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News & ArtsMonday, January 4, 2010
Homo / Religion No One Could've Predicted
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 7:18 AM
So... a group of American evangelicals travel to Uganda to tell Ugandans—poor, devout, tribal Ugandans—that gays and lesbians have a "hidden and dark agenda," an agenda that includes turning straight men gay, raping and sodomizing children, and destroying the family. And then legislators in Uganda turn around and propose a new law that calls for the imprisonment and execution of gays and lesbians before we can carry out our hidden agenda for Uganda. Now these American Christians—if I may use that term—are claiming that they never intended to, like, get anyone killed or anything.
The three Americans who spoke at the conference—Scott Lively, a missionary who has written several books against homosexuality, including “7 Steps to Recruit-Proof Your Child”; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-described former gay man who leads “healing seminars”; and Don Schmierer, a board member of Exodus International, whose mission is “mobilizing the body of Christ to minister grace and truth to a world impacted by homosexuality”—are now trying to distance themselves from the bill.“I feel duped,” Mr. Schmierer said, arguing that he had been invited to speak on “parenting skills” for families with gay children. He acknowledged telling audiences how homosexuals could be converted into heterosexuals, but he said he had no idea some Ugandans were contemplating the death penalty for homosexuality. “That’s horrible, absolutely horrible,” he said. “Some of the nicest people I have ever met are gay people.”
No one could've predicted that whipping up anti-gay hysteria would have potentially deadly consequences. It's not like Uganda has a history of genocidal violence, right?
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and of course, it would never occur to Ugandans to kill each other without the evil prompting of American Christians...
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the civilized humanist world owes Dan a huge debt of gratitude for connecting the dots and exposing the source of African murder and mayhem.
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We are allowing them to give an answer to what they were not trying to do when what we should be forcing them to answer is what they were trying to do if it wasn't eliminate homosexuals from Uganda. They might publicly disavow the methods but the goal was the same.
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No one could've predicted that promiscous sexual behavior giving AIDS a toehold in humans then spreading it widely would have potentially deadly consequences.....
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When are we going to begin introducing these American Christians-and their supporters (both passive and aggressive)-to some not nice gay people?
Should we wait until they succeed at achieving a gay genocide in some charming African country or would it be too late by then?
Is it ok for them to be allowed to raise 2x the amount of the tax free money they clamored for over the holidays without criticism?
The West has a permissive culture....we let religious charlatans get away with murder.
Should we wait until they succeed at achieving a gay genocide in some charming African country or would it be too late by then?
Is it ok for them to be allowed to raise 2x the amount of the tax free money they clamored for over the holidays without criticism?
The West has a permissive culture....we let religious charlatans get away with murder.
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So LC was defending cultural imperialism when she defended these laws. That's funny, but only in the sad way that stubborn ignorance is.
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It's like publicly whining that you didn't know a cow was going to die after you ordered a hamburger.These people are very open about their desire to eliminate homosexuality from society, there is no way to do that without throwing a few gays in the meat grinder. If these people aren't treated by society like KKK members we have failed.
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what the fuck, dan? this is mudede's beat. so gtfo! oh, wait, there's some gay in there? but charles hates fags, so... cockfight?
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@3 rob, are you trolling again? evangelicals in the US want to kill gays? really? why can't you just be against evangelicals for what they actually believe? why are you always resorting to the straw-man attack?
i'm against evangelicals for being against homosexuals. most want to discriminate in a way that they cannot even justify using their own belief system, let alone american standards. even more harmful, many evangelicals create an environment which is unhealthy for those who do not fit the mold -- sexual or otherwise -- evangelicals have decided is acceptable to impose on everyone.
that said, i've never met one evangelical in america who actually thinks gays should be executed for being gay.
the law in uganda is ridiculous -- which should go without saying -- but i hope this does cause evangelicals to consider where they speak, and what might be taken from their message. that same message in america didn't cause the legislation that resulted in uganda, so in a way i can understand why these speakers were caught off-guard. this should be lesson to them, and to others, that words can encourage the actions of others in ways that might not have been intended. if you really care for people, and if you really care for your message, you would go far out of your way to prevent or denounce such actions if you believe they are inconsistent with your message.
i'm against evangelicals for being against homosexuals. most want to discriminate in a way that they cannot even justify using their own belief system, let alone american standards. even more harmful, many evangelicals create an environment which is unhealthy for those who do not fit the mold -- sexual or otherwise -- evangelicals have decided is acceptable to impose on everyone.
that said, i've never met one evangelical in america who actually thinks gays should be executed for being gay.
the law in uganda is ridiculous -- which should go without saying -- but i hope this does cause evangelicals to consider where they speak, and what might be taken from their message. that same message in america didn't cause the legislation that resulted in uganda, so in a way i can understand why these speakers were caught off-guard. this should be lesson to them, and to others, that words can encourage the actions of others in ways that might not have been intended. if you really care for people, and if you really care for your message, you would go far out of your way to prevent or denounce such actions if you believe they are inconsistent with your message.
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The sad thing about the doublethink that goes on in the Evangelical community is that they really do think they love the gays. They're always saying, "Hate the sin, love the sinner."
They really do believe that the best thing to do for a gay person's best interest is to forbid him forming his or her own family, fire him from his or her job, and heard him or her into camps... [I'm sorry, that's going a bit too far] encourage him or her to attend camps where they will cure his or her homosexuality through psychotherapy and prayer.
Of course, a lot of them also really do honestly believe that the best way to serve a murderer's best interests is to strap him to a table, put him to sleep, and poison him twice. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense either way, does it?
I guess that through Jesus, all things really are possible.
They really do believe that the best thing to do for a gay person's best interest is to forbid him forming his or her own family, fire him from his or her job, and heard him or her into camps... [I'm sorry, that's going a bit too far] encourage him or her to attend camps where they will cure his or her homosexuality through psychotherapy and prayer.
Of course, a lot of them also really do honestly believe that the best way to serve a murderer's best interests is to strap him to a table, put him to sleep, and poison him twice. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense either way, does it?
I guess that through Jesus, all things really are possible.
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"Some of the nicest people I have ever met are gay people."
Jesus Christ. What dimension are these people living in??! How the fuck do you go to a country like Uganda, preach that homosexuality is a threat to the family, and then waltz off claiming that you had no idea what kind of insanity would ensue?
Somebody please tell me what I can do. I write letters (to my congressmen, to my MP, to newspapers, to companies and individuals who get it wrong), I post to a blog, I pick arguments in the street (here in the UK) with proselytizing Mormons. How do we stop these people?
Jesus Christ. What dimension are these people living in??! How the fuck do you go to a country like Uganda, preach that homosexuality is a threat to the family, and then waltz off claiming that you had no idea what kind of insanity would ensue?
Somebody please tell me what I can do. I write letters (to my congressmen, to my MP, to newspapers, to companies and individuals who get it wrong), I post to a blog, I pick arguments in the street (here in the UK) with proselytizing Mormons. How do we stop these people?
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In his blog "Defend the Family," Lively stated: "On the positive side, my host and ministry partner in Kampala, Stephen Langa, was overjoyed with the results of our efforts and predicted confidently that the coming weeks would see significant improvement in the moral climate of the nation, and a massive increase in pro-family activism in every social sphere. He said that a respected observer of society in Kampala had told him that our campaign was like a nuclear bomb against the "gay" agenda in Uganda. I pray that this, and the predictions, are true."
If this doesn't sound crystal clear, your ears are probably clogged.
If this doesn't sound crystal clear, your ears are probably clogged.
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I tend, strongly, to err on the side of understanding and forgiveness. I very, very rarely wish harm on anyone. I can make an exception for these three. I hope they're murdered in the same ways they've incited others to murder.
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They're only "shocked and horrified" at the fact that their connection to the Ugandan law has been publicized. Before this publicity, Uganda was like a playground for them where they could actually push for policies that they can only dream about in the states. If their connection to Ugandan policies had never been pointed out by the media, they would still be thrilled at their "progress" there.
This isn't a strawman argument for evangelicals. Even if most anti-gay evangelicals would not take it so far as a death penalty, you have to remember that many of the Americans connected to Ugandan anti-gay activism are part of a particularly nasty group of evangelicals (the C street "family"), which is more like a cult if you as me. You may argue that they don't represent your typical evangelical christian, but I really don't think it's far fetched to believe that these particular evangelicals would be thrilled at a gay holocaust. They frighten other evangelicals, which should be enough to send shivers down anyone's spine.
This isn't a strawman argument for evangelicals. Even if most anti-gay evangelicals would not take it so far as a death penalty, you have to remember that many of the Americans connected to Ugandan anti-gay activism are part of a particularly nasty group of evangelicals (the C street "family"), which is more like a cult if you as me. You may argue that they don't represent your typical evangelical christian, but I really don't think it's far fetched to believe that these particular evangelicals would be thrilled at a gay holocaust. They frighten other evangelicals, which should be enough to send shivers down anyone's spine.
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@11- No, they don't SAY they're for killing homosexuals. Of course, they usually didn't say they were for killing abortion providing OB/GYNs or for "starving the beast" of Federal Government.
But they are. They're at war with secularism, they send their kids to Taliban camp, they're a cancer. Sure, it's not every Evangelical. It's just the heart of their movement, and those on the sideline will never stand up for the rights of religious or sexual minorities.
But they are. They're at war with secularism, they send their kids to Taliban camp, they're a cancer. Sure, it's not every Evangelical. It's just the heart of their movement, and those on the sideline will never stand up for the rights of religious or sexual minorities.
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I wonder if Brundidge's "healing seminars" involve circle jerks...there is no such thing as being "ex-gay". It's in people's brain chemistry from day one, and while it can change, you cannot voluntarily change your sexual orientation, no matter how much you pray. The idea that homosexuality is chosen rather than innate is the most basic misunderstanding that the evangelicals have.
@4: Actually, the Rwandan genocide started similarly, with people who have been pushing for the extermination of a certain group blaming that group for a perceived crime and then calling for blood. Only that time, the Tutsis were accused of shooting down a plane carrying Hutu and Tutsi leaders instead of homosexuals being accused of pedophilia and "attacks on marriage". Go tickle a porcupine, Alleged.
@4: Actually, the Rwandan genocide started similarly, with people who have been pushing for the extermination of a certain group blaming that group for a perceived crime and then calling for blood. Only that time, the Tutsis were accused of shooting down a plane carrying Hutu and Tutsi leaders instead of homosexuals being accused of pedophilia and "attacks on marriage". Go tickle a porcupine, Alleged.
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11, Evangelicals not only wish they could legally arrest and kill gay people here, they also wish that they could openly say it too. Their actions speak louder than the words they long to say.
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For three days, according to participants and audio recordings, thousands of Ugandans, including police officers, teachers and national politicians, listened raptly to the Americans, who were presented as experts on homosexuality. The visitors discussed how to make gay people straight, how gay men often sodomized teenage boys and how “the gay movement is an evil institution” whose goal is “to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity.”
This "threat to marriage" bogeyman that religious conservatives use is a sham. They feel that same-sex attraction is wrong, period, based on their literalist interpretation of Biblical passages.
If there's any "threat to marriage" it's from straight people like Mark Sanford, Elliot Abrams and Tiger Woods.
Gay men do molest boys and that's despicable, but it's equally despicable when straight men molest girls and it's not gay men who are raping adult women.
This "threat to marriage" bogeyman that religious conservatives use is a sham. They feel that same-sex attraction is wrong, period, based on their literalist interpretation of Biblical passages.
If there's any "threat to marriage" it's from straight people like Mark Sanford, Elliot Abrams and Tiger Woods.
Gay men do molest boys and that's despicable, but it's equally despicable when straight men molest girls and it's not gay men who are raping adult women.
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27/Rob: 11, Evangelicals not only wish they could legally arrest and kill gay people here, they also wish that they could openly say it too. Their actions speak louder than the words they long to say.
If evangelicals had their way, I've little doubt they'd reinstate "anti-sodomy" laws. But killing gay people? That's the same kind of hysteria that evangelicals indulge in when they claim that the "homosexual agenda" is to molest little boys and destroy marriage.
And evangelicals will never have their way. It's taking time, but American society is becoming more and more accepting of gays and lesbians, not less.
If evangelicals had their way, I've little doubt they'd reinstate "anti-sodomy" laws. But killing gay people? That's the same kind of hysteria that evangelicals indulge in when they claim that the "homosexual agenda" is to molest little boys and destroy marriage.
And evangelicals will never have their way. It's taking time, but American society is becoming more and more accepting of gays and lesbians, not less.
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I saw this on Rachel Maddow a couple weeks ago. It's so disgusting to consider someone of faith sitting in their safe little office in Wash, DC coming up with a scheme to commit hate crimes in the third world. I guess it's kind of a tradition, but churches in the US kind of limited it to the Indian nations, rather than exporting it to Africa or India like the British, French, Dutch etc.
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@29-
You have no idea what you're talking about. The evangelicals I spent 13 years of my young adult life with would absolutely support laws like that Uganda is trying to pass, right here in these United States.
They believe at the core of their being that gays ARE more of a threat to this country than terrorism. The gays are violating the laws of nature, their own bodies and the humanity God created them with. In so doing, they pervert all around them and corrupt the rest of society. While it would be good if they would repent for their evil, if they won't, they must be stopped at any cost, including camps and execution. Just read Scott Lively's words @22- that's just what he can say out loud, for the faithful (and others who might hear). In his heart, queers are worse than murderers. The threat of camps and execution will encourage them to repent and find God. These christians love us, you see.
The queer community is going to have to wake up to the realities of what these folks hold dear. They will never accept 'gay', never relate to our common humanity and never believe that this is something as innate as eye color and handedness. Once we do wake up, THEN we'll figure out how to effectively counter their 'work'. Until then, we're living in the same fantasy-land that you're living in. These people are evil in their hearts and minds, and have twisted the word of God to suit their own agenda- eliminate gay from American society, before God destroys us, as he did Sodom/Gommorah.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The evangelicals I spent 13 years of my young adult life with would absolutely support laws like that Uganda is trying to pass, right here in these United States.
They believe at the core of their being that gays ARE more of a threat to this country than terrorism. The gays are violating the laws of nature, their own bodies and the humanity God created them with. In so doing, they pervert all around them and corrupt the rest of society. While it would be good if they would repent for their evil, if they won't, they must be stopped at any cost, including camps and execution. Just read Scott Lively's words @22- that's just what he can say out loud, for the faithful (and others who might hear). In his heart, queers are worse than murderers. The threat of camps and execution will encourage them to repent and find God. These christians love us, you see.
The queer community is going to have to wake up to the realities of what these folks hold dear. They will never accept 'gay', never relate to our common humanity and never believe that this is something as innate as eye color and handedness. Once we do wake up, THEN we'll figure out how to effectively counter their 'work'. Until then, we're living in the same fantasy-land that you're living in. These people are evil in their hearts and minds, and have twisted the word of God to suit their own agenda- eliminate gay from American society, before God destroys us, as he did Sodom/Gommorah.
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#31,
The way I see it, your certainty that the "evangelical agenda" would put gays in interment caps and slaughter them is no different than the certainty of evangelicals that the "homosexual agenda" is to molest boys, turn straight people gay and destroy marriage.
But that's all moot. The evangelicals are on the wrong side of history (in Western countries anyway..not so in backwards Uganda.) Equality for gays and lesbians isn't complete (if I was gay, I'm sure I'd be frustrated and pissed at that) but the tide is moving inexorably in that direction.
The way I see it, your certainty that the "evangelical agenda" would put gays in interment caps and slaughter them is no different than the certainty of evangelicals that the "homosexual agenda" is to molest boys, turn straight people gay and destroy marriage.
But that's all moot. The evangelicals are on the wrong side of history (in Western countries anyway..not so in backwards Uganda.) Equality for gays and lesbians isn't complete (if I was gay, I'm sure I'd be frustrated and pissed at that) but the tide is moving inexorably in that direction.
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Really, what the fuck is up with your country? What does your future hold? The polarization between the right and left is astounding to behold. The right-wing believes that God almighty is on their side and God doesn't give a shit about anybody. The left-wing barks much about injustice and retribution but never takes action to rectify the perceived wrongs. How is it your neighbours to the north, who come from the exact same stock, can live in a relatively peaceful and tolerant society and you folks can't even agree to disagree. You are owned by Communist China but continue to vilify Cuba. The right-wing nutters who hate all foreigners take their marching orders from an Australian and the left-wing nutters have yet to realize that Reagan hasn't been president for 22 years. You scream from the comfort of your homes about the tea-baggers but god forbid you organize a counter protest of your own. The lunatics are taking over the asylum folks. The rest of the world sits back and says "Whaaaaaa"? Get up off your collective asses and do something, anything. Writing your Congressman obviously doesn't mean for shit. Your Constitution and Bill of Rights are the envy of the world. Start using it for fuck's sake.
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#31, I'm talking extreme right-wing here, but I experienced the same thing. One particular guy told me that he and his "group" deeply believed that I and my kind must be stopped by any means necessary. Never forget that the God they believe in states very clear how gay people (especially gay men) should be dealt with. They believe this. The law isn't on their side, but they truly believe it.
I once asked a conservative Christian what he'd do if God actually spoke to him and told him to hang me for my sins, and he unhesitatingly said, "You already know the answer to that." They do believe this; they would kill for their God if they could; and they have no qualms worshiping a God that instructs them to kill gays and witches. And if they could, they'd act on it, because they play semantic games with the terms "kill" and "murder."
Sure, they'd try "faith healing" and "behavior modification" and camps first. They might move us all to the equivalent of a leper colony. But if none of that worked, they'd exterminate us. It would take a while to get to that, but by then they'd all be brainwashed that it was for the best.
Christianity is great. Conservatism is fine. But conjoin fundamentalist Christianity and far-right conservatism and you've got a dangerous person on your hands.
#32, what you're doing to make your case is qualifying everything and using false analogies.
That's like saying my certainty that the sun will set tonight is no different than the certainty of Creationists who believe that man walked with dinosaurs. One has nothing to do with the other. One is based on empirical evidence and the other is based on biased thinking and bad science. I grew up with fundamentalist Christians. I went to school with them; I listened to their sermons. I know these people and what they believe. I know the difference between what they'll say out loud and what they in private. I know their code words.
And it doesn't matter that the evangelicals are on the wrong side of history, because it doesn't matter to them. They don't think so, you see. And they don't read history anyway. What matters is that they're on the wrong side of the law, for now. What they're trying to do is change the law. That's what they've accomplished in Uganda. They know they can't do that here (again, for now), so they're starting elsewhere. It is an agenda. They're enacting it right in front of your face. We can't rest on our laurels no matter how successful we've been the past few years, because they never rest. Ever.
This:
explains why you can't (or won't) see what's happening here. You're not gay, so you're not "frustrated and pissed" that a large segment of your fellow Americans aren't equal. Why aren't you frustrated and pissed anyway? That . . . that's why evangelicals have a chance of winning. Because of straights who can't be bothered to muster up some goddamn empathy.
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I once asked a conservative Christian what he'd do if God actually spoke to him and told him to hang me for my sins, and he unhesitatingly said, "You already know the answer to that." They do believe this; they would kill for their God if they could; and they have no qualms worshiping a God that instructs them to kill gays and witches. And if they could, they'd act on it, because they play semantic games with the terms "kill" and "murder."
Sure, they'd try "faith healing" and "behavior modification" and camps first. They might move us all to the equivalent of a leper colony. But if none of that worked, they'd exterminate us. It would take a while to get to that, but by then they'd all be brainwashed that it was for the best.
Christianity is great. Conservatism is fine. But conjoin fundamentalist Christianity and far-right conservatism and you've got a dangerous person on your hands.
#32, what you're doing to make your case is qualifying everything and using false analogies.
your certainty that the "evangelical agenda" would put gays in interment caps and slaughter them is no different than the certainty of evangelicals that the "homosexual agenda" is to molest boys, turn straight people gay and destroy marriage.
That's like saying my certainty that the sun will set tonight is no different than the certainty of Creationists who believe that man walked with dinosaurs. One has nothing to do with the other. One is based on empirical evidence and the other is based on biased thinking and bad science. I grew up with fundamentalist Christians. I went to school with them; I listened to their sermons. I know these people and what they believe. I know the difference between what they'll say out loud and what they in private. I know their code words.
And it doesn't matter that the evangelicals are on the wrong side of history, because it doesn't matter to them. They don't think so, you see. And they don't read history anyway. What matters is that they're on the wrong side of the law, for now. What they're trying to do is change the law. That's what they've accomplished in Uganda. They know they can't do that here (again, for now), so they're starting elsewhere. It is an agenda. They're enacting it right in front of your face. We can't rest on our laurels no matter how successful we've been the past few years, because they never rest. Ever.
This:
Equality for gays and lesbians isn't complete (if I was gay, I'm sure I'd be frustrated and pissed at that) but the tide is moving inexorably in that direction.
explains why you can't (or won't) see what's happening here. You're not gay, so you're not "frustrated and pissed" that a large segment of your fellow Americans aren't equal. Why aren't you frustrated and pissed anyway? That . . . that's why evangelicals have a chance of winning. Because of straights who can't be bothered to muster up some goddamn empathy.
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What would you do if God actually spoke to you and told you to hang a conservative Christian for his sins?
What would you do if God actually spoke to you and told you to hang a conservative Christian for his sins?
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#34/jade: That's like saying my certainty that the sun will set tonight is no different than the certainty of Creationists who believe that man walked with dinosaurs. One has nothing to do with the other. One is based on empirical evidence and the other is based on biased thinking and bad science.
Oh really? Your claim is based on empirical evidence? Where's your "empirical evidence" that evangelicals would slaughter all gay people if they could?
And it doesn't matter that the evangelicals are on the wrong side of history, because it doesn't matter to them. They don't think so, you see. And they don't read history anyway. What matters is that they're on the wrong side of the law, for now.
But they're going to continue to be on the wrong side of the law. The law has moved against them and in favor of gays and lesbians and it's going to continue in that direction. That's what I mean when I say they're on the wrong side of history.
What they're trying to do is change the law. That's what they've accomplished in Uganda.
Can you point to ANY instance where a bill has been introduced in the U.S. saying that homosexuality should be a criminal offense punishable by prison, or death? Comparing Uganda to the U.S. is insane.
They know they can't do that here (again, for now),
For now and forever. Even when we had "anti-sodomy" laws in this country, they were hardly strictly enforced. And no states (that I know of) have them anymore. Gays and lesbians are closer to marriage or civil unions throughout the U.S. than anyone would have thought possible a few decades ago. As I said, the tide is moving inexorably in favor of gays and lesbians and against evangelicals.
You're not gay, so you're not "frustrated and pissed" that a large segment of your fellow Americans aren't equal. Why aren't you frustrated and pissed anyway? That . . . that's why evangelicals have a chance of winning. Because of straights who can't be bothered to muster up some goddamn empathy.
I should have I'd be MORE frustrated and pissed if I was gay. I am pissed. I have nothing but contempt for so-called "Christians" who act in a very un-Christ-like manner in wanting to deny gays and lesbians equal rights. People like Ken Hutcherson turn my stomach. Just because I don't support your hysterical "they're going to kill of us and no one will be able to stop them!" paranoia, it doesn't mean I lack empathy. I'm on your side. I'm not the enemy.
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Oh really? Your claim is based on empirical evidence? Where's your "empirical evidence" that evangelicals would slaughter all gay people if they could?
And it doesn't matter that the evangelicals are on the wrong side of history, because it doesn't matter to them. They don't think so, you see. And they don't read history anyway. What matters is that they're on the wrong side of the law, for now.
But they're going to continue to be on the wrong side of the law. The law has moved against them and in favor of gays and lesbians and it's going to continue in that direction. That's what I mean when I say they're on the wrong side of history.
What they're trying to do is change the law. That's what they've accomplished in Uganda.
Can you point to ANY instance where a bill has been introduced in the U.S. saying that homosexuality should be a criminal offense punishable by prison, or death? Comparing Uganda to the U.S. is insane.
They know they can't do that here (again, for now),
For now and forever. Even when we had "anti-sodomy" laws in this country, they were hardly strictly enforced. And no states (that I know of) have them anymore. Gays and lesbians are closer to marriage or civil unions throughout the U.S. than anyone would have thought possible a few decades ago. As I said, the tide is moving inexorably in favor of gays and lesbians and against evangelicals.
You're not gay, so you're not "frustrated and pissed" that a large segment of your fellow Americans aren't equal. Why aren't you frustrated and pissed anyway? That . . . that's why evangelicals have a chance of winning. Because of straights who can't be bothered to muster up some goddamn empathy.
I should have I'd be MORE frustrated and pissed if I was gay. I am pissed. I have nothing but contempt for so-called "Christians" who act in a very un-Christ-like manner in wanting to deny gays and lesbians equal rights. People like Ken Hutcherson turn my stomach. Just because I don't support your hysterical "they're going to kill of us and no one will be able to stop them!" paranoia, it doesn't mean I lack empathy. I'm on your side. I'm not the enemy.
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Good morning, Roma.
I opened my post at #34 with anecdotal evidence, this is true, and you're certainly free to ignore it. But I also specifically said that I'm talking about "extreme right-wing" evangelicals. I specifically said that typical Christians and conservatives are not those I'm referring to, but rather people who have conjoined fundamentalist Christianity and radical right-wing conservatism. Hell the blogger at Slacktivist is an evangelical, but he's not anywhere close to being a conservative, and he's one of the most compassionate and tolerant bloggers on the Internet (that I know of). So I know the difference.
However, if you want empirical evidence, simply look at history (Salem, the Holocaust, sodomy laws, ignoring the "gay plague" for an entire decade, The Family's accomplishments in Uganda, etc.). Or look at hate crimes today, especially against transgendered people. Not all of them would say, "God told me to do it," but I would bet my savings that every one of them believe that God wants them to do it.
When Sean Hannity said he didn't mind gay marriage, but "not in my back yard," how did you take that? What was he really saying? This is code for "quarantine." What if Sean Hannity was addressing an entire town and said this and they all stood and cheered? What would that seem like to you? Could you then imagine a sign at the entrance of that town that read: "Queer, don't let the sun set on you in --"? The logical next step to "not in my back yard" when you're talking about human beings is a sundown town. I'm not saying that this could be accomplished in a small American town anymore (though I'm not saying it couldn't, either). I'm saying there are towns that would if they could.
I don't think this is hysteria. I think this is remembering our past history.
True, the law is on our side in the U.S. (for the most part), but we're posting in a thread whose topic is Uganda. Hey, it's great that they can't kill us here in America. Yay. Awesome. So they've begun influencing countries elsewhere. Jamaica, Uganda, and now Rwanda. Don't you see? They can't have the war here, so they'll take it there. I care about America, but I also care about gays and lesbians in other countries as well. And I damn sure care that Americans are harming gays and lesbians in other countries.
When I talk about their agenda, I'm not just talking about first world nations.
I . . . didn't do that. I was talking about how Americans from our country influenced the laws in Uganda. You even quoted me saying that. Far-right, fundamentalist evangelicals traveled to Uganda and dropped "a nuclear bomb" against the "gay agenda" there. They can't do it here, so they did it there. And I care just as much about the rights of Ugandan gays as I do American ones. Especially when it's wealthy, influential, powerful Americans who are leading the "kill the gays" agenda from the back rooms.
This is true, and it may not seem like it here, but I'm extremely grateful and hopeful. But I also know (and history backs me up on this) that while this is happening, they're going to get more afraid, more vicious, and more violent. I'm very concerned that they seem to have turned their sights to other, poorer, more ignorant, and more religious countries. I'm simply trying to understand why they're doing this. My only conclusion so far is that they're doing it there because they can't do it here. But that doesn't make it any less horrible and any less ominous just because it's only happening there. And it doesn't mean that they wouldn't do it here if they could. It actually proves my point.
Again, and forever: I'm not talking about all evangelicals. I'm talking about the far-right conservative ones. Those like The Family. Those like the ones who commit hate crimes against us. Those like the ones who could give less of a shit about AIDS when it was "only a gay disease."
I wish you wouldn't take what I write and twist it into something else. Especially if you're going to use an exclamation point and put quotation marks around it. I didn't say anything like that, in that tone, and I don't think anything like that. I said, there are some extremely right-wing, religious people who would rather see us dead than completely equal. I said they believe that God is on their side. I said that I've heard this from their own mouths. I said that this is reflected in what they've accomplished in Uganda. And I said that they'd do it here if they could. No where did I say what you quoted and the sentiment is not implied anywhere in my post. And for the record, I don't think in exclamation points. I think in question marks.
That being said, I apologize to you about my "empathy" remark. I should have given you more credit than that and I shouldn't have applied a literal meaning to what you wrote. That was unfair.
More...
Oh really? Your claim is based on empirical evidence? Where's your "empirical evidence" that evangelicals would slaughter all gay people if they could?
I opened my post at #34 with anecdotal evidence, this is true, and you're certainly free to ignore it. But I also specifically said that I'm talking about "extreme right-wing" evangelicals. I specifically said that typical Christians and conservatives are not those I'm referring to, but rather people who have conjoined fundamentalist Christianity and radical right-wing conservatism. Hell the blogger at Slacktivist is an evangelical, but he's not anywhere close to being a conservative, and he's one of the most compassionate and tolerant bloggers on the Internet (that I know of). So I know the difference.
However, if you want empirical evidence, simply look at history (Salem, the Holocaust, sodomy laws, ignoring the "gay plague" for an entire decade, The Family's accomplishments in Uganda, etc.). Or look at hate crimes today, especially against transgendered people. Not all of them would say, "God told me to do it," but I would bet my savings that every one of them believe that God wants them to do it.
When Sean Hannity said he didn't mind gay marriage, but "not in my back yard," how did you take that? What was he really saying? This is code for "quarantine." What if Sean Hannity was addressing an entire town and said this and they all stood and cheered? What would that seem like to you? Could you then imagine a sign at the entrance of that town that read: "Queer, don't let the sun set on you in --"? The logical next step to "not in my back yard" when you're talking about human beings is a sundown town. I'm not saying that this could be accomplished in a small American town anymore (though I'm not saying it couldn't, either). I'm saying there are towns that would if they could.
I don't think this is hysteria. I think this is remembering our past history.
True, the law is on our side in the U.S. (for the most part), but we're posting in a thread whose topic is Uganda. Hey, it's great that they can't kill us here in America. Yay. Awesome. So they've begun influencing countries elsewhere. Jamaica, Uganda, and now Rwanda. Don't you see? They can't have the war here, so they'll take it there. I care about America, but I also care about gays and lesbians in other countries as well. And I damn sure care that Americans are harming gays and lesbians in other countries.
When I talk about their agenda, I'm not just talking about first world nations.
Comparing Uganda to the U.S. is insane.
I . . . didn't do that. I was talking about how Americans from our country influenced the laws in Uganda. You even quoted me saying that. Far-right, fundamentalist evangelicals traveled to Uganda and dropped "a nuclear bomb" against the "gay agenda" there. They can't do it here, so they did it there. And I care just as much about the rights of Ugandan gays as I do American ones. Especially when it's wealthy, influential, powerful Americans who are leading the "kill the gays" agenda from the back rooms.
Gays and lesbians are closer to marriage or civil unions throughout the U.S. than anyone would have thought possible a few decades ago. As I said, the tide is moving inexorably in favor of gays and lesbians and against evangelicals.
This is true, and it may not seem like it here, but I'm extremely grateful and hopeful. But I also know (and history backs me up on this) that while this is happening, they're going to get more afraid, more vicious, and more violent. I'm very concerned that they seem to have turned their sights to other, poorer, more ignorant, and more religious countries. I'm simply trying to understand why they're doing this. My only conclusion so far is that they're doing it there because they can't do it here. But that doesn't make it any less horrible and any less ominous just because it's only happening there. And it doesn't mean that they wouldn't do it here if they could. It actually proves my point.
Again, and forever: I'm not talking about all evangelicals. I'm talking about the far-right conservative ones. Those like The Family. Those like the ones who commit hate crimes against us. Those like the ones who could give less of a shit about AIDS when it was "only a gay disease."
Just because I don't support your hysterical "they're going to kill of us and no one will be able to stop them!" paranoia...
I wish you wouldn't take what I write and twist it into something else. Especially if you're going to use an exclamation point and put quotation marks around it. I didn't say anything like that, in that tone, and I don't think anything like that. I said, there are some extremely right-wing, religious people who would rather see us dead than completely equal. I said they believe that God is on their side. I said that I've heard this from their own mouths. I said that this is reflected in what they've accomplished in Uganda. And I said that they'd do it here if they could. No where did I say what you quoted and the sentiment is not implied anywhere in my post. And for the record, I don't think in exclamation points. I think in question marks.
That being said, I apologize to you about my "empathy" remark. I should have given you more credit than that and I shouldn't have applied a literal meaning to what you wrote. That was unfair.
38
Jade,
Thanks for your comments. I really appreciate the time and thought you put into them. I'd like to do the same, because I've enjoyed this discussion/debate, but I just checked this thread, it's late and I've got to head off to dreamland.
I may write more here tomorrow eve or Friday but, for now, I just wanted to say thank you for your gracious apology and, in return, I apologize for characterizing your feelings as "hysteria." We have way more in common than differences on this issue. I loathe religious fundamentalist types who condemn gays & lesbians and would work to deny them equal rights.
Thanks for your comments. I really appreciate the time and thought you put into them. I'd like to do the same, because I've enjoyed this discussion/debate, but I just checked this thread, it's late and I've got to head off to dreamland.
I may write more here tomorrow eve or Friday but, for now, I just wanted to say thank you for your gracious apology and, in return, I apologize for characterizing your feelings as "hysteria." We have way more in common than differences on this issue. I loathe religious fundamentalist types who condemn gays & lesbians and would work to deny them equal rights.
39
No problem, Roma. I'm just glad that I didn't type you to death! I tend to get wordy sometimes when I feel strongly about things. I'm glad I returned to this discussion and saw your post.
We're totally cool, and I'm glad we had this talk too. Discussions like this force me to think about the particular words I'm choosing to use and that's always a valuable thing.
Hope to run into you again on Slog!
We're totally cool, and I'm glad we had this talk too. Discussions like this force me to think about the particular words I'm choosing to use and that's always a valuable thing.
Hope to run into you again on Slog!
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