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News & ArtsThursday, December 17, 2009
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: There Are Enough Flakes and Liars Online Already
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:00 AM
You once wrote that you're glad you've been partnered for so long because you never had to deal with the nightmare of online dating. So I understand why you're so clueless about it. But you were dead wrong when you said it's OK to lie to people on Craigslist to get your rocks off. And your absurd, cavalier exaggeration that only 0.02% of people on CL are for real excusing deliberate deception is even more wrong.I'm 40, gay and kinky. Meeting compatible guys and—dare I hope someday?—a boyfriend is hard. So I use CL. I go in knowing there are liars, scammers and flakes. So I've developed a decent bullshit detector. But I'm pretty trusting and I want to take people at face value so I get fooled from time to time. It's bad enough when real guys say they're interested in me then flake because really they just wanted to beat off to the idea of me. But let me tell you Dan, when a liar cons you into wasting hours and gets you excited for days about maybe meeting someone, only to vanish after you discover his photos were all stolen... IT FUCKING SUCKS. I try not let the disappointment turn me into a cynic. In the mean time I've had plenty of sexy adventures with guys from CL who most definitely are for real, are sincere, and don't deserve to get jerked around any more than I do. I keep putting myself out there and hoping for that one special guy who makes me want to log off forever. Your ill informed advice will make it even harder.
Jerking people around for your selfish sexual pleasure is no more OK online than it is in the real world.
2
IFROCL should stop trying to find love on CL and get out into the real world.
Online dating is an abyss of mentally unstable weirdos, and anyone who's remotely sane should flee. The real world is much better.
Online dating is an abyss of mentally unstable weirdos, and anyone who's remotely sane should flee. The real world is much better.
6
Craiglist is the K-Mart "blue light special" of internet hook-up sites...
"I keep putting myself out there and hoping for that one special guy who makes me want to log off forever"
Tragic... I have a friend with the same internet trolling for sex addiction who says the same thing. It will never happen! You have already ruined yourself...
"I keep putting myself out there and hoping for that one special guy who makes me want to log off forever"
Tragic... I have a friend with the same internet trolling for sex addiction who says the same thing. It will never happen! You have already ruined yourself...
7
I think Dan was actually overestimating the odds of successfully finding the "love of your life" on Craigslist.
9
He makes a fair point that Dan's advice was somewhat reckless. But if he thinks that Dan has any sway one way or the other over the amount of trolling on CL, he's delusional.
10
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, if you want to look for someone online, aren't there much better options than CL? Only 0.02% of people on CL might be real, but on other sites, the number is probably much higher. You might have to pay to access those sites, but that's what you get for the money -- some assurance that a larger percentage of people are also "looking for someone" and not just screwing with you.
11
That flexing bicep reminds me, I need to pick up some Gummy Worms for my Nephew before I fly home for X-Mas.
12
@2
The internet is an integral part of "the real world" now, old fella. Welcome to the new millennium. I know it's scary but you'd better try to get used to it.
The internet is an integral part of "the real world" now, old fella. Welcome to the new millennium. I know it's scary but you'd better try to get used to it.
13
Gotta go with IFROC on this one. Dan's right about the vanishingly small number of legitimate voices in Craigslist (at least as far as "Casual encounters" is concerned.
That being said, it *is* disheartening for those who seek there.
That being said, it *is* disheartening for those who seek there.
16
Pay sites are better to meet people, because most people who actually pay to use them are serious. It weeds out most of the flakes.
17
You can't necessarily expect a long-term thing to happen from an internet hookup, but it does.
We met to just fuck and now it's been 6 years. What can a man do?
We met to just fuck and now it's been 6 years. What can a man do?
22
@2, 12 is right, CL is part of the 'real' world.
@ everyone else. I found my love on CL, four years and counting. Odds are against you, but it can and does happen.
@ everyone else. I found my love on CL, four years and counting. Odds are against you, but it can and does happen.
23
Sounds like it's time for a little poll"
CraigsList for personal hook-ups?:
1. Tried it, found mostly flakes/scammers/creeps.
2. Tried it, found the love of my life.
3. Tried it, with mixed results.
4. Never tried it.
5. I'm "Will in Seattle", and therefore have idea what you're talking about.
CraigsList for personal hook-ups?:
1. Tried it, found mostly flakes/scammers/creeps.
2. Tried it, found the love of my life.
3. Tried it, with mixed results.
4. Never tried it.
5. I'm "Will in Seattle", and therefore have idea what you're talking about.
25
Never tried it, never will but it is for flakes, scammers and creeps. Online dating is no better than picking up a prostitute on Aurora. I would be much more inclined to visit a bathhouse and think nothing of it then troll for some fake scammer online.
28
Trying to find the love of your life on Craigslist is like trying to find designer jeans at Wal-Mart.
29
Oh well there's the problem plain as day, he's 40 and wants: "looking for hot, fit, cute bottom" none of which he is. So to recap the idiocy of Gay men and CL postings; I'm not really looking for a BF I'm looking for something I'm not! I'm (false age) looking for 18-30 ONLY. Is it any wonder it's a disappointment? Oh but what he's turned on by is "hot, fit, cute bottom". Stop whining when those guys don't want 40+ skinny and cigar smoker!
31
@21: And he can write a coherent, well-punctuated sentence. This guy has way more going for him than 99% of the other posters at CL. Surely there has to be a Mr. Right out there for him. Maybe he'll find him through Slog...?
32
Craiglist should be a last ditch dating site, or for I-wanna-get-laid-RIGHT-EFFING-NOW types. Exhaust all other online dating/hookup options before attempting CL.
(Besides, most other sights have at least some kind of screening process too.)
(Besides, most other sights have at least some kind of screening process too.)
33
@32...if by "screening" you mean "they process your credit card," then yes, they do. But I tried many different sites before I met my BF on Match 2 1/2 years ago, and the only one that "screens" is the one everyone here hates: eHarmony, the one that is Christian-based and doesn't allow same-sex interaction.
All the rest that I tried basically couldn't care less who you are or what you're like, although as other posters mentioned, if someone is paying to join they are a little less likely to be a flake or a scammer, though it's no guarantee.
I'm lucky--after a few years on the dating sites, I was on my next-to-last day of membership when my BF contacted me. I had decided it wasn't working for me, so I wasn't going to re-up. It was his 2nd week on Match, and I was the first girl he dated from the site. His side of the story, "overnight" success--mine, a long slog through some nice and not-so-nice characters before I met my "match".
All the rest that I tried basically couldn't care less who you are or what you're like, although as other posters mentioned, if someone is paying to join they are a little less likely to be a flake or a scammer, though it's no guarantee.
I'm lucky--after a few years on the dating sites, I was on my next-to-last day of membership when my BF contacted me. I had decided it wasn't working for me, so I wasn't going to re-up. It was his 2nd week on Match, and I was the first girl he dated from the site. His side of the story, "overnight" success--mine, a long slog through some nice and not-so-nice characters before I met my "match".
35
@33,
I'm pretty sure the pay sites at least remove nasty members. I've heard horror stories about OKCupid (which is also free but is at least run by humans), and, after enough complaints/forwarded evidence, abusive people do get kicked off.
Craig's List's flagging system gets rid of stuff that's obviously illegal and/or a scam, but they're not going to do jack about someone acting stalkery or long-term intentionally flakey.
I'm pretty sure the pay sites at least remove nasty members. I've heard horror stories about OKCupid (which is also free but is at least run by humans), and, after enough complaints/forwarded evidence, abusive people do get kicked off.
Craig's List's flagging system gets rid of stuff that's obviously illegal and/or a scam, but they're not going to do jack about someone acting stalkery or long-term intentionally flakey.
36
@33,
And my sister had almost exactly the same experience: years of frustration for her and her husband met her through his first online match.
And my sister had almost exactly the same experience: years of frustration for her and her husband met her through his first online match.
37
This might come as a shock, IFROCL, but people who use Craig's List are just like you. They exaggerate, flake out and change their minds. Oh, I see, you've never done that....
38
1) wow, hes hot. he comes across as decent and fun, too. and he has problems with dating? makes me think hes doing something wrong... maybe the wrong site? (i dont use cragislist, so i dont know)
2) i also think hes taking online dating way too seriously. online dating can lead to fun encounters or even more, but there are tons of fakers, assholes and psychos out there too, and we all know that. if online dating makes you bitter, you should take a break from it.
2) i also think hes taking online dating way too seriously. online dating can lead to fun encounters or even more, but there are tons of fakers, assholes and psychos out there too, and we all know that. if online dating makes you bitter, you should take a break from it.
39
Here's the thing about meeting people online: they're addicted to shopping around, which is why they're online in the first place. Its a good place to go for getting laid but not meeting people who are serious and emotionally available. Not saying they aren't there, but they're diluted amongst the insecure types who have motives that are diametrically opposed to actually finding a partner.
Also, whats with all the attitude toward "flakes"? No one's obligated to like you. If you were in contact for a while and they decided they weren't that into you, that does not make them a flake who owed you sex just because they talked to you.
Also, whats with all the attitude toward "flakes"? No one's obligated to like you. If you were in contact for a while and they decided they weren't that into you, that does not make them a flake who owed you sex just because they talked to you.
40
I've gotten laid using craigslist's M4M section plenty of times, without any truly negative experiences. Just keep reasonable expectations, i.e. don't expect Adonis to show up at your door. Keep your bullshit meter well-calibrated with a low threshold. Use correct grammar and spelling as a psychopath-filter (tweakers don't follow the MLA style guide). Require pics (plural) and scrutinize them. Exchange as many emails as it takes until you're satisfied that the other guy is a real person. Do it sober. Always have a Plan B. Never hesitate to back out if your spidey sense says "creepy", and don't regret it when you do.
Even if the sex is great and he cooks you breakfast in the morning, don't be surprised or disappointed if he doesn't respond to your emails ever again. And forget about ever finding the "love of your life".
Even if the sex is great and he cooks you breakfast in the morning, don't be surprised or disappointed if he doesn't respond to your emails ever again. And forget about ever finding the "love of your life".
41
@39...it's the BS where they contact you and they're enthusiastic and inviting and then...they disappear. Grow a pair and say "I changed my mind" or "I met someone else" or "Your last e-mail creeped me out". Anything...it's just a pain in the ass to invest time and energy and then have a person just walk away. It's behavior that would be rude face-to-face, so why not call it rude when it happens online?
@36...I knew I'd have a hard time finding a match. I'm not a drinker, so it cuts down on a lot of the "normal" socializing spots, but I thought I'd have somewhat better luck than I did over the course of the years. What #39 said is true...there is a false sense of "I can get whatever I want" that is part of the online dating experience. People who would normally give you a chance in person will pass you by online because they think it's like Amazon..you can find the "perfect" item if you just wade through all of the options.
I am very glad it worked out for your sister. I wouldn't tell people to avoid online dating, but I do tend to forewarn them (mostly women) that if you're looking for more than just sex it's going to take a while to find someone to connect with.
(Not that there's anything wrong with "just" sex, but I wanted a boyfriend...I already had contenders for fuck buddies, but I wanted more than that. THAT'S what took so long.)
@36...I knew I'd have a hard time finding a match. I'm not a drinker, so it cuts down on a lot of the "normal" socializing spots, but I thought I'd have somewhat better luck than I did over the course of the years. What #39 said is true...there is a false sense of "I can get whatever I want" that is part of the online dating experience. People who would normally give you a chance in person will pass you by online because they think it's like Amazon..you can find the "perfect" item if you just wade through all of the options.
I am very glad it worked out for your sister. I wouldn't tell people to avoid online dating, but I do tend to forewarn them (mostly women) that if you're looking for more than just sex it's going to take a while to find someone to connect with.
(Not that there's anything wrong with "just" sex, but I wanted a boyfriend...I already had contenders for fuck buddies, but I wanted more than that. THAT'S what took so long.)
42
i'm a single woman who, if i go too long between relationships and want to get laid, have defintiely used cl for quick and easy, and always protected, sex. it's better than a bar in that i can get alot of info about him without actually being plied with drinks in a smoky scene and walk away with a few short and honest words. it's hot :) and only once have i had a door opened by a complete liar who had given me someone else's picture, at which point i laughed, said no thanks, and walked away. but i digress...
i agree that it's not cool to misguide people online, but pay sites (some of which i've had worse experiences with because they're using it like cl) or no, it's gonna happen anyway.. gotta have a thicker skin...
as for cl relationships... one quickie turned into a year long relationship.. but really, if the sex hadn't been amazing, it wouldn't have gotten past 4 dates.. lol..
truly, i just try to stay open and receptive to quality wherever i am....
i agree that it's not cool to misguide people online, but pay sites (some of which i've had worse experiences with because they're using it like cl) or no, it's gonna happen anyway.. gotta have a thicker skin...
as for cl relationships... one quickie turned into a year long relationship.. but really, if the sex hadn't been amazing, it wouldn't have gotten past 4 dates.. lol..
truly, i just try to stay open and receptive to quality wherever i am....
43
Met my girlfriend on CL. We've been dating for almost three years now. I'm just sayin.'
Yes, there were also a ton of flakes and weirdos before I met her, but at least they gave me an excuse to go out drinking each night (I did all my meetings in bars). And led to stories that entertained many of my friends.
To the OP: my advice is to do a quick sanity check, exchange photos, then meet in person as quickly as possible. You shouldn't be wasting hours on anyone until you've met up to ensure 1) that the person is legit and 2) that there's some physical chemistry. I don't think I sent anyone more than three emails before suggesting a meeting spot.
Yes, there were also a ton of flakes and weirdos before I met her, but at least they gave me an excuse to go out drinking each night (I did all my meetings in bars). And led to stories that entertained many of my friends.
To the OP: my advice is to do a quick sanity check, exchange photos, then meet in person as quickly as possible. You shouldn't be wasting hours on anyone until you've met up to ensure 1) that the person is legit and 2) that there's some physical chemistry. I don't think I sent anyone more than three emails before suggesting a meeting spot.
44
it's pretty hard to meet people if you move to a new city and you don't already have friends there. you could hang around bars, try to join some clubs, meet people at work, and maybe, after some time, you can find someone to date. you can also go online and start talking to people almost instantly. in such a mobile and anonymous society, doesn't internet dating make a lot of sense?
45
IFROCL is right Dan.
For some of us, in today's society, it works a lot better to find people online, get to know them, build a rapor, and then meet them. Not that I'm judging you Dan, but it seems like since you're not really that tech-savvy past what you have to do for your line of work, maybe you scoff somewhat at the idea of finding a true love online.
Guys like IFROCL (and also myself by extension) think it's a wonderful idea, and we hold out hope that decent people still exist aside from the frauds.
For some of us, in today's society, it works a lot better to find people online, get to know them, build a rapor, and then meet them. Not that I'm judging you Dan, but it seems like since you're not really that tech-savvy past what you have to do for your line of work, maybe you scoff somewhat at the idea of finding a true love online.
Guys like IFROCL (and also myself by extension) think it's a wonderful idea, and we hold out hope that decent people still exist aside from the frauds.
46
My opinion has always been that, if you're using a site like Manhunt, you're dealing with the select group of people who are willing to pay to use Manhunt. With Craigslist, you're reaching something close to the general population. Everyone browses it at least once in a while. I've had some very hot hookups and made good friends through it, better than what I got paying for Manhunt. I think it's useless to troll through the ads, but if you put up a well-written ad and are specific about what you're looking for, you'll get at least a few good responses. It's more akin to a consignment shop than shopping at Walmart IMO.
47
I love CL, and have met several really cool people there. I basically agree with the letter-writer that being an asshole to real people online is not any better than being an asshole to real people anywhere else. Though I do think there are social norms on CL and other online dating venues that are a little bit different than, say, a bar. And that's ok.
48
I agree with #40 and #43.
I met my boyfriend (two years and going strong) through Manhunt and I generally had good experiences using on-line dating and hook-up sites when I was single. But it's all in your attitude and approach to it. Finding a compatible partner is a numbers game, you need to have a look at lots and lots of people. Like #43, I always tried to meet up with people sooner rather than later, and I made a point of casting a really wide net - anyone who seemed reasonably attractive and wasn't a moron got invited to grab a cup of coffee or a beer. Most of those meetings went no where, but I had some dates and I had some one night stands, and I eventually met a totally sweet, sexy guy who I fell in love with. But it's all about numbers - in the six months before I met the boyfriend I must have chatted or messaged with hundreds of guys on-line. I met at least 40 of them in person, I had sex with about a dozen of those, I dated five of them briefly (2-3 weeks), and I did find what I was looking for.
I met my boyfriend (two years and going strong) through Manhunt and I generally had good experiences using on-line dating and hook-up sites when I was single. But it's all in your attitude and approach to it. Finding a compatible partner is a numbers game, you need to have a look at lots and lots of people. Like #43, I always tried to meet up with people sooner rather than later, and I made a point of casting a really wide net - anyone who seemed reasonably attractive and wasn't a moron got invited to grab a cup of coffee or a beer. Most of those meetings went no where, but I had some dates and I had some one night stands, and I eventually met a totally sweet, sexy guy who I fell in love with. But it's all about numbers - in the six months before I met the boyfriend I must have chatted or messaged with hundreds of guys on-line. I met at least 40 of them in person, I had sex with about a dozen of those, I dated five of them briefly (2-3 weeks), and I did find what I was looking for.
49
This guy is having trouble finding compatible mates? He's seems pretty awesome from the ad. I'm straight and even I want to let him fuck me
51
Well, I have the most unpleasant experiences on opn-line dating, back in 1997 when I first connected to the web, I thought that, finally, my isolation will end, i will meet interesting people and even the love of my life....None of the above ever happened, on the contray, I saw another side of humanity : lies, shallowness, fakes etc...but i was determined if not find the love of my life , a friend "with benefits", alas none of that happened. The turning point was that I traveled to London from Athens to meet that guy ( after almost a year of chatting, exchanging emails and photos), who never showed-up. At the end, it did not surprised me since none of my on-line contacts actually met ( although pictures, emails etc...were exchanged). I never lied on my handle as I know it would have backfired one.
I think that online sites are bullshit, and Dan was right you can tell every damned lies you might think of. For one true relationship and 5 hook-ups,,, how many deception and tears are shedded?????????
I think that online sites are bullshit, and Dan was right you can tell every damned lies you might think of. For one true relationship and 5 hook-ups,,, how many deception and tears are shedded?????????
53
@51 - I don't want to be mean, but I think the problem was your approach not the online dating sites. It sounds like you were trying to literally "date online" as opposed to using the internet to find people to date in the real world.
I had great success using online sites, but I never bothered with people who live more than an hour or so from my house because those people are just not realistic prospects for dating in the real world. And anyone who seemed interesting after a couple of messages was invited to meet for a beer or a coffee - that's a great fake/flake filter, someone who won't agree to meet you for a cup of coffee is not serious, so you move on.
I had great success using online sites, but I never bothered with people who live more than an hour or so from my house because those people are just not realistic prospects for dating in the real world. And anyone who seemed interesting after a couple of messages was invited to meet for a beer or a coffee - that's a great fake/flake filter, someone who won't agree to meet you for a cup of coffee is not serious, so you move on.
55
I've seen a lot of ads for a site called FindFred.com in the gay bars, which is kind of funny to me. My brother-in-law is a sterotypical gay-in-denial type, and his name is Fred.
57
@55
LOL! It's like the site was made for him - that must have been hilarious for you to discover. Do you think your sister has clue about her husband? I'm always amazed by these *clearly* closeted gay guys who end up dating girls seriously or marrying them. I mean, are these girls out of their minds?? They never seem to have a clue. I just don't get it.
LOL! It's like the site was made for him - that must have been hilarious for you to discover. Do you think your sister has clue about her husband? I'm always amazed by these *clearly* closeted gay guys who end up dating girls seriously or marrying them. I mean, are these girls out of their minds?? They never seem to have a clue. I just don't get it.
58
@23 I for one have never used a dating site, or CL for meeting people. At times I've been tempted to try it an meet someone new/different, but there's something about it that REALLY squicks me out. Maybe it is the capacity for everyone to lie their asses off...? Clearly a bullshit detector is needed, just don't think I'm there yet.
59
@53: Yes, I think you summed up the issue beautifully. If I may try my hand at being even more succinct:
You don't "date" online. You meet people online, and ask the decent ones out on dates.
You don't "date" online. You meet people online, and ask the decent ones out on dates.
60
there are few more enjoyable ways to spend an evening than making a hyperbolically fake CL ad and seeing who will respond to it. I recently received 170 responses to an ad looking for someone to take an IKEA bookshelf and a sexy evening. you'd be surprised how many people were primarily interested in the bookshelf...
61
i meant like take them together. like the ad specified you HAD to take the bookshelf to be eligible for loving
63
sallybo's comment reminds me of something. my sister used have a contest with friends in which they would try to write stranger personal ads that generated the fewest responses. in one ad they claimed to be a heterosexual couple looking for a bi person to have sex with them both and tell them who was hotter. they got LOTS of responses to that one, which they didn't expect. (they learned that any female looking for sex of any kind got answers, not a surprise in retrospect.) the final winner was an ad that said something like: man with giantess girlfriend looking for similar couple to have chicken fights.
65
Maybe it's a gay convention that I don't know about, but "I'm For Real"'s profile seems a little bitter and grouchy. Like he's expecting to be jerked around. If I were looking for a boyfriend I might be turned off. I think he's kind of disqualifying himself by his prose, which is a pity, since he's crazy handsome.
I'm on OkCupid, and I'm discovering a few things.
1. As a young woman you get a ridiculous number of responses.
2. A good percentage of OkCupid users are actually nice, legitimate guys who want to make friends and go on dates.
3. My college has spoiled me. The people from school that I think of as "normal" are much more intelligent than the average dude -- even the average graduate student dude.
4. My college has spoiled me. Athletic guys are really fucking rare.
5. It's easy to make friends. Intimacy is damn near impossible. I don't know how anybody has the stomach for "a fling" or "casual sex." Such a liberating idea in theory, but I can't so much as brush the hand of a guy I don't know well. I guess I worry that he might not be the right person.
I'm on OkCupid, and I'm discovering a few things.
1. As a young woman you get a ridiculous number of responses.
2. A good percentage of OkCupid users are actually nice, legitimate guys who want to make friends and go on dates.
3. My college has spoiled me. The people from school that I think of as "normal" are much more intelligent than the average dude -- even the average graduate student dude.
4. My college has spoiled me. Athletic guys are really fucking rare.
5. It's easy to make friends. Intimacy is damn near impossible. I don't know how anybody has the stomach for "a fling" or "casual sex." Such a liberating idea in theory, but I can't so much as brush the hand of a guy I don't know well. I guess I worry that he might not be the right person.
66
the only difference between IKEA bookshelves and regular ones are their prevalence on craigslist. like seriously, every bookshelf you see in free stuff/furniture is IKEA. the underlying joke was the ad peddled craigslist's two most common wares : used crappy college kid furniture and casual sex
although to be fair almost all my furniture came from craigslist. my sex remains contained within a committed relationship, but no hate for folks that pick it up on CL. get your rocks off, get your cheap furniture on
although to be fair almost all my furniture came from craigslist. my sex remains contained within a committed relationship, but no hate for folks that pick it up on CL. get your rocks off, get your cheap furniture on
67
@2 I met my girlfriend on over a year and a half on a dating site. Online dating is great because it allows us to avoid the risk of accidentally hooking up with assholes like yourself.
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