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News & ArtsFriday, December 4, 2009
Crime UPDATE: Amanda Knox Is Guilty
Posted by Charles Mudede on Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:29 PM
UPDATE: Amanda Knox has been sentenced to 26 years in prison.
BBC reports:
American student Amanda Knox and her former boyfriend have been found guilty by an Italian court of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher.Still, both got less than the African. A year ago, Rudy Guede was handed 30 years.
Knox was jailed for 26 years and Italian Raffaele Sollecito, 25, for 25 years after a jury found them both guilty of murder and sexual violence.
A great picture of her departing the court is over here. The future is now settled for Amanda Knox:
The Image is from Knox's now-dead Facebook account.
EDITOR'S NOTE: On October 3, 2011, Amanda Knox was acquitted of the murder of Meredith Kercher and released from prison.
2
I've been waiting for your Ak post all day, Charles.
Do you think she'll be found innocent or guilty?
Do you think she'll be found innocent or guilty?
3
i can't wait until this trial is over and the phrase "drug-fueled sex orgy" finally starts to regain some of it's meaning.
4
with just 11 hours, they ain't gonna find guilt.
not to mention utter lack of evidence as to the case itself, or the total lack of any plausible theory as to motive.
not to mention utter lack of evidence as to the case itself, or the total lack of any plausible theory as to motive.
7
Ah, if only I had been on that jury. I'm sure I could have found a way for her to, um, convince me of her innocence.
9
She looks so much like Manson girl Sandy Good, it adds to her creepiness. I don't understand all the smiling in court. It's very sociopathic.
12
Will Charles be live-blogging his sexual climax during the announcement? It's been building up for so long. The release...
17
Processo Perugia, Knox e Sollecito colpevoli (http://www.corriere.it/); Google tells me colpevoli means guilty.
19
Charles, may I recommend the film "Reform School Girls" and a bottle of bourbon to finally excorise this whole messy affair from your mind and soul, that you may move on with your life?
26
I'll bet she'll still be mighty fine at 48. Of course, most of you folks will be even older than that by then.
30
Italy's descent into 3-world status continues apace. This is a travesty of justice. I have no idea whether she's guilty of anything or not, but the charges as they were brought are laughably absurd. This is akin to the Wenatchee Sex Ring case on the bullshit scale.
31
Charles- isn't the reason "the african" (as you put it) got a longer sentence was because of the sexual assault thing? He did have intercourse with her, and his claim was it was consentual.
33
@3 - I'm pretty excited not to hear the phrase "while [so-and-so] touched her with the point of a knife" or similar anymore, which is the most stupidly cumbersome sentence ever and appeared in every single news article about this trial.
@17 - I don't know shit about Latin or whatever, but I'm guessing "colpevoli" is from the same root as "culpable."
@17 - I don't know shit about Latin or whatever, but I'm guessing "colpevoli" is from the same root as "culpable."
35
@30, Fnarf, could you elaborate on that, if you don't mind?
I've only been following loosely, and I don't have much sense of whether I think she's guilty or not at this point.
I've only been following loosely, and I don't have much sense of whether I think she's guilty or not at this point.
37
@35: Berlusconi, murder via devil-worshiping group sex games, plummeting birthrate... I think that's the tip of the iceberg.
38
I wasn't convinced of her innocence, but neither was I convinced of her guilt. I'd have to go with "reasonable doubt."
39
It seems quite possible that she was innocent. And either way, it sounds like there were some real problems with her trial. Timothy Egan has a good piece about it in the NYT: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/200…
40
I wonder if Italy will set her free in return for us turning over one of our CIA agents who broke the law there?
My guess is the verdict had a lot more to do with Italian anger over that than her actual guilt.
My guess is the verdict had a lot more to do with Italian anger over that than her actual guilt.
44
Most of the analysts who understand the Italian court system seem to think she'll be released on appeal.
45
Neat how Charles left an unclosed ITALIC tag in this post, thus ITALICIZING the whole rest of the blog. You know, because this took place in ITALY.
That Charles, always looking to McLuhanize your ass!
That Charles, always looking to McLuhanize your ass!
46
30 - the charges were brought by a judge, not the prosecutor that friends of Amanda has villianized. And many more judges over the last couple of years also confirmed that there was a case.
Lots of DNA evidence, even excluding the knife. Just because the Italian justice system is different, does not make it inferior. I challenge people who claim 3rd world justice to produce actual reasons for its inferiority. And don't start with that bullshit about guilty until proven innocent. That's false and is easily proven to be more lies by friends of a murderer....oops, I mean friends of Amanda.
Read the Micheli report.
Lots of DNA evidence, even excluding the knife. Just because the Italian justice system is different, does not make it inferior. I challenge people who claim 3rd world justice to produce actual reasons for its inferiority. And don't start with that bullshit about guilty until proven innocent. That's false and is easily proven to be more lies by friends of a murderer....oops, I mean friends of Amanda.
Read the Micheli report.
47
Bright side: She's gonna speak hella Italian in 26 years. Waaay more than most kids who go to Italy to study abroad.
49
31- Guede did not have intercourse with her. It appears he stopped short and only fingered her. Which is just as violating as rape in my mind. Although Guede was the only one to help Merideth (by trying to stop the bleeding using towels). But he did not call for help, and left her to die a very painful death.
51
@46
The prosecution's supposed murder weapon was too big to produce the stab wound on the victim. The DNA evidence was inconclusive. Of course her DNA was everywhere, she lived there! The prosecutor made claims about a satanic sex game and produced no evidence beyond a computer animation to substantiate the claim. Sloggers know satanic sex games and we want proof!
The prosecution's supposed murder weapon was too big to produce the stab wound on the victim. The DNA evidence was inconclusive. Of course her DNA was everywhere, she lived there! The prosecutor made claims about a satanic sex game and produced no evidence beyond a computer animation to substantiate the claim. Sloggers know satanic sex games and we want proof!
52
anyone primed to dis italy's legal system should keep in mind all the fucked up shit that happens in america's legal system.
not saying there is some 1:1 comparison between america and italy here, but i look forward to seeing a bunch of hypocritical bullshit about how terrible italy is in the local papers as a result of this verdict.
not saying there is some 1:1 comparison between america and italy here, but i look forward to seeing a bunch of hypocritical bullshit about how terrible italy is in the local papers as a result of this verdict.
53
@47 - true. She'd be well advised to start working on a writing career, as that's one of the few things you can do, and she'll learn lots of fascinating stories while stuck in jail.
54
i'm with fnarf. this is a normal middle class seattle college student. she smokes weed, she has premarital sex without guilt, she does yoga poses to calm herself down in a stressful situation. she had no motivation to kill her roommate. the evidence is circumstantial. the investigation was incompetent. it took 2 years and how many italian vacation days to get to this tragic verdict? hopefully there are some rational officials higher in the italian justice system. what a nightmare for her. this could be your daughter.
56
@52 It's not hypocritical to say Italy's justice system failed to deliver justice, but only to do so while saying the American system is perfect at the same time. Injustice is injustice everywhere.
58
51- Throw the knife out then. There was lots of forensic evidence in the room and on Merideth's body that left a story about how it happened. The bruising on her arms and legs from being held down by two different people, the multiple small knife wounds, different people's bloody footprints in the room. The death blow was consistent with that of the large knife with Kercher and Knox DNA. Knox may want to ignore that along with the her false alibis, false accusations, sloppy cleanup, staged break-in and uncanny knowledge of the murder scene that she never saw...
Also that her DNA was found in Filomena's room (staged break-in) mixed with Kercher's blood. Her DNA was not "all over the house". It was found in 5 places that all happened to be mixed with Merideth's blood. Plus Sollecito's ample DNA on the bra clasp. Why is the Guede's DNA, is A-OK an but then Knox and Sollecito's was tampered with?
Also that her DNA was found in Filomena's room (staged break-in) mixed with Kercher's blood. Her DNA was not "all over the house". It was found in 5 places that all happened to be mixed with Merideth's blood. Plus Sollecito's ample DNA on the bra clasp. Why is the Guede's DNA, is A-OK an but then Knox and Sollecito's was tampered with?
59
@56 - yes, but ours mostly fails if you're poor and/or black.
The quantities of DNA available are what tell the story of innocence, @58 - replication of the DNA gives you sufficient quantity, but the initial quantity shows she was not the primary DNA donor.
The quantities of DNA available are what tell the story of innocence, @58 - replication of the DNA gives you sufficient quantity, but the initial quantity shows she was not the primary DNA donor.
60
Merideth took Amanda's job (an employer she falsely accused of committing the murder), dated the guy Amanda liked who lived downstairs, and complained about her slutty lifestyle. Amanda wasn't a maneater, she was a women hater. Few women friends, only getting along with men.
Amanda was jealous and grew to hate Merideth. Hence the fight which led to the sexual humiliation, and then to murder.
Amanda was jealous and grew to hate Merideth. Hence the fight which led to the sexual humiliation, and then to murder.
61
@35, @37 pretty much covers it. It's not about the DNA; DNA is worthless in a case like this. What's absurd beyond belief is the PROSECUTOR'S -- not the judges', the prosecutor's -- devip-worshipping sex game scenario that simply doesn't pass the smell test.
The inadequacies of the US legal system are not germane here. For a US equivalent, see the McManus or Wenatchee sex-ring cases.
http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/07/06/s…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_s…
Italy is a psycho-sexual freakshow, with the Catholic Church, widespread belief in satanism and witchcraft, and the unfortunate fact that virtually every aspect of Italian society is financially corrupt beyond belief.
Knox was convicted in a sex panic because her parents didn't pay the bribe. A couple hundred thousand bucks and it all would have gone away. That's how EVERYTHING in Italy works.
The inadequacies of the US legal system are not germane here. For a US equivalent, see the McManus or Wenatchee sex-ring cases.
http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/07/06/s…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_s…
Italy is a psycho-sexual freakshow, with the Catholic Church, widespread belief in satanism and witchcraft, and the unfortunate fact that virtually every aspect of Italian society is financially corrupt beyond belief.
Knox was convicted in a sex panic because her parents didn't pay the bribe. A couple hundred thousand bucks and it all would have gone away. That's how EVERYTHING in Italy works.
62
@58 - If we're going to throw the knife evidence out, then let's throw it out.
The DNA evidence was shown only to be a possible match with Knox's but not hers definitively. Sollecito's DNA on her bra proves only that he touched her bra, not that he killed her. DNA evidence staging a break-in is weak since just as the break-in could be staged, so can DNA evidence.
The bruises from multiple people were not shown to be caused by the defendants. Same with the smaller knife wounds.
There was lots of circumstantial evidence and lots of unsubstantiated hypotheses presented by the prosecution. No motive was ever given. I'm not familiar with Italy's justice system to know if beyond-a-reasonable-doubt is the threshold for conviction, but based on this case I would presume it's not.
The DNA evidence was shown only to be a possible match with Knox's but not hers definitively. Sollecito's DNA on her bra proves only that he touched her bra, not that he killed her. DNA evidence staging a break-in is weak since just as the break-in could be staged, so can DNA evidence.
The bruises from multiple people were not shown to be caused by the defendants. Same with the smaller knife wounds.
There was lots of circumstantial evidence and lots of unsubstantiated hypotheses presented by the prosecution. No motive was ever given. I'm not familiar with Italy's justice system to know if beyond-a-reasonable-doubt is the threshold for conviction, but based on this case I would presume it's not.
63
59- The only sample which was of questionable suffieciency was the knife. Throw that out and there is still plenty of other DNA mixed with Merideth's blood to convict her. Not to mention she claimed to be there during the murder, heard Merideths screams, and then accused the guy who just fired her of murder.
She was questioned voluntarily starting in the late evening. She came in with Sollectio because he was being questioned. After a few hours (early hours of the morning) Amanda came up with her story about Lumumba. She was then immediately considered a suspect and questioning was stopped. Upon resumption after it was made clear she was a suspect Amanda repeated her story. These were both thrown out by the court. However, a third time she wrote down the statement, and offered it as a "gift" to the investigators. Completely voluntarily and not even asked for by the police. Then she let Lumumba sit in jail for two weeks, not lifting a finger to help him.
She was questioned voluntarily starting in the late evening. She came in with Sollectio because he was being questioned. After a few hours (early hours of the morning) Amanda came up with her story about Lumumba. She was then immediately considered a suspect and questioning was stopped. Upon resumption after it was made clear she was a suspect Amanda repeated her story. These were both thrown out by the court. However, a third time she wrote down the statement, and offered it as a "gift" to the investigators. Completely voluntarily and not even asked for by the police. Then she let Lumumba sit in jail for two weeks, not lifting a finger to help him.
64
@60, that's an incredibly lazy, flaccid story. The Italian prosecutor didn't even work very hard at it, and their cops hopelessly botched the investigation.
65
62 - So Sollecito only raped her, not murdered her? Why would someone stage a break-in and clean-up the scene?
Because they wanted to make it look like someone who didn't have keys to the house committed the murder. The only people who had any interest in staging a break-in was either of her roommates. Their other two roommates have rock solid alibi's. Amanda and Sollectio changed their alibi stories multiple times.
Because they wanted to make it look like someone who didn't have keys to the house committed the murder. The only people who had any interest in staging a break-in was either of her roommates. Their other two roommates have rock solid alibi's. Amanda and Sollectio changed their alibi stories multiple times.
66
@60 Again all circumstantial evidence, assuming the evidence of jealousy was proven and not just said by someone. Saying something doesn't make it true. Saying a satanic sex game occurred doesn't make it true. Fancy computer animations don't make something true. Saying things is just theater, not justice.
68
64 - Motivations to murder are not neccessarily good reasons to do it. Amanda wrote a twisted rape story and posted it to myspace. She has a sick mind that blows jealousy and anger out of proportion. But she knows what she did is wrong. Merideth's body was covered by a duvet because while doing the cleanup (which she was also convicted), Amanda could not handle seeing the body of the person she had so brutally murdered.
70
@65 Touching someone's bra does not equal rape. Your logical leaps are just like the prosecution's.
71
Guilty guilty guilty.
Hey stupid people, you can not go to another country, get high and be retarded and think that just because your passport says America means you get away with anything.
Thank you Italy for throwing this particular piece of trash into the garbage bin of your jails. Let this be a lesson to all those who travel and think that what happens in (fill in the blank) stays there.
Hey stupid people, you can not go to another country, get high and be retarded and think that just because your passport says America means you get away with anything.
Thank you Italy for throwing this particular piece of trash into the garbage bin of your jails. Let this be a lesson to all those who travel and think that what happens in (fill in the blank) stays there.
72
stevema14420, where the fuck did you come from all the sudden? you sound like a british tabloid. NO MIDDLE CLASS COLLEGE GIRL FROM SEATTLE HAS EVER DONE ANYTHING LIKE THIS. in the history of our city. i don't care how much weed she smoked. in america, people who do shit like this are certafiably fucking insane. she is transparently not insane. there are no satanic sex-game murder clubs amongst our UW student body. american TV makes you paranoid, and europe needs to turn that shit off and read a book. albanian cab driver my ass.
73
I don't know if she's guilty or not, but do middle-class Seattle girls routinely finger their innocent black bosses as murderers?
74
I'm looking forward to the Giallo film based on this case which will hopefully feature Asia Argento in the role of Foxy Knoxy.
75
I admit I don't know every detail of this case, but I read a long article, linked to months and months back (by Charles, actually) which convinced me that she is very likely innocent. I think Amanda was an immature drama queen who behaved bizarrely when she was charged (maybe because she enjoyed the show of it, and didn't think for a moment that it would be anything but a temporary adventure). And now she's going to jail for 26 years and we still don't know who murdered that poor girl, and why. Sad, all around.
76
@71
Wow, how wrong you are. Perugia has been a college party town for well over half a century (my sister attended in the 70's). Young people from all over the world have gone there, acted retarded, taken far more drugs than you'll ever see, and left w/o being put in jail.
Hey, read your other comments. Not that I needed any convincing, but you're living proof that there is no such thing as a conservative w/ intelligence. As John Stuart Mills said, "All stupid people are not conservative, but all conservatives are stupid."
Wow, how wrong you are. Perugia has been a college party town for well over half a century (my sister attended in the 70's). Young people from all over the world have gone there, acted retarded, taken far more drugs than you'll ever see, and left w/o being put in jail.
Hey, read your other comments. Not that I needed any convincing, but you're living proof that there is no such thing as a conservative w/ intelligence. As John Stuart Mills said, "All stupid people are not conservative, but all conservatives are stupid."
79
72 - I smoke weed everyday and I doubt very much that it took any part in this crime. I sincerely think they were not baked when they did this. It would have calmed them down.
As far as "British tabloid"... I have lived in Seattle all my life and most of the information I have provided came directly from the judge who sent Knox and Sollecito to trial. I am sure this sort of thing has happened before. Maybe it's not beautiful people who have money killing someone. It doesn't get noticed when Jerry Springer type trailer trash or poor ugly people do it.
As far as "British tabloid"... I have lived in Seattle all my life and most of the information I have provided came directly from the judge who sent Knox and Sollecito to trial. I am sure this sort of thing has happened before. Maybe it's not beautiful people who have money killing someone. It doesn't get noticed when Jerry Springer type trailer trash or poor ugly people do it.
81
Is anyone exploring the patent hypocrasy of Seattle with Clemmons vs. Knox?
Clearly being a large black man with a mole makes you a "worse" killer than being a young long haired Husky woman.
What gives? One persons family is jailed, the other is allowed to protest, use money to fool the media and so on.
Why aren't those "younger voters" seeing the overt inequality of reporting and treatment?!?
Is anyone exploring the patent hypocrasy of Seattle with Clemmons vs. Knox?
Clearly being a large black man with a mole makes you a "worse" killer than being a young long haired Husky woman.
What gives? One persons family is jailed, the other is allowed to protest, use money to fool the media and so on.
Why aren't those "younger voters" seeing the overt inequality of reporting and treatment?!?
83
What a fucking crock to convict someone with zero evidence and no motive. I am sure she will be getting out on appeal.
84
As for falsely accusing her boss for murder, that's a bit deceptive. I believe while she was being questioned by the police (for several hours) she was asked if it was possible that Patrick Lumumba killed Kercher and she said, "I suppose it's possible." That's a mite different than saying, "Patrick Lumumba killed Meredith Kercher."
I don't know either way if she is guilty or innocent, but I do think she didn't have a fair trial. The case was investigated by the same incompetent police responsible for "The Monster Of Florence" mess. She was tried and convicted by the press before the trial even started mainly because Kercher The Prude was murdered and Amanda is a "dirty minded she-devil" who owns a vibrator and likes sex and drugs.
"There were five instances of Amanda Knoxs blood or DNA mixed with Merediths blood in three different locations in the cottage in Via della Pergola: the bathroom, the hallway, and Filomenas bedroom.
Amanda Knoxs blood was found mingled with Merediths blood in three places in the bathroom: on the ledge of the basin, on the bidet, and on a box of Q Tips cotton swabs."
I don't know either way if she is guilty or innocent, but I do think she didn't have a fair trial. The case was investigated by the same incompetent police responsible for "The Monster Of Florence" mess. She was tried and convicted by the press before the trial even started mainly because Kercher The Prude was murdered and Amanda is a "dirty minded she-devil" who owns a vibrator and likes sex and drugs.
"There were five instances of Amanda Knoxs blood or DNA mixed with Merediths blood in three different locations in the cottage in Via della Pergola: the bathroom, the hallway, and Filomenas bedroom.
Amanda Knoxs blood was found mingled with Merediths blood in three places in the bathroom: on the ledge of the basin, on the bidet, and on a box of Q Tips cotton swabs."
86
Occam's razor says that the simplest explanation tends to be the best one. The prosecutor's sex game theory is just stupid. How many women are killed by 3 people having a sex game. None that I have ever heard of. How many are killed by one man raping them. Probably one a week somewhere in the world.
Why would a young couple commit this crime with a man they didn't know. It makes no sense...who would even make up such a scenario...a pervert. But that pervert also knows that wild sex stories make for a lot of press coverage and ambitious prosecutors do love media attention.
This women was convicted by the media who also had an agenda...they sold lots of papers with the wild sexual game angle and tainted the jury pool. Everyone believed her to be guilty long before the trial began and it is nearly impossible to change a person's mind once they are convinced.
But, I believe these prosecutors will get what is coming to them. Karma is a powerful thing.
Why would a young couple commit this crime with a man they didn't know. It makes no sense...who would even make up such a scenario...a pervert. But that pervert also knows that wild sex stories make for a lot of press coverage and ambitious prosecutors do love media attention.
This women was convicted by the media who also had an agenda...they sold lots of papers with the wild sexual game angle and tainted the jury pool. Everyone believed her to be guilty long before the trial began and it is nearly impossible to change a person's mind once they are convinced.
But, I believe these prosecutors will get what is coming to them. Karma is a powerful thing.
87
@84: from Newsweek's coverage, it appears she made oral and written confessions (later retracted) that she was there and covered her ears to muffle her roommate's screams while Lumumba supposedly committed the murder. A bit different from saying "I suppose it's possible".
88
@ 87,
As I said before, I don't know if she's innocent or guilty. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. What I do know is she was convicted in the press (and by police) before the trial even began. (No presumption of innocence outside the U.S. courts.) Neither the press or the police are known for caring about truth and justice these days.
As I said before, I don't know if she's innocent or guilty. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. What I do know is she was convicted in the press (and by police) before the trial even began. (No presumption of innocence outside the U.S. courts.) Neither the press or the police are known for caring about truth and justice these days.
89
justin,
maybe you should look into laurie ann swank, a female that instigated a brutal gangrape and murder of her roommate to teach her a lesson.
just because it's rare, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. knox is guilty as shit.
it's also incredibly insulting the way her family has behaved, not once reaching out to the kerchers - it only makes the guilty moron look even more so. hiring a PR team to get local and national news orgs to paint misleading pictures of their daughter - it's overly pathetic.
you're right, karma is a bitch, and it finally caught up to one. it's a good lesson for americans to learn, foreign justice systems aren't equal to the u.s. system. it's an important lesson for all americans travelling abroad.
maybe you should look into laurie ann swank, a female that instigated a brutal gangrape and murder of her roommate to teach her a lesson.
just because it's rare, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. knox is guilty as shit.
it's also incredibly insulting the way her family has behaved, not once reaching out to the kerchers - it only makes the guilty moron look even more so. hiring a PR team to get local and national news orgs to paint misleading pictures of their daughter - it's overly pathetic.
you're right, karma is a bitch, and it finally caught up to one. it's a good lesson for americans to learn, foreign justice systems aren't equal to the u.s. system. it's an important lesson for all americans travelling abroad.
90
@87, the attorney who organized Friends of amanda claims that all of the "confessions" and "interogation" of Amanda that night were derived from prosecutorial what if games with Amanda, primarily before she was told she was a suspect and then eligible for mandatory legal counsel. Also, the signed confession is suspect as it is written in perfect Italian at a time when her Italian was rudimentary. I can't answer your question completely, but the above can begin to explain her actions while being interogated.
Also, Italian courts have the same stated standard as we do of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. However, I honestly question whether either Italian or American jurors truly understand what that means.
30 years ago American kids were getting drug convictions overseas and receiving 20 year sentances. Huge warnings went out to travelers that you best keep your "nose" squeaky clean as it is difficult to truly appreciate the repercussions of your your illegal actions (however minor YOU may believe them) under someone else's laws.
Also, Italian courts have the same stated standard as we do of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. However, I honestly question whether either Italian or American jurors truly understand what that means.
30 years ago American kids were getting drug convictions overseas and receiving 20 year sentances. Huge warnings went out to travelers that you best keep your "nose" squeaky clean as it is difficult to truly appreciate the repercussions of your your illegal actions (however minor YOU may believe them) under someone else's laws.
91
I find it hilarious and rather alarming that so many people commenting on this story seem to regard Italy as some sort of third world backwater filled with bumbling policeman who's main motivation is getting back at America........for....um.....actually I'm not sure what for. Please enlighten me! Italy is generally not a superstitious, witch-hunting place steeped in religious dogma and devoid of logic - but perhaps parts of middle America fit that description? The accusation that Italy has an inferior judicial system can be answered in one easy sentence: anyone here remember OJ Simpson? I can understand that people may feel the handling of some of the evidence in this case was open to criticism but damning the whole legal system of a country on the basis of that is like saying all Arabs are terrorists. Please rest assured that if American students visit Europe and don't slit anyone's throat they are unlikely to fall into the nefarious clutches of a vindictive police force and given long jail sentences just because they are a bit too saucy for fusty, frumpy old Europe to cope with.
92
@91, you were doing great until the end. I wouldn't rest assured on much once you are associated even remotely with a crime. Italians, just like Americans, have biases. Those biases can be employed even more easily on a foreigner or outsider.
Regardless of all that, there's plenty of evidence in this case. The question is whether it supports gulit beyond a reasonable doubt.
Regardless of all that, there's plenty of evidence in this case. The question is whether it supports gulit beyond a reasonable doubt.
93
@92, good point, fully taken on board, but I'm just pointing out that she may well have encountered as much, if not more, negative press and public feeling in America. I just want to question an image of Europe being a less liberal or just society than the US. Personally, I think she is probably guilty, but she wasn't convicted because of anti American feeling, that I'm sure of.
94
it's depressing how many of the comments come across
as racist.
the irony is that it is, in fact, you that are living
up to a cultural stereotype....not the italians.
blinkered,entitled,superior,ignorant AMERICANS.
sad and shameful.
grow up.
as racist.
the irony is that it is, in fact, you that are living
up to a cultural stereotype....not the italians.
blinkered,entitled,superior,ignorant AMERICANS.
sad and shameful.
grow up.
95
@ 91,
I believe in previous Amanda Knox related threads it's been pointed out that Italy's legal system is based on Napoleonic code which is rooted in the Spanish Inquisition (see #84 for the link to the Malleus Maleficarum). If it is true I think painting Italy's legal system as backward is probably not too far from the truth. Especially if you take into account the same police and prosecutors responsible for investigating and trying Amanda Knox are the same bumblers that investigated and prosecuted the "Monster Of Florence" case.
I believe in previous Amanda Knox related threads it's been pointed out that Italy's legal system is based on Napoleonic code which is rooted in the Spanish Inquisition (see #84 for the link to the Malleus Maleficarum). If it is true I think painting Italy's legal system as backward is probably not too far from the truth. Especially if you take into account the same police and prosecutors responsible for investigating and trying Amanda Knox are the same bumblers that investigated and prosecuted the "Monster Of Florence" case.
96
@95,
Then let's talk about those particular prosecutors, not Italy as a whole.
With all due respect talking about the Napoleonic code and the Spanish Inquisition is a little pejorative don't you think? The Malleus Maleficarum is a treatise on witchcraft written in the 15th century, a little before the Salem witch trials I believe, and I fail to see it's relevance here. All of our countries had questionable ethics at the inception of their judicial systems and I don't think any county's legal system is beyond reproach. As far as I know Italy abolished the death penalty in 1948.....
Then let's talk about those particular prosecutors, not Italy as a whole.
With all due respect talking about the Napoleonic code and the Spanish Inquisition is a little pejorative don't you think? The Malleus Maleficarum is a treatise on witchcraft written in the 15th century, a little before the Salem witch trials I believe, and I fail to see it's relevance here. All of our countries had questionable ethics at the inception of their judicial systems and I don't think any county's legal system is beyond reproach. As far as I know Italy abolished the death penalty in 1948.....
97
@95
do i really have to say this....
apparently so.
EVERY LEGAL SYSTEM IS FLAWED!
i'm certainly sure the amount of injustice pedalled
(not to mention bumbling investigations etc)
by american courts is as great as anywhere else in the world.
"napoleonic code""spanish inquisition""Malleus Maleficarum"
you sound like badly conceived character from the Da Vinci Code?
one again.......do i really have to say it ...........
if you look at the origins of ANY legal systems you will
find some strangeness and wrongness!
maybe you should actually look into the MODERN italian legal system
before you start calling it backward (beyond using 2 blockbuster cases
as 'evidence' of their uselessness.......talk about bungled investigation!)
you will find GOOD thing and BAD things.....
JUST LIKE ANYWHERE ELSE.
once again....grow up!
do i really have to say this....
apparently so.
EVERY LEGAL SYSTEM IS FLAWED!
i'm certainly sure the amount of injustice pedalled
(not to mention bumbling investigations etc)
by american courts is as great as anywhere else in the world.
"napoleonic code""spanish inquisition""Malleus Maleficarum"
you sound like badly conceived character from the Da Vinci Code?
one again.......do i really have to say it ...........
if you look at the origins of ANY legal systems you will
find some strangeness and wrongness!
maybe you should actually look into the MODERN italian legal system
before you start calling it backward (beyond using 2 blockbuster cases
as 'evidence' of their uselessness.......talk about bungled investigation!)
you will find GOOD thing and BAD things.....
JUST LIKE ANYWHERE ELSE.
once again....grow up!
100
Has anyone here read about (or seen the film about) Darryl Hunt, who spent 20 years in prison in North Carolina for a rape and murder that he didn't commit.
The prosecutor was so pathologically incapable of admitting his errors that, when new (and potentially exonerating) information came to light, he simply re-spun his theory of events to ever-more-implausibly implicate Hunt. Even after the real murderer was identified, he tried to peg Hunt as an accomplice (even though the two were complete strangers). Fortunately, by that point neither the public nor the judge who ruled to overturn Hunt's conviction were buying the prosecutor's logical contortions.
Despite very different circumstances and very different players, the same phenomenon has manifested here: Prosecutors devised the Knox-and-Sollecito escalated-sex-game theory before Guede was identified, caught, or charged. So even though he was the Occam's razor of the crime-scene, they couldn't back away from their in-progress Knox-and-Sollecito vilification, so they reconstituted their theory to put the three of them in league.
Their theory is as fanciful as Intelligent Design, and just as flimsy.
The prosecutor was so pathologically incapable of admitting his errors that, when new (and potentially exonerating) information came to light, he simply re-spun his theory of events to ever-more-implausibly implicate Hunt. Even after the real murderer was identified, he tried to peg Hunt as an accomplice (even though the two were complete strangers). Fortunately, by that point neither the public nor the judge who ruled to overturn Hunt's conviction were buying the prosecutor's logical contortions.
Despite very different circumstances and very different players, the same phenomenon has manifested here: Prosecutors devised the Knox-and-Sollecito escalated-sex-game theory before Guede was identified, caught, or charged. So even though he was the Occam's razor of the crime-scene, they couldn't back away from their in-progress Knox-and-Sollecito vilification, so they reconstituted their theory to put the three of them in league.
Their theory is as fanciful as Intelligent Design, and just as flimsy.
101
@40 ding ding ding - Vendetta idea rings true, yes. In media vs media anyway.
She was acquitted of the theft charges though... *silver lining*
@50 HUH?? Ok, to each their own.. but... She's average/a hair above average at best. She's perhaps a 'handsome' woman. She looks like Tom Cruise's little sister,especially around the eyes. But the typical square-jawed soccer-girl hair and a cleft chin? Yuck/nothankyou.
(i.e. Ms. Kercher was way hotter)
@73: damn fine point. Except in the american justice system, there are no black bosses, or innocent blacks for that matter. (rib against US racism there, not black guys)
@75 Guede was found guilty after asking for a fasttrack trial. I think we may have found the killer.
@79 Yeah, seriously, the paranoia about cutting yerself would set in before hurting someone else would become an option "dude, this kknife HAHA this knife could kill my ass HAHA better put this shit downnnnn"
@81 it would be interesting to see if there's italian coverage of Clemmons' crimes... Seems she's coming off about as well as an adulterous muslim man might, over here...
She was acquitted of the theft charges though... *silver lining*
@50 HUH?? Ok, to each their own.. but... She's average/a hair above average at best. She's perhaps a 'handsome' woman. She looks like Tom Cruise's little sister,especially around the eyes. But the typical square-jawed soccer-girl hair and a cleft chin? Yuck/nothankyou.
(i.e. Ms. Kercher was way hotter)
@73: damn fine point. Except in the american justice system, there are no black bosses, or innocent blacks for that matter. (rib against US racism there, not black guys)
@75 Guede was found guilty after asking for a fasttrack trial. I think we may have found the killer.
@79 Yeah, seriously, the paranoia about cutting yerself would set in before hurting someone else would become an option "dude, this kknife HAHA this knife could kill my ass HAHA better put this shit downnnnn"
@81 it would be interesting to see if there's italian coverage of Clemmons' crimes... Seems she's coming off about as well as an adulterous muslim man might, over here...
102
She was a great learner at the CSPC. She'll have lots of time to learn exceptional kink in the pen.
103
The whole scenario is highly unlikely no matter where she's from. No history of violence. It just DOESN'T happen. It's crazy.
104
ok so wait a minute - there are some of you who think that the Knox family is at fault for "not reaching out to" the Kercher family. point taken. but HOLY SHIT think of THIS - say Amanda's family thinks she is innocent, and is faced with the rabid, international, globe-spanning mob who wants to put their daughter away for life. from their perspective, the Kercher family is part of that mob. damn, i'd keep my distance from them too.
105
94-
racism all around. every time i hear people say that Amanda accused her ex-boss of the crime because he was black, I cringe. That is a racist thing to say about white Amanda.
Also that Guede was implicated because he was black.
racism all around. every time i hear people say that Amanda accused her ex-boss of the crime because he was black, I cringe. That is a racist thing to say about white Amanda.
Also that Guede was implicated because he was black.
106
@ 103
"No history of violence. It just DOESN'T happen"
try googling 'No history of violence'
it clearly DOES happen.......all the time.
"No history of violence. It just DOESN'T happen"
try googling 'No history of violence'
it clearly DOES happen.......all the time.
107
@106, seconded.
+ I'm so sick of hearing bullshit like @54's i'm with fnarf. this is a normal middle class seattle college student. she smokes weed, she has premarital sex without guilt, she does yoga poses to calm herself down in a stressful situation. (Can you even read that italicized quote without putting it in a high-pitched sarcastic voice?)
I certainly won't proclaim to have any idea about exactly what happened, but what was her alibi supposed to be again? And at what point in the investigation did she start claiming that one?
+ I'm so sick of hearing bullshit like @54's i'm with fnarf. this is a normal middle class seattle college student. she smokes weed, she has premarital sex without guilt, she does yoga poses to calm herself down in a stressful situation. (Can you even read that italicized quote without putting it in a high-pitched sarcastic voice?)
I certainly won't proclaim to have any idea about exactly what happened, but what was her alibi supposed to be again? And at what point in the investigation did she start claiming that one?
108
@94 = fucking brillliant. Thank you! Move the whole murder scene to an off-campus apartment in the U District and who thinks she's innocent? Nobody, that's who.
109
No one seems to cath on that A)Amanda admitted to being VERY high and was known to bring strange men into the household B) Guede was a knowndealer C) There was the matter of money missing from Merideth's possesion. The likelyhood that some altercation popped off because of this is WAAAY more plausable than a sex fueled orgy.
110
prima di tutto esiste appello - quello che cretini scrivono non mi interessa. quello che ho esposto in cc csm e tdp come in ecj icc e icj vale molto di pił. i giudici, procs, sost procs e pm's mi conoscono - anche se loro sarebbero felici se io non ci fossi. vediamo cosa succede tra oecd osce ue e un sec council e icj app D vs I. tutt'altro sono speculazioni.
112
I'm an American. I have been following the case.
-
Her arrogance doesn't help her. She has a little devil inside her looking out those eyes.
-
Guilty.
-
Her arrogance doesn't help her. She has a little devil inside her looking out those eyes.
-
Guilty.
113
The arrogance she displays does not help her.
-
She has a little devil inside that looks out those eyes.
-
She's guilty. They cannot refute her complicity in the murder. She deserves life in prison.
-
She has a little devil inside that looks out those eyes.
-
She's guilty. They cannot refute her complicity in the murder. She deserves life in prison.
114
Her arrogance doesn't help her. She has a little devil inside her looking out those eyes.
Fine, she's an arrogant little she-devil. What, EXACTLY, did she do to deserve a 26 year jail sentence?
Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, that anyone can prove.
But...SHE'S AN ARROGANT SHE-DEVIL! JUST LOOK AT HER EYES!!!
(sigh)
Fine, she's an arrogant little she-devil. What, EXACTLY, did she do to deserve a 26 year jail sentence?
Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, that anyone can prove.
But...SHE'S AN ARROGANT SHE-DEVIL! JUST LOOK AT HER EYES!!!
(sigh)
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