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News & ArtsTuesday, January 19, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: After the Affair
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 12:25 PM
I'm a 26-year-old highly educated straight woman, married to a man I fell in love with in high school. He's warm, funny, intellectually great to talk to, and has been my best friend for half my life. Unfortunately, we had a lot of trouble adjusting to adult life together and got into a cycle where I did all the "grown up" stuff—money, housework, planning for the future—and kept hoping he'd catch up someday. He didn't, the resentment piled up, our sex life suffered, and finally (in the guise of "opening" our marriage, with my husband's very specific permission) I had sex with someone else—the first time either of us had. I didn't expect it to turn into a long-running affair but I was blown away by how hot the sex was, particularly because of my lover's slightly dominant side, which I found incredibly satisfying. My husband knew about it all along and would tell me it was still fine if I asked, but, as I should have known, it wasn't really OK and was driving him crazy.This went on for almost a year when finally my lover wanted to move on to a real relationship and ended it. At that point my husband and I realized how screwed up things had gotten and separated. We've been in counseling for four months and he has come a long way in seeing what he has to do to be a partner for me (as well as forgiving me for the affair), so I'm trying hard to give us a real chance. But there's one huge, lurking problem. Sexually—starting well before the affair—he just does not do it for me the way he did when we were horny teenagers. He's so passive and lacking in energy that I feel bored to tears in bed. Of course, my affair completely destroyed his sexual self-confidence, and I feel horribly guilty about it, so it feels really mean and unfair to tell him I need some changes in that department—especially after he's been able to recognize his own role in the relationship problems that led me to have sex with someone else in the first place. Also, it seems like things might naturally get better if we could get the emotional/life stuff back on track. But I just can't face the thought of this being my sex life forever, and feel like I need to know if there's any way to fix it before I commit to staying married (or I'll just be stringing him along).
Advice???
A Messy Is Super Sad
My response after the jump.
Lay your cards on the table, AMISS. You're not doing your husband or your marriage any favors by downplaying the sexual aspect of your marital problems. It was your sexual dissatisfaction that brought you to this crisis and your marriage is doomed if you get back together without addressing and solving the problem.
You worry that your husband's self-esteem will suffer if you bring the sex issue up, AMISS, but do you know what's really going to kill your husband's sexual self-confidence and self-esteem? If you two get back together and then his marriage falls apart all over again—this time permanently—because you're still not sexually satisfied, because you were too polite to address the underlying issues that brought your marriage to the brink when you were in couples counseling.
Toss it all out there, at counseling session: you have sexual needs that aren't being met and, yes, it's about passion and technique and style. Take some—hell, take most—of the responsibility. You haven't been clear about your needs and you haven't really told him what turns you on, possibly because you got together so young and you were both so inexperienced that you never had a chance to discover what really turns you on. But you know now, AMISS, and there's no going back.
In addition to rebuilding your emotional connection, AMISS, you have to rebuild your sexual connection. It's your only hope. Level with him now and if sex isn't something he is willing or able to work on, AMISS, do him the favor of ending this marriage now.
1
Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch is an excellent book on repairing your marriage and your sex life at the same time.
3
Sometimes I think the age-old tropes of advice columns need a revamp -- for example, how readers describe themselves.
"Highly educated"? In what? Why was this important? Is education the new race? Instead of "single white/black/Asian/etc. female" we've got "single highly educated/drop-out/functionally illiterate female"? I guess that is more informative.
Anyway, good luck. Dan's advice about ditching manners and opening up in counselling is good. You've got the neutral third party for a reason; leave your inner mediator at home and just lay it all out with honesty. It's your counsellor's job to institute balance.
"Highly educated"? In what? Why was this important? Is education the new race? Instead of "single white/black/Asian/etc. female" we've got "single highly educated/drop-out/functionally illiterate female"? I guess that is more informative.
Anyway, good luck. Dan's advice about ditching manners and opening up in counselling is good. You've got the neutral third party for a reason; leave your inner mediator at home and just lay it all out with honesty. It's your counsellor's job to institute balance.
4
The highly educated thing entertains me. She's highly educated, but not smart enough not to marry her high school sweetheart? Christ.
5
My guess is that he feels inadequate and isn't into it either, so he performs inadequately.
After over a decade of marriage, my S/O and I managed to spice things up by getting really drunk and horny, and talking about our kinks and fantasies, something we hadn't done since the honeymoon. Now we get to indulge in them, and even the vanilla sex is better. Go to a cabaret show or strip club together, that'll start things off in the right direction.
After over a decade of marriage, my S/O and I managed to spice things up by getting really drunk and horny, and talking about our kinks and fantasies, something we hadn't done since the honeymoon. Now we get to indulge in them, and even the vanilla sex is better. Go to a cabaret show or strip club together, that'll start things off in the right direction.
6
Am I the only person who thinks that if this couple was "opening their marriage" and AMISS slept with this other guy under an open marriage agreement (which is reinforced by the fact that the husband KNEW about the other guy and kept giving his permission when asked), that what AMISS did doesn't count as an affair? It's only cheating if you don't get consent, and if the husband wasn't okay with the situation he should have said "I'm not okay with this," instead of telling AMISS what he thought she wanted to hear while secretly seething about it. Dan's advice still stands- if AMISS doesn't open up about her sexual needs things won't get better - but if the therapist and the husband are making her feel like the guilty one for her supposed "affair," then it's time to get a new therapist. And possibly a new husband.
9
I'm with Kesh - she lost me at "I married my high school sweetheart." That said, Dan's advice is good, but I still don't think I'd give a plugged nickel for the chances of this marriage surviving. Which may not be altogether bad.
10
I think you dropped the ball on this a little, Dan.
AMISS, you did not cheat and you shouldn't feel like you need to be forgiven for having this affair when your husband didn't tell you the truth about his feelings and he said everything was okay. Neither partner should feel they need to divine the others intention. That's the kind of attitude that starts building resentment that's hard to get over.
I think you two need to get over the idea that one of you is to blame for you two growing apart sexually. You *both* need to be clear about what you need sexually and emotionally if you want to stay together.
AMISS, you did not cheat and you shouldn't feel like you need to be forgiven for having this affair when your husband didn't tell you the truth about his feelings and he said everything was okay. Neither partner should feel they need to divine the others intention. That's the kind of attitude that starts building resentment that's hard to get over.
I think you two need to get over the idea that one of you is to blame for you two growing apart sexually. You *both* need to be clear about what you need sexually and emotionally if you want to stay together.
11
Marriage has usually been more about economics and family than about passionate love, until quite recently.
The question is, by staying married, are you helping either one of you?
If the answer is no ...
The question is, by staying married, are you helping either one of you?
If the answer is no ...
12
Sometimes it really does come down to a pissing match for men ... Maybe he just needs to find another piece of ass to build up his confidence.
Oh, and get to a gym. Even on the worst days, the gym is one of the best ways for men to get confidence, and even some of that youthful stamina back ... even if you aren't using it.
Oh, and get to a gym. Even on the worst days, the gym is one of the best ways for men to get confidence, and even some of that youthful stamina back ... even if you aren't using it.
14
we don't know all the details - it could have been an agreement like "if the opportunity presents itself on a business trip" it's sanctioned, or there could have been agreed upon limits like "no people we know or people the husband could run into" or "no longterm affairs, just random hook ups." who knows....it can be hard to be on the same page and even harder to agree to terms that are impossible to guarantee, like "no emotional affairs, only physical" or whatever else the terms were. I guess only this well educated woman and her husband know if she honored their arrangement.
15
I agree with 13, AMISS. Get divorced now while the alimony will be brief and cheap. (I'm assuming from her description of her situation that she's the high earner....).
16
You don't need forgiveness for the "affair," as you had your husband's explicit permission. He needs to own that.
17
@10 - I agree completely! And perhaps they could try to come to an agreement where she is allowed to get her needs met outside the marriage. The "affair" didn't destroy them after a year, it took away the pressure for him to satisfy her in EVERY way. She admits he's a wonderful husband in all ways but this. It would be a shame to lose that because he can't conjure up a dominant side.
18
Hmm. They have problems with their both sex life AND with him contributing as an equal to the relationship (i.e., not doing any of the "grown up" stuff)? One of those is maybe fixable, but both will be tough. Not saying it's not possible, especially if the other things (you really like his company, etc.) are good. But still. You've got a lot to work on in counseling.
Also, I definitely was confused by the "affair" thing -- if he agreed to it (and she kept the conditions, if any were agreed to), then it's not an affair.
And, marrying your high school sweetheart isn't necessarily stupid, as long as you don't do it when you're 20 and as long as you've both had other serious relationships and life experiences. If he went directly from mom to wife, though, that definitely can lead to "grown up stuff" being a problem.
Also, I definitely was confused by the "affair" thing -- if he agreed to it (and she kept the conditions, if any were agreed to), then it's not an affair.
And, marrying your high school sweetheart isn't necessarily stupid, as long as you don't do it when you're 20 and as long as you've both had other serious relationships and life experiences. If he went directly from mom to wife, though, that definitely can lead to "grown up stuff" being a problem.
19
I get your point, @6, that "affair" implies "cheating," which is clearly incorrect in the context in which the husband knew and consented to what was happening. But while "cheating" is clearly incorrect in a context where no one was lying or hiding what was happening, "affair" to me could also imply something casual. I guess I'm struggling to come up with a better alternative term. Suggestions?
20
I am assuming you have no kids? Face it, this guy is never going to live up to your present standards. Do yourselves a favor and set him free to explore his own needs and "graduate" to a man who does it for you.
23
@21: I figured, maybe she dated him in HS, went on to other relationships, met him again later, married.
24
I'm wondering if maybe the counselor is the problem. It's rare to find a counselor who is able to wrap their head around the idea that sleeping with a 3rd party while you're married isn't always a transgression. If AMISS feels like the counselor isn't able to get around the idea, perhaps finding one that is familiar with and accepting of ideas like open relationships and poly. I'm not saying that having a non-exclusive relationship is the way to go for them, but someone who isn't going to condemn her past "dalliance" reflexively will probably have better luck.
25
@23 - Yeah, that's what I was thinking. You date in high school, go to college or whatever, date other people, and then marry the high school guy. I don't think that's what the letter writer did, but, in that scenario I don't think marrying the sweetheart is all that dumb.
26
How can he possibly satisfy you sexually if you don't talk about it? Unless he can read minds, you are going to have to talk to him about it or the sex will NEVER get better.
27
@4 and @9, My wife is "highly educated". Yale, now an attorney. We started going out in high school, when she was 17, I was 18. Fast forward 15 years, and our relationship is still fantastic, and we expecting our first child. We are also swingers. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
28
@25: Meh, right? I technically was introduced to my current boyfriend in high school, but I didn't even think of dating him until six, seven years later, near the end of my university career. But people still "aw" when I say we met in high school.
29
For God's sake, please make sure you're on birth control. Don't bring an innocent child into another depraved heterosexual marriage.
Your husband shouldn't blame you for the affair if you can even call it that. Sounds like he knew about it. If he didn't like it he should have spoken up. To hell with him on that issue.
BUT....
How the fuck can your husband trust anything that rolls out of your mouth when you've been dishonest about your sexual unhappiness for so long? Lying by omission is still lying. Do him a favor and let him go. He does deserve the chance to find someone who is pleased with him sexually. You need to stay single until you can learn to be honest about your feelings and needs. Until then, buy a vibrator and stay home.
Your husband shouldn't blame you for the affair if you can even call it that. Sounds like he knew about it. If he didn't like it he should have spoken up. To hell with him on that issue.
BUT....
How the fuck can your husband trust anything that rolls out of your mouth when you've been dishonest about your sexual unhappiness for so long? Lying by omission is still lying. Do him a favor and let him go. He does deserve the chance to find someone who is pleased with him sexually. You need to stay single until you can learn to be honest about your feelings and needs. Until then, buy a vibrator and stay home.
30
The guy sounds totally pathetic. She doesn't really respect him. She's looking for an out. She was hoping Dan would say, "It can't be fixed. Get out now." She should get out. This relationship was beyond repair BEFORE she slept with another dude.
31
@29 Neither was honest about their needs or feelings, that's the problem. To lay the blame on her is short sided and does no one any favors.
@22 I think dalliance should be appropriated to an external relationship from your primary without it being considered an affair or cheating.
@22 I think dalliance should be appropriated to an external relationship from your primary without it being considered an affair or cheating.
32
@4 and @9 and anyone else who posted similar after I got pissed and quit reading. I am "highly educated" if med school counts. My wife is "highly educated" if two masters and two doctorates count. We met when she was 13 and I was 15. We married right after college. That was many decades ago. We usually have sex only twice a day now but, as we have from the beginning, we continue to discuss what we like and need as those likes and needs have changed over the years. So can the high-school-sweetheart-as-a-sure-fire-failure shit.
Thank you.
Thank you.
34
@27 and @32,
Your wives are still idiots, despite being highly educated. Marrying a man before he demonstrates that he's a big boy who can take care of himself is a surefire way to become his surrogate mommy. Congratulations for not handing your wives, and by extension yourselves, a shit sandwich of a bad relationship.
Your wives are still idiots, despite being highly educated. Marrying a man before he demonstrates that he's a big boy who can take care of himself is a surefire way to become his surrogate mommy. Congratulations for not handing your wives, and by extension yourselves, a shit sandwich of a bad relationship.
37
@31 Most of our language about extra-marital activity has the implication of 'cheating'. Even dalliance has the implication you don't really have permission from the main partner, but sort of with the understanding that you didn't go all the way, just fooled around a little.
But language is fluid, and new meanings are appropriated all the time so maybe it is understood now that a dalliance has the approval of the main partner.
But language is fluid, and new meanings are appropriated all the time so maybe it is understood now that a dalliance has the approval of the main partner.
38
I wish them luck.
They have a lot of work to do, but it is doable. I agree they need to get everything out in the open, especially in the shared responsibility and sexual needs area.
I don't think this marriage needs to end in divorce. So, I'm flummoxed that some of you are suggesting that they throw in the towel. We are an interesting bunch, very opinionated/judgemental at times, and at others so giving and compassionate. How about some encouragement.
They have a lot of work to do, but it is doable. I agree they need to get everything out in the open, especially in the shared responsibility and sexual needs area.
I don't think this marriage needs to end in divorce. So, I'm flummoxed that some of you are suggesting that they throw in the towel. We are an interesting bunch, very opinionated/judgemental at times, and at others so giving and compassionate. How about some encouragement.
40
@34 why pick on "high school sweethearts" then. don't you really mean anyone who marries a man under 25? picking on a subset implies there is something unique about that subset that was material to your position.
41
DTMFA.
It sounds like they are just staying together because they don't want to hurt each other. Even if he improves in the sack, it probably won't be nearly as satisfying as someone who is sexually compatible with you would be. If he's not waving your flag now, he probably wont ever.
It sounds like they are just staying together because they don't want to hurt each other. Even if he improves in the sack, it probably won't be nearly as satisfying as someone who is sexually compatible with you would be. If he's not waving your flag now, he probably wont ever.
42
He'll be a lot less destroyed when you tell him, AMISS, if you make sure to accept your share of the responsibility for not discussing it before.
Make sure you let him know that the whole mess wasn't just his fault; it was both of you. It was a mess. Present your needs as a solution, not a problem.
Make sure you let him know that the whole mess wasn't just his fault; it was both of you. It was a mess. Present your needs as a solution, not a problem.
43
Sweetie, you're a cheating skank.
The fact that your husband gave his permission doesn't change the fact.
Let's go through your story:
Hot teenage sex, grew boring. Maybe he wasn't that into you anymore.
Hot affair for awhile, lover moved on.
ooh, do we see a pattern?
Maybe lover got tired of you, too.
Your affair completely destroyed his sexual self-confidence?
Maybe.
Or maybe it just nauseates him to plow your cheating whore ass anymore.
That he was already bored with before the affair.
Maybe he's more committed to the institution of marriage than he is to you,
but he's sticking it out out of a sense of obligation.
A misguided sense of obligation.
You should have left him before the affair.
It would have been cleaner.
Leave now.
You'll be doing him a favor.
He's too nice to ask.
Go.
He'll be grateful.
The fact that your husband gave his permission doesn't change the fact.
Let's go through your story:
Hot teenage sex, grew boring. Maybe he wasn't that into you anymore.
Hot affair for awhile, lover moved on.
ooh, do we see a pattern?
Maybe lover got tired of you, too.
Your affair completely destroyed his sexual self-confidence?
Maybe.
Or maybe it just nauseates him to plow your cheating whore ass anymore.
That he was already bored with before the affair.
Maybe he's more committed to the institution of marriage than he is to you,
but he's sticking it out out of a sense of obligation.
A misguided sense of obligation.
You should have left him before the affair.
It would have been cleaner.
Leave now.
You'll be doing him a favor.
He's too nice to ask.
Go.
He'll be grateful.
44
@34 - a man can demonstrate that he is a responsible person WAY before he ends high school.
I an NOT an idiot wife and sure as hell am not my spouse's surrogate mommy.
I'm not sure this counts as highly educated, but we both have our masters. We were high school sweethearts. We managed to put up with each other all through college before getting married - and he's the one that pays the bills, makes appointments and in general keeps track of all the important things that need keeping track of. Which is a good thing because I'm lousy that way.
I an NOT an idiot wife and sure as hell am not my spouse's surrogate mommy.
I'm not sure this counts as highly educated, but we both have our masters. We were high school sweethearts. We managed to put up with each other all through college before getting married - and he's the one that pays the bills, makes appointments and in general keeps track of all the important things that need keeping track of. Which is a good thing because I'm lousy that way.
45
GAAA! Women take note: men can't read your minds. But, it seems like that's what a lot of women want, or think should happen thanks to Disney movies and the like. If you don't want to tell your SO what you like then don't be in an adult relationship.
Yea, I'm pretty sure the MoFo wants to know what turns you on. I'd suggest in addition to talking about it outside of bed, when you're in bed suggest just telling him one thing at a time. Don't lay out your whole fantasy for him to fuck up because he didn't take notes.
Yea, I'm pretty sure the MoFo wants to know what turns you on. I'd suggest in addition to talking about it outside of bed, when you're in bed suggest just telling him one thing at a time. Don't lay out your whole fantasy for him to fuck up because he didn't take notes.
46
@45
Sorry, but this is classic male-female sexual attraction. The tip-off was "particularly because of my lover's slightly dominant side" and "He's so passive and lacking in energy that I feel bored to tears in bed". I'm sure he wants to know how to turn her on. The Catch-22 is that you're supposed to read her mind (or make it up for her) and if she has to explain it, it's not hot. As a male, you cannot win at this unless you guess right.
Sorry, but this is classic male-female sexual attraction. The tip-off was "particularly because of my lover's slightly dominant side" and "He's so passive and lacking in energy that I feel bored to tears in bed". I'm sure he wants to know how to turn her on. The Catch-22 is that you're supposed to read her mind (or make it up for her) and if she has to explain it, it's not hot. As a male, you cannot win at this unless you guess right.
47
@45 and 46
Both of you are putting all the onus on the woman being completely forthcoming but are ignoring the fact that the man kept his feelings to himself and complicated the situation by lying to her about being okay with opening the relationship.
The lack of ability to read minds works both ways.
Both of you are putting all the onus on the woman being completely forthcoming but are ignoring the fact that the man kept his feelings to himself and complicated the situation by lying to her about being okay with opening the relationship.
The lack of ability to read minds works both ways.
48
It sounds like the husband is making a lot of changes in his life, doing a lot of growing up, and getting rid of a lot of clutter. Sometimes when I am making a lot of progress in my life (like moving out, finding a new career, getting a new boyfriend, and graduating uni all in the same month), I don't mind finding out new problems to deal with. It's like "Alright, bring it on, I'm addressing everything else, lets fix this up as well". I agree with Dan, tell him now when he's currently making the changes for the relationship to work; he's at a point where he knows he has to change and he's willing to change. Don't wait several years down the road. Later on, he'll look at it like "I've already done XY and Z for you, and I'm still not good enough?" Let it all out, and put it out there on the table for him. Here's hoping you're listening and changing for him as well, Ms. Smartypants.
49
to all of you hatin' on marrying right out of high school: yes, it has its follies (my mom's first husband, ferinstance) but it does not automatically make a marriage a failure: a couple of my best friends married right out of high school, and are still happily together. (Though they say it was rocky at times.)
50
Let's dissect this letter a little, shall we?
"I'm a 26-year-old highly educated straight woman..."
Meaning: every time I talk to my husband, I'm strongly reminded of the fact that he isn't.
"...has been my best friend for half my life."
Meaning: being with him is more ingrained habit than anything else.
"Unfortunately, we had a lot of trouble adjusting to adult life together and got into a cycle where I did all the "grown up" stuff—money, housework, planning for the future—and kept hoping he'd catch up someday. He didn't."
I'm saying "we" got into a cycle, but really, he's a fuck up who expect me to be the grown-up and resents being asked to take responsibility, so I've internalized the imbalance of responsibility.
"I had sex with someone else—the first time either of us had."
I can get extramarital partners. He can't.
"I was blown away by how hot the sex was."
I was getting my first taste of sexual skills that had matured past the high school stage.
"My husband knew about it all along and would tell me it was still fine if I asked, but, as I should have known, it wasn't really OK and was driving him crazy."
I've gotten so used to taking responsibility for everything in this relationship that I expect myself to know when my husband's feelings are the exact opposite of what he says they are and I take the blame for those times.
"We've been in counseling for four months and he has come a long way in seeing what he has to do to be a partner for me (as well as forgiving me for the affair..."
We're seeing a typical conservative counselor who doesn't understand open relationships and therefore, the affair was a cardinal sin that now makes every other problem in the relationship my fault.
"I'm trying hard to give us a real chance."
I trying hard out of a sense of guilt and obligation. I really, really don't want to.
DTMFA. Yesterday.
More...
"I'm a 26-year-old highly educated straight woman..."
Meaning: every time I talk to my husband, I'm strongly reminded of the fact that he isn't.
"...has been my best friend for half my life."
Meaning: being with him is more ingrained habit than anything else.
"Unfortunately, we had a lot of trouble adjusting to adult life together and got into a cycle where I did all the "grown up" stuff—money, housework, planning for the future—and kept hoping he'd catch up someday. He didn't."
I'm saying "we" got into a cycle, but really, he's a fuck up who expect me to be the grown-up and resents being asked to take responsibility, so I've internalized the imbalance of responsibility.
"I had sex with someone else—the first time either of us had."
I can get extramarital partners. He can't.
"I was blown away by how hot the sex was."
I was getting my first taste of sexual skills that had matured past the high school stage.
"My husband knew about it all along and would tell me it was still fine if I asked, but, as I should have known, it wasn't really OK and was driving him crazy."
I've gotten so used to taking responsibility for everything in this relationship that I expect myself to know when my husband's feelings are the exact opposite of what he says they are and I take the blame for those times.
"We've been in counseling for four months and he has come a long way in seeing what he has to do to be a partner for me (as well as forgiving me for the affair..."
We're seeing a typical conservative counselor who doesn't understand open relationships and therefore, the affair was a cardinal sin that now makes every other problem in the relationship my fault.
"I'm trying hard to give us a real chance."
I trying hard out of a sense of guilt and obligation. I really, really don't want to.
DTMFA. Yesterday.
51
I think most people are against high-school sweethearts marrying at a young age. Or anyone marrying at a young age. The younger the couple, the greater the chances of the marriage ending in divorce. Teenagers are immature twits. Trust me on this, I used to be one. I am so far different than the person I was in high-school, I can't even imagine what it would be like to be with my high-school sweetie. I have a feeling it would be disastrous though.
p.s. I don't see why the lady has to feel guilty for or apologize for cheating. She had sex with another guy with her husband's consent. If he didn't have the rocks to man up, and say "no" that's hardly her fault. Sounds like he's a real wuss and maybe she'd be better off moving on.
p.s. I don't see why the lady has to feel guilty for or apologize for cheating. She had sex with another guy with her husband's consent. If he didn't have the rocks to man up, and say "no" that's hardly her fault. Sounds like he's a real wuss and maybe she'd be better off moving on.
52
@47
You're right that he should have told her that he was not comfortable with the open relationship. The fact that he didn't, for a YEAR, is consistent with other information suggesting that he is a man-child. However, AMISS was hesitant to disclose HER true sexual desires–relatively common sexual desires for a strait woman–and I was addressing this. So, sorry if I offended anyone by suggesting that AMISS, and other women, should be assertive about their sexual desires.
You're right that he should have told her that he was not comfortable with the open relationship. The fact that he didn't, for a YEAR, is consistent with other information suggesting that he is a man-child. However, AMISS was hesitant to disclose HER true sexual desires–relatively common sexual desires for a strait woman–and I was addressing this. So, sorry if I offended anyone by suggesting that AMISS, and other women, should be assertive about their sexual desires.
53
@38/39 Why do we want to encourage a relationship that is failing on multiple levels? This is what I've never understood about our society. Look up "sunk-cost fallacy".
@50 You've nailed it exactly. Everyone should read your analysis.
@50 You've nailed it exactly. Everyone should read your analysis.
54
@34 My, my. Aren't we judgmental.
I suppose my husband doesn't count as a high school sweetheart, but since I met him at my college orientation does that mean I get to sign up for some verbal abuse too? Oh, goody.
Look, people meet in all sorts of weird times and places. Sometimes they get hitched. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it works because the people in question aren't (a) as stupid as you'd like to think, and (b) aren't basing their decision making on generalizations, but rather the person in front of them. Which is why these generalizations you're so fond of are eliciting an unpleasant response: they're not so much helpful as insulting. Although, I imagine they're helpful in the sense that they help you feel superior.
I suppose my husband doesn't count as a high school sweetheart, but since I met him at my college orientation does that mean I get to sign up for some verbal abuse too? Oh, goody.
Look, people meet in all sorts of weird times and places. Sometimes they get hitched. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it works because the people in question aren't (a) as stupid as you'd like to think, and (b) aren't basing their decision making on generalizations, but rather the person in front of them. Which is why these generalizations you're so fond of are eliciting an unpleasant response: they're not so much helpful as insulting. Although, I imagine they're helpful in the sense that they help you feel superior.
55
Excellant advice. What you want in a relationship is intimacy. If you aren't willing to tell the truth then you are not willing to be intimate.
She thinks the problem is with her husband, when it actually is with her.
She thinks the problem is with her husband, when it actually is with her.
56
I was going to respond to Kim and explain why I thought this was hopeless but 50 has done a superb job already.
Kim, they've got nothing but nothing to make a marriage of at this point. It's all over but for the paying of the lawyers.
Kim, they've got nothing but nothing to make a marriage of at this point. It's all over but for the paying of the lawyers.
57
It is a shame how carelessly and thoughtlessly straight people treat the institution of marriage, which incidentally, they claim is the foundation of civilization or some such grandiose/hypocritical bs.
58
Hey Attitude Devant,
Your welcome to your opinion. I've seen real live marriages survive much worse than what this letter contains. I, also, don't think that anyone can make a judgement based off of a single letter, unless they are the author of the letter. Factor in the fact that Savage doesn't hesitate to tell someone to DTMFA when he feels that it is the only option. Now there is an excellent chance that Laurel @ 50 is on the money, but there is also a chance that Savage edited out some of the letter that would explain why he didn't tell her to DTMFA.
So, this is only my opinion, you're welcome to yours, but making a judgement call on another couples relationship based off of a single letter seems presumptive to me, especially in this instance. Perhaps, if Savage had told her to divorce him, then I would presume that I was missing part of the story, but he didn't this time.
So, I'm going to error on encouraging them to be open and honest about everything, then decide if they are willing to put in the work that is required for a marriage. If they decide not to, then the the encouragement didn't hurt, because all relationships need be open and honest and they can do better in future relationships, but if they want the marriage then encouragement has the potential to help.
The beautiful thing about all this is that they can ignore everyone, including Savage, and especially me.
Your welcome to your opinion. I've seen real live marriages survive much worse than what this letter contains. I, also, don't think that anyone can make a judgement based off of a single letter, unless they are the author of the letter. Factor in the fact that Savage doesn't hesitate to tell someone to DTMFA when he feels that it is the only option. Now there is an excellent chance that Laurel @ 50 is on the money, but there is also a chance that Savage edited out some of the letter that would explain why he didn't tell her to DTMFA.
So, this is only my opinion, you're welcome to yours, but making a judgement call on another couples relationship based off of a single letter seems presumptive to me, especially in this instance. Perhaps, if Savage had told her to divorce him, then I would presume that I was missing part of the story, but he didn't this time.
So, I'm going to error on encouraging them to be open and honest about everything, then decide if they are willing to put in the work that is required for a marriage. If they decide not to, then the the encouragement didn't hurt, because all relationships need be open and honest and they can do better in future relationships, but if they want the marriage then encouragement has the potential to help.
The beautiful thing about all this is that they can ignore everyone, including Savage, and especially me.
60
Why does everyone assume that AMISS did not communicate her sexual desires to her husband? It seems to me that she must have given some reason to him for opening up their marriage. In my experience, that is a much more explict conversation about sex than most straight couples ever have.
All I have to go by is an anonymous letter to an advice columnist, and commenting on this type of site is, almost by definition, judgemental because NO ONE is capable of being completely objective about sex. Not even Dan. We all bring our own experiences and biases to the party.
Judgemental is not a bad word to me. If I am taking the time to comment, it means that I have given the matter serious and careful thought. I have paid attention, as best I can, evaluated whatever I have seen/heard/read and tried to form as rational an opinion as possible. IMO, the word judgemental gets a bad, and very unfair, rep here and in many other places. To me it is not about blind obedience to social norms, repression or unkindness. It is about thinking, and I think that thinking is very good thing to do.
Blah, blah, blah. In my judgement, AMISS is in a marriage that is probably as dead as Monty Python's parrot and there is no point in nailing it to a perch and pretending it's still alive. Raging adolescent hormones are not a very reliable indicator of adult sexual compatibility. This couple seems more like roomates and good friends than lovers and spouses. They just don't have the chemistry and I doubt that talking can create it here. Often the best thing a marriage counselor can do is to help people end a marriage. These people are still very young. They have a better chance of attracting partners who will make them both much happier if they end this now. It would be tragic if they tried to make something unworkable work until they were 46, had two kids, and couldn't tolerate each other for one more second.
More...
All I have to go by is an anonymous letter to an advice columnist, and commenting on this type of site is, almost by definition, judgemental because NO ONE is capable of being completely objective about sex. Not even Dan. We all bring our own experiences and biases to the party.
Judgemental is not a bad word to me. If I am taking the time to comment, it means that I have given the matter serious and careful thought. I have paid attention, as best I can, evaluated whatever I have seen/heard/read and tried to form as rational an opinion as possible. IMO, the word judgemental gets a bad, and very unfair, rep here and in many other places. To me it is not about blind obedience to social norms, repression or unkindness. It is about thinking, and I think that thinking is very good thing to do.
Blah, blah, blah. In my judgement, AMISS is in a marriage that is probably as dead as Monty Python's parrot and there is no point in nailing it to a perch and pretending it's still alive. Raging adolescent hormones are not a very reliable indicator of adult sexual compatibility. This couple seems more like roomates and good friends than lovers and spouses. They just don't have the chemistry and I doubt that talking can create it here. Often the best thing a marriage counselor can do is to help people end a marriage. These people are still very young. They have a better chance of attracting partners who will make them both much happier if they end this now. It would be tragic if they tried to make something unworkable work until they were 46, had two kids, and couldn't tolerate each other for one more second.
62
Wow, I nearly could have written this letter two years ago. I had been with a high school boyfriend for 6 years (we actually got serious in our last year of college, but had dated in high school, and grown up together). Things were awesome for a while - like AMISS's husband, he was warm, funny, great to talk to - but it took him a long time to grow into an adult relationship, and, like AMISS, I got frustrated and our sexual relationship began to tank as well. We talked and talked, and things would start to get better, but the sex never really became what I wanted it to be. He was passive in bed and it's just not sexy telling someone what you like 6+ times, and then having to ask for it any time you wanted it. At what point do pretty routine requests just get added to the menu?
I didn't go the open route, I cheated, for a couple months. I did tell him eventually.He did even wanted to stay together after that, but it was a mess. I finally realized we were making each other miserable (yeah, I was a little slow, but hard to leave someone who was your best friend for 17 years).
Anyway, long story long, we both moved on, and are both much happier. I've found a great guy, who is mature, has his stuff together, and our sex life isn't something that needs to be discussed and dissected within an inch of its life, we're just compatible, and that's sexy.
I guess I just wanted to add my two cents that it can be incredibly hard to leave a good person who has been a participant in so much of your life. But it can be easier and better for both people in the long run if they go their separate ways.
I guess AMISS just needs to ask herself that if the sex doesn't improve, despite talking, would she be happy having that kind of sex for the rest of her life? It sounds like the answer is no.
More...
I didn't go the open route, I cheated, for a couple months. I did tell him eventually.He did even wanted to stay together after that, but it was a mess. I finally realized we were making each other miserable (yeah, I was a little slow, but hard to leave someone who was your best friend for 17 years).
Anyway, long story long, we both moved on, and are both much happier. I've found a great guy, who is mature, has his stuff together, and our sex life isn't something that needs to be discussed and dissected within an inch of its life, we're just compatible, and that's sexy.
I guess I just wanted to add my two cents that it can be incredibly hard to leave a good person who has been a participant in so much of your life. But it can be easier and better for both people in the long run if they go their separate ways.
I guess AMISS just needs to ask herself that if the sex doesn't improve, despite talking, would she be happy having that kind of sex for the rest of her life? It sounds like the answer is no.
63
Kim @58, I seem to have offended you and I am sorry--it was quite without intention.
I think AMISS has a remarkable ability to find what she needs. She went outside her marriage to get....ahhh...whatever she was trying to get, and she went outside her counseling to get advice from a another party (that would be Dan). If she reads our comments, and I doubt that she will, I'm sure she'll display that very adaptive capacity in taking what is useful to her. Having been in a similar situation (minus the open marriage-darn it! why didn't I think of that?) it would have been refreshing and very helpful to hear one person in my world suggest that maybe it was just better to bail. On the other hand she may indeed find your comments encouraging. But as you say, she may disregard it all as she chooses, particularly since neither you nor I are here in our usual professional capacities.
Occasionally we do see letter writers jumping into the comments, but not much. When they do, I am always amused to see how selective they are in hearing what Dan said. A case in point was the closeted gay in love with his stepbro a few weeks back. Dan said, Come out and own who you are and THEN deal with your stepbro. What did the guy take from that? He weighed in at the end of the comments with his plan: he's gonna come out TO his stepbro!
So much for Dan's influence! Anyway, peace to you this gray PNW morning!
I think AMISS has a remarkable ability to find what she needs. She went outside her marriage to get....ahhh...whatever she was trying to get, and she went outside her counseling to get advice from a another party (that would be Dan). If she reads our comments, and I doubt that she will, I'm sure she'll display that very adaptive capacity in taking what is useful to her. Having been in a similar situation (minus the open marriage-darn it! why didn't I think of that?) it would have been refreshing and very helpful to hear one person in my world suggest that maybe it was just better to bail. On the other hand she may indeed find your comments encouraging. But as you say, she may disregard it all as she chooses, particularly since neither you nor I are here in our usual professional capacities.
Occasionally we do see letter writers jumping into the comments, but not much. When they do, I am always amused to see how selective they are in hearing what Dan said. A case in point was the closeted gay in love with his stepbro a few weeks back. Dan said, Come out and own who you are and THEN deal with your stepbro. What did the guy take from that? He weighed in at the end of the comments with his plan: he's gonna come out TO his stepbro!
So much for Dan's influence! Anyway, peace to you this gray PNW morning!
64
Attitude Devant,
I'm not offended. I'm not sure why you think that I am, but let me assure you that I am not. I appreciated reading your thoughts. Sorry, if my response sounded cold, angry, or offended, that simply wasn't my feelings then or now. Thank you for the feedback.
Enjoy the gray, I found it makes the other colors appear more spectacular and worth noting as I pass by. Today is a day to wear yellow!
Take care.
I'm not offended. I'm not sure why you think that I am, but let me assure you that I am not. I appreciated reading your thoughts. Sorry, if my response sounded cold, angry, or offended, that simply wasn't my feelings then or now. Thank you for the feedback.
Enjoy the gray, I found it makes the other colors appear more spectacular and worth noting as I pass by. Today is a day to wear yellow!
Take care.
65
Attitude Devant,
Ps. You should know that I am not a professional, that is not to say that I haven't undergone training, etc. Nor, am I paid. I used to serve through a faith based DV program here in Portland, but I'm not with that program at this time. It would be mistaken to consider me and what I do as being equivalent to your position as a physician. Sorry, if you thought differently or if I made it sound professional. It simply isn't a career, it's all volunteer work.
Ps. You should know that I am not a professional, that is not to say that I haven't undergone training, etc. Nor, am I paid. I used to serve through a faith based DV program here in Portland, but I'm not with that program at this time. It would be mistaken to consider me and what I do as being equivalent to your position as a physician. Sorry, if you thought differently or if I made it sound professional. It simply isn't a career, it's all volunteer work.
66
Oh Kim I think you sell yourself short. You have expertise and you employ it in the service of others. It may not be professional in the sense that you are not paid but your attitude and your dedication ooze professionalism. Own it, dear. And I mean that as a most sincere compliment.
67
keshmeshi, my wife and I dated (but were exclusive) for 10 years before we were married. We went to colleges 5 hours apart, and survived the long distance thing. I think she had plenty of time to figure that I'm a "big boy". I await your next fool attempt to frame my wife as an idiot for marrying me.
69
I don't think there is any need to bash someone for marrying their high-school sweetheart and say that such action is contrary to being "highly-educated" which is what many people are arguing about... I agree with 3 on a point no one else seems to be mentioning, which is why is it even relevant that she is highly educated? Who cares?
Although I do agree with 50, that maybe the reason she mentions it is because it's her way of saying "he isn't."
Although I do agree with 50, that maybe the reason she mentions it is because it's her way of saying "he isn't."
71
30 & 70. yes, too true. part of her is attached sentimentally, the other part of her wants out in the worst way.
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