Slog
News & ArtsThursday, December 31, 2009
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Feeling Sad on NYE
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 11:00 AM
Tears on the keyboard. I'm 27, female, had two boyfriends in the past 12 years. I'm so lonely, and I'm so sad, and it's so so hard for me to continue facing the world when I"m just a cum dumpster.It's the same thing—I meet a guy, he thinks I'm sexy, he finds out I don't sleep with guys unless we're dating so we date long enough for him to sleep with me and then I get the ol' "I'm not looking for anything serious" speech. But—we spent a whole two months before you slept with me saying that you cared about me, that you got that if we slept together it meant something serious was happening. I feel like I'm just a warm vagina to these men. I know I'm sexy, but there are lots of sexy women in the city who are looking for NSA- why not go for an honest fuck if that's all you want? Is lying part of the male mating call now. I though canadians were supposed to be fucking nice.
I'm pretty, fine. But I'm also very smart, and funny, and open-minded. I'm responsible, I have a great place, I'm not jealous or needy. I give men a lot of space, I wait until I've calmed down to discuss things that have upset me. I give wicked blowjobs, I cook. I live in Toronto—how is it that I'm alone every night? How is it that everybody wants to just drink and fuck me? I'm bawling right now, and I don't know how much more of this heartache I can take.
Question—are the traits which I think are 'good' actually bad? How is it that emotionally manipulative or mean women have ltr's, and I'm over here on my netbook at the crack of dawn? Should I hide the smart and funny? Start being jealous? How - how do I do this? I'm not meeting these men at bars, or at clubs—I'm meeting them at coffee shops and conferences. Where do I go to meet a guy who wants to be respected and will respect me too?
I can't sleep, I can't eat—I'm so broken up. I need to get on with things, do stuff with my life but I'm so fucking lonely it makes me sick. I know you usually give sexual advice, but I don't know where else to turn. I'm willing to accept that I'm doing something wrong—so be brutal, dan. What the fuck is wrong with me? Am I too much or am I just too old?
Stupid Hurt In Toronto
My response after the jump...
Hang in there, SHIT. I didn't meet my boyfriend (of 15 years) until I was 30, and I could've written this letter myself at one point.
As I've said to others in your shoes: Every relationship you're ever going to be in is going to fail... until one doesn't. That doesn't make the failures hurt any less, I know. I'd advise you to go to your friends (or to a good therapist), talk about the men you've dated, the choices you've made, look for patterns. if you ID any destructive patterns, make a deliberate effort to make different choices. If not, if there aren't patterns, keep doing what you're doing until you meet a guy who sticks around.
Also, I'd encourage you to rethink your opposition to one-night stands or sex right away. My boyfriend is the one-night stand who stuck around. Lots of decent, lasting relationships got started thanks to indecent, impulsive sex.
I'm sorry you're hurting. Here's to a better new year—and SHIT is reading this Sloggers, so help her out.
1
I'm 31 and still haven't found the right girl for me. It frustrates me to no end every time things don't work out with a new date, but all we can do is keep working on ourselves and keep looking. Remember that just because we haven't found someone yet doesn't mean we never will.
The other thing I've been doing is trying to find joy and fulfillment in other things. In friends, in family, in activities on my own (long walks, bike trips, etc.) The happier you are on your own, the more content and fulfilled you are alone, the more appealing you will be to potential partners. Very few people are looking for a codependent, needy sack of sorrow. And those people who are probably do so because they want to manipulate you.
Hang in there, things aren't so bad as they seem.
The other thing I've been doing is trying to find joy and fulfillment in other things. In friends, in family, in activities on my own (long walks, bike trips, etc.) The happier you are on your own, the more content and fulfilled you are alone, the more appealing you will be to potential partners. Very few people are looking for a codependent, needy sack of sorrow. And those people who are probably do so because they want to manipulate you.
Hang in there, things aren't so bad as they seem.
2
There are a lot of people in the same place, a month ago I felt like SHIT as well.
I tried to meet people through parties and scientific meetings, bars and while traveling, but just when I got to my lowest point, I got a ride to a nearby city with someone through the university listserve. We hit it off and it has been working out great so far. My point is that I wasn't looking when I found her, chances are the same thing will happen to you. I'm 27, she's 29.
Do NOT stop being smart and funny.
I tried to meet people through parties and scientific meetings, bars and while traveling, but just when I got to my lowest point, I got a ride to a nearby city with someone through the university listserve. We hit it off and it has been working out great so far. My point is that I wasn't looking when I found her, chances are the same thing will happen to you. I'm 27, she's 29.
Do NOT stop being smart and funny.
3
I was 36 before I found my sweetie, and another year older than that before I figured out what was right in front of me. Before that, I was as miserable and unloved as you could possibly imagine. I dunno if that gives you hope for the future, SHIT, or despair for another possible decade, but I hope it's the former. Hang in there. If you're as terrific as you sound, someone will find you eventually. Men are, by and large, a-holes, until they reach a certain age at least, but in a city the size of Toronto even a few percentage points means a lot of decent fellows.
4
When I think back on which relationships worked and which didn't, some of the most successful started off as one-night stands.
Everyone is different, mind you.
Everyone is different, mind you.
5
I'm almost 48 and didn't meet the love of my life till I was 39. Perhaps your requirement--no sex without serious dating--is just a delaying tactic which entices some men to get there, but not stay. Personal compatibility is the key to ltrs, so perhaps you need to look for other keys--lifestyle choices. But I'd agree strongly with #1: you have to be happy alone before anyone will be happy to be with you. This might mean a little vow of solitude for a while, cultivating friendships and interests more, while waiting for The One. And seeing that the Many who did not want you: Their Loss.
6
I wonder if she's also choosing the wrong venues to meet guys, or if she's exclusively going for a certain type (what type, we can only speculate) without considering other guys who might be interested in her (co-workers, guys in her social circle, etc).
Advising a casual approach is good advice. I found my wife when I a) finally stopped looking for an LTR and b) decided to ask a "different" sort of girl out. Viola! Together for 13 years now.
Advising a casual approach is good advice. I found my wife when I a) finally stopped looking for an LTR and b) decided to ask a "different" sort of girl out. Viola! Together for 13 years now.
7
Seems to me what "Stupid Hurt In Toronto" needs to rethink is her position of sleeping with guys unless they're dating her 'long enough'. It doesn't matter if you tell the guy that you don't sleep around in the first date, It's a failed strategy, all you're doing is putting off yourself as a hard to catch prey and like any good predator in the animal kingdom guys will just wait till you fall. At 27 yrs a woman's biological clock is way on it's way and what you need is an older man who is looking to settle down and form a family not hunter-prey dating games.
Change your mindset "Stupid Hurt In Toronto" and look for husband material not for boyfriend material and you'll see how your loneliness will soon be a thing of the past.
Change your mindset "Stupid Hurt In Toronto" and look for husband material not for boyfriend material and you'll see how your loneliness will soon be a thing of the past.
8
Sorry for the redundancy in the first sentence of my second paragraph @ 6. I noticed that when I was posting. Duh, I really ought to proofread when given the opportunity...
9
Hey SHIT, you don't have to be mean and jealous, but you do have to be un-nice in one way: be a little choosy! Don't try and be attractive to a wide range of guys---because you will be anyway. Think about what YOU want in a guy, and then don't settle for less. Make it clear that if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work period. Men respect that.
And Dan is right: be a little less closed-minded about early sex---not to please a guy, mind you, but because YOU might want it then. It's another aspect of looking out for what you want.
You'll be fine. It's just that adult life is a lot harder than anyone lets on. It's like that line in "Annie Hall," where Alvy sees the model-perfect couple and says: "You two seem to be in love, what's your secret?" and the guy replies, "Well, I'm incredibly shallow and she has no personality." Love is simply hard.
And Dan is right: be a little less closed-minded about early sex---not to please a guy, mind you, but because YOU might want it then. It's another aspect of looking out for what you want.
You'll be fine. It's just that adult life is a lot harder than anyone lets on. It's like that line in "Annie Hall," where Alvy sees the model-perfect couple and says: "You two seem to be in love, what's your secret?" and the guy replies, "Well, I'm incredibly shallow and she has no personality." Love is simply hard.
10
Why is it that you hold out on guys until you are seriously dating? Is it for religious reasons? is it just because you think that's what a "good girl" would do? do you think you'll be respected more by the guy? Does it stem from one guy who hurt you and you're letting fear stand in the way of being open to sleeping with a guy a little sooner?
It seems as though you might have some other issues that do need to be looked at and perhaps that might help you find the guy who's right for you. It sounds like you think highly of yourself (which is great, we should always think good things about ourselves and not look to other people to boost our ego's) but I also think there may be some underlying issues you haven't completely thought about (just like Dan was saying).
I've felt lonely, I've even felt lonely in a relationship, but just keep at it. Never stop looking if it's what you want. Try other avenues for dating (like dating websites and singles clubs) and don't be afraid to date...and date, and date, and date :)
Good luck and know that you are not alone. Don't spend the holiday by yourself, go enjoy it with friends and keep your mind open. It is possible to meet an awesome guy at the bar...
It seems as though you might have some other issues that do need to be looked at and perhaps that might help you find the guy who's right for you. It sounds like you think highly of yourself (which is great, we should always think good things about ourselves and not look to other people to boost our ego's) but I also think there may be some underlying issues you haven't completely thought about (just like Dan was saying).
I've felt lonely, I've even felt lonely in a relationship, but just keep at it. Never stop looking if it's what you want. Try other avenues for dating (like dating websites and singles clubs) and don't be afraid to date...and date, and date, and date :)
Good luck and know that you are not alone. Don't spend the holiday by yourself, go enjoy it with friends and keep your mind open. It is possible to meet an awesome guy at the bar...
11
@1 nails it, esp. re: learning to love yourself. Sounds like cliché bullshit, but it wasn't until I (at 29) learned that I'm my best company that I found someone else (and had a couple of one-night stands to boost my ego). But let me add, Toronto is a fucking cold, lonely place (I know, I lived there for 10 years). I don't know if SHIT can move, but I highly recommend it. I moved to the literal middle of nowhere and have never been as lonely as I was in T.O.
12
You sound fantastic, and I have no doubt that you are. But there's more to a relationship than a laundry list of positive traits. I've met plenty of women who are like you - beautiful, smart, emotionally mature, responsible, sexy - but who I'm just not romantically compatible with. And sometimes it takes dating for a while to figure that out. It's not your fault that things don't work out. Would you say that most people are right for most other people? Dating is the process of trying to find somebody who's right for you, and it's a trial and error process. You meet somebody, get along, get close, have sex, get closer, and somewhere along the way you either find out that it's not going to work (this is the most common, of course), or you don't. Along the way you get better at figuring out what you need and what you can't stand, and you get better at identifying the jackasses who date you just for a night of sex and then bail.
I have one other observation. You wrote "I'm so fucking lonely it makes me sick." At the risk of sounding harsh, this might be part of the problem. People who are desperate, in whatever way, are a turn-off. Have you ever met a guy who is desperate for sex? Not very attractive, is it? If you're desperate to be with somebody, that shows, and it's just as much a turn off as the guy who is desperate for sex. People like confidence and independence is healthy.
If that's the problem, what do you do? Learn to like yourself. Do things you enjoy. Build a life you're proud of. Find things you admire about people and cultivate them in yourself. Focus less on finding a boyfriend, which is a harsh way of establishing your self-worth, because it leaves your self-esteem at the mercy of luck, and focus more on finding yourself.
I have one other observation. You wrote "I'm so fucking lonely it makes me sick." At the risk of sounding harsh, this might be part of the problem. People who are desperate, in whatever way, are a turn-off. Have you ever met a guy who is desperate for sex? Not very attractive, is it? If you're desperate to be with somebody, that shows, and it's just as much a turn off as the guy who is desperate for sex. People like confidence and independence is healthy.
If that's the problem, what do you do? Learn to like yourself. Do things you enjoy. Build a life you're proud of. Find things you admire about people and cultivate them in yourself. Focus less on finding a boyfriend, which is a harsh way of establishing your self-worth, because it leaves your self-esteem at the mercy of luck, and focus more on finding yourself.
13
Listen, I'm sorry for your misery and your loneliness. I share them, off and on. It can be a really cold world, sometimes.
I think one thing you need to do - for yourself, really, and not even so that you can find somebody but just so you can live more easily - is to try to approach life with less rigid expectation. There's nothing wrong with meeting somebody and dating them, fooling around with them, maybe even falling in love, without knowing initially where it's going. You're limiting yourself (and stressing out the guys you find) by starting from a point of limitation - long-term dating only - rather than being open to whatever happens.
Open your mind, and maybe, if you can get to feeling more comfortable with it, your legs. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Some of those things are good, happy things that you will never know if you don't let yourself discover them.
There has been pie before; there will be pie again.
I think one thing you need to do - for yourself, really, and not even so that you can find somebody but just so you can live more easily - is to try to approach life with less rigid expectation. There's nothing wrong with meeting somebody and dating them, fooling around with them, maybe even falling in love, without knowing initially where it's going. You're limiting yourself (and stressing out the guys you find) by starting from a point of limitation - long-term dating only - rather than being open to whatever happens.
Open your mind, and maybe, if you can get to feeling more comfortable with it, your legs. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Some of those things are good, happy things that you will never know if you don't let yourself discover them.
There has been pie before; there will be pie again.
14
The hard truth is that some people never meet the person they can stick with. Some of us 'end up alone.' Then what? Life is so full of happiness there for the taking if you will only find it. Having a lifemate is not the only way to be happy. Make peace with yourself... You will only end up more ready to find someone and more capable of being a good partner. And if you end up alone, you'll be happy anyway. Love your friends more fully. Take long brisk walks. Appreciate what you DO have. Learn to have some emotional control, just some... Life can be good even for the solitary.
15
Great advice, Dan. My wife and I both started out as each other's "one-night stands that stuck around", and now I really couldn't be happier.
I'll also echo Matt's sentiment that if you stop exclusively focusing on having an ltr, good things can happen. I never thought I'd be married in a happy, stable relationship at this age; I wouldn't be in this position if I hadn't let go of my tendency to try and force myself into long-term relationships.
I'll also echo Matt's sentiment that if you stop exclusively focusing on having an ltr, good things can happen. I never thought I'd be married in a happy, stable relationship at this age; I wouldn't be in this position if I hadn't let go of my tendency to try and force myself into long-term relationships.
16
Like her I'm only attracted to people who won't stick around. I love the chase, too, especially when all along in the back of my head I knew it wouldn't work. I tell myself that's not the case, but the facts is the facts. I know her story has the trimmings of honesty and directness and all those good relationship things, but her man didn't seem to have it in him, and you can tell, you can tell. She could tell. When someone real and serious comes around, I find them unattractive. In a way I'm addicted to the "take care of me" part of the ensuing depression.
17
I also could have written this letter once: It sounds straight from the pages of my old diaries. I went through every form of heartache you can imagine and when I was 35 I met my sweetie in a bar right by my house. We were two brokenhearts passing each other by for years before we simply made eye contact, struck up a conversation and that was it.
Keep your chin up. Strive to accept and love who you are right now, and enjoy being single while you still are. (It sounds cliche but it's SO true: If you don't love who you are right now, then why will anyone else?) Someday a gal that sounds as great as you are will meet a terrific guy and you'll wonder why you spent your single years so sad all the time!
Keep your chin up. Strive to accept and love who you are right now, and enjoy being single while you still are. (It sounds cliche but it's SO true: If you don't love who you are right now, then why will anyone else?) Someday a gal that sounds as great as you are will meet a terrific guy and you'll wonder why you spent your single years so sad all the time!
18
Pretty much what everyone else has said. Don't give up. Don't try to be someone you're not. Do find stuff to keep you occupied and keep you from stewing in loneliness.
Who knows, maybe in a year or two you'll be happily in a relationship and giving advice to someone else who is in your place right now?
Who knows, maybe in a year or two you'll be happily in a relationship and giving advice to someone else who is in your place right now?
19
Have you tried dating guys that aren't trying to pick you up? Have you made the first move? If you are that attractive AND smart, you are probably dozens of nice, decent, smart guys completely enamored with you that don't have the nerve to ask you out. If you fit yr description of yrself, yr probably intimidating as hell. You gotta grant the d-bags you've encountered one thing, they think highly enough of themselves to risk rejection from you.
20
FYI, there are a lot of good guys out there. Sometimes it is a battle to meet women because their are so many guys out there who will use you like that. Remember, those types of guys are usually better at picking up women because they practice and work at it. The know that and work it. Meanwhile there are good guys who are looking for a relationship who are not as smooth initially, not as forward, and who do not do well meeting women.
A female friend of mine one day explained how she was told by her therapist that whenever she felt that knot of attraction in her stomach, to run the other way. It wasn't love, it was fear. She started dating other types of guys and giving them a chance. She ended up married with a child. Her and her husband shared interests and hobbies. She is happy.
A female friend of mine one day explained how she was told by her therapist that whenever she felt that knot of attraction in her stomach, to run the other way. It wasn't love, it was fear. She started dating other types of guys and giving them a chance. She ended up married with a child. Her and her husband shared interests and hobbies. She is happy.
21
SHIT, I'd really think about Dan's advice to loosen up on the "no sex until I'm in a serious relationship" policy. I was a serial monogamist all through college and grad school (I'm 30), and when my last relationship crashed and burned, I decided it was time to have a little fun. It's the best decision I've ever made--it was really hard at first, but there's something really affirming about picking up a man with the understanding that you're just in it for sex. It's a powerful feeling. But you have to roll with the punches--it doesn't always work. I've been on so many bad dates that I started blogging them (http://tekmessa.wordpress.com/category/b… )--and one thing that helps is to look for the absurd. If the date is awful, at least you get a good story. So hang in there, things will get better. Don't change those basic--wonderful--qualities you describe; work on your outlook. It'll happen when you're not looking for it. HUGS!
22
I can relate to this letter and the feelings of hopeless loneliness. I too felt like I had a lot going for me, but just didn't seem to be able to meet women that didn't end up on the friendship train (I would have happily accepted meaningless NSA sex). I was supremely lonely and wondered if there wasn't something wrong with me.
The solution for me was online dating. You have to pursue it like a job; go on a lot of dates, meet a lot of people, spent time and effort into perusing the searches and sending emails. I was going on dates 2 or 3 times a week. When I met the right one, I knew it within two dates. By the third or forth date I told the other women that I had met someone and wouldn't be dating anymore. We will be celebrating out one-year anniversary on January 6th.
And now, everything is different. I am exceedingly happy and confident. Life is all roses.
So hang in there SHIT! Give online dating a try (Stranger Personals look promising if you are in Seattle). Spend a lot of your free time with friends. Have fun. Do stuff. If everything you say about you is true, your man is out there.
Oh yeah, you certainly not too old (maybe too young?). I'm 43 and the love of my life is 45.
The solution for me was online dating. You have to pursue it like a job; go on a lot of dates, meet a lot of people, spent time and effort into perusing the searches and sending emails. I was going on dates 2 or 3 times a week. When I met the right one, I knew it within two dates. By the third or forth date I told the other women that I had met someone and wouldn't be dating anymore. We will be celebrating out one-year anniversary on January 6th.
And now, everything is different. I am exceedingly happy and confident. Life is all roses.
So hang in there SHIT! Give online dating a try (Stranger Personals look promising if you are in Seattle). Spend a lot of your free time with friends. Have fun. Do stuff. If everything you say about you is true, your man is out there.
Oh yeah, you certainly not too old (maybe too young?). I'm 43 and the love of my life is 45.
23
I just saw the headline and it occurred to me that Bill Nye the Science Guy is probably a total freak in the sack.
24
p.s.— When I met my partner we were both at the absolute best places in our lives: We were happy, had accepted who we were and discovered we really like our OWN company. And, poof!, like magic—we met each other! So of course we never noticed each other all those years when we lived a block apart, because we were broken-hearted, and completely absorbed in our own misery. Who would be attracted to that? But it is easy to attract wonderful people when you feel wonderful, too.
(I know it's easy for me and all the other shacked-up people on this board to give you advice, but we've all been there, we haven't forgot, and we all made it through. Hang in there).
(I know it's easy for me and all the other shacked-up people on this board to give you advice, but we've all been there, we haven't forgot, and we all made it through. Hang in there).
25
Does it happen a lot that you are unable to eat or sleep? Perhaps you have clinical depression, which, if untreated, can get in the way of forming relationships.
28
I've been where you are, sister... And usually, I've found that the quicker I moved on from one person to the next, the faster the bad feelings and self doubt disappeared. Old assholes became memories and lessons learned. You can sit there and feel sorry for yourself, or you can decide to move on and be a positive energy towards the next guy.
I guess, it's also good not to have your expectations too high for what you'll get. Life isn't a play - you can't just cast guys as the role you want them to play. You can hope that you'll get what you desire, but you can't force something to happen that can never be.
I guess, it's also good not to have your expectations too high for what you'll get. Life isn't a play - you can't just cast guys as the role you want them to play. You can hope that you'll get what you desire, but you can't force something to happen that can never be.
29
please see a doctor/therapist for what sounds like unhappiness turned into serious depression (no eating/sleeping, etc.)
27 is young! develop your friendships and interests. lighten up your dating expectations and rules (casual sex parters can become good friends or more). and don't let your lonliness trap you in an unhappy relationship should one present itself (I speak from experience there).
focus on getting yourself happier and heathier; the rest will follow.
27 is young! develop your friendships and interests. lighten up your dating expectations and rules (casual sex parters can become good friends or more). and don't let your lonliness trap you in an unhappy relationship should one present itself (I speak from experience there).
focus on getting yourself happier and heathier; the rest will follow.
30
Chin up, dear.
Hang in there. Love yourself, and grow in love with your own company. Take the pressure off, you have much to offer, and try to not grasp for a serious long term relationship, but for happy and healthy interactions with others.
Best wishes.
Hang in there. Love yourself, and grow in love with your own company. Take the pressure off, you have much to offer, and try to not grasp for a serious long term relationship, but for happy and healthy interactions with others.
Best wishes.
31
@24, I think being happy with yourself before you go searching for someone else is great advice. I know it was true for myself.
32
It sounds a lot like you place too much importance on sex, or at least confuse sex with love. They aren't the same thing, and it's important to realize that. If you don't place sex on the pedestal that it seems like you place it on, it might hurt less when you realize that the men or women you have great sex with are not necessarily the ones with whom you will have great relationships. Not to suggest that those things are mutually exclusive (they aren't!), but it might help you to see the difference so that when/if a relationship ends or fails to develop further you aren't so devastated. I live in Toronto too, and not everyone in the city is an asshole so I promise that there is hope for you yet. Happy holidays, and all the best in 2010.
34
While I will buy into the idea that (ugh, dreaded word) "desperation" is essentially relationship-repellent, I don't really buy it that you have to be 100% happy with yourself, %100 confident, %100 whole and fulfilled and at peace to find the other person (@17 refers to two broken hearts finding each other). I also don't buy it that it will happen when you're not looking - that's just way too easy to say (and you hear it a lot from well-meaning folks). And for someone who is smart like you, pretending to not look would just be silly.
What I do buy is that you have to keep trying, have to hang in there, and have to take of yourself to make sure that you can hang in there as long as it takes. So please stop beating yourself up (I know, easier said than done) and give yourself credit for your efforts. Like @9 said, love is hard. And like @5 said: their loss. Really, it is.
What I do buy is that you have to keep trying, have to hang in there, and have to take of yourself to make sure that you can hang in there as long as it takes. So please stop beating yourself up (I know, easier said than done) and give yourself credit for your efforts. Like @9 said, love is hard. And like @5 said: their loss. Really, it is.
35
SHIT, just try to be ok with yourself as you are, and embrace what you like about yourself. Leave the rules in the past--there's no sense in limiting your pool by imposing arbitrary rules that run contrary to what most guys our age are looking for anyway. If you actually want to have sex with a boy--and he doesn't want to wait around a few months to get it--just do it (responsibly, of course). See how it works out.
But, SHIT, whatever you do in the next few years, do NOT let your married guy friends turn into cock blocks. I have similar issues to yours--and all of my happily married friends comment on how ridiculous it is that I, who am supposedly smart/cute/funny and definitely responsible and sensitive to others, haven't found a decent man who will stick around... while everyone around me (even my chubby friends with negative self-images!) is getting married. But being surrounded by dudes with rings on becomes a problem when you're trying to meet single guys. Just something to be aware of...
But, SHIT, whatever you do in the next few years, do NOT let your married guy friends turn into cock blocks. I have similar issues to yours--and all of my happily married friends comment on how ridiculous it is that I, who am supposedly smart/cute/funny and definitely responsible and sensitive to others, haven't found a decent man who will stick around... while everyone around me (even my chubby friends with negative self-images!) is getting married. But being surrounded by dudes with rings on becomes a problem when you're trying to meet single guys. Just something to be aware of...
36
I met my OtherHalf on-line 10 years ago. Today, we have three year old twins and life is good. (When someone already has two kids but is willing to start the kid thing all over again at 48, then you know he loves you.) But, before meeting him, I had a string of loser boyfriends, cried myself to sleep almost every night, and never imagined that I find someone who would appreciate and value the qualities and traits that I had to offer. Seemed like most gay guys just wanted a quick lay and then off to the next conquest. Keep your chin up. You sound like a good catch and it will happen for you. Sometimes life is like a fairy tale and unfortunately you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your version of Prince Charming. And don't even forget - A man is there to enhance your life, not be your life.
37
I'm really surprised that noboby's suggested this yet: if the no-sex-until-serious thing is non-negotiable for you, have you considered joining a church? It needn't be scary fundamentalists -- hell, it can be the quakers or the unitarians. But you're much more likely to meet guys who will respect that limit amongst the faithful, any decently sized church will probably have singles functions, and in the meantime... it's a church, and I hear they're decent places to be when you're feeling ill-at-ease with the universe.
38
The only other thing I have to add is a favorite aphorism of a very good friend of mine:
Love is not something you can seek out; love is the hunter.
It's absolutely true. You cannot catch love in its native environment. It is sly and cagey and made of shadows. Turn your back on it, though, live your life without seeking it, forget it's there, and suddenly WHAM! One day you're in love and you don't even know it yet.
Love is not something you can seek out; love is the hunter.
It's absolutely true. You cannot catch love in its native environment. It is sly and cagey and made of shadows. Turn your back on it, though, live your life without seeking it, forget it's there, and suddenly WHAM! One day you're in love and you don't even know it yet.
39
Man, I could have totally written your letter. I'm 24 and NOT in a relationship - so I'm right in your boat, believe me. And this is my major life lesson of 2009:
Better to be single than be in a shitty relationship.
Make some friends who are older than you and going through divorces from hell. Be a support for them. It's the best way to get perspective. And perspective is going to help you out right now.
Also - I used to live in Chicago and had the worst seasonal depression. Moved south to New Orleans as fast as I could and it's been much better, even if I haven't met a lot of dudes. Do you have a dog/cat, or use a full spectrum aka happy light? That might help.
I also second the recs for one night stands. A good one - a really good one - can "last" you a long time. It's totally ok to dream on stuff for a while, even if it isn't going anywhere. Just make sure you have actual life-goals and friendships and other stuff to concentrate on.
I hear you. It'll get better. Love, your southern compatriot
Better to be single than be in a shitty relationship.
Make some friends who are older than you and going through divorces from hell. Be a support for them. It's the best way to get perspective. And perspective is going to help you out right now.
Also - I used to live in Chicago and had the worst seasonal depression. Moved south to New Orleans as fast as I could and it's been much better, even if I haven't met a lot of dudes. Do you have a dog/cat, or use a full spectrum aka happy light? That might help.
I also second the recs for one night stands. A good one - a really good one - can "last" you a long time. It's totally ok to dream on stuff for a while, even if it isn't going anywhere. Just make sure you have actual life-goals and friendships and other stuff to concentrate on.
I hear you. It'll get better. Love, your southern compatriot
40
SHIT: I have a good friend in Toronto who's 31 and single, and he's also looking for a LTR. He's a sweetheart. I'm certain there are many guys in Toronto who are like him. You just haven't found the right guy for you. I found that after I'd been with some not-so-nice guys that I was able to figure out what was important to me in a boyfriend. I also worked on becoming the person I really wanted to be. Shortly thereafter, I met the man who would become my husband.
41
I felt like SHIT many many times. I didn't have a steady relationship until my 30s. That lasted two years. About five years later I had another that lasted 8 months. That's it. And I quit going out. I haven't been out in about a decade.
But after all those years of being alone, I found there were def things I didn't like about being in a relationship as well. Mainly that obligation of having to answer to someone all the time. So I don't mind not being in a relationship as much anymore. I do miss sex, but that's about it. You slow down as you get older, so while I felt agonized at 27 I'd calmed down a lot by 47.
You may not meet someone. Many people don't. But it's easier to take when you get older. Small comfort perhaps, but it's better than no comfort.
But after all those years of being alone, I found there were def things I didn't like about being in a relationship as well. Mainly that obligation of having to answer to someone all the time. So I don't mind not being in a relationship as much anymore. I do miss sex, but that's about it. You slow down as you get older, so while I felt agonized at 27 I'd calmed down a lot by 47.
You may not meet someone. Many people don't. But it's easier to take when you get older. Small comfort perhaps, but it's better than no comfort.
42
What I can tell you kept me sane was having a purpose larger than my dating life. I became a Big Sister through Big Brothers/Big Sisters. If you have an organization like that in Toronto, look into it. When you know that someone else looks up to you and looks forward to spending time with you, and that you're a positive role model for a young person who might be in a crisis situation, it tends to make the desperation of other facets of your life seem less worrisome, less intense, and you relax a bit more regarding your search.
I spent 3 years dating guys like you've described--not bad guys, but just not the right fit for me. I was ready to give up, but I eventually met my boyfriend. Maybe if you didn't cast these guys in such a negative light, it would help? At first, I was upset that so many guys seemed to only want to get to the point where they felt they could reasonably expect sex, and then they were ready to move on. But the fact is, I wasn't compatible with them for anything long term, and trying to force that just because I was lonely would have been a disaster.
I spent 3 years dating guys like you've described--not bad guys, but just not the right fit for me. I was ready to give up, but I eventually met my boyfriend. Maybe if you didn't cast these guys in such a negative light, it would help? At first, I was upset that so many guys seemed to only want to get to the point where they felt they could reasonably expect sex, and then they were ready to move on. But the fact is, I wasn't compatible with them for anything long term, and trying to force that just because I was lonely would have been a disaster.
43
In all this time of reading Slog comments, I have never seen such a kind outpouring of support. I didn't know you guys had it in you! Way to go! And as a 50-year-old woman about to enter the dating scene sometime next year after leaving 30 years of an often-difficult marriage, I can say that marriage is not all it's cracked up to be; companionship is. Good luck, sister!
44
Second to all who suggested working on getting along with yourself and turning around any depression.
ALSO: If you're serious about meeting someone for a LTR, tell everyone you know. Tell your friends, your family members, your coworkers, your hairdresser, your dentist, that you want to meet someone special. Run down your list of "must-haves" for a man and make sure there's nothing stupid on there. (Don't get me started on my ex-roomie who only dated doctors, who uniformly treated her like shit.)
Be prepared to meet some men who aren't your usual type, and remember: your usual type has SUCKED! Maybe someone from a different background, or race, or religion, or profession, or age might be right for you, and you're not currently looking there. Also, be prepared to be surprised at some of the men you're set up with by people you know -- it doesn't mean they hate you, just that they have different ideas as to what you might be looking for.
Good luck!
ALSO: If you're serious about meeting someone for a LTR, tell everyone you know. Tell your friends, your family members, your coworkers, your hairdresser, your dentist, that you want to meet someone special. Run down your list of "must-haves" for a man and make sure there's nothing stupid on there. (Don't get me started on my ex-roomie who only dated doctors, who uniformly treated her like shit.)
Be prepared to meet some men who aren't your usual type, and remember: your usual type has SUCKED! Maybe someone from a different background, or race, or religion, or profession, or age might be right for you, and you're not currently looking there. Also, be prepared to be surprised at some of the men you're set up with by people you know -- it doesn't mean they hate you, just that they have different ideas as to what you might be looking for.
Good luck!
45
I hope you don't mind, but I think you need a little tough love at this point. You complain about being lonely, say "I need to get on with things, but...", rationalize that at 27 maybe you're "just too old" (?!). It's time to start taking responsibility for your feelings.
Seriously, LW, you need to stop waiting for that knight in shining armour. Where are your friends? Why aren't you spending your evenings cooking with them, talking to them, partying with them? When you feel bad, you have to get proactive. Get out and get involved in something bigger than yourself. At 27, you are just beginning real adulthood, and you need to find a calling that is bigger than a 9-5 job and a boyfriend. I'm not saying those are bad things, of course, but there has got to be something more that drives you. This is the time in your life you should be tackling those big goals, BEFORE you settle down and have kids with that special guy.
Life is about more than just love. You seem to be caught up in the idea that your life should be a fairy tale instead of a quest for something greater. You already know that you are more than just a pretty face, so it's time to start acting like it. Use those brains and do something interesting, something exciting, something that makes you stand out from the crowd. Become an expert at something, and teach others how to do it. Tackle something really difficult -- you'll gain a ton of wisdom, even if you fail. Help someone who doesn't have what you have.
LW, there is no bigger waste of time for an attractive, intelligent woman than worrying yourself into tears about romance. This is the time you should be filling your life up, all on your own. Your dream man will show up when you least expect it, but he should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
More...
Seriously, LW, you need to stop waiting for that knight in shining armour. Where are your friends? Why aren't you spending your evenings cooking with them, talking to them, partying with them? When you feel bad, you have to get proactive. Get out and get involved in something bigger than yourself. At 27, you are just beginning real adulthood, and you need to find a calling that is bigger than a 9-5 job and a boyfriend. I'm not saying those are bad things, of course, but there has got to be something more that drives you. This is the time in your life you should be tackling those big goals, BEFORE you settle down and have kids with that special guy.
Life is about more than just love. You seem to be caught up in the idea that your life should be a fairy tale instead of a quest for something greater. You already know that you are more than just a pretty face, so it's time to start acting like it. Use those brains and do something interesting, something exciting, something that makes you stand out from the crowd. Become an expert at something, and teach others how to do it. Tackle something really difficult -- you'll gain a ton of wisdom, even if you fail. Help someone who doesn't have what you have.
LW, there is no bigger waste of time for an attractive, intelligent woman than worrying yourself into tears about romance. This is the time you should be filling your life up, all on your own. Your dream man will show up when you least expect it, but he should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
46
Most importantly avoid the online trap. Anyone you could possibly meet online whether that be Craiglist, MySpace, or any of the paid websites is trash., making you no better than a prostitute. Meeting people face-to-face in the bar is the tried and true way of finding a LTR. Do people meet someone special online? Sure, every once in a while, but mostly the people online are out to hurt you in more ways then just using you for sex and many times with tragic consequences.
47
Don't do one-night stands if you don't like them. I don't and wont. It doesn't preclude you from getting a relationship (I have never found it a detriment to getting one).
49
Thanks, Irena. Yes, a lot of supportive responses are nice, but as a happy single I find it hard to find the "don't worry, it'll happen!" responses healthy. Come on, SHIT! Get your act together and get out there living life.
50
@ 48, brush up on your reading comprehension:
I'm not meeting these men at bars, or at clubs—I'm meeting them at coffee shops and conferences.
51
Lots of advice here, and I have little to add except to say that 27 is far too young to feel this way. You're young and have a lot of things going for you - love yourself, and love your life. The dude thing will work out when it's supposed to work out.
The shitty dudes you've dealt with aren't worth making yourself feel this way ... especially at 27 years old.
The shitty dudes you've dealt with aren't worth making yourself feel this way ... especially at 27 years old.
52
I think you might want to really think about what you are trying to accomplish with delaying having sex with people. I am a 24 year old woman, and I expect sex within the first few dates. I wouldn't want to wait to see if we were sexually compatible and then find out after a few months that we weren't. It's not that my relationships are heavily biased towards sex, but, as an adult its an important component. Maybe this is an issue that's prematurely eliminating some of the guys you only have a date or two with that would actually be really good for you. How long you wait to have sex in no way directly effects how long or how good a relationship is.
53
Dan - great letter for NYE. NYE and Valentine's Day are two days where there seems to be a lot of pressure to be in a relationship, so it's easy to feel deficient when I'm not in one on those days. Good to remember I'm not alone in my singlehood tonight, and great to be reminded of the wisdom of all the good advice on here. None of it is new, but it's great to remember.
And SHIT, you are not alone, there are many, many people looking for some romantic companionship. Almost everyone has to go through the ups and downs and false starts you are experiencing. Mainly, hang in there.
And SHIT, you are not alone, there are many, many people looking for some romantic companionship. Almost everyone has to go through the ups and downs and false starts you are experiencing. Mainly, hang in there.
54
I had ONE serious boyfriend before my 30s. The right one didn't show up until almoslt 40. It was terribly frustrating and I feel your pain. Hang in there!
55
@46
"Anyone you could meet online... is trash"?
"Making you no better than a prostitute"?
I can't decide whether you're That Guy who opines vehemently on things to cover up the fact that he's completely ignorant about them, or whether you're just a troll. Either way, though, you... well, you really kind of need to get the hyperbole under control. It's ridiculous.
Your hit ratio online is going to be lower than in the flesh, but the effort invested is also low. It makes a nice side bet, but not a good primary strategy.
"Anyone you could meet online... is trash"?
"Making you no better than a prostitute"?
I can't decide whether you're That Guy who opines vehemently on things to cover up the fact that he's completely ignorant about them, or whether you're just a troll. Either way, though, you... well, you really kind of need to get the hyperbole under control. It's ridiculous.
Your hit ratio online is going to be lower than in the flesh, but the effort invested is also low. It makes a nice side bet, but not a good primary strategy.
56
@23 Ewww. I doubt it. Met him once. I just don't see it. He's a showman, remember.
And I'm one of those "Happiness [insert boyfriend, whatever] is a butterfly," people, SHIT. You know, look the other way and it comes to you (not that it's come to me yet. Lately anyway). And if you're happy with yourself in the meantime, you'll at least be enjoying yourself and attracting other happy people.
Like whoever else said, holding out, as such, is just going to attract the guys who see you as a conquest -- and possibly repel guys who see you as hung up about sex (maybe the church thing is a good idea. Or -- hate to say it -- eHarmony, who are supposed to be Christians. They might have similar values). And how fun is it to have to wait to have sex just to be in love? Lordy. Sex and love aren't the same thing -- you can easily have one, either, without the other, and they evolve over time. Waiting for sex and love to happen at the same time is like expecting orgasms to occur at the same time -- doesn't really happen as often as the movies say it does.
Anyway, my advice -- chill out, meet people (it's a matter of volume!), take a pottery class, get out.
And I'm one of those "Happiness [insert boyfriend, whatever] is a butterfly," people, SHIT. You know, look the other way and it comes to you (not that it's come to me yet. Lately anyway). And if you're happy with yourself in the meantime, you'll at least be enjoying yourself and attracting other happy people.
Like whoever else said, holding out, as such, is just going to attract the guys who see you as a conquest -- and possibly repel guys who see you as hung up about sex (maybe the church thing is a good idea. Or -- hate to say it -- eHarmony, who are supposed to be Christians. They might have similar values). And how fun is it to have to wait to have sex just to be in love? Lordy. Sex and love aren't the same thing -- you can easily have one, either, without the other, and they evolve over time. Waiting for sex and love to happen at the same time is like expecting orgasms to occur at the same time -- doesn't really happen as often as the movies say it does.
Anyway, my advice -- chill out, meet people (it's a matter of volume!), take a pottery class, get out.
57
I am... eighteen, in high school, gay, and wanting to go to a school dance before my pre-college career is up. I know, totally small-scale by comparison but I can understand the self-doubt and stuff and I haven't even gone out with anyone, just had a few crushes.
Am I hopeful? Not really. :( But I suppose it's just high school.
Am I hopeful? Not really. :( But I suppose it's just high school.
58
@47
Well thank god someone finally said this. I don't do them either. Not because I am a prude, or a Christian, or inhibited. It's cause they're just not *good*. I've tried and they always suck. Sex w/o any emotional component is basically like masturbating. Only, it's worse because it's awkward after because there's some fucking random in your bed you have to small talk with. No thank you, especially considering sex with an emotional component is just so ridiculously good: tear-each-other's-clothes-off, multiple orgasms all around, camping out in the bedroom for days, etc. Drunken sex with cute, flirty dude at the bar? Yea-not so much. Just a reminder that you're not having the sex you want. The pocket rocket & a little porn is faaaaaaar superior any day of the week.
Well thank god someone finally said this. I don't do them either. Not because I am a prude, or a Christian, or inhibited. It's cause they're just not *good*. I've tried and they always suck. Sex w/o any emotional component is basically like masturbating. Only, it's worse because it's awkward after because there's some fucking random in your bed you have to small talk with. No thank you, especially considering sex with an emotional component is just so ridiculously good: tear-each-other's-clothes-off, multiple orgasms all around, camping out in the bedroom for days, etc. Drunken sex with cute, flirty dude at the bar? Yea-not so much. Just a reminder that you're not having the sex you want. The pocket rocket & a little porn is faaaaaaar superior any day of the week.
61
I totally agree with Kim_in_Portland: Chin up, dear!
I'm sure that you are hurting, and yes, at one time in my life I could have written your letter too. Keep on doing what you are doing, but ease up on yourself. Just because you're not in a LTR NOW doesn't mean that you won't find a great bf or husband down the line.
Dan's advice is sound, and I hope that you find fulfillment and happiness. It's pretty incredible how universal the experience is, and how many commenters have felt the same way.
Stay Beautiful, SHIT!
I'm sure that you are hurting, and yes, at one time in my life I could have written your letter too. Keep on doing what you are doing, but ease up on yourself. Just because you're not in a LTR NOW doesn't mean that you won't find a great bf or husband down the line.
Dan's advice is sound, and I hope that you find fulfillment and happiness. It's pretty incredible how universal the experience is, and how many commenters have felt the same way.
Stay Beautiful, SHIT!
62
Take a night class in something, anything. Not a lecture—art classes are good, because you're actively engaged in something alongside others. There's room to interact. (Also think music, yoga, carpentry...)
In a regular class you're "required" to go, and you hang around with the same group of people for a season. You meet a variety of people in a non-cruising environment. It's gentle, stimulating, and therapeutic.
The best relationships and jobs and bands I've ever known are the result of networking. Don't hyperfocus on A Relationship. Just do what interests you, and do it among other people. As an artist I'm tempted to hide and protect myself (and protect others from myself), but the real magic comes out when you let yourself be part of society. (At one point that meant joining a Depression self-help group, but even that was magical at the time.) You will find your peeps.
In a regular class you're "required" to go, and you hang around with the same group of people for a season. You meet a variety of people in a non-cruising environment. It's gentle, stimulating, and therapeutic.
The best relationships and jobs and bands I've ever known are the result of networking. Don't hyperfocus on A Relationship. Just do what interests you, and do it among other people. As an artist I'm tempted to hide and protect myself (and protect others from myself), but the real magic comes out when you let yourself be part of society. (At one point that meant joining a Depression self-help group, but even that was magical at the time.) You will find your peeps.
64
I'm in the same place you are, dear. I'll be 27 in February and have NEVER had a serious relationship. I mean, I've had a few casual relationships where we were more than friends, but I've never called anyone boyfriend/girlfriend.
I also suffer from depression and social anxiety, so I've had a lot to overcome, but the most of the suggestions here about being active in your single life are right on. You won't meet anyone sitting in your living room feeling sorry for yourself.
So yes, get out, but don't make finding someone the goal of getting active in a hobby. If you're just there to meet people, it won't happen either. It's the hardest thing in the world, but you really do have to put the idea of a relationship out of your mind if you want to develop one. The few instances where I clicked with someone (one was long distance and one moved away before anything serious developed) happened when being in a relationship was the last thing on my mind.
Of course, the volume dating where being in a relationship is the only focus can work to. But you should be in a stable place in your own life so every date that doesn't work out isn't the end of the world.
I also suffer from depression and social anxiety, so I've had a lot to overcome, but the most of the suggestions here about being active in your single life are right on. You won't meet anyone sitting in your living room feeling sorry for yourself.
So yes, get out, but don't make finding someone the goal of getting active in a hobby. If you're just there to meet people, it won't happen either. It's the hardest thing in the world, but you really do have to put the idea of a relationship out of your mind if you want to develop one. The few instances where I clicked with someone (one was long distance and one moved away before anything serious developed) happened when being in a relationship was the last thing on my mind.
Of course, the volume dating where being in a relationship is the only focus can work to. But you should be in a stable place in your own life so every date that doesn't work out isn't the end of the world.
65
To all those people advising SHIT to stop looking and love will drop into her lap: shut the fuck up. Congratulations for being extremely lucky, but no one can count on that. Jesus Christ.
67
Excellent advice, Irena @45. SHIT, why don't you make a list of big goals to accomplish by the time you're 30? Run a marathon, climb a mountain, go on a volunteer vacation, join a charity board, learn to knit, learn a language or an instrument, go to pastry school, run for a local office. Whatever you are actually passionate about. Meeting people might be a side benefit of these goals, but they should be things that you'll be happy to have accomplished.
Good luck... New Year's used to be a really tough time for me (whether or not I was in a relationship). So maybe in a few weeks, when there's not so much focus on the passage of time, you'll feel a little better and have a little more perspective on your situation.
Good luck... New Year's used to be a really tough time for me (whether or not I was in a relationship). So maybe in a few weeks, when there's not so much focus on the passage of time, you'll feel a little better and have a little more perspective on your situation.
68
shit, if nothing else at least be glad there are people willing to have sex with you! Don't take that for granted, a lot of us aren't that lucky.
69
@65 - while possible, I kind of doubt it. It will probably happen at some point. It's the in-between times that aren't so fun.
70
@52--you're absolutely right, and I'd reiterate to SHIT to loosen up a bit about sex. You don't want to find you're not compatible with someone sexually until after you're emotionally involved. I made this mistake and it turned out the guy was impotent and unwilling to do anything about it. So in the meantime get yourself a vibrator, listen to all the people urging you to get out and be good to YOURSELF and stop focusing on whether you find someone or not. I forget which commenter said it, but a man should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
71
SHIT, First off, stop bawling. You'll look all puffy and red later and it won't look like it's from the cold. Second, please go to the attached website
http://www.toronto.com/guide/newyearseve…
Select a party or two that you think would be fun, maybe somewhere close to you or somewhere you have been before and felt comfortable at or somewhere you always wanted to go. Third, eat, shower, put on some makeup, do your hair and dress comfortably with just a little something, something showing. Finally, put on the best smile you can find and go to the party with absolutely no preconceived notion about how the night will turn out. Whatever happens, happens. Don't drink alcohol, it makes you too vulnerable and too depressed, stick with tonic and lime or cranberry juice. Circulate for awhile then find a bar stool that allows you a good view of the room. Sit, watch, make mental notes about who you'd like to come up and talk to you or ask you to dance. Dig deep, channel that inner confidence and remember to smile. Smiling can be contagious and you never know who is watching. Make eye contact without staring, sip your drink and think about what you've been through today and how much better you will feel tomorrow. When you are approached, be yourself, carefree and without any expectations. If that's not the right guy for you for now, be cordial but stand your ground. Keep your chin up until the one you had your eye on comes around. As the evening progresses, talk, dance and have fun. When he finally asks you to go home with him, if things feel right and you think you would enjoy it, say yes. Let him know that you don't usually do this sort of thing but had decided that you really are only there for the SEX. If he doesn't question you about it you know where he stands and exactly what he wants from you. If he does question you, he'll probably still go for the sex, but may think he's not good enough for you. Tell him that emotionally you prefer going in with an NSA attitude and want to let the chips fall where they may. Enjoy, be careful, be safe and remember it's only sex. When tomorrow comes take it from there. It beats going in hoping for an LTR that doesn't materialize and being crushed all over again.
Repeat as needed until the right guy comes along. Stop beating yourself up and continue to be the good, loving person you know you are. When you least expect it is when everything will fall into place for you.
Hold your head high, walk with your chin up and don't forget to smile. It's the second best thing you can do with your lips.
Happy New Year, SHIT. Things will work out, you'll see. They don't look like they could get much worse.
More...
http://www.toronto.com/guide/newyearseve…
Select a party or two that you think would be fun, maybe somewhere close to you or somewhere you have been before and felt comfortable at or somewhere you always wanted to go. Third, eat, shower, put on some makeup, do your hair and dress comfortably with just a little something, something showing. Finally, put on the best smile you can find and go to the party with absolutely no preconceived notion about how the night will turn out. Whatever happens, happens. Don't drink alcohol, it makes you too vulnerable and too depressed, stick with tonic and lime or cranberry juice. Circulate for awhile then find a bar stool that allows you a good view of the room. Sit, watch, make mental notes about who you'd like to come up and talk to you or ask you to dance. Dig deep, channel that inner confidence and remember to smile. Smiling can be contagious and you never know who is watching. Make eye contact without staring, sip your drink and think about what you've been through today and how much better you will feel tomorrow. When you are approached, be yourself, carefree and without any expectations. If that's not the right guy for you for now, be cordial but stand your ground. Keep your chin up until the one you had your eye on comes around. As the evening progresses, talk, dance and have fun. When he finally asks you to go home with him, if things feel right and you think you would enjoy it, say yes. Let him know that you don't usually do this sort of thing but had decided that you really are only there for the SEX. If he doesn't question you about it you know where he stands and exactly what he wants from you. If he does question you, he'll probably still go for the sex, but may think he's not good enough for you. Tell him that emotionally you prefer going in with an NSA attitude and want to let the chips fall where they may. Enjoy, be careful, be safe and remember it's only sex. When tomorrow comes take it from there. It beats going in hoping for an LTR that doesn't materialize and being crushed all over again.
Repeat as needed until the right guy comes along. Stop beating yourself up and continue to be the good, loving person you know you are. When you least expect it is when everything will fall into place for you.
Hold your head high, walk with your chin up and don't forget to smile. It's the second best thing you can do with your lips.
Happy New Year, SHIT. Things will work out, you'll see. They don't look like they could get much worse.
72
I hate to echo this comment, but after decades of several LTRs that fizzled, my str8 brother has definitely found the love-of-his-life on eHarmony. Its certainly not for the majority of hipsters and wanna-bes that read The Stranger, but it seems to actually work for the mainstream, sometimes. And they deserve love too, heh.
73
keshmeshi @65: "To all those people advising SHIT to stop looking and love will drop into her lap: shut the fuck up. Congratulations for being extremely lucky, but no one can count on that. Jesus Christ. "
I agree. Dating is a low-percentage game, and you need to work at it to make it work for you. Make your own luck, etc etc.
On the other hand, I don't think it's profitable to try so hard that dating/meeting people becomes the only thing you do. Everybody I've known who does that becomes unpleasant somehow. Some become like assembly lines, where every date is a speed date and they have a cynical approach to every new person. Others focus too much on the goal and start to become depressed because they haven't met it. Still others become boring, because all they do is date. I agree that you have to work to meet people, but I think it's possible to overdo it. I've been on dates with a few women who seeemed to see it more as a transaction than as an interaction, and I wonder sometimes if that kind of goal-focused approach is why.
I agree. Dating is a low-percentage game, and you need to work at it to make it work for you. Make your own luck, etc etc.
On the other hand, I don't think it's profitable to try so hard that dating/meeting people becomes the only thing you do. Everybody I've known who does that becomes unpleasant somehow. Some become like assembly lines, where every date is a speed date and they have a cynical approach to every new person. Others focus too much on the goal and start to become depressed because they haven't met it. Still others become boring, because all they do is date. I agree that you have to work to meet people, but I think it's possible to overdo it. I've been on dates with a few women who seeemed to see it more as a transaction than as an interaction, and I wonder sometimes if that kind of goal-focused approach is why.
74
What worked for me was giving up. I was bitching to a friend about this very thing (Why do I always date losers, why am I alone, etc) when I finally just blurted out "I'm too much of a loser to run my own life. The guys I pick just prove I have terrible judgment and should not be in charge of the picking any more." My friend set me up with his wife's brother and we've been married for 5 years now, with our second baby on the way. I always went for long-haired rock and rollers and it turned out my soul mate shaves his head with a clippers once a week and listens to country. Maybe if SHIT doesn't know what she's doing wrong, she could let someone else do the doing for a bit. It can't hurt to have feedback before making major decisions, anyway. And maybe during those celibate 2 months, hanging out as a couple in a group of her friends, to see if they can pick up on any "just waiting for the sex than I'm outta here" vibes she's missing.
75
Waiting for the rain to thin out so I can jog... Can you go back to university for a class or two, ESS? You'll be a happier more interested person with ideas buzzing around in your head, and you'll meet lots of happy interested people with ideas who have already undergone a selection process of sorts.
Toronto probably isn't as fleece-wearing as Seattle, but college campuses here also seem like one of the last places you can dress up and look your best without incurring the hate. Since you're 27, you might as well enjoy it!
Toronto probably isn't as fleece-wearing as Seattle, but college campuses here also seem like one of the last places you can dress up and look your best without incurring the hate. Since you're 27, you might as well enjoy it!
76
To pretty much completely echo Dan. You aren't too old. My wife was 32 before she met the man of her dreams... or at least I hope he is! :D
Secondly I also agree about relaxing a little bit on the sex front. I've slept with three women within the first 24 hours of meeting them*, one turned into an 18 month relationship across 2 continents (Americans that met in Germany studying abroad), another was a one night stand before I went off to basic training, and the last turned into my wife. The only one I regret was the basic training one, but the other two more than make up for it a million times over (and besides everyone needs that 'funny' story about getting way too drunk and waking up next to a not so desirable person). ;)
*depending on how you look at it I had met my wife ~3 weeks earlier online but we had just talked, no 'online relationship' or anything.
Which brings me to the last thing, and the only thing Dan didn't mention was, have you tried looking online? Yeah 10 years ago it may have been cheesy and dorky but now with so many people out there it's pretty awesome. And not to mention there is much less incentive for dishonesty. I mean, it's not like either one is going to get laid or whatever they want no matter what they say, so why bother? And if you have an opinion or view that the other doesn't like, no awkward moment, peace is only a [X] click away.
Just my .02
Secondly I also agree about relaxing a little bit on the sex front. I've slept with three women within the first 24 hours of meeting them*, one turned into an 18 month relationship across 2 continents (Americans that met in Germany studying abroad), another was a one night stand before I went off to basic training, and the last turned into my wife. The only one I regret was the basic training one, but the other two more than make up for it a million times over (and besides everyone needs that 'funny' story about getting way too drunk and waking up next to a not so desirable person). ;)
*depending on how you look at it I had met my wife ~3 weeks earlier online but we had just talked, no 'online relationship' or anything.
Which brings me to the last thing, and the only thing Dan didn't mention was, have you tried looking online? Yeah 10 years ago it may have been cheesy and dorky but now with so many people out there it's pretty awesome. And not to mention there is much less incentive for dishonesty. I mean, it's not like either one is going to get laid or whatever they want no matter what they say, so why bother? And if you have an opinion or view that the other doesn't like, no awkward moment, peace is only a [X] click away.
Just my .02
77
You need to take the toaist approach. Instead of all the stipulations, let that go. Purge your mind of preconceptions -- from what he's going to look like to what a relationship is supposed to be -- and let it happen. That way, whatever happens happens. At least you won't be as desperate and frustrated.
You know, according to the last census there were almost 100 million singles in the US. That's a third of the population. Many of them will never find a partner. It's not the cure-all. I have been lonelier in a relationship than alone. We need to form intimate bonds and loving networks regardless -- friends and neighbors. Find something to do with the love you've got, and you'll get it back somehow. It may not be in the form of a facial. But if it's physical intimacy you crave, fuckbuddies can be pretty awesome, too.
Bottom line is: if you're not happy, change your life. Don't wait for someone to come along and do it for you.
You know, according to the last census there were almost 100 million singles in the US. That's a third of the population. Many of them will never find a partner. It's not the cure-all. I have been lonelier in a relationship than alone. We need to form intimate bonds and loving networks regardless -- friends and neighbors. Find something to do with the love you've got, and you'll get it back somehow. It may not be in the form of a facial. But if it's physical intimacy you crave, fuckbuddies can be pretty awesome, too.
Bottom line is: if you're not happy, change your life. Don't wait for someone to come along and do it for you.
78
@65
Yeah, I'm super fucking lucky. Let me tell you, alone, frustrated, and several times recently rejected is just exactly where I wanted to be right now.
I say stop looking because actively looking has brought me nothing but misery and rejection, whereas living my life and being open to the possibility has brought me what successes I've had. I say stop looking because people can TELL when you're looking and it's frankly kind of creepy, or at least it seems to creep people out when I slip up and catch myself in pursuit mode. I say stop looking because looking is awful.
My advice comes from distinctly unpleasant experience and a desire to help others avoid repeating it, not an assumption that everyone else can have my oh-so-enviable life of seeking and failing to find a decent rebound, relationship, or hell, just some action if they just wish hard enough.
Yeah, I'm super fucking lucky. Let me tell you, alone, frustrated, and several times recently rejected is just exactly where I wanted to be right now.
I say stop looking because actively looking has brought me nothing but misery and rejection, whereas living my life and being open to the possibility has brought me what successes I've had. I say stop looking because people can TELL when you're looking and it's frankly kind of creepy, or at least it seems to creep people out when I slip up and catch myself in pursuit mode. I say stop looking because looking is awful.
My advice comes from distinctly unpleasant experience and a desire to help others avoid repeating it, not an assumption that everyone else can have my oh-so-enviable life of seeking and failing to find a decent rebound, relationship, or hell, just some action if they just wish hard enough.
79
actually, the rain can be kind of romantic at times - some times you meet people during adverse weather events and it just clicks.
Main things are: stop actively looking. go to parties. do stuff you like with other people. don't prejudge dates until the 3rd date if you possibly can.
Main things are: stop actively looking. go to parties. do stuff you like with other people. don't prejudge dates until the 3rd date if you possibly can.
80
I want to echo 52 and 70. I wouldn't berate anyone for wanting to wait a long time before having sex but I don't personally see that it's a great idea, for what 52 said. A problem might be that when you do sleep with these guys, they don't think that you are sexually compatible. And personally I found myself more sexually compatible more easily with my partners once I had gained a lot more experience. That doesn't require one-night stands although for me it involved sluttiness which is not everyone's cup of tea and probably not this particular advice-seeker's.
Just wanted to *add* that comment to the discussion, so I'll point out that I don't disagree with all the advice that has come before, and doesn't suggest sleeping around more.
Just wanted to *add* that comment to the discussion, so I'll point out that I don't disagree with all the advice that has come before, and doesn't suggest sleeping around more.
81
Hang in there--I found a nice guy in Toronto and married him.
I think she should rethink her no-sex-for-two-months rule, though. If guys are going to use her for sex, wouldn't it be better if she didn't get emotionally attached first? She's just setting herself up for unnecessary heartbreak waiting two months to see if the guy will dump her once they've had sex. Have sex first, have fun, and then if he's going to dump you, you've only lost a few hours of your time.
Also, she's probably spending months of her time being unavailable for nice guys because she's invested in these waste of time non-relationships.
Moral of the story: have sex first, get to know guy later. It's the responsible thing to do.
I think she should rethink her no-sex-for-two-months rule, though. If guys are going to use her for sex, wouldn't it be better if she didn't get emotionally attached first? She's just setting herself up for unnecessary heartbreak waiting two months to see if the guy will dump her once they've had sex. Have sex first, have fun, and then if he's going to dump you, you've only lost a few hours of your time.
Also, she's probably spending months of her time being unavailable for nice guys because she's invested in these waste of time non-relationships.
Moral of the story: have sex first, get to know guy later. It's the responsible thing to do.
82
@those who recommend eHarmony; I've heard good things, too, but good solid free option
(that provides really good matches if you put the effort into answering questions, etc.) is OKCupid. I've met the love of my life and al least half a dozen really solid friends there. Seriously helped me set my life up in a new city.
(that provides really good matches if you put the effort into answering questions, etc.) is OKCupid. I've met the love of my life and al least half a dozen really solid friends there. Seriously helped me set my life up in a new city.
83
Hey SHIT! I was you 3 years ago! Cute funny smart Toronto 27 wtf why can't I get a guy to be serious about me when all my guy friends (and lays) say I'd make the perfect girlfriend, cried my eyes out after a particularly devastating rejection.
One night I got my ass drunk enough and decided that my hot friend was worth having a one night stand with, even if it didn't go anywhere, because he's hot. We got married 2 months ago.
Hang in there girl. It'll turn around when you least expect it.
One night I got my ass drunk enough and decided that my hot friend was worth having a one night stand with, even if it didn't go anywhere, because he's hot. We got married 2 months ago.
Hang in there girl. It'll turn around when you least expect it.
84
#46: congratulations, with merely a few hours to go before the close of the year, you've won a stunning, a come-from-nowhere victory in the competition for the single dumbest thing said on SLOG all year, and a strong contender for the most dumb-ass thing said here all decade.
85
I'll chime in on the "stop looking and learn to love yourself" but I think the addition "because then love will come to you" is a little self-deceiving.
Who knows if love is going to "find" you or not? Why define your happiness and completeness by your relationship status? 4 years ago I was in a committed LTR with a beautiful woman I loved deeply, and was utterly miserable. I finally made some really good friends and escaped that relationship, giving myself the chance to have my own identity.
I haven't had a partner since, and I can't remember a time in my life when I felt happier, wholer, or more loved. So I say "stop looking and learn to love yourself" not because I expect this to help you find a partner, but because once you do you'll realize obtaining a partner isn't actually the be-all-end-all of your chances for happiness.
Being single isn't the same thing as being alone.
Who knows if love is going to "find" you or not? Why define your happiness and completeness by your relationship status? 4 years ago I was in a committed LTR with a beautiful woman I loved deeply, and was utterly miserable. I finally made some really good friends and escaped that relationship, giving myself the chance to have my own identity.
I haven't had a partner since, and I can't remember a time in my life when I felt happier, wholer, or more loved. So I say "stop looking and learn to love yourself" not because I expect this to help you find a partner, but because once you do you'll realize obtaining a partner isn't actually the be-all-end-all of your chances for happiness.
Being single isn't the same thing as being alone.
86
SHIT, do you find yourself putting a ton of energy and time into these guys you date for two months? Do you date them exclusively? Cut that out. Date a couple of guys. At two months, and especially if you aren't sleeping together, it's very casual and perfectly acceptable to date around and keep your options open. This will make things easier on you if (and when) things don't work out with one man because you won't have "wasted time" on one person to the detriment of meeting others. Also, dating around will make you MORE attractive to others, a.) it's an ego boost, so you'll appear more confident and b.) Being less available and having multiple suitors makes you more enticing and mysterious. It makes the chase more interesting.
I would also re-iterate the suggestions here to cultivate hobbies or activities you enjoy. These will make you happier, more interesting to men, and help you meet men. I recommend trying something you've always wanted to do that's somewhat masculine (you won't meet too many fellows in a knitting group). Learn to ride a motorcycle or start a "project" car. If you like sports look into co-recreational leagues. These leagues come in a variety of divisions including absolute beginner and they ALWAYS need female players.
I would also re-iterate the suggestions here to cultivate hobbies or activities you enjoy. These will make you happier, more interesting to men, and help you meet men. I recommend trying something you've always wanted to do that's somewhat masculine (you won't meet too many fellows in a knitting group). Learn to ride a motorcycle or start a "project" car. If you like sports look into co-recreational leagues. These leagues come in a variety of divisions including absolute beginner and they ALWAYS need female players.
87
This is slightly off topic, but I wish someone would start a dating website for the rest of us. I signed up for the free trial of eharmony. It's okay, but there were absolutly no questions about sexual compatability and degree of interest in differnt types of kink. Let's face it everyone has a few favorite kinks, and adversions to some that would be deal breakers. Why not incorperate questions about what types of fun you like, would be willing to try, or are adverse to? Idealy I would be able to answer the qestions and only be matched with potential partners with compatable interests, and the info would be kept confidential rather than broadcast across my user profile. Also I work part time as an exotic dancer, I would love it if I could prescreen out the people that would not be okay with dating someone like me.
88
I'd also go along with the suggestion to loosen up a bit.
My current relationship of over 20 years started out as a one-night-stand. It's working out pretty good so far... for more than two decades.
You don't have to be a total slut, but your restriction of no sex until you are seriously dating seems a bit too tightly wound.
Sex is part of a relationship. Until you've slept with someone, you (and they) don't know if you are sexually compatible. So they date you for months, finally sleep with you, and only then find out that something doesn't click. May be their fault, may be your fault, may be nobody's fault. But for whatever reason, the sex isn't all they were hoping for. It happens.
Wouldn't you rather know that sooner, rather than after you've been dating for an extended period? That way, if it doesn't work out, you haven't got so much invested in it.
My current relationship of over 20 years started out as a one-night-stand. It's working out pretty good so far... for more than two decades.
You don't have to be a total slut, but your restriction of no sex until you are seriously dating seems a bit too tightly wound.
Sex is part of a relationship. Until you've slept with someone, you (and they) don't know if you are sexually compatible. So they date you for months, finally sleep with you, and only then find out that something doesn't click. May be their fault, may be your fault, may be nobody's fault. But for whatever reason, the sex isn't all they were hoping for. It happens.
Wouldn't you rather know that sooner, rather than after you've been dating for an extended period? That way, if it doesn't work out, you haven't got so much invested in it.
90
I don't know if you're going to get all the way down here, but I just wanted to add a little nuance to the "loosen up about your sex timeline" meme that's been going on here. It's not that you have to run out and screw the first guy who smiles at you in a bar. That's a recipe for disaster. But if one of the first thing you say to a potential romantic interest is, "Hey, don't expect any sex from me until we get to know each other better," you've just made the relationship all about sex. In my experience, it's better to just see how it goes. I get the feeling that your instinct is to protect yourself from the guys who are ONLY interested in sex, but these kind rigid dating rules only work in high concept romantic comedies. In real life, you're going to have instant chemistry with some people and with others it will take a long time to develop, but worth the wait. (Full disclosure, though: I'm now married to one of those "instant chemistry" people. We had sex on our first date and I kept coming back for more.) And seriously, don't worry about your age. My 20s sucked; my 30s have rocked. You've got a while yet to be young and hot.
91
I hear you, SHIT. 33, never had a "relationship" that was good for more than a month, never had sex with someone I actually love. I've got my life together, am in grad school and am one of the most social people there is.
Oh, and I've done the online thing and I've totally stumped a therapist & all my friends looking for patterns and how I may be contributing to this. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I'm trying to find peace with the idea that it may never happen.
(Any ideas on how to kill a sex drive? That'd be HUGELY helpful first step. And don't give me the vibe bit. I have one. I've used one daily for five fucking years and it's ain't the same. Casual sex isn't much better for me. Orgasm with a partner? Do they exist?)
I'm spending the next week taking vacation time to clear my head. Yoga twice a day, journaling- no TV, no movies, no music with lyrics, no phone, no internet. I tried to find books on being happily single when you are perpetually single and the only ones are "be happily single to find a man!" and "how to be happily single when you've never been single!" I might have to write my own damn book.
I'm going to create a multimedia journal- cut out pictures of what I want my life to look like and put them together. Meditate. Try to find some answers. Anyway, I certainly don't have answers, but maybe some of my ideas might help you. I've started meditation & journaling and I've become less anxious about the whole thing. Most of the time.
balderdash- I think you misread keshmeshi- the people being called 'lucky' are the ones saying they stopped looking and love fell in their lap. Not those of us who stopped looking and... nothing.
Oh, and I've done the online thing and I've totally stumped a therapist & all my friends looking for patterns and how I may be contributing to this. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I'm trying to find peace with the idea that it may never happen.
(Any ideas on how to kill a sex drive? That'd be HUGELY helpful first step. And don't give me the vibe bit. I have one. I've used one daily for five fucking years and it's ain't the same. Casual sex isn't much better for me. Orgasm with a partner? Do they exist?)
I'm spending the next week taking vacation time to clear my head. Yoga twice a day, journaling- no TV, no movies, no music with lyrics, no phone, no internet. I tried to find books on being happily single when you are perpetually single and the only ones are "be happily single to find a man!" and "how to be happily single when you've never been single!" I might have to write my own damn book.
I'm going to create a multimedia journal- cut out pictures of what I want my life to look like and put them together. Meditate. Try to find some answers. Anyway, I certainly don't have answers, but maybe some of my ideas might help you. I've started meditation & journaling and I've become less anxious about the whole thing. Most of the time.
balderdash- I think you misread keshmeshi- the people being called 'lucky' are the ones saying they stopped looking and love fell in their lap. Not those of us who stopped looking and... nothing.
92
#87: at the risk of engaging in a little spammage, I'm going to strongly advocate for okcupid.com. It's got the whole quizzes/compatibility-testing angle of e-harmony, but it's (a) free, and (b) not run by homophobic douchebags. It's not specifically aimed at queer/kinky/etc people, but if that's what you're into (and I am), it's freakishly good at finding like-minded people for you.
Plus, their company blog, where they occasionally run data analysis over the entire site and share the results with the world, is hilarious.
(Not an employee or a stockholder, just a happy user.)
Plus, their company blog, where they occasionally run data analysis over the entire site and share the results with the world, is hilarious.
(Not an employee or a stockholder, just a happy user.)
93
Hi SHIT,
I don't know if you'll read this far down the comments, but I want to put in my two cents on the whole "no sex till we're seriously dating" thing. I just want to counter all these people who sound like they want to pressure you into having sex right away. I'm the same way you are about not having sex until the relationship is serious. I'm just not comfortable being intimate with someone I hardly know, and if I'm going to give myself to a guy I want to know he's in it for me, not for my warm vagina and that he intends to stick around for a while. I don't want to get intimately (and emotionally) involved with a guy who won't stick around, so I maintain a little bit of distance until I'm pretty sure he will stick around. I don't do one night stands because I feel it makes me MORE of a cum dumpster and partly because I'm not interested in just sex, I'm interested in a relationship.
Don't stop being smart and funny. Keep looking. I'm going to second a lot of people above when I say that I met my boyfriend when I wasn't looking. I met him at a halloween party and didn't notice that there was a drunk guy flirting with me until he contacted me after the party. I'm also going to second #1 and say that you have to love yourself in order to be lovable.
Keep looking and good luck. You'll find someone.
(Maybe try e-harmony? My boyfriend's sister found a boyfriend via eharmony several months ago and they're still together and happy)
I don't know if you'll read this far down the comments, but I want to put in my two cents on the whole "no sex till we're seriously dating" thing. I just want to counter all these people who sound like they want to pressure you into having sex right away. I'm the same way you are about not having sex until the relationship is serious. I'm just not comfortable being intimate with someone I hardly know, and if I'm going to give myself to a guy I want to know he's in it for me, not for my warm vagina and that he intends to stick around for a while. I don't want to get intimately (and emotionally) involved with a guy who won't stick around, so I maintain a little bit of distance until I'm pretty sure he will stick around. I don't do one night stands because I feel it makes me MORE of a cum dumpster and partly because I'm not interested in just sex, I'm interested in a relationship.
Don't stop being smart and funny. Keep looking. I'm going to second a lot of people above when I say that I met my boyfriend when I wasn't looking. I met him at a halloween party and didn't notice that there was a drunk guy flirting with me until he contacted me after the party. I'm also going to second #1 and say that you have to love yourself in order to be lovable.
Keep looking and good luck. You'll find someone.
(Maybe try e-harmony? My boyfriend's sister found a boyfriend via eharmony several months ago and they're still together and happy)
94
oh, and I second 67. When I was dumped and lonely and miserable I made a list of things I wanted to do, places I wanted to volunteer, things I wanted to try, and I did them, and I felt a LOT better for it. I still do a lot of those things and they still bring me joy and friends.
95
SHIT you sound like a fantasy, a dream that any real man would be lucky to have. That being said, try to develop a friendship and get to know the person before dating them. You don't say what your criteria is in your selection process. Try shy types, they may pleasantly surprise you, but you may have to be the aggressor. Someone willing to spend the time with you to get to really know you before dating increases the potential for a LTR. Lose the games and approach dating in a serious, straight forward, and honest manner. That assumes you do engage in the typical games. Dating can and should still be fun, just maybe more intense since a relationship/friendship already exists. In this scenario the function of dating would be to determine if chemistry existed and establish sexual compatibilty. At least it was for me and my wife of 28 years.
97
My happy 5+ year relationship started as an NSA fling, too. Maybe try something different, but definitely do what Dan says. Hang in there, babe.
98
Seriously, SHIT, find a therapist you can work with. I've been in your shoes, and discovered that I was depressed (which I kinda guessed) and had an anxiety disorder (which I didn't). A dozen or so sessions with a good therapist did wonders for me because I was able to talk things out without being judged, and I realized that I had some seriously screwed up belief systems about myself.
Since then, I'm much happier with who I am, and whether or not I'm in a long term relationship is less important to me. But now that I don't hate the person I am, I'm not giving off an unapproachable vibe (which I think I was, unconsciously), and I'm meeting a lot of people I might not of before.
Get yourself happy with you before you worry about being happy with someone else.
Since then, I'm much happier with who I am, and whether or not I'm in a long term relationship is less important to me. But now that I don't hate the person I am, I'm not giving off an unapproachable vibe (which I think I was, unconsciously), and I'm meeting a lot of people I might not of before.
Get yourself happy with you before you worry about being happy with someone else.
99
People seem to think "loving yourself" and being lonely are mutually exclusive. Are they, really?
I'm really turned off by the "love yourself more" school of thought because it's by definition impossible to know if it's working. Just replace "love yourself" with "love Jesus" and I think you'll see what I mean. If it doesn't work you're not doing it right!
At least SHIT can get dates, I can't even do that.
I do agree with the advice to sleep earlier in a relationship. SHIT will be able to get rid of the guys just want a chance to sleep with her early in the relationship. She will be able to date more guys, and increase her chances of finding someone for a LTR.
I'd also encourage her to go after men, and not just wait until one drifts by.
A lot of you don't seem to understand the law of diminishing marginal utility. Many people don't get that the value you get from things goes down as you use more of those things (e.g. the first cup of coffee in the morning is great, the 15th will make you throw up). Why might someone be "desperate" for a relationship? Because the next unit of alternatives (exercising, watching a movie, joining a club) has such low utility that a relationship is much more fulfilling. To the extent that these things cost something (time, money) they may not be worth doing. When you tell people they shouldn't focus on dating, and that they should do other things, you are saying that person's feelings aren't valid.
yes: @34, @65, @68
@89: Misandry much? Tell us how you really feel about men.
I'm really turned off by the "love yourself more" school of thought because it's by definition impossible to know if it's working. Just replace "love yourself" with "love Jesus" and I think you'll see what I mean. If it doesn't work you're not doing it right!
At least SHIT can get dates, I can't even do that.
I do agree with the advice to sleep earlier in a relationship. SHIT will be able to get rid of the guys just want a chance to sleep with her early in the relationship. She will be able to date more guys, and increase her chances of finding someone for a LTR.
I'd also encourage her to go after men, and not just wait until one drifts by.
A lot of you don't seem to understand the law of diminishing marginal utility. Many people don't get that the value you get from things goes down as you use more of those things (e.g. the first cup of coffee in the morning is great, the 15th will make you throw up). Why might someone be "desperate" for a relationship? Because the next unit of alternatives (exercising, watching a movie, joining a club) has such low utility that a relationship is much more fulfilling. To the extent that these things cost something (time, money) they may not be worth doing. When you tell people they shouldn't focus on dating, and that they should do other things, you are saying that person's feelings aren't valid.
yes: @34, @65, @68
@89: Misandry much? Tell us how you really feel about men.
100
SHIT: "It's the same thing—I meet a guy, he thinks I'm sexy, he finds out I don't sleep with guys unless we're dating so we date long enough for him to sleep with me and then I get the ol' "I'm not looking for anything serious" speech. But—we spent a whole two months before you slept with me saying that you cared about me, . . . Is lying part of the male mating call now. I though canadians were supposed to be fucking nice."
* * * * *
Interesting. I've always thought that making a guy wait a while, like a couple months, would screen out the ones who only want sex because they'd be too impatient to wait. Maybe that would work for some, or even most, but obviously not for all.
As for men lying in order to get laid, I'm not excusing it (and I did it very rarely when I was younger...haven't done it at all in a long time) but explaining it. Men lie because if they are honest about only wanting sex...they won't get laid. Sure, there are a few women who would agree but most women won't. It's not like guys just LOVE to lie. If a guy could say to a woman, "Hey, I'm not into anything serious. I just want to fuck." and most of the the time she'd say "Cool. That's what I want too." then guys would be honest about their intentions. They'd have no reason to lie.
This is the basis for the saying "nice guys don't get laid." A nice guy isn't going to fuck with a woman in order to fuck. He's not going to lie about wanting more than sex if all he wants is sex. Consequently, he doesn't get laid (or laid as often.) Guys who aren't nice couldn't give a shit about how a woman feels. They want to fuck and what they want is more important. So they lie and they get laid.
* * * * *
Interesting. I've always thought that making a guy wait a while, like a couple months, would screen out the ones who only want sex because they'd be too impatient to wait. Maybe that would work for some, or even most, but obviously not for all.
As for men lying in order to get laid, I'm not excusing it (and I did it very rarely when I was younger...haven't done it at all in a long time) but explaining it. Men lie because if they are honest about only wanting sex...they won't get laid. Sure, there are a few women who would agree but most women won't. It's not like guys just LOVE to lie. If a guy could say to a woman, "Hey, I'm not into anything serious. I just want to fuck." and most of the the time she'd say "Cool. That's what I want too." then guys would be honest about their intentions. They'd have no reason to lie.
This is the basis for the saying "nice guys don't get laid." A nice guy isn't going to fuck with a woman in order to fuck. He's not going to lie about wanting more than sex if all he wants is sex. Consequently, he doesn't get laid (or laid as often.) Guys who aren't nice couldn't give a shit about how a woman feels. They want to fuck and what they want is more important. So they lie and they get laid.
101
89/Parsnip: "Men are scum. You don't need them in your life. End of story."
There are men who are scum and women who are scum. There are also a lot of great guys and great women. Everyone can make a few bad choices in a boyfriend/girlfriend/partner, but if you're continually getting involved with assholes/jerks/bitches/cheaters/etc. then you're probably drawn to people like that on some level.
There are men who are scum and women who are scum. There are also a lot of great guys and great women. Everyone can make a few bad choices in a boyfriend/girlfriend/partner, but if you're continually getting involved with assholes/jerks/bitches/cheaters/etc. then you're probably drawn to people like that on some level.
102
65: "To all those people advising SHIT to stop looking and love will drop into her lap: shut the fuck up. Congratulations for being extremely lucky, but no one can count on that."
People who say "you'll only find someone when you quit looking" have likely never had the experience of finding someone when they were looking because that happens to people all the time. Two of my best friends are been married a long time. One met his wife when a group of us stopped at a restaurant on the way back from x-country skiing so that was by chance, but the other met his wife while speed dating. I've met past girlfriends by chance, but one of my best relationships was with a woman I met when trying to meet someone through print personal ads.
People who say "you'll only find someone when you quit looking" have likely never had the experience of finding someone when they were looking because that happens to people all the time. Two of my best friends are been married a long time. One met his wife when a group of us stopped at a restaurant on the way back from x-country skiing so that was by chance, but the other met his wife while speed dating. I've met past girlfriends by chance, but one of my best relationships was with a woman I met when trying to meet someone through print personal ads.
103
SHIT, it doesn't sound like guys are using you for your warm vagina. They're hanging out for 2 months while you're very clear that you won't sleep with them until you're serious. There are plenty of girls who are up for one-night-stands, so if they were just looking for sex they wouldn't bother spending 2 months getting you to give it up. It sounds like something goes wrong once you actually sleep with them - leaving me to wonder - how IS the sex?
Sexual compatibility is an important part of relationships, ESPECIALLY serious relationships. Do you place so much importance on sex that you haven't had enough of it to get comfortable with it? One big advantage of casual sex is learning what you like and getting comfortable with being sexual. This is what makes high school sex so awful. If you're a high-school-level sexual partner looking for guys your age, they may not be up for awkward, "oh my god this is such a big deal" type sex.
It sounds like it's time for you to really think about what sex means to you, and what it means for something to be "serious." Two months is pretty intense, and a pretty high standard. Are you setting yourself, or your partners, up for disappointment? Why isn't a series of a few dates "serious" enough to test out your sexual compatibility with partners? Is it that you want to reserve sex for exclusive relationships? If so, why does it take you 2 months to get exclusive with a guy? While "love yourself!" and "have a life outside of boyfriends!" and "just wait, it will happen!" is all well and good, the way you're approaching relationships obviously isn't making you happy, so it might be worth seriously thinking about what really is important to you - and what you are doing to get in the way of that.
Sexual compatibility is an important part of relationships, ESPECIALLY serious relationships. Do you place so much importance on sex that you haven't had enough of it to get comfortable with it? One big advantage of casual sex is learning what you like and getting comfortable with being sexual. This is what makes high school sex so awful. If you're a high-school-level sexual partner looking for guys your age, they may not be up for awkward, "oh my god this is such a big deal" type sex.
It sounds like it's time for you to really think about what sex means to you, and what it means for something to be "serious." Two months is pretty intense, and a pretty high standard. Are you setting yourself, or your partners, up for disappointment? Why isn't a series of a few dates "serious" enough to test out your sexual compatibility with partners? Is it that you want to reserve sex for exclusive relationships? If so, why does it take you 2 months to get exclusive with a guy? While "love yourself!" and "have a life outside of boyfriends!" and "just wait, it will happen!" is all well and good, the way you're approaching relationships obviously isn't making you happy, so it might be worth seriously thinking about what really is important to you - and what you are doing to get in the way of that.
104
Hi there, lonely girl in Toronto, Canada (I refuse to call you by your acronym!) It's midnight in your time zone and I want you to know someone is thinking of you right now. Happy 2010. I wish I could tell you there is a magic formula for finding Mr. Right, but it's just a question of perseverance and luck. I agree with the other commenters who advise you to live LIFE first and make dating a PART of that life rather than the reason for living. Stick to your principles about not putting out for every loser who unzips his fly. You're not doing anything wrong by sleeping with someone when YOU think it feels right. If you want to have sex right away, fine. If not, don't be pressured.
The only thing I can tell you for sure is that when the right guy eventually happens, you'll be glad that the other guys turned out not to be the ones. Most of all, you'll realize that the lonely stretch of road was worth the traveling, even if it doesn't feel like that now. Try to find a good counselor. Make a resolution that 2010 will be about seeking fun and laughter. I'm here raising a glass to you because I've been there too.
The only thing I can tell you for sure is that when the right guy eventually happens, you'll be glad that the other guys turned out not to be the ones. Most of all, you'll realize that the lonely stretch of road was worth the traveling, even if it doesn't feel like that now. Try to find a good counselor. Make a resolution that 2010 will be about seeking fun and laughter. I'm here raising a glass to you because I've been there too.
105
Whoa, there's other people out there that actually look for a relationship rather than the sex?
I feel like less of a minority.
I feel like less of a minority.
106
In response to all the folks that recommended Eharmony, on, of all friggin' places, DAN SAVAGE's BLOG????
People, listen up.
EHarmony is owned by James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family. Paying for it lines the coffers of the sexphobic, homophobic, anti-gay-marriage, women-should-lock-it-up-and-shut-it-up crowd.
Do not support them if you care about women's rights, gay rights, and a commons sense approach to human sexuality (which is, after all, why we read Savage, yes?).
People, listen up.
EHarmony is owned by James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family. Paying for it lines the coffers of the sexphobic, homophobic, anti-gay-marriage, women-should-lock-it-up-and-shut-it-up crowd.
Do not support them if you care about women's rights, gay rights, and a commons sense approach to human sexuality (which is, after all, why we read Savage, yes?).
107
Great advice from lots of people here, and I'll just chime in to say that my husband was my FIRST one-night stand. I was 31. We've been married six years. It's not that I was against one-night stands; I'd just never been in a situation where I wanted it to happen. I agree with the poster who said that perhaps explicitly setting strict rules puts too much emphasis on the sex. I'm not sure that's what you're doing, but if you're sitting guys down with the "no sex till I'm sure" speech, it might be magnifying the issue.
As for the "you shouldn't look for love/you have to look for it it won't find you" debate, I think it's a little of both. It's not good to be totally focused on finding a ltr. Makes people boring, seem desperate, etc. And the men that desperate women do attract are often assholes. So don't make it your focus. But do improve your chances by getting out there and doing things where you meet people- like someone else said, it's about volume.
Sounds like you have a fair amount of confidence and self-awareness but you've been beaten down by the heartbreak. Don't let it finish you! Stay strong and smart (and patient), and it will work out for you. And when it does, let us know.
Happy new year, everyone.
As for the "you shouldn't look for love/you have to look for it it won't find you" debate, I think it's a little of both. It's not good to be totally focused on finding a ltr. Makes people boring, seem desperate, etc. And the men that desperate women do attract are often assholes. So don't make it your focus. But do improve your chances by getting out there and doing things where you meet people- like someone else said, it's about volume.
Sounds like you have a fair amount of confidence and self-awareness but you've been beaten down by the heartbreak. Don't let it finish you! Stay strong and smart (and patient), and it will work out for you. And when it does, let us know.
Happy new year, everyone.
108
"why not go for an honest fuck if that's all you want?"
Because that's obviously not what they want. They want a conquest, and you fit the bill perfectly with your arbitrary, high-flown rules about sex.
Which isn't to say all men are that way, far from it. Personally, if I were seeing someone seriously, and the two of us could resist tearing each others' clothes off for two whole months, I would take that as a sign that we weren't sufficiently attracted to each other to maintain a long-term relationship.
Because that's obviously not what they want. They want a conquest, and you fit the bill perfectly with your arbitrary, high-flown rules about sex.
Which isn't to say all men are that way, far from it. Personally, if I were seeing someone seriously, and the two of us could resist tearing each others' clothes off for two whole months, I would take that as a sign that we weren't sufficiently attracted to each other to maintain a long-term relationship.
109
By delaying sex for so long, you are sending the following messages to the men you date:
- "I will make you jump through arbitrary hoops for sex."
- "I do not have a strong desire for sex, so you probably won't get much if we enter an LTR."
- "I'm not irresistibly attracted to you."
Does that sound like the kind of person any guy would want to date long-term?
Unless you have a low libido, my advice is that, if you are capable of waiting two months to have sex with a guy, then you shouldn't be dating that guy.
If you do have a low libido, then you should tell guys about that. That will scare off all the guys interested only in sex and leave you with more compatible guys that also have low libidos.
As others have also pointed out, by delaying sex you are wasting time with and becoming emotionally attached to men that may not be sexually compatible with you or may not be interested in an LTR with you.
- "I will make you jump through arbitrary hoops for sex."
- "I do not have a strong desire for sex, so you probably won't get much if we enter an LTR."
- "I'm not irresistibly attracted to you."
Does that sound like the kind of person any guy would want to date long-term?
Unless you have a low libido, my advice is that, if you are capable of waiting two months to have sex with a guy, then you shouldn't be dating that guy.
If you do have a low libido, then you should tell guys about that. That will scare off all the guys interested only in sex and leave you with more compatible guys that also have low libidos.
As others have also pointed out, by delaying sex you are wasting time with and becoming emotionally attached to men that may not be sexually compatible with you or may not be interested in an LTR with you.
110
Look for men who are passionate about life and share some of your interests or develop new interests. How narrow is the age range of the men you are willing to date? If it has been fairly narrow consider raising the upper age limit by at least 5 years. Older men are more likely to be interested in settling down. Consider the level of education of the people you've been dating. People with advanced degrees (excluding medical doctors, lawyers, and academics who tend to be egotists) have demonstrated the ability and willingness to make long term commitments and are less likely to be driven by sex. Nothing is guaranteed and you may still run into jerks.
111
"Lots of decent, lasting relationships got started thanks to indecent, impulsive sex." Yep, Dan, you got that right-that explains my current relationship of 9 1/2 years. Turns out we were compatible in lots of other places besides bed. But the bed is what we still do best-its where we reconnect, where everyone should. Hang in there SHIT, he's out there. Really, he is.
112
Hey SHIT, guess what? It's not only a new year, it's a new decade... no more 00s. Things are already changing. You're getting props from more than 100 strangers, on The Stranger.
I'm sure you're hot and a real catch. Hang in there, and don't blame yourself for the shortcomings of others.
Cheers!
I'm sure you're hot and a real catch. Hang in there, and don't blame yourself for the shortcomings of others.
Cheers!
113
What's going on is that from the guy's standpoint you become different after having sex:
You:
Dating: not serious
Sleeping together: serious
Your guys:
Dating: not serious
Sleeping together: not serious
You're only compatible during the dating stage.
Waiting a few months before having sex doesn't mean the guy's dedicated to the relationship, it just means that you're hot enough for the guy to continue to see you (and be seen with you) without the sex.
You need to meet a more mature type of guy, either older or wiser. The 110 previous posts contain 99% good advice. Follow some of it and you'll do fine.
You:
Dating: not serious
Sleeping together: serious
Your guys:
Dating: not serious
Sleeping together: not serious
You're only compatible during the dating stage.
Waiting a few months before having sex doesn't mean the guy's dedicated to the relationship, it just means that you're hot enough for the guy to continue to see you (and be seen with you) without the sex.
You need to meet a more mature type of guy, either older or wiser. The 110 previous posts contain 99% good advice. Follow some of it and you'll do fine.
114
Dan: "Also, I'd encourage you to rethink your opposition to one-night stands or sex right away. My boyfriend is the one-night stand who stuck around. Lots of decent, lasting relationships got started thanks to indecent, impulsive sex."
Over the years I've seen a lot of women express the sentiment that it's a mistake for a woman to have sex right away because the guy is always going to view her as too easy. While some guys are that way -- typically, the guys who are just interested in sex -- if a guy thinks a woman is cool in addition to being a good lover, and they have things in common, he's likely going to stick around.
Over the years I've seen a lot of women express the sentiment that it's a mistake for a woman to have sex right away because the guy is always going to view her as too easy. While some guys are that way -- typically, the guys who are just interested in sex -- if a guy thinks a woman is cool in addition to being a good lover, and they have things in common, he's likely going to stick around.
115
@99 - suggesting to someone that a change in emotional priorities might make them happier is NOT the same thing as telling them their feelings are invalid.
And the reason we have conflated "not loving yourself" and "being lonely" in this instance is that it's pretty clear from the letter that SHIT places so much emotional stock in finding a partner that it's affecting her self-esteem and her physical well-being: "I can't eat, I can't sleep...I'm so fucking lonely it makes me sick;" and that she blames herself for her situation: "What the fuck is wrong with me?"
Your feelings can be totally valid and also be wildly unhealthy - in which case I would argue you need to find a way to change those feelings and not just wallow in their validity until you decide to off yourself.
As for us people not understanding the law of marginal utility, what I really don't understand is its place in this discussion. First of all, it's fallacious to claim that watching movies and exercising become less valuable the more you do them (I'm assuming you're using "valuable" in this sense to mean "fulfilling?"), and second of all it's ridiculous to imply a relationship is somehow exempt from this idea of diminishing value. And are you really claiming relationships don't take time and money?? I mean, way, wayyy more time and money than watching movies...
And the reason we have conflated "not loving yourself" and "being lonely" in this instance is that it's pretty clear from the letter that SHIT places so much emotional stock in finding a partner that it's affecting her self-esteem and her physical well-being: "I can't eat, I can't sleep...I'm so fucking lonely it makes me sick;" and that she blames herself for her situation: "What the fuck is wrong with me?"
Your feelings can be totally valid and also be wildly unhealthy - in which case I would argue you need to find a way to change those feelings and not just wallow in their validity until you decide to off yourself.
As for us people not understanding the law of marginal utility, what I really don't understand is its place in this discussion. First of all, it's fallacious to claim that watching movies and exercising become less valuable the more you do them (I'm assuming you're using "valuable" in this sense to mean "fulfilling?"), and second of all it's ridiculous to imply a relationship is somehow exempt from this idea of diminishing value. And are you really claiming relationships don't take time and money?? I mean, way, wayyy more time and money than watching movies...
116
Hey, Toronto gal: I live about 2 hours of south of you & have a decade on you, in terms of age. I moved up here, far away from all my friends, to upstate NY to pursue a relationship that lasted 5 + years but recently ended. And then, last night, a pal called to invite me to a local party, assuring me that my ex wouldn't be there, but he then was, so I fled to a local bar & screamed Happy New Year w/ a buncha strangers. I felt lonely, & miserable, & found myself wondering the same things as you: hey! I'm cute, I'm fun, I have a good career & my own life..what's wrong with me..? (*sigh*!) Definitely a rough NYE. I am your soul sister this year.
Heartbreak hurts. Repeated heartbreak, hurts more. I'm not gonna tell you that it's gonna just happen when yer not looking (lucky folks, if that is true for you) or to love yourself more. You sound like you're pretty aware of your good points. But it is true that desperation makes us act jumpy, nervy & out of tune w/ our feelings. If you have a pretty rigid schedule of dating, making out only for 2 months, regardless of the guy, then most guys are gonna wait out your deadline just to do it. Like Everest, they will climb you because you have drawn a line in the sand, saying they can't do it until X time.
Don't assign an arbitrary time for sex. I mean, I dunno about one-night stands: they can be wonderful, they can also be agonizing. But allow yourself some flexibility in that ol' schedule, 'cause some guy might feel massively right on the second date; some guys never do. But 27, 27 is yoooooung. You have plenty of time to sow a few wild oats, find some things to do that y' wanna do, to meet new folks & you live in a sexy, fun city with plenty of hot people. (I know, I've been there.) Give yourself time. & if it's any consolation, the relationships & associated fun I have had in my 30's thus far are WAY better than my 20's.
Good luck to you, chiquita. Feel free to drop me an Email (my website is linked to my name) & I hope that the new decade brings you plenty of new faces & hopeful thoughts.
Lastly, I've never done online dating, but am thinking about it. I have a hard-to-date pal who found love on eHarmony, but more friends use plentyoffish.com & eChemistry.com. Don't support the homophobes @ eHarmony.
More...
Heartbreak hurts. Repeated heartbreak, hurts more. I'm not gonna tell you that it's gonna just happen when yer not looking (lucky folks, if that is true for you) or to love yourself more. You sound like you're pretty aware of your good points. But it is true that desperation makes us act jumpy, nervy & out of tune w/ our feelings. If you have a pretty rigid schedule of dating, making out only for 2 months, regardless of the guy, then most guys are gonna wait out your deadline just to do it. Like Everest, they will climb you because you have drawn a line in the sand, saying they can't do it until X time.
Don't assign an arbitrary time for sex. I mean, I dunno about one-night stands: they can be wonderful, they can also be agonizing. But allow yourself some flexibility in that ol' schedule, 'cause some guy might feel massively right on the second date; some guys never do. But 27, 27 is yoooooung. You have plenty of time to sow a few wild oats, find some things to do that y' wanna do, to meet new folks & you live in a sexy, fun city with plenty of hot people. (I know, I've been there.) Give yourself time. & if it's any consolation, the relationships & associated fun I have had in my 30's thus far are WAY better than my 20's.
Good luck to you, chiquita. Feel free to drop me an Email (my website is linked to my name) & I hope that the new decade brings you plenty of new faces & hopeful thoughts.
Lastly, I've never done online dating, but am thinking about it. I have a hard-to-date pal who found love on eHarmony, but more friends use plentyoffish.com & eChemistry.com. Don't support the homophobes @ eHarmony.
117
I really have to agree with Dan on breaking the "no having sex until we're dating" rule. I broke two years of celibacy to sleep with a guy I met while traveling- we had known each other less than 24 hours before we had sex. Well, we've been dating ever since and are now engaged. Go figure.
118
@115:
Most important part of the reply here:
My point is that since she hasn't "consumed" much "relationship," for her, it might have a much higher marginal utility compared to "everything else." She likes it a lot because she doesn't get enough. And, when someone comes along and suggest that she just shouldn't like it as much, well, that seems cruel to me. Sorry.
and the rest:
"suggesting to someone that a change in emotional priorities might make them happier is NOT the same thing as telling them their feelings are invalid."
Right, but that's not what a lot of people are suggesting. Yea, you can suggest anything but if your suggesting that one not want what one want as much you're not taking their emotional priorities as given, as something that is OK, that isn't pathological, that is valid. As an example, suppose you didn't like Bush when he was president. You could try to get someone else to be the president, but that's pretty hard. And if someone suggested that what you really need to do is learn to like Bush more … well, I'd like to know what you'd have to say to that.
Second paragraph: … so? I don't think those quotes show that she doesn't love herself. Part of my point is what does "love yourself" even mean? How do you know if it's enough? It seems like whenever someone feels bad about something going on in their life people jump on the idea that their problems would be solved if they just they just loved themselves a little more.
Third paragraph: I more or less agree, but I'd make the distinction between "feelings" and what someone wants. It's one thing to want a boy friend, but it's another to think you're worthless because you don't have one.
Fourth paragraph: The idea of diminishing marginal utility (and welfare economics, all that kind of stuff) is really useful in understanding why someone might want a relationship a lot. Watching movies and exercising were just examples, but i picked them because those are sometimes things people suggest doing other than trying to find a SO. I think you are wrong about those two activities (or anything) not becoming less valuable the more you do them. The reason it might not seem so is because it's pretty easy for many people to have enough diversity in their consumption that no one thing becomes a lot less or more valuable than something else. But, diminishing marginal utility as a phenomenon is pretty well established.
and … I never intended "to imply a relationship is somehow exempt from this idea of diminishing value." Sorry if you read it that way.
More...
Most important part of the reply here:
My point is that since she hasn't "consumed" much "relationship," for her, it might have a much higher marginal utility compared to "everything else." She likes it a lot because she doesn't get enough. And, when someone comes along and suggest that she just shouldn't like it as much, well, that seems cruel to me. Sorry.
and the rest:
"suggesting to someone that a change in emotional priorities might make them happier is NOT the same thing as telling them their feelings are invalid."
Right, but that's not what a lot of people are suggesting. Yea, you can suggest anything but if your suggesting that one not want what one want as much you're not taking their emotional priorities as given, as something that is OK, that isn't pathological, that is valid. As an example, suppose you didn't like Bush when he was president. You could try to get someone else to be the president, but that's pretty hard. And if someone suggested that what you really need to do is learn to like Bush more … well, I'd like to know what you'd have to say to that.
Second paragraph: … so? I don't think those quotes show that she doesn't love herself. Part of my point is what does "love yourself" even mean? How do you know if it's enough? It seems like whenever someone feels bad about something going on in their life people jump on the idea that their problems would be solved if they just they just loved themselves a little more.
Third paragraph: I more or less agree, but I'd make the distinction between "feelings" and what someone wants. It's one thing to want a boy friend, but it's another to think you're worthless because you don't have one.
Fourth paragraph: The idea of diminishing marginal utility (and welfare economics, all that kind of stuff) is really useful in understanding why someone might want a relationship a lot. Watching movies and exercising were just examples, but i picked them because those are sometimes things people suggest doing other than trying to find a SO. I think you are wrong about those two activities (or anything) not becoming less valuable the more you do them. The reason it might not seem so is because it's pretty easy for many people to have enough diversity in their consumption that no one thing becomes a lot less or more valuable than something else. But, diminishing marginal utility as a phenomenon is pretty well established.
and … I never intended "to imply a relationship is somehow exempt from this idea of diminishing value." Sorry if you read it that way.
119
I could have written your letter a year ago. I'm 35, all my friends are married/partnered, and I wasn't even dating. Furthermore, I was so depressed that it was hard for me not to be angry at men for my situation. Six months ago, I met this wonderful man. I'm not sure what will happen in the relationship, but I now love myself profoundly-exactly how I want to be loved.
I desire marriage but I know that I don't "need it." I have found the love of my life in me. I read these books Mama Gena School of Womanly Arts and even took her class. Nothing short of genius. Please love and adore yourself, you deserve it!
I desire marriage but I know that I don't "need it." I have found the love of my life in me. I read these books Mama Gena School of Womanly Arts and even took her class. Nothing short of genius. Please love and adore yourself, you deserve it!
120
Maybe something's wrong with Toronto? Or maybe this girl just has a lot of bad luck. everything she says about herself sounds awesome and attractive (could there be something unattractive she knows about that she won't bring up? I'll assume not).
Maybe i should hit up girls at conferences and coffee shops instead of at bars, parties and work. Honestly I have had good luck at bars and unfortunately most girls seem to think it's too sleazy to consider a relationship with a guy they had met at a bar, which is too bad, considering how bars are set up to be the most socially open places in any city. So usually I have "good luck" with girls at bars and they end up being the ones less interested than I am in a ltr. So in case you're crossing out bars and parties etc let me just say, they are not such awful places to meet guys. Also many guys go to bars who are awesome but lonely, and somehow single, I've met toooons of guys like this and often that's my situation (jaded advice, sure).
I've been really torn up like this before and if I ever feel that sad and lonely again I'm going to get on a good matchmaking website or something. Have you considered that Toronto girl?
Good luck Toronto girl (I'm not calling you SHIT : ) )
Maybe i should hit up girls at conferences and coffee shops instead of at bars, parties and work. Honestly I have had good luck at bars and unfortunately most girls seem to think it's too sleazy to consider a relationship with a guy they had met at a bar, which is too bad, considering how bars are set up to be the most socially open places in any city. So usually I have "good luck" with girls at bars and they end up being the ones less interested than I am in a ltr. So in case you're crossing out bars and parties etc let me just say, they are not such awful places to meet guys. Also many guys go to bars who are awesome but lonely, and somehow single, I've met toooons of guys like this and often that's my situation (jaded advice, sure).
I've been really torn up like this before and if I ever feel that sad and lonely again I'm going to get on a good matchmaking website or something. Have you considered that Toronto girl?
Good luck Toronto girl (I'm not calling you SHIT : ) )
121
I used to be so desperate for a relationship (I didn't want to spend my life alone) that I would give up whole chunks of myself (metaphorically, though who knows, if someone had asked....) to keep one going. and they all failed, largely because when I was in a relationship I wasn't really a person. I figured I needed to stop that, and I swore off pursuing, encouraging, or even accepting advances from potential partners. Permanently.
About six years later, I found myself attracted to someone and noticed I felt very different about the whole thing, so I decided to let myself pursue that person. Didn't work out, didn't even get to ask (she started dating someone else exclusively a few hours before I was going to ask) but it didn't hurt nearly as much. I still haven't had a date since then (over a decade without a date, almost 15 years since last having sex with someone other than my hand), but my life is wonderful. *If* I meet someone who fits the wonderful life I've created for myself, then I'll worry about that then. As far as my old fear of dying alone, I'm not alone. I have a brother, parents and step parents, and tons of close friends.
Love your life, whether you're in a relationship or not.
About six years later, I found myself attracted to someone and noticed I felt very different about the whole thing, so I decided to let myself pursue that person. Didn't work out, didn't even get to ask (she started dating someone else exclusively a few hours before I was going to ask) but it didn't hurt nearly as much. I still haven't had a date since then (over a decade without a date, almost 15 years since last having sex with someone other than my hand), but my life is wonderful. *If* I meet someone who fits the wonderful life I've created for myself, then I'll worry about that then. As far as my old fear of dying alone, I'm not alone. I have a brother, parents and step parents, and tons of close friends.
Love your life, whether you're in a relationship or not.
122
I know how you feel, Stupid Hurt, dating in the modern world is tough and as a man I apologize for making things difficult for you.
The only thing I have to recommend to you, is to stop looking so hard for a relationship as such. That doesn't mean you have start going for casual sex--it's not for everybody--but you do need to take a more casual approach to finding a boyfriend.
To a man, when a woman talks about commitment, having a family, or getting married, especially in the context of "I'm getting older", that means she's a) not interested in getting to me as a person, and b) is going to pressure me on issues related to commitment, marriage, and children. b) may not be an accurate portrayal of your feelings, but if men are consistently able to take you for a ride (pun intended) just by telling you what you want to hear, a) is probably dead-on.
There are, broadly speaking, two male responses to meeting girls like you. There are nice, honest, monogamous guys (like me, for one, so we are out ther) who respect your feelings won't go out with you because they're just looking to date someone without having to start shopping for engagement rings after the third date. The other type of guy is sleazeball that can see how easy it is to make you just by pretending to have real feelings for you for a couple of days. You want sex, he wants sex, but you want to a relationship so he plays along for as long as it takes to put another notch on his bedpost.
I hope you can see how, perhaps paradoxically, your current behavior attracts exactly the wrong type of guy for you. I'd like to suggest that, instead, you tell guys you meet that you're not really looking for anything specific, just someone to hang out with after work or on weekends, cook together, maybe catch the occasional movie or take walks in the parks. If sex comes up (i.e., he brings it up), say you're not really in a hurry and quality matters more to you than quantity. This will put off the sleazeballs if you follow through with this and don't let yourself get tempted into sleeping with him before you feel ready.
Alternatively, men in Toronto may just be complete jerks.
Either way, I hope you find yourself lucky in love in 2010. Good luck!
More...
The only thing I have to recommend to you, is to stop looking so hard for a relationship as such. That doesn't mean you have start going for casual sex--it's not for everybody--but you do need to take a more casual approach to finding a boyfriend.
To a man, when a woman talks about commitment, having a family, or getting married, especially in the context of "I'm getting older", that means she's a) not interested in getting to me as a person, and b) is going to pressure me on issues related to commitment, marriage, and children. b) may not be an accurate portrayal of your feelings, but if men are consistently able to take you for a ride (pun intended) just by telling you what you want to hear, a) is probably dead-on.
There are, broadly speaking, two male responses to meeting girls like you. There are nice, honest, monogamous guys (like me, for one, so we are out ther) who respect your feelings won't go out with you because they're just looking to date someone without having to start shopping for engagement rings after the third date. The other type of guy is sleazeball that can see how easy it is to make you just by pretending to have real feelings for you for a couple of days. You want sex, he wants sex, but you want to a relationship so he plays along for as long as it takes to put another notch on his bedpost.
I hope you can see how, perhaps paradoxically, your current behavior attracts exactly the wrong type of guy for you. I'd like to suggest that, instead, you tell guys you meet that you're not really looking for anything specific, just someone to hang out with after work or on weekends, cook together, maybe catch the occasional movie or take walks in the parks. If sex comes up (i.e., he brings it up), say you're not really in a hurry and quality matters more to you than quantity. This will put off the sleazeballs if you follow through with this and don't let yourself get tempted into sleeping with him before you feel ready.
Alternatively, men in Toronto may just be complete jerks.
Either way, I hope you find yourself lucky in love in 2010. Good luck!
123
Dan is absolutely right about the one-night stands. It's like giving out free samples at the grocery store; it makes people consider buying it. I'm with a WONDERFUL man who started out as a NSA one-night stand. Don't write it off without serious consideration.
124
I'm in your place SHIT, and it sucks, but it makes things a little better for me knowing there's a community of people out there who're interesting, sexy and still single. At least we know now that they're NOT all married or gay (well, I'm gay but).
Thanks Dan for posting the difficult topic. SHIT, there isn't an answer but you're not alone, there's loads of very long term single people out there wondering why and on the upside, 30% of those long term relationships that people entered in their early twenties should start breaking up anytime now, giving us second round offers. A better 2010!
Thanks Dan for posting the difficult topic. SHIT, there isn't an answer but you're not alone, there's loads of very long term single people out there wondering why and on the upside, 30% of those long term relationships that people entered in their early twenties should start breaking up anytime now, giving us second round offers. A better 2010!
125
"Most importantly avoid the online trap. Anyone you could possibly meet online whether that be Craiglist, MySpace, or any of the paid websites is trash., making you no better than a prostitute."
Huh? A bunch of guys at my office all decided to try Match.com at about the same time. They had pretty good results, including some long-term relationships on terms they were comfortable with. I think you might want to give computer dating services a try, because a lot of them sort people up front by what sort of relationship they want: short-term fun, kinky one-night-stand, ltr, marriage, etc.
Also, I second the suggestion of joining a church. In fact, I recommend joining a few clubs or classes, too. (adult ed in social areas like language or cooking, a dance class, a gardening group) If you are in a situation where you meet a bunch of new people that you have something in common with (like a shared interest in gardening, or hiking, or stamp collecting) you have a better chance of finding potential partners.
And even if you don't find a partner at churches or clubs or classes, at least you'll have a social life. Because you will be meeting and making friends with lots of people who aren't potential partners (they are the wrong sex, or married, or whatever) but they can be friends, and you can hang out with them and have fun and be introduced to their friends. Most churches have a huge social aspect, for instance, and can keep you fully involved with pleasant social interactions for as much time as you have to spend on that.
Huh? A bunch of guys at my office all decided to try Match.com at about the same time. They had pretty good results, including some long-term relationships on terms they were comfortable with. I think you might want to give computer dating services a try, because a lot of them sort people up front by what sort of relationship they want: short-term fun, kinky one-night-stand, ltr, marriage, etc.
Also, I second the suggestion of joining a church. In fact, I recommend joining a few clubs or classes, too. (adult ed in social areas like language or cooking, a dance class, a gardening group) If you are in a situation where you meet a bunch of new people that you have something in common with (like a shared interest in gardening, or hiking, or stamp collecting) you have a better chance of finding potential partners.
And even if you don't find a partner at churches or clubs or classes, at least you'll have a social life. Because you will be meeting and making friends with lots of people who aren't potential partners (they are the wrong sex, or married, or whatever) but they can be friends, and you can hang out with them and have fun and be introduced to their friends. Most churches have a huge social aspect, for instance, and can keep you fully involved with pleasant social interactions for as much time as you have to spend on that.
127
@123
Guess free samples are necessary when you've gotta convince the public you're all that. But when your shit's premium, there's no need. They don't give out free samples for häagen-dazs, but people constantly shell out the cash for it. Just sayin'.
Guess free samples are necessary when you've gotta convince the public you're all that. But when your shit's premium, there's no need. They don't give out free samples for häagen-dazs, but people constantly shell out the cash for it. Just sayin'.
128
Lots of people have given good advice about how to meet potential partners, work on any stuff you might have around choosing sweeties, and get comfy with yourself in the meantime. Take whatever of that advice works for you. As people have also said, love is hard, and it can suck until it doesn't. I could easily have written your letter before I began dating my husband. You'll be able to look back one day, too.
The suggestion that you join up with the Unitarians or Quakers is a good one, if you can see yourself with one of those groups. I'm a member of a very liberal Quaker meeting, and it's likely that your sexual involvement speed would work for potential sweeties there. Not that Quakers don't have sex, but as a group they've often thought about what works for them (joining an odd-sock religious minority kind of requires that) and are willing to entertain other people's thoughts on the same subject.
I'd add two more things.
First, it's okay to take a judicious look at your friends. A number of my relationships toggled back and forth between friendship and romance when I was in my late twenties. (All of these people are still my close friends, which may be a miracle, but there you are.) My husband and I dated and ultimately married after twelve, then fourteen years of friendship, when he mentioned that he had been in love with me for years and wondered if I could also see him in a romantic light. Obviously, you don't want to abuse this one--but you can be pretty sure that a longtime friend likes you for more than your warm lady parts.
Second, love is hard, but many people do manage to eventually get it right. Some ridiculously high number of people marry at least once in their lives--more than 90 percent, I think. Of course that number doesn't include everyone, and not all those marriages last, or are happy while they do. Even so, the math suggests that most people find love at one point or another--and that includes stupid people, alcoholic people, ugly people, passive-aggressive people, people who can't cook. You're attractive, sober, smart, can handle conflict, can cook. Chances are pretty good that this will work out for you. Good luck. Hang in there.
More...
The suggestion that you join up with the Unitarians or Quakers is a good one, if you can see yourself with one of those groups. I'm a member of a very liberal Quaker meeting, and it's likely that your sexual involvement speed would work for potential sweeties there. Not that Quakers don't have sex, but as a group they've often thought about what works for them (joining an odd-sock religious minority kind of requires that) and are willing to entertain other people's thoughts on the same subject.
I'd add two more things.
First, it's okay to take a judicious look at your friends. A number of my relationships toggled back and forth between friendship and romance when I was in my late twenties. (All of these people are still my close friends, which may be a miracle, but there you are.) My husband and I dated and ultimately married after twelve, then fourteen years of friendship, when he mentioned that he had been in love with me for years and wondered if I could also see him in a romantic light. Obviously, you don't want to abuse this one--but you can be pretty sure that a longtime friend likes you for more than your warm lady parts.
Second, love is hard, but many people do manage to eventually get it right. Some ridiculously high number of people marry at least once in their lives--more than 90 percent, I think. Of course that number doesn't include everyone, and not all those marriages last, or are happy while they do. Even so, the math suggests that most people find love at one point or another--and that includes stupid people, alcoholic people, ugly people, passive-aggressive people, people who can't cook. You're attractive, sober, smart, can handle conflict, can cook. Chances are pretty good that this will work out for you. Good luck. Hang in there.
129
Hell, I'm 37 and I could have written this letter. I know EXACTLY what she feels like, just been doing it longer. Add in the fact that I now, as compared to 10 years ago, own a successful business I run and own a lovely home, I sometimes feel farther away from finding a man with integrity than I did then. Each disappointment turns me back to "ok, time to just be with me again" and so I do the self-improvement/self-focus thing again until one of two things happen. Either I meet someone I could be interested in and something then dashes those hopes or I get horny enough that I don't care if it has any meaning, my body insists on being touched and penetrated and I go for the one night stands. I also sometimes cry from the heartbreak of it and I sometimes feel lonelier than I could have ever imagined but, I've got a wide circle of friends and there are men and women I have in my life that I know love me completely. It sounds so cliched but Dan is right - just hang in there! and maybe rethink the one night stands... or at least get a massage from a hot guy :)
130
For what it's worth, eHarmony is having a "contact your matches free" promotion at the beginning of this year. And, I'm pretty sure that you can put your profile on there for free (so, you can't contact people, but they can contact you). I know giving money to eHarmony is not good, but may as well use them without supporting them, if you can.
131
From one Toronto girl to another (except I’m 31): I guess you could say that I’m in a similar situation to you, in that I’ve never had a serious partner. I have had relationships with a few guys, so I do have experience (as it were), but the difference between me and you is that I don’t feel horrible about it.
You say you’re lonely. So what is it about being in a serious relationship that will take away that loneliness? Do you expect that being in a serious relationship will do that? What difference do you expect that a relationship will make in your life? Maybe you should evaluate those expectations?
You also say “it’s the same thing” – ok, so obviously what you’re doing is not working. And it seems absurd, because on paper it looks like you’re doing the right thing. You obviously don’t want to have sex too early on, because you don’t want to be used for sex and then dumped, and you want to get to know the person before you have sex. You’re being so careful with your emotions and body, and it’s not paying off. Maybe it’s time to step out of your comfort zone.
So don’t go out having one-night stands *hoping* to get into a serious relationship. Just do what feels right – if you feel like having sex with that person soon after meeting, then do it. Just don’t expect something out of it – which is what I’m worried that you’ll do after all the “I had a one-night stand and now I’m married to that person” stories. My personal belief is that you can get to know a person within the first few dates. There will be attraction there. If the opportunity comes up to have sex, why not do it? Be safe with condoms,, etc. But why two months? I would get bored in those two months.
So you think you’re doing everything right. Maybe it’s time to start doing the wrong thing. That doesn’t necessarily mean go have one-night stands, but you know, don’t be so perfect. And stop trying so hard! Just let it go!! Make that one change, and other changes happen, but you may have no idea what comes of it. Life’s like that.
I really liked 122’s point about how you’re paradoxically attracting the wrong person. And have a look at the Cary Tennis version of this letter. I particularly like the response from TW. http://letters.salon.com/mwt/col/tenn/20…
Have you submitted your letter to Sasha? I’m sure she could provide some Toronto-specific advice. :) http://www.nowtoronto.com/columns/sasha.… She recently moved from Eye Weekly to NOW, so I’d try to look up her old Eye columns (Love Bites) to see the type of advice she gives – it’s a little different from Dan’s.
More...
You say you’re lonely. So what is it about being in a serious relationship that will take away that loneliness? Do you expect that being in a serious relationship will do that? What difference do you expect that a relationship will make in your life? Maybe you should evaluate those expectations?
You also say “it’s the same thing” – ok, so obviously what you’re doing is not working. And it seems absurd, because on paper it looks like you’re doing the right thing. You obviously don’t want to have sex too early on, because you don’t want to be used for sex and then dumped, and you want to get to know the person before you have sex. You’re being so careful with your emotions and body, and it’s not paying off. Maybe it’s time to step out of your comfort zone.
So don’t go out having one-night stands *hoping* to get into a serious relationship. Just do what feels right – if you feel like having sex with that person soon after meeting, then do it. Just don’t expect something out of it – which is what I’m worried that you’ll do after all the “I had a one-night stand and now I’m married to that person” stories. My personal belief is that you can get to know a person within the first few dates. There will be attraction there. If the opportunity comes up to have sex, why not do it? Be safe with condoms,, etc. But why two months? I would get bored in those two months.
So you think you’re doing everything right. Maybe it’s time to start doing the wrong thing. That doesn’t necessarily mean go have one-night stands, but you know, don’t be so perfect. And stop trying so hard! Just let it go!! Make that one change, and other changes happen, but you may have no idea what comes of it. Life’s like that.
I really liked 122’s point about how you’re paradoxically attracting the wrong person. And have a look at the Cary Tennis version of this letter. I particularly like the response from TW. http://letters.salon.com/mwt/col/tenn/20…
Have you submitted your letter to Sasha? I’m sure she could provide some Toronto-specific advice. :) http://www.nowtoronto.com/columns/sasha.… She recently moved from Eye Weekly to NOW, so I’d try to look up her old Eye columns (Love Bites) to see the type of advice she gives – it’s a little different from Dan’s.
132
#127/Confluence: "@123 Guess free samples are necessary when you've gotta convince the public you're all that. But when your shit's premium, there's no need."
I wouldn't say that free samples are necessary for a woman to give out (and Dan didn't say that either. He merely encouraged her to "rethink [her] opposition to one-night stands or sex right away.")
But I also don't think they necessarily backfire, as so many women seem to think. Just as with free samples of food, some people only want the sample, with no intention of anything more, but those who are interested in something more aren't going to bolt just because they get a free sample.
I wouldn't say that free samples are necessary for a woman to give out (and Dan didn't say that either. He merely encouraged her to "rethink [her] opposition to one-night stands or sex right away.")
But I also don't think they necessarily backfire, as so many women seem to think. Just as with free samples of food, some people only want the sample, with no intention of anything more, but those who are interested in something more aren't going to bolt just because they get a free sample.
133
129/Becky: "I sometimes feel farther away from finding a man with integrity than I did then. . . .Either I meet someone I could be interested in and something then dashes those hopes..."
OK, I'm curious so I'll bite. How is it that all these men you meet lack integrity? And what are the things that dash your hopes?
OK, I'm curious so I'll bite. How is it that all these men you meet lack integrity? And what are the things that dash your hopes?
134
You're a fucking mess, and it's pushing people away, so you need to clean up your mess before you get into a relationship. Want proof? Read your letter back to yourself. Is that the voice you want to hear from a potential partner? Probably not. And if that's the voice that your friends are hearing, then they aren't going to introduce you to their single friends, because they'll say to themselves: she's attractive, and really nice, but a complete mess. So, what you need to do is find something that you really like, and throw yourself into it. Stop *actively* looking for a partner for life, but rather look for a friend with whom to do things that you really like. Going to concerts, playing music (don't join a choir because all the guys are gay or married), painting, hiking, biking - whatever turns your crank. Do those things whole-heartedly so that at the end of the day, you feel like you had a really good day or achieved something special. After a few months (don't expect anything overnight), your friends will think you aren't too fucked up to introduce to their friends, the people you meet doing the things you like will know you're worth getting to know better, and even if it doesn't work, you'll be enjoying life.
135
Thank you so much for all the advice.I'm taking the time to really sit back and read these.
My decision to not sleep with guys too early is because I spent most of my mouth having casual sex, and thought 'okay, maybe I need to thank my lucky stars I'm std-free and stop jumping in the sack with every cutie who says heyyyy'
As for being alone, I have spent so much time alone. I really do think I'm a good person, I don't hate myseld and I'm not waiting for a dude to confirm I'm great. I'm just sad that no-one's seen it yet. I read a lot, I taught myself french, I DJ on saturday nights. I have friends, but nobody really close. My friends all have best friends or siblings or boyfriends, so I only get called when no-one else is around, which I understand. I have a cat too!
But, yes, I'm only 27. I still have time. I was just moping because I've been single so so long that 27 feels like 53. I'm trying really hard to stay positive, and stay strong. I'm going to try to meet some more friends too because I think my loneliness isn't entirely because of a lack of romance.
Thank you again for the help - I feel a lot less alone with all of the insight!
-shit
My decision to not sleep with guys too early is because I spent most of my mouth having casual sex, and thought 'okay, maybe I need to thank my lucky stars I'm std-free and stop jumping in the sack with every cutie who says heyyyy'
As for being alone, I have spent so much time alone. I really do think I'm a good person, I don't hate myseld and I'm not waiting for a dude to confirm I'm great. I'm just sad that no-one's seen it yet. I read a lot, I taught myself french, I DJ on saturday nights. I have friends, but nobody really close. My friends all have best friends or siblings or boyfriends, so I only get called when no-one else is around, which I understand. I have a cat too!
But, yes, I'm only 27. I still have time. I was just moping because I've been single so so long that 27 feels like 53. I'm trying really hard to stay positive, and stay strong. I'm going to try to meet some more friends too because I think my loneliness isn't entirely because of a lack of romance.
Thank you again for the help - I feel a lot less alone with all of the insight!
-shit
137
Also, I'm not a complete mess. I'm a very stable person, I just had a rough holiday. I would be a complete mess if I I wasn't smart enough to say 'okaaay, I have no friends and am super depressed so I need to seek advice from someone rational'.
Who else but Dan Savage and his followers.
Who else but Dan Savage and his followers.
139
Advice from a Toronto girl.
Seek friends before boyfriend.
It sounds like you're doing everything right, but somethings not clicking.
My advice to you is to pretend you are OKAY WITH BEING SINGLE. That you WANT to be single. Every guy can fuck off right now because YOU are fabulously single, and they are MISSING OUT on you until you feel like maybe you might want to date someone.
Now that men are out of the way for a while, focus on making a awesome friend. Someone who shares one cool interest, and makes you laugh all the time. Do fun crazy things with them. Go take a dance class at the street dance academy downtown. They're not much at all, and you can drop in on them. Go indoor rock-climbing. Have them over and try to make homemade cheese or something. Just try to be as positive and fun as you can. I found that once I cut down on my complaaaaiiiiiniiing, and try to only let positive things cross my lips, it's helped immensely with cementing friendships.
Also.....honestly...stay away from the white boys. IME, white boys from toronto are self satisfied douchebags. Date a Filipino guy, you won't be sorry. ;)
Seek friends before boyfriend.
It sounds like you're doing everything right, but somethings not clicking.
My advice to you is to pretend you are OKAY WITH BEING SINGLE. That you WANT to be single. Every guy can fuck off right now because YOU are fabulously single, and they are MISSING OUT on you until you feel like maybe you might want to date someone.
Now that men are out of the way for a while, focus on making a awesome friend. Someone who shares one cool interest, and makes you laugh all the time. Do fun crazy things with them. Go take a dance class at the street dance academy downtown. They're not much at all, and you can drop in on them. Go indoor rock-climbing. Have them over and try to make homemade cheese or something. Just try to be as positive and fun as you can. I found that once I cut down on my complaaaaiiiiiniiing, and try to only let positive things cross my lips, it's helped immensely with cementing friendships.
Also.....honestly...stay away from the white boys. IME, white boys from toronto are self satisfied douchebags. Date a Filipino guy, you won't be sorry. ;)
140
I hope you're still reading these, because I wanted to address one thing you said: "Am I too much or am I just too old?" I'd like to suggest that you're just now getting to be old ENOUGH. Early and mid-twenties can be a barren wasteland for women who are smart and confident. It can be hard to find men who not only want this in a partner but are confident enough in themselves to seek it out. But they are out there. And, as an aside, they are quite likely older than you.
This time last year, I could have written this exact same letter. I was 26 and had never had anything even approaching an actual relationship. And my friends and family told me the same things that people here have said: Love your own life, love yourself, get out and do the things that YOU want to do without any regard for how it will help you meet guys. I had made peace with the idea that I was going to be on my own (which is an empowering mindset in and of itself and can serve you well in a relationship, too because it makes you into your own strong, self-reliant person. That kind of strength makes you a better partner), and almost the moment that clicked for me, I met the most amazing person I could ever have imagined, and we've been together for nearly a year now.
You are NOT alone, and there's nothing wrong with you.
This time last year, I could have written this exact same letter. I was 26 and had never had anything even approaching an actual relationship. And my friends and family told me the same things that people here have said: Love your own life, love yourself, get out and do the things that YOU want to do without any regard for how it will help you meet guys. I had made peace with the idea that I was going to be on my own (which is an empowering mindset in and of itself and can serve you well in a relationship, too because it makes you into your own strong, self-reliant person. That kind of strength makes you a better partner), and almost the moment that clicked for me, I met the most amazing person I could ever have imagined, and we've been together for nearly a year now.
You are NOT alone, and there's nothing wrong with you.
141
I was 33 when I met my first partner, and we were together 15 years, and remain friends. I was 48 when I met my second partner, and we married in Canada this past August--I'm 55 and he is 56.
mr pinky
mr pinky
142
I have nothing positive to add to this. I hate to say this, but it is what it is. I was where you are, living in Toronto. I almost sent Dan the same letter. I searched for men online, lived in the downtown area, tried night classes in community college, even went back to school full time, participated in extra curricular activities, I put myself out there. I ended up hanging out with gay men, because at least I knew they valued me, and not my parts, and finally, after a date gone wrong, became a single mom.
She is my joy, my daughter. I sometimes long for male companionship, but I find I can live without it, now that I'm consumed with raising my child.
I'm not shutting myself off from the idea of someday meeting someone, but at this point in my life, it doesn't seem like a possibility for the near future. Home by six, bed by eight, and then it's me and a good book until she's a little older and more independant. And we have a good life.
She is my joy, my daughter. I sometimes long for male companionship, but I find I can live without it, now that I'm consumed with raising my child.
I'm not shutting myself off from the idea of someday meeting someone, but at this point in my life, it doesn't seem like a possibility for the near future. Home by six, bed by eight, and then it's me and a good book until she's a little older and more independant. And we have a good life.
143
I'm 33 and haven't had sex in 5 years. I haven't had a girlfriend ever. This despite being very smart, accomplished, spending years in feminist activism, and being not so awful looking. I also happen to LOVE Toronto. I want to meet this girl.
145
I used to date men who treated me like shit. That doesn't happen anymore, but Men didn't change- I changed. I started looking for different things, I started really looking at guys who hadn't even been on my radar before.
And yeah- two months to have sex isn't really... normal anymore. I think it does set you up for guys who are into the chase. Lots of awesome guys would be turned off, not because they had to wait, but because they're presented with a stiff and inflexible rule on the first date.
I used to date men who treated me like shit. That doesn't happen anymore, but Men didn't change- I changed. I started looking for different things, I started really looking at guys who hadn't even been on my radar before.
And yeah- two months to have sex isn't really... normal anymore. I think it does set you up for guys who are into the chase. Lots of awesome guys would be turned off, not because they had to wait, but because they're presented with a stiff and inflexible rule on the first date.
146
I think two commenters mentioned it and I'll second that idea - find some time to volunteer with organizations that you care about, do something you'll find satisfying.
Be happy, enjoy your twenties and focus on meeting great, new people and the rest is just luck. To that I'll add, go to parties, never turn one down. You never know who you'll meet (god knows I need to stick to that one for 2010). Good luck.
Be happy, enjoy your twenties and focus on meeting great, new people and the rest is just luck. To that I'll add, go to parties, never turn one down. You never know who you'll meet (god knows I need to stick to that one for 2010). Good luck.
147
Two months into a relationship is too early to start thinking it is "serious." You hardly know someone after two months. If being serious is a prerequisite for sex, sex needs to wait a lot longer than two months. It is understandable that these guys flee when the orgasm has worn off. After a few months of dating, they aren't ready to be Mr. SHIT. They like your company, they think you're hot, but at a few months in they aren't ready to be serious. They sound like reasonable guys.
My advice is to either be serious about being serious, and don't fuck guys you've only known a few months or drop the idea that sex = serious. Whether or not you need therapy to sort out what you want, only you know, SHIT. If you're needy enough that you *do* feel serious after a couple of months, therapy might help. On the other hand if you're saying "serious" when you mean "comfortable," you might simply need to change your vocabulary and stop scaring away the menfolk.
Good look!
My advice is to either be serious about being serious, and don't fuck guys you've only known a few months or drop the idea that sex = serious. Whether or not you need therapy to sort out what you want, only you know, SHIT. If you're needy enough that you *do* feel serious after a couple of months, therapy might help. On the other hand if you're saying "serious" when you mean "comfortable," you might simply need to change your vocabulary and stop scaring away the menfolk.
Good look!
148
I'm all for enjoying sex, but it sounds as if these sexual encounters leave you feeling used. I would suggest delaying sex longer than a couple of months. The more they have to wait, the more you see of their real self, good or bad. A lot of people actually wait upto six months.
Secondly, think about what is your criteria for having sex with a guy? It sounds as if you specifically want to sleep with guys you have an emotional connection with. Your dating relationship, before you hit the sack, should be focussed on getting to know each other. Have deep conversations. Spend time with his friends. Get a feeling for whether you trust him. Make sure you don't sleep with a guys just because you've been dating for a while and it feels like the time where you "should" have sex. In your mind, set a particular standard that a guy has to meet. You want to make sure that he has similar interests as you, similar beliefs about life. Make sure you feel emotionally safe with him. *Then* have sex.
Good luck!
Secondly, think about what is your criteria for having sex with a guy? It sounds as if you specifically want to sleep with guys you have an emotional connection with. Your dating relationship, before you hit the sack, should be focussed on getting to know each other. Have deep conversations. Spend time with his friends. Get a feeling for whether you trust him. Make sure you don't sleep with a guys just because you've been dating for a while and it feels like the time where you "should" have sex. In your mind, set a particular standard that a guy has to meet. You want to make sure that he has similar interests as you, similar beliefs about life. Make sure you feel emotionally safe with him. *Then* have sex.
Good luck!
149
People are taking the two month comment too literally. It's not like I mark a date on a calendar. I just be honest with men - I'm not seeking casual sex, so let's hang out and be friends, see if we get along. If you fall in looooove, let's start slowly making out - kiss, caress, maybe spend a few dates with just oral. Build up to the sex, like they used to before birth control. I'm being honest with them - why can't they be honest with themselves and me?
I have nothing against casual sex, I just don't want it anymore. I know I can get laid tonight and tomorrow, and keep getting laid everyday until I die. I can fill my bed with handsome and smart lovers who make my body tingle. I don't care, though - I want something different. I know I can get laid, but it would be amazing to know I can get spooned. Hugged. Complimented for my insightful comment instead of the body. I know I have great boobs, but I had remarkably little to do with their growth. My mind, however, that's allll me.
And honestly, I really do like myself and my life. I have a great life, I have a nice inside - I just get sad that I have no-one to share it with except my big fat pussy cat.
Butt (hehe) I have been taking people's advice - I went to an art show opening, I have been going to cafes and striking up convos. I don't even care so much about finding a "man", my goal now is to find a friend.
We live in a big, alienating world. I don't think I'm lonely because I'm needy or inflexible or any of the other things. I think I'm a great person who is lonely because it's hard to meet people. I think there's probably a lot of people out there like me - productive life, good self esteem, healthy, and alone every friday. In fact, I wonder if it isn't harder for people like me to make friends because people who are lazy, or have lower self esteems, or an unhealthy life would not want to be friends with me because I would make them feel bad about their choices....? I don't know. I'll ask my friends when I make some!
More...
I have nothing against casual sex, I just don't want it anymore. I know I can get laid tonight and tomorrow, and keep getting laid everyday until I die. I can fill my bed with handsome and smart lovers who make my body tingle. I don't care, though - I want something different. I know I can get laid, but it would be amazing to know I can get spooned. Hugged. Complimented for my insightful comment instead of the body. I know I have great boobs, but I had remarkably little to do with their growth. My mind, however, that's allll me.
And honestly, I really do like myself and my life. I have a great life, I have a nice inside - I just get sad that I have no-one to share it with except my big fat pussy cat.
Butt (hehe) I have been taking people's advice - I went to an art show opening, I have been going to cafes and striking up convos. I don't even care so much about finding a "man", my goal now is to find a friend.
We live in a big, alienating world. I don't think I'm lonely because I'm needy or inflexible or any of the other things. I think I'm a great person who is lonely because it's hard to meet people. I think there's probably a lot of people out there like me - productive life, good self esteem, healthy, and alone every friday. In fact, I wonder if it isn't harder for people like me to make friends because people who are lazy, or have lower self esteems, or an unhealthy life would not want to be friends with me because I would make them feel bad about their choices....? I don't know. I'll ask my friends when I make some!
150
So I take it we're not allowed to send personal messages to people who use the Stranger? Because we're all supposed to be strangers here....
I totally get that and am not all going to try and subvert the system even though I'd love to say if y'all are ever in Toronto, come meet me and see for yourself what a sweet girl I am.
Interesting setup. Oh, seattle...
I totally get that and am not all going to try and subvert the system even though I'd love to say if y'all are ever in Toronto, come meet me and see for yourself what a sweet girl I am.
Interesting setup. Oh, seattle...
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