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News & ArtsFriday, December 4, 2009
Crime / Politics / Drugs Student of the Year
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 2:17 PM
I thought Obama's candidacy was predicated upon the notion of questioning conventional wisdom? Change? Remember change? We can believe in? Or whatever?
1
wish he'd addressed the question directly instead of diverting back to talking points... obama, you smooth bastard.
it's like that moment in a relationship when all the things you loved about the person when you first started going out start to make you want to rip your fucking hair out.
it's like that moment in a relationship when all the things you loved about the person when you first started going out start to make you want to rip your fucking hair out.
2
forget doing it for the economy. do it so that this country can once reclaim the title that it used to have, that of the freeest country on earth.
3
Obama's candidacy and campaign was based on making a bunch of promises and establishing some policy positions that would encourage people to vote for him. It is the same thing that EVERY SINGLE politician has done since long before you and I were born. I don't mind the fact that you're disappointed. I think we all are to some extent. But the way you act like this is something new that has never, ever happened before is annoying. Choose to be credulous and implicitly trust politicians at your own risk.
4
The easy answers are always called "complex" so that those simple answers NEVER have to be stated and then acted upon. Next time someone says, "on that's a complex situation" what they are saying is, "oh we don't want that one solved, EVER."
Obama sees the easy simple answer to the easy simple question, but NOPE we can't.
Obama sees the easy simple answer to the easy simple question, but NOPE we can't.
5
Ha ha ha! Legalizing victimless crimes is such a silly idea! Let's all giggle at the dumb college student - and ignore his questions.
Obama has LOST this liberal. Here's hoping this fraud is a one-termer.
Obama has LOST this liberal. Here's hoping this fraud is a one-termer.
6
screw legalization. at this point i think we all need FREE DRUGS.
The only way to drive the baddies out of business, is to drive them out of business!
The only way to drive the baddies out of business, is to drive them out of business!
7
Meh.. the kid asked an unrealistic question, so he got an evasion. Was Obama supposed to throw off some insanely controversial comment about a topic he knows he can't possibly win and start a media frenzy? Of course not. Sucks, but that's just reality.
@5 - Really? McCain? Palin? I'm not saying you should agree with everything Obama does, or not hold his feet to the fire, etc., but how does a liberal hope he loses in 2012? What good would that do?
@5 - Really? McCain? Palin? I'm not saying you should agree with everything Obama does, or not hold his feet to the fire, etc., but how does a liberal hope he loses in 2012? What good would that do?
9
Man, the giggling people in the background are really annoying. Just as Obama's smugness. The idea in this guy's question is nothing new and has been expressed so many times that Obama making it out to be something eccentric is pretty damn ridiculous. On the other hand, Scamp@7 is totally right, which sucks, frankly.
11
I was disappointed that Obama didn't answer his question directly, but not really surprised. Obama just responded like any politician--avoiding answering questions whose answer could be remembered and discussed more than the platform he was originally talking about.
All the same, it was a question that *should* be addressed, and not swept under the rug as frivolous. Why *don't* we legalize prostitution and drugs? Make it a taxable business like any other, how could that be bad?
I like Obama, for the most part, but his major failing is his fear of grossly offending people. I'd respect him more if he were a bit more bold. I suppose that's considered bad politics nowadays, but I'd prefer it if politicians said what they felt a bit more. It'd certainly make it easier to weed out the crazier ones.
All the same, it was a question that *should* be addressed, and not swept under the rug as frivolous. Why *don't* we legalize prostitution and drugs? Make it a taxable business like any other, how could that be bad?
I like Obama, for the most part, but his major failing is his fear of grossly offending people. I'd respect him more if he were a bit more bold. I suppose that's considered bad politics nowadays, but I'd prefer it if politicians said what they felt a bit more. It'd certainly make it easier to weed out the crazier ones.
12
Once the economy recovers, unemployment declines, and health care is passed, it's not going to really matter what progressives think of Obama anymore. When centrist policies succeed, progressives fade into the background. We on the left want to believe we're relevant, but we're not. Personally, I'll be happy if Obama delivers half his promises, and I believe he will, even if not exactly on schedule.
You can call that naive, but we'll see who's right in three years.
You can call that naive, but we'll see who's right in three years.
13
#10: They live on Planet Seattle. It's a great place to live, but it's a little like being on Pluto sometimes, an isolated rock far away from political reality on Earth.
14
#5 Yes, liberals actually can be as stupid as conservatives, though usually in the opposite direction. Conservatives are dumb because they credulously believe everything their party leaders and spokesmodels tell them. They're loyal idiots.
Dumb people on the left, whether they're moderate liberals or social democrats or socialists, are basically splitters. They like to destroy coalitions and denounce impure politicians. They want their change on their terms, right now! And anything less than that is unacceptable. The left (and I'm saying this as a leftist) love to splinter and fight among themselves, usually along the fault lines of identity politics.
There's always thousands of progressives ready to denounce their votes and threaten to vote green or let the Republicans win to teach the mainstream Democrats a lesson. Of course, these "lessons" are never actually learned because we live in a messy republic, and most politicians are going to gravitate toward what they think is the popular center.
What actually happens is the moderate left is weakened by factionalism and in-fighting, and the good agendas, like health care, are dismantled when the Republicans retake office.
The left has never grapsed the idea that real change actually takes decades of single-party rule and that cutting and running when you don't get what you want virtually guarantees that you'll never get what you want, even tentatively.
Dumb people on the left, whether they're moderate liberals or social democrats or socialists, are basically splitters. They like to destroy coalitions and denounce impure politicians. They want their change on their terms, right now! And anything less than that is unacceptable. The left (and I'm saying this as a leftist) love to splinter and fight among themselves, usually along the fault lines of identity politics.
There's always thousands of progressives ready to denounce their votes and threaten to vote green or let the Republicans win to teach the mainstream Democrats a lesson. Of course, these "lessons" are never actually learned because we live in a messy republic, and most politicians are going to gravitate toward what they think is the popular center.
What actually happens is the moderate left is weakened by factionalism and in-fighting, and the good agendas, like health care, are dismantled when the Republicans retake office.
The left has never grapsed the idea that real change actually takes decades of single-party rule and that cutting and running when you don't get what you want virtually guarantees that you'll never get what you want, even tentatively.
18
#17: the latest unemployment report shows positive progress. I could read your entire manifesto, but I'm not going to. Republicans taking seats in Congress is probably inevitable, but I wouldn't count Obama out yet.
19
The only thing that prostitution is goin to stimulate are middle aged married men or nerd penises.
I've yet to see a pothead stimulated by anything, and crack and heroine addiction are not really the type of 'stimulation' society needs to promote if there is to be any society at all in the future.
None of the vices the kid mention will stimulate diddly squat.
I've yet to see a pothead stimulated by anything, and crack and heroine addiction are not really the type of 'stimulation' society needs to promote if there is to be any society at all in the future.
None of the vices the kid mention will stimulate diddly squat.
20
@Loveschild - erk, except for the economy when the government starts collecting taxes on these things instead of expending trillions of dollars to fight them and to house and care for those imprisoned for the crime of doing what they chose with their own bodies.
21
@14 - also as a leftist, I appreciate your point about infighting and fracturing along lines of identity politics, and would love nothing more than for leftists to be able to find and hold common ground and present a united front.
But, to splinter off, if you will, the American Democratic party is NOT who I want representing that united front. And the only thing the Dems gain from getting your vote is a mandate to continue to be wishy-washy centrist do-nothings.
But, to splinter off, if you will, the American Democratic party is NOT who I want representing that united front. And the only thing the Dems gain from getting your vote is a mandate to continue to be wishy-washy centrist do-nothings.
22
@20
What good will it do to have the coffers full if half of the population or even more are gonna be junkies. Junkies are one mind tracked individual, the only thing they care for is their addiction, most end up begging , stealing or killing to satisfy it, so we will end up with more crimes on that front.
Prostitution: more easily and prevalent spreading of infections, HIV/AIDS, STDs, disruption of marriages. There goes a good chunk if not all of the new taxes in order to tackle on the new problems that will come with them
Gambling: Yeah, you'll get more taxes, along with more homeless people as they gamble everything they own and end up living under a bridge.
That kid's stupidity can be attributed to his age. If he is smart, as he grows older and has to take care of himself instead of havin daddy and mommy provide for him he'll grow out of it. But what's the excuse of grown ass middle aged and older pseudo-intellectuals in the blogosphere?
What good will it do to have the coffers full if half of the population or even more are gonna be junkies. Junkies are one mind tracked individual, the only thing they care for is their addiction, most end up begging , stealing or killing to satisfy it, so we will end up with more crimes on that front.
Prostitution: more easily and prevalent spreading of infections, HIV/AIDS, STDs, disruption of marriages. There goes a good chunk if not all of the new taxes in order to tackle on the new problems that will come with them
Gambling: Yeah, you'll get more taxes, along with more homeless people as they gamble everything they own and end up living under a bridge.
That kid's stupidity can be attributed to his age. If he is smart, as he grows older and has to take care of himself instead of havin daddy and mommy provide for him he'll grow out of it. But what's the excuse of grown ass middle aged and older pseudo-intellectuals in the blogosphere?
23
@Loveschild - Your concept of drug use comes straight out of Hollywood. I understand that you believe that any changes to the status quo will cause the world to jerk out of it's orbit and hurl us all into the abyss, but it would be nice if you'd cite some sources for all of these statistics you're throwing around.
And for someone whose user icon is a bunch of rainbow people holding hands you show a disgusting amount of contempt for your fellow man.
Some of the MASSIVE amount of money we'd generate legalizing these things would also go towards regulating them - creating treatment centers for drug and gambling addicts, making sure prostitutes are tested and creating support systems to prevent sexual assaults, etc.
And you know what contributes more to the spread of STDs than prostitution ever could? Uh, abstinence-only education.
The difference between the world I'm envisioning and the one you're envisioning is actually pretty small - you obviously support the government spending money to protect people - I just happen to believe that people should have the freedom to make their own choices AND the right to be protected by their government.
It's a shame that you'd rather let the government make decisions for you than show a little faith in your fellow man.
And for someone whose user icon is a bunch of rainbow people holding hands you show a disgusting amount of contempt for your fellow man.
Some of the MASSIVE amount of money we'd generate legalizing these things would also go towards regulating them - creating treatment centers for drug and gambling addicts, making sure prostitutes are tested and creating support systems to prevent sexual assaults, etc.
And you know what contributes more to the spread of STDs than prostitution ever could? Uh, abstinence-only education.
The difference between the world I'm envisioning and the one you're envisioning is actually pretty small - you obviously support the government spending money to protect people - I just happen to believe that people should have the freedom to make their own choices AND the right to be protected by their government.
It's a shame that you'd rather let the government make decisions for you than show a little faith in your fellow man.
24
Actually, I don't think legalization would add anything to the economy, it would just move a bunch of economic activity from the black market into the regular market. It would be good for the government's coffers to be able to tax prostitution and drugs. There also be a peace dividend from being able to divert money from law enforcement and prisons.
It would also be good for the prostitutes, johns, and drug consumers. It would be very bad for the current drug dealers, drug manufacturers/growers, and pimps.
But like I said, I don't think there'd actually be any more economic activity. So it would not be stimulus.
It would also be good for the prostitutes, johns, and drug consumers. It would be very bad for the current drug dealers, drug manufacturers/growers, and pimps.
But like I said, I don't think there'd actually be any more economic activity. So it would not be stimulus.
25
@21- The trick is for leftists to be active in the Democratic party's small elections. Elect mayors and state legislators and take control of primaries, stuff like that. And of course, to educate the public at large.
Except I'm beginning to think the public at large has decided they'd rather not be educated, and as long as they get enough Oreos, insulin, and reassuring pablum, they don't give a fuck if America wages pointless wars, tortures people, and slowly slips into third world status.
Except I'm beginning to think the public at large has decided they'd rather not be educated, and as long as they get enough Oreos, insulin, and reassuring pablum, they don't give a fuck if America wages pointless wars, tortures people, and slowly slips into third world status.
27
Ending the drug war is NOT a left vs right issue.
It's authoritarian vs libertarian... and there are authoritarian liberals AND conservatives who don't see a problem with our prison industrial complex, the abuse of civil liberties and waste of resources that could actually be used for policies and programs which reduce the harms of drugs.
It's authoritarian vs libertarian... and there are authoritarian liberals AND conservatives who don't see a problem with our prison industrial complex, the abuse of civil liberties and waste of resources that could actually be used for policies and programs which reduce the harms of drugs.
28
@26. Or the episode of Rick Steve's Europe where he visits Amsterdam. Both prostitution and the trade of marijuana are allowed there, but only in specifically zoned buildings. I haven't heard any stories about rampant Dutch divorce rates or an economy dragged down due to overuse of pot, so I'm assuming it's working just fine for them.
29
A regular yuckfest, that.
And if you honestly think he evaded the question, he didn't. He oh-so-politely told him to screw. As he should have.
And if you honestly think he evaded the question, he didn't. He oh-so-politely told him to screw. As he should have.
30
By evading the kid's question, Obama actually answered it. His response, in plainer English:
"You're right, kid. That would probably help a lot, and everyone knows it. Hookers and drugs are as recession-proof as it gets, and wouldn't we be so much better off if we could tax and regulate it! It could pay for universal health care and we could start to pay back China, not to mention how much safer it would be for drug users and prostitutes and how many pimps and cartels would be instantly put out of business. Yeah, legalizing drugs and prostitution makes so much sense right now it hurts ... But kid, there's no way in hell I or any other politician who ever wants a single campaign contribution ever again is actually going to SAY that. So let's pretend you didn't ask that question or that I gave you a straight answer and move on to the preplanned talking points I was going to segue into regardless of what your question was."
"You're right, kid. That would probably help a lot, and everyone knows it. Hookers and drugs are as recession-proof as it gets, and wouldn't we be so much better off if we could tax and regulate it! It could pay for universal health care and we could start to pay back China, not to mention how much safer it would be for drug users and prostitutes and how many pimps and cartels would be instantly put out of business. Yeah, legalizing drugs and prostitution makes so much sense right now it hurts ... But kid, there's no way in hell I or any other politician who ever wants a single campaign contribution ever again is actually going to SAY that. So let's pretend you didn't ask that question or that I gave you a straight answer and move on to the preplanned talking points I was going to segue into regardless of what your question was."
31
@30 is right. Couldn't everybody feel Obama's pain?
I agree with those of you who wished politicians would be more bold, though. We need some good ol' ancient greek-style democracy, where no one's afraid of pissing a couple people off.
I agree with those of you who wished politicians would be more bold, though. We need some good ol' ancient greek-style democracy, where no one's afraid of pissing a couple people off.
32
14
Your comments about the Left are insightful.
You dismissal of Conservatives is a bit shallow, however.
Conservatives do not "credulously believe everything their party leaders and spokesmodels tell them".
They do, however, realize that achieving anything requires giving up some of their personal pet peeves and working with the group. Compromise- it's not a dirty word in a democracy- and discipline.
They agree with the founder of our party, A.Lincoln; the Emancipator, Father Abraham, Preserver of the Union; who noted that "... Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one. ... "
They are willing to be disciplined loyal soldiers in the culture wars because they recognize that the stakes are high, that the very survival of our society is at stake.
The forces of ever declining morals have the easy case to make- legalize, liberalize, free!
"Free Sex!
Legalize Drugs!
Forget Monogamy and Fidelity!
Forget Personal Responsibility!!
If it feels good Do It!!!
If it turns out badly blame someone else-
Someone needs to cure my STDs!
Someone kill this baby we made!!
Someone pay for my health care!
...and my mortgage!!
....and college tuition!!!
.....and childcare for my kids!!!"
Glibly, moronically Skipping to Gommorah...
It is a seductive appealing philosophy.
It is an easy sell.
It leads to suffering.
And destruction.
And diminshed lives.
And so we fight it.
We enthusiastically vote for underwhelming lesser of two evils, because the greater evil is truly evil.
We stick with our leaders through thick and thin because getting a little good done is better than getting none. (a Reagan doesn't come along every four years, we patiently wait...)
We are not dumb. Or idiots. Or credulous.
Our eyes are wide open.
We are adults.
More...
Your comments about the Left are insightful.
You dismissal of Conservatives is a bit shallow, however.
Conservatives do not "credulously believe everything their party leaders and spokesmodels tell them".
They do, however, realize that achieving anything requires giving up some of their personal pet peeves and working with the group. Compromise- it's not a dirty word in a democracy- and discipline.
They agree with the founder of our party, A.Lincoln; the Emancipator, Father Abraham, Preserver of the Union; who noted that "... Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one. ... "
They are willing to be disciplined loyal soldiers in the culture wars because they recognize that the stakes are high, that the very survival of our society is at stake.
The forces of ever declining morals have the easy case to make- legalize, liberalize, free!
"Free Sex!
Legalize Drugs!
Forget Monogamy and Fidelity!
Forget Personal Responsibility!!
If it feels good Do It!!!
If it turns out badly blame someone else-
Someone needs to cure my STDs!
Someone kill this baby we made!!
Someone pay for my health care!
...and my mortgage!!
....and college tuition!!!
.....and childcare for my kids!!!"
Glibly, moronically Skipping to Gommorah...
It is a seductive appealing philosophy.
It is an easy sell.
It leads to suffering.
And destruction.
And diminshed lives.
And so we fight it.
We enthusiastically vote for underwhelming lesser of two evils, because the greater evil is truly evil.
We stick with our leaders through thick and thin because getting a little good done is better than getting none. (a Reagan doesn't come along every four years, we patiently wait...)
We are not dumb. Or idiots. Or credulous.
Our eyes are wide open.
We are adults.
33
#14 - that was all directed at me? Wow. You're basically right about a lot of what you say, but I think another commenter was more on the money - the Democratic party does not represent liberals. Obama is not a liberal in any meaningful sense of the word. (And his recent decision to "surge" into Afghanistan is pure idiocy.) It's not that I hope any particular Republican wins in 2012 (McCain is done, Palin cannot win a general election, btw), it's more that I just feel like I'm gonna sit the next one out. Granted, a lot can happen in the next 3 years, but it's not looking good. And I admit, drug decriminalization is kind of a pet issue for me - we all have our favorites.
And I live in Portland, Maine - not Seattle.
And Loveschild, go fuck yourself. Again.
And I live in Portland, Maine - not Seattle.
And Loveschild, go fuck yourself. Again.
34
@32: You start by saying "Conservatives do not 'credulously believe everything their party leaders and spokesmodels tell them'. "
and then you go on to talk about your savior, Ronald Reagan. You have zero credibility. In spite of the conservative rewrite of history, Reagan's presidency was a disaster on nearly every front and Reagan himself was an addled, narcoleptic pinhead. Your vaunted "values" are nothing more than greed coated with a thin patina of misguided nostalgia.
and then you go on to talk about your savior, Ronald Reagan. You have zero credibility. In spite of the conservative rewrite of history, Reagan's presidency was a disaster on nearly every front and Reagan himself was an addled, narcoleptic pinhead. Your vaunted "values" are nothing more than greed coated with a thin patina of misguided nostalgia.
35
34
silly girl.
Are you named after our current president? The $1.7 Trillion Deficit Man?
Or is he still your Farce Advocate?
Pray to your heathen humanist spirits and totems that Obama is a tenth the President Reagan was...
silly girl.
Are you named after our current president? The $1.7 Trillion Deficit Man?
Or is he still your Farce Advocate?
Pray to your heathen humanist spirits and totems that Obama is a tenth the President Reagan was...
36
For the record, non-violent crime does not usually refer to victimless crime. When we say non-violent, it usually refers to white-collared.
37
You think we're in war up to our ears now? Just try pulling the different mafia families' best paying gigs out from under them.
38
I think the kid asked the question wrong. I think he meant that we should stop imprisoning people for non-violent offenses. The US has the largest prison population of any industrialized nation, and we spend a lot of money maintaining it.
Completely legalizing victimless crimes would leave money for treatment for those whose vices are destroying their lives.
Legalizing prostition and focussing on the pimps would likely reduce a lot of human traffiking going on (it's working elsewhere). In my opinion, if a woman wants to have sex for money, she should be allowed to. But forcing someone to do that, and then taking all their money is wrong at a very deep level.
Alcohol is legal, but we don't hear people saying that making it illegal would solve the problem of alcoholism. Gambling is legal in most states already, thanks to the Catholic church and their bingo and casino fund raising nights.
30 is right though. No politician is going to say those things and agree with the kid.
Completely legalizing victimless crimes would leave money for treatment for those whose vices are destroying their lives.
Legalizing prostition and focussing on the pimps would likely reduce a lot of human traffiking going on (it's working elsewhere). In my opinion, if a woman wants to have sex for money, she should be allowed to. But forcing someone to do that, and then taking all their money is wrong at a very deep level.
Alcohol is legal, but we don't hear people saying that making it illegal would solve the problem of alcoholism. Gambling is legal in most states already, thanks to the Catholic church and their bingo and casino fund raising nights.
30 is right though. No politician is going to say those things and agree with the kid.
39
Six of one, half-dozen of the other. You stay home, you're half-way to voting for the Republicans. Obama went from a non-entity to a president in one term. The Republicans just have to pick their candidate and this could all turn around again in 2012.
I appreciate Fierce Advocacy Watch and the question this kid asked the president and all these other perfectly accurate and salient criticisms, but maybe Americans in general should take a moment and try to remember that it's actually Congress's job to write laws, and Congress is who we should go after when we don't like the legislative atmosphere of the country. Even assuming Obama did try to do some of the things we're asking for, top-down change is unstable. If we want our agenda to stick, we need to get Congress moving on it. I know that's not as sexy as just taking shots at the president, but it'd be a million times more effective.
It's not that I hope any particular Republican wins in 2012 (McCain is done, Palin cannot win a general election, btw), it's more that I just feel like I'm gonna sit the next one out.
Six of one, half-dozen of the other. You stay home, you're half-way to voting for the Republicans. Obama went from a non-entity to a president in one term. The Republicans just have to pick their candidate and this could all turn around again in 2012.
I appreciate Fierce Advocacy Watch and the question this kid asked the president and all these other perfectly accurate and salient criticisms, but maybe Americans in general should take a moment and try to remember that it's actually Congress's job to write laws, and Congress is who we should go after when we don't like the legislative atmosphere of the country. Even assuming Obama did try to do some of the things we're asking for, top-down change is unstable. If we want our agenda to stick, we need to get Congress moving on it. I know that's not as sexy as just taking shots at the president, but it'd be a million times more effective.
40
@36- "When we say non-violent, it usually refers to white-collared."
No it doesn't. It means any crime without an act of violence. So shoplifting, drug dealing, prostitution....all non-violent.
@37- Yes, just like how the Mafia went crazy after the end of prohibition and killed lots of people. Oh, wait...the Mafia in the USA almost went out of business after prohibition. Hired goons don't stick around if you can't pay them.
No it doesn't. It means any crime without an act of violence. So shoplifting, drug dealing, prostitution....all non-violent.
@37- Yes, just like how the Mafia went crazy after the end of prohibition and killed lots of people. Oh, wait...the Mafia in the USA almost went out of business after prohibition. Hired goons don't stick around if you can't pay them.
41
"Obama has LOST this liberal"
Are you kidding? The centrists tossed you loony leftists over first.
Sorry, but most of America is not interested in your pot smoking, testicle licking, arts-driven agenda. You are but a speck on the political spectrum, enjoy being irrelevant.
Are you kidding? The centrists tossed you loony leftists over first.
Sorry, but most of America is not interested in your pot smoking, testicle licking, arts-driven agenda. You are but a speck on the political spectrum, enjoy being irrelevant.
42
"Both prostitution and the trade of marijuana are allowed there, but only in specifically zoned buildings."
De Wallen is a total shit hole, filled with pick-pocketing little Arab fackers , dopers, scum bags and American frat boys. If that's what you want to live in, be my guest.
De Wallen is a total shit hole, filled with pick-pocketing little Arab fackers , dopers, scum bags and American frat boys. If that's what you want to live in, be my guest.
43
Even the Ducth are getting sick of it:
"At the end of 2008, mayor Job Cohen announced plans to close half of the city’s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity; part of the city's 70 marijuana cafes and sex clubs will also be closed"
"At the end of 2008, mayor Job Cohen announced plans to close half of the city’s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity; part of the city's 70 marijuana cafes and sex clubs will also be closed"
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