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News & ArtsTuesday, December 15, 2009
City Tonight on Capitol Hill: Tell the City Which Streetcar You Want
Posted by Eli Sanders on Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 4:17 PM
- Ananda La Vita
Should it be the 12th Avenue Couplet, shown at left?
It could help transit-starved 12th Avenue and is the darling of Capitol Hill leaders at the moment.
Or would you rather have the Boren-Minor alignment, beloved by First Hill and its hospitals?
Or Perhaps the Boylston-Seneca Alignment, which doesn't fully please First Hill but gets most of the way there?
Or, maybe the Two-way Broadway Alignment, which doesn't seem to be at the top of anyone's list at the moment?
Ogle away—these maps by The Stranger's Ananda La Vita are, I believe, the first time that anyone's shown the four possible routes in an easy-to-read way.
Then, when you're done, show up at the first of three public meetings to discuss the new streetcar line:
Tonight
6:00 — 8:00 pm
Seattle Central Community College
101 Broadway Seattle, WA 98122
1
Which one would have the most taco trucks and which would just have lots of irate SUV owners blocking the route?
2
How about an alignment that saves 3 minutes on the Boren hypotenuse (between Yesler and Broadway), instead of taking a slow-ass detour just to bolster whatever development plan the city has in mind for Yesler Terrace?
4
i'm pretty sure the broadway alignment goes up to 14th and jackson. but the plans have changed so many times it's hard to keep track. either way, you guys might wanna check that out
5
I like the idea of a Broadway alignment but wonder how that would impact speed given how trafficked it is. 12th seems less busy, has less active crossings, and could, maybe result in a faster trip.
@2, serving a few thousand people who depend on traffic seems worth the detour over a strip of land boarded by some business and a park/school.
@2, serving a few thousand people who depend on traffic seems worth the detour over a strip of land boarded by some business and a park/school.
7
the best route is the one that serves the most hospitals and schools and keeps off of broadway as much as possible
9
Hey I gotta an idea. How bout we vote for the option that removes rails from roads and actually helps congestion instead of a train that waits for red lights, that is only meant to make seattle look progressive and futuristic. Give me a break. This light rail plan is a useless as the monorail. Where are the subway ideas or elevated(the whole line) rail? By the time they have this done anyway, everyone will have left the hill(or what is left of it). So sad so sad.
10
@9 Um, this is not a light rail plan. We have those. Streetcars are not long range means of transportation but serve to take people from those to their final destinations and to serve people making short trips along the route.
11
I know this is meant to connect two light rail stations through First Hill, but bummer for dying north Broadway--the earlier versions had some prospect of extending farther up Broadway.
12
yes let's spend $120 million in capital costs to provide boxes that move people from point A to point B that are called "streetcars" instead of the boxes we have now, which are called "busses."
Because connecting two light rail stations with ANOTHER means of transit is so productive. I mean, you wouldn't want to connect neighborhoods that don't have light rail, to light rail; it's better to build more connections between lgiht rail stations.
This way, you can take the light rail from Capitol Hill to King Street (cost: $1.5 billion) and then for a change of pace ( a sloooooowwwwweeeerrrrr pace) you can take the streetcar back from King Street to Capitol Hill.
Seriously, has anyone bothered to find out if this streetcar is faster than a bus?
Faster than walking?
Faster than light rail?
Nope, we don't care we're progressives and that means spend all the money in any way at all esp. if it comes to MY neighborhood.
Delridge, go fuck yourself. You're left behind with your smelly old busses. We get light rail AND streetcars, hahahahaha! Same to you, Lake City/Georgetown/Ballard/West Seattle/View Ridge you get to stay on smelly old busses hahahahahaha we are going to suck up all the money so we will be cutting your busses even more hahahahahaha you nonhip losers!
Because connecting two light rail stations with ANOTHER means of transit is so productive. I mean, you wouldn't want to connect neighborhoods that don't have light rail, to light rail; it's better to build more connections between lgiht rail stations.
This way, you can take the light rail from Capitol Hill to King Street (cost: $1.5 billion) and then for a change of pace ( a sloooooowwwwweeeerrrrr pace) you can take the streetcar back from King Street to Capitol Hill.
Seriously, has anyone bothered to find out if this streetcar is faster than a bus?
Faster than walking?
Faster than light rail?
Nope, we don't care we're progressives and that means spend all the money in any way at all esp. if it comes to MY neighborhood.
Delridge, go fuck yourself. You're left behind with your smelly old busses. We get light rail AND streetcars, hahahahaha! Same to you, Lake City/Georgetown/Ballard/West Seattle/View Ridge you get to stay on smelly old busses hahahahahaha we are going to suck up all the money so we will be cutting your busses even more hahahahahaha you nonhip losers!
13
@12, the street car does connect neighborhoods without light rail to light rail: Yesler Terrace, the CD, and First Hill. And it was part of the original light rail plan, once they killed the First Hill station. Argue against the next streetcar line (downtown, probably along First) using this logic if you like, but it doesn't apply here.
15
Let's all vote for the one that will bring Capitol Hill much-needed business from all the junkies riding transit on first hill.. oh wait, that's all of them.
Seriously, fuck ANY bus that goes up near all the hospitals, rehab centers, methadone clinics and needle exchanges up on First Hill. The 3/4 bus line contains the lowest common denominator of human life in Seattle and its only saving grace is that it runs roughly E-W instead of N-S, so all the bums can go from one scary crackhead haunt (pioneer square) to another (CD).
Seriously, fuck ANY bus that goes up near all the hospitals, rehab centers, methadone clinics and needle exchanges up on First Hill. The 3/4 bus line contains the lowest common denominator of human life in Seattle and its only saving grace is that it runs roughly E-W instead of N-S, so all the bums can go from one scary crackhead haunt (pioneer square) to another (CD).
16
@13, unfortunately, none of these options serve the CD -- 12th Avenue is only the western edge of the CD, an area that extends another sixteen blocks to the east. Those of us in the CD will likely still have to bus.
17
I believe Seattle Transit Blog had maps first, albeit without directional arrows along the colored lines.
18
these are really wonderful maps that are better than anyone else has produced up until now. thanks so much stranger.
19
yep, STB had it all first, and has been providing the widest ranging opinions and best coverage fromthe beginning. Why doesn't the Stranger just link to/aggregate it like it does everything else, instead of trying to half-ass its incorrect coverage?
21
@5: We don't actually KNOW what's going to become of Yesler Terrace, but you may have missed my point.
Broadway and Yesler is only a 2-minute walk from either Boren & Yesler OR Boren & Broadway. But since streetcars are lousy at making 90° turns (this detour adds 2), and since the lights at either end of the detour are biased toward Boren and against the streetcar route, it could add 3-5 minutes to the journey.
So your choice is to make New Yesler Terrace/Whatever residents walk 2 minutes but be rewarded with a speedier ride from there on, or to add 3 minutes to the journey of EVERY SINGLE STREETCAR USER, including those who will NEVER in their entire lives get on or off there.
This is a choice that Seattle ALWAYS makes incorrectly. A key Metro analogue is the 75 (Ballard to Northgate), which makes a 15-minute detour through the heart of North Seattle Community College campus. NSCC accounts for a huge number of transit riders, who need to be served somehow, but it doesn't make any sense for everyone else who needs that bus to lose 15 minutes of their life on a regular basis by going in literal circles (the bus returns to Northgate Way about 1 minute from where it veers off). Wouldn't it make more sense for the college kids to just walk five minutes north and be rewarded with a much faster and more reliable bus?
Broadway and Yesler is only a 2-minute walk from either Boren & Yesler OR Boren & Broadway. But since streetcars are lousy at making 90° turns (this detour adds 2), and since the lights at either end of the detour are biased toward Boren and against the streetcar route, it could add 3-5 minutes to the journey.
So your choice is to make New Yesler Terrace/Whatever residents walk 2 minutes but be rewarded with a speedier ride from there on, or to add 3 minutes to the journey of EVERY SINGLE STREETCAR USER, including those who will NEVER in their entire lives get on or off there.
This is a choice that Seattle ALWAYS makes incorrectly. A key Metro analogue is the 75 (Ballard to Northgate), which makes a 15-minute detour through the heart of North Seattle Community College campus. NSCC accounts for a huge number of transit riders, who need to be served somehow, but it doesn't make any sense for everyone else who needs that bus to lose 15 minutes of their life on a regular basis by going in literal circles (the bus returns to Northgate Way about 1 minute from where it veers off). Wouldn't it make more sense for the college kids to just walk five minutes north and be rewarded with a much faster and more reliable bus?
22
@20, an extension to Aloha St. is a possibility for the future, but not in the current plans.
@12, the streetcar isn't designed to compete with light rail in terms of speed. At one point, First Hill was supposed to receive a light rail station. Those plans have changed. Instead, FH will be connected by streetcar to the Capitol Hill and International District light rail stations. A streetcar line, by virtue of its permanence (compared a bus line) and quality of service, spurs transit-oriented development and better serves the major employers of FH, esp. the medical centers.
@12, the streetcar isn't designed to compete with light rail in terms of speed. At one point, First Hill was supposed to receive a light rail station. Those plans have changed. Instead, FH will be connected by streetcar to the Capitol Hill and International District light rail stations. A streetcar line, by virtue of its permanence (compared a bus line) and quality of service, spurs transit-oriented development and better serves the major employers of FH, esp. the medical centers.
23
Those people who keep saying, "Who needs streetcars when the buses are perfectly fine?"--90% of them wouldn't be caught dead in a bus themselves anyway.
That said, here's hoping that Sound Transit and SDOT don't repeat with the First Hill streetcar the half-assed job SDOT did with the SLU streetcar under the leadership of Greg Nickels and the City Council. When you let Seattle politics do things the easy way, you end up with something like the SLU streetcar that has 15-minutes frequencies (last I checked) and positively crawls its way through its route.
I realize that with streetcars you're never going to get light rail-quality levels of service, nor should you. But I like what Mike McGinn talked about during the campaign--that the key here is the rights of way. What if you created something like a transit-only lane (buses+streetcar) for long stretches? Sure, certain people would scream bloody murder, but if nobody's screaming bloody murder, that's a sign you're not doing anything worthwhile to begin with.
That said, here's hoping that Sound Transit and SDOT don't repeat with the First Hill streetcar the half-assed job SDOT did with the SLU streetcar under the leadership of Greg Nickels and the City Council. When you let Seattle politics do things the easy way, you end up with something like the SLU streetcar that has 15-minutes frequencies (last I checked) and positively crawls its way through its route.
I realize that with streetcars you're never going to get light rail-quality levels of service, nor should you. But I like what Mike McGinn talked about during the campaign--that the key here is the rights of way. What if you created something like a transit-only lane (buses+streetcar) for long stretches? Sure, certain people would scream bloody murder, but if nobody's screaming bloody murder, that's a sign you're not doing anything worthwhile to begin with.
24
Eric F @11:
Great comment, even if I wouldn't exactly describe north Broadway as dying.
I realize that the First Hill streetcar's whole reason-for-being is as a make-good for the lack of a First Hill light rail station, but if we were building this from scratch for its own sake, to me, there's no doubt that you would go farther up the Capitol Hill corridor, possibly to Eastlake.
Still, I suppose you can always extend the route at a later date. The thing I feel we should be discussing much more is what I just mentioned in my previous post: what kinds of rights-of-way can be established? How fast and frequent can the service be?
I know this is meant to connect two light rail stations through First Hill, but bummer for dying north Broadway--the earlier versions had some prospect of extending farther up Broadway.
Great comment, even if I wouldn't exactly describe north Broadway as dying.
I realize that the First Hill streetcar's whole reason-for-being is as a make-good for the lack of a First Hill light rail station, but if we were building this from scratch for its own sake, to me, there's no doubt that you would go farther up the Capitol Hill corridor, possibly to Eastlake.
Still, I suppose you can always extend the route at a later date. The thing I feel we should be discussing much more is what I just mentioned in my previous post: what kinds of rights-of-way can be established? How fast and frequent can the service be?
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