Slog
News & ArtsFriday, January 15, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: I Wanna Know What Love Is
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:39 PM
A question for you: Is it OK to lie about telling someone you're in love with them?I'm a straight male in his 40s and I have never been in love. I was abandoned at an early age and while I've risen above that, and while I enjoy a successful career, I've never really felt what love seems to be about. I've never met someone who I couldn't be without. Given my upbringing, or lack thereof, I know I have issues and I have been seeing therapists for many years.
For the last year I've being seeing a wonderful woman and while I know I could live without her I don't want to and she seems keen to be with me too. But while she's dropped several hints (“I love doing [XYZ] with you”) I've never actually used the L-word with her because I don't want to lie. The fact is I could walk away from this relationship and, sure, it would hurt a little, but life would carry on.
We're about to move together and while I know I really like this person I suspect it hurts her that I haven't professed my love. I want to make her happy so should I just lie, say I love her and get it out of the way? I know I'd never want to hurt her, and would be happy spending the rest of my life with her—there's a deep sense of peace in my heart when we hold each other—but love? I don't think so.
Do I lie and make her happy? Or don't say anything and risk destroying the relationship?
No Interesting Acronym
P.S. I know this probably isn't sexy enough to make it into the column but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
My response after the jump.
You say that you've never felt love, NIA, and don't really know what love is, and then you dismiss the possibility that you could be in love with this woman. ("...but love? I don't think so.") With all due respect: how the fuck would you know?
You don't know what love is, remember?
Now it's clear that you feel something for this woman, NIA. You feel a sense of peace when you're with this woman, you can see yourself spending your life with her, you want to make her happy—I would strongly advise you to give yourself—and give this woman—the benefit of the doubt and slap the label "love" on the feelings that you have for her. Because you feel the same way about this woman that I feel about my boyfriend: I have a sense of peace when I'm with him (except for those moments when I want to kill him), I want to spend my life with him (except for those moments when I want to kill him), and I want to make him happy (except for those moments when I want to kill him). And I know what love is, NIA, and I'm in love with my boyfriend and you'll just have to take my word for it—the word of someone who can recognize love when it's eating his ass—when I say that you're in love with this woman.
And just because you can picture yourself getting by without her, NIA, doesn't mean that you aren't in love her now and can't make up your mind to love her always. Because love isn't a wave that washes over you and sweeps you away. It's that, or it can be that, particularly at the start. But love—true love, lasting love—is as much an act of will, a decision, a conscious and thoughtful—and loving—choice we make, as it is a feeling outside of our control. Make up your mind to love with this woman, NIA, and then it won't be a lie when you say, "I love you," to her.
And this one goes out to the man I love...
1
He should get her preggers and then realize he's not in love with her ...
(no, that is not actual advice, just what some people do ... sadly ...)
(no, that is not actual advice, just what some people do ... sadly ...)
2
Great advice as always....my thoughts exactly. What is the difference between feeling all the things you feel when you're in love and BEING in love??
3
Love that says "I couldn't live without you" isn't worth the bullshit it's made out of. Of course you can; you can live without your goddamn arms and legs. The love that matters is the love that CHOOSES her. And it doesn't matter what kind of tingly feelings you get or fear that you should be getting; what matters isn't where you are, but where you're going. This is why relationships based on "we like the same things" are often doomed, because when one of you starts liking something else -- and one or both of you will, guaranteed -- you've lost the thing that's holding you together. If you have a commitment to the future, that doesn't happen; you are accepting that "I want to be with this person" even after you change. Otherwise you're just stuck in a bad Lifetime romcom forever.
I agree: this guy's in love with her in every sense that matters. And I think by facing that, and telling her that, he'll grow to feel love. I would tell her exactly what you told us: "I don't know what love is, but I care for you and want to go into the future with you, and I think that's love enough. Will you come with me?"
I agree: this guy's in love with her in every sense that matters. And I think by facing that, and telling her that, he'll grow to feel love. I would tell her exactly what you told us: "I don't know what love is, but I care for you and want to go into the future with you, and I think that's love enough. Will you come with me?"
5
Aw, NIA, sorry for your upbringing. I understand that it has shaped you into the independent person you are, and it makes you critical of what love is life or how it should seem.
I think Dan is correct. You do love this woman, you just can't articulate your feelings as love. So you express them as wanting to be with her, feeling peace in her presence, wanting to make her happy, not wanting to hurt her, etc. Now, you have to learn to grow in it, and that is a choice. Love is also work, too.
Go re-read Dan's advice, and Fnarf (and the comments of others). Try having faith that love exists, that your heart loves, even when you can't define it. Then choose to grow in love and in understanding its many facets.
I think Dan is correct. You do love this woman, you just can't articulate your feelings as love. So you express them as wanting to be with her, feeling peace in her presence, wanting to make her happy, not wanting to hurt her, etc. Now, you have to learn to grow in it, and that is a choice. Love is also work, too.
Go re-read Dan's advice, and Fnarf (and the comments of others). Try having faith that love exists, that your heart loves, even when you can't define it. Then choose to grow in love and in understanding its many facets.
6
Because love isn't a wave that washes over you and sweeps you away. It's that, or it can be that, particularly at the start. But love—true love, lasting love—is as much an act of will, a decision, a conscious and thoughtful—and loving—choice we make, as it is a feeling outside of our control.
This could easily be an argument for an arranged marriage, as well. I differ- I think if he was in love with her, he would feel passionately about wanting her in his life.
It sucks if she is hurting because he hasn't professed his love for her, but she is ultimately responsible for her own emotions. If doesn't really love her, saying so does her a disservice. It might end up hurting her a lot more in the end.
This could easily be an argument for an arranged marriage, as well. I differ- I think if he was in love with her, he would feel passionately about wanting her in his life.
It sucks if she is hurting because he hasn't professed his love for her, but she is ultimately responsible for her own emotions. If doesn't really love her, saying so does her a disservice. It might end up hurting her a lot more in the end.
8
You were not only abandoned as a child, you've been exposed to too many bad rom-coms. Movies and TV paint an idealistic, and unrealistic, notion of what love is. So because you are not transported to some etherial plain of existence where you can't bare to spend a moment away from this woman, you don't think you can call it "love".
But you seem to feel deeply for her, and you want to spend your life with her and make her happy. Those are all loving thoughts.
If you can't say you love her, then tell her what you've told Dan. Try to explain how difficult it is for you to use the word "love". Tell her how you feel about her, even if you don't use the word "love". If she has any sense of empathy at all, she'll get it, and be fine.
But you seem to feel deeply for her, and you want to spend your life with her and make her happy. Those are all loving thoughts.
If you can't say you love her, then tell her what you've told Dan. Try to explain how difficult it is for you to use the word "love". Tell her how you feel about her, even if you don't use the word "love". If she has any sense of empathy at all, she'll get it, and be fine.
9
@6 - I think the point is, he DOES feel passionately about having her in his life...just not in some fucked up co-dependent Disney movie way. You don't have to be feeling infatuation in order to be feeling love.
10
uoh oh...
Oh I don't know what can I do
what else can I say it's up to you
I know we're one just me and you
I can't go on
What is love ?...
Baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
no more
What is love
Baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
no more
Oh I don't know what can I do
what else can I say it's up to you
I know we're one just me and you
I can't go on
What is love ?...
Baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
no more
What is love
Baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
no more
12
Agreed with everyone's thoughts. Being at peace around her, feeling like you could spend the rest of your life with her, feeling more like yourself around her, being happy with her. These are all good signs of love.
I've never been accused of being overly sentimental, so I've always kind of liked these poems/excerpts about love. They're a nice antidote to the typical "I can't live without you" idealization of love.
"Love is not breathlessness,
it is not excitement,
it is not the promulgation of eternal passion.
That is just being 'in love' which any fool can do.
Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away,
and this is both an art and a fortunate accident.
Those that truly love
have roots that grow towards each other underground,
and when all the pretty blossoms have fallen from their branches,
they find that they are one tree and not two." --Louis de Bernieres
"Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction". -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
I've never been accused of being overly sentimental, so I've always kind of liked these poems/excerpts about love. They're a nice antidote to the typical "I can't live without you" idealization of love.
"Love is not breathlessness,
it is not excitement,
it is not the promulgation of eternal passion.
That is just being 'in love' which any fool can do.
Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away,
and this is both an art and a fortunate accident.
Those that truly love
have roots that grow towards each other underground,
and when all the pretty blossoms have fallen from their branches,
they find that they are one tree and not two." --Louis de Bernieres
"Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction". -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
13
Maybe he could ask her how she would define "love" and then he can decide if his feelings fit that definition?
14
What's that old saw about loving something & setting it free?
Geez, NIA, I've been tied down in that "I can't let you go, I don't know what I'd do w/o you" infatuation crap so many times, it looks like up to me. You got it lucky, you should enjoy it.
Because, after learning the hard way, you're a lot closer to true love than most people. Enjoying someone, sharing life w/ them, and knowing it's not the end of the world w/o them makes every moment together that much richer. Being compelled to do something is a drag. Choosing of your own free will is a blast.
Geez, NIA, I've been tied down in that "I can't let you go, I don't know what I'd do w/o you" infatuation crap so many times, it looks like up to me. You got it lucky, you should enjoy it.
Because, after learning the hard way, you're a lot closer to true love than most people. Enjoying someone, sharing life w/ them, and knowing it's not the end of the world w/o them makes every moment together that much richer. Being compelled to do something is a drag. Choosing of your own free will is a blast.
15
C'mon. this is Slog. You all are being so nice.
Isn't he just a little bit of a douchebag for considering the idea of LYING TO HER AND SAYING THAT HE LOVES HER? WHEN IT'S JUST A BIG FRIGGING LIE?
Isn't it just a little bit -a tad!- selfish that he's thinking of lying to her so that she doesn't leave him (that's got to be the motivation for a such a lie).
If she loves him and their relationship, then even if he tells her that he isn't sure what love is, she will make the decision to stick with him. But fer crissakes, let her make that decision.
The guy is thoughtful, and maybe that relationship isn't doomed, but man, someone should kick him in the ass for that. You don't lie about love.
Isn't he just a little bit of a douchebag for considering the idea of LYING TO HER AND SAYING THAT HE LOVES HER? WHEN IT'S JUST A BIG FRIGGING LIE?
Isn't it just a little bit -a tad!- selfish that he's thinking of lying to her so that she doesn't leave him (that's got to be the motivation for a such a lie).
If she loves him and their relationship, then even if he tells her that he isn't sure what love is, she will make the decision to stick with him. But fer crissakes, let her make that decision.
The guy is thoughtful, and maybe that relationship isn't doomed, but man, someone should kick him in the ass for that. You don't lie about love.
16
NIA: I've never really felt what love seems to be about. . . . For the last year I've being seeing a wonderful woman and while I know I could live without her I don't want to . . . I know I'd never want to hurt her, and would be happy spending the rest of my life with her—there's a deep sense of peace in my heart when we hold each other...
Sounds to me like you're finally feeling it.
Sounds to me like you're finally feeling it.
20
@12 - that's beautiful. thanks for sharing.
and NIA- if you could see yourself spending the rest of your life with her, and you feel at peace with her (which is something, considering you said you had a tough childhood), that's love. Not the movie-kind-of-love, but genuine love. You don't have to be "in-love" with someone to love them nonetheless.
and NIA- if you could see yourself spending the rest of your life with her, and you feel at peace with her (which is something, considering you said you had a tough childhood), that's love. Not the movie-kind-of-love, but genuine love. You don't have to be "in-love" with someone to love them nonetheless.
21
One of the problems with what people think of as "love" is that it's supposed to be no-holds-barred, unconditional, etc. But human beings DO need to protect themselves. I didn't know what THAT kind of love was until there was a non-judgmental animal in my life! Then I understood that I'd always reserved something of myself in my marriage and in my close friendships, for protection against abandonment, disappointment, whatever. Forgive me if this sounds weird, but I knew that an animal wouldn't hurt my feelings. That clarified the kind of love I feel for my husband, friends, and family members, and made it okay to hold a little of myself back, deep inside.
22
Great advice, Dan and Fnarf and Kim in Portland. Hard to say what love is, but you managed to do so!
23
I'm glad people are offering clues to how you think, feel and act when you love someone. When your formative years were spent in the equivalent of an eastern bloc orphanage, you don't feel what 'normal' people feel and don't recognize signs, sensations, behaviors. I totally relate to what NIA described.
24
Maybe it's all the love you will ever feel. If that's true, why throw it away? I don't think there is a pat answer to what love is but you come close with what you describe. If you nourish it and grow with it, it could be wonderful. Independent people want to feel they don't need anyone else to survive. But you do need someone else to feel love. Go with it.
26
I still think this guy got it 100% right:
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
27
On one hand, I agree with lotosesser... cold.
But by the same token, I find the word love so annoying. I mean, let's face it. Its meaning is subjective, when one person says to another "I love you" the other person has no way of knowing what is meant by that.
People who need to be told that they're loved just end up putting pressure on others to lie.
Why not just describe how you feel? e.g. "I feel a deep sense of peace when I'm with you, I want to make you happy, I want to be with you for the rest of my life..." or whatever it is.
That actually conveys some truth, whereas 'love' says a lot less. I find that the prepondency of a person to say " I love you" says more about their comfort levels with that word, than anything.
And love is something you prove through your actions. You can say you love someone and then treat them like shit.
But by the same token, I find the word love so annoying. I mean, let's face it. Its meaning is subjective, when one person says to another "I love you" the other person has no way of knowing what is meant by that.
People who need to be told that they're loved just end up putting pressure on others to lie.
Why not just describe how you feel? e.g. "I feel a deep sense of peace when I'm with you, I want to make you happy, I want to be with you for the rest of my life..." or whatever it is.
That actually conveys some truth, whereas 'love' says a lot less. I find that the prepondency of a person to say " I love you" says more about their comfort levels with that word, than anything.
And love is something you prove through your actions. You can say you love someone and then treat them like shit.
28
Let's get rid of the Foreigner earworm with some Howard Jones, shall we?
What is looooooove anyway
Does anybody love anybody anyway
"But love—true love, lasting love—is as much an act of will, a decision, a conscious and thoughtful—and loving—choice we make, as it is a feeling outside of our control."
I agree. Well said.
What is looooooove anyway
Does anybody love anybody anyway
"But love—true love, lasting love—is as much an act of will, a decision, a conscious and thoughtful—and loving—choice we make, as it is a feeling outside of our control."
I agree. Well said.
29
Love,huh? He said:
...while I know I could live without her I don't want to ...
Well, that's true of all of us who love. Our nearest and dearest could die tomorrow and yet, we would wake up alive. We might stay in bed for months but we'd still be here. And we would go on.
Life with someone who gives you comfort, strength, fun, and yes, love is a lot easier than going through it alone and I think NIA knows it. He tries to be slightly flip (I'm thinking to protect his heart) but it seems clear that this woman means a lot to him.
But love is an odd word because we "love" many people and things in different ways. The love you have for your parents is not the same at 20 as 40. It's the same for romantic love. You can't operate on high passion your whole life; that's a fairy tale. But real love does grow and does deepen and does sustain you.
Just some thoughts after 25+ years of marriage.
...while I know I could live without her I don't want to ...
Well, that's true of all of us who love. Our nearest and dearest could die tomorrow and yet, we would wake up alive. We might stay in bed for months but we'd still be here. And we would go on.
Life with someone who gives you comfort, strength, fun, and yes, love is a lot easier than going through it alone and I think NIA knows it. He tries to be slightly flip (I'm thinking to protect his heart) but it seems clear that this woman means a lot to him.
But love is an odd word because we "love" many people and things in different ways. The love you have for your parents is not the same at 20 as 40. It's the same for romantic love. You can't operate on high passion your whole life; that's a fairy tale. But real love does grow and does deepen and does sustain you.
Just some thoughts after 25+ years of marriage.
34
It's hard for me to relate to the guy who wrote in, since it's so natural for me to recognize what love feels like. At first, I thought, "Well, he should just be honest with her about his feelings, then." But after reading Dan's response, and his doubt in NIA of even knowing what love is...
It's just baffling to me. It's like not knowing what touch is, even though a person may be experiencing it.
It's just baffling to me. It's like not knowing what touch is, even though a person may be experiencing it.
35
This guy's feelings fit Dan's definition of love, and mine, and a slew of commenters.
He could say to her "I don't want to live without you, I don't want to lie to you, I never want to hurt you, I will be happy spending the rest of my life with you, and there is a deep sense of peace in my heart when we hold each other." And then he could agree to abbreviate that sentiment into a single word for future reference. Most people just say the word "love," but maybe some other word works better for him. Remember how Patrick Swaze in Ghost would say "Ditto" and it was the sweetest thing ever?
A conversation about what love is could be really sweet and special for these two and mean a lot more than the guy just saying "I love you" without further definition. As a girl, if a guy said all that to me, I would know he loves me even if he was afraid of using that four letter word.
He could say to her "I don't want to live without you, I don't want to lie to you, I never want to hurt you, I will be happy spending the rest of my life with you, and there is a deep sense of peace in my heart when we hold each other." And then he could agree to abbreviate that sentiment into a single word for future reference. Most people just say the word "love," but maybe some other word works better for him. Remember how Patrick Swaze in Ghost would say "Ditto" and it was the sweetest thing ever?
A conversation about what love is could be really sweet and special for these two and mean a lot more than the guy just saying "I love you" without further definition. As a girl, if a guy said all that to me, I would know he loves me even if he was afraid of using that four letter word.
36
@26: I agree. The best line, I think, is "Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds"
That is what this guy should focus on. Yes, moods swing, passion ebbs and flows. But if after all that, if when you get home from a crappy day at work and she too had a crappy day so is not really in the cuddling mood, you'd still rather be pissed off at each other than in the reckless throws of romance with anyone else, then that is love.
That is what this guy should focus on. Yes, moods swing, passion ebbs and flows. But if after all that, if when you get home from a crappy day at work and she too had a crappy day so is not really in the cuddling mood, you'd still rather be pissed off at each other than in the reckless throws of romance with anyone else, then that is love.
38
@12; by that definition, I've been "in love," but I've never known "love." I gave up on trying to find it, and I've been alone ever since. It gets easier. I used to cry about it, but it is possible to cry yourself out.
I wouldn't lie about it though. I guess you could be honest about it, but risks ending your relationship.
I wouldn't lie about it though. I guess you could be honest about it, but risks ending your relationship.
40
Dan: Nicely done! Bonus points for the Avenue Q reference- truer words were never spoken.
@12: Loved the quotes!
NIA: Try to recognize love in ordinary situations. When my now-husband and I visited Europe with some friends, we found ourselves on an overnight, mostly empty bus from Bulgaria to Greece. All of our friends scattered to pairs of seats so they could stretch out, but the two of us preferred to stay next to each other. Love is when you choose to sit together even when sitting apart is more comfortable.
@12: Loved the quotes!
NIA: Try to recognize love in ordinary situations. When my now-husband and I visited Europe with some friends, we found ourselves on an overnight, mostly empty bus from Bulgaria to Greece. All of our friends scattered to pairs of seats so they could stretch out, but the two of us preferred to stay next to each other. Love is when you choose to sit together even when sitting apart is more comfortable.
41
It seems like a pretty good sign that she's stayed with this guy for a year without hearing the L word. She's probably not into the codependency, either. If he tells the truth, rather than trying to wrap it up in a Disney package, he might do fine.
Though I agree he's just being ridiculous and not recognizing something that's common as dirt. Grown-up love and fourteen-year-old love feel different.
Though I agree he's just being ridiculous and not recognizing something that's common as dirt. Grown-up love and fourteen-year-old love feel different.
42
I'd never want to hurt her, and would be happy spending the rest of my life with her—there's a deep sense of peace in my heart when we hold each other—but love? I don't think so.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
But seriously. I suspect because of the abandonment issues, NIA has never allowed himself to need or become dependent on another person. If so, he probably has not suffered an overwhelming crisis or loss since he was abandoned. Not that I recommend them, they do tend to clarify relationship issues (like what is love and whether you are in love).
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
But seriously. I suspect because of the abandonment issues, NIA has never allowed himself to need or become dependent on another person. If so, he probably has not suffered an overwhelming crisis or loss since he was abandoned. Not that I recommend them, they do tend to clarify relationship issues (like what is love and whether you are in love).
44
There are plenty of people of the "analytical" type, as the writer seems to be, where emotions never swell and wash over them. It is a disservice to them to imply that they do not have emotions...they simply don't feel them the same way or with the same intensity that other types of people do. So it's good to hear Dan say that love also involves the will.
I agree with what most everyone has said...tell her you love her. If she has been with you this long, she knows you're not the emotional-gusher type, so she won't expect lots of flowery language to accompany it.
But I disagree with people who say don't bother to use the word "love" because you are unsure of it...there are people for whom the words are very important, and since what he feels has all the markers of love, he should identify it that way, both to himself and to her. Yes, it does give her a bit of "power" in his life, but he also has power in her life, and by withholding a word that he senses she would like to hear (and which he suspects himself that he may feel, or else he wouldn't have written in asking for clarification), he is ultimately going to hurt her.
I think Dan answered a question a few weeks back from a woman whose boyfriend wouldn't say I love you (he did other asshole things, too), and he told her that she was being mistreated. People expect some sort of verbal expression in their intimate relationships, and withholding the word until you feel you have the world's best definition and understanding is just going to hurt your partner.
I agree with what most everyone has said...tell her you love her. If she has been with you this long, she knows you're not the emotional-gusher type, so she won't expect lots of flowery language to accompany it.
But I disagree with people who say don't bother to use the word "love" because you are unsure of it...there are people for whom the words are very important, and since what he feels has all the markers of love, he should identify it that way, both to himself and to her. Yes, it does give her a bit of "power" in his life, but he also has power in her life, and by withholding a word that he senses she would like to hear (and which he suspects himself that he may feel, or else he wouldn't have written in asking for clarification), he is ultimately going to hurt her.
I think Dan answered a question a few weeks back from a woman whose boyfriend wouldn't say I love you (he did other asshole things, too), and he told her that she was being mistreated. People expect some sort of verbal expression in their intimate relationships, and withholding the word until you feel you have the world's best definition and understanding is just going to hurt your partner.
45
I felt this way about my partner of 18 years. I "knew" what love was, and I didn't have it for him. Took me three years to finally say the L word, because I just didn't feel it. But he showed me what love was, and it grew on and in me with time. Now I wonder if I really did know what love was before him.
But there never were fireworks or that desperate, need to be with him feelings. Just a sense of peace, companionship, support...on and on. NIA is damaged goods, as he freely admits. I hope he can trust in Dan's advice, take it easy on himself, and just go with things. He'll find that life with her will begin feeling as comfortable as a good bathrobe or slippers- just perfect.
Good luck to you, NIA.
But there never were fireworks or that desperate, need to be with him feelings. Just a sense of peace, companionship, support...on and on. NIA is damaged goods, as he freely admits. I hope he can trust in Dan's advice, take it easy on himself, and just go with things. He'll find that life with her will begin feeling as comfortable as a good bathrobe or slippers- just perfect.
Good luck to you, NIA.
46
I think NIA's big problem is that he's defining "love" as an adolescent would: in a fundamentally self-involved manner. Not that this is his fault: songs, poetry, movies... our entire fucking society pretty much does the same thing, going on and on about how much "I need you" or how "I ache without you." But real love-- *mature* love-- isn't measured by how much you need from the other person, but by how much you're willing to give the other person.
For instance, (the impersonal) you may love a friend, and so you're willing to crawl out of bed and pick him up from the airport at 3am. You may love your children, so you spend time, money, and stress making sure they become the best people that they can be. You may love your spouse, and so you'll take up a caregiver role if she gets really sick. And if you love someone enough, you're willing to give up organs, years, or even your life to ensure their well-being.
Love isn't measured by need. Love is measured by sacrifice.
For instance, (the impersonal) you may love a friend, and so you're willing to crawl out of bed and pick him up from the airport at 3am. You may love your children, so you spend time, money, and stress making sure they become the best people that they can be. You may love your spouse, and so you'll take up a caregiver role if she gets really sick. And if you love someone enough, you're willing to give up organs, years, or even your life to ensure their well-being.
Love isn't measured by need. Love is measured by sacrifice.
48
Agree with what Dan & others have said. Also, the typical definitions of "love" as "I can't live without you," unbearable joy & anguish, etc., are often drawn from situations where the love is unrequited or the person isn't sure of his/her feelings being returned. The stereotype of first love is like that; there's a lot of drama, and a lot of uncertainty about whether the loved one will be in your life for very long. It's a lot easier to feel those turbulent feelings under such circumstances. By contrast the letter writer seems like he has a pretty stable relationship and his confident of his girlfriend's feelings for him. That makes it a lot less likely that he'd dwell on stuff like "my life would be over if you went away!" And that's a good thing -- it's a sign of a mature, stable relationship.
49
Maybe the guy has a personality disorder and really doesn't know how to love people. Narcissism and Sociopathy both set in at an early age, often growing out of difficult/loveless childhoods, and are characterized by an inability to feel empathy. It's possible. Those kinds of people tend to destroy the lives of those who love them and not care about it.
Or maybe I'm just an ass for thinking such things. If he's in therapy, he's probably not actually either of those.
Or maybe I'm just an ass for thinking such things. If he's in therapy, he's probably not actually either of those.
50
@38 - The one thing I'm sure of (especially after reading this thread) is that love is different things to different people. For one thing, I didn't identify at all with the example that @40 gave -- my husband and I definitely would have taken separate seats, but our best friends are a couple who definitely would have sat together.
I like the quotes I gave @12 because I identify with them, because they pretty much describe my exact feelings for and experiences with my husband. But, someone else may not have had that experience at all. There are probably people out there who don't feel that distinction between being "in love" and "love" -- maybe it truly is possible to be perpetually "in love" with all the fireworks and drama. The letter writer seems like maybe he hasn't experienced the "in love" part, but feels the "love" part. Those distinctions are meaningless, though, unless they have meaning for you.
So, don't feel like you're missing something because you haven't experienced the "love" part, and the letter writer shouldn't feel like he's missing something because he hasn't experienced the "in love" part. There is no universal experience.
I like the quotes I gave @12 because I identify with them, because they pretty much describe my exact feelings for and experiences with my husband. But, someone else may not have had that experience at all. There are probably people out there who don't feel that distinction between being "in love" and "love" -- maybe it truly is possible to be perpetually "in love" with all the fireworks and drama. The letter writer seems like maybe he hasn't experienced the "in love" part, but feels the "love" part. Those distinctions are meaningless, though, unless they have meaning for you.
So, don't feel like you're missing something because you haven't experienced the "love" part, and the letter writer shouldn't feel like he's missing something because he hasn't experienced the "in love" part. There is no universal experience.
51
@44 Most people like NIA feel emotions the same as other people. It's the expression of emotion that eludes them. I can analyze to death why certain things that thrill me to my toes aren't important or worthy of my time. My upbringing was dysfunctional to put it mildly & I spent years convincing myself I didn't need other people. A huge part of my problem is that I'd be very put out if I lost my independence - it's the only thing I have that I can count on.
No one wants to hear 'sure, I can live without you'. But we can & do live without a lot of things. Dan's spot on that love is a matter of will. Most of what we do is a matter of will - I'm finally happy because I decided I didn't want to be miserable anymore. I think it's lovely that NIA could live without his girlfriend but he doesn't want to. He should definitely tell her he loves her even if he doesn't quite believe it just yet.
No one wants to hear 'sure, I can live without you'. But we can & do live without a lot of things. Dan's spot on that love is a matter of will. Most of what we do is a matter of will - I'm finally happy because I decided I didn't want to be miserable anymore. I think it's lovely that NIA could live without his girlfriend but he doesn't want to. He should definitely tell her he loves her even if he doesn't quite believe it just yet.
52
@10 (Packeteer) - I was not expecting that, and it was perfect. You rock.
Seriously, though. Good advice from Dan. If NIA still feels uncertain, though, he could try simply telling her "I'm not certain I know what love is, but if I've ever felt it for anyone, it's you".
Seriously, though. Good advice from Dan. If NIA still feels uncertain, though, he could try simply telling her "I'm not certain I know what love is, but if I've ever felt it for anyone, it's you".
53
Love isn't about not being able to live without somebody. That is called being dependant on somebody. (And yes, we often depend on the people we love as they become more and more a part of our lives, but that fealing of dependance is not the same as the feeling of love.)
Love is a feeling of caring about what happens the other person. It is a desire for the other person's happiness. When they hurt, you feel hurt, even if it's for a reason that normally wouldn't affect you.
The feeling of loving another person is often linked to the feeling of being loved. Often times when you feel like you are deeply loved, it is easier to be loving in a relationship. Sometimes when somebody habitually has trouble feeling love for others, they usually don't feel loved by others. There might be many people who love and care for them, but they don't *feel* loved. Maybe there's something in them that doesn't want to feel loved? Maybe they don't want to need somebody that much? I may be off base, but it's something to explore.
Love is a feeling of caring about what happens the other person. It is a desire for the other person's happiness. When they hurt, you feel hurt, even if it's for a reason that normally wouldn't affect you.
The feeling of loving another person is often linked to the feeling of being loved. Often times when you feel like you are deeply loved, it is easier to be loving in a relationship. Sometimes when somebody habitually has trouble feeling love for others, they usually don't feel loved by others. There might be many people who love and care for them, but they don't *feel* loved. Maybe there's something in them that doesn't want to feel loved? Maybe they don't want to need somebody that much? I may be off base, but it's something to explore.
54
I've been in love, and I've been in 'dependence' (can't live without them), and believe me, the former is a whole lot sexier. "Can't live without them" is a living hell; it spurns freedom of choice. "Can't live without them" is an arranged marriage where angry relatives will stone you for straying. "Can't live without them" is depression, and suicide, and violence, and manipulation.
Don't go there.
Only when it's a choice, and not a need, are you in 'love'.
Don't go there.
Only when it's a choice, and not a need, are you in 'love'.
55
Perhaps NIA needs to learn to love himself. Corny, clichéd, but you know it's true.
Just off to be sick.
Just off to be sick.
56
You don't need to feel like you can't live without the person you love. I don't know where NIA got that idea.
If you do love right, you should feel more and more attached the person as time goes by, not less. As the years go by, I end up feeling more and more like I "can't live without him" as our finances, families, and routines intertwine.
If you do love right, you should feel more and more attached the person as time goes by, not less. As the years go by, I end up feeling more and more like I "can't live without him" as our finances, families, and routines intertwine.
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