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News & ArtsMonday, December 28, 2009
Homo / News Maybe We Should Emigrate To Canada Already
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 10:19 AM
Jonathan Rauch takes a look back at the wins and losses for gay marriage in 2009 and sees progress—painfully slow, maddeningly glacial progress.
For the gay marriage debate, 2009 was transitional instead of transformative, but the year was historic nonetheless. To mangle Churchill, it was not the end, nor even the beginning of the end, but it was at least the beginning of the middle.... As the year ends, it is clear that neither side can knock the other off the field. Gay marriage is firmly established in five states (with the District of Columbia's likely to follow suit), but it is banned, often by constitutional amendment, in most of the others. Unless the Supreme Court shocks the country and itself by declaring gay marriage a constitutional right, the issue will take years, perhaps decades, to resolve. All-or-nothing activists will be disappointed, but the country will get the time it needs to make up its mind.
Gee. I'm thrilled that the country will get all the time it needs to make up its mind about our basic civil rights. But "decades" is an awfully long time to wait—and an awful lot of injustice will occur while America makes up its mind. Meanwhile a saner country is moving quickly on gay marriage...
Portugal's Socialist government has drawn up a proposal that would make Portugal the sixth European country to allow gay marriage. The law is almost certain to pass, as the center-left Socialist government has the support of all left-of-center parties, who together have a majority in Parliament. Right-of-center parties oppose the measure.... [The] first gay marriage ceremonies could take place in April—a month before Pope Benedict XVI is due on a four-day official visit.
In other gay news: straight Americans are comfortable with gay and lesbian elected officials writing the law, voting on the law, and enforcing the law. They just don't think gay and lesbian Americans should be equal under the law. Not yet anyway. Check back in a few decades.
2
Maybe.
If you call
"One Step Forward and TWO Steps Back"
progress...
Voters in super Liberal Maine and California gave homosexuals the back of their hand and took back marriage.
sorry.....
If you call
"One Step Forward and TWO Steps Back"
progress...
Voters in super Liberal Maine and California gave homosexuals the back of their hand and took back marriage.
sorry.....
3
I immigrated to Canada in 2001. Next to quitting smoking it's the best thing I've ever done. If you're thinking of it, you should do it.
4
"They just don't think gay and lesbian Americans should be equal under the law."
sorry.
we're calling BullShit.
we have it on good authority that Dan and his Lesbian friend got a marriage license with no problem at all.
even after they made sure the Clerk knew they were "gay and lesbian".
a two-fer!
sounds pretty damn "equal under the law" to me
sorry.
we're calling BullShit.
we have it on good authority that Dan and his Lesbian friend got a marriage license with no problem at all.
even after they made sure the Clerk knew they were "gay and lesbian".
a two-fer!
sounds pretty damn "equal under the law" to me
6
'America' is an imposter; its real name is 'Murka' or 'Dumbfuckistan', and just _thinks_ its America. How to spot the difference: 'America' believes in the Enlightenment ideas than motivated the Founding Fathers (and their land-hunger as well, but no-one's perfect), and so knows that institutions are made for human good rather than the other way around, should be altered or deleted when they are not to the good, and use reason and the Natural Religion to determine the Good (e.g., killing people to send them to Heaven is bad).
'Murka'/'DFstan' believes that The Way Things Were is better, even as it praises progress and innovation; it derides our educational faults even as it tells its children 'Don't get smart with me!' and privileges the gut over the brain. Above all, it feels that the norms and beliefs of the small islands they call home are the Laws of the Universe, which Shaw correctly pointed-out was nearly the definition of a barbarian.
'Murka'/'DFstan' believes that The Way Things Were is better, even as it praises progress and innovation; it derides our educational faults even as it tells its children 'Don't get smart with me!' and privileges the gut over the brain. Above all, it feels that the norms and beliefs of the small islands they call home are the Laws of the Universe, which Shaw correctly pointed-out was nearly the definition of a barbarian.
7
Yes, glacially slow, that's erosion for you be it in nature or entrenched views. History reveals that when it comes to treating one-another with equality it takes decades, with hope that each generation becomes less entrenched.
Celebrate the successes, learn from the brick walls, and try to see the wall as something to overcome with ingenuity, persistence, and endurance. The politics of compassion wins in the end, always, even-though it is the road less traveled and requires the trail to be blazed. Hang in there and own what is yours, call a spade a spade, and a spouse a spouse.
I'm here to help with those brick walls.
Celebrate the successes, learn from the brick walls, and try to see the wall as something to overcome with ingenuity, persistence, and endurance. The politics of compassion wins in the end, always, even-though it is the road less traveled and requires the trail to be blazed. Hang in there and own what is yours, call a spade a spade, and a spouse a spouse.
I'm here to help with those brick walls.
8
You know what won't be "glacially slow"?
The rate of spread of next STD plague.
Your Natural Religion is going to Damn You straight to Epidemiological Hell because you didn't learn the lessons from AIDS when you had the chance.
The rate of spread of next STD plague.
Your Natural Religion is going to Damn You straight to Epidemiological Hell because you didn't learn the lessons from AIDS when you had the chance.
9
And with regard to #1 super: this fake 'America' is _deeply_ sad that ending Jim Crow, much less Loving v. Virginia, was never put to a popular vote, especially at the state level.
#5: One of the reasons I _don't_ leave it is that I love it. I love it the way I love my brilliant cousin with a kind heart who occasionally rips-off liquor stores. I love it the way I love my Mum even though she's committed to believing in astrology, or my brother who likes to whip people for fun, or my Dad who thinks he's good because he never drinks or eats meat regardless of what else he does.
When you love people or a nation, you don't abandon them until they become a positive threat to your life or liberty. You know that their defects are quite possibly incurable, but you commit yourself to trying to change them...because, really, there is no 'do', only 'try'.
#5: One of the reasons I _don't_ leave it is that I love it. I love it the way I love my brilliant cousin with a kind heart who occasionally rips-off liquor stores. I love it the way I love my Mum even though she's committed to believing in astrology, or my brother who likes to whip people for fun, or my Dad who thinks he's good because he never drinks or eats meat regardless of what else he does.
When you love people or a nation, you don't abandon them until they become a positive threat to your life or liberty. You know that their defects are quite possibly incurable, but you commit yourself to trying to change them...because, really, there is no 'do', only 'try'.
10
You know, I'm really disappointed more isn't being made out of WA Ref 71. To me it is a success that is being lost in the shuffle.
France and the UK and Germany don't have "gay marriage" as such but they have an equal civil union law and for some reason American gay-marriage proponants lump those countries in with Canada, Sweden, etc that actually HAVE gay marriage. Yet, when it comes to our own shores Civil Unions get pooh-poohed and dismissed by those same gay people.
I don't get it. If France was able to do a secular civil union law, I don't see why that's not good enough here to the "seperate but equal" crew. Mississippi isn't going to legalize gay marriage anytime soon, so I think incremental steps state to state is the way to go. WA's model seems like a good one.
France and the UK and Germany don't have "gay marriage" as such but they have an equal civil union law and for some reason American gay-marriage proponants lump those countries in with Canada, Sweden, etc that actually HAVE gay marriage. Yet, when it comes to our own shores Civil Unions get pooh-poohed and dismissed by those same gay people.
I don't get it. If France was able to do a secular civil union law, I don't see why that's not good enough here to the "seperate but equal" crew. Mississippi isn't going to legalize gay marriage anytime soon, so I think incremental steps state to state is the way to go. WA's model seems like a good one.
11
#8:
No, the 'Natural Religion', of which Paine, Jefferson, and others wrote, involves keen observation of what actually happens in the world with an eye to seeing what brings people happiness. It would therefore very probably encourage neither abstinence nor excess---in sex, drugs, belief, all the other intoxicants---in favour of temperance (as in the original sense of the word, meaning not drinking to excess, probably limiting oneself to beer most of the time).
And, as getting an STD is usually not a good idea, it would encourage every way of avoiding them---as opposed to more traditional religions, which see them and their pains as moral consequences of sexual sin, rather than the practical consequences of human and viral biologies....
No, the 'Natural Religion', of which Paine, Jefferson, and others wrote, involves keen observation of what actually happens in the world with an eye to seeing what brings people happiness. It would therefore very probably encourage neither abstinence nor excess---in sex, drugs, belief, all the other intoxicants---in favour of temperance (as in the original sense of the word, meaning not drinking to excess, probably limiting oneself to beer most of the time).
And, as getting an STD is usually not a good idea, it would encourage every way of avoiding them---as opposed to more traditional religions, which see them and their pains as moral consequences of sexual sin, rather than the practical consequences of human and viral biologies....
12
To be honest, the article is correct - you should go now, unless you're planning on getting married in about 20 years.
Besides, if you become Canadian and live there for three years, your kids will be Canadians too ...
Had fun looking at picture albums of my family at gay pride events way back in the 70s and 80s - hard to believe you guys are so slow down here.
Besides, if you become Canadian and live there for three years, your kids will be Canadians too ...
Had fun looking at picture albums of my family at gay pride events way back in the 70s and 80s - hard to believe you guys are so slow down here.
13
6
9
ooooh!
mind reading tricks!!
now tell me how tall I am and how much I weigh and I'll REALLY be impressed....
9
ooooh!
mind reading tricks!!
now tell me how tall I am and how much I weigh and I'll REALLY be impressed....
14
If you think we've been getting shafted in the rights department, it's time to take a look at the glacial pace of rights that other minorities have experienced in this country. Women and African Americans have both been battling the religious right in this country for simple equality under the law for centuries.
16
11
So your 'Natural Religion' and keen observation would reveal that promiscuous sexual behavior inevitably leads to disease and emotional trauma and the realization that "temperance"- postponing sexual behavior until in a longterm/lifelong relationship and confining sexual behavior to that partner is what brings people happiness.
Interesting.
Have you shared this with Dan?
So your 'Natural Religion' and keen observation would reveal that promiscuous sexual behavior inevitably leads to disease and emotional trauma and the realization that "temperance"- postponing sexual behavior until in a longterm/lifelong relationship and confining sexual behavior to that partner is what brings people happiness.
Interesting.
Have you shared this with Dan?
17
I'll move to Canada if and only if I don't have to take a real job, and can instead leach off of their much better public welfare system. Another mocha, please.
19
The whole "I'm moving to Canada!" is so tired...Running away from fixable problems is cowardly. Canada also has right wing asshole politicians and some laws that are just as inane as our own. It is NOT paradise.
And, really, is Canada THAT great? It has bleh weather and a bland personality...also, expensive liquor and hideous accents....and, too much hockey.
And, really, is Canada THAT great? It has bleh weather and a bland personality...also, expensive liquor and hideous accents....and, too much hockey.
22
20
Look-
if you don't pay or give ANY benefits you have to be grateful for whatever you can get for an intern....
Look-
if you don't pay or give ANY benefits you have to be grateful for whatever you can get for an intern....
24
The main problem with the United States on these issues is the South. Not everyone in the South, but certainly as a region. The South has been the main obstacle historically and even today to ending slavery, ensuring civil rights for nonwhites, non-Protestants, women, and LGBT people in this country. The rest of the United States is culturally and socially not at all unlike Canada. In many parts of the U.S., in fact, Americans feel they have way more in common socially and culturally with Canada than they do with, say, Texas or Mississippi (and often have families ties across the border, too). Figure out a way to denationalize the political influence of the South, and then the rest of the United States can be the country we want it to be.
26
24
You had your chance, Assholes-
now you're stuck with us
(kindly STFU...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzbdY_rPt…
You had your chance, Assholes-
now you're stuck with us
(kindly STFU...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzbdY_rPt…
27
1) Unless you have more to bring to Canada beyond your smiling face and a dream of a marriage certificate, Canadians don't want American ex-pats playing the greener grass card. Canadians want immigrants who are invested in being Canadian, not for being treated like a roach motel for cranky ex-pats.
2) The U.S. heavily invested its governance structure around states' rights. Canada did not. Unless American states are willing to cede some autonomy, then don't expect that to change. Think about this when you compare how good Washington's got it compared with, say, Mississippi. Would you really want to give up some of Washington's legal authority and reluctantly adopt law popular in the Deep South in order to form a "more perfect union" of state cohesion sea to shining sea?
Didn't think so.
2) The U.S. heavily invested its governance structure around states' rights. Canada did not. Unless American states are willing to cede some autonomy, then don't expect that to change. Think about this when you compare how good Washington's got it compared with, say, Mississippi. Would you really want to give up some of Washington's legal authority and reluctantly adopt law popular in the Deep South in order to form a "more perfect union" of state cohesion sea to shining sea?
Didn't think so.
28
@19, prtecisely. To everyone else contemplating it, here's a how-to on how to threaten your move to Canada.
30
I don't know why any reasonable American wouldn't want to move to Canada. Less crime (particularly gun crime); fewer insane politicians and religious wackjobs; less religious interference with government generally; same-sex marriage is the law throughout the country; publicly funded, mostly free health care....
31
I'm not sure why you all keep spewing shit about "Oh if this continues we should move to Canada" Hey Butt Plug... in the event it ever crossed your mind... we don't want you up here. But then it wouldn't have crossed your mind because Americans have become accustomed to feeling like they own the world and can go wherever they want. That bully in the schoolyard is why you're under constant attack from guys with firecrackers in their pants.... stay and fight the fight sheep.. you voted for them.... just cus you're yanks doesn't mean you're welcome up here... I'm sick of hearing American accents on the streets of Vancouver, gay or straight!!!!
In the event I didn't make it clear... you are not welcome here!!!!!
In the event I didn't make it clear... you are not welcome here!!!!!
34
Some of the best Canadians I've met have been escaped Americans. They're the best. We could use some progressive back-up here, too--our federal government is run by a guy who's like a cross between Cheney and Bush.
Anyway, we'd love you up here! You do good work where you are though...maybe best not to mess with success?
Anyway, we'd love you up here! You do good work where you are though...maybe best not to mess with success?
35
Dear Dan. You have been threatening to move up here for years now. You said it when we made gay marriage legal. You said it when we made medical marijuana legal. You said it when comparing our health care system to your own. I even heard you say it in person one night at Lee's Palace here in Toronto a few years back. Point being you say it all the fucking time. So Dan, put up or shut up.
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