc.). They are together, whereas their one-offs tend to be temporary.
@16: Oh, didn't you know? Loveschild's an expert on EVERYTHING! She knows all about every culture in the world, she knows all about what causes "The Gay", and she knows all about science and biology. She even knows what God wants us to do about gay people and how we should all behave so that Jesus will stop pouting about us! It's incredible how knowledgeable she is!!!
My point is that not everything that society thinks is right (according to you, who apparently is society's Lorax) is necessarily good, ethical, or proper. If you say that gay marriage should not be allowed because some people find it immoral, you'd also have to ban interracial marriage because a lot of people get all squirrelly about it.
The key issue here is that you are trying to take away people's rights because you don't like their lifestyle. You can reinterpret (read as: cherry-pick quotes from) the bible all you want, but until God Almighty moseys on over to tell us all that He's leaving you in charge, you can take your preaching and stuff it up your ass.
@10: I fail to see how I'm bitching like a pussy. But if you're really upset, maybe I can dial nine-WAHn-WAHn and call a WAAAAAAAHmbulance for you. Cry, baby, cry. Make your mother sad.
@15: It's a couple in that they have some sort of understanding, usually consisting of what kinds of people they are allowed to sleep with (e.g., must seek partner's approval, no mutual friends, no hookers, etc.). They are together, whereas their one-offs tend to be temporary.
@16: Oh, didn't you know? Loveschild's an expert on EVERYTHING! She knows all about every culture in the world, she knows all about what causes "The Gay", and she knows all about science and biology. She even knows what God wants us to do about gay people and how we should all behave so that Jesus will stop pouting about us! It's incredible how knowledgeable she is!!!
21
Sorry to double post, but the servers are being all messed up again.
@9: Once again Loveschild is too damn stupid to write my name out correctly, the harebrained cuntwhorebitch. No matter what I say about you, I at least write your nick out the way you write it.
My point is that not everything that society thinks is right (according to you, who apparently is society's Lorax) is necessarily good, ethical, or proper. If you say that gay marriage should not be allowed because some people find it immoral, you'd also have to ban interracial marriage because a lot of people get all squirrelly about it.
The key issue here is that you are trying to take away people's rights because you don't like their lifestyle. You can reinterpret (read as: cherry-pick quotes from) the bible all you want, but until God Almighty moseys on over to tell us all that He's leaving you in charge, you can take your preaching and stuff it up your ass.
@10: I fail to see how I'm bitching like a pussy. But if you're really upset, maybe I can dial nine-WAHn-WAHn and call a WAAAAAAAHmbulance for you. Cry, baby, cry. Make your mother sad.
@16: Oh, didn't you know? Loveschild's an expert on EVERYTHING! She knows all about every culture in the world, she knows all about what causes "The Gay", and she knows all about science and biology. She even knows what God wants us to do about gay people and how we should all behave so that Jesus will stop pouting about us! It's incredible how knowledgeable she is!!!
@9: Once again Loveschild is too damn stupid to write my name out correctly, the harebrained cuntwhorebitch. No matter what I say about you, I at least write your nick out the way you write it.
My point is that not everything that society thinks is right (according to you, who apparently is society's Lorax) is necessarily good, ethical, or proper. If you say that gay marriage should not be allowed because some people find it immoral, you'd also have to ban interracial marriage because a lot of people get all squirrelly about it.
The key issue here is that you are trying to take away people's rights because you don't like their lifestyle. You can reinterpret (read as: cherry-pick quotes from) the bible all you want, but until God Almighty moseys on over to tell us all that He's leaving you in charge, you can take your preaching and stuff it up your ass.
@10: I fail to see how I'm bitching like a pussy. But if you're really upset, maybe I can dial nine-WAHn-WAHn and call a WAAAAAAAHmbulance for you. Cry, baby, cry. Make your mother sad.
@16: Oh, didn't you know? Loveschild's an expert on EVERYTHING! She knows all about every culture in the world, she knows all about what causes "The Gay", and she knows all about science and biology. She even knows what God wants us to do about gay people and how we should all behave so that Jesus will stop pouting about us! It's incredible how knowledgeable she is!!!
23
An advice columnist who actually knows how to write and appears to enjoy his mastery of the language? That is refreshing.
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@24: The servers are the problem, you nutjob assbag. I tried to post, it gave me an error, so tried to post again. THEN it decided to put all of my posts through at once. You obviously have no experience dealing with temperamental computer systems.
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@26: I never claimed to be any good with servers that I do not have admin access to in a city hundreds of miles away from my current location. The fact that you don't seem to recognize is that when the servers go kooky, the only people who are going to be able to get a handle on it are the people who have physical access to the damn things. If you knew how servers work, you'd realize that. It's not like I TRIED to triple post or anything.
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