Slog
News & ArtsSunday, December 13, 2009
Two-Block Radius / Transportation All Streetcar Routes Lead to 11th Avenue
Posted by Unpaid Intern on Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 1:10 PM
- Bejan in StrangrFlickr
Last week we linked to a map of possible First Hill streetcar alignments.
Looks like that map has to be slightly amended, as all possible routes now include a segment along 11th Avenue that runs past coffee shops and gay (and gay-ish) bars and Value Village—and, holy shit, right past The Stranger's front door—and then along the eastern edge of Cal Anderson park, all in order to connect up with the site of the incoming light rail stop at Denny and Broadway.
SDOT project contact Ethan Melone confirmed over e-mail today:
The 11th Avenue segment would be:* Northbound from Madison to Denny with the Two-Way Broadway option;
* Northbound from Union to Denny with the Boren option;
* Southbound from Denny to Union with the Broadway-12th couplet option.
Essentially, all the same routes are on the table—just slightly amended to run down 11th Avenue in one direction for part of the Capitol Hill stretch. So, you know, you can ride the BUTT directly to Purr—or maybe, depending on how the naming game shakes out, the CLIT directly to Wild Rose.
Love it? Hate it? Got a better idea? There are three open houses for public input on the First Hill Streetcar alignment coming right up:
Tuesday, December 15, 2009
6:00 — 8:00 pm
Seattle Central Community College
101 Broadway Seattle, WA 98122Wednesday, December 16, 2009
6:00 pm — 8:00 pm
Yesler Community Center
917 E. Yesler Way Seattle, WA 98122Thursday, December 17, 2009
6:00 pm — 8:00 pm
Union Station
401 S. Jackson Seattle, WA 98104
Posted by news intern Sarah Lloyd.
2
Please explain why a streetcar on rails moves people from point A to point B better than a set of busses that have doors in several places (or better yet, half open air, like trolleys of yore) and that can be painted with the wordS "PRETEND THIS IS A TRAIN!" and which can go right in the street, right now, we don't need $50 million a mile....and which don't create rails for bikes to stumble over....
if it's the electricity, use trolley busses.....
is this an example of showing devotion to the planet thru a cult of worshipping steel rails and steel wheels, is that why rubber wheels are no good?
"oh it's a fixed route, you see, investors need the security of knowing that the route will stay there before creating density" hahahahahahahahaha like we can ever even change a bus route hahahahahahaha
if it's the electricity, use trolley busses.....
is this an example of showing devotion to the planet thru a cult of worshipping steel rails and steel wheels, is that why rubber wheels are no good?
"oh it's a fixed route, you see, investors need the security of knowing that the route will stay there before creating density" hahahahahahahahaha like we can ever even change a bus route hahahahahahaha
3
12th would really be better, people can walk a little bit its alright..wider street, the future is on that street for certain, it'll be much faster, safer..dunno why CH has to have all the best things all the time.running it up/down 12th with a two block walk to the light rail station is acceptable, unless you dislike walking 2-3 blocks then why are you living in CH?
Run the SB portion through First HIll if need be...I know they got screwed on the LR but the street system there is not really lending itself to a streetcar either--if built the wya the first Hillers are demanding, it'll be slower than the SLUT, and be stuck in traffic for 5 hours a day.
Run the SB portion through First HIll if need be...I know they got screwed on the LR but the street system there is not really lending itself to a streetcar either--if built the wya the first Hillers are demanding, it'll be slower than the SLUT, and be stuck in traffic for 5 hours a day.
4
Is there any sort of unified King County transit map? I'd like to see one with the King County Metro buses, Sound Transit, Central Link, and proposed systems like the Link expansion and this one.
6
Millions of dollars wasted while Gregoire cuts school lunches, health insurance for low income people and special education programs.
Millions of dollars wasted while Gregoire cuts school lunches, health insurance for low income people and special education programs.
10
Shouldn't it run down major thoroughfares where people who want to ride it will, you know, see it?
11
No opinion on 11th vs. 12th as a base concept, but if I'm reading this post correctly, they're actually adding ADDITIONAL left-turn/right-turn couplets to EACH of the original options (i.e. a northbound Broadway->Madison->11th->Denny->Broadway, or a southbound Broadway->Denny->11th->Union->12th->etc.). That's any extra FOUR tight-90°-corners added to each potential route.
What gives, Seattle transit planners? Lots of superfluous tight turns are good for NO type of public transit -- not buses (especially not electric ones), not streetcars, not off-street rail (light or heavy). Metro is the guiltiest party, with zig-zags galore and curlicue routing that makes the 75, 16, 25, 8, and anything that takes the 1st-Broad-3rd triangle in Belltown or the Pike-Bellevue-Pine detour up the Hill so comically and tragically slow.
TRANSIT 101: 2 extra blocks walk are a TINY price to pay for transit that comes as frequently and moves as quickly as fucking possible.
What gives, Seattle transit planners? Lots of superfluous tight turns are good for NO type of public transit -- not buses (especially not electric ones), not streetcars, not off-street rail (light or heavy). Metro is the guiltiest party, with zig-zags galore and curlicue routing that makes the 75, 16, 25, 8, and anything that takes the 1st-Broad-3rd triangle in Belltown or the Pike-Bellevue-Pine detour up the Hill so comically and tragically slow.
TRANSIT 101: 2 extra blocks walk are a TINY price to pay for transit that comes as frequently and moves as quickly as fucking possible.
12
Oh, and @2:
Ever waited five minutes while a Metro driver fiddled with wheelchair lifts and straps; then another five when the same person exits? Well, on a train built to modern standards, you won't.
(BTW, the person for whom this sucks the most is the person IN the chair. You can't go anywhere without feeling guilty for making everyone else late. Plus, you're fucking tied down the whole ride.)
Ditto for your precious bike: forget wasting time fiddling with the rack; just wheel it on.
As for the tracks... are you dumber than the entire population of Amsterdam? Then why don't you learn to do what every single person in that bicycle-and-streetcar-filled city has learned to do and coexist?
Ever waited five minutes while a Metro driver fiddled with wheelchair lifts and straps; then another five when the same person exits? Well, on a train built to modern standards, you won't.
(BTW, the person for whom this sucks the most is the person IN the chair. You can't go anywhere without feeling guilty for making everyone else late. Plus, you're fucking tied down the whole ride.)
Ditto for your precious bike: forget wasting time fiddling with the rack; just wheel it on.
As for the tracks... are you dumber than the entire population of Amsterdam? Then why don't you learn to do what every single person in that bicycle-and-streetcar-filled city has learned to do and coexist?
13
@12,
And there are all the people holding up the bus while digging for change, asking if the bus goes to x location, asking the bus driver for directions, waving for the bus driver to wait a few seconds to several minutes. All of that crap goes away on rail.
And there are all the people holding up the bus while digging for change, asking if the bus goes to x location, asking the bus driver for directions, waving for the bus driver to wait a few seconds to several minutes. All of that crap goes away on rail.
14
Good points both @2 & @12.
I'm not really opposed to the streetcar, but I'd rather see all that streetcar money put into revamping Metro and Access to make them both more usable. They do the best they can with limited resources, but with better funding and leadership, there's plenty of room for improvement.
Imagine all the money metro puts into wheelchair accessibility for buses going into the Access system instead. The current Access system sucks (I know--my partner uses it), not because it's poorly designed but because it's massively underfunded. Point to point transportation for disabled riders works a lot better for many reasons.
Without the ramps, the Metro buses could be on time more often, the drivers would require less training, the buses would be cheaper, less fuel burned to carry around the weight of the ramps, etc.
I'm not really opposed to the streetcar, but I'd rather see all that streetcar money put into revamping Metro and Access to make them both more usable. They do the best they can with limited resources, but with better funding and leadership, there's plenty of room for improvement.
Imagine all the money metro puts into wheelchair accessibility for buses going into the Access system instead. The current Access system sucks (I know--my partner uses it), not because it's poorly designed but because it's massively underfunded. Point to point transportation for disabled riders works a lot better for many reasons.
Without the ramps, the Metro buses could be on time more often, the drivers would require less training, the buses would be cheaper, less fuel burned to carry around the weight of the ramps, etc.
15
SWEET! This will stop right outside my theatre! This will look great on our marketing - "FUCK finding parking on CapHill - RIDE THE CLIT! GET OFF AT ANNEX!"
16
Can well all agree now, no matter what the city calls these things that we will definitely call them the CLIT and the BUTT?
17
11th? really? I'd rather a streetcar go on broadway than 12th, but I can at least see why 12th is under major consideration. 11th seems really unsuited to add a mass transit line.
19
I'm just enjoying the thought of Eastsiders contending w/ the streetcars on busy weekend nights in front of, and around Barca, they're already completely illiterate when it comes to signs in front of the garage-oriented businesses that clearly read: NO PARKING 24 HOURS. It will be fun to watch them get run over by very slow moving trolleys.
Evolution at work: Lexus SUV + High heels = death in slow traffic.
Evolution at work: Lexus SUV + High heels = death in slow traffic.
21
The Stranger Staff have their fingers crossed for the Cafe Presse/HoneyHole/Liberty trolley line...
22
11th actually makes a lot of sense: it's a relatively little-used thoroughfare, especially compared to Broadway and 12th, so the streetcars won't be competing with automobile traffic to anywhere near the degree they would be on the other two streets. In addition, most of 11th from Seattle U. up to where the new light rail station is going in at B'way and John is angle-in parking, so while there would be a net loss of parking spaces, switching to parallel parking on the west side of 11th will widen the throughway sufficiently to allow for two lanes of traffic and clearance for the streetcar going both directions.
And the construction phase on 11th will create far less disruption to traffic than would be the case if either Broadway or 12th had to be closed down for a significant period of time to install the rails, overhead wires, curbing, etc.
Finally, running along 11th will place the line roughly halfway between Broadway and 12th, meaning people will only have to walk at most two short blocks in either direction from the main arterials to reach it, rather than a full three blocks were it placed on either one. And best of all, it will have direct access to the east side of the Broadway light-rail station, thus greatly simplifying the process of transferring from one line to the other.
Win-win all the way around, IMO.
And the construction phase on 11th will create far less disruption to traffic than would be the case if either Broadway or 12th had to be closed down for a significant period of time to install the rails, overhead wires, curbing, etc.
Finally, running along 11th will place the line roughly halfway between Broadway and 12th, meaning people will only have to walk at most two short blocks in either direction from the main arterials to reach it, rather than a full three blocks were it placed on either one. And best of all, it will have direct access to the east side of the Broadway light-rail station, thus greatly simplifying the process of transferring from one line to the other.
Win-win all the way around, IMO.
23
This a really terrible idea. It adds several twists and turns to the route, making it slower and more confusing, and puts the streetcar directly on a small street that goes past a residential area on the east edge of the park. A 2-way Broadway alignment makes the most sense. This plan would also make it difficult to close off Denny between 10th ave and Broadway for a pedestrian plaza, as some have advocated.
24
@13, your litany of things that slow Metro buses to a crawl is spot-on.
The reason I chose the particular examples I did (@12) is that @2 was TRYING to argue that a multi-door BRT service with pre-payment would be just as effective as a train.
The wheelchair example is a key difference: trains offer a ride, both in terms of grade and smoothness, that do not require elaborate strap-in procedures. I'm under the impression that U.S. regulations require the strapping-down of patrons on ANY bus, even one that takes a relatively flat route, because it could make sharp side-to-side movements or hypothetically wind up switching to a hilly route. Just one of the many reasons that U.S. BRT will never achieve the efficacy of the Curitiba and Bogotá examples used to sell it. (The main reason is that BRT in the U.S. sucks is that it is usually preferred by cheapskates who will toss any worthwhile features, such as pre-payment, multi-door access, level boarding, lane priority, and ultra-frequency, under the proverbial bus when planning is in its final stages.)
The bicycle example is an equally clear distinction: capacity in BRT tends to be achieved through length rather than width. Even the roomiest BRT vehicle lacks the space for bikes to roll on, and in Seattle, that will mean racks on the front and delays for everyone. Meanwhile, the smallest streetcars still emphasize standing room, which can be used for bikes as well.
I'm not convinced that short-distance and relatively slow streetcars are the answer to any Seattle transit user's prayers, but those who insist buses can do the same just have never ridden any.
The reason I chose the particular examples I did (@12) is that @2 was TRYING to argue that a multi-door BRT service with pre-payment would be just as effective as a train.
The wheelchair example is a key difference: trains offer a ride, both in terms of grade and smoothness, that do not require elaborate strap-in procedures. I'm under the impression that U.S. regulations require the strapping-down of patrons on ANY bus, even one that takes a relatively flat route, because it could make sharp side-to-side movements or hypothetically wind up switching to a hilly route. Just one of the many reasons that U.S. BRT will never achieve the efficacy of the Curitiba and Bogotá examples used to sell it. (The main reason is that BRT in the U.S. sucks is that it is usually preferred by cheapskates who will toss any worthwhile features, such as pre-payment, multi-door access, level boarding, lane priority, and ultra-frequency, under the proverbial bus when planning is in its final stages.)
The bicycle example is an equally clear distinction: capacity in BRT tends to be achieved through length rather than width. Even the roomiest BRT vehicle lacks the space for bikes to roll on, and in Seattle, that will mean racks on the front and delays for everyone. Meanwhile, the smallest streetcars still emphasize standing room, which can be used for bikes as well.
I'm not convinced that short-distance and relatively slow streetcars are the answer to any Seattle transit user's prayers, but those who insist buses can do the same just have never ridden any.
25
@14, you're correct that "point-to-point transportation for disabled riders works a lot better for many reasons" (hilly terrain, stairs required to make connections, wet wheels begetting wet clothes). I would like to see Access divorced entirely from Metro and funded adequately yet independently of Metro's sputtering revenue streams. (A one-driver-per-rider ratio is infinitely costlier, and it's hard to find support for its expansion when it's begging before the same coffers as overtaxed Capitol Hill and Ballard buses.)
However, the Social Model of disability would argue that it's not, in and of itself, a bad thing that the disabled are more palpably present in the urban landscape and on public transit in Seattle than in most cities. (BTW, do you think this is a function of genuine social inclusion, of our temperate climate, of the crappiness of Access, or of some other factors?) Plus, the law requires that ALL transit be accessible unless prevented by some insurmountable pre-1990 infrastructural obstacle. So it is wise to make the accessible boarding process as efficient and amenable as possible.
However, the Social Model of disability would argue that it's not, in and of itself, a bad thing that the disabled are more palpably present in the urban landscape and on public transit in Seattle than in most cities. (BTW, do you think this is a function of genuine social inclusion, of our temperate climate, of the crappiness of Access, or of some other factors?) Plus, the law requires that ALL transit be accessible unless prevented by some insurmountable pre-1990 infrastructural obstacle. So it is wise to make the accessible boarding process as efficient and amenable as possible.
26
d.p. writes: "Even the roomiest BRT vehicle lacks the space for bikes to roll on, and in Seattle, that will mean racks on the front and delays for everyone."
I appreciated your posts, but this one part isn't actually true. Check out the new Swift BRT line on SR 99 in Snohomish County. It's running now. You roll the bikes right onto the bus, no outside rack fiddling required.
http://www.commtrans.org/Projects/Swift.…
I appreciated your posts, but this one part isn't actually true. Check out the new Swift BRT line on SR 99 in Snohomish County. It's running now. You roll the bikes right onto the bus, no outside rack fiddling required.
http://www.commtrans.org/Projects/Swift.…
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Hating People Doesn't Make Them Thinner by Jen Graves
-
Los Angeles Gay Bar Bans Bachelorette Parties Until Marriage Equality Is Attained by David Schmader
-
Fill in the Blank by Grant Brissey
-
This Reminds Me of the Great Calculator Scare of the Late '70s/Early '80s by David Schmader
-
Idiot Tries to Defend Bigoted Anti-Gay-Marriage Preacher on Anderson Cooper by Paul Constant
-
Six Moms with Too Much Time on Their Hands and a Shitty Website Decide to Fight Gay Superheroes by Paul Constant
-
Why Mayor McGinn's Wife Canceled Her Family's Seattle Times Subscription by Eli Sanders
-
What the Hell Is Wrong With Seattle's Pride Parade? by Dominic Holden
-
The Saturday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
-
NYC Man Ticketed for Not Riding in the Bike Lane by Jonathan Golob
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (26) RSS