Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, January 6, 2010
Sex / Religion Ann Coulter Is Perplexed
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 4:22 PM
I somehow managed to "perplex" Ann Coulter. In her latest column at Human Events, the unmarried and presumably chaste Coulter writes about the reaction of sane people everywhere to Brit Hume's bizarre attempt to convert Tiger Woods to Christianity. She eventually gets around to me:
Most perplexing was columnist Dan Savage's indignant accusation that Hume was claiming that Christianity "offers the best deal—it gives you the get-out-of-adultery-free card that other religions just can't."In fact, that's exactly what Christianity does. It's the best deal in the universe. (I know it seems strange that a self-described atheist and "radical sex advice columnist f*****" like Savage would miss the central point of Christianity, but there it is.) God sent his only son to get the crap beaten out of him, die for our sins and rise from the dead. If you believe that, you're in. Your sins are washed away from you—sins even worse than adultery!—because of the cross.
Exactly my point, Ann—not that Jesus is the son of God and that his death somehow cleanses us of our sins. As I wrote here on Slog and pointed out on Countdown, Hume didn't urge Tiger to convert to Christianity because Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead and the rest of it. Hume said this: "I don't think that [Buddhism] offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the Christian faith. My message to Tiger would, 'Tiger, turn to the Christian faith and you can make a total recovery and be a great example to the world.'" Here's what I wrote on Slog:
Woods should become a Christian, Hume argues, not because Jesus is Lord or Christianity is the one true faith or because Christianity is the way, the truth, and the light. No, Woods should become a Christian because Christianity offers the best deal for adulterous husbands—you know, all that forgiveness and redemption and stuff that you can't get anywhere else. A Christian man can cheat on his wife with scores of tight-faced tramps and all he has to do is make a full confession and—presto!—he's forgiven! It's all good! ... The incentive to become or remain a Christian, according to Hume, is this: you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want—lie, cheat, steal, fuck around—and set a great example for the world by making a dog-and-pony show of your remorse.
So we're basically in agreement, Ann. Well, sorta. You buy—or pretend to buy—this Christianity business. (How exactly does some guy getting beaten to death by Romans redeem all of humanity?) I don't buy it—and it's not because I somehow managed to grow up in the United States without ever learning anything about this Jesus person. (Even if that were possible—and it's not—my Catholic deacon dad and Catholic lay minister mom would've made sure I was exposed to the basic tenets of the faith.) But if you're going to argue for the Christian faith, if you're going to proselytize someone at low moment in his life, an honest Christian would start with the death and resurrection, with forgiveness and eternal life—you know, "the central point of Christianity." But Hume didn't do that. Hume made a crass and purely utilitarian argument about which religion—surprise: his!—could get Tiger off the hook with his wife, sponsors, and fans.
And since when are you, Ann Coulter, shy about tossing the word faggot around?
2
Any time I hear Ann Coulter's name, I can only think of the fantastic "A Love Letter To Ann Coulter" that Henry Rollins made. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM7MR5_v4…
6
So what it boils down to is that ultra-right wing conservatives and fundies have turned the christian religion into a capitalist enterprise wherein all religions are selling the same product (sort of) but christianity offers the choiciest extra features and is therefore the best value on the free market of faith.
Wasn't there a story in the bible about Jesus whipping people like that?
Wasn't there a story in the bible about Jesus whipping people like that?
8
"Join our club, WE won't hold you responsible for your actions!"
I was just telling someone a while ago that I though maturity was the ability to take responsibility for ones mistakes. Children seem to lack this ability, generally. I guess some adult Christians seem to long for that same sort of ignorance.
I was just telling someone a while ago that I though maturity was the ability to take responsibility for ones mistakes. Children seem to lack this ability, generally. I guess some adult Christians seem to long for that same sort of ignorance.
13
Funny how she says you miss the point of Christianity, and then says you essentially got it right, that it offers exactly what you said it did.
14
Haha... While I was reading this, the f***** part didn't really make sense. It was more stars than are needed for just the 4 letters I expected. I decided that it must be the 4 letters I expected, and then "er". Boy am I an idiot faggot fucker! Thanks Dan!
This is a part that always confused me about the religion. Why not teach the basic tenets of the religion? It seems more like a bribe than anything. Do whatever you want, and ask for forgiveness. How comes this only works in the church? I can't steal someone's car and then ask for forgiveness. Jesus died for your sins, so go ahead and sin some more... F******!
This is a part that always confused me about the religion. Why not teach the basic tenets of the religion? It seems more like a bribe than anything. Do whatever you want, and ask for forgiveness. How comes this only works in the church? I can't steal someone's car and then ask for forgiveness. Jesus died for your sins, so go ahead and sin some more... F******!
15
One can only hope that God is real, so that Ann Coulter has to continually have to bask in a pool of Santorum for all of eternity. I don't care if I get a billion lashes for accepting gays and not believing in the affair-forgiving Christ, I would gladly make that trade off.
16
Ann makes the same convenient error so many 'Christians' make: she mistakes the appendix for the book. Therefore, Jesus' commandment to obey the law and all the other dicta contained in such old-timey rulebooks such as the Sermon on the Mount just don't matter - all that matters is the always available get-out-of-sin free cards helpfully provided by the post-gospel exegetes: 'Believe this and you're not guilty - even if you are!'
As a never-married serial monogamist, Ann no doubt finds this interpretation very helpful -- kind of like a free pass to the STD clinic with a lifetime supply of antibiotics.
As a never-married serial monogamist, Ann no doubt finds this interpretation very helpful -- kind of like a free pass to the STD clinic with a lifetime supply of antibiotics.
18
ann coulter is a marketing genius who realized just how much money there is to be made off the ignorant, xenophobic assholes of america
and a man. definitely a man.
and a man. definitely a man.
19
Actually it is possible "to grow up in the United States without ever learning anything about this Jesus person." My girlfriend's mom (a decade or two older than you, Dan) managed to make it to her pre-college trip to Europe without knowing what all the fuss was about (just that there was a guy named Jesus Christ, and there was a religion around him). Then she saw all the art there and started asking what was up. Yay stridently Jewish overprotective parents?
20
unfortunately, Dan is often on the same level as Ann Coulter: not too bright, full of hot air & outrage and completely juvenile.
21
Martin Luther said the church should never sell indulgences. Brit Hume agrees completely, preferring that they be comped to celebrities.
22
She got it wrong. I'm not a Christian, but even I know that Christ's material/physical suffering was an infinitesimal fraction of the metaphysical suffering he endured to take all of mankind's sins on. This is a common fallacy. Crown of thorns and crucifixion sucks, but it's a far lesser manifestation--something concrete--for the abstract notion of vast amounts of sin and suffering. Right? Right?
24
God - Please, please let Ann Coulter stay in the freakin' closet. I really prefer that the 'ros have to claim her as a part of their fucked up tribe. I really don't want the 'mos to have to claim her.
Have to also go with Kathy Griffin on this one. Who the fuck, but a slut, wears a black cocktail evening dress to a TODAY show interview?
I can only imagine who's DNA we'd find on her dresses.
Have to also go with Kathy Griffin on this one. Who the fuck, but a slut, wears a black cocktail evening dress to a TODAY show interview?
I can only imagine who's DNA we'd find on her dresses.
25
Sorry, I firmly believe that most Christians believe in God only because they are scared of death. Then they proudly embrace "Foxhole Christians." Others have asked me how I can live a moral life if I do not believe in God/Christianity. Well, because living a good life that respects others just feels right. I do not need the fear of some screwed up religion to motivate me or tell me how to do it. It seems some do.
26
But really, that's the whole point of the exercise vis-a-vis Christianity: no matter what you've done, no matter how heinous, brutal or offensive your actions, if you give your life over to Jeebuz then all your past sins are wiped away, your soul is scrubbed squeaky-clean, and you get one of the coveted Golden Tickets that puts you in the VIP line through the Pearly Gates.
I mean, when it's framed like that, who WOULDN'T take the hook to have their dirty deeds instantly erased? After all, it's not like you have to work or suffer or pay any sort of penalty, and actually you can be a complete an total asshole right up to the very moment of being saved, even if that happens a mere few seconds before you buy the farm.
I mean, when it's framed like that, who WOULDN'T take the hook to have their dirty deeds instantly erased? After all, it's not like you have to work or suffer or pay any sort of penalty, and actually you can be a complete an total asshole right up to the very moment of being saved, even if that happens a mere few seconds before you buy the farm.
27
I'm pretty sure that after death, if I'm wrong and there is actually a heaven and hell, that my pacifistic denial of their existence will at least land me on a more pleasant circle of hell than the fuax-Christian political talking heads. I'm pretty sure there will be a special hole in hell for them.
What has 72 teeth and holds back a drooling, rabid monster?
Ann Coulter's pants zipper.
What has 72 teeth and holds back a drooling, rabid monster?
Ann Coulter's pants zipper.
29
Dan, you've helped expand the American lexicon with terms like "santorum" and "saddlebacking." It's time to come up with a new meaning for "coulter."
30
If Ann is somehow, not in fact packing a dick, she must have like a 6 inch clit. With foreskin. That she pees out of. I am a grown man and I'm a bit jealous of her prodigious adam's apple. Oh yeah. And shes an idiotic shrew.
32
Ann is moralizing insincerely. I liked her bizarre performance art (calling John Edwards a "faggot") much more; there was at least some entertainment in it.
33
Hume and Savage are talking about the same thing- just with different spins on it.
Mr Hume refers to repentance. A process involving recognition that one has done wrong (and hurt others); genuine remorse and 'godly' sorrow; a commitment to turn away from and abandon the wrong behavior; restitution to injured parties where possible; and, most importantly, follow through of not repeating the wrong.
In other words it represents a sincere change in the individual and abandonment of the offending behavior.
A person in Woods' position who felt genuine remorse might welcome the chance that repentance provides, to wipe a stain and pain out of one's heart and life and a chance at a clean start. Hume offered a heartfelt invitation.
Savage crudely mischaracterizes repentance as a "get-out-of-adultery-free card" and misrepresents Hume's sincere invitation to Woods as "you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want—lie, cheat, steal, fuck around—and set a great example for the world by making a dog-and-pony show of your remorse."
Perhaps Dan actually doesn't understand.
Perhaps his parents did a really really poor job of explaining this most 'basic tenet of the faith'.
Perhaps his hatred of Christianity leaves him bitter.
Perhaps he is just being crude and course and hateful and willfully misrepresenting Hume's invitation and the principle of repentance.
Whatever it is, this incident speaks volumes about both men.
Mr Hume refers to repentance. A process involving recognition that one has done wrong (and hurt others); genuine remorse and 'godly' sorrow; a commitment to turn away from and abandon the wrong behavior; restitution to injured parties where possible; and, most importantly, follow through of not repeating the wrong.
In other words it represents a sincere change in the individual and abandonment of the offending behavior.
A person in Woods' position who felt genuine remorse might welcome the chance that repentance provides, to wipe a stain and pain out of one's heart and life and a chance at a clean start. Hume offered a heartfelt invitation.
Savage crudely mischaracterizes repentance as a "get-out-of-adultery-free card" and misrepresents Hume's sincere invitation to Woods as "you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want—lie, cheat, steal, fuck around—and set a great example for the world by making a dog-and-pony show of your remorse."
Perhaps Dan actually doesn't understand.
Perhaps his parents did a really really poor job of explaining this most 'basic tenet of the faith'.
Perhaps his hatred of Christianity leaves him bitter.
Perhaps he is just being crude and course and hateful and willfully misrepresenting Hume's invitation and the principle of repentance.
Whatever it is, this incident speaks volumes about both men.
34
Ann is with the Yes Men. Really.
Every time she opens her mouth she discredits everything she (pretends to) stand for. Right? She can't be for real.
Every time she opens her mouth she discredits everything she (pretends to) stand for. Right? She can't be for real.
35
I assumed she'd written out the ***** before I clicked through. That said, I was with you apart from the "(How exactly does some guy getting beaten to death by Romans redeem all of humanity?)" bit. Come on, Dan, you know better. As someone who is close to a lot of Christians, I was with you in this post, and am usually with you- apart from these little jabs.
36
Epic win.
Heaven forbid Tiger Woods follow Buddhism, a religion that believes in personal accountability for one's own actions! He just may have an incentive to clean up his act! Better become a Christian and get that handy-dandy "Get out of Hell free" card.
Heaven forbid Tiger Woods follow Buddhism, a religion that believes in personal accountability for one's own actions! He just may have an incentive to clean up his act! Better become a Christian and get that handy-dandy "Get out of Hell free" card.
38
Coulter: God sent his only son to get the crap beaten out of him, die for our sins and rise from the dead. If you believe that, you're in. Your sins are washed away from you—sins even worse than adultery!—because of the cross.
April 30, 1945 The Pearly Gates...
God: "Adolf! So WONDERFUL to see you! Welcome! Welcome! [big bear hug from God.] You look GREAT...well, except for all that blood on your right temple, but we can clean that up later. So, you've been busy the past few years, I see, killing over ten million people. That really wasn't a very nice thing to do, Adolf, but once you accepted my son as your personal savior in that bunker, all is forgiven! Come, let us get you a nice hot bath and a monogrammed robe."
April 30, 1945 The Pearly Gates...
God: "Adolf! So WONDERFUL to see you! Welcome! Welcome! [big bear hug from God.] You look GREAT...well, except for all that blood on your right temple, but we can clean that up later. So, you've been busy the past few years, I see, killing over ten million people. That really wasn't a very nice thing to do, Adolf, but once you accepted my son as your personal savior in that bunker, all is forgiven! Come, let us get you a nice hot bath and a monogrammed robe."
40
Does using Hitler as a strawman violate Godwin's Law?
That's a tough one.
@38, that was still some funny shit.
That's a tough one.
@38, that was still some funny shit.
41
Ann Coulter HAS to be faking it. She reads exactly like a frustrated leftist when they're being facetious and making fun of right wingers. I'm waiting for the day that she just up and announces "Surprise! I've just been saying the craziest shit I can think of for these past whatever years, and my god are you all a bunch of idiots for buying into it!"
42
Y'know, every time a Conservative-Christian, Gay-bashing, proselytizing twattish types say someone like Dan (or even myself) doesn't understand the central idea of Christianity, one part of me chuckles, and another facepalms.
Do they really not realize that many of us degenerative atheists were raised Christian?
Oh, wait, it's not True-Kinda-Sorta-Not-Really-What's-In-The-Bible Christianity.
Do they really not realize that many of us degenerative atheists were raised Christian?
Oh, wait, it's not True-Kinda-Sorta-Not-Really-What's-In-The-Bible Christianity.
43
39 & 40, you're too kind. 40, I wasn't familiar with Godwin's Law.
It's hilarious...thanks for clueing me in.
I'm sure Christian theologians have had debates about whether Hitler, or any other mega-mass-murderers, would go to their Christian "Heaven" or "Hell" if they "accepted Jesus as their savior."
41, I don't think she's faking any core beliefs, but she's being provocative and outrageous (maybe that's what you meant by "faking".) I'm sure she loves getting under the skin of lefties.
It's hilarious...thanks for clueing me in.
I'm sure Christian theologians have had debates about whether Hitler, or any other mega-mass-murderers, would go to their Christian "Heaven" or "Hell" if they "accepted Jesus as their savior."
41, I don't think she's faking any core beliefs, but she's being provocative and outrageous (maybe that's what you meant by "faking".) I'm sure she loves getting under the skin of lefties.
44
Does Buddhism not have an anti-defamation league of some kind?
Listen: "The Buddha taught that humans suffer because we continually strive after things that do not give lasting happiness." I found that on the Internet somewhere.
It seems to me that if Tiger would only look more deeply into his Buddhist faith, he would realize that his troubles are the result of his own pursuit of things that don't bring true happiness.
Sure, Christianity will get him forgiven for his 12 mistresses or whatever. But what then? Christians re-offend at an alarming rate, because they don't have the keys to release from the treadmill of desire and karma. Which Buddhism just so happens to be all about.
Listen: "The Buddha taught that humans suffer because we continually strive after things that do not give lasting happiness." I found that on the Internet somewhere.
It seems to me that if Tiger would only look more deeply into his Buddhist faith, he would realize that his troubles are the result of his own pursuit of things that don't bring true happiness.
Sure, Christianity will get him forgiven for his 12 mistresses or whatever. But what then? Christians re-offend at an alarming rate, because they don't have the keys to release from the treadmill of desire and karma. Which Buddhism just so happens to be all about.
45
I believe that Ann Coulter's goal is not to debate or even to present an argument for any particular idea / ideology. I believe that his goal is to be NOTICED. Dan, you gave him power by responding. If everyone just ignored him, he would collapse in upon himself with an anticlimactic hiss & rattle. I believe that the entity called Ann Coulter exists only because we pay attention to him.
I realize that this comment just adds fuel for him to feed on but I wonder if you've considered making it a policy of just not seeing him, Dan. If you didn't bring attention to his commentary, we could fill the headspace with productive thoughts.
I realize that this comment just adds fuel for him to feed on but I wonder if you've considered making it a policy of just not seeing him, Dan. If you didn't bring attention to his commentary, we could fill the headspace with productive thoughts.
47
Reading Coulter's quotation made me think of the character in the film of Stephen King's story "The Mist," the woman in the grocery store who starts to proselytize and gradually persuades most of the fearful, vulnerable people holed up in the store to rally against the few people who were actually rational and trying to solve their problem intelligently. Basically, she wigged out and brought almost everybody with her, to a very ugly and prejudiced position.
I've always understood religion as a private matter, and my multi-faith, Rockefeller Republican parents raised me to be respectful and tolerant of all religions. I left that party a long time ago, but it makes me crazy how Coulter and others have hijacked it with their cross.
I've always understood religion as a private matter, and my multi-faith, Rockefeller Republican parents raised me to be respectful and tolerant of all religions. I left that party a long time ago, but it makes me crazy how Coulter and others have hijacked it with their cross.
48
Yep, religion is a license to be an asshole.
But, see, you don't *need* a license. You can be an asshole all you want. But you shouldn't, if only because when your assholery becomes known, you will have a tougher time in the world. Even if your assholery doesn't rise to the level of "criminal" -- where we actually remove you from society -- the individuals around you will make your life harder than it would be had you not been an asshole. People will not respect you or your opinions, because they know that you have the capacity to be cruel and exploitative and lazy and self-indulgent and all the things that mark you out as an asshole. People won't come to your aid when you need them unless you pay them to...
Oh, wait... I'm completely wrong.
We've set up an economic and political system where the assholes get most of the money (Coulter) and power (Bushes), frequently by exploiting religion (both). So the rich assholes are able to effectively purchase "outs" for the social karma that should visit itself upon them for their assholery, and the poor get religion, which makes them feel like they got the same deal (to the point that they'll feel guilty for needing some of the meager help our society provides for people who need help). And they all get to exploit our society like a virus exploits the ridiculously unintelligently designed way our DNA replicates.
Damn.
But, see, you don't *need* a license. You can be an asshole all you want. But you shouldn't, if only because when your assholery becomes known, you will have a tougher time in the world. Even if your assholery doesn't rise to the level of "criminal" -- where we actually remove you from society -- the individuals around you will make your life harder than it would be had you not been an asshole. People will not respect you or your opinions, because they know that you have the capacity to be cruel and exploitative and lazy and self-indulgent and all the things that mark you out as an asshole. People won't come to your aid when you need them unless you pay them to...
Oh, wait... I'm completely wrong.
We've set up an economic and political system where the assholes get most of the money (Coulter) and power (Bushes), frequently by exploiting religion (both). So the rich assholes are able to effectively purchase "outs" for the social karma that should visit itself upon them for their assholery, and the poor get religion, which makes them feel like they got the same deal (to the point that they'll feel guilty for needing some of the meager help our society provides for people who need help). And they all get to exploit our society like a virus exploits the ridiculously unintelligently designed way our DNA replicates.
Damn.
49
If, and that being a huge if, there is some kind of god out there that created even the idea of the "10 commandments" I would assume he would have very little leeway on exactly how much rope you're given in the whole forgiveness thing. I would bet that serial killers, even if they 'repent' right before death, would not be given a pass because they said they are sorry. Maybe that's the kind of god they want to believe in, and that's fine, but at some point it stop resembling religion and looks more like a game of monopoly where every space has been replaced with a get out of jail free card. Who would want to play that game?
Maybe to put it into terms crazy people could understand, if Osama got on the internet box and claimed he found Jesus and would like to move to New York to start a new life would any Christian come to his defense? If Jesus has this magical power to cure any wrong doing certainly, in this crazy scenario, we would expect to see Coulter admit that Osama would go to heaven because he found Jesus.
Maybe to put it into terms crazy people could understand, if Osama got on the internet box and claimed he found Jesus and would like to move to New York to start a new life would any Christian come to his defense? If Jesus has this magical power to cure any wrong doing certainly, in this crazy scenario, we would expect to see Coulter admit that Osama would go to heaven because he found Jesus.
50
Yep, Ann is a Christian, behaves like a Christian, and throws the word "faggot" around like a Christian.
Unlike Jesus, who was a Jew.
Unlike Jesus, who was a Jew.
52
It's not like it's all that difficult to confuse Coulter. While she is good for entertainment value, she's not the brightest bulb in the box.
On the whole Jesus and forgiveness thing. Why would an omnipotent god need to create a son, and sacrifice that son just to change god's own rules? Why would God, for thousands of years before Jesus, not have provided people with such forgiveness, and why would he suddenly need to change his perfect rules?
On the whole Jesus and forgiveness thing. Why would an omnipotent god need to create a son, and sacrifice that son just to change god's own rules? Why would God, for thousands of years before Jesus, not have provided people with such forgiveness, and why would he suddenly need to change his perfect rules?
53
Ann Coulter seems to me to be a type of modern day Pharisee. In saying that I don't mean a hypocrite, I think the Pharisees have a received an unfair, poor reputation. It is important to remember the social climate that existed when Jesus had his ministry: Foreign domination by Rome, extreme double taxation (Rome and temple tax), etc. it was a time of extreme social crisis that led to the war of CE (AD) 66-70. In such a social climate the Jewish people sought to separate themselves from their oppressors and one way was by the "politics of holiness", and the Pharisees were a big part of that. In their devotion they promoted emphasis on holiness as a means of separation from Rome. The "politics of holiness" became the conventional wisdom of the day that led to further fragmentation of the Jewish social world and further antagonized Rome. The Pharisaic circles produced some of the noblest saints in Judaism. To see them as hypocrites is a an injustice.
That is how I see Coulter, deeply devoted and wishing to radicalize the ministry of Jesus and his message in the direction of holiness. That worship is an observance to holiness. Which is what Paul's letters encourage to some extent, not surprising since he was trained as a Pharisee himself.
I find it sad, that Coulter's public persona doesn't illuminate the "politics of compassion". Seeing that Jesus' teachings openly challenged the "politics of holiness", that he taught and saw God as compassionate and that society should be inclusive, accepting, loving, and peaceful. For Jesus, worship was centering on God, who was compassionate, and purity was achieved through the heart's inner attitudes not through outward compliance. It was then, and still is now, a radical concept, sadly.
That said, I don't care for her opinions.
More...
That is how I see Coulter, deeply devoted and wishing to radicalize the ministry of Jesus and his message in the direction of holiness. That worship is an observance to holiness. Which is what Paul's letters encourage to some extent, not surprising since he was trained as a Pharisee himself.
I find it sad, that Coulter's public persona doesn't illuminate the "politics of compassion". Seeing that Jesus' teachings openly challenged the "politics of holiness", that he taught and saw God as compassionate and that society should be inclusive, accepting, loving, and peaceful. For Jesus, worship was centering on God, who was compassionate, and purity was achieved through the heart's inner attitudes not through outward compliance. It was then, and still is now, a radical concept, sadly.
That said, I don't care for her opinions.
55
@53
Do you agree that Repentance is a "get-out-of-adultery-free card" and "you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want—lie, cheat, steal, fuck around—and set a great example for the world by making a dog-and-pony show of your remorse"?
Do you agree that Repentance is a "get-out-of-adultery-free card" and "you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want—lie, cheat, steal, fuck around—and set a great example for the world by making a dog-and-pony show of your remorse"?
56
Samual: Repentance - as you described it in your post @33 - "involving recognition that one has done wrong.. genuine remorse.. a sincere change in the individual and abandonment of the offending behavior," - in no way requires that the penitent be a Christian. Which is what Hume, and later Coulter, seem to be implying.
Why does Tiger have to convert in order to feel remorse, make restitution, and resolve not to do it again? I'm pretty sure Buddhists can do that too.
Why does Tiger have to convert in order to feel remorse, make restitution, and resolve not to do it again? I'm pretty sure Buddhists can do that too.
58
Samual @ 55,
No. To me repent has the same meaning it had for the Jewish people. Repent as found in the Jewish scriptures and by Jesus means to return or turn, and referred primarily to a change in Israel's collective life, and not just to a change in an individuals life. Return to being God centered, turn from outward compliance that makes your worship a white washed tomb. Return to justice and compassion. Repenting involves recognizing the need to return, a committed desire to return and to turn away from that which pulls you away, which involves feelings of remorse.
Sadly, many feel that repentance is insincere amongst Christians. Perhaps it is because Christianity has become (to many) synonymous with the "politics of holiness" which some of the loudest of the devout seem unable to maintain, rather than being synonymous with the "politics of compassion" it is supposed to be founded on? Just a hypothesis.
No. To me repent has the same meaning it had for the Jewish people. Repent as found in the Jewish scriptures and by Jesus means to return or turn, and referred primarily to a change in Israel's collective life, and not just to a change in an individuals life. Return to being God centered, turn from outward compliance that makes your worship a white washed tomb. Return to justice and compassion. Repenting involves recognizing the need to return, a committed desire to return and to turn away from that which pulls you away, which involves feelings of remorse.
Sadly, many feel that repentance is insincere amongst Christians. Perhaps it is because Christianity has become (to many) synonymous with the "politics of holiness" which some of the loudest of the devout seem unable to maintain, rather than being synonymous with the "politics of compassion" it is supposed to be founded on? Just a hypothesis.
59
These morally-corrupt troglodytes continue to convince me that christianity is horrifying and degrading. It fills me with dread and revulsion. That is what christianity and ann coulter have in common, come to think of it.
60
@56
It is true that everyone can feel remorse for and abandon bad behavior.
The description of some of the attributes of Christian Repentance described in @33 is intended to explain the necessity of sincerity and forsaking the behavior in question, as opposed to Savage's assertion that it was a "free" (and easy) flippant process.
However, in order "to wipe a stain and pain out of one's heart and life" and receive forgiveness and, so to speak, remove the black mark from one's 'report card' it is necessary to call on Jesus Christ, accept Him as your Savior, and demonstrate that you have done so by obeying His commandments. He can and will then pay the price for the sin(s) repented of.
Yes, I see the eyes rolling.
You did ask, however....
(Wordsworth-)
"Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:..."
We lived before we came to this Earth. We are children of a Father in Heaven. The title "Father" is not honorific or metaphorical, he is the Father of our Souls. We leave the home of our Father to come to Earth to learn, grow and mature. To become more like Him, a step in a process of becoming like him. ("Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." 'perfect' might be translated 'whole' or 'completed') Think of it like we lived at home until we were 18 then it was time to go off to University to continue our education and development. There are things we must do and traits we must refine if our education is to be successful, if we are to progress along the path of becoming like our Father. We are given a syllabus- we call them 'commandments', and indeed, they are not optional if we are to succeed- but we might also think of them as Life's Instruction Manual. You buy a car, the owner's manual tells you what kind of oil, gas, etc to use in the car. Follow the instructions, given by folks who created the car and know what will make it function, and you will get years of good use. If, however, you substituted milk for engine oil you would soon destroy the engine. So with life- obey the 'commandments'- instructions from He who created us and know what will make a joyous life- and we can find happiness and satisfaction. We can muddle through doing a minimum of damage to ourselves and others. Ignore the Manual and we cause and reap heartache, suffering, Damnation even. (Dam a river and you halt it's progress. When we sin we reap 'damnation'- we halt or even reverse our progress toward becoming like our Father.) When we sin, when we don't follow the Owners Manual of Life we render ourselves unfit and unable to return to where our Father is. A Savior is required and provided- someone who could build up credit with the Eternal Universal Scales of Justice (my term) and pay our debt. He pays our debt when we meet His terms, which are merely that we obey the Manual of Life- the commandments: Love (and render service to) your neighbor, don't hurt others (or yourself), etc. When we sincerely repent and abandon sin He pays the penalty of our sin and gives us peace of mind. Repentance is an ongoing process through which we bring our lives closer and closer to achieving our potential- ongoing not because we repeat the same sins over and over after paying lip service to repentance but because we abandon more and more sin as we become more 'perfect'.
So, yes, anyone can feel remorse for and abandon bad behavior. But by accepting Christ one can also receive forgiveness- remove the black mark from one's heart and 'report card' and wipe the slate clean. This is what Mr Hume invited Tiger Woods to consider.
What is the purpose of Life? To grow more like our Father in Heaven by obedience to the commandments and Faith.To return to our home and Him. An essential component in the process is a Savior, Christ the Lord. (Romans 8- The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ...)
More...
It is true that everyone can feel remorse for and abandon bad behavior.
The description of some of the attributes of Christian Repentance described in @33 is intended to explain the necessity of sincerity and forsaking the behavior in question, as opposed to Savage's assertion that it was a "free" (and easy) flippant process.
However, in order "to wipe a stain and pain out of one's heart and life" and receive forgiveness and, so to speak, remove the black mark from one's 'report card' it is necessary to call on Jesus Christ, accept Him as your Savior, and demonstrate that you have done so by obeying His commandments. He can and will then pay the price for the sin(s) repented of.
Yes, I see the eyes rolling.
You did ask, however....
(Wordsworth-)
"Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:..."
We lived before we came to this Earth. We are children of a Father in Heaven. The title "Father" is not honorific or metaphorical, he is the Father of our Souls. We leave the home of our Father to come to Earth to learn, grow and mature. To become more like Him, a step in a process of becoming like him. ("Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." 'perfect' might be translated 'whole' or 'completed') Think of it like we lived at home until we were 18 then it was time to go off to University to continue our education and development. There are things we must do and traits we must refine if our education is to be successful, if we are to progress along the path of becoming like our Father. We are given a syllabus- we call them 'commandments', and indeed, they are not optional if we are to succeed- but we might also think of them as Life's Instruction Manual. You buy a car, the owner's manual tells you what kind of oil, gas, etc to use in the car. Follow the instructions, given by folks who created the car and know what will make it function, and you will get years of good use. If, however, you substituted milk for engine oil you would soon destroy the engine. So with life- obey the 'commandments'- instructions from He who created us and know what will make a joyous life- and we can find happiness and satisfaction. We can muddle through doing a minimum of damage to ourselves and others. Ignore the Manual and we cause and reap heartache, suffering, Damnation even. (Dam a river and you halt it's progress. When we sin we reap 'damnation'- we halt or even reverse our progress toward becoming like our Father.) When we sin, when we don't follow the Owners Manual of Life we render ourselves unfit and unable to return to where our Father is. A Savior is required and provided- someone who could build up credit with the Eternal Universal Scales of Justice (my term) and pay our debt. He pays our debt when we meet His terms, which are merely that we obey the Manual of Life- the commandments: Love (and render service to) your neighbor, don't hurt others (or yourself), etc. When we sincerely repent and abandon sin He pays the penalty of our sin and gives us peace of mind. Repentance is an ongoing process through which we bring our lives closer and closer to achieving our potential- ongoing not because we repeat the same sins over and over after paying lip service to repentance but because we abandon more and more sin as we become more 'perfect'.
So, yes, anyone can feel remorse for and abandon bad behavior. But by accepting Christ one can also receive forgiveness- remove the black mark from one's heart and 'report card' and wipe the slate clean. This is what Mr Hume invited Tiger Woods to consider.
What is the purpose of Life? To grow more like our Father in Heaven by obedience to the commandments and Faith.To return to our home and Him. An essential component in the process is a Savior, Christ the Lord. (Romans 8- The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ...)
61
@58
Yes.
It is heartbreaking and frustrating that so many who proclaim themselves "Christian" (and usually the loudest) are such terrible examples of what a follower of Christ should be/do.
It leads astray many who judge Christianity based on the example of such as those and don't have personal experience with the Gospel.
Yes.
It is heartbreaking and frustrating that so many who proclaim themselves "Christian" (and usually the loudest) are such terrible examples of what a follower of Christ should be/do.
It leads astray many who judge Christianity based on the example of such as those and don't have personal experience with the Gospel.
62
Ann's a professional troll (in the Internet sense). If you've pissed her off and gotten her making wild accusations that make no sense, you're doing the right thing. Keep up the good work.
63
@60: tl;dr.
All that laborious process of seeking forgiveness from God/Jeebus is superfluous in this case, as the sin was against his wife. See, I'm one of those people who's not sure about Jesus's credentials as a carpenter but thinks he was a rabbi with some really interesting things to say. In my religion (the older and in my opinion truer one than what Christianity has become), Adoneinu forgives those sins against Him which we remember and truly repent for whether or not we pray for forgiveness directly to Him. However, for any ill deed which has harmed another, it is necessary to seek forgiveness from that person. And that is where Christianity is gravely mistaken.
Additionally, we consider some sins to be unforgivable. Murder and defamation of character are considered blood crimes and therefore unforgivable, as a murdered person cannot be brought back to life, and it is impossible to remove that shadow of suspicion from the reputation of one falsely accused.
According to Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of four sins for which we are not given the opportunity to repent is any sin committed with the intention of later repenting for it.
All that laborious process of seeking forgiveness from God/Jeebus is superfluous in this case, as the sin was against his wife. See, I'm one of those people who's not sure about Jesus's credentials as a carpenter but thinks he was a rabbi with some really interesting things to say. In my religion (the older and in my opinion truer one than what Christianity has become), Adoneinu forgives those sins against Him which we remember and truly repent for whether or not we pray for forgiveness directly to Him. However, for any ill deed which has harmed another, it is necessary to seek forgiveness from that person. And that is where Christianity is gravely mistaken.
Additionally, we consider some sins to be unforgivable. Murder and defamation of character are considered blood crimes and therefore unforgivable, as a murdered person cannot be brought back to life, and it is impossible to remove that shadow of suspicion from the reputation of one falsely accused.
According to Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of four sins for which we are not given the opportunity to repent is any sin committed with the intention of later repenting for it.
64
i was raised southern baptist and thats what i was taught- if u ask god for forgiveness u'll be forgiven, easy peasy japanesy... so dan/ann have it rite/wrong... anyways, as u all no by now, buddism does have a forgiveness component, so i guess that tv guy is just plain stupid... and god awful pasty...
65
JesusChristjumpedupinasidecar! Does ANYBODY with any intelligence anywhere on the political spectrum truly give a shit what Ann Coulter says/thinks/writes anymore?
Having written that, I do confess to being concerned about her anorexia or bulemia or whatever the hell keeps her looking so skeletal. Maybe if she consumed food on a regular basis, she wouldn't be so delusional.
Having written that, I do confess to being concerned about her anorexia or bulemia or whatever the hell keeps her looking so skeletal. Maybe if she consumed food on a regular basis, she wouldn't be so delusional.
66
Perhaps if Tiger really practiced Buddhism, he wouldn't have so easily given into the attachments of lust and cheated on his wife in the first place.
67
But why would a Buddhist need Xtianity? The only thing that I can think of is that, if you are in the club of sprinkled people, the Xtians don't come to evangelize. I have never had a Buddhist knock on my door and try to convert me to their deal...and that's why I like Buddhists better than Xtians. They are far more respectful of my freedom to live a god-free life.
Whatever her deal, I just hope that Ann C is spayed (or neutered, or whatever)
Whatever her deal, I just hope that Ann C is spayed (or neutered, or whatever)
69
madcap I'm sure Tiger really practices Buddhism, but he may not be very good at it.
Buddhism recognizes the human condition, the idea that we live in perpetual need. In fact Buddha argues (in accordance to The Vinegar Tasters) that the devices we use that lead to short-term fulfillment of these needs are temporary and thus unsatisfactory, that through enlightenment we would find the long-term answer.
The thing is, these short-term devices are quicker, easier and more seductive than the long-term ones, which is why we (Buddhists or no) so often will indulge them not only despite their temporariness, but also despite the negative consequences that quickly follow. So it is with Tiger's infidelity.
The Buddhist response is to pony up. Serve the time. Make reparations. If wifey dumps Tiger, that's her prerogative. If Elin forgives him, she's being generous. Life and the adventure go on.
But as I mentioned before, it's a cop-out when Christians decide they only need make peace with God for their trespasses. Forgiveness is, indeed, a virtue, but that is to say it's an ideal. It is, likewise, a generosity. But just because you've settled affairs with God doesn't mean you can neglect your duties of recompense to the rest of society.
On a similar vein, I think it would have been a shocking and awesome display of Christian grace for President Bush to have forgiven the Taliban (and al-Qa'ida) for the 9/11 attacks, and then to demand in return immediate modernization of their policies (especially when it came to human liberties) on threat of open conquest (not mere military action, but development of Afghanistan into a US territory). It's too bad Bush was far more a pawn of the New Century America conservative front than he was a devout evangelist.
More...
Buddhism recognizes the human condition, the idea that we live in perpetual need. In fact Buddha argues (in accordance to The Vinegar Tasters) that the devices we use that lead to short-term fulfillment of these needs are temporary and thus unsatisfactory, that through enlightenment we would find the long-term answer.
The thing is, these short-term devices are quicker, easier and more seductive than the long-term ones, which is why we (Buddhists or no) so often will indulge them not only despite their temporariness, but also despite the negative consequences that quickly follow. So it is with Tiger's infidelity.
The Buddhist response is to pony up. Serve the time. Make reparations. If wifey dumps Tiger, that's her prerogative. If Elin forgives him, she's being generous. Life and the adventure go on.
But as I mentioned before, it's a cop-out when Christians decide they only need make peace with God for their trespasses. Forgiveness is, indeed, a virtue, but that is to say it's an ideal. It is, likewise, a generosity. But just because you've settled affairs with God doesn't mean you can neglect your duties of recompense to the rest of society.
On a similar vein, I think it would have been a shocking and awesome display of Christian grace for President Bush to have forgiven the Taliban (and al-Qa'ida) for the 9/11 attacks, and then to demand in return immediate modernization of their policies (especially when it came to human liberties) on threat of open conquest (not mere military action, but development of Afghanistan into a US territory). It's too bad Bush was far more a pawn of the New Century America conservative front than he was a devout evangelist.
70
@Uriel-238:
I'm not sure Tiger practices Buddhism, based on his past statements of believing "most of [Buddhism]" and taking "bits and pieces". But that's neither here nor there. I don't really care what Tiger practices.
My point was more about Hume's ignorant and chauvinist comments about Christianity versus Buddhism. In Hume's apparent version of Christianity, the sinner need only convert and ask for forgiveness, and presto-chango, his past misdeeds are forgiven! He doesn't even need to pay an indulgence anymore (thanks Reformation)!
Buddhism, on the other hand, or at least what I know of it, teaches that the fruit of karma is unavoidable. The only way to avoid it is to avoid the karma in the first place. Instead of accepting the individual's lustful nature and offering infinite forgiveness for it (not that this is an accurate characterization of real Christian theology), Buddhism teaches the individual how to quell such nature. If I were Elin and I were tempted to stick with Tiger, I'd rather he indulge in a spiritual practice that is more likely to quench the grasping that led to his philandering in the first place, rather than offer a blank check of empty forgiveness.
I can't say I agree with your position on Afghanistan, though. First, Bush wasn't in the position to offer Christian grace to the Taliban or al Qaeda, I believe only God can offer that, and I would say that Bush wasn't even in a position to legitimately forgive them on secular grounds, because that would certainly not represent the will of the people. Also, remember that at first we demanded that the Taliban give up bin Laden; it was only when they refused to that we supported the Northern Alliance's takeover. Voluntary modernization would have dissolved the Taliban anyway (and I'm sure their leaders would have to go into hiding or face recriminations at the hands of their former subjects). Given the current situation, they probably made the correct strategic choice: resist, fallback, engage in a cross-border guerrilla terror campaign.
I'm also not so sure the Buddha would condone an ultimatum such as you describe, if that was your meaning.
More...
I'm not sure Tiger practices Buddhism, based on his past statements of believing "most of [Buddhism]" and taking "bits and pieces". But that's neither here nor there. I don't really care what Tiger practices.
My point was more about Hume's ignorant and chauvinist comments about Christianity versus Buddhism. In Hume's apparent version of Christianity, the sinner need only convert and ask for forgiveness, and presto-chango, his past misdeeds are forgiven! He doesn't even need to pay an indulgence anymore (thanks Reformation)!
Buddhism, on the other hand, or at least what I know of it, teaches that the fruit of karma is unavoidable. The only way to avoid it is to avoid the karma in the first place. Instead of accepting the individual's lustful nature and offering infinite forgiveness for it (not that this is an accurate characterization of real Christian theology), Buddhism teaches the individual how to quell such nature. If I were Elin and I were tempted to stick with Tiger, I'd rather he indulge in a spiritual practice that is more likely to quench the grasping that led to his philandering in the first place, rather than offer a blank check of empty forgiveness.
I can't say I agree with your position on Afghanistan, though. First, Bush wasn't in the position to offer Christian grace to the Taliban or al Qaeda, I believe only God can offer that, and I would say that Bush wasn't even in a position to legitimately forgive them on secular grounds, because that would certainly not represent the will of the people. Also, remember that at first we demanded that the Taliban give up bin Laden; it was only when they refused to that we supported the Northern Alliance's takeover. Voluntary modernization would have dissolved the Taliban anyway (and I'm sure their leaders would have to go into hiding or face recriminations at the hands of their former subjects). Given the current situation, they probably made the correct strategic choice: resist, fallback, engage in a cross-border guerrilla terror campaign.
I'm also not so sure the Buddha would condone an ultimatum such as you describe, if that was your meaning.
71
I'm pretty sure Buddha, a raging pacifist, was not big on ultimata.
My position regarding Bush was an aside, a pet peeve, given W. tapped into his evangelism to justify many of his choices (including the invasion of Iraq, what was, by most educated opinions, an unjust war).
Funny, I don't remember Bush's demand that they hand over Bin Laden, only that it was revealed many of the rest of the Bin Laden's were in town and he had to shuttle them back in secret. But we may not have given very long before we started moving in.
Bush's position as the executive of the United States was in power to forgive the Taliban, not in the name of God but in the name of the country, at least until Congress voted to go to war. But yes, you are right that we as a nation are a rather vengeful lot, which well explains also why we cling onto capital punishment.
And yes, Hume is being ignorant and self indulgent.
My position regarding Bush was an aside, a pet peeve, given W. tapped into his evangelism to justify many of his choices (including the invasion of Iraq, what was, by most educated opinions, an unjust war).
Funny, I don't remember Bush's demand that they hand over Bin Laden, only that it was revealed many of the rest of the Bin Laden's were in town and he had to shuttle them back in secret. But we may not have given very long before we started moving in.
Bush's position as the executive of the United States was in power to forgive the Taliban, not in the name of God but in the name of the country, at least until Congress voted to go to war. But yes, you are right that we as a nation are a rather vengeful lot, which well explains also why we cling onto capital punishment.
And yes, Hume is being ignorant and self indulgent.
72
Just for historical purposes, Bush delivered his ultimatums to the Taliban before Congress on Sept 20, 2001:
* deliver al-Qaeda leaders located in Afghanistan to the United States authorities
* release all imprisoned foreign nationals, including American citizens
* protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers in Afghanistan
* close terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and "hand over every terrorist and every person and their support structure to appropriate authorities"
* give the United States full access to terrorist training camps to verify their closure
The Taliban refused these conditions (saying there was no evidence bin Laden was involved and that he was a guest in the country and thus had asylum). Then the Taliban offered to try bin Laden in Afghanistan in an Islamic court, but the US rejected this. The US bombing campaign started on Oct 7, 2001. On Oct 14, the Taliban offered to send bin Laden to a third country for trial if provided evidence for his guilt, but this too was rejected.
Personally I don't see the invasion of Afghanistan as a case of pure vengeance. We expect the police to go after criminals and the justice system to lock them up, even if we are opposed to the death penalty. Similarly, it's not very reasonable to expect us to sustain a terrorist attack that kills over 3,000 of our people and simply "forgive" the aggressors while they continue plotting against us. I don't remember al Qaeda asking for our forgiveness anyway.
* deliver al-Qaeda leaders located in Afghanistan to the United States authorities
* release all imprisoned foreign nationals, including American citizens
* protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers in Afghanistan
* close terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and "hand over every terrorist and every person and their support structure to appropriate authorities"
* give the United States full access to terrorist training camps to verify their closure
The Taliban refused these conditions (saying there was no evidence bin Laden was involved and that he was a guest in the country and thus had asylum). Then the Taliban offered to try bin Laden in Afghanistan in an Islamic court, but the US rejected this. The US bombing campaign started on Oct 7, 2001. On Oct 14, the Taliban offered to send bin Laden to a third country for trial if provided evidence for his guilt, but this too was rejected.
Personally I don't see the invasion of Afghanistan as a case of pure vengeance. We expect the police to go after criminals and the justice system to lock them up, even if we are opposed to the death penalty. Similarly, it's not very reasonable to expect us to sustain a terrorist attack that kills over 3,000 of our people and simply "forgive" the aggressors while they continue plotting against us. I don't remember al Qaeda asking for our forgiveness anyway.
73
Thanks for the recap, madcap. I didn't say a forgiveness scenario was reasonable, but that is part of why it would have been historical action of a biblical magnitude. Our demands were more than reasonable under the circumstances, as is our continuing regime change policy. Invasion for conquest would have been rude, but understandable. Half of Europe was expecting us to nuke the camps anyway.
The invasion / extraction policy wasn't necessarily vengeful, but our suspension of Geneva Convention policies and the legal tap-dances we did to justify them reek of vengeance, unless we cut to the chase and say we were waterboarding unlawful combatants to extract justification of the Iraqi war.
The invasion / extraction policy wasn't necessarily vengeful, but our suspension of Geneva Convention policies and the legal tap-dances we did to justify them reek of vengeance, unless we cut to the chase and say we were waterboarding unlawful combatants to extract justification of the Iraqi war.
74
I'm willing to give Cheney & co. the benefit of the doubt that their decisions weren't out of vengeance. Just evil.
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