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News & ArtsThursday, January 7, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Knee Socks and Pigtails and Butt Sex
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:14 PM
I am writing about a really awesome guy who I have been dating for about 3 months. He is hot, smart, fun, and successful. The icing on the cake is that he is great in bed—creative, fun and attentive. His fetishes are pretty vanilla—pigtails, knee socks, little girl costumes, and anal sex. Even though I am not a huge fan of pigtails or anal, I have been GGG and he seems more than satisfied with the way things are going. I should also point out that he has been GGG as well, fully committing to my rape fantasy and playing the part flawlessly.Sounds perfect, right? Well the problem surfaced last night when we were discussing marriage (not specific to us, just in general), and he said, clearly and directly, that he would immediately end a relationship with any woman who was not open to costumes or anal sex. Since he said ANY woman (and I asked him to verify the inclusiveness of the word “any”, which he did) I can only assume that if I ever decided I was over dressing like a 10 year old or having his dick in my ass, he would leave me—whether we were 3 months or 30 years in. Although I don’t have a problem with practicing his fetishes, I do have a problem with him insinuating that no matter what else I have to offer, it will never be as important as knee socks and fucking me in the ass. Is he not, in effect, comparing my best qualities to anal sex and giving anal sex the one up? I am also extremely turned off by feeling obligated to do something. Basically, he gave me an ultimatum: if I don’t fulfill these fetishes, he will leave me. I am more than happy to don Girl Scout costumes when he asks nicely, particularly because it turns him on, but the second he turned it into a demand, it made me want to tell him to go fuck himself.
Am I being irrational? Is it normal for men to rate knee socks and anal sex above personality and integrity? Or should I see this as a red flag and get away before we get too serious?
TT
My response after the jump...
You are being irrational.
You're three months into a new relationship with a great guy. You're having fun, he's having fun, you're happy to indulge him, he's happy to indulge you. What's the problem? All he did was let you know—in perhaps an insensitive and inarticulate manner—that he could never be truly happy in a relationship that wasn't as sexually fulfilling as the one he has with you now or be happy with a partner who wasn't as awesome and indulgent as you are. Take the compliment, TT. I don't think he meant imply that all your other qualities are pale in comparison to your willingness to pull on knee socks and take it in the ass. But if that's how his comments made you feel, TT, by all means tell him so. Smile and laugh and punch him in the shoulder and ask him if he meant to say that he would be happy to marry a woman who repulsed him emotionally and intellectually and romantically just so long as she wore the costumes and had the anal. Betcha a buttfucking that he says no.
And, again, it's only been three months. Do you really want to obsess about what things will be like thirty years in the future at this stage? You don't know him well enough at this point to know if you'll be together 30 months, TT, much less 30 years.
People change and grow over time—emotionally and sexually—and your sex lives will evolve and grow and change if you wind up together for the rest of your lives. I'm 15 years into a relationship, TT, and you'll just have to trust me on this: stuff moves on and off the menu as the years go by. What doesn't change—if it's present at the start and you're careful to preserve it—is your mutual willingness to find enjoyment in giving each other pleasure. Will he still want you to dress up for him and have anal sex with him thirty years into this relationship? I have no idea, TT. Maybe. Probably. But why assume that you won't want to dress up for him and have anal sex with him thirty years from now?
Unless, of course, you're trying to sabotage this relationship.
1
Agreed. Sounds like she's reading way too deep into his statement and finding a story that isn't there.
2
On the other hand -- if he's THAT into anal and she's not, she should just cut her losses before sexual incompatibility drives them apart.
3
"Am I being irrational? Is it normal for men to rate knee socks and anal sex above personality and integrity? Or should I see this as a red flag and get away before we get too serious?"
I don't think he was putting his fetishes above personality, etc. It sounds more like he was just letting you know that his sexual fulfillment and happiness in life is going to involve his mate catering to certain fetishes. Like Dan said, fetishes and sex lives change over time. Next year he might be into rabbit ears and football jerseys. I would not think to much into his comments and just have fun for now. Let time take its course. Explore some new fetishes with him if he is open to them- fetishes that hopefully both of you can get off on. If later down the line he asks you to marry him, he obviously thinks you have been doing something right.
I don't think he was putting his fetishes above personality, etc. It sounds more like he was just letting you know that his sexual fulfillment and happiness in life is going to involve his mate catering to certain fetishes. Like Dan said, fetishes and sex lives change over time. Next year he might be into rabbit ears and football jerseys. I would not think to much into his comments and just have fun for now. Let time take its course. Explore some new fetishes with him if he is open to them- fetishes that hopefully both of you can get off on. If later down the line he asks you to marry him, he obviously thinks you have been doing something right.
4
One ill-considered asshole remark is probably just an ill-considered asshole remark, which we all make from time to time, and the fact that it was made in an asshole-like phrasing doesn't mean the underlying sentiment's not entirely within his rights.
I reckon it's only significant if TT has reason to think it's symptomatic of a greater asshole lurking within the guy.
I reckon it's only significant if TT has reason to think it's symptomatic of a greater asshole lurking within the guy.
6
I can pretty much guarantee that, 30 years from now, he'll have absolutely no interest in seeing you in pigtails and knee socks.
The bad news is that he probably will still be interested in seeing someone 30 years younger dressed that way.
I'm with Dan - to a point. Enjoy this relationship now while it's going well (and it sounds like it is). It may not last a year, much less 30. Worry about the rest of it when the time comes. But you should also be aware that the time may very well come.
The bad news is that he probably will still be interested in seeing someone 30 years younger dressed that way.
I'm with Dan - to a point. Enjoy this relationship now while it's going well (and it sounds like it is). It may not last a year, much less 30. Worry about the rest of it when the time comes. But you should also be aware that the time may very well come.
8
The boyfriend's comment is no more unreasonable than if TT told him she would immediately end a relationship with a guy who was not open to doing the dishes or folding laundry.
9
Dan's right.
So what if he said it? It's a lot easier to TELL someone you absolutely, positively would do X if Y happened than it is to actually follow through with it. Just look at all the people who continue to stay with their partners after being cheated on, even though they told everyone they'd "absolutely, positively never stay with a cheater."
So what if he said it? It's a lot easier to TELL someone you absolutely, positively would do X if Y happened than it is to actually follow through with it. Just look at all the people who continue to stay with their partners after being cheated on, even though they told everyone they'd "absolutely, positively never stay with a cheater."
10
Does anyone else think TT's boyfriend is going to try and hook up with an actual school girl and wind up with a starring role on "To Catch A Predator"....or is that just me?
12
@8 - yeah, but that's darned important too.
@11 - you manage to do it well, though.
@10 ftw. sadly.
@11 - you manage to do it well, though.
@10 ftw. sadly.
13
The bf said he would dump someone who wasn't open to the idea. TT has already proven she's open to the idea. So what's the problem? My suspicion is that he's not willing to be with someone who's not GGG, who's not willing to try new things, that's all. I agree with Dan - enjoy it and stop reading too much into a comment that was probably meant as a compliment.
15
It sounds like "Pigtails and Round Asses" that makes enjoyable fuck movies. But really, Dan's correct. Women sometimes don't get the importance some men place on their sex lives. If you are not willing to please him, let him know. But I think you'd be making a mistake.
17
I'm with @13. Sounds like the guy was like, I want my future spouse to be GGG for these two fetishes (i.e., she needs to be open to them, not "we need to do these things all the time"). If he wants anal and pigtails and nothing but anal and pigtails, then TT may have a problem, but from what she says, it really sounds like he was giving her a compliment of sorts.
18
Agreed, Dan. I wouldn't get seriously involved with a smoker, but that doesn't meant I value someone's status as a non-smoker over personality or attraction, and it sure doesn't mean I'd marry any sloppy asshole who didn't smoke. Maybe TT has her pigtails on too tight.
19
@15 Women probably don't get the importance some men place on their sex lives because they rarely are allowed to have that priority themselves.
TT, as long as he is willing to satisfy your needs and respects your boundaries, I wouldn't worry about it.
TT, as long as he is willing to satisfy your needs and respects your boundaries, I wouldn't worry about it.
20
Sounds like a pretty fuckwitted thing to say to me. But if I may quote the bible, let he who has never said a fuckwitted thing cast the first stone.
Just because he said that, even if he thought genuinely that he meant it, doesn't mean that he was right about what, at that particular moment in time, he thought that he would do at some hypothetical and unspecified point in the future when faced with the apparently grotesque reality of having to bed down with someone without the allure of pigtails.
In other words, talk is cheap, and 90% horseshit. My advice would be to tell him he's being a fuckwit, laugh it off and get back to having fun.
BTW, I've never done a straw poll on this, but I'd imagine that a guy willing to indulge your "rape fantasies" is a pretty rare breed. No way in the wide world anyone would ever convince me to play the role of a rapist, even for make-believe. In fact the thought of it, and I mean this literally, is more likely to make me vomit than to become aroused. From a position of complete ignorance, I'd have expected most guys to feel the same way.
Just because he said that, even if he thought genuinely that he meant it, doesn't mean that he was right about what, at that particular moment in time, he thought that he would do at some hypothetical and unspecified point in the future when faced with the apparently grotesque reality of having to bed down with someone without the allure of pigtails.
In other words, talk is cheap, and 90% horseshit. My advice would be to tell him he's being a fuckwit, laugh it off and get back to having fun.
BTW, I've never done a straw poll on this, but I'd imagine that a guy willing to indulge your "rape fantasies" is a pretty rare breed. No way in the wide world anyone would ever convince me to play the role of a rapist, even for make-believe. In fact the thought of it, and I mean this literally, is more likely to make me vomit than to become aroused. From a position of complete ignorance, I'd have expected most guys to feel the same way.
21
Just be sure to take videos because at this point, you not only have him by the short and curlies, but you can make his life a living hell in public. What else would a chick want?
Just be sure to take videos because at this point, you not only have him by the short and curlies, but you can make his life a living hell in public. What else would a chick want?
22
Great answer. I smell self sabotage myself. Maybe she has a good reason to want to reject a guy who seems great or maybe this is not a conscious choice for her to make up problems. Either way she said she is turned off feeling "obligated" to do something for him. By that same logic a husband could be tired of being "obligated" to shower and go on a shower sabbatical. Ok so maybe a hygiene analogy goes too far but both partners are obligated to do all kinds of things in a LTR that they have to understand is part of the BS you have to put up with to maintain a LTR.
23
@10- It's not just you, but you're off-base. The vast majority of people can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
@20- Regarding your last paragraph, I'd guess exactly the opposite. Rape fantasy is just a really basic power exchange, and power exchange is always fun.
@20- Regarding your last paragraph, I'd guess exactly the opposite. Rape fantasy is just a really basic power exchange, and power exchange is always fun.
24
@20
You'd be surprised what you can enjoy, and how much you can get out of it, if you're doing it to someone who's getting off on it.
You'd be surprised what you can enjoy, and how much you can get out of it, if you're doing it to someone who's getting off on it.
25
@ 20 As a woman with lots of kinks I got to disagree with your last paragraph. Like 23 said, its an extreme form of power exchange and like all rough play, if done safely rape fantasies can be very fun to have fulfilled. Real rape is completely different- that also goes for 10's suggestion that a school girl outfit fetish means the dude is a child predator. I have a lot of fantasies that go along with my fetishes, but I would go there in real life? No, never. That is why I have a GGG partner who can role play my fantasies along with me.
26
Dan, how do you plan to make good on that bet if you lose? Please explain, with lots of details...
27
@25 et al, I'm not confusing fantasy with reality. I'm not suggesting for a minute that the poster's boyfriend is part rapist, or that rape fantasies are similar in any way to real rape. I'm just saying that the thought of depicting a scene in which, even in the imagination, rape is simulated, strikes me as personally repugnant ("personally" being the operative word - not being judgmental here). I'm not claiming any virtue from that. I'm just saying that I can't imagine being capable physically of indulging that particular fantasy. But then again, maybe Balderdash is right, name notwithstanding?
Anyway, my original point was that this guy sounds like a catch, so she should be wary about tossing him back into the sea.
Anyway, my original point was that this guy sounds like a catch, so she should be wary about tossing him back into the sea.
28
This woman has written a letter to Dan Savage because of an assumption (by her own admission) of the full implications of a comment this guy made that to her suggests a relationship apocalypse waiting to happen. Despite the fact that at the time he made the comment, they were in the middle of a discussion of the subject -- which, I would imagine, would have been the ideal time to talk to the oh-so-wonderful boyfriend about this.
This relationship isn't going to make it to 30 months.
This relationship isn't going to make it to 30 months.
29
I am surprised at how many people are implying that this guy is a pedophile. As I understand it, ageplay is rather distinct from pedophilia, esspecially since this is occuring between two consenting adults. I see nothing particularly horrid about this guy's fetishes, honestly.
30
yes: @1, @8, @9, @13, @19
I think more of what he meant was "I don't consider someone who won't do … as a viable candidate for a long term commitment."
To flip her hypothetical around: if there was a sex act that you were really into, and after 30 years of marriage your partner cut you off for good–no discussion, that is final– would you be happy about that? It demonstrates a lack of consideration.
I also think she, like a lot of people, wants commitments without any responsibility.
I think more of what he meant was "I don't consider someone who won't do … as a viable candidate for a long term commitment."
To flip her hypothetical around: if there was a sex act that you were really into, and after 30 years of marriage your partner cut you off for good–no discussion, that is final– would you be happy about that? It demonstrates a lack of consideration.
I also think she, like a lot of people, wants commitments without any responsibility.
31
hmmm...Dan's sort of right, I think she is jumping the gun a bit, but that statement IS a bit of a red flag and he's guilty of being NON-GGG by saying it.
32
"stuff moves on and off the menu as the years go by"
So Dan, does this mean you don't set up the tent in the living room any more & play Boy Scouts?
So Dan, does this mean you don't set up the tent in the living room any more & play Boy Scouts?
33
Dan's 100% correct. The guy basically said he would end a relationship that wasn't sexually fulfilling, and that to him now, that is synonymous with costumes and anal. If she's looking for a guy who will stick with her even if their sexual interests become incompatible, he's the wrong guy. Then again, pretty much *every* guy is the wrong guy in that case. Most *girls* are the wrong guy in that case.
He was a jerk about it, also a fairly common guy trait. But the sentiment is fair and genuine and typical, and as Dan said, was really a compliment and expression of satisfaction with their sex life.
He was a jerk about it, also a fairly common guy trait. But the sentiment is fair and genuine and typical, and as Dan said, was really a compliment and expression of satisfaction with their sex life.
34
The guy should dump her for mapping out their marriage after a scant 3 months of dating. It shows how immature, possessive and in desperate need of real life experience she is. There is no mention of her age, but I suspect there's a "teen" in there somewhere.
So while he was being honest and telling her of his specific needs, she twisted it to mean that those were his only needs. A partner who can hear you only through her insecurities in not marriage material. Consider this to mean the red flashing danger lights and alarm bells have officially gone off.
So while he was being honest and telling her of his specific needs, she twisted it to mean that those were his only needs. A partner who can hear you only through her insecurities in not marriage material. Consider this to mean the red flashing danger lights and alarm bells have officially gone off.
35
I just thought from what TT says the boyfriend might be a teensy, weensy bit....obsessive. But that's from TT's point of view.
36
His fetishes are pretty vanilla—girltails, anal socks, little pig costumes, and knee sex.
Yeah, that is pretty tame stuff.
Yeah, that is pretty tame stuff.
37
Basic instructions for interpreting what guys say, "If what I said can be taken two ways, and one of them upsets you, I meant it the other way." - Dave Barry
38
@20: I hear you, but one can work up to it. One of my exes was into rape fantasies, and I was initially physically incapable of accommodating her (that is, I immediately went soft). So we had to slowly ease into it to get me comfortable: me pinning one of her hands down, both hands down, etc. Eventually, I was able to be GGG, and I even got into it a bit myself.
IMO, pretty much anything that sends your partner into orgasmic overdrive will eventually turn you on as well. Thank you, Pavlov.
IMO, pretty much anything that sends your partner into orgasmic overdrive will eventually turn you on as well. Thank you, Pavlov.
39
Great advice, Dan. I agree with everything you said, but why did you have to throw in that last sentence? It was needlessly accusatory and has a similar "black or white" tone to the ultimatum that her boyfriend gave her. I read nothing that indicates that she is trying to sabotage her relationship. She was just trying to read between the lines and be proactive about her own future so that she doesn't find herself stuck - possibly with kids - in a shitty "dealbreaker" marriage. That's a healthy thing to think about. Fetishes sometimes escalate and if her boyfriend is giving her ultimatums 3 months along, maybe it's because he is trying to "train" her not to resist future demands. I wouldn't call the conversation a "red flag" but it is a flag nevertheless. She would be lazy to ignore what he said.
The fact that he pleases her sexually is a good sign. They'll probably work it out. Good luck.
The fact that he pleases her sexually is a good sign. They'll probably work it out. Good luck.
40
Also, kudos to the boyfriend for being honest about his desires. He may have been blunt but at least she knows where he stands. You don't get what you want if you don't ask for it. They seem to communicate well with each other.
41
@34 - you don't know many women, do you?
look, she knew if they were going to sleep together on the first date, by this point if she hasn't thought about the possibility of marriage, she's just not that into him.
look, she knew if they were going to sleep together on the first date, by this point if she hasn't thought about the possibility of marriage, she's just not that into him.
42
@34 - She doesn't say who started the discussion about marriage. I'd bet that TT was the one to bring it up in the first place, given how quickly she goes out of her way to point out that it was a discussion about marriage 'in general' and not specific to their situation.
43
@8: Yeah, 'cause women would never demand sexual acts from their boyfriends -- just domestic chores.
Seriously, dude. Logically speaking, what kind of grown adult *refuses* to do laundry or dishes, either helping out their partner or just taking care of their own? Have we really gotten to the point where expecting your girlfriend/boyfriend to NOT BE A CHILD is somehow a special request? Please. Yeah, if you refuse to clean up after yourself or expect me to be a maid for the both of us, I guess it is a dealbreaker.
And as for this: "Is it normal for men to rate knee socks and anal sex above personality and integrity?"
TT, bullshit question.
(1) Good job on being completely condescending.
(2) Ditto on generalizing on half the population based your single THREE-month relationship.
(3) Why the hell does it matter if it's normal or not? If it was, would that really make you feel better?
Seriously, dude. Logically speaking, what kind of grown adult *refuses* to do laundry or dishes, either helping out their partner or just taking care of their own? Have we really gotten to the point where expecting your girlfriend/boyfriend to NOT BE A CHILD is somehow a special request? Please. Yeah, if you refuse to clean up after yourself or expect me to be a maid for the both of us, I guess it is a dealbreaker.
And as for this: "Is it normal for men to rate knee socks and anal sex above personality and integrity?"
TT, bullshit question.
(1) Good job on being completely condescending.
(2) Ditto on generalizing on half the population based your single THREE-month relationship.
(3) Why the hell does it matter if it's normal or not? If it was, would that really make you feel better?
44
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45
TT,
I think you're finding offense where none exists.
It's not that he rates your sexual willingness above your other attributes. His point seems to be that along with all the other basics of a worthwhile partner (wit, integrity, passion, etc.), he also wants a fulfilling sex life. Good on him for telling you so, and good on you for being that girl. We should all be so lucky.
I think you're finding offense where none exists.
It's not that he rates your sexual willingness above your other attributes. His point seems to be that along with all the other basics of a worthwhile partner (wit, integrity, passion, etc.), he also wants a fulfilling sex life. Good on him for telling you so, and good on you for being that girl. We should all be so lucky.
47
TT,
So you would prefer to be reassured that if you wanted to, you could keep this guy around while not actually giving him what he wants? You say you are "extremely turned off by feeling obligated to do something." Relationships are basically a series of obligations interrupted by occasional bursts of self-indulgence. So,
1) Be single; or
2) Stick with this guy if he is worth the obligations involved; or
3) Look for some other guy and hope whatever obligations he entails are worth it, but
Unless you really want to be singe, do not break up with this guy solely because he comes with obligations; particularly if those obligations can be activities which you enjoy sexually. Good luck.
So you would prefer to be reassured that if you wanted to, you could keep this guy around while not actually giving him what he wants? You say you are "extremely turned off by feeling obligated to do something." Relationships are basically a series of obligations interrupted by occasional bursts of self-indulgence. So,
1) Be single; or
2) Stick with this guy if he is worth the obligations involved; or
3) Look for some other guy and hope whatever obligations he entails are worth it, but
Unless you really want to be singe, do not break up with this guy solely because he comes with obligations; particularly if those obligations can be activities which you enjoy sexually. Good luck.
48
I normally don't think Dan is wrong often, but this is one case where I think he is wrong. From what I read, and unless TT is really over exaggerating, it sounded like he told her that if she ever got tired doing those two things he enjoys so much that he would leave her. She asked him to clarify what 'any woman' meant and she implied it clearly included her. That's a red flag to me. Now, maybe she was over exaggerating, and I hope she was, but if not, she should end it before the relationship gets too long and complicated.
And what is with these disturbing kinks? This is just me, and I love anal sex and rimming, but come on - rape fantasies and dressing up to mimic a minor? Some kinks I really can't understand...
But yeah, I think Dan may be wrong this time.
And what is with these disturbing kinks? This is just me, and I love anal sex and rimming, but come on - rape fantasies and dressing up to mimic a minor? Some kinks I really can't understand...
But yeah, I think Dan may be wrong this time.
50
@ 48 Role playing out fetishes that may stem from early sexual fantasies and/or experiences with a consenting (and of course adult) partner is a safe way to outlet those desires rather than actually act out the fantasy. It also can be helpful for people who have been abused or have had negative sexual experiences. My good guy friend went to a private school and grew up seeing all the girls in their school outfits. Of course his first sexual feelings arose when he was attending school there, and now as an adult he loves women in short skirts and thigh highs. Not to mention that some folks just find it hot. Maybe it is a dominance/daddy type of thing? Who knows. I do know however, that role playing/fantasizing can help some (many?) people come quicker/harder in my experience. At least it seems to help!
51
You are not irrational. Get away if you still can. It will get worse if it's starting like this. If you can't convince yourself you can live without him, at least try to do a role reveral and do some domination to him- and I am not just talking ass-play and dressing him up because I have the feeling he would really like that. Right now, you are getting pimped.
52
I do understand her attitude, even though I agree she's overreacting. When your partner likes and is appreciative of something you do, and phrases things as a request, it's very easy to jump on board and have fun, whether it's that kinky thing they like or cooking dinner or taking out the trash. But as soon as it turns into a demand or an expectation, suddenly that pill gets a lot harder to swallow. "Please" and "thank you" go a long way toward greasing the axles of a relationship.
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