Slog
News & ArtsMonday, January 25, 2010
At Large My Only Complaint
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:00 AM
The seats on our light rail trains are insanely uncomfortable. Who picked them out? Did someone sit on one first? Hard, narrow, and... upholstered for no discernible reason. They're as hard—but less comfortable—than the plastic seats on the New York City's subway train I'm riding on right now. And, again, what's with the upholstery? What's the point? If the seats aren't cushioned, why upholster them? All that fabric is going to do is absorb and retain... god... knows... what... and then unsuspecting passengers are going to come along and plop down on hard, uncomfortable, damp hot-zone upholstery. Plastic seats get wet too, of course, but they dry faster and if there's something pooling on one, you can see it.
2
The light rail cars in Pittsburgh have cushions and plastic upholstery, but the smooth plastic makes it easy to slide in your seat when you don't want to. Maybe the fabric on the Link seats is to help you stay put?
4
Sounds like you should write a letter to Sound Transit! I'm sure they would be glad to have your suggestions.
6
Why not save a second complaint for the design of the bike hooks? Maybe I have a tall bike (I do), but it's a little absurd to have bikes sticking halfway into the central corridor so nobody can get past them.
7
How about the fact that they don't have any way of enforcing payment rules? Oh- except that voice that reminds you to buy a ticket every five minutes at Westlake... there's always that.
9
@ #1
Yes, his use of the word 'than' in his 5th sentence is correct. He is making a comparative statement, x vs. y, and needs to use the correct particle conjunction to make the comparison. He isn't using 'then' because that is used in conditional sentences, and would make outcome y dependent on condition x. The hardness or lack of comfort of the light rail train seats in Seattle is not dependent on the hardness or lack of comfort of the seats on the NYC subway, so he isn't speaking in terms of conditions. Rather, he is making comparison between the two.
Yes, his use of the word 'than' in his 5th sentence is correct. He is making a comparative statement, x vs. y, and needs to use the correct particle conjunction to make the comparison. He isn't using 'then' because that is used in conditional sentences, and would make outcome y dependent on condition x. The hardness or lack of comfort of the light rail train seats in Seattle is not dependent on the hardness or lack of comfort of the seats on the NYC subway, so he isn't speaking in terms of conditions. Rather, he is making comparison between the two.
11
@9: I know the difference between "than" and "then", I wasn't expecting him to use then there.
I think I was ignoring the "but less comfortable" bit and reading it as "They're as hard than the plastic seats."
I think I was ignoring the "but less comfortable" bit and reading it as "They're as hard than the plastic seats."
13
@9: You can't really defend the use of the word than. Take out the parenthetical and the sentence makes no sense whatsoever.
15
Dan, you've been on the el some time in the last five years, right? Their seats are also upholstered but not cushioned.
16
This sort of fabric is put in to protect against scratchiti and graffiti; it's not intended to be cushioning. It's also hypoallergenic, FWIW.
17
@ 11 & 13: Granted, his sentence would have been more clear had he used a 2nd 'as' in it, after the word 'hard' before the parenthetical. And he should have used the word 'than' in the parenthetical itself.
18
The upholstery is bad enough, you don't want cushioning too, then you'd have The BART. I wonder how many OCD people refuse to ride The BART.
19
Dan said:
"They're as hard—but less comfortable—than the plastic seats on the New York City's subway train I'm riding on right now."
Now read:
"They're as hard—but less comfortable—as the plastic seats on the New York City's subway train I'm riding on right now."
"They're as hard—but less comfortable—than the plastic seats on the New York City's subway train I'm riding on right now."
Now read:
"They're as hard—but less comfortable—as the plastic seats on the New York City's subway train I'm riding on right now."
20
The seats were selected by people that will never use the system. Same with the ORCA mess, those that selected it as a solution never use it.
21
Grammar junkies:
In no way would I presume to edit Mr. Savage's fine work. Having said that, I will now edit Mr. Savage's fine work:
"They're as hard as -- but less comfortable than -- the plastic seats on the New York City subway train on which I'm riding right now."
Note the subordinate clause, the removal of the possessive, and the location of the prepositional phrase.
But ya know, he done pretty good for typpin' on the trane!
In no way would I presume to edit Mr. Savage's fine work. Having said that, I will now edit Mr. Savage's fine work:
"They're as hard as -- but less comfortable than -- the plastic seats on the New York City subway train on which I'm riding right now."
Note the subordinate clause, the removal of the possessive, and the location of the prepositional phrase.
But ya know, he done pretty good for typpin' on the trane!
22
Are Metro's seat upholstered with fabric or with something like vinyl? If fabric, than this quote is funny to me...
... because I'm sure Dan has no problem sitting down on Metro's seats without first checking for god... knows... what...
All that fabric is going to do is absorb and retain... god... knows... what... and then unsuspecting passengers are going to come along and plop down on hard, uncomfortable, damp hot-zone upholstery. Plastic seats get wet too, of course, but they dry faster and if there's something pooling on one, you can see it.
... because I'm sure Dan has no problem sitting down on Metro's seats without first checking for god... knows... what...
23
Regarding Dan's grammar, it's always atrocious. He must just be in such a hurry to share his thoughts that he can't be bothered with proofreading. That's okay, though, because whether he's right on or way off, he's always interesting and the grade-school mistakes don't detract from that.
24
Transit seats in Toronto are upholstered. I think it does help you stay put (we still have some trains with vinyl benches from the 70s and you slide around way too much). They're also padded. The padding does wear out, but I've been on newly stuffed seats (which are so awesome) so they do replace it.
You'd think it'd be a problem with hygiene, etc. etc., but it doesn't seem to have come up. Maybe we're all blissfully unaware of just how much coffee/pop/urine/jizz we've been sitting on/in.
You'd think it'd be a problem with hygiene, etc. etc., but it doesn't seem to have come up. Maybe we're all blissfully unaware of just how much coffee/pop/urine/jizz we've been sitting on/in.
25
Upholstery is more pleasing to the eye, warmer than hard plastic which can be marred with graffiti. And I'm willing to bet that the fabric is stain-resistant, but it is harder to keep clean that plastic or metal. Dan's right; you could wind up sitting in a pool of piss or worse. Aren't the DC Metro seat padded with plastic-covered foam? I remember them being pretty comfortable.
26
There probably is a thin pad under the fabric, but it's not meant for cushioning. It's there to insulate you from the cold metal frame. So this design should be more comfortable than a hard, cold plastic seat.
27
@22,
They're vinyl.
Upholstery = bed bugs to my mind. I wonder if the spread of bed bugs is going to necessitate ripping out all those seats and replacing them with plastic.
They're vinyl.
Upholstery = bed bugs to my mind. I wonder if the spread of bed bugs is going to necessitate ripping out all those seats and replacing them with plastic.
28
I'm sick and tired of all the anti-rail people boarding the trains with fake passes.
I think the seats were made for when they get blasted on cheap booze and spew on the seats.
I think the seats were made for when they get blasted on cheap booze and spew on the seats.
29
23
Matt, it's time to pull your face out of Dan's ass for a moment- your showing symptoms of brain oxygen deprivation...
Matt, it's time to pull your face out of Dan's ass for a moment- your showing symptoms of brain oxygen deprivation...
30
@25, DC's seats are very comfortable--nice soft cushions with vinyl covers. Although for some reason they're introducing wool upholstery to some trains, which I'm sure are less comfortable and harder to clean. Also a problem for those of us with wool allergies.
31
@ 29, you've got it backwards. I'm not saying always good (this post is a case in point, and is actually par for the course when he's talking about anything outside of gay rights or relationship advice). But there's a reason why he's the only one to have all the "most commented" slogs on several occasions, and why the "most commented" slogs have always had at least one post by him at all times.
32
@ 27, thanks. It's been a few years since my last Metro ride and I couldn't remember. I just knew they weren't as awful as RTD's buses in the 80s (RTD being Denver's bus system).
33
The floors of BART trains are carpeted. Eww. I suppose it makes the ride a tiny bit quieter, but eww.
35
I wish they had put in ceiling racks so that you can put luggage there to keep it out of the way when you are riding to/from the airport.
36
fabric is just a mistake on public transit of any kind. i ride bart, and i can attest to the wisdom of going with pleather-ish stuff or just molded plastic. it should be constructed such that a maint tech can come in and just hose the whole thing down on a regular basis. otherwise, over time....ick.
37
The light rail seating is more uncomfortable than any mass transit seating I've been exposed to.
They also packed the seats too close, so if you happen to be over 6 feet tall, enjoy eating your knees.
They also packed the seats too close, so if you happen to be over 6 feet tall, enjoy eating your knees.
38
And vandals with sharp objects can cause more damage to fabric than hard plastic. Mass Transit should be utilitarian.
40
The fabric is sort of like velcro. It keeps people from sliding out of their seats when the idiot bus driver slams on the breaks.
42
Oooo, that sucks. The seats on MAX here in PDX are pretty comfy. Better than BART seats in SF. They're just standard public transportation seats, I assume it's that they're shaped really well.
43
CTA trains and buses in Chicago have those kind of upholstered seats (cloth but no padding) but the designers had the decent sense to shape the seats roughly to the contours of the generalized human backside.
Dunno what Freche_Lola's talking about. I've never seen anything too bad in the transit system, even in moderately-to-heavily sketchy neighborhoods.
Dunno what Freche_Lola's talking about. I've never seen anything too bad in the transit system, even in moderately-to-heavily sketchy neighborhoods.
44
@ 1, 9 The line should have read something like "They're as hard as — but less comfortable than — the plastic seats on the New York City's subway train"
45
They appear to me to be a compromise solution to the needs for durability, comfort, and aesthetics, and like most compromises, they are the worst solution possible, far worse than if any of the individual necessities had simply been met without much regard to the others.
Of course, I bet they were cheap, so there's that. Cheap always trumps design.
Of course, I bet they were cheap, so there's that. Cheap always trumps design.
46
For what it's worth, you can stand and hold on to something if the seats bother you that much. The ride is smooth and brisk.
48
You know, they actually design seats for light rail that way on purpose.
They don't want you getting comfortable. You're not supposed to be on it for that long.
They don't want you getting comfortable. You're not supposed to be on it for that long.
49
The seats are fine - leg room is lacking in some seats, but the seats themselves are not worth complaining about. They look nice, are easy to maintain, and generally completely adequate. I've experienced much worse public transit seats, taxi cab seats, etc.
If you want to complain about something, start with the somewhat violent "shimmy" that seems to be particularly acute near the articulated sections of the cars. Down towards the airport, at high speeds, it is unnerving. I've heard they're trying to fix it, but the rail grinding didn't seem to help.
If you want to complain about something, start with the somewhat violent "shimmy" that seems to be particularly acute near the articulated sections of the cars. Down towards the airport, at high speeds, it is unnerving. I've heard they're trying to fix it, but the rail grinding didn't seem to help.
50
Transit seats should be covered in a hard, impervious surface, with a deep contour -- maybe like a taxi driver's bead seat cover, or maybe like a dense array of pencil points. This would provide channels for all the urine and dog-anus-scrapings and what-not to run down into, so even sitting on a freshly-befouled seat would not get one too wet.
The worst seats are on Sound Transit buses -- deeply padded, covered in custom-woven cloth, each one smelling like homeless man buttcrack sweat.
The worst seats are on Sound Transit buses -- deeply padded, covered in custom-woven cloth, each one smelling like homeless man buttcrack sweat.
51
Here's where they came from:
http://www.americanseating.com/transport…
Also, an upholstered seat is much harder to write my name in it like the plastic chairs (or the back window on just about any bus).
http://www.americanseating.com/transport…
Also, an upholstered seat is much harder to write my name in it like the plastic chairs (or the back window on just about any bus).
52
Here's where they came from:
http://www.americanseating.com/transport…
Also, an upholstered seat is much harder to write my name in it like the plastic chairs (or the back window on just about any bus).
http://www.americanseating.com/transport…
Also, an upholstered seat is much harder to write my name in it like the plastic chairs (or the back window on just about any bus).
53
I think the adjective "savage" describes your level of whining. Either that, or "tiresome." Dude, it's not that bad.
I commute to the airport a lot, and can't figure out where to really stash my luggage. But it's so nice to have light rail, I really don't care about the inconvenience.
I commute to the airport a lot, and can't figure out where to really stash my luggage. But it's so nice to have light rail, I really don't care about the inconvenience.
54
@18: I have OCD. I always stand on BART. But at least BART has standing room.
I also always stand on Metro. Usually this means standing in the back stairway. Which Metro drivers hate. So sometimes I wind up in the ridiculously miniscule aisles. Rather than sitting in miscellaneous seat stench, I get dirty transients directly squeezing by my crotch.
Metro has less standing room than any transit system on earth. If they're going to force everyone to sit down, couldn't they at least clean the damn seats once in a while?
I also always stand on Metro. Usually this means standing in the back stairway. Which Metro drivers hate. So sometimes I wind up in the ridiculously miniscule aisles. Rather than sitting in miscellaneous seat stench, I get dirty transients directly squeezing by my crotch.
Metro has less standing room than any transit system on earth. If they're going to force everyone to sit down, couldn't they at least clean the damn seats once in a while?
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