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News & ArtsWednesday, January 13, 2010
Transportation Build the Streetcar on 12th Avenue and Broadway
Posted by Dominic Holden on Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:18 AM
This post was written by Kate Stineback (Community Organizer of Capitol Hill Housing) and Bill Zosel (chair of the 12th Avenue Neighborhood Plan Stewardship Committee).
[Eds — The Stranger has written about the potential streetcar alignments here.]
The Broadway-12th Avenue Couplet poses no threat to potential ridership, nor does it take away service from First Hill, as STB claims. In fact, this alignment between hospitals and a developing neighborhood is the only alignment that maintains service to First Hill while accommodating future development and transit needs.
The “walk shed” argument was the biggest gripe with the Broadway-12th Couplet and it goes like this: By separating the northbound and southbound legs of the streetcar on parallel streets (three blocks apart), walking times become longer for everyone who lives on one side or the other of the alignment.
This may inconvenience some riders on some trips, but it's not a fatal flaw by any means, and here is why: Say it is 2013 and the streetcar is built, you work at Swedish, and you want to go get dim-sum in the ID for lunch. On the Broadway-12th Couplet, you could walk three blocks to 12th through the security-patrolled Seattle University campus and hop on the streetcar heading south to the ID (estimated walking time to 12th Avenue is three to four minutes). STB asserts that this three-to-four minute walk constitutes “significant access issues that could dampen ridership.” This is a bold assumption for one of the fittest cities in America, especially in central neighborhoods that are the most walkable in Seattle. Moreover, you might believe, reading STB, that streetcar couplets don't work and they aren't that common. In fact, the majority of the Portland Streetcar line runs as a couplet, separated by one and two blocks at different points. It isn’t confusing or inconvenient and, when we last rode it with standing room only, it didn’t seem to be driving down ridership.
The STB is right in that one of the key benefits of building a streetcar along for 12th Avenue is its future development potential. However, by basing their argument against 12th simply on potential building heights, STB fails to acknowledge the power that streetcars have to specifically catalyze neighborhood-commercial development in the future; the kind of development that is supposed to be the backbone of our Seattle urban villages. 12th Avenue is currently lined by underused buildings, parking lots, and vacant lots. (A study on the Portland Streetcar found that development nearly doubled in the blocks slosest tot he streetcar line (.pdf)) In contrast, hospital and office development will inevitably continue to develop on First Hill without a streetcar.
More to the point, the First Hill hospital district is a bad location for the street car. Streets such as Boren Avenue are already largely developed with offices, medical facilities, and residential buildings that offer little in terms of vibrant pedestrianism. Without mixed-use development, now or in the future, the result would be a streetcar chugging slowly down some of the most crowded streets on First Hill—streets that are already amply served by buses. In contrast, the Broadway-12th Avenue Couplet includes a corridor that is fertile ground for the type of uses that streetcars are best suited for—residential buildings, retail storefronts, and a burgeoning business district.
More after the jump
In passing over the role of a streetcar route in catalyzing neighborhood development, critics are not just ignoring a reason to build on 12th, they are ignoring observed public policy in Seattle, recognized notably in the promotion and building of the South Lake Union Streetcar. If the point is only to provide the fastest and least expensive route of transportation to the area currently with the greatest density, the answer is most likely a bus route and not a streetcar.
STB asserts that existing demand should drive the alignment selection of the First Hill Streetcar. However, this must be balanced with future demand. As a city-shaping tool, streetcars have the unique ability to guide development in a corridor in addition to moving people.
Also, the assertion that the Couplet does not serve the redeveloping Yesler Terrace community is a canard. The Broadway leg of the Couplet heads north, right through the heart of Yesler Terrace and the southbound leg on 12th borders the southern edge of it, basically bounding it on two sides. In fact, Yesler Terrace residents have recently stated that they would like more shopping and retail development to take place on 12th, and the streetcar is exactly the tool to make this happen. While STB argues that First Hill has more existing demand, it misses the point entirely that we are planning for future demand and development. Moreover, this existing demand already has numerous bus connections running directly downtown and directly to the hospitals, many of which will always be faster than a streetcar connection. In this context, the Broadway-12th Couplet is the most forward thinking alignment being considered.
Among the arguments by advocates for a First Hill streetcar, we always seem to come back to the loss of the First Hill light-rail Station. While a promise was certainly made years ago, there seems to be collective amnesia that the former location of this station was at the nexus of three urban villages, and not at Virginia Mason’s doorstep.
The lost Link station was to have served residents, employees, and shoppers of First Hill, Pike/Pine and the 12th Avenue urban village, not just the three big hospitals on First Hill, which is why the Broadway-12th Avenue Couplet absolutely makes the most sense from a planning and practical standpoint.
1
the majority of the Portland Streetcar line runs as a couplet, separated by one and two blocks at different points
The distance between the two streetcar lines in Portland is usually about 250 feet. The distance from Broadway to 12th is closer to 1000 feet.
the First Hill hospital district is a bad location for the street car
Sound Transit originally identified First Hill as a location for a Link stop. They cut the station to save costs, and instead chose to build a streetcar to First Hill because they didn't get the Link station they were originally promised. Is First Hill going to lose out on transit a second time?
The distance between the two streetcar lines in Portland is usually about 250 feet. The distance from Broadway to 12th is closer to 1000 feet.
the First Hill hospital district is a bad location for the street car
Sound Transit originally identified First Hill as a location for a Link stop. They cut the station to save costs, and instead chose to build a streetcar to First Hill because they didn't get the Link station they were originally promised. Is First Hill going to lose out on transit a second time?
2
Not all walk sheds are created equal.
A walk through the SU campus is deadly dull and boring. It is a HUGE deterrent to walking. Ideally, walk sheds should run through commercial districts. City walking isn't about covering ground; it's about mental and emotional stimulation, which can only be provided by the public marketplace -- of goods, services and ideas. SU is a campus, and thus is as exciting to walk through as a business park in the suburbs.
Your "vibrant pedestrianism" argument works on 12th but not on Broadway down that far, and is completely nullified by your "SU ramble". Boren is where the people are. I'm a little confused, actually, because you appear to be arguing AGAINST putting the line on streets that have stuff on them.
A walk through the SU campus is deadly dull and boring. It is a HUGE deterrent to walking. Ideally, walk sheds should run through commercial districts. City walking isn't about covering ground; it's about mental and emotional stimulation, which can only be provided by the public marketplace -- of goods, services and ideas. SU is a campus, and thus is as exciting to walk through as a business park in the suburbs.
Your "vibrant pedestrianism" argument works on 12th but not on Broadway down that far, and is completely nullified by your "SU ramble". Boren is where the people are. I'm a little confused, actually, because you appear to be arguing AGAINST putting the line on streets that have stuff on them.
3
can someone explain the rationale behind the section of route that goes along the east side of cal anderson park on 11th before cutting over down 12th? I don't understand it - why not just go down 12th the entire way?
4
I want to reiterate what Q*bert is saying here.
Separating the two directions of the streetcar makes it much, much less usable, as Adam Parast (a transportation engineer) explained on Seattle Transit Blog, here: http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/09…
This alignment would make the southern direction of the streetcar (the commute home for all those hospital users) unusable for most of the jobs on First Hill.
The most dangerous part here is simple. Building the streetcar this way will make it fail - and it will make future streetcar votes fail. Please stop pushing for a poor design that will screw over our city.
Separating the two directions of the streetcar makes it much, much less usable, as Adam Parast (a transportation engineer) explained on Seattle Transit Blog, here: http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/09…
This alignment would make the southern direction of the streetcar (the commute home for all those hospital users) unusable for most of the jobs on First Hill.
The most dangerous part here is simple. Building the streetcar this way will make it fail - and it will make future streetcar votes fail. Please stop pushing for a poor design that will screw over our city.
5
Broadway 12th ave couplet makes most sense for the future. sorry fellow first hill residents but we can still get to the cap hill LR station, AND in the future the ID, stadiums, Amtrak, ferry terminals, rainier valley, West Seattle a lot faster than you could before. this will make the ID really pop! Can you imagine a wacky Uwajimaya-sponsored streetcare all animed out?
6
I think the biggest risk for future streetcar votes has already happened. Mayor Gridlock's (whom the STB fawned over) SLUT was premature, very slow and costly. If it was faster, actually went somewhere other than past high end condos (those residents will not use such a system they want their cars) and a chunk of restaurants at the ugly, car-ridden but necessary end of SLU, then i think you'd see more positivity regarding the broadway-only route.
That SLUT was a premature mistake Ben, perhaps it should be taken out of service and the train used on Cap Hill? This line will have more riders on it in a month than the SLUT does in a year.
That SLUT was a premature mistake Ben, perhaps it should be taken out of service and the train used on Cap Hill? This line will have more riders on it in a month than the SLUT does in a year.
7
As someone who works downtown, I would love lunchtime access to the other neighborhoods for better dining options and just a way to get away from the big buildings.
As someone who works downtown, I would love lunchtime access to the other neighborhoods for better dining options and just a way to get away from the big buildings.
8
We're playing catch-up in improving Seattle's currently weak public transportation infrastructure. It makes no sense to build expensive new infrastructure in places where there *might be* demand in the future instead of very high-density places where there *already is* major demand.
9
I can't make up my mind on the couplet. On one hand this will decrease the density of stops, breaking each one in two. This reduces the potential for TOD. On the other hand you're right - if we're just trying to move around hospital commuters, a bus would be a faster and cheaper option.
11
The couplet is an awful idea. Boren or Broadway-only are easily superior, and one of them will hopefully prove the victor.
12
STB came out swinging because 12th Ave proponents have simply not been honest and forthcoming in their advocacy. Proponents want the streetcar at all cost. This post is full of half truths, unsubstantiated claims, and poorly thought out arguments with NO supporting facts at all, something STB made sure to do.
A few points:
- Portland block are much smaller than Seattle blocks, are but the authors already know that they just don't want to say it. In Portland the streetcar is separated by a maximum of ~520 feet while Broadway to 12th is around ~980 feet, almost twice the distance not including the hill.
- Following off the last point there are problems in your logic. The problem with this “12th ave couplet is great because it spurs development on 12th and provides access to the hospitals” argument: you can’t say 1) three blocks isn’t too far to walk and 2) it has to go to 12th ave to drive development.
If three blocks isn’t too far, it doesn’t need to go to 12th. Walk three blocks, no big deal. If three blocks is too far, then the couplet is a bad idea because any destination is always three blocks from the train.
You simply can't have you cake and eat it too.
- Finally it looks like Kate and Bill didn't look at the information that the city released about future development potential. The Broadway or Boren alignments would serve the largest amount of commercial and residential, with 12th Ave coming in last.
I would also like to point out that the 12th Ave proponents obviously have an agenda, STB does not. STB writers live all over the city and few of us own property, unlike 12th ave proponents (Seattle University, Capitol Hill Housing, etc.) Also STB is interested in making this project the best possible transportation and development project possible for SEATTLE, not just one neighborhood at the expense of another.
More...
A few points:
- Portland block are much smaller than Seattle blocks, are but the authors already know that they just don't want to say it. In Portland the streetcar is separated by a maximum of ~520 feet while Broadway to 12th is around ~980 feet, almost twice the distance not including the hill.
- Following off the last point there are problems in your logic. The problem with this “12th ave couplet is great because it spurs development on 12th and provides access to the hospitals” argument: you can’t say 1) three blocks isn’t too far to walk and 2) it has to go to 12th ave to drive development.
If three blocks isn’t too far, it doesn’t need to go to 12th. Walk three blocks, no big deal. If three blocks is too far, then the couplet is a bad idea because any destination is always three blocks from the train.
You simply can't have you cake and eat it too.
- Finally it looks like Kate and Bill didn't look at the information that the city released about future development potential. The Broadway or Boren alignments would serve the largest amount of commercial and residential, with 12th Ave coming in last.
I would also like to point out that the 12th Ave proponents obviously have an agenda, STB does not. STB writers live all over the city and few of us own property, unlike 12th ave proponents (Seattle University, Capitol Hill Housing, etc.) Also STB is interested in making this project the best possible transportation and development project possible for SEATTLE, not just one neighborhood at the expense of another.
13
I like how the writers bemoan "problematic assumptions," and then give an example of a Swedish employee going to the I.D. for lunch. As if this thing is EVER going to be fast or frequent enough to make such a trip during a lunch hour!!
And ebullient kudos to Fnarf for illustrating so brilliantly what Seattle architects, urban designers, and transit planners consistently fail to grasp. (Although it's worth noting that efficiently designed and aesthetically pleasing campuses -- say, Harvard Yard -- do not present a psychological obstacle to through-walking in the way that fortress-like (SU) or willfully circuitous (UW) campuses do.)
Lastly, as Peace Frog said, that 11th-Union-12th thing is just begging to become a conspicuous bottleneck that deters people from using the line.
And ebullient kudos to Fnarf for illustrating so brilliantly what Seattle architects, urban designers, and transit planners consistently fail to grasp. (Although it's worth noting that efficiently designed and aesthetically pleasing campuses -- say, Harvard Yard -- do not present a psychological obstacle to through-walking in the way that fortress-like (SU) or willfully circuitous (UW) campuses do.)
Lastly, as Peace Frog said, that 11th-Union-12th thing is just begging to become a conspicuous bottleneck that deters people from using the line.
15
Oh, I forgot to thank the authors for reminding us again how First Hill is "amply served by buses."
Since THEY have clearly never used these buses, would somebody else like to try explaining how pulling out 3 different schedules for routes that run half-hourly (and many blocks from one another) and attempting clairvoyance about which bus will be the least late, least crowded, and least likely to spend 10 minutes on antiquated wheelchair-lift operations ANY TIME YOU WANT TO GO ANYWHERE is "ample service?"
Since THEY have clearly never used these buses, would somebody else like to try explaining how pulling out 3 different schedules for routes that run half-hourly (and many blocks from one another) and attempting clairvoyance about which bus will be the least late, least crowded, and least likely to spend 10 minutes on antiquated wheelchair-lift operations ANY TIME YOU WANT TO GO ANYWHERE is "ample service?"
16
@13, I worked in Harvard Yard for five years, and I can tell you that after a week or two the thrill wears off. When you're looking for lunch you head to Harvard Square, which is a FANTASTIC place to walk (and has many important lessons to teach Seattle, in places like the post-viaduct waterfront, which will never be heard), not the Yard. The Yard is a trek.
17
Yeah - the 11th-Union-12th thing was the only consistent thing in all four lines illustrated in the last stranger piece about the streetcar. Walking an add'l 1 or 2 blocks over in either direction are not going to break anyone's legs, but that looks like such a clusterfuck with all that parking on the east side of the park, and then what - the streetcar pummels down one of the busiest pedestian blocks on capital hill? It just seems safer and more effeciant to go down 12 the whole way. Plus, that intersection where Union 11/12 and Madison all converge is a disater without the streetcar.
I guess I should have attended one of those community meetings to bring all this up, but obviously there were more contentious issues to deal with...
I guess I should have attended one of those community meetings to bring all this up, but obviously there were more contentious issues to deal with...
18
STB is right - this is a poor design. Broadway should get the streetcar and in exchange one of the current trolley buses should be moved to 12th avenue.
19
Oh, and kudos to Qbert and Ben for being ten times smarter than me. Those diagrams really tell a story. The 3-minute ones especially; too often talking about transit (or anything else) in this city devolves into a moralizing discussion of what people OUGHT to do (walk a long ways to transit) instead of what they WILL do (not).
The old truism about Seattle is that its shape makes N-S travel intensely difficult, but the modern truth is, E-W is almost impossible. I'd like to see them utilize the rare diagonal corridors for the purpose for which they were intended. Boren wasn't even cut all the way through until the 1950s; but Madison was a streetcar line in the 1870s, maybe earlier. There's a good case for a line up 12th -- a street that could use the impetus -- but Boren makes more sense to more people. Do 12th later. I was originally envisioning something like a big loop -- bigger than this one -- but the transit blog has convinced me otherwise.
The old truism about Seattle is that its shape makes N-S travel intensely difficult, but the modern truth is, E-W is almost impossible. I'd like to see them utilize the rare diagonal corridors for the purpose for which they were intended. Boren wasn't even cut all the way through until the 1950s; but Madison was a streetcar line in the 1870s, maybe earlier. There's a good case for a line up 12th -- a street that could use the impetus -- but Boren makes more sense to more people. Do 12th later. I was originally envisioning something like a big loop -- bigger than this one -- but the transit blog has convinced me otherwise.
20
1. if you are at swedish and want to get dim sum in the stereotypically stereotyped ID, for lunch, how long would it take to walk?
is this street car going to be faster than walking?
2. same assumption, but you walk down to the light rail line at 3d ave, and jump on light rail, is this faster than waiting on the street car and taking that?
3. if you can go from John to ID via light rail, isn't it redundant to pay millions more for a streetcar connecting John to ID with yet another set of rails when there are vast neighborhoods in Seattle with no light rail and no street cars at all?
4. the originalproblem was connecting first hill to light rail, why not just throw continuous shuttle busses on the streets to do that? the writer above bemoaning long headways has a point....
5. can't we just run a few buses along this couplet route and paint the word "Magic StreetCar -- Pretend You are in Amsterdam!" on them and save the $50 million a mile for the tracks?
is this street car going to be faster than walking?
2. same assumption, but you walk down to the light rail line at 3d ave, and jump on light rail, is this faster than waiting on the street car and taking that?
3. if you can go from John to ID via light rail, isn't it redundant to pay millions more for a streetcar connecting John to ID with yet another set of rails when there are vast neighborhoods in Seattle with no light rail and no street cars at all?
4. the originalproblem was connecting first hill to light rail, why not just throw continuous shuttle busses on the streets to do that? the writer above bemoaning long headways has a point....
5. can't we just run a few buses along this couplet route and paint the word "Magic StreetCar -- Pretend You are in Amsterdam!" on them and save the $50 million a mile for the tracks?
21
Oh and STB never said anything about being at Virginia Mason's doorstep, but The Stranger said that in the post you linked too.
"First Hill neighborhood thought it was getting something it desperately wanted: a subterranean light-rail station, right beneath the Swedish and Virginia Mason medical centers"
"First Hill neighborhood thought it was getting something it desperately wanted: a subterranean light-rail station, right beneath the Swedish and Virginia Mason medical centers"
22
12th rules.
The city you have today will NOT be the city you see in the future - even that of 15 years from now.
(as he remembers the piss-filled alleyways of downtown and the constant dumpster fires that was Seattle)
The city you have today will NOT be the city you see in the future - even that of 15 years from now.
(as he remembers the piss-filled alleyways of downtown and the constant dumpster fires that was Seattle)
23
Fnarf @ 16: You're mostly correct. The point I was making about Harvard Yard is that, in addition to being serene and attractive, it is logically laid out and crisscrossed with dozens of paths. As a result, the walk feels pleasant BUT ALSO EFFICIENT AND DIRECT, providing a sense of making progress and an anticipation of the moment when you will be spit out at the T stop or in the densely commercial Square.
Fnarf @ 19: When the walk-sheds improve and the transit is fast and frequent, people will walk further to it, and they will not need to be encouraged or forced.
Fnarf @ 19: When the walk-sheds improve and the transit is fast and frequent, people will walk further to it, and they will not need to be encouraged or forced.
26
#18
You are the winner. Simple direct and can do.
At a future date, replace the bus with STREETCAR.
I am, Rodger, work at Group Health
You are the winner. Simple direct and can do.
At a future date, replace the bus with STREETCAR.
I am, Rodger, work at Group Health
27
Add me to the list of people who agree with the Seattle Transit Blog on this. Boren or Broadway-only are the way to go.
28
Out of respect for the hard work and sincere thinking that went into the plan, the opposing post above, and the comments above, I stifled a yawn just now.
30
@12 "STB is interested in making this project the best possible transportation and development project possible for SEATTLE, not just one neighborhood at the expense of another."
I agree and it's worth repeating, those currently arguing for the 12th alignment are doing so in the interest of their neighborhood. They have little incentive to analyze the alignment from a regional perspective.
I agree and it's worth repeating, those currently arguing for the 12th alignment are doing so in the interest of their neighborhood. They have little incentive to analyze the alignment from a regional perspective.
31
@12 I wonder how true it is to say that STB does not have an "agenda".SDOT is at the beginning of a public process to evaluate the alternative routes. Does the impartial party assume that there's nothing of significance to be learned from that process and therefore it's possible to firmly state now which alternative is the best and why?
32
@25 - cop cars don't like to wait for streetcars to get out of the way. Political decision, as the turn in a narrow area overlays two entrances.
@29 - I can't help it you didn't do the music scene back then Fnarf. Man those alleys reeked. We used to joke that the only reason the mattresses in the dumpsters didn't burn was they'd been peed on too long. Oh, and no, you won't find that in police statistics cause people just did it.
@29 - I can't help it you didn't do the music scene back then Fnarf. Man those alleys reeked. We used to joke that the only reason the mattresses in the dumpsters didn't burn was they'd been peed on too long. Oh, and no, you won't find that in police statistics cause people just did it.
33
@31 There is a difference between having an agenda and have an opinion. Agendas cause one to settle on one solution before looking at facts, opinions are (or should be) based on facts without a preconceived solution. I write for STB and I think most of us haven't decided if Boren or Broadway is best (leaning towards Broadway) but we certainly don't think 12th Ave is the correct solution.
34
@31 - I agree with you, STB certainly has an agenda, but they are more forthcoming about it - namely that they want what's best for mass transit. However, blogs shouldn't decide the route. Like you say SDOT is working on it, and while the public process is important to keep people informed, ultimately there's a lot of professionals with both SDOT and their consultants that will hopefully provide analysis far more rigorous than any blog can provide.
Some nice analysis is shown on SDOT's streetcar webpage under "Density + Capacity with Potential Stop Locations"
http://seattlestreetcar.org/firsthill.as…
Some nice analysis is shown on SDOT's streetcar webpage under "Density + Capacity with Potential Stop Locations"
http://seattlestreetcar.org/firsthill.as…
35
please answer the most basic question.
if you are at swedish and want dim sum in ID...how long would it take to walk over eastward to the southbound streetcar, wait for it, ride it south, then go back west the same distance you went east, go thru traffic and stoplights, wait for others to board and get off, and then get to ID ?
would it not be faster to just walk there? A nice walk, mainly downhill, I might add.
Or walk straight downhill to light rail on 3d then hop on that to ID.
What are these travel times ?
in fact is not this street car as slow as walking -- just like SLUT?
if you are at swedish and want dim sum in ID...how long would it take to walk over eastward to the southbound streetcar, wait for it, ride it south, then go back west the same distance you went east, go thru traffic and stoplights, wait for others to board and get off, and then get to ID ?
would it not be faster to just walk there? A nice walk, mainly downhill, I might add.
Or walk straight downhill to light rail on 3d then hop on that to ID.
What are these travel times ?
in fact is not this street car as slow as walking -- just like SLUT?
36
@34 In that way yes we at STB have an agenda. It is a transit blog after all. While we at STB have an opinion, that absolutely doesn't meant that normal public outreach or studies should be conducted. We aren't "the decided" in anyway.
Everyone at STB writes because we want to, and because of that we certainly can't compete with studies done by consultants or SDOT, however I will note that Oran Viriyincy and myself (Adam Parast) have a masters in transportation engineering from the UW and I have work for WSDOT and a consultant doing work just like this. If SDOT paid me for my time I could do all the same analysis that they are doing.
Everyone at STB writes because we want to, and because of that we certainly can't compete with studies done by consultants or SDOT, however I will note that Oran Viriyincy and myself (Adam Parast) have a masters in transportation engineering from the UW and I have work for WSDOT and a consultant doing work just like this. If SDOT paid me for my time I could do all the same analysis that they are doing.
37
@32The notion of you "doing the music scene" here in Seattle or anywhere else is utterly comical. Going to a bar once in 1990 doesn't make you a hip daddy-o, Will. But, hey, just for the record, how many Cheaters shows did you go to?
38
Kate Stineback and Bill Zosel, be honest with us, be honest with yourselves. Have you ever actually ridden the Portland streetcar? Do you seriously believe there is any parallel between the block that separates the two directions of the Portland streetcar and the hike between Broadway and 12th?
Either you're both fooling yourselves or you're trying to fool the rest of us. Regular citizens who have lives don't have the time and attention span to sift through which arguments are disingenuous and which aren't--especially when it comes to complicated matters like transit planning. When you put out BS like that, you pollute the public discourse.
Kudos to Seattle Transit Blog for the great takedown of the 12th Ave. couplet proposal.
Either you're both fooling yourselves or you're trying to fool the rest of us. Regular citizens who have lives don't have the time and attention span to sift through which arguments are disingenuous and which aren't--especially when it comes to complicated matters like transit planning. When you put out BS like that, you pollute the public discourse.
Kudos to Seattle Transit Blog for the great takedown of the 12th Ave. couplet proposal.
39
Here's the statement though that really angered me. "This [the idea that the walk would be a ridership-killing burden] is a bold assumption for one of the fittest cities in America,..." Yeah, let them eat cake.
I can't wait to see the Bellevue City Council and Kemper Freeman pick up that "fittest cities" line in defense of their desire to smother downtown Bellevue light rail by putting the station right next to the 405 freeway. "You transit riders are able-bodied persons. You can't walk those blocks to the Bellevue downtown core?"
I'm as fit as anybody, but I value my time and convenience too, and between the extra hike and the wait for streetcar, it adds up.
I can't wait to see the Bellevue City Council and Kemper Freeman pick up that "fittest cities" line in defense of their desire to smother downtown Bellevue light rail by putting the station right next to the 405 freeway. "You transit riders are able-bodied persons. You can't walk those blocks to the Bellevue downtown core?"
I'm as fit as anybody, but I value my time and convenience too, and between the extra hike and the wait for streetcar, it adds up.
40
#4, the walkshed maps don't make any sense to me. On the 12th Ave line, for example, between any two parallel stops, there is only a small section that is marked 3 minutes, however ANY point between those two stops should have an identical walk time. If lines were on 11th Ave and 15th Ave, coming from 12th Ave is 1+3, from 13th Ave is 2+2, from 14th Ave is 3+1.
Also, if the lines are on 11th and 13th Ave, and you live on 10th Ave, that's 4 blocks round trip. If they move both lines to 12th, it's still 4 blocks.
I don't get what the difference is. Is it factoring in wait time at crosswalks and things like that?
Also, if the lines are on 11th and 13th Ave, and you live on 10th Ave, that's 4 blocks round trip. If they move both lines to 12th, it's still 4 blocks.
I don't get what the difference is. Is it factoring in wait time at crosswalks and things like that?
41
Great argument by bgtothen @12. See "have your cake and eat it too."
d.p. @15: Oh, I forgot to thank the authors for reminding us again how First Hill is "amply served by buses."
"Amply served by buses" is one of those classic truisms that transit foes haul out again and again. And I always think, "Wouldn't it be something to see those same people actually try to ride the same buses they so lavishly praise?"
Nice job recycling the anti-transit rhetoric, Kate and Bill. And hey, maybe your "fittest cities in America" phrase will catch on and get added to the anti-transit lexicon.
d.p. @15: Oh, I forgot to thank the authors for reminding us again how First Hill is "amply served by buses."
"Amply served by buses" is one of those classic truisms that transit foes haul out again and again. And I always think, "Wouldn't it be something to see those same people actually try to ride the same buses they so lavishly praise?"
Nice job recycling the anti-transit rhetoric, Kate and Bill. And hey, maybe your "fittest cities in America" phrase will catch on and get added to the anti-transit lexicon.
42
@37 - none. I was into heavier stuff back then. But then, BTO did my school dance in junior high.
43
@40, it looks like the three shadings represent areas within 3, 5, and 7-minute walks of BOTH stations, presuming that the perceived hassle of the walk to/from the station on both legs of a round-trip journey will have some effect on usage.
44
I don't really understand the vitriol from Cressona and others towards Kate and Bill's opinion. Disagree and poke holes, fine, but assigning them evil motives is juvenile.
Personally I find the STB arguments about the 12th couplet a bit overblown. If the streetcar was operating in a transit-free environment I could buy the walkshed arguments. But First Hill is already well served by frequent bus service. Having worked on First Hill I can attest that bus transit is already well used.
Personally I find the STB arguments about the 12th couplet a bit overblown. If the streetcar was operating in a transit-free environment I could buy the walkshed arguments. But First Hill is already well served by frequent bus service. Having worked on First Hill I can attest that bus transit is already well used.
45
@44: First Hill bus transit is indeed well-used... but sucks horribly!
The Bush Administration's DOT changed the formula for determining which projects get "recommended" for federal funding, such that the vast majority of riders need to be "new" riders to earn such a status, especially on an expensive project/segment. Basically, "let's punish people who already use piss-poor transit by guaranteeing they will NEVER SEE REAL IMPROVEMENTS in service!"
This is why the First Hill Link Station truly got cut (expensive to build + too few "new" riders risking the project's approval). And it is exactly the argument you're parroting.
The Bush Administration's DOT changed the formula for determining which projects get "recommended" for federal funding, such that the vast majority of riders need to be "new" riders to earn such a status, especially on an expensive project/segment. Basically, "let's punish people who already use piss-poor transit by guaranteeing they will NEVER SEE REAL IMPROVEMENTS in service!"
This is why the First Hill Link Station truly got cut (expensive to build + too few "new" riders risking the project's approval). And it is exactly the argument you're parroting.
47
Just a note - Publicola transit expert Erica Barnett just bitch slapped the Slog on this topic over there. Is this the beginning of the Slog/Publicola war I've been waiting for for MONTHS!?!
48
westside @44: I don't really understand the vitriol from Cressona and others towards Kate and Bill's opinion. Disagree and poke holes, fine, but assigning them evil motives is juvenile.
I don't believe Kate and Bill's motives are in any way evil. I don't really care about their motives. I'm just disgusted that they come across as just another shallow, narrow-minded, self-centered special interest group that is all too happy to resort to disingenuous, heavy-handed arguments that lack all perspective and respect for anyone else's interests.
It's hard to have any constructive discussion of complicated issues when there's a whole layer of BS coming from one side that you have to take time to wash away.
In some respects maybe I'm just so upset because they're just so, well, dumb.
In fact, indeed!
I don't believe Kate and Bill's motives are in any way evil. I don't really care about their motives. I'm just disgusted that they come across as just another shallow, narrow-minded, self-centered special interest group that is all too happy to resort to disingenuous, heavy-handed arguments that lack all perspective and respect for anyone else's interests.
It's hard to have any constructive discussion of complicated issues when there's a whole layer of BS coming from one side that you have to take time to wash away.
In some respects maybe I'm just so upset because they're just so, well, dumb.
In fact, this alignment between hospitals and a developing neighborhood is the only alignment that maintains service to First Hill while accommodating future development and transit needs.
In fact, indeed!
49
Someone should tell Metro that couplets don't work. Nearly every bus route has a couplet at some point.
To me a three-block couplet has the same problem as a one-block couplet: the way back home is invisible from your destination. ("This is where I got off, where the hell do I get back on?") But then I get lost very easily. I'd likely just ride the wrong way and wait for it to loop back.
To me a three-block couplet has the same problem as a one-block couplet: the way back home is invisible from your destination. ("This is where I got off, where the hell do I get back on?") But then I get lost very easily. I'd likely just ride the wrong way and wait for it to loop back.
50
I'll tell you what else there is about Kate Stineback and Bill Zosel arguments about reminds me so much of classic anti-transit arguments--besides the trusty "already well-served by buses" mantra.
With the endless light rail and monorail campaigns, the foes could point to any single destination that might be served by a station and, if it had a lot of density and development, say, "Well, this location doesn't need rail. It is already highly developed." And if it had little density and development, they could point to it and say, "Well, this doesn't merit rail. It doesn't have enough density."
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And damn any literature or precedent or experience about what places make good station locations and what places don't. There's always a clever, little parlor-debate trick to counter that.
So of course, for Kate and Bill, the overriding criterion of convenience is "accommodating future development." Because, you know, that's why Sound Transit decided to put the First Hill streetcar on Prop. 1. And "the only alignment" that accommodates future development, of course, is theirs. Wasn't that easy?
With the endless light rail and monorail campaigns, the foes could point to any single destination that might be served by a station and, if it had a lot of density and development, say, "Well, this location doesn't need rail. It is already highly developed." And if it had little density and development, they could point to it and say, "Well, this doesn't merit rail. It doesn't have enough density."
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And damn any literature or precedent or experience about what places make good station locations and what places don't. There's always a clever, little parlor-debate trick to counter that.
So of course, for Kate and Bill, the overriding criterion of convenience is "accommodating future development." Because, you know, that's why Sound Transit decided to put the First Hill streetcar on Prop. 1. And "the only alignment" that accommodates future development, of course, is theirs. Wasn't that easy?
51
The exact same bus routes that "amply serve" First Hill also serve 12th. It is impossible to claim that First Hill is amply served by transit while at the same time claiming that 12th needs improved transit. No matter how much development occurs on 12th it will still have a just a fraction of the jobs and residences that First Hill has, not to mention the number of people who visit First Hill of doctor appointments. First Hill will always have a travel demand that far outstrips 12th Avenue. Build the streetcar to serve First Hill and if people on 12th want to use it they can walk up the hill through the SU campus.
52
12th Ave between Yesler and Cherry is a dead zone - empty lots, a scant few one-story buildings with mystery businesses, and almost no dense housing within blocks. It is also the location of many recent muggings. Putting a streetcar there at this time means fewer riders, and is a safety risk for those that do use it during certain times of the day.
Howsabout this: put transit where the riders are, and where people will use it. If a straw man from Swedish can walk three blocks to catch the streetcar to the ID for a stereotyped lunch, then a strawman from 12th Ave can walk down to Broadway to catch a streetcar that people will actually use. Putting transit in a dead zone because of some potential future development, when there are thousands of people that can be served by a streetcar RIGHT NOW, is completely ludicrous.
Howsabout this: put transit where the riders are, and where people will use it. If a straw man from Swedish can walk three blocks to catch the streetcar to the ID for a stereotyped lunch, then a strawman from 12th Ave can walk down to Broadway to catch a streetcar that people will actually use. Putting transit in a dead zone because of some potential future development, when there are thousands of people that can be served by a streetcar RIGHT NOW, is completely ludicrous.
53
Frankly. the whole line, regardless of route is dumb. It loops around from one light rail stop to another.
If the point is to get light rail riders to/from First Hill, then a shorter cable car system from downtown would be more effective - and probably a lot cheaper,
What this city needs is streetcars on major north/south and east/west arterials, e.g. Rainier Ave, 45th, Aurora, etc. Linear and direct.
The proposed loopy route from the ID to Cal Anderson via First Hill is a laugh. Everyone's arguing over a turd.
If the point is to get light rail riders to/from First Hill, then a shorter cable car system from downtown would be more effective - and probably a lot cheaper,
What this city needs is streetcars on major north/south and east/west arterials, e.g. Rainier Ave, 45th, Aurora, etc. Linear and direct.
The proposed loopy route from the ID to Cal Anderson via First Hill is a laugh. Everyone's arguing over a turd.
54
The original plan put the main platform station around Boylston and Madison, not at Virginia Mason or Broadway and John. Broadway is a well-traveled street and would have difficulty handling two sets of tracks and several buses b are already routed on Broadway. Broadway must continue to allow room for commercial vehicles. Placing part of the route along 12th is a chance to at least begin to fill the void in mass transit along 12th Avenue, full fill the need for the connection to First Hill, and begin to strengthen a connection between the commercial districts in Capitol Hill and the Central District.
I am having real difficulty in understanding the great flurry of anti-12th Avenue sentiment.
I am having real difficulty in understanding the great flurry of anti-12th Avenue sentiment.
55
I have to agree with Seattle transit blog that the 12th ave couplet is just not pratical for tranist. it would be more like a ride through commercial district than a usable street car route. (note i live on 12th ave and agree we don't have any transit) but it's better to have one good route that serves first hill then a shitty route that doesn't quite serve first hill or 12th ave. seriously!
56
The 12th ave couplet is clearly the best option that benefits the most people and will encourage the right kind of development.
57
So basically we are asked to simultaneously believe:
1) That a streetcar running only on Broadway does not serve 12th very well
and
2) That a streetcar alignment that still made people on 12th walk to Broadway and also made people working or living on First Hill walk to 12th would serve everyone wonderfully!
I have to say I find STB more convincing here.
http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/14…
1) That a streetcar running only on Broadway does not serve 12th very well
and
2) That a streetcar alignment that still made people on 12th walk to Broadway and also made people working or living on First Hill walk to 12th would serve everyone wonderfully!
I have to say I find STB more convincing here.
http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/14…
58
@54 Why the passion against the 12th Av?
B/c alot people care about transit and specifically streetcars and want to ensure that lines continue to be built. The SLUT gets a partial pass with voters b/c people understand that it was test run, partially paid by Paul Allen and his friends, and can be expanded at a later date to Ballard and Fremont (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Str… ).
However put two 'losers' in a row and the odds are that the people of Seattle will be turned off of Streetcars for a LONG time. Yes, maybe the couple isn't a poison pill in and of itself (I personally think it is a horrible idea) and so one day 12th MIGHT develop into a high density neighborhood that puts some traffic on the line, but that is a long LONG way away.
People that car about transit, and not just their personal neighborhood of preference are thus very impassioned in their attacking of the 12th alignment b/c they fear not just that the line itself might be a failure but that failure now will put all further Streetcar projects and extensions at risk.
B/c alot people care about transit and specifically streetcars and want to ensure that lines continue to be built. The SLUT gets a partial pass with voters b/c people understand that it was test run, partially paid by Paul Allen and his friends, and can be expanded at a later date to Ballard and Fremont (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Str… ).
However put two 'losers' in a row and the odds are that the people of Seattle will be turned off of Streetcars for a LONG time. Yes, maybe the couple isn't a poison pill in and of itself (I personally think it is a horrible idea) and so one day 12th MIGHT develop into a high density neighborhood that puts some traffic on the line, but that is a long LONG way away.
People that car about transit, and not just their personal neighborhood of preference are thus very impassioned in their attacking of the 12th alignment b/c they fear not just that the line itself might be a failure but that failure now will put all further Streetcar projects and extensions at risk.
59
Extending the streetcar line to 12th doesn't remove the entire line on Broadway; it simply adds to it and makes the streetcar more accessible for those who live further East (past 12th and up into the residental blocks through 17th). Broadway is a good route but broadway + 12th is better.
Folks are using very strong and charged language to describe what looks to me like a legitimate alternative alignment. I think having a line that serves existing riders and promotes future development is a good balance of priorities. 12th is a growing urban hotspot with great destinations near Madison (Sumptown, Tavern Law, La Spiga, etc) and it has plenty of existing residental communites that the line will serve immediately.
On the other hand, if the streetcar exclusively serves hospitals down Broadway and Boren and the communities along that route, it diminishes the overall usefulness of the line for me.
Folks are using very strong and charged language to describe what looks to me like a legitimate alternative alignment. I think having a line that serves existing riders and promotes future development is a good balance of priorities. 12th is a growing urban hotspot with great destinations near Madison (Sumptown, Tavern Law, La Spiga, etc) and it has plenty of existing residental communites that the line will serve immediately.
On the other hand, if the streetcar exclusively serves hospitals down Broadway and Boren and the communities along that route, it diminishes the overall usefulness of the line for me.
60
@59 I believe you mean 'half serves.' Better to get a good line that gets riders NOW as opposed to bad one now that depends on 'future' developement to build ridership. We should build out known high use routes now, so that voters see Streetcars as a viable model and then turn our focus to more questionable/potential routes. In the mean time, I agree that 12th needs better transit, and that in the future it or the area east of it possibly even it's own streetcar line. But build a half measure now and not only do stand the possibility of souring voters on Streetcars, but you make it harder to get a good two way line for the area in the future.
Rail is a long term investment. This isn't a bus line where if it turns out your gamble failed you can just shift the route. A decision shouldn't be based on what an area 'deserves' or how you 'hope' things will turn out, but on solid, proven ground. Build the First Hill Streetcar on First Hill, where it has KNOWN ridership KNOWN development potential (zoning already in place), and using KNOWN sound methods (two way runnings as opposed to 1000ft couplets).
Rail is a long term investment. This isn't a bus line where if it turns out your gamble failed you can just shift the route. A decision shouldn't be based on what an area 'deserves' or how you 'hope' things will turn out, but on solid, proven ground. Build the First Hill Streetcar on First Hill, where it has KNOWN ridership KNOWN development potential (zoning already in place), and using KNOWN sound methods (two way runnings as opposed to 1000ft couplets).
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