Slog
News & ArtsMonday, December 21, 2009
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: The Limits of GGG
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 2:17 PM
Rather than point out the pleasure of intimate relationships arrives from a sharing which both parties are in agreement with; I will share experiences for you to ponder when one might consider someone's partner a selfish lover for not indulging their fetishes. I have had many exes to whom I was not inclined to indulge fetishes because I have no natural inclination toward women, so why would I want to eat pussy because my partner had a fantasy about me doing so when I find it repulsive? I have tried with many the backdoor properly and found no pleasure in it. I would think that choosing not to indulge another's fetishes does not make one selfish; rather it predisposes one to self-respect and to not allow abuse in one's life.This may be a bit of a shock to some, however in truth it is no different than another one of my other exes who was a closet alcoholic. He wanted me to drink with him a fifth daily. Was I selfish for not obliging when I am not thus inclined to drink? What about another ex who took me to therapy as he felt it imperative I continue in our relationship because he loved me enough to beat me senseless? I was suppose to call him God.
FYI, If one does not like it, it's commonly recognized as abuse whether the non appreciating partner acquiesced to keep the partner pressing the issue, or if it is forced upon them whether emotionally, physically, or sexually regardless of how that force manifested. You recognize other forms of abuse, but when it comes to sexual abuse, you seem to endorse it.
Were I thus inclined to please, please, please, as you commonly suggest, I would currently have a penis attached in addition to my regular tools just now so I could have fucked my last boyfriend in the ass with the “real thing” as he did not find the strap on quite to his taste. Since, as he said, he is not gay, he felt it was imperative to our relationship for me to add the robotics. As I refused, he now frequents sex professionals he finds too expensive for what they offer sexually having bored with it in short order.
Questions for you, Mr. Savage Love Beast: What is the difference between the alcoholic, the wife beater, and the special needs sex addicts regardless of fetishes? How far should a bitch have to go to not be a considered a selfish lover in your books? Have you ever thought about what cultivates love, rather than blow-your-nose sex which becomes boring relatively quickly as lower heights are sought to achieve the same thrill? Who but a selfish control freak would derive pleasure from sex with a partner they know is not enjoying the game issued upon them? Who would want to be with a petty selfish asshole that resorts to calling the people who do not sacrifice themselves for abuse selfish with your support?
I doubt you'll publish this unless you intend it as toilet paper for your greater appreciating base audience to wipe their asses on. Please remind them if the newspaper is not wet, paper cuts leading to discomfort and possible infection may result. But personally, do I give a shit about low life selfish fuck wads who never look beyond themselves and then beg you to placate them with accusations of selfishness toward others who might not sacrifice their self love and respect to empower them? Need, I answer? Now, please, Shit Stain.
Nonempathic Ordained Amorously Nostalgic Girl Embracing Love
My response after the jump.
I encourage people to be GGG—"good, giving, and game"—which requires them, as I've explained again and again, to consider all of their partner's reasonable sexual requests. By no means do I believe that any and all requests must be granted, NOANGEL, particularly at the expense of a person's health or safety. Here's my advice to a woman who's husband wanted her to go out, pick up a strange man, have sex with him, and then come home and tell him about while he ate the stranger's come out of his wife's pussy:
While I think people should be GGG in the sack, I didn't say "game for anything." There are things that fall under the AFTF label—"a fetish too far"—and your husband's sudden desire to eat some strange man's come out of your pussy is definitely AFTF. You are under no obligation to risk contracting an STD to indulge your husband, HH. Your husband also can't ask you to risk picking up some stranger in a bar who, for all you know, might turn out to be a nutty, diseased, violent asshole.
I also don't always side with the kinky partner in a relationship.
As for your particular experiences, NOANGEL, I don't think you were obligated to eat pussy to please a partner. (But a girl-boy-girl threesome that includes no girl-on-girl contact doesn't strike me as an unreasonable request.) If you gave anal a try and found the experience to be unpleasant, you have an absolute right to yank anal off the menu. And no one is obligated—and I've never suggested that anyone is obligated—to acquire a drinking problem or submit to physical or sexual abuse. Nor do I expect you or anyone else to grow a dick.
Bitch. Please.
I do, however, believe that people should keep an open mind. Sometimes we react negatively to a sexual request—we freak out about a partner's relatively benign kink—because it's unfamiliar, not because it's something we can't or won't enjoy. Too many people mistake unfamiliar for disgusting and reject kinky requests reflexively. I don't believe, of course, that someone should suck it up and suffer to get his or her partner off. But being capable of finding pleasure in giving pleasure—to be able to enjoy, for instance, your foot fetish partner's enjoyment of your feet even if you don't have a foot fetish yourself—means you're a good, decent, indulgent lover, not the victim of sexual abuse.
No two people are perfect for each other, of course, and not all sexual requests can or should be fulfilled. But two people who love each other and want to make their long-term relationship work have to engage in a good faith give-and-take, NOANGEL, they have to open up to each other sexually and craft a mutually satisfying sexual repertoire that doesn't leave either feeling cheated or abused. Does everyone get everything he or she wants? No, of course not. But each of us should have the right to try and get our needs met (without being abusive or coercive), the responsibility to meet our partner's needs if we can (which we can't do if we're selfish or petty), and the ability to recognize when the sexual gulf is too great to overcome—and the sense, in the case of the latter, to end the relationship without making coercive threats or submitting to sex acts that leave us feeling diminished and dehumanized.
And I know—I know from personal experience—that a willingness to step outside your comfort zones, to accommodate a partner's needs, to try new things and grow together sexually, can "cultivate love."
1
Wow. From the tone and content of that letter, I don't think she is aware of what her REAL problem is, which is that something crawled it's way into her rectal orifice and expired.
3
Man, what an ax-grinding loser NOANGEL is. I can see why she has so many exes, and why she seems to attract some of the worst guys out there.
5
Great response, Dan.
I think a lot of people don't know what GGG really means or feel that if they want to call themselves sex positive, they have to be gung-ho about exploring every aspect of sexuality, whether they desire it or not.
I think a lot of people don't know what GGG really means or feel that if they want to call themselves sex positive, they have to be gung-ho about exploring every aspect of sexuality, whether they desire it or not.
6
ya the writing style was incredibly obnoxious, i'm surprised i read the whole thing. staying with someone who beats you isn't GGG. idiot.
7
NOANGEL might want to consider therapy because she seems to have terrible taste in men. There are people who have fetishes, and then there are guys who want you to call them God while they beat you up, want you to binge drink with them, or want you to surgically alter your gentials. People may misinterpret this as blaming the victim -- I'm not -- but at a certain point, if all of your boyfriends have been assholes, you have to start to wonder why you keep being attracted to assholes. A single (slightly hostile) letter to Dan Savage is probably not the best overview of a person, and maybe NOANGEL has also had a bunch of lovely, mutually fulfilling relationships, but it sounds like she's been involved with more than her fair share of douchebags.
8
So so sorry, NOANGEL, for all that you have suffered. Abuse be it physical, verbal, emotional, and sexual does indeed fuck with ones head. Knowing ones boundaries is a very important thing, as is knowing what you can and can not be flexible with.
Take care. Life and love get better with time. You're going to be okay, sweetie. Give it time. My $0.02, from someone who has been there and discovered there is another side, which you are more than welcome to disregard.
Best wishes.
Take care. Life and love get better with time. You're going to be okay, sweetie. Give it time. My $0.02, from someone who has been there and discovered there is another side, which you are more than welcome to disregard.
Best wishes.
9
Actually all,
NOANGEL sounds normal to me. The level of anger expressed is common with victims of abuse. Recovery is a pendulum ride, it swings from not being able to recognize abuse to seeing abuse in everything, eventually the pendulum stops. Anger is a secondary response, in this instance I wager it's from pain. She needs grace.
Just my $0.02, feel free to toss it in the dustbin.
NOANGEL sounds normal to me. The level of anger expressed is common with victims of abuse. Recovery is a pendulum ride, it swings from not being able to recognize abuse to seeing abuse in everything, eventually the pendulum stops. Anger is a secondary response, in this instance I wager it's from pain. She needs grace.
Just my $0.02, feel free to toss it in the dustbin.
10
I hope she's really happy being alone, because with that attitude, I have little doubt that she'll spend the rest of her life in that condition. Whew!
11
@ 9, that's very thoughtful and considerate of you. I sure hope you're right, because she does sound very miserable right now. I also hope she recognizes that she chose a rather inappropriate target for her anger, as she seems to be blaming Dan for legitimizing her asshole boyfriends' behavior.
14
I found myself strangely attracted to NOANGEL. I love it when she calls Dan "Mr. Savage Love Beast."
15
@11- Yeah, I was kind of taken aback by her choice of targets. Seems like she's gone along with some things she really wasn't up for, been taken advantage of by some guys who found her easy to manipulate, and has decided that Dan said that it was OK. I'm not sure why people are insulting her attitude in general. If you've got limits, you've got limits. Be clear about them and don't let other people make you feel bad about them. Don't date people who can't deal with your limits.
16
@10 I am sure she will find abusive assholes who will pressure her into doing things she doesn't enjoy with that attitude. Oh wait yes of course that must be it.
17
Holy jeebus that chick is one pissed off woman! Slightly hostile? That letter was dripping with anger.
Get some professional therapy help please before you completely burn up.
Get some professional therapy help please before you completely burn up.
20
Weird... Mr. Savage Love Beast is how we refer to Dan in my house... perhaps I should remind Mrs Womyn2me of the opt out option to GGG (Known as OOOGGG)
On the other hand, she would never write like that, no way no how do I marry people who write like that
On the other hand, she would never write like that, no way no how do I marry people who write like that
21
NOANGEL seriously has some anger issues. Whether from past abuse or some other cause, I don't know. But she needs more than a bit of advice from Dan; she needs therapy.
I've read Dan's advice for years. I've always taken GGG to mean that we should be game to trying a few things that are just slightly outside our current comfort zone. To Indulge our lover's mild kinks occasionally, even if they don't really turn us on all that much. Much like I might cook a lover's favorite meal once in a while, even if it isn't something I like all that much. I've never taken that to mean we are obligated to suffer abuse at the hands of our lovers, nor capitulate to any and every demand. It is merely a suggestion to broaden our sexual horizons a bit. NOANGEL is completely misreading the meaning of GGG.
I've read Dan's advice for years. I've always taken GGG to mean that we should be game to trying a few things that are just slightly outside our current comfort zone. To Indulge our lover's mild kinks occasionally, even if they don't really turn us on all that much. Much like I might cook a lover's favorite meal once in a while, even if it isn't something I like all that much. I've never taken that to mean we are obligated to suffer abuse at the hands of our lovers, nor capitulate to any and every demand. It is merely a suggestion to broaden our sexual horizons a bit. NOANGEL is completely misreading the meaning of GGG.
22
So does watching your SO's favorite TV show or eating at their favorite restaurant count as abuse then? What about agreeing to disagree in an argument or accepting their beliefs?
Dan's always been about encouraging people to indulge their SO's neutral/slightly unpleasant kinks. The point is to is less to "suffer through it"and more "grin and bear it" and enjoy making someone else happy....what a thought!
Dan's always been about encouraging people to indulge their SO's neutral/slightly unpleasant kinks. The point is to is less to "suffer through it"and more "grin and bear it" and enjoy making someone else happy....what a thought!
25
say what you will about NOANGEL, but she knew the response she would be getting and you all did your part.
GGG is just Dan's desire for attention. his greatest hope is to be some sort of cultural touchstone. NOANGEL made some interesting points. no surprise they were lost to Dan and his cheerleaders.
GGG is just Dan's desire for attention. his greatest hope is to be some sort of cultural touchstone. NOANGEL made some interesting points. no surprise they were lost to Dan and his cheerleaders.
26
Apparently everything in the world that NOANGEL dislikes, whether they've had to do it or whether it just plain exists, is abuse.
Poor creature must have the worst PTSD imaginable. I mean, every hour where "the 700 Club" isn't airing is exactly like a violent beating from an abusive spouse.
Poor, poor NOANGEL.
Poor creature must have the worst PTSD imaginable. I mean, every hour where "the 700 Club" isn't airing is exactly like a violent beating from an abusive spouse.
Poor, poor NOANGEL.
27
I'm with 19. This letter smells like horseshit to me. She had a partner who wanted her to get surgery (?) so he could be pegged by a shemale? WTF? Sorry, methinks NOANGEL is talking out of her "backdoor"...
28
nodevil:
So, the desire to see your sex partner having fun and being willing to at least give the old college try to something you are ambivalent about (which is what GGG is all about) is wrong? Please, elaborate.
So, the desire to see your sex partner having fun and being willing to at least give the old college try to something you are ambivalent about (which is what GGG is all about) is wrong? Please, elaborate.
29
There seems to have been several complaints recently in the comments re: GGG and how it "forces" a person to do things they don't like. I appreciate this post, even though the letter was hardly comprehensible, because it gives a reference point the next time someone says something stupid like "Dan claims I have to eat shit because that's what my BF wants me to do and I have to be GGG." Considering a request from a partner does not mean automatic approval--it means not automatically rejecting the request out of a knee-jerk reaction.
The reminder to not go into auto-negative mode when a partner makes a request applies to more than just the bedroom (or wherever you like to do it).
The reminder to not go into auto-negative mode when a partner makes a request applies to more than just the bedroom (or wherever you like to do it).
30
For some reason this letter sounded to me like it could have been written by Loveschild. Don't know why.
31
@31, I would guess it had something to do with the bad grammar and syntax and the "not gay" guy who wished she had a penis and left her, presumably because gay marriage had been legalized.
32
I think that NOANGEL is making a point that Dan's GGG definition is sometimes used by assholes to demand favors to which they are not entitled.
It's a reasonable point, though it's not put as clearly as it could have been.
I would like to see a column on this sometime, specifically on where the line is between "GGG" and "Doormat."
It's a reasonable point, though it's not put as clearly as it could have been.
I would like to see a column on this sometime, specifically on where the line is between "GGG" and "Doormat."
35
@30
The sanctimonious tone of voice, the unveiled hatred of Dan, the descriptions of failed relationships, and especially the incomprehensible grammar made me reach the same conclusion.
The sanctimonious tone of voice, the unveiled hatred of Dan, the descriptions of failed relationships, and especially the incomprehensible grammar made me reach the same conclusion.
37
@32: I see the point, but I'm not sure why it seems to be Dan's responsibility to tell people to use their heads. What's reasonable to you? What crosses the line for YOU between GGG and doormat? Something I'd consider GGG might scream "doormat" to someone else, and vice versa, and that's fine.
I think the clue here is, if you're just giving into requests/demands with no consideration for yourself, it's doormat territory. The entire spirit of GGG is consideration and compromise. @29 nailed it with:
"Considering a request from a partner does not mean automatic approval--it means not automatically rejecting the request out of a knee-jerk reaction."
Oy. Hell, if you (and this is the general "you") need a columnist to tell you what to think/feel about everything, yes, you're a doormat.
I think the clue here is, if you're just giving into requests/demands with no consideration for yourself, it's doormat territory. The entire spirit of GGG is consideration and compromise. @29 nailed it with:
"Considering a request from a partner does not mean automatic approval--it means not automatically rejecting the request out of a knee-jerk reaction."
Oy. Hell, if you (and this is the general "you") need a columnist to tell you what to think/feel about everything, yes, you're a doormat.
38
This letter reads like it was written by a schizophrenic. I don't think the points she makes are all that unreasonable, but man, she needs some some serious psychiatric help.
39
19 and 27 could be correct and this letter is horseshit, but I've seen and worked with woman who forced to change their physical appearance and that included elective surgery. I'm just saying it is in the realm of possibility. Just as it is possible that what was said in a benign manner was interpreted as a demand for surgery, but living from such a point of anger makes it impossible to recognize benign from malicious.
40
@37 has a great point. the complementary strategy to a GGG attitude is to try and find someone that matches your sexual interests. dan said this well in his last few paragraphs. if you're only thinking GGG you could go a fetish too far, but if you're only thinking find someone who matches you, you could be throwing the baby out w/ the bathwater.
this is one of my favorite pieces of advice, required reading for any SO.
this is one of my favorite pieces of advice, required reading for any SO.
43
Thanks Kim. Maybe. But douchebag sexist pig husband demanding his wife get a set of bolt-ons to make her look like Jessica Simpson I can envisage. Dick fetish guy asking her to get a dick? Maybe I'm naive, but that sounds like bullshit to me. Just saying.
Ps. Love the new avatar. Them's dancer's legs if I've ever seen them. The ink's pretty damn sexy too...
Ps. Love the new avatar. Them's dancer's legs if I've ever seen them. The ink's pretty damn sexy too...
44
This is probably the oddest-worded letter I've ever read. My brain felt staticky as I read it. Weird.
45
Steve, you make an excellent point. I've never worked with anyone who's partner demanded a dick as of yet. Triple D breasts, new nose, new chin, higher cheekbones, liposuction, hair color change, and tinted contacts those I've all heard of. Just that physical alteration is not unheard of.
Ps. Thank you for the compliment on my avatar.
Ps. Thank you for the compliment on my avatar.
47
The big thing for me re: GGG is that it is reciprocated. If my lover asks me to be in a threesome, then I reserve the right to ask for something of equivalent scope. The doormat begins when one party is giving but the other isn't and at that point it is time to look at DTMFA as an option.
49
@28
FTW.
Yup, that's her alright, but for godsakes *don't* ask her to elaborate. We all saw how that ended up the last time... She clearly tried really hard though so maybe we should give her an "E" for effort?
FTW.
Yup, that's her alright, but for godsakes *don't* ask her to elaborate. We all saw how that ended up the last time... She clearly tried really hard though so maybe we should give her an "E" for effort?
51
Yes, #29, I'm usually the first to mock people for their lack of critical reading/thinking skills when they misunderstand something Dan's written, but English is clearly not this woman's first language, so it's nice that Dan took the time to reexplain himself. Again. Some more. If only for her benefit.
52
The letter writer sounds like a crazy professor that works on my floor. She looks and dresses like a witch with frizzy hair and writes in an overwritten academic style similar to this letter. Everybody is afraid to do recycling wrong because she likes to accost people about that sort of thing.
54
Thank you @41 for the best laugh I've had this week.
I agree with only about 60% of Dan's advice but I read his column regularly because when he is right, he is REALLY RIGHT. I think his response to this letter is really right on. Anyone can extrapolate ridiculous extremes from a reasonable stance. It is clear to anyone that reads Dan even a few times that he doesn't consider GGG to be a synonym for humiliation and self-endangerment.
Two things jump out reading this letter. Once you get past the lawyer-like syntactic convolutions, there is a great deal of anger being expressed but the author doesn't seem to know where to direct it - at Dan? at herself? at her exes? at the world in general? The fact that she has had a long pattern of damaging sexual relationships makes it unlikely that a solution can be found in an advice column. There are good therapists to be found no matter your financial situation. It's worth the search.
Secondly, the difference between a healthy GGG dynamic and the kind NOANGEL describes is trust. Even when going beyond your comfort zone for the sake of your partner's pleasure, you should ALWAYS feel like there is trust in place. Trust that you can stop and either try again later or even say "No, this isn't for me." Trust that after the sexual act has been accomplished, there will still be a core relationship in place. Trust that you are seen as a person throughout the sexual act and not just a means for your partner to orgasm. In fact, the things in NOANGEL's letter don't even seem sexual. They seem violent. Being able to distinguish between the two would be a good first step to understanding what GGG is really about.
I really hope NOANGEL finds the help she needs.
I agree with only about 60% of Dan's advice but I read his column regularly because when he is right, he is REALLY RIGHT. I think his response to this letter is really right on. Anyone can extrapolate ridiculous extremes from a reasonable stance. It is clear to anyone that reads Dan even a few times that he doesn't consider GGG to be a synonym for humiliation and self-endangerment.
Two things jump out reading this letter. Once you get past the lawyer-like syntactic convolutions, there is a great deal of anger being expressed but the author doesn't seem to know where to direct it - at Dan? at herself? at her exes? at the world in general? The fact that she has had a long pattern of damaging sexual relationships makes it unlikely that a solution can be found in an advice column. There are good therapists to be found no matter your financial situation. It's worth the search.
Secondly, the difference between a healthy GGG dynamic and the kind NOANGEL describes is trust. Even when going beyond your comfort zone for the sake of your partner's pleasure, you should ALWAYS feel like there is trust in place. Trust that you can stop and either try again later or even say "No, this isn't for me." Trust that after the sexual act has been accomplished, there will still be a core relationship in place. Trust that you are seen as a person throughout the sexual act and not just a means for your partner to orgasm. In fact, the things in NOANGEL's letter don't even seem sexual. They seem violent. Being able to distinguish between the two would be a good first step to understanding what GGG is really about.
I really hope NOANGEL finds the help she needs.
57
I once had a girlfriend who wanted me to spend Christmas with her family. I didn't want to and she claimed I was being selfish. But, given what her family was like, I thought she was being abusive.
58
If this girl needs therapy because she's been abused, she doesn't need to be told that she's a screwed-up whack job; she needs to be told that she's a genuinely worth while human who could benefit tremendously from spiritual or psychological guidance.
You people all have to mock her for showing the aftereffects of abuse. That's like making fun of someone who has been burned in a fire and sneering at them for needing a plastic surgeon. Pathetic.
You people all have to mock her for showing the aftereffects of abuse. That's like making fun of someone who has been burned in a fire and sneering at them for needing a plastic surgeon. Pathetic.
59
Maybe she is PMS-ing. That might explain the lack of proof reading. She obviously doesn't care much for sloggers either. Take 2 Midol every 6 hours for 7 days and see how you like us now.
60
Maybe she's PMS-ing. She doesn't seem to care much for sloggers either. Take 2 Midol every 6 hours for 7 days and see how you like us now.
63
I have so many things I'd like to say about this letter, but...I couldn't decipher it well enough to fully understand what the hell this chick is talking about. Just because you know all those big words doesn't mean you need to cram every last one of them in there, sweetheart.
64
if you take your "GGG" motto to include "physical/serious substance abuse" then that is SO another situation. it's a little bit concerning that she's pinning her abusive relationships on your advice to consider sexual requests that you may consider a bit strange. if it feels wrong, don't do it. but don't blame it on someone trying to impart advice to people stuck in a non-threatening sexual conundrum.
this girl needs some therapy besides reading savage love. but don't get all shitty on people who ascribe to being GGG in healthy relationships... that's rude.
this girl needs some therapy besides reading savage love. but don't get all shitty on people who ascribe to being GGG in healthy relationships... that's rude.
65
This letter strikes me as being a problem of a different sort. I may be projecting, though, because I was there once when I was really young. Some people really do think they "have" to do what others expect of them. It has something to do with a paranoid fear of what 'they' will think if you don't conform to X social 'rule'. Often they don't even ask what others actually want; they just guess what others expect of them and then feel obligated to do it. Because they don't understand yet that their own psychology is to blame, then put the blame on society or others for 'making' them act this way, often very angrily. Maybe once she gets the shit kicked out of her a few more times she'll start to realize the problem could be on her end It's sad but sometimes it takes hitting bottom to make someone realize they need to change their approach to life.
66
51: I hope you're right about English not being this woman's first language. If that's the case, fine. If it's not, though, then it means that this is yet another person who has absolutely no grasp of grammar, but believes that badly abusing a thesaurus will make them sound intelligent anyway. I cannot stand those people.
67
Wow, NOANGEL! To help you out, here is a list of some other things that you don't have to do just because a lover wants you to:
-Sell everything you own and give it to his church
-Stomp on puppy dogs
-Kill the President
-Stick needles in your stepson
-Prostitution
-Vote republican
-The hokey-pokey
Well, I guess you could be flexible on the hokey-pokey...
Geesh.
-Sell everything you own and give it to his church
-Stomp on puppy dogs
-Kill the President
-Stick needles in your stepson
-Prostitution
-Vote republican
-The hokey-pokey
Well, I guess you could be flexible on the hokey-pokey...
Geesh.
68
I am surprised NOANGEL's definition of abuse isn't being addressed. "If one does not like it, it's commonly recognized as abuse"
69
My husband always wants me to watch One Tree Hill with him, which is commonly recognized as abuse.
71
You're all acting awfully surprised that anyone would take an unreasonable request and try to manipulate someone into it with GGG lectures, but I can assure you it happens a lot. Dan is absolutely in the right with his GGG philosophy, but there is an unfortunate number of manipulators and abusers out there who use this kind of language that we have to constantly battle against. I from personal experience have had to break up with more than one guy who tried to abuse me with it, and it was an insult to my intelligence. Nothing hyperbolic like the letter, but one ex of mine was being a complete asshole and as I was trying to explain to him as delicately as I could that his asshole behavior towards me was turning me off and I wasn't likely to want sex with him until he stopped so could we please work these issues out, he stormed out to go cheat with the 17 yr old neighbor and then try and tell me that Dan gave him permission because I said I didn't want to sleep with him. This is not Dan's fault, its not the GGG concept at fault, its the fault of retarded selfish men out there who believe Dan is their defender. I think they just never want to own up to their faults and use some half-baked reading of Dan's words to further enable their abusive style. Its the women who've been subjected to that who get soured towards being lectured about GGGness. But setting up strawman arguments against GGG like the letter isn't going to highlight that.
73
Exactly, @72...first time you're a victim, second time you're a volunteer. (I think Gavin de Becker said that. Or someone...I know I read it somewhere.)
74
Wow, JunieGirl that is great. I guess there are no women out there married to abusers who are trying their hardest to scrabble together money over the course of several years so that they can escape with their children. I guess there are no children who are beaten by their parents (don't they respect themselves enough to leave?) who then grow up and marry abusers and accept their situations because they don't know anything better. I guess there are no women who stay with abusers because they fear that if they try to leave, their husbands will murder them. I guess they should just get their shit together because if they take a beating, it is ultimately their fault, not the fault of the person who hits them.
75
Yeah, JunieGirl, that saying may seem "clever" and all, but it's unrealistic, arbitrary, and ultimately blames the victim.
76
i'd bet that she is a crazy fundamentalist who hates dan savage and made up a series of stories to make him sound crappy
78
@41, do you know what it feels like to spurt Dr. McGillicuddy's Mentholmint Schnapps through your nose? I do now, thanks to you.
It was worth it though. That was damned funny. (And hey, my sinuses are clearer!)
It was worth it though. That was damned funny. (And hey, my sinuses are clearer!)
79
She writes the way stupid people think that smart people write. She could also use a few hyphens in there.
81
The writing reminded me of a drunken Miss Manners- she writes in that vaguely bitchy, snotty way as well. Of course, her essay was definitely guilty of "syntactic convulsions" as 54 aptly pointed out.
And 41- Hilarious! Thank you for the chuckle.
And 41- Hilarious! Thank you for the chuckle.
82
#81, Miss Manners is awesome, and her writing style in no way resembles this drivel.
One of my favourite movies is the Gwyneth Paltrow version of Jane Austen's Emma. Once a year, I drag it out of our pile of DVDs, make popcorn, and cry through the movie, snuggling with my husband the whole time. My husband doesn't love this movie at all, though he doesn't mind the snuggling and the popcorn aspect.
Being GGG is like that--doing something you could take or leave for the sake of your partner. It's nothing at all like the above letter-writer describes. She has it entirely wrong.
One of my favourite movies is the Gwyneth Paltrow version of Jane Austen's Emma. Once a year, I drag it out of our pile of DVDs, make popcorn, and cry through the movie, snuggling with my husband the whole time. My husband doesn't love this movie at all, though he doesn't mind the snuggling and the popcorn aspect.
Being GGG is like that--doing something you could take or leave for the sake of your partner. It's nothing at all like the above letter-writer describes. She has it entirely wrong.
83
Who gives a damn about her writing style? Mine is horrible, but somehow manages to get the point across. NOANGEL actually let us get to know a lot about herself that she did't write about. She has a serious anger problem, and it's my guess that it's probably directed at anyone who has the time or low self esteem to listen to it. I can tell when I meet someone if they are not someone that i would be comfortable with. A couple have gotten past me. I would certainly know if they were abusive before I moved in with them. If not , I would press charges and get to the nearest women's shelter. Yes , I know there are some superfreaks out there that are good at hiding their hideous shortcomings, but not everyone I get involved with.Not so with NOANGEL. She keeps making the same mistakes over and over again without learning the lesson . She's either stupid or loves to be miserable so she has something to rant about.I can't beleive Dan gave her the courtesy that he did. I wouldn't have.
84
@71 FTW
What is the *right* amount to give to charity? Can someone name it exactly, in dollars, or percentage of the income? I'd say, if you give, but keep feeling resentful about it -- then you're giving too much! It's personal, and in the bottom line -- it's supposed to be worth it to YOU. The joy you get from the giving is supposed to cover the costs -- and nobody beside you can tell you exactly how far you should go.
It's exactly the same with sex, and many other things. As Dan beautifully said: "Being capable of finding pleasure in giving pleasure — to be able to enjoy, for instance, your foot fetish partner's enjoyment of your feet even if you don't have a foot fetish yourself — means you're a good, decent, indulgent lover, not the victim of sexual abuse."
What is the *right* amount to give to charity? Can someone name it exactly, in dollars, or percentage of the income? I'd say, if you give, but keep feeling resentful about it -- then you're giving too much! It's personal, and in the bottom line -- it's supposed to be worth it to YOU. The joy you get from the giving is supposed to cover the costs -- and nobody beside you can tell you exactly how far you should go.
It's exactly the same with sex, and many other things. As Dan beautifully said: "Being capable of finding pleasure in giving pleasure — to be able to enjoy, for instance, your foot fetish partner's enjoyment of your feet even if you don't have a foot fetish yourself — means you're a good, decent, indulgent lover, not the victim of sexual abuse."
85
kim in portland hit the nail on the head. In order to get over her abusive past, NOANGEL is backlashing in excessive retaliation against forces that don't necessarily warrant this attitude. Kinda like a kid raised in an excessively religious household going apeshit when he gets out of the house. She'll find a happy medium soon, I hope.
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