Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, January 6, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Marry The Man Today
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 4:42 PM
Here’s the question… I’m a 27 yo straight FM, been dating my BF for almost 2 years. He’s awesome… funny, smart, weird as hell… 7 months ago he was laid off from his job in the finance sector. It sucked but we were sure he would find something again soon. Now it’s 7, almost 8, months later. Still nothing. Since then he has moved home to save money (we don’t cohabitate yet as he wants to ‘do it right’ whatever that means) while I have gotten a promotion and bought a house. Big differences, I guess.I love him dearly and do want to marry him eventually. We often talk about kids names, etc. Recently, ‘helpful’ friends (and him in a more indirect way) have been saying if I want to marry him and pursue a future with this guy, then I should just do it now. Their take: why wait? I, however, want to wait until things are more ‘settled’ meaning he is gainfully employed. But I hear what they are saying… why, if I love this guy, do I want to postpone the inevitable? Isn’t marriage all about sharing joys and sorrows? If I’m unwilling and unable to move forward when things are admittedly sucky with him, does that mean that I’m not truly in love with him? I can’t help but feeling that I am a shitty girlfriend and maybe that I don’t even really love him.
Your Thoughts?
My response after the jump...
If your situations were reversed—if your boyfriend had a secure job and owned a home and you were unemployed, through no fault of your own, and temporarily living with your parents—would you even hesitate to marry him if he asked? Probably not, YT, so what does your hesitance tell us?
Hm... I'm thinking it tells us that there could be a sexist double standard at work here.
Unless there's something else going on that you neglected to mention—unless he's unemployed eight months after being laid off because he's a directionless and apathetic slug and not just another person fucked by the current economic crisis (that he may have had a role in creating through his work in the "finance sector")—your reluctance to make an honest man out him may not mean you love him any less, YT, only that you've thoughtlessly succumbed to an ever-more-destructive sexual stereotype about men: a man has to make more money than a woman in order for her to find him attractive. Women are sex objects, men are success objects, blah blah blah. Because, hey, a man is worthless if he can't... what? Provide. Be the breadwinner. Take care of his wife and family. Sorry, YT, but men—and women—can't afford the luxury of those sexist assumptions anymore. Even before this recession hit—and this recession is hitting men harder (70% of the jobs losses have been among men; women now surpass men in the workforce)—women are in the workforce to stay. Women are still discriminated against—even though such discrimination is illegal—but women compete and women win. And what do they win? Good, high-paying jobs, jobs that used to be reserved exclusively for... men.
A modern woman—a woman who makes the kind of money that allows her to buy a house on one salary—who can't see herself marrying a man who makes less money than she does, or supporting a man who makes no money at all, i.e. a stay-at-home dad, doesn't really believe in the equality of the sexes and may wind up fucking herself out of the love her life because she's invested in dated stereotypes about men and women and money and power and the way relationships between men and women are supposed to work.
The world has changed. For good, YT, forever. You helped change it. And unless there's some other reason why you shouldn't marry this guy—gambling problem? no ambition? momma's boy?—you might want to propose to him before some other woman comes along and makes an honest man/househusband/stay-at-home dad out of him.
And now... for your listening pleasure... the song referenced in the title of this post... a reference the show queens out there spotted instantly...
3
There's a difference between "a man has to make more money than a woman" and "a man has to have a freaking job". Though I agree with your general conclusion (marry him), he needs to make something happen. It doesn't have to be a million bucks a year, but SOMETHING.
4
I say no. Wait until he's working and been employed for a while before you consider it. You will only resent him if he's not working and you are. Plus, he has bum potential. No bums! You want someone to have kids with, not be a mother to.
5
No way. Men should work, period. Sorry, guys, that's your station in life and the price you pay for all the cultural and physical advantages you are handed at birth.
6
I say, call it off. The expectations you are going to put on this guy are going to eventually tear you apart.
7
Yes, YT, but look carefully for that "some other reason," because your gut may be telling you something about him. I was in the same situation, went ahead and married the guy, paid off his student loans, and said, basically, "Brave New World here and we make the rules--we have enough, so you find what you like to do and do that." I didn't mind being the heavy breadwinner, and I didn't think he had to keep house either. But (and be very careful here) we wound up with the damnedest most gender-bent world and it was NOT pretty. He became your classic bitchy shrewish wife--demanding a German car, wanting designer clothes and first-class travel, refusing to take jobs that "were beneath him," (or any job whatsoever) and eventually taking years of alimony when the marriage ended. Would this happen with any guy? Probably not, but I went with the feminist trope that we didn't have live by old roles without closely examining whether the guy in question was able to hold up his end. Think about your guy carefully. Really.
9
Great advice! It is absolutely perverse that this attitude persists. I think that YT should consider herself lucky that
a) she has a good job and can afford to buy a house,
b) she is with someone who she loves dearly, and
c) she is with someone who is going out of his way (moving in with is parents) to not be a financial burden on her because of his bad luck in the job market. Maybe to him "doing it right" with regard to cohabitation means that he wants to wait until he can contribute financially to the household?
a) she has a good job and can afford to buy a house,
b) she is with someone who she loves dearly, and
c) she is with someone who is going out of his way (moving in with is parents) to not be a financial burden on her because of his bad luck in the job market. Maybe to him "doing it right" with regard to cohabitation means that he wants to wait until he can contribute financially to the household?
10
HA! Story of my life. If both parties want to get married, do it. Nothing wrong with a house-husband.
11
To folks chiming in with "a man has to have a freaking job" and "Men should work", I invite you to apply the very first test Dan suggested: would your answer be any different if the genders were reversed?
"My girlfriend of two years is awesome and I think we should get married, but she's been out of a job for seven months and I think she should be gainfully employed before we get married, even though I have a great job and my own house. My friends tell me that if I really love her I should just marry her now. What do you think?"
If your answer is different, I'm with Dan: you're operating with outdated gender stereotypes. Insisting that women be treated on an equal footing with men cuts both ways. If you want to insist that men have a greater obligation to work and provide for their partners and families, then you need to be OK with going back to the 50s-era practice of preferring men over women for jobs since -- hey, surprise! -- men are the providers and women aren't.
"My girlfriend of two years is awesome and I think we should get married, but she's been out of a job for seven months and I think she should be gainfully employed before we get married, even though I have a great job and my own house. My friends tell me that if I really love her I should just marry her now. What do you think?"
If your answer is different, I'm with Dan: you're operating with outdated gender stereotypes. Insisting that women be treated on an equal footing with men cuts both ways. If you want to insist that men have a greater obligation to work and provide for their partners and families, then you need to be OK with going back to the 50s-era practice of preferring men over women for jobs since -- hey, surprise! -- men are the providers and women aren't.
12
Excellent points all, but if I had to speculate—and I do because I'm a bad person—bet she's been going out a little more than she used to. It's amazing the reasons were have to give ourselves.
13
@5 - But perhaps a society in which it is acceptable for a woman to be the breadwinner and a man to be the stay-at-home spouse would go a long way toward rectifying those cultural advantages that men are handed at birth.
Besides, those physical advantages can be used to make housework more efficient. God knows that being taller would make cleaning high cabinets a lot easier for me. The exception here would be during pregnancy, when, yes, the man has to pick up a lot of the economic slack because pregnant women, at least toward the end of the gestational period, *can't*.
Double standards do cut both ways. Of course men are the primary beneficiaries of those double standards, but there are situations - such as the above - where they suffer as well. A man shouldn't be emasculated just because he does most of the cooking/cleaning/housework (which can be fucking exhausting) and the woman is the one out there making money.
Besides, those physical advantages can be used to make housework more efficient. God knows that being taller would make cleaning high cabinets a lot easier for me. The exception here would be during pregnancy, when, yes, the man has to pick up a lot of the economic slack because pregnant women, at least toward the end of the gestational period, *can't*.
Double standards do cut both ways. Of course men are the primary beneficiaries of those double standards, but there are situations - such as the above - where they suffer as well. A man shouldn't be emasculated just because he does most of the cooking/cleaning/housework (which can be fucking exhausting) and the woman is the one out there making money.
14
I see two very different avenues here.
1.) If the BF is sincerely looking for a job, and just can't find one in this economy (especially with thousands of laid-off Wa-Mu employees in the same boat), then Dan is totally correct.
2.) However, if he got laid off, and is now turning into a deadbeat, and is only half-heartedly trying to get a job, then maybe this economy did you a favor. It revealed your BF to be a deadbeat. If so, your hesitation is totally warranted.
1.) If the BF is sincerely looking for a job, and just can't find one in this economy (especially with thousands of laid-off Wa-Mu employees in the same boat), then Dan is totally correct.
2.) However, if he got laid off, and is now turning into a deadbeat, and is only half-heartedly trying to get a job, then maybe this economy did you a favor. It revealed your BF to be a deadbeat. If so, your hesitation is totally warranted.
15
I would not do it unless I knew the guy either had "househusband potential" (not all are interested in it, obvs) or was willing to retrain if he can't find a job in his field. And yes, I would apply the same test to a woman.
16
Wow. I was surprised, and I find it odd here, to find comments about how "the man needs to be working."
I was under the impression that this sort of "keep things the way they've always been" thinking was outdated. Just like "traditional marriage" being ONLY between a man and a woman is outdated.
What does marriage have to do with employment? People get married because they love the other person and want to spend their lives with them, richer or poorer, right?
I was under the impression that this sort of "keep things the way they've always been" thinking was outdated. Just like "traditional marriage" being ONLY between a man and a woman is outdated.
What does marriage have to do with employment? People get married because they love the other person and want to spend their lives with them, richer or poorer, right?
17
I really can't understand people that are unemployed for that long. Was his job so good that unemployment pays better than a crap job?
When my job caused us to move, my wife got a job her first week. Not the nice IT job she had in Seattle, but working for a slum lord as a receptionist for $6.50 an hour twenty hours a week. First job she could get the week we got there. She just couldn't take not working.
When my job caused us to move, my wife got a job her first week. Not the nice IT job she had in Seattle, but working for a slum lord as a receptionist for $6.50 an hour twenty hours a week. First job she could get the week we got there. She just couldn't take not working.
18
@16: sorry for the reality injection, but someone in the family has to work. What if she were to get laid off?
19
@11: He should be doing something -- work, school, whatever. For both sexes, you stay home only if you're going to school, running a business, or taking care of children. You can't spend your productive years sitting at home and dusting shelves, having someone else pay all the bills.
But the thing here is that it doesn't sound like he's TRYING to doing any of these things -- he's just down on his luck. He WANTS a job. Like @9 pointed out, it feels like he's trying hard to get back on his feet and back to being a contributor (equal or not), by moving to his parents and not putting himself in debt to her.
Me? I'd feel like a leech if I was unemployed and marrying a man who can afford his own house. It's not a matter of gender; it's a matter of feeling like I'm giving as much as I can, being an equal partner, not a dependent.
My take: Get engaged. Ask him to marry you. Help him to find a job, as much as you can. He'll get one eventually. Meanwhile, can he get a part-time job? That might help offset the house situation -- he could move in, do as much chores as he can, and pay you a smaller amount of rent.
But the thing here is that it doesn't sound like he's TRYING to doing any of these things -- he's just down on his luck. He WANTS a job. Like @9 pointed out, it feels like he's trying hard to get back on his feet and back to being a contributor (equal or not), by moving to his parents and not putting himself in debt to her.
Me? I'd feel like a leech if I was unemployed and marrying a man who can afford his own house. It's not a matter of gender; it's a matter of feeling like I'm giving as much as I can, being an equal partner, not a dependent.
My take: Get engaged. Ask him to marry you. Help him to find a job, as much as you can. He'll get one eventually. Meanwhile, can he get a part-time job? That might help offset the house situation -- he could move in, do as much chores as he can, and pay you a smaller amount of rent.
20
That comment about not wanting to cohabitate so he could "do it right, whatever that means" set off some alarm bells with me. Who has the stereotypical attitude here? I say take that "half step" and have him move in - a little dry run so to speak - so she can better gauge all of those "gut things" others have mentioned. A fact finding mission. See how he is day to day with this difficult time, and if they truly do mesh as a couple, regardless of the temporary status of one of them.
21
I'd be nervous. You might want to ask him to move in for a three-month trial. If he keeps the house clean and puts dinner on the table without complaint, great. If he plays video games all day, drinks beer and seems overly friendly with a lot of females in the neighborhood, dump him.
22
@13: "cooking/cleaning/housework (which can be fucking exhausting)"
Can't argue that, but can he really find 8 hours a day worth of cooking/cleaning/housework? Seriously? I work 9-5 and I find it manageable enough to do housework in the same day. (Childcare is another matter.)
Dude needs a job -- not just to be marriage "material," but to give himself financial security and independence. What if they break up? He's just ... broke? What if he wants to buy her gifts? What if he wants to buy anyone gifts?
Remember when women had to ask their husbands for allowances, to buy a hairbrush, socks, whatever? Ugh. I would never want to depend on someone like that, ever, if I don't have to.
Can't argue that, but can he really find 8 hours a day worth of cooking/cleaning/housework? Seriously? I work 9-5 and I find it manageable enough to do housework in the same day. (Childcare is another matter.)
Dude needs a job -- not just to be marriage "material," but to give himself financial security and independence. What if they break up? He's just ... broke? What if he wants to buy her gifts? What if he wants to buy anyone gifts?
Remember when women had to ask their husbands for allowances, to buy a hairbrush, socks, whatever? Ugh. I would never want to depend on someone like that, ever, if I don't have to.
24
For a man with the largest adam's apple I've ever seen (more like an adam's watermelon??), Mr. Savage gives good advice and his response to this letter is spot on.
25
I've been fucked by the economy for 6 months now. My bf, rather than let me move in with my parents, has been awesome enough to help me out. The motivation is so much greater to find a job when it's someone you love helping to support you vs. your parents. Life balances out, it sucks for me now. In 6 months I might have a job and my bf might lose his. Living together could improve this guys situation/ self-esteem to get out into the real world again. But if you do let him move in you have to do it with a whole heart mentality and generosity, and not make him feel any worse about not having a job everyday. You should marry him if you think he'd do the same for you and if he's the person you know you want to be with no matter what because one day it could be you instead...
27
Being able to stick it out during unemployed periods and emerge gracefully with a new job is a major skill for him to prove he has (prove to both of you, that is) before you tie the knot. Some people fall apart, or will, especially those transitioning from working most of their lives in the formerly got-a-pulse-you're-hired finance sector.
No need to marry him until he's come through it; he's got all the love and support from you he needs while his mettle is tested nicely.
(I'm assuming your perspective is merely that both of you ought to be steadily employed before you hitch, free from the trope-a-doping that's obsessing some commenters above.)
No need to marry him until he's come through it; he's got all the love and support from you he needs while his mettle is tested nicely.
(I'm assuming your perspective is merely that both of you ought to be steadily employed before you hitch, free from the trope-a-doping that's obsessing some commenters above.)
28
There's no horrible rush to get married, I think. If she's not sure, I think it's better to wait than to jump in.
What is he doing with his time during unemployment? Rebuilding his skill set so that he'll be able to find a job once the market picks back up? Volunteering so as to contribute something while everyone is suffering? Catching up on the soaps?
Regardless of gender, that's what should influence the decision.
What is he doing with his time during unemployment? Rebuilding his skill set so that he'll be able to find a job once the market picks back up? Volunteering so as to contribute something while everyone is suffering? Catching up on the soaps?
Regardless of gender, that's what should influence the decision.
29
@ 13 - Fair enough - what I'm saying is that if someone is down on his luck in the employment department, or takes on a less challenging/fulfilling/time-consuming job, then it falls onto them to take on more of the household responsibility. And what I had a problem with was 5's assertion that because men have all these sociocultural advantages, men need to be pulling in the big bucks to be marriage material, which is not what you're saying. And I think your advice is spot on.
And for some of the other commentators - yes, if you take a crap job in a crap economy, you are actually damaging your resume for future job hunts. You don't want to devalue yourself and your degree, so it makes sense to hold out for something that, if not quite as good as your previous job, is at least in the same *field.*
And for some of the other commentators - yes, if you take a crap job in a crap economy, you are actually damaging your resume for future job hunts. You don't want to devalue yourself and your degree, so it makes sense to hold out for something that, if not quite as good as your previous job, is at least in the same *field.*
30
I think she should actually marry me, because while I have a job, I'd like to not have one. In fact, I've been looking for an afluent and indulgent woman to start buying me titanium bicycles in return for me cooking (I'm a good cook), making sweet love, and telling the maid where to clean.
32
@29, taking a crap interim job in a crap economy hurts your image with a future employer waaaay less now than at any point since the 70s recession ended. First, if you include it in your resume every future employer will know full well how real was the wall of non-hiring you were up against, and that you showed some spunk and humility.
Second, you can always leave it off your resume if you're chicken.
Second, you can always leave it off your resume if you're chicken.
33
I think bringing the gender double standard lecture into it is making a big assumption. Maybe he's living at home and still completely unemployed 8 months after he lost his job by chance. Or maybe he's depressed. Or maybe he's not really a grown up yet. Etcetera, etcetera. Certainly cause for concern before taking someone on for life.
34
My career crapped out within a year of getting married. There are no guarantees in life, so marrying him while he's employed buys you no assurances.
35
@ 20.. i don't usually answer these things on slog...but.. bells went off with me too. the not wanting to cohabitate part and the 'weird as hell' part.. 'weird as hell 'sounds kinda cool on paper, but when you're living together and you find out that tofu is his favorite condiment - even for breakfast - or that he loves to fart in bed or well ...all the thousands of things you don't find out until you live together..it's another story. he wants to 'do it right ' sounds like the kind of traditional that may seek to keep you barefoot and prgenant.. or some other weird thing . i knew a traditional couple who decided that they could no longer have friends that were single of the opposite sex.. so they dumped those friends first..and shortly all the other ones.. then they moved to rural alaska.. it took two kids and roughly ten years before they grew to hate each other..
live with him first ...really..but don't marry him until you got more to go on..
live with him first ...really..but don't marry him until you got more to go on..
37
On behalf of all the househusbands out there, thanks Dan. For everyone who says that you must have a job or go to school or raise children to have value, fuck you. It is no ones business how a couple works out its own dynamic. If a marriage works, it works. Leave it to our liberal, slog selves to be so judgmental about how someone else should conduct their own marriage.
38
Seven months? That's nothing. I'm coming up on a year--minus three months for a short term contract position--and my husband's been laid off for fourteen months. We're both architects and a crappier time to be one I have yet to hear about. We're on unemployment--though mine runs out in 20 weeks due to the expiration of the extensions passed by the federal government--and are looking for jobs as well as starting our own practice but THERE ARE NO JOBS OUT THERE! Give this guy a break. It's not unusual for folks these days to have long stints on unemployment. It doesn't mean we're lazy or deadbeats, it just means THERE ARE NO JOBS OUT THERE!!!!
Oh, and marry the guy already.
Oh, and marry the guy already.
39
So by her logic, if they were married and he lost his job... she would divorce him? Because you can't be married without a job? I just don't see how the employment/marriage thing is so closely tied. Unemployed-in the-worst-economy-in-50-years is not the same as unemployed-because-he-doesn't-feel-like-working.
40
@17 Yes, his job was probably that good. I was also laid off from the financial sector and made more on unemployment than a full time, crappy wage job. For me, I didn't apply for those crappy jobs because I wanted to focus my full attention on getting a good job that paid around what I was making before. Just because someone is jobless doesn't meant they're worthless.
41
@18,
So are both partners in a marriage required to be employed then? I mean, if he had the job and she didn't, then your argument would still be the same for not getting married, i.e., he could get laid off.
The comments here really struck me as 19th century, outdated and sexist.
So are both partners in a marriage required to be employed then? I mean, if he had the job and she didn't, then your argument would still be the same for not getting married, i.e., he could get laid off.
The comments here really struck me as 19th century, outdated and sexist.
42
(1) I agree with Fnarf that I didn’t get the vibe that she thinks he has to make more money than her. It’s a huge leap to go from her saying “he should have a job” to Dan hearing “he needs to make more money than me”.
(2) I’m definitely equal opportunity on this one in terms of if the genders were reversed. I'm of the opinion that if one does not have kids, one should be working (or going to school or starting a business or making art or whatever). Regardless of gender. Unless you’re independently wealthy, I suppose. I remember being completely flabbergasted when I found out that an ex of mine had married a girl who doesn’t work (“what? She doesn’t work? Or go to school? What does she do?! They don’t even have kids!”)
(3) Why all the focus on getting married? Why the rush? Really? YT is only 27, give it a couple of years (and, for heaven’s sake, live together before getting hitched).
(4) A friend of mine’s husband lost his job (in finance) in the post-9/11 recession. At first, they were fine – I remember talking to her about it, and her mindset was “sometimes he’s going to be down, and I’m going to be carrying things, and sometimes I’m going to be the one who’s down” (which was, incidentally, advice that I took to heart when I got married). But he proved to be one of those people who “fell apart” (as gloomy gus said). He really wanted a job (he wasn’t one of the sit around and play video game types), but being unemployed eventually turned him into an asshole. Resentment on both sides of the relationship ensued… They got divorced after about 2 years. I agree with the folks who say this could be an interesting test to see what kind of person he really is…
(2) I’m definitely equal opportunity on this one in terms of if the genders were reversed. I'm of the opinion that if one does not have kids, one should be working (or going to school or starting a business or making art or whatever). Regardless of gender. Unless you’re independently wealthy, I suppose. I remember being completely flabbergasted when I found out that an ex of mine had married a girl who doesn’t work (“what? She doesn’t work? Or go to school? What does she do?! They don’t even have kids!”)
(3) Why all the focus on getting married? Why the rush? Really? YT is only 27, give it a couple of years (and, for heaven’s sake, live together before getting hitched).
(4) A friend of mine’s husband lost his job (in finance) in the post-9/11 recession. At first, they were fine – I remember talking to her about it, and her mindset was “sometimes he’s going to be down, and I’m going to be carrying things, and sometimes I’m going to be the one who’s down” (which was, incidentally, advice that I took to heart when I got married). But he proved to be one of those people who “fell apart” (as gloomy gus said). He really wanted a job (he wasn’t one of the sit around and play video game types), but being unemployed eventually turned him into an asshole. Resentment on both sides of the relationship ensued… They got divorced after about 2 years. I agree with the folks who say this could be an interesting test to see what kind of person he really is…
43
Get engaged but don't set a date yet. Weddings are expensive and it probably wouldn't help his self esteem for you to be paying for everything (unless he is a deadbeat). What's the hurry? This is one decision that you don't want to have any doubts about. Good luck! :)
44
Language: English (change)
It all boils down to one thing, do you want to support , sustain, provide for
financially this man ? because it seems if you propose to him (red flag right there) it won't be a case of you being the primary bread-earner but you being the only one. If you want to play mother to a grown man, then go for it but you know what the future holds for you already.
Think about it, funny, smart, and eccentric men are a dime a dozen, it's okay to look for that in a man, it more than okay it a necessity because you will be sharing your life and forming a family with him, but that needs to be coupled with financial stability, otherwise as the relationship moves on the last thing you'll be noticing is his jokes and peculiarities.
It all boils down to one thing, do you want to support , sustain, provide for
financially this man ? because it seems if you propose to him (red flag right there) it won't be a case of you being the primary bread-earner but you being the only one. If you want to play mother to a grown man, then go for it but you know what the future holds for you already.
Think about it, funny, smart, and eccentric men are a dime a dozen, it's okay to look for that in a man, it more than okay it a necessity because you will be sharing your life and forming a family with him, but that needs to be coupled with financial stability, otherwise as the relationship moves on the last thing you'll be noticing is his jokes and peculiarities.
45
@38 - I'm at 14 months of job hunting. You are spot on. And anyone who thinks you it's a breeze to live on unemployment benefits isn't trying to do it. Benefits are proportional to what you were making and I'm taking home about half of what I made. We've cut a lot of expenses and are running out of savings. It's damned hard to keep a positive job hunt going....
46
I wouldn't want a live-in girlfriend or wife without a job. They always end up fucking the contractor. Idle hands...
47
Isn't one of the marriage vows: for richer or poorer? She clearly loves money more, so she should marry her money instead and leave the poor fella already for his own sake.
48
Matt A (@11) rewrote the statement about the unemployed person being the girlfriend, rather than the boyfriend. I read it carefully, and all the same red flags came up for me. A lot people really can't make it on just one income when there are kids or special expenses (like, say, a mortgage) involved. I'm married to a musician, and we struggle for money all the time even though I'm a state employee. It would be great to be in a two-income household, but being the "heavy breadwinner" is a huge burden, regardless of one's gender.
49
Meh, this woman just said out loud what most women manage to keep to themselves. Even though plenty of them still try to claim the golddiggers' worldview is a myth or a rare exception, amazingly.
Don't tell this woman to marry today, Dan; the poor guy doesn't need that burden.
Don't tell this woman to marry today, Dan; the poor guy doesn't need that burden.
50
Here’s the question… I’m a 27 yo straight FM, been dating my BF for almost 2 years. He’s awesome… funny, smart, weird as hell… I love him dearly and do want to marry him eventually. Recently, ‘helpful’ friends (and him in a more indirect way) have been saying if I want to marry him and pursue a future with this guy, then I should just do it now. Their take: why wait? I, however, want to wait until things are more ‘settled’ meaning he is gainfully employed. But I hear what they are saying… why, if I love this guy, do I want to postpone the inevitable?
If you would like to marry him now, then I wouldn't let the fact that he's unemployed stop you (and your friends seem to agree.)
However, even though you say you do want to marry him eventually, maybe you're not all that certain about it. Maybe there are a few other things about him that give you pause and you'd be better off waiting for those reasons. If he loves you then I highly doubt he's going to walk away simply because you want to wait a while longer.
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3/Fnarf: It doesn't have to be a million bucks a year, but SOMETHING.
42/Julie: I agree with Fnarf that I didn’t get the vibe that she thinks he has to make more money than her. It’s a huge leap to go from her saying “he should have a job” to Dan hearing “he needs to make more money than me”.
I see a parallel between men and their job/income and women and weight. Women frequently accuse men of wanting "supermodels" but I think that's nonsense. I think most men aren't interested in obese or fat women but that doesn't mean they want "supermodels" or women who are skinny. They just want women who are fit, in reasonably good shape. So it is when men accuse women of wanting "millionaires." Sure, some women do want millionaires, just like some men want supermodels (and frequently they find each other: Tiger, meet Elin; Elin, meet Tiger...and, eventually, his harem), but most women just want a guy who's financially fit (although, to be sure, almost always more financially fit than they are.) The way I see it, a guy who's underemployed is like a woman who's overweight and man who's unemployed is like a woman who's obese in terms of their appeal (or lack thereof) to the opposite sex.
More...
If you would like to marry him now, then I wouldn't let the fact that he's unemployed stop you (and your friends seem to agree.)
However, even though you say you do want to marry him eventually, maybe you're not all that certain about it. Maybe there are a few other things about him that give you pause and you'd be better off waiting for those reasons. If he loves you then I highly doubt he's going to walk away simply because you want to wait a while longer.
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3/Fnarf: It doesn't have to be a million bucks a year, but SOMETHING.
42/Julie: I agree with Fnarf that I didn’t get the vibe that she thinks he has to make more money than her. It’s a huge leap to go from her saying “he should have a job” to Dan hearing “he needs to make more money than me”.
I see a parallel between men and their job/income and women and weight. Women frequently accuse men of wanting "supermodels" but I think that's nonsense. I think most men aren't interested in obese or fat women but that doesn't mean they want "supermodels" or women who are skinny. They just want women who are fit, in reasonably good shape. So it is when men accuse women of wanting "millionaires." Sure, some women do want millionaires, just like some men want supermodels (and frequently they find each other: Tiger, meet Elin; Elin, meet Tiger...and, eventually, his harem), but most women just want a guy who's financially fit (although, to be sure, almost always more financially fit than they are.) The way I see it, a guy who's underemployed is like a woman who's overweight and man who's unemployed is like a woman who's obese in terms of their appeal (or lack thereof) to the opposite sex.
51
I am not even going to date a woman without a job of some sort. The wage does not matter, but they should be working. (No kids in my future, thank you.) Once you are married, well that is a different story- you did make a promise. Until that time.....
I do know a few house husbands. One cycles incredibly well and often, and has a cool video game room at his house. The wife, who makes good money, wanted to have kids, but the husband said no because she was working to much to help take care of any child. Stories like keep reminding me why my spouse has to work or have a business.
I do know a few house husbands. One cycles incredibly well and often, and has a cool video game room at his house. The wife, who makes good money, wanted to have kids, but the husband said no because she was working to much to help take care of any child. Stories like keep reminding me why my spouse has to work or have a business.
52
Can someone tell me, sheriously, why people get married? Early marriage is one more thing, like pledges of allegiance, that Americans have in common with the former Soviet bloc. If you're not doing it for children or a work permit, why do people marry?
53
I say don't do it. If you are having such serious doubts about his financial status, than maybe you just aren't the type of woman who can be with an unemployed guy. Maybe you want to be- maybe you know you should be- but we should make decisions like marriage based on how we actually are, not how we think/wish/are told we should be.
And this spoken as a future doctor paired with an unemployed biologist (with absolutely no doubt that he is the man for me and we should marry).
And this spoken as a future doctor paired with an unemployed biologist (with absolutely no doubt that he is the man for me and we should marry).
55
@ 51, She has been with him 2 yrs, he was laid off 7 months ago. Would you DTMFA in that situation? I wouldn't unless the relationship was already headed towards a dead end or unhealthy.
57
Marry him, you could always get a divorce. That's if he'll have you. There's probably a reason he hasn't proposed to you yet... more than just being out of work.
59
Does YT want to be the primary caretaker? I would never be a homemaker, but I have always planned on being the primary caretaker ... that's the whole reason why I am working on my Masters, and eventually PhD. My auntie was a prof, and only had to work 2 days a week. She was able to play the part of mom and work meaningful, well paid, respectable work. Most women I know want to do both, Dan. I know you have a very traditional family structure, where there is a breadwinner and a homemaker, but I would never want to live in that kind of structure. You assume that YT does. It just frustrates me, because the message to most women is that you can be a mom or a worker, but never both. I don't buy it, and I don't think YT should have to either. I would not marry someone that wasn't working ... if they lost their job while I was married to them, than this would be different. I would want that person to know that I expect them to help bring in some income before I married them. They don't have to make more; they just have to work.
60
Uhhh, Nova @ 59. You are quite misinformed about the real world of university faculty. I do not know any place where a full time professor who only works two days a week is respected or well paid. I am a professor at an R1 big time university and I work 6 days a week for about 10 or 12 hours a day. And this year we all got a pay cut that took a chunk out of our already comparatively low salaries. I have a house husband who is a lawyer w/office at home, thank god. No children. Impossible.
I am not saying you can't be both a mom and a worker but I don't recommend the academic life for those who do. Your auntie is the exception not the rule.
I am not saying you can't be both a mom and a worker but I don't recommend the academic life for those who do. Your auntie is the exception not the rule.
61
I married my ex while he was unemployed and I had just recently landed a great job. The dynamic that I think matters more than gender roles is the psychological toll it takes to be without work. My ex had worked his entire life, and had always earned enough to support himself. It was tough for him to be taking what he considered a hand-out by having me pay all the bills. So maybe it's not about making "more" money as the male, but just the fact that there is a sense of pride and accomplishment that you have when you contribute in the way you're familiar with. My ex could clean and keep house and stuff, but it wasn't what fulfilled him, and it ultimately made him miserable.
And I've been unemployed now for several months, as has my sister...it is TOUGH to find a job! If anyone thinks I haven't been applying for crap jobs, you're wrong. The problem is that once you've had a lot of experience, the crap jobs don't want to hire you because they know you'll be dissatisfied and looking for other work. And the good jobs are being clung to for dear life by the lucky few who have them.
And I've been unemployed now for several months, as has my sister...it is TOUGH to find a job! If anyone thinks I haven't been applying for crap jobs, you're wrong. The problem is that once you've had a lot of experience, the crap jobs don't want to hire you because they know you'll be dissatisfied and looking for other work. And the good jobs are being clung to for dear life by the lucky few who have them.
62
Dear FM,
You sound like the typical Alpha Female who only needs a boy toy and house husband.
There you are, doing all the driving in your RAV4, while handsome sits in the passenger seat and whines about how his iPhone app isn't working.
You don't need anything more than a male placeholder for your bedroom, so why wait. Get on with your life as it's meant to be lived.
Dear FM,
You sound like the typical Alpha Female who only needs a boy toy and house husband.
There you are, doing all the driving in your RAV4, while handsome sits in the passenger seat and whines about how his iPhone app isn't working.
You don't need anything more than a male placeholder for your bedroom, so why wait. Get on with your life as it's meant to be lived.
64
@61 - Yes, that was well said. It absolutely does take a psychological toll on many people to be without work -- you can feel useless, unfulfilled, like you're never going to accomplish anything. And, just to put this out there, I would bet that taken on average, men might be hit harder psychologically by being laid off than women. My friend's out-of-work husband had something of a "traditional man" thing going on, and I really think that made him feel that much worse (and be that much more of an asshole). Again, just on average, as always there would be exceptions (notably, me, since I would probably be hit pretty hard by being out of work). I just think that because of all the messages that society still sends to men about being providers, they might be more likely to feel like they're not fulfilling their role.
65
Dan Savage, there is so much to discuss here. Including useful thoughts on marital ways to:
leave the house
return home evenings
make home life more interesting after 2, 4, 7, 12 years
be the person who works to pay for the artist
be the artist who hearts the worker
get the trustafarian to focus
get the depressed Seattlite to focus
get the mid-life crisisee to focus
respect and reimburse the partner who cooks and cooks well
and many more aspects I'm overlooking, including parenting.
leave the house
return home evenings
make home life more interesting after 2, 4, 7, 12 years
be the person who works to pay for the artist
be the artist who hearts the worker
get the trustafarian to focus
get the depressed Seattlite to focus
get the mid-life crisisee to focus
respect and reimburse the partner who cooks and cooks well
and many more aspects I'm overlooking, including parenting.
66
@8 - If you did, then you'd be an asshole that's not worth marrying.
The fact that she thought enough to write this letter and question the status quo says something grand about her character.
The fact that she thought enough to write this letter and question the status quo says something grand about her character.
67
There is no reason on earth for either of a couple without children to be a "stay-at-home" anything. Because he's out of work now doesn't mean she should accept that he'll be home dusting the rest of their life. Indeed, she should examine what he's doing with his time now. If he's not spending at least 3/4 time looking for a job but instead is depressed and sitting around his parents' home, then forget the marriage for now. He'd just sit around her home and fall into hostile dependence. Ick.
68
Whats love got to do with it? -- (the song)
Had twenty good years together - he was a dishwasher when we met, fresh out of the Navy. I had just dumped the mainstream to come out and take on a whole new track for my life.
Nothing was easy, so what. The only thing worth hearing, do you love each other.
Most of the comments here are from cold minded middle class clones, who will never be really happy with anyone cause they are hard core materialists and sadly think their life is a resume for someone to admire. That life is a formula rather than an experience in progress, their very own experience.
Love. The word is simple. You love each other go for it. The details will sort out.
The one thread in some comments that is spot on is that this is a different era and a different city - do what you want. Freedom and love count and can be all you need. Indeed.
(He died of AIDS - twenty good years is my memory, jobs, no jobs, lots of money and dead broke. It was all there. What more than love? Need nothing else if it is real.)
Had twenty good years together - he was a dishwasher when we met, fresh out of the Navy. I had just dumped the mainstream to come out and take on a whole new track for my life.
Nothing was easy, so what. The only thing worth hearing, do you love each other.
Most of the comments here are from cold minded middle class clones, who will never be really happy with anyone cause they are hard core materialists and sadly think their life is a resume for someone to admire. That life is a formula rather than an experience in progress, their very own experience.
Love. The word is simple. You love each other go for it. The details will sort out.
The one thread in some comments that is spot on is that this is a different era and a different city - do what you want. Freedom and love count and can be all you need. Indeed.
(He died of AIDS - twenty good years is my memory, jobs, no jobs, lots of money and dead broke. It was all there. What more than love? Need nothing else if it is real.)
69
I think she's being cautious and following her instincts. And despite Dan's plea for her to ignore social mores, the fact is most women DO want a man who makes more than she does. Every woman wants to look at work as something they can just stop doing in order to raise a family - and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm forever grateful my father was such a good bread-winner that he could support my mother and 5 siblings on his salary alone. A man who can't support himself is a huge red flag she needs to pay attention to. Besides, they're both young enough they have plenty of time to find better partners.
DT Lazy MFA. Unless he's well hung.
DT Lazy MFA. Unless he's well hung.
71
I think, because it's sort of ambiguous what's really behind YT's concerns, that everyone here is taking their own personal biases and applying them to her situation.
Like, @70, is she really talking about money? Maybe ("gainfully employed" might be a clue). But, maybe she's not worried about him making money and is instead worried about what is he going to do with his life now? How will this change him? Does it reveal anything new about the type of person he is (how he handles adversity, etc.)? Does the fact that it's been 8 months mean the economy really sucks or that he's actually a slacker?
Speaking from my own personal bias, when my husband was out of work for a few months a couple years back, he became a much different person to be around. We had been together a long time, so I felt like I knew who he really was and that we'd be fine, but if it was a relatively new relationship (a year and change isn't really that long) I might have faltered a bit in terms of my thinking about our future. I could've cared less about the money, but if those were the primary signals I was getting about his personality, well, I might have been a little less sure of the future.
So, maybe that's where YT is coming from. Or, maybe she's money-obsessed and materialistic. Whatever.
Like, @70, is she really talking about money? Maybe ("gainfully employed" might be a clue). But, maybe she's not worried about him making money and is instead worried about what is he going to do with his life now? How will this change him? Does it reveal anything new about the type of person he is (how he handles adversity, etc.)? Does the fact that it's been 8 months mean the economy really sucks or that he's actually a slacker?
Speaking from my own personal bias, when my husband was out of work for a few months a couple years back, he became a much different person to be around. We had been together a long time, so I felt like I knew who he really was and that we'd be fine, but if it was a relatively new relationship (a year and change isn't really that long) I might have faltered a bit in terms of my thinking about our future. I could've cared less about the money, but if those were the primary signals I was getting about his personality, well, I might have been a little less sure of the future.
So, maybe that's where YT is coming from. Or, maybe she's money-obsessed and materialistic. Whatever.
72
I hope he finds this letter, realizes its her and dumps her ass. She obviously doesn't love him very much.
74
@41: Yeah, it's an economic reality that one-career families are in a much more precarious position nowadays.
Of course I'm not suggesting married people divorce their unemployed spouses. Julie's posts above capture my concern about the writer's present situation. But if my spouse couldn't find a job in the finance field after 8 months, even in this economy, I would strongly suggest he go back to school to retrain for a career that is more in demand but uses the same skill set (e.g., biostatistics, if he is a financial analyst).
Of course I'm not suggesting married people divorce their unemployed spouses. Julie's posts above capture my concern about the writer's present situation. But if my spouse couldn't find a job in the finance field after 8 months, even in this economy, I would strongly suggest he go back to school to retrain for a career that is more in demand but uses the same skill set (e.g., biostatistics, if he is a financial analyst).
75
Marriage as a social institution may be about love, commitment, and family, but marriage as a legal contract is all about money (and children, if any). A responsible person, especially one wealthy enough to buy a house, must consider both aspects of marriage before taking the plunge.
Questions to consider: Do I want to give this person power of attorney? Survivor rights? If we break up, what will happen to the house? And of course, most important: are we in love? Do we have the kind of relationship that has the potential to last 10, 40, 70 years?
Of course, it may be better to be irresponsible and impulsive. Plenty of successful marriages start with love at first sight and a shotgun wedding.
Questions to consider: Do I want to give this person power of attorney? Survivor rights? If we break up, what will happen to the house? And of course, most important: are we in love? Do we have the kind of relationship that has the potential to last 10, 40, 70 years?
Of course, it may be better to be irresponsible and impulsive. Plenty of successful marriages start with love at first sight and a shotgun wedding.
76
What's the big hurry to get married? Because friends (and maybe the guy) are "hinting"? Wha? If he's out of work, it's probably a bad time to have children. If he has qualms about living together now, why would that change once you're married? And personally, I would never marry someone I hadn't lived with for a good long time. If you want to make a gesture, invite him to live with you until he gets back on his feet. If things are still great in another year, then think about marriage.
77
@71 I guess I can't speak for this lady's true concerns... No one can, really, from a simple letter. But I put myself in her place, and that's what I deduced.
She's been dating this guy before and after he lost his job. She probably would have been able to pick up some signals about his personality by now, even if they weren't living in the same house. Three months out of the gate probably would be long enough to figure out what's going on, and how he's reacting.
But hey, that's just me. I truly don't think this is a psychological thing - it's a money thing. Her comments were along the line of, "He's great, but he's not working." Not, "I smell marijuana in his room all the time, and he's getting moody," or "I want to wait until he gets a job so we can pay for the ceremony."
She's been dating this guy before and after he lost his job. She probably would have been able to pick up some signals about his personality by now, even if they weren't living in the same house. Three months out of the gate probably would be long enough to figure out what's going on, and how he's reacting.
But hey, that's just me. I truly don't think this is a psychological thing - it's a money thing. Her comments were along the line of, "He's great, but he's not working." Not, "I smell marijuana in his room all the time, and he's getting moody," or "I want to wait until he gets a job so we can pay for the ceremony."
78
Don't marry him.
As hard as it would have been to believe at the time, I'm grateful for being laid off. I was deep in a relationship (two years), rapidly approaching marriage with all the romantic talk back and forth and commitments of undying love and support. I was laid off and within two weeks she was going out more, traveling a lot up to NYC, and getting a little too close for comfort with a mutual friend. I did the modern man thing and brought up how this was a difficult time and I needed to feel like she was there for me; she called me too sensitive. I never took money from her (or needed to, I'm a good saver plus unemployment) and was hunting furiously for jobs (three whole interviews in two months). Three months after I got laid off I caught a lucky break and found a job with a higher salary and in that time also applied to school which I now go to at night.
Having seen what life would be like if we hit a rough patch and how little I could count on her, I dumped her. I know I would never have acted that way towards a person I claim to love, she was my first priority for everything. Too bad she didn't feel the same.
YT if you're feeling ambivalent, he probably senses that. Do him a favor, don't marry him. You would know if it wasn't a problem - hell you wouldn't have a question in the first place. It's a problem and he likely doesn't want to be with someone who can't be relied on when the going gets real tough.
As hard as it would have been to believe at the time, I'm grateful for being laid off. I was deep in a relationship (two years), rapidly approaching marriage with all the romantic talk back and forth and commitments of undying love and support. I was laid off and within two weeks she was going out more, traveling a lot up to NYC, and getting a little too close for comfort with a mutual friend. I did the modern man thing and brought up how this was a difficult time and I needed to feel like she was there for me; she called me too sensitive. I never took money from her (or needed to, I'm a good saver plus unemployment) and was hunting furiously for jobs (three whole interviews in two months). Three months after I got laid off I caught a lucky break and found a job with a higher salary and in that time also applied to school which I now go to at night.
Having seen what life would be like if we hit a rough patch and how little I could count on her, I dumped her. I know I would never have acted that way towards a person I claim to love, she was my first priority for everything. Too bad she didn't feel the same.
YT if you're feeling ambivalent, he probably senses that. Do him a favor, don't marry him. You would know if it wasn't a problem - hell you wouldn't have a question in the first place. It's a problem and he likely doesn't want to be with someone who can't be relied on when the going gets real tough.
80
uh, we're in a RECESSION/DEPRESSION motherfuckers...THERE ARE NO JOBS!!! Unless the guy is not trying at all and being a jerk, cut him some slack, (and even if he is not trying very hard, is it because he's depressed?)
They shouldn't get married because obviously she's not invested in the whole "for better or WORSE" part of the ceremony. And a lot of you ARE being sexist...if it was a guy writing this letter about his unemployed girlfriend, you'd be all over his ass for being a sexist, selfish jerk. The media loves printing stories about evil husbands who dump their wives when they get sick; this isn't much different.
He should dump HER for being unsupportive.
They shouldn't get married because obviously she's not invested in the whole "for better or WORSE" part of the ceremony. And a lot of you ARE being sexist...if it was a guy writing this letter about his unemployed girlfriend, you'd be all over his ass for being a sexist, selfish jerk. The media loves printing stories about evil husbands who dump their wives when they get sick; this isn't much different.
He should dump HER for being unsupportive.
81
oh, and she can afford to buy a house, by herself, in this economy?!?!?
WTF!?!?!
It doesn't say where she lives, but unless you live in Detroit or Flint, houses are expensive and credit is tough to get. If she can get financed on a single person's salary, she's making some decent money and can afford the expense of a husband for a few months until the economy improves and he can get a job.
WTF!?!?!
It doesn't say where she lives, but unless you live in Detroit or Flint, houses are expensive and credit is tough to get. If she can get financed on a single person's salary, she's making some decent money and can afford the expense of a husband for a few months until the economy improves and he can get a job.
82
Re. 69
You wrote that "Every woman wants to look at work as something they can just stop doing in order to raise a family." This is NOT an accurate statement!
1. Some women don't want a family
2. Some women who want a family don't want to be home-makers
3. Some people want to (GASP!) share the raising of children.
Like you, I grew up in a household where the man was the breadwinner and the woman stayed home and raised children. But you know what? It would have been nice to see my dad rather than just get money from him.
I am a PREGNANT woman who loves my job. I am not planning "just stopping" my job so that I can finally live the real dream of raising children! I can be a mother and a worker, and my husband can be a father and a worker.
You wrote that "Every woman wants to look at work as something they can just stop doing in order to raise a family." This is NOT an accurate statement!
1. Some women don't want a family
2. Some women who want a family don't want to be home-makers
3. Some people want to (GASP!) share the raising of children.
Like you, I grew up in a household where the man was the breadwinner and the woman stayed home and raised children. But you know what? It would have been nice to see my dad rather than just get money from him.
I am a PREGNANT woman who loves my job. I am not planning "just stopping" my job so that I can finally live the real dream of raising children! I can be a mother and a worker, and my husband can be a father and a worker.
83
I realize that financial issues are the #1 stated reason marriages break up, but I have to agree with with @34. i.e. what If you'd married him 7 months before he was laid off instead of 7 months after?
Also: what about the GUY? Commenters seem to have limitless venom (or pity) for him, but he's seemingly got the same opinions as they do. Unless the letter-writer has left some important things out, he doesn't seem to be content with his job-situation. He doesn't even want to move IN until he's employed again- in all likelihood he's not chomping at the bit to marry her now, either, and forcing the question may solidify the power-imbalances everyone here seems to fear.
It sounds like he's (understandably) depressed and self-conscious about his situation, and I'd encourage her to use the same caution as one would when proposing to someone in the midst of a psychological depression (or, I guess, following the stereotypes proliferating in this thread, proposing to a girl while she's feeling especially bad about recent weight gain?) This is not going to "cure the problem", it could theoretically "enable" it, and it would probably be a better idea to delay until both of you are feeling healthy & strong before making this kind of commitment. (unless, I guess, you've both decided to do it to get him on your medical insurance).
Also: what about the GUY? Commenters seem to have limitless venom (or pity) for him, but he's seemingly got the same opinions as they do. Unless the letter-writer has left some important things out, he doesn't seem to be content with his job-situation. He doesn't even want to move IN until he's employed again- in all likelihood he's not chomping at the bit to marry her now, either, and forcing the question may solidify the power-imbalances everyone here seems to fear.
It sounds like he's (understandably) depressed and self-conscious about his situation, and I'd encourage her to use the same caution as one would when proposing to someone in the midst of a psychological depression (or, I guess, following the stereotypes proliferating in this thread, proposing to a girl while she's feeling especially bad about recent weight gain?) This is not going to "cure the problem", it could theoretically "enable" it, and it would probably be a better idea to delay until both of you are feeling healthy & strong before making this kind of commitment. (unless, I guess, you've both decided to do it to get him on your medical insurance).
84
Wow… I just kind of wrote what I was thinking at the time without expecting it to be posted/getting any response… Thanks.
I am “YT” and maybe I am an asshole…??
I do work hard and I do my best to succeed. What I want is an equal partner in life/marriage… I don’t need a BF/husband that makes more $ than me but I would like an equal partner in life. Maybe it’s because of my more or less conservative background – I was raised in GA and my parents were the traditional father/breadwinner mother/housewife role. I don’t mind supporting my BF for a time but I don’t want to forever either. What if something happened to me where I couldn’t work or I wanted to take off time to raise kids? How can I tell if someone would and could provide for me if need be? Yeah, I’m scared as hell about putting all of my faith in someone who, for the time being, can’t provide for me. It’s not like he wouldn’t or never can though. He’s trying to find something. But right now he CAN’T. So, what does it mean if I don’t want to move forward right now?
And, yeah, I do care about what other people think and say. That’s probably why I am writing this to begin with. I want to do the right thing and make people hapy w me…that’s a whole other story though…To @ 72 who thinks he should could dump my MFA … I tell my BF everything. He knows about this, my doubts, my questions… I am transparent w him.
That’s it.
I am “YT” and maybe I am an asshole…??
I do work hard and I do my best to succeed. What I want is an equal partner in life/marriage… I don’t need a BF/husband that makes more $ than me but I would like an equal partner in life. Maybe it’s because of my more or less conservative background – I was raised in GA and my parents were the traditional father/breadwinner mother/housewife role. I don’t mind supporting my BF for a time but I don’t want to forever either. What if something happened to me where I couldn’t work or I wanted to take off time to raise kids? How can I tell if someone would and could provide for me if need be? Yeah, I’m scared as hell about putting all of my faith in someone who, for the time being, can’t provide for me. It’s not like he wouldn’t or never can though. He’s trying to find something. But right now he CAN’T. So, what does it mean if I don’t want to move forward right now?
And, yeah, I do care about what other people think and say. That’s probably why I am writing this to begin with. I want to do the right thing and make people hapy w me…that’s a whole other story though…To @ 72 who thinks he should could dump my MFA … I tell my BF everything. He knows about this, my doubts, my questions… I am transparent w him.
That’s it.
85
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned....depending on where you live, the salaries of both partners at the time of marriage as well as at the time of divorce are taken into account when determining alimony (should they split).
86
Don't marry him unless you can ACTUALLY get over it, YT. If you just tell yourself you ought to get over it, and think about how you want to get over it, you won't get over it and you'll resent him and shit will get bad.
You gotta be honest with yourself about whether or not you can deal. Outdated double standard or not, if it's in your brain indelibly, I think you probably just have to roll with it and let the guy go, at least for now.
You gotta be honest with yourself about whether or not you can deal. Outdated double standard or not, if it's in your brain indelibly, I think you probably just have to roll with it and let the guy go, at least for now.
87
My Stepdad has been unemployed about 13-15 years of the 17 year marriage to my Mom. He doesn't even do the housework. They are about to lose everything (probably this very month).
I think it doesn't hurt to wait if you have the slightest doubt.
I think it doesn't hurt to wait if you have the slightest doubt.
88
YT, not sure what everyone else has said because I didn't get a chance to read them all. There is absolutely nothing wrong with weighing all these factors before making one of the biggest decisions of your life. Your friends say..."why wait" but really what is the big friggin' deal with waiting a bit until things are settled, etc. and you are more sure of the situation. Presumably, if you're really in love with the guy...it's not going to evaporate just because you didn't get married ASAP. Just because you don't want to get married NOW doesn't mean you're never going to want to get married to the guy. It took me a long time to realize that just because I feel a certain way NOW at this particular moment in time, doesn't mean I'll feel that same way in the future or even 5 minutes from now. Feelings change based on experience and evidence and usually the only way you can get either of items is with a little time. To me, and I could be crazy, marriage should be looked at as the next step in a relationship, not the be all end all of a relationship. Some of us are just more pragmatic by nature too...we don't base our decisions on whimsy or fly by the seat of our pants. Don't rush, trust your instinct and eventually the right answer will reveal itself. In the end, the most important thing is making sure you're totally comfortable with your decision. It sounds like you're already on the right track with being totally upfront with your bf. Good luck!
89
Whether or not you end up popping the proverbial question, YT, I'd say the most important thing for the BF to know right now is that you love him, as he is, right now (assuming you do). That no matter what happens you're glad to be with him. That you don't see him not as an unemployed deadbeat but as a wonderful and decent man.
As far as whether he's an equal partner or someone you end up supporting for the rest of your life, that has as much to do with attitude as it does cash flow. There are plenty of couples where he earned money while she kept the home and treated each other as partners and teammates regardless. If you end up with kids and your unemployed BF takes care of them so you can get back to work sooner, you're both working hard so that as a team you can pull in more cash.
As far as whether he's an equal partner or someone you end up supporting for the rest of your life, that has as much to do with attitude as it does cash flow. There are plenty of couples where he earned money while she kept the home and treated each other as partners and teammates regardless. If you end up with kids and your unemployed BF takes care of them so you can get back to work sooner, you're both working hard so that as a team you can pull in more cash.
90
YT, you're 27 years old. What on earth is the rush? Give it a little more time, wait for the economy to pick up a little. See if he makes a real effort to market himself/improve his employability or whatever when there are actually jobs out there. Why do you need to make a decision now?
91
"Women are still discriminated against—even though such discrimination is illegal—but women compete and women win."
Dan, if I didn't love you already, you'd have won me over with that one.
Dan, if I didn't love you already, you'd have won me over with that one.
92
Is there a place, a link, where you can get the letter of the day? I'd like to read past letters but all I see are "most commented." A little help, anyone? Thanks.
93
84/YT: What I want is an equal partner in life/marriage… I don’t need a BF/husband that makes more $ than me but I would like an equal partner in life. . . I don’t mind supporting my BF for a time but I don’t want to forever either. What if something happened to me where I couldn’t work or I wanted to take off time to raise kids? How can I tell if someone would and could provide for me if need be? Yeah, I’m scared as hell about putting all of my faith in someone who, for the time being, can’t provide for me.
Although it's not true what 69 wrote, that "Every woman wants to look at work as something they can just stop doing in order to raise a family" , it is true that a lot of women who are planning on having kids want that option for themselves, so they view the guy in the traditional provider role. (With the exception of those women who really believe in equality, women hate tradition when it benefits men but embrace it when it benefits them.)
From your follow-on comments here, it sounds to me like a big part of the reason why you're reluctant to marry him is not because he's unemployed per se, but because you don't know how much money he's going to be making at the next job he gets and you require him (or any man) to be financially equal to you. So it seems like money might very well be the issue, as a number of people thought.
If that's the case, you're certainly not alone. If you surveyed people, I have no doubt that you'd find men far more willing to marry a woman making less money than women willing to marry a man making less money.
Although it's not true what 69 wrote, that "Every woman wants to look at work as something they can just stop doing in order to raise a family" , it is true that a lot of women who are planning on having kids want that option for themselves, so they view the guy in the traditional provider role. (With the exception of those women who really believe in equality, women hate tradition when it benefits men but embrace it when it benefits them.)
From your follow-on comments here, it sounds to me like a big part of the reason why you're reluctant to marry him is not because he's unemployed per se, but because you don't know how much money he's going to be making at the next job he gets and you require him (or any man) to be financially equal to you. So it seems like money might very well be the issue, as a number of people thought.
If that's the case, you're certainly not alone. If you surveyed people, I have no doubt that you'd find men far more willing to marry a woman making less money than women willing to marry a man making less money.
94
71/Julie: So, maybe that's where YT is coming from. Or, maybe she's money-obsessed and materialistic.
I don't see women who require a man to make as much or more than they do as necessarily money-"obsessed" or "materialistic" (although they'd certainly qualify if they were only looking for rich guys.) You may disagree, but I see it as satisfying a deep-seated psychological need. I think most women view a man who makes more money as more "manly" and, I believer, it's similar to the psychological need of most women to be with a man who is taller than they are.
I don't see women who require a man to make as much or more than they do as necessarily money-"obsessed" or "materialistic" (although they'd certainly qualify if they were only looking for rich guys.) You may disagree, but I see it as satisfying a deep-seated psychological need. I think most women view a man who makes more money as more "manly" and, I believer, it's similar to the psychological need of most women to be with a man who is taller than they are.
95
"Yeah, I’m scared as hell about putting all of my faith in someone who, for the time being, can’t provide for me. It’s not like he wouldn’t or never can though. He’s trying to find something. But right now he CAN’T. So, what does it mean if I don’t want to move forward right now?"
It means he should leave you. Because, if he did find something, and then hit a roadblock again, you'd probably leave him once it got too inconvenient for you.
It means he should leave you. Because, if he did find something, and then hit a roadblock again, you'd probably leave him once it got too inconvenient for you.
96
I agree with Dan's logic (it's wrong to maintain a double-standard regarding spouses' incomes), I disagree with his conclusion, for a couple of reasons:
1. Just because YT doesn't want to marry a guy with no income doesn't mean ipso facto she has a sexist double-standard. Maybe she also wouldn't be comfortable in a relationship where she had no job and the man did. Or maybe she's just selfish and, not caring what abstract spouses' relative incomes are, doesn't want to have to subsidize a husband of hers just cause she's selfish. Or maybe she just prefers to start out a marriage with both individuals in relatively equal financial standing.
2. Maybe YT does have a double-standard. So what? She's not trying to legislate it. If she'd only be happy with a guy making more money than her, then let her try to find that guy. You can point out that it is becoming increasingly more difficult to do this (especially considering more women graduate from college these days), but so what? If she can't find such a guy, then whatever genes lead to her preferences will die out. Either way, it's win-win.
3. YT seems to be asking for advice because her friends (and her partner) are pressuring her to do it before she feels ready. What a terrible reason to get married! I don't think guys should get married before they're comfortable with it just because their partner or their friends are pressuring them to, and it would be a double-standard on my part to think women should. If YT's not comfortable marrying a guy without a job, then she shouldn't marry him until he's got a job, or she's no longer uncomfortable with the situation. If that means she risks losing him, then that's a calculation she'll have to make herself.
If she were already married to the guy, and wondering whether she should leave him for not having a job, then that would be different. When you get married, you make a commitment that's supposed to last through hard times (unless the hard times involve adultery). No matter how long you've been dating, though, you don't have any commitment to marry someone, or even to stick through the hard times with them. If you did have such a commitment, then what would be the point of marriage?
I'm weary of the argument template "if you loved me, you'd [insert obligation of marriage here]". A marriage obligation is only an obligation when you're married!
More...
1. Just because YT doesn't want to marry a guy with no income doesn't mean ipso facto she has a sexist double-standard. Maybe she also wouldn't be comfortable in a relationship where she had no job and the man did. Or maybe she's just selfish and, not caring what abstract spouses' relative incomes are, doesn't want to have to subsidize a husband of hers just cause she's selfish. Or maybe she just prefers to start out a marriage with both individuals in relatively equal financial standing.
2. Maybe YT does have a double-standard. So what? She's not trying to legislate it. If she'd only be happy with a guy making more money than her, then let her try to find that guy. You can point out that it is becoming increasingly more difficult to do this (especially considering more women graduate from college these days), but so what? If she can't find such a guy, then whatever genes lead to her preferences will die out. Either way, it's win-win.
3. YT seems to be asking for advice because her friends (and her partner) are pressuring her to do it before she feels ready. What a terrible reason to get married! I don't think guys should get married before they're comfortable with it just because their partner or their friends are pressuring them to, and it would be a double-standard on my part to think women should. If YT's not comfortable marrying a guy without a job, then she shouldn't marry him until he's got a job, or she's no longer uncomfortable with the situation. If that means she risks losing him, then that's a calculation she'll have to make herself.
If she were already married to the guy, and wondering whether she should leave him for not having a job, then that would be different. When you get married, you make a commitment that's supposed to last through hard times (unless the hard times involve adultery). No matter how long you've been dating, though, you don't have any commitment to marry someone, or even to stick through the hard times with them. If you did have such a commitment, then what would be the point of marriage?
I'm weary of the argument template "if you loved me, you'd [insert obligation of marriage here]". A marriage obligation is only an obligation when you're married!
97
What is marriage but a piece of paper and a self/societal-imposed mindset? Ask your boyfriend why he's against living together without being married. What good reason could there possibly be? Even if he moves in, you can continue not financially supporting him (aside from free rent) since you can manage all your bills yourself. You don't need marriage to prove to your friends that you love him, but if/when you have kids you will want a partner who can "provide", because otherwise you might as well just do it alone than supporting kids and a man by yourself. Don't rush into legally cementing your relationship.
99
OK, the HTML got stripped from the previous comment. Let's try it again like this:
slog.thestranger.com slash slog slash archives slash savage-love slash
slog.thestranger.com slash slog slash archives slash savage-love slash
100
THANK YOU #43!! The guy has already been kicked in the balls by the economy, do you really want to shit on his self-esteem by taking away more of his manhood by proposing, paying for EVERYTHING, etc? Ask him to move in with you. Tell him that you love him and want to marry him, but that you know that isn't an option right now... hint that if he asked you right now, you'd LOVE to be engaged... that you are paying for all this space anyway, and it's lonely without him... You can preserve his self-esteem and get the ball rolling on your life and relationship together.
101
It feels to me like a lot of comments are just ignoring that it's pretty human to want to start off on the right foot, or at least a better foot.
Yeah, she's nervous about starting a marriage with a guy who hasn't found a new job -- so, essentially, the marriage would start off somewhat in a hole. Not a big one, but a little one.
Why does this mean she'd dump him 20 years into their marriage if he was laid off then?
It's new at the beginning. Things are uncertain. 20 years later, they probably have savings together; they know they can rely on each other and get through things. They have that built-up capital of goodwill and trust through experience.
If they married right now, they'd spend the beginning of their marriage making up, not building.
I'm not saying her feeling here is completely rational, but it's understandable.
@94: "I think most women view a man who makes more money as more 'manly' and, I believer, it's similar to the psychological need of most women to be with a man who is taller than they are."
I don't think Julie in Eugene (or I) would disagree with you that it's some kind of psychological urge for many women.
But agreeing that it's a psychological urge doesn't change my judgment of it. Giving into your urges without thinking them over is no excuse. Indulging an irrational and sexist "psychological urge" when it's perfectly easy to do otherwise is just as materialistic as someone who coolly plots her gold-digging schemes.
Yeah, she's nervous about starting a marriage with a guy who hasn't found a new job -- so, essentially, the marriage would start off somewhat in a hole. Not a big one, but a little one.
Why does this mean she'd dump him 20 years into their marriage if he was laid off then?
It's new at the beginning. Things are uncertain. 20 years later, they probably have savings together; they know they can rely on each other and get through things. They have that built-up capital of goodwill and trust through experience.
If they married right now, they'd spend the beginning of their marriage making up, not building.
I'm not saying her feeling here is completely rational, but it's understandable.
@94: "I think most women view a man who makes more money as more 'manly' and, I believer, it's similar to the psychological need of most women to be with a man who is taller than they are."
I don't think Julie in Eugene (or I) would disagree with you that it's some kind of psychological urge for many women.
But agreeing that it's a psychological urge doesn't change my judgment of it. Giving into your urges without thinking them over is no excuse. Indulging an irrational and sexist "psychological urge" when it's perfectly easy to do otherwise is just as materialistic as someone who coolly plots her gold-digging schemes.
102
YT you should definitely leave him. You wonder how can you tell if he can provide for you in the future? No guarantees there, but his present character should tell you if he will do his best to do so. And what would happen if you couldn't work in the future? Well, if you are committed and love your partner you would both work together to get through it and support your family, no matter what it takes. From what you've told us, this seems to be your first real test as a couple and you are already looking for the exit. Also, your traditional upbringing may be harder to overcome than you realize, especially regarding his income. You mention "equality in life", does this mean he must be making at the least as much as you so you won't consider yourself supporting him?
I think you may get more sympathy for your situation here: http://www.dabagirls.com/.
I think you may get more sympathy for your situation here: http://www.dabagirls.com/.
103
You know, I started out looking at the postings on this thinking, "well, I wouldn't marry some unemployed deadbeat" and then I realized, um, my husband was on unemployment when we were actually married. I never expected him to support me; even when he's working full time, I still make almost double what he does. But I wouldn't want a partner who'd be willing to live off someone else while doing nothing particularly productive. If I'm going to work all day, every day, I expect my partner to be doing SOMETHING useful - making art, raising kids, improving his skills, working - SOMETHING other than surfing the web and sponging.
I actually love it when my husband is only working part-time, because then he takes over a lot of the household maintenance that I'd normally do. He does most of the cooking anyway, but when he's underemployed, he does the cleaning and chores and errands too, plus all the fix-it stuff that inevitably crops up when you have a house. He takes the cats to the vet and picks up packages from UPS, deals with the yardwork, all that crap. If he were just sitting there playing videogames and moaning about the employment outlook, I would not be a happy camper.
I actually love it when my husband is only working part-time, because then he takes over a lot of the household maintenance that I'd normally do. He does most of the cooking anyway, but when he's underemployed, he does the cleaning and chores and errands too, plus all the fix-it stuff that inevitably crops up when you have a house. He takes the cats to the vet and picks up packages from UPS, deals with the yardwork, all that crap. If he were just sitting there playing videogames and moaning about the employment outlook, I would not be a happy camper.
104
Why hasn't he asked her?
Maybe he doesn't really want it, or it's not the right time.
Both good reasons to not get married.
Maybe he doesn't really want it, or it's not the right time.
Both good reasons to not get married.
105
Sorry Dan, but your answer is embarrassing. You're trying so hard to show how PC and feminist you are that it's sad and pathetic. She should propose to him, she should be the breadwinner, he should be a stay at home dad. She's sexist for expecting him to have a job. Really? Today most women expect to have their own career. Most consider it essential. Why is a man or woman "sexist" for expecting the same of men? If we expect women to be independent and self sufficient, shouldn't we expect the same of men? Expecting a man to have a job is sexist? Anyway why we would encourage men to be househusbands if we're not also encouraging women to be housewives? If we're telling women to be independent, why is it wrong to tell men the same thing? I think you could be of some practical value if you were more interested in being honest rather than being trendy or politically correct, which is completely artificial and dishonest.
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