Slog
News & ArtsThursday, January 7, 2010
Homo / Hetero The Children Are Our Future
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:00 PM
A neighbor and friend sent me this email earlier today about the marriage equality debate that her youngest son—Gus, age five—got into at school today:
The kids were discussing whether boys can marry boys and girls can marry girls. The kids were saying that they can't. Gus said, "Boys can marry boys. Dan and Terry are married."
That email reminded me of this Michael Kinsley piece in Time back in 2007...
Kids grow up today with gay friends, gay parents, gay parents of friends and gay friends of parents. If only blacks and whites were as thoroughly mixed together in society as gays and straights are. Kids are also exposed constantly to an entertainment culture in which gays are not merely accepted but in some ways dominant. You rarely see a reality show without a gay cast member, while Rosie O'Donnell is a coveted free agent and Ellen DeGeneres is America's sweetheart. The notion that gays must be segregated out of the military for the sake of our national security must strike Americans younger than, say, 40 as simply weird, just as we of the previous generation find the rules of racial segregation weird. (O.K., run that by me again: they needed separate drinking fountains because ... why?)
When asked if girls could marry girls, Gus said, "Nope. They can't marry."
1
It's all about exposure.
Let's expose ourselves to all the straight people in this country!
Wait...
Let's expose ourselves to all the straight people in this country!
Wait...
2
my wife used to teach 3 year olds, and a group of them had a similar conversation. The little boy's example of why boys could marry boys was Batman & Robin (this was about 15 years ago)...
3
"Americans younger than, say, 40 as simply weird,"
Amazing that in your plea for acceptance, you exhibit ageism in the same breath.
Hippocrites, all.
"Americans younger than, say, 40 as simply weird,"
Amazing that in your plea for acceptance, you exhibit ageism in the same breath.
Hippocrites, all.
5
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/b…
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/w…
Two great articles on fivethirtyeight about age and politics. Basically as the bigots of all kinds die off the country becomes more free and equal. Remember that when you look at people 70+ you still find HUGE bigotry against blacks, browns, gays, catholics, jews, foreigners, socialists, and people that just plain walk, talk, or dance weird.
Not everyone old is this way but comparatively when it comes to voting the older the demographic the more represented they are. This is why a legislature (one of the most direct ways people effect the laws) will still cater to old customs and ways of living.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/w…
Two great articles on fivethirtyeight about age and politics. Basically as the bigots of all kinds die off the country becomes more free and equal. Remember that when you look at people 70+ you still find HUGE bigotry against blacks, browns, gays, catholics, jews, foreigners, socialists, and people that just plain walk, talk, or dance weird.
Not everyone old is this way but comparatively when it comes to voting the older the demographic the more represented they are. This is why a legislature (one of the most direct ways people effect the laws) will still cater to old customs and ways of living.
6
@2 - In my experience, that is a pretty commonly held belief in little boys. Also, Chewbacca is Han Solo's boyfriend, which, after my 5 year old cousin explained it to me, totally makes sense.
8
#3 you sexy sweet thyang. READ the entire Sentence. The word weird refers NOT to the people, BUT to the NOTION of exclusion from the Military. Oh sweet Gheezuz is it any wonder the fight for equality is all up hill.
"The notion that gays must be segregated out of the military for the sake of our national security must strike Americans younger than, say, 40 as simply weird, just as we of the previous generation find the rules of racial segregation weird.
Oh you were drunk when you typed that #3, oh never mind.
"The notion that gays must be segregated out of the military for the sake of our national security must strike Americans younger than, say, 40 as simply weird, just as we of the previous generation find the rules of racial segregation weird.
Oh you were drunk when you typed that #3, oh never mind.
10
If indoctrination is what those who champion for gay marriage are counting on .....
One thing is to teach whatever one believes in to one's own child, but not to those of others.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
One thing is to teach whatever one believes in to one's own child, but not to those of others.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
11
Nice post in a time when our country seems to be broken! Thanks Dan, your write up put a smile on my face. Gus's parents are raising the right kind of Man and human being. Here's to an inspired 2010! M
12
I believe the straight couples who invite us into their homes, LC, and allow their children to play with our child, allow us to babysit for their children, allow their children to have sleepovers at our house, allow our child to have sleepovers at their houses, allow us to take their children to movies and sometimes on snowboarding trips—basically treat us like any other responsible couple of parents—are teaching their own children, by their example, that they see us as a couple like any other and thereby encouraging their children to do the same.
We're not indoctrinating anyone's children, LC. We're living our lives. Bigots who want to make sure that their kids to grow up to be bigots don't have to invite us to dinner or come over for Christmas Eve or ask us to sit for their kids or give their sons permission to go on overnight snowboarding trips with our son.
And fuck you.
We're not indoctrinating anyone's children, LC. We're living our lives. Bigots who want to make sure that their kids to grow up to be bigots don't have to invite us to dinner or come over for Christmas Eve or ask us to sit for their kids or give their sons permission to go on overnight snowboarding trips with our son.
And fuck you.
14
It really says something when people who are not yet formed by a prejudiced environment don't see anything wrong with 2 boys getting married.
It's obvious that you really have to learn homophobia.
It's obvious that you really have to learn homophobia.
17
Very sweet, Dan.
My children don't know any gay friends or family members that are married, they do know that they have gay friends and family members that live in states that prohibit marriage equality. I never had to tell them that it was unfair, being relatively intelligent they observed the unfairness and think that it sucks. So, I never get the "could" questions, but the "why not" ones.
And, hope remains for the hopelessly entrenched individuals of today. Some will become tomorrows advocates. My own father, who twice voted against marriage equality in CA, woke up and announced that in the interest of equality and compassion he would never vote against equality again. And, apologized for his cruel voting record of the past, for being suckered into believing traditional marriage would be threatened or that his own religious freedom would be trampled on. Hope springs eternal.
My children don't know any gay friends or family members that are married, they do know that they have gay friends and family members that live in states that prohibit marriage equality. I never had to tell them that it was unfair, being relatively intelligent they observed the unfairness and think that it sucks. So, I never get the "could" questions, but the "why not" ones.
And, hope remains for the hopelessly entrenched individuals of today. Some will become tomorrows advocates. My own father, who twice voted against marriage equality in CA, woke up and announced that in the interest of equality and compassion he would never vote against equality again. And, apologized for his cruel voting record of the past, for being suckered into believing traditional marriage would be threatened or that his own religious freedom would be trampled on. Hope springs eternal.
18
To call this indoctrination, loveschild, is a bit caricatured, I think. I, personally, would prefer if you kept your language at a civil level if a conversation about this topic is going to take place. Keep in mind that we are all espousing our beliefs here. As such, none of this can be called "absolute," so we should recognize that.
I think you're misinterpreting what we're saying when we comment about the topic of kids' perceptions of gays and lesbians. We are simply observing a common sociological phenomenon - that exposure breeds acceptance.
Naturally, as a gay man, I would like (and I hope) to be accepted someday, so I believe that exposure to gay and lesbian members of society is important. Obviously, you disagree with that idea. I await your response.
I think you're misinterpreting what we're saying when we comment about the topic of kids' perceptions of gays and lesbians. We are simply observing a common sociological phenomenon - that exposure breeds acceptance.
Naturally, as a gay man, I would like (and I hope) to be accepted someday, so I believe that exposure to gay and lesbian members of society is important. Obviously, you disagree with that idea. I await your response.
19
@3 that is no more ageist than saying that black people have higher rates of sickle cell anemia is racist.
Pointing out the obvious and empirically established fact that age correlates with age does not make one "ageist".
Whenever there is a loss like today in New Jersey, I like seeing things like this to remind me that we have already won, we just have to wait.
Pointing out the obvious and empirically established fact that age correlates with age does not make one "ageist".
Whenever there is a loss like today in New Jersey, I like seeing things like this to remind me that we have already won, we just have to wait.
21
Back in the 80's I was already asking why my mom and her gf couldn't get married. Glad to see that kids today can and do talk about it... hope to see more "yes they can" rather than "why can't they". Eventually, hopefully, there won't be a question, because gay people will someday truly be treated as equal.
22
I'm not so sure Gus is all that tolerant, see there could be an insult in there 'cause said it aloud and perhaps he really meant, "Nope, they cant, MARY".
23
Gus thinks that boys can marry boys because to him DJ's parents' relationship is indistinguishable from that of his own parents—right down to the rings on our fingers. His parents are married, DJ's parents are married.
After all the hand-wringing and wrestling with the question of "to marry or not to marry" that was the central thesis of "The Commitment" (followed by the decision of whether or not to get/wear rings), it is great to hear of an example that underscores the positives that come from DJ's friends knowing that his parents are married. This in addition to all of the other positive aspects that you've mentioned (the stability/peace of mind that a child has knowing that their parents have that additional bond/obligation/legal commitment).
Now, someone just needs to introduce Gus to two "girls" who are married to one another so that he can see that girls do indeed marry girls.
24
Wait-
you're saying that if you brainwash kids from the time hey are toddlers they will accept just about anything?
Like a generation of Germans raised up to invade their neighbors and slaughter the Jews?
Like generations in the Middle East that believe their next door neighbors should be driven into the sea?
Like generations in this country raised to hiss 'nigger' and hate and oppress people because of their skin color?
And a new generation is being brainwashed to accept deviant behavior as normal?
That exposure breeds acceptance?
You mean, like:
"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
as to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with the face,
we first endure,
then pity,
then embrace."
Like that?
you're saying that if you brainwash kids from the time hey are toddlers they will accept just about anything?
Like a generation of Germans raised up to invade their neighbors and slaughter the Jews?
Like generations in the Middle East that believe their next door neighbors should be driven into the sea?
Like generations in this country raised to hiss 'nigger' and hate and oppress people because of their skin color?
And a new generation is being brainwashed to accept deviant behavior as normal?
That exposure breeds acceptance?
You mean, like:
"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
as to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with the face,
we first endure,
then pity,
then embrace."
Like that?
25
The first time I took a puff of a cigarette I hacked and thought my lungs were on fire. Just one puff.
The next time I wretched. But made it for two puffs.
I hated it but all the guys I hung out with thought it was cool so I kept trying.
Soon I could tolerate a whole cigarette.
I embraced smoking with a gusto.
I've smoked three packs a day for 35 years.
I can't believe how I reacted that first puff...
The next time I wretched. But made it for two puffs.
I hated it but all the guys I hung out with thought it was cool so I kept trying.
Soon I could tolerate a whole cigarette.
I embraced smoking with a gusto.
I've smoked three packs a day for 35 years.
I can't believe how I reacted that first puff...
26
@24 That argument is idiotic. You dare to equate genocide and hate with tolerance and acceptance? I hope you get to experience the difference between the two firsthand.
27
"Kids are also exposed constantly to an entertainment culture in which gays are not merely accepted but in some ways dominant. You rarely see a reality show without a gay cast member, while Rosie O'Donnell is a coveted free agent and Ellen DeGeneres is America's sweetheart."
Your Homosexual Agenda hard at work, folks.
Your Homosexual Agenda hard at work, folks.
28
Kids that grow up on compounds in Texas think polygamy is normal and natural. Isn't that wonderful?!
29
@18
No caricature, adults with children can and should be able to teach their values and morals (even those opposite to mine) to their daughters and sons. The problem arises when people use their children to indoctrinate unto others children their beliefs. If dan has friends with children who agree with his lifestyle and they want to teach their children that such behavior is acceptable to them, then fine.
What's not okay in dan's post is the part of the insistence of people like him in using kids to bring such topics into schools, unto the children of others (who may not agree with him) who leave their kids in good faith under the care of what are supposed to be professionals for the sole purpose of academic teachings, whats not okay is having teachers (as some here) indoctrinate such ideologies in the classroom.
That's plain wrong and manipulative, not only are they using minors but a captive audience as well, when their parents are not present there to accept or reject such beliefs. People like me who don't believe in what you do should not have to worry about strangers such as dan or his friends (thru their kids) instructing children like mine with ideas that are diametrically opposed to the values and religious beliefs I'm teaching them. Don't you think that (even if you and I disagree about homosexuality) my husband and I as parents should have the right to instruct our children in our values without others abusing our trust and teaching our kids contrary thoughts? Or should dan's ideology trump that also ?
This is why people rightly don't believe you when you say you won't impose in all social institutions both religious and secular, your ideology if gay marriage becomes the law of the land.
No caricature, adults with children can and should be able to teach their values and morals (even those opposite to mine) to their daughters and sons. The problem arises when people use their children to indoctrinate unto others children their beliefs. If dan has friends with children who agree with his lifestyle and they want to teach their children that such behavior is acceptable to them, then fine.
What's not okay in dan's post is the part of the insistence of people like him in using kids to bring such topics into schools, unto the children of others (who may not agree with him) who leave their kids in good faith under the care of what are supposed to be professionals for the sole purpose of academic teachings, whats not okay is having teachers (as some here) indoctrinate such ideologies in the classroom.
That's plain wrong and manipulative, not only are they using minors but a captive audience as well, when their parents are not present there to accept or reject such beliefs. People like me who don't believe in what you do should not have to worry about strangers such as dan or his friends (thru their kids) instructing children like mine with ideas that are diametrically opposed to the values and religious beliefs I'm teaching them. Don't you think that (even if you and I disagree about homosexuality) my husband and I as parents should have the right to instruct our children in our values without others abusing our trust and teaching our kids contrary thoughts? Or should dan's ideology trump that also ?
This is why people rightly don't believe you when you say you won't impose in all social institutions both religious and secular, your ideology if gay marriage becomes the law of the land.
30
@12 I hope those obscenities (f__k you) are not what you're boasting about teaching to the minors around you, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out you are.
32
Sorry, I pay taxes, I send my kid to school -- his family exists, has to be acknowledged. Pluralism.
And, yeah, fuck you.
And, yeah, fuck you.
33
This sweet little story points up why it is important for society not to legalize and legitimize homosexual marriage.
Because kids CAN be taught/brainwashed to accept pretty much anything as 'normal'.
And they can be fooled by superficial trappings like rings and titles into thinking that two men living together is indistinguishable from a man and woman being married.
If society grants those men the status of 'married' it is also telling those kids that two men living together is indistinguishable from a man and woman being married.
And society has a responsibility to those kids to teach them the truth.
Because kids CAN be taught/brainwashed to accept pretty much anything as 'normal'.
And they can be fooled by superficial trappings like rings and titles into thinking that two men living together is indistinguishable from a man and woman being married.
If society grants those men the status of 'married' it is also telling those kids that two men living together is indistinguishable from a man and woman being married.
And society has a responsibility to those kids to teach them the truth.
34
Loveschild,
You have used those obscenities on SLOG and other derogatory terms.
So do us all a favor next time you're inclined to throw stones, duct tape your own hands and mouth, because your lousy aim is breaking your own glass house.
You have used those obscenities on SLOG and other derogatory terms.
So do us all a favor next time you're inclined to throw stones, duct tape your own hands and mouth, because your lousy aim is breaking your own glass house.
35
That is because girls have cooties, and two girls means double cooties, and that is just gross, Dan.
36
@29 so good, then you would strongly oppose christian kids sharing their faith with their heathen friends or say trying to introduce their friends to the horror that is the Jonas Brothers.
Sorry, but the whole idea of a free society is that people share ideas and encourage others to adopt them. You're just mad because you're losing.
Sorry, but the whole idea of a free society is that people share ideas and encourage others to adopt them. You're just mad because you're losing.
37
LC certainly demonstrates how much energy a person has to expend to keep their own antigay fears alive. And how deeply unattractive the flailing is.
Every minute she spends here is a minute some real person around her is spared having to deal with her coldhearted, twofaced line of crap.
So that's good.
Every minute she spends here is a minute some real person around her is spared having to deal with her coldhearted, twofaced line of crap.
So that's good.
38
32
Just because it 'exists' doesn't mean that elementary school kids have to be brainwashed into accepting it as 'normal'.
If Johnie's mom is a crack whore turning tricks in her bedroom do all the kids in the class have to accept it as normal? She pays taxes...
If Johnie's dad beats the shit out of his mom every weekend do we have to desensitize the kids to black eyes and missing front teeth?
If Johnie has four moms do we assure the kids in class that polygamy is normal? Pluralism and all...
If Johnie's brother is a skinhead with Nazi and white supremacy tattoos do we explain to the kids that "kike" and "nigger" are just words some nice folks use to refer to their neighbors?
It's true, if you expose kids to it they WILL accept it.
That isn't an argument that "it" is desirable, however.
"How dare you compare Love and Tolerance to Hate?" they squeal...
You can put a dollop of whipped cream and a cherry on a pile of dogshit but it doesn't make it a sundae.
Yes, homosexuality is cleverly attractively packages.
It is relentlessly presented to children as cool and hip. MTV! Reality shows! Singers! Movie Stars!
No one tells them that it is a choice that will rob them of the chance to realize all the joy they have the potential to achieve. That it condemns them to a path of biologically deviant behavior. That it will channel the strongest urges and drives biology endows us with into dead end counterfeit paths. That the 'orientation' they have been conned into will lock them in a battle with microbes and viruses and bacteria each and every time they seek to physically express their 'love'.
Just because it 'exists' doesn't mean that elementary school kids have to be brainwashed into accepting it as 'normal'.
If Johnie's mom is a crack whore turning tricks in her bedroom do all the kids in the class have to accept it as normal? She pays taxes...
If Johnie's dad beats the shit out of his mom every weekend do we have to desensitize the kids to black eyes and missing front teeth?
If Johnie has four moms do we assure the kids in class that polygamy is normal? Pluralism and all...
If Johnie's brother is a skinhead with Nazi and white supremacy tattoos do we explain to the kids that "kike" and "nigger" are just words some nice folks use to refer to their neighbors?
It's true, if you expose kids to it they WILL accept it.
That isn't an argument that "it" is desirable, however.
"How dare you compare Love and Tolerance to Hate?" they squeal...
You can put a dollop of whipped cream and a cherry on a pile of dogshit but it doesn't make it a sundae.
Yes, homosexuality is cleverly attractively packages.
It is relentlessly presented to children as cool and hip. MTV! Reality shows! Singers! Movie Stars!
No one tells them that it is a choice that will rob them of the chance to realize all the joy they have the potential to achieve. That it condemns them to a path of biologically deviant behavior. That it will channel the strongest urges and drives biology endows us with into dead end counterfeit paths. That the 'orientation' they have been conned into will lock them in a battle with microbes and viruses and bacteria each and every time they seek to physically express their 'love'.
39
Loveschild, @36 is dead right. I was specifically taught at church that while the adults in school couldn't talk about religion I could. I went to a regular Christian church, not even particularly right wing conservative--and they sent me out to indoctrinate. It is likely that's what your kids are learning in church as well.
Kids are busy learning about the world from the people around them. The views they espouse at school are directly learned from home and they are trying them out and seeing how they work.
If you don't want your children to hear other ideas, you have the right (and perhaps the obligation) to keep them home for schooling. In public school there is a free exchange of ideas among the students, no matter what the adults are doing. Every conversation at recess (which is where most of these interesting debates occur) cannot possibly be monitored.
Also the fact that you continually come here to cause dissent and tell people how horrible they are is way more detrimental to your cause than anything Dan could ever do. Jesus often had harsh things to say about religious leaders, but there isn't a story in the Bible about him going to people who didn't accept him and telling them how stupid or horrible they are.
Kids are busy learning about the world from the people around them. The views they espouse at school are directly learned from home and they are trying them out and seeing how they work.
If you don't want your children to hear other ideas, you have the right (and perhaps the obligation) to keep them home for schooling. In public school there is a free exchange of ideas among the students, no matter what the adults are doing. Every conversation at recess (which is where most of these interesting debates occur) cannot possibly be monitored.
Also the fact that you continually come here to cause dissent and tell people how horrible they are is way more detrimental to your cause than anything Dan could ever do. Jesus often had harsh things to say about religious leaders, but there isn't a story in the Bible about him going to people who didn't accept him and telling them how stupid or horrible they are.
42
@24 That's a very poor comparison, and not just in terms of taste. If you read most scholar's attempts to trace fascist anti-Semitism in Germany, you'll see 1) a century-plus escalation of existing Christian anti-Semitism, starting in the time of the Enlightenment, and 2) a reversal of ethics within a very specific time period of Hitler's rise to power, in which the supreme crime was not murder but disobedience to the German people and state. Simultaneously, anti-Semitism and "the Jewish question" shifted from a context of religion (Jews killed Jesus, the myth of Ahasverus, etc.) to a context of race, from which there wasn't even a pretense of escape through conversion. Of course there were the Hitler youth, but the primary mechanism by which the German people came to silently endorse genocide was not a generational shift; it happened much, much too quickly for that to possibly to be the case.
43
24: Wait-you're saying that if you brainwash kids from the time they are toddlers they will accept just about anything?
Like a generation of Germans raised up to invade their neighbors and slaughter the Jews?
Like generations in the Middle East that believe their next door neighbors should be driven into the sea?
Like generations in this country raised to hiss 'nigger' and hate and oppress people because of their skin color?
And a new generation is being brainwashed to accept deviant behavior as normal? That exposure breeds acceptance?
Yes, if you teach kids something from the time they're young they probably will believe it. That's why it's important to teach them things like understanding of, and appreciation for, the way people are different rather than teach them fear and hatred. In the three examples you mentioned above , fear and hatred were the things being taught. And fear and hatred of gays & lesbians, because they are different, is still being taught, mainly (although not exclusively) by religious conservatives.
All deviant means is differing from the norm. A Muslim in Salt Lake City would be a deviant. So would a Christian in Tehran. People who are left-handed are deviants. So are people with red hair. And people who are autistic. And geniuses.
Remember Oskar Schindler? He was a deviant. While the norm of the German people was to do nothing to help Jewish people, Schindler the deviant saved the lives of more than a thousand Jewish refugees from Poland.
What's so necessary about being normal? There's nothing wrong with being normal, but there's nothing right about it either.
Like a generation of Germans raised up to invade their neighbors and slaughter the Jews?
Like generations in the Middle East that believe their next door neighbors should be driven into the sea?
Like generations in this country raised to hiss 'nigger' and hate and oppress people because of their skin color?
And a new generation is being brainwashed to accept deviant behavior as normal? That exposure breeds acceptance?
Yes, if you teach kids something from the time they're young they probably will believe it. That's why it's important to teach them things like understanding of, and appreciation for, the way people are different rather than teach them fear and hatred. In the three examples you mentioned above , fear and hatred were the things being taught. And fear and hatred of gays & lesbians, because they are different, is still being taught, mainly (although not exclusively) by religious conservatives.
All deviant means is differing from the norm. A Muslim in Salt Lake City would be a deviant. So would a Christian in Tehran. People who are left-handed are deviants. So are people with red hair. And people who are autistic. And geniuses.
Remember Oskar Schindler? He was a deviant. While the norm of the German people was to do nothing to help Jewish people, Schindler the deviant saved the lives of more than a thousand Jewish refugees from Poland.
What's so necessary about being normal? There's nothing wrong with being normal, but there's nothing right about it either.
45
Loveschild. Your comment @30 was the first to make me understand why the vast majority of people on here have very little respect for you. I never disliked you for your opinions, but I suddenly dislike you for your character.
46
Gus is awesome. I've never met his aunt, but the picture I saw of her marrying her wife in San Francisco during that brief shining moment was tear-inducingly sweet.
47
Regarding the phenomenon, Allegedly and Loveschild have it right. Children learn in their early years the foundations of their existance, a sort of open-architecture in place of instincts that has allowed humankind to adapt to all terrestrial environments. And this can work for good or ill.
And this does include indoctrination. The quote by St. Ignatius of Loyola that has become the Jesuit motto is an expression of that indoctrination, Give me the boy until he is seven and I will give you the man. It's the idea that a child will be hard to move from the experiences (including teachings) of his or her roots without something short of an identity crisis. And whether a child is raised memorizing scripture, being educated in communist doctrine, recruited into a paramilitary institution that has designated Jews and Soviets as social enemies or taught equality in a pluralistic liberal urbania, the child is going to absorb that to which he or she is exposed.
This presents one of the difficulties of the intellectual elite; we have some instinct to accept designated authority blind, and it requires that transition of self-identification to develop critical thinking skills, which are inherently necessary in scientific thought and process. Fortunately, as our abilities to market, spin and campaign improve, the sooner children are witness to the falsehoods told by designated authorities e.g. parents, teachers and ministers, and the sooner they realize that these sources of alleged doctrine are not perfect, and not necessarily out for the interests of the child.
Most gays were not indoctrinated by a sex positive sector, but were instead sublimely aware of an inability to conform to an unforgiving hetero-normative culture, hence they were either ostracized, or they sought out like-minded folk with whom to better understand themselves.
However, most Christian denominations are hierarchical and their methods stem directly from the precepts of Ignatius of Loyola and Augustine of Hippo, what is identical to what they imagine as indoctrination and brainwashing, so it would make sense for churchgoer activists to conclude that their failures are due to a competing indoctrination program, and not due to the natural variation of humankind. With this assumption, that the Gay American Syndicate (GAS) exists and corrupts the children of the faithful from without they have justification to both persecute the visible gay communities, and ostracize discovered gays within.
So folks like Allegedly and Loveschild really can't help themselves. They're childhood victims of an indoctrination system so well developed that any thought that is even slightly critical of their burned-in doctrine will activate their fears of eternal Hellfire. More than that, this fear is so palpable to them, they have to post here continuously in hopes to either convert the stray undecided agnostic, or to stab at (express their belligerence to) the designated enemy (that's us) to reassure themselves they hate who they're supposed to, and will, thus, be allowed passage into Heaven. Allegedly and Loveschild cannot be reasoned with until they, themselves, desire to change.
More...
And this does include indoctrination. The quote by St. Ignatius of Loyola that has become the Jesuit motto is an expression of that indoctrination, Give me the boy until he is seven and I will give you the man. It's the idea that a child will be hard to move from the experiences (including teachings) of his or her roots without something short of an identity crisis. And whether a child is raised memorizing scripture, being educated in communist doctrine, recruited into a paramilitary institution that has designated Jews and Soviets as social enemies or taught equality in a pluralistic liberal urbania, the child is going to absorb that to which he or she is exposed.
This presents one of the difficulties of the intellectual elite; we have some instinct to accept designated authority blind, and it requires that transition of self-identification to develop critical thinking skills, which are inherently necessary in scientific thought and process. Fortunately, as our abilities to market, spin and campaign improve, the sooner children are witness to the falsehoods told by designated authorities e.g. parents, teachers and ministers, and the sooner they realize that these sources of alleged doctrine are not perfect, and not necessarily out for the interests of the child.
Most gays were not indoctrinated by a sex positive sector, but were instead sublimely aware of an inability to conform to an unforgiving hetero-normative culture, hence they were either ostracized, or they sought out like-minded folk with whom to better understand themselves.
However, most Christian denominations are hierarchical and their methods stem directly from the precepts of Ignatius of Loyola and Augustine of Hippo, what is identical to what they imagine as indoctrination and brainwashing, so it would make sense for churchgoer activists to conclude that their failures are due to a competing indoctrination program, and not due to the natural variation of humankind. With this assumption, that the Gay American Syndicate (GAS) exists and corrupts the children of the faithful from without they have justification to both persecute the visible gay communities, and ostracize discovered gays within.
So folks like Allegedly and Loveschild really can't help themselves. They're childhood victims of an indoctrination system so well developed that any thought that is even slightly critical of their burned-in doctrine will activate their fears of eternal Hellfire. More than that, this fear is so palpable to them, they have to post here continuously in hopes to either convert the stray undecided agnostic, or to stab at (express their belligerence to) the designated enemy (that's us) to reassure themselves they hate who they're supposed to, and will, thus, be allowed passage into Heaven. Allegedly and Loveschild cannot be reasoned with until they, themselves, desire to change.
48
@29-Of course all parents indoctrinate their own children. But only the incredibly insecure ones are threatened by the exposure of their kids to opposing viewpoints. (And only the hideously insecure opposite-sex parents are threatened by same sex marriage, but that's a side point.) The healthy, secure parents recognize that their kids will be exposed to all kinds of things and will eventually make up their own minds, as persons in their own right, about what makes sense. I am a straight woman raised by conservative parents who stressed the importance of respect and fairness. I love my parents dearly. They did not support same sex marriage but, because of the values I learned from them, I did. After many long discussions about why I was voting against CA's Prop 8, I couldn't convince them to vote it down, but I finally convinced them -- using their own arguments -- not to vote for it. In the end, it's just basic humanity. I learned this from my parents, and they were secure enough to respect the way I put it into practice.
49
Great post, Dan. (Hooray Gus!) My kids have friends with gay parents, lesbian parents, and in one case, two sets of parents - one gay and one lesbian.
It's really wonderful and telling that for them, gay/lesbian marriage isn't unusual at all. And it shows that time is on our side.
It's really wonderful and telling that for them, gay/lesbian marriage isn't unusual at all. And it shows that time is on our side.
50
Good thoughts, Uriel-238.
I was indoctrinated at a tender age by a homophobic father, that queers were worse than murderers, and should be dealt with similarly. So imagine my conflict when I learned that I *wasn't* attracted to women (as Dad said I would be), but instead found men sexually appealing.
LC- you have no idea what destruction you're heaping on the head(s) of any of your children, should they find themselves in my position as teens. No idea. But rest assured that they *will* and do remember every single nasty, evil-hearted thing you've ever said about 'those people'. If you are lucky, they'll find enough open-minded/hearted friends. If you're not, you may be the parent of another teen suicide statistic. My parents nearly were on several occasions before I came to my senses and accepted my nature.
But that didn't happen until well after I'd married and produced two sons. 'The Cure', ala Exodus et al, didn't take.
I was indoctrinated at a tender age by a homophobic father, that queers were worse than murderers, and should be dealt with similarly. So imagine my conflict when I learned that I *wasn't* attracted to women (as Dad said I would be), but instead found men sexually appealing.
LC- you have no idea what destruction you're heaping on the head(s) of any of your children, should they find themselves in my position as teens. No idea. But rest assured that they *will* and do remember every single nasty, evil-hearted thing you've ever said about 'those people'. If you are lucky, they'll find enough open-minded/hearted friends. If you're not, you may be the parent of another teen suicide statistic. My parents nearly were on several occasions before I came to my senses and accepted my nature.
But that didn't happen until well after I'd married and produced two sons. 'The Cure', ala Exodus et al, didn't take.
51
I am so proud to be the cool gay uncle to 3 little boys, and to know that they are being raised to accept all people regardless of their differences.
52
42- Germans specifically chose Jewish bankers to negotiate the Paris treaty after the World War 1. Hence, the leaders of Germany knew they could blame a bad settlement on the Jews. Low and behold the treaty becomes a punitive document against Germany, and the Jews are evil.
That was the modern reason why Hitler and the anti-semites in Europe hated Jews during the 20's, 30's, and 40's. They considered them backstabbers, when in truth it was the Kaiser who knifed them.
That was the modern reason why Hitler and the anti-semites in Europe hated Jews during the 20's, 30's, and 40's. They considered them backstabbers, when in truth it was the Kaiser who knifed them.
53
50- I think if LC had gay kids she would disown them or be satisfied with their suicide. Just look at Alan Keyes. Now there's a strong, black christian role model.
And you catholics with your Nazi youth Pope RATszinger who conspires with child molestors....FUCK YOU! I'll see you in hell RATszinger.
And you catholics with your Nazi youth Pope RATszinger who conspires with child molestors....FUCK YOU! I'll see you in hell RATszinger.
54
I thought it more Hindenburg that did the backstabbing, but Wilhelm certainly gave the knife to Hindenburg to point it where he pleased. Still, the Kaiser's December 1919 telegram to General Mackensen was certainly telling of his anti-Semitic sentiments. It even foreshadows the Final Solution.
55
It's heartening to look at stories like this that show exactly why, as long as we keep pushing, we will win in the end and the hatemongers will lose.
And don't be fooled by the rhetoric. Right-wingers and pseudo-Christian nutjobs (Loveschild) have zero problem with indoctrinating your children into hate. But we don't even have to do any indoctrinating of our own; tolerance being the "default" position when the kids grow up seeing it practiced, all we have to do is counter the hate brigade's attempts and let the kids work it out for themselves.
And don't be fooled by the rhetoric. Right-wingers and pseudo-Christian nutjobs (Loveschild) have zero problem with indoctrinating your children into hate. But we don't even have to do any indoctrinating of our own; tolerance being the "default" position when the kids grow up seeing it practiced, all we have to do is counter the hate brigade's attempts and let the kids work it out for themselves.
57
To add, Loveschild,
Should straight Christian children from straight Christian parents be the only ones allowed voice their opinions and speak about their lives in school? Silence the Jews, Muslims, atheists, gays, etc?
If you don't want to have your children exposed to any ideas other than the hate you teach, home school them. You don't have a right to silence people with whom you disagree.
Should straight Christian children from straight Christian parents be the only ones allowed voice their opinions and speak about their lives in school? Silence the Jews, Muslims, atheists, gays, etc?
If you don't want to have your children exposed to any ideas other than the hate you teach, home school them. You don't have a right to silence people with whom you disagree.
58
My partner and I have been specifically tasked with the "corruption" of our soon to be 1 year old niece when she is old enough to start asking questions. Her straight but not narrow parents don't want to grow up ignorant (like [FUCK YOU!] LC). It is going to be our pleasure to be her resource for all things freaky (after she learns to walk and stops shitting her pants that is...)
59
Thank you, Dan. It is sometimes difficult in the US to keep positive about this issue, especially when the closed-minded and bigoted are all around us - and especially when the closed-minded and bigoted will resort to the most intellectually dishonest tactics. I'm looking at you, LC - trying to divert attention with the whole "insistence of people like him in using kids to bring such topics into schools" part. You seem fairly articulate and intelligent, so I have to assume that you're intentionally drawing the wrong conclusion in order to sway undecided readers (if there are any on this blog). Others have spelled it out for you, but let me try again: these are kids, reflecting on what they see around them, discussing it amongst themselves, and drawing their own conclusions - no adults involved. Gus, with a child's instinct for and understanding of fairness, advocates marriage equality. To him it's simple and obvious - it should be simple and obvious to everyone.
Uriel-238 @47 has it right - all children are indoctrinated at a young age, sometimes intentionally by an organization like a church, sometimes intentionally by parents who seek to inculcate certain ideas and values, sometimes unintentionally by picking up their parents' values and ideas. I know that my 6 month old son is already picking up things from me and my wife, some of which I will probably wish he didn't get. I hope that one thing he does pick up from us is tolerance, respect, and love for others.
The answer, in my opinion, is critical thinking skills. I want my son to be able to examine the stuff I'm giving him (good and bad) and draw rational conclusions about it. I want him to be confident enough in his conclusions to explain and support them, even (especially?) if he disagrees with me. I'm not going to rely on the public school system to teach him these skills because it doesn't do a very good job (based on my experience teaching writing to university freshman).
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Uriel-238 @47 has it right - all children are indoctrinated at a young age, sometimes intentionally by an organization like a church, sometimes intentionally by parents who seek to inculcate certain ideas and values, sometimes unintentionally by picking up their parents' values and ideas. I know that my 6 month old son is already picking up things from me and my wife, some of which I will probably wish he didn't get. I hope that one thing he does pick up from us is tolerance, respect, and love for others.
The answer, in my opinion, is critical thinking skills. I want my son to be able to examine the stuff I'm giving him (good and bad) and draw rational conclusions about it. I want him to be confident enough in his conclusions to explain and support them, even (especially?) if he disagrees with me. I'm not going to rely on the public school system to teach him these skills because it doesn't do a very good job (based on my experience teaching writing to university freshman).
60
Awww, sweet. When I was little, two of my friends had lesbian moms but no one I knew had gay dads, so I was the opposite way!
61
My best friend has a seven-year-old daughter who got into one of these debates at school. She responded by naming the various jurisdictions (Massachusetts, Iowa, etc.) in which boys can marry boys and girls can marry girls. She knew this information because her Daddy (my friend) helped her look it up on the internet.
Yep, he's raising a nerd. A beautiful, gay-friendly nerd.
Yep, he's raising a nerd. A beautiful, gay-friendly nerd.
63
My niece, who has grown up knowing me and my partner, asked her mom about her straight aunt: "So why doesn't Aunt F. have a girlfriend?" Dan, your whole parenting story has been inspiring to me (I have 2 kids with my partner). Thanks for sharing.
64
Loveschild is simply lashing out because this post makes her realise that when her kids grow up they'll break out of her brainwashing and despise her as a stupid old bigot
You're going to be a very lonely old biddy, LC, and that makes me smile :)
You're going to be a very lonely old biddy, LC, and that makes me smile :)
65
Who names their kid "Gus"? Short for "Gustav"? Or was he named after Mercury astronaut Gus Grissom?
66
Gus is a cute name and he sounds completely adorable. The name reminds me of the roly poly dude who Cinderella rescued from the mouse trap so Lucifer the cat couldn't get him. He became friends with Jaq and Cinderella dresses him in a shirt that is too small. Gus-Gus Aaawwwwww
Bibbidi-bobbidi-boo, LC's and idiot too!
Bibbidi-bobbidi-boo, LC's and idiot too!
68
I don't know why you guys are all trying to placate Loveschild with your "reason" and "logic"...I for one am totally trying to indoctrinate and brainwash LC's children!! Not only do I want her children to ACCEPT gays...I want them to BE gay (we need more people to be deviant with, duh!!). The good news is, it's working! More and more out gays every year, and hundreds of times that number straights who have learned to love gays and all our deviant behavior.
You should know, LC, that your strategy of sheltering your children from our gay recruitment squads is only going to help for so long... if you lock your children in a basement until age 18, we'll find them when they leave home...even if you succeed in turning your children into carbon copies of yourself and your beliefs (which rarely works - and, I'm given to understand, works LESS effectively the harder you try at it), what about their children?? The sad fact is, you're not going to be alive forever, LC...it's only a matter of time before we recruit YOUR VERY PROGENY into our sexually deviant ranks.
But I doubt it will take generations...our brainwashing is obviously already working, since you spend hours a day reading our promotional literature here on SLOG, and have developed the sort of obsession that marks your ever-nearer indoctrination into our ranks. We are everywhere and there is no escaping.
I think I speak for all gays, LC, when I say: I can't wait to have gay sex with your children. Anonymous troll, it's safe to say I'm having gay sex with your children even as I type this.
You should know, LC, that your strategy of sheltering your children from our gay recruitment squads is only going to help for so long... if you lock your children in a basement until age 18, we'll find them when they leave home...even if you succeed in turning your children into carbon copies of yourself and your beliefs (which rarely works - and, I'm given to understand, works LESS effectively the harder you try at it), what about their children?? The sad fact is, you're not going to be alive forever, LC...it's only a matter of time before we recruit YOUR VERY PROGENY into our sexually deviant ranks.
But I doubt it will take generations...our brainwashing is obviously already working, since you spend hours a day reading our promotional literature here on SLOG, and have developed the sort of obsession that marks your ever-nearer indoctrination into our ranks. We are everywhere and there is no escaping.
I think I speak for all gays, LC, when I say: I can't wait to have gay sex with your children. Anonymous troll, it's safe to say I'm having gay sex with your children even as I type this.
69
@ 68
I don't need to lock my kids in the basement, we've already talked to two of them who are of appropriate age about what can the homosexual lifestyle leads to. There are no shortage of examples of what's the end game behind all the flashy nuance of the gay life that people like dan like to sell to people.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article…
That young woman's story is sadly all too common in those that chose that lifestyle. All I need to do is point to it, teach my kids the choices that lead to life, happiness, family and hope that once they grow up they chose the life affirming path and not the one of self-destruction.
I don't need to lock my kids in the basement, we've already talked to two of them who are of appropriate age about what can the homosexual lifestyle leads to. There are no shortage of examples of what's the end game behind all the flashy nuance of the gay life that people like dan like to sell to people.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article…
That young woman's story is sadly all too common in those that chose that lifestyle. All I need to do is point to it, teach my kids the choices that lead to life, happiness, family and hope that once they grow up they chose the life affirming path and not the one of self-destruction.
71
I live in a bit of a bubble, as my kid goes to one of the North Seattle Alternative Schools. It's pretty much a homophobia-free zone.
72
@69 *snicker*
the last time i heard these tired old saws was at the GOP national convention. 'lifestyle', eh? *yawn* yeah, like being born female, or Chinese, or Jewish is a 'lifestyle' or a 'choice'.
I'd rather think my kids (or parents, or friends) were engaging in some mutually pleasurable buttfucking (or carpet munching) than that they were spewing any of the absolute santorum that comes out of your mouth.
for one thing, the buttfucking/carpet munching would be done in private - as it should be. by contrast, the hatred and fear you spew is apparently acceptable to you and yours in any public forum. how tasteless.
teach your kids whatever you want. we'll pity them from a distance. (then they'll go off to college and develop minds of their own.) time marches on, and your bigotry will get left in the dust. you've already lost.
the last time i heard these tired old saws was at the GOP national convention. 'lifestyle', eh? *yawn* yeah, like being born female, or Chinese, or Jewish is a 'lifestyle' or a 'choice'.
I'd rather think my kids (or parents, or friends) were engaging in some mutually pleasurable buttfucking (or carpet munching) than that they were spewing any of the absolute santorum that comes out of your mouth.
for one thing, the buttfucking/carpet munching would be done in private - as it should be. by contrast, the hatred and fear you spew is apparently acceptable to you and yours in any public forum. how tasteless.
teach your kids whatever you want. we'll pity them from a distance. (then they'll go off to college and develop minds of their own.) time marches on, and your bigotry will get left in the dust. you've already lost.
73
I just realized something. LC doesn't know any gays/lesbians. Or at least, none that are out to her. Because if she did, she wouldn't post something as completely ridiculous as that article.
74
These days the homosexual lifestyle can lead to....uh....I'm not coming up with anything special.
Screwing men?
Screwing men?
75
One gay lifestyle led to the fastest girl at getting ready to go out. No makeup, no purses to pack; she just jumped into her trousers and boots and was off. Had pics of cute naked girls all over her apartment enough to make a fraternity ashamed. She liked penes as much as vulvae, too. The lifestyle wasn't so much about her sexuality as her character.
Another one involved huge collections of show scores. If I asked to hear Mikado, he'd ask to specify cast, version and performance (uh, your favorite?). That couple also had an awesome hot-tub in their backyard that was something between a garden and a jungle. I was sure pumas lurked in the shadows. I don't know for sure, but I understand comfy hot-tubs are a big part of the gay lifestyle.
Loveschild, you appear to be so far beyond reason and driven by fear that I pity you. You must be paralyzed in terror for walking the promenades of Pandemonium every night.
Another one involved huge collections of show scores. If I asked to hear Mikado, he'd ask to specify cast, version and performance (uh, your favorite?). That couple also had an awesome hot-tub in their backyard that was something between a garden and a jungle. I was sure pumas lurked in the shadows. I don't know for sure, but I understand comfy hot-tubs are a big part of the gay lifestyle.
Loveschild, you appear to be so far beyond reason and driven by fear that I pity you. You must be paralyzed in terror for walking the promenades of Pandemonium every night.
76
68.
Fixed.
Otherwise, brilliant post.
The delightful fact is, you're not going to be alive forever, LC...
Fixed.
Otherwise, brilliant post.
77
Uriel-238, I want to meet YOUR gays...none of mine have hot tubs!
As to your previous comment, I was raised to believe all kinds of stuff that I no longer hold to. It took longer for me to come around, definitely, since it was ingrained at such a young age, but I did come around. Anyone who chooses to think for themselves will at some point question the basis for their assumed beliefs, and so there is hope even for those "oldies" like me!
As to your previous comment, I was raised to believe all kinds of stuff that I no longer hold to. It took longer for me to come around, definitely, since it was ingrained at such a young age, but I did come around. Anyone who chooses to think for themselves will at some point question the basis for their assumed beliefs, and so there is hope even for those "oldies" like me!
78
Dan, sweet story. Not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but an apt comparison would be to look at the interracial marriage bans in many states. While Federal Law nullified it decades earlier, it was not until 2001 that Alabama removed it's interracial marriage prohibition and school segregation laws from our lovely Constitution of 1901. And even then it was only by a narrow margin*. :/
Uriel, I agree with most of what you say but my Jesuit Education requires me to offer one slight correction. The motto (unofficial, there is no official) of The Society of Jesus is Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam. For the Greater Glory of God. Although I prefer my college's motto: In Colle Exaltatus Fons Sapientae. A spring of wisdom is he who was lifted up on the hill. Someone obviously had a sense of humor as the school was named Spring Hill. LOL.
*although the fact that it was purely symbolic may have had something to do with it, as was the arguement made by some that if you guaranteed equal education for all then rich districts would be forced to subsidize poor.
Uriel, I agree with most of what you say but my Jesuit Education requires me to offer one slight correction. The motto (unofficial, there is no official) of The Society of Jesus is Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam. For the Greater Glory of God. Although I prefer my college's motto: In Colle Exaltatus Fons Sapientae. A spring of wisdom is he who was lifted up on the hill. Someone obviously had a sense of humor as the school was named Spring Hill. LOL.
*although the fact that it was purely symbolic may have had something to do with it, as was the arguement made by some that if you guaranteed equal education for all then rich districts would be forced to subsidize poor.
79
re the link @69 - Apparently homosexuality causes diabetes, which can kill you if you don't keep it under control.
Seriously though - hospitalized TWICE after going into diabetic comas? That's tragic.
Seriously though - hospitalized TWICE after going into diabetic comas? That's tragic.
80
Dan: Awww, that's very sweet.
Others: In this case, I don't think Dan is being ageist. (Though maybe there's a touch of that in the photos that are chosen to run here sometimes..) It is simply a matter of time. Most folks..45 or so, or under, that I personally know (I'm 39), are pro gay marriage/for marriage equality. The few people I know who are against it are older than that. Threatned by change. Etc.
Once you know somebody, personally, who's gay, it's harder to say - you personally, gay dude/chick, don't deserve the same rights as me, straight person. Since more people are out now than ever before, more people know, that they know, a gay person/gay people. Until they know someone, it's just an abstract mental image of two guys having buttsex in a back alley & skipping off to church to get married in their assless chaps. 'cause surely that's how it would come down.
All folks who have children & teach them what they believe to be true are guilty of "indoctrination". I bet if Dan's views happened to align w/ yours, LC, it would cease to be indoctrination/brainwashing & magically become good parenting. From a distance, Dan & Terry sound like good parents.
LC - do you have a job? Seriously. It seems like all you live to do is ferret out the gay marriage posts & spew all over them. How do you get by? Dan gets paid to write his views here. Do you secretly hope to change his mind? Or the mind of anyone here? Do you plague other kinda liberal cities, or just Seattle?
Ah well. Happy to read this heartwarming moment from real life. Not a parent, but this made me smile.
Others: In this case, I don't think Dan is being ageist. (Though maybe there's a touch of that in the photos that are chosen to run here sometimes..) It is simply a matter of time. Most folks..45 or so, or under, that I personally know (I'm 39), are pro gay marriage/for marriage equality. The few people I know who are against it are older than that. Threatned by change. Etc.
Once you know somebody, personally, who's gay, it's harder to say - you personally, gay dude/chick, don't deserve the same rights as me, straight person. Since more people are out now than ever before, more people know, that they know, a gay person/gay people. Until they know someone, it's just an abstract mental image of two guys having buttsex in a back alley & skipping off to church to get married in their assless chaps. 'cause surely that's how it would come down.
All folks who have children & teach them what they believe to be true are guilty of "indoctrination". I bet if Dan's views happened to align w/ yours, LC, it would cease to be indoctrination/brainwashing & magically become good parenting. From a distance, Dan & Terry sound like good parents.
LC - do you have a job? Seriously. It seems like all you live to do is ferret out the gay marriage posts & spew all over them. How do you get by? Dan gets paid to write his views here. Do you secretly hope to change his mind? Or the mind of anyone here? Do you plague other kinda liberal cities, or just Seattle?
Ah well. Happy to read this heartwarming moment from real life. Not a parent, but this made me smile.
81
I personally love the fact that although it's wrong for a kid to just express what he sees around him, it is perfectly acceptable for an elementary schooler to chase a class mate around recess yelling that she's going to hell just because she doesn't believe in god. Oh, but wait, in the South that's just the way that works. Sorry, I forgot.
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