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News & ArtsWednesday, December 2, 2009
Homo Better Late Than Never
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 8:18 AM
- I've Met Someone Else, Steven
Meredith Baxter—the mom on Family Ties—comes out as a "later-in-life" lesbian.
3
Is a later in life conversion the real deal? Don't get me wrong, I know quite a few hetero women who switched teams halfway through the game. But aren't gays supposed to know that they are gay from birth? Is this biology, or just a woman who got sick and tired of dealing with men and their bullshit for the past 40 years?
4
@2: It was said best on Chelsea Lately (I know, I know) last night: After three failed marriages, she's probably tired of men's shit and just wants a companion for her remaining days (may they be many).
5
As Dan has talked about before, male and female sexuality is different... Men seem to be more hard wired to be either gay or straight while women's sexuality seems to be more fluid. Women are more inclined to switch teams.
7
If Homosexual is something you innately "Are" how could it take a whole lifetime and three marriages and kids to realize what you "Are"?
Is she stupid and incredibly lacking in self-awareness?
A dupicious deceiving liar?
Or, is it just possible, that Homosexual is something you "Do"; that is is a behavior choice; that Meridith is in a lesbian phase that will last or not last who knows how long...
Is she stupid and incredibly lacking in self-awareness?
A dupicious deceiving liar?
Or, is it just possible, that Homosexual is something you "Do"; that is is a behavior choice; that Meridith is in a lesbian phase that will last or not last who knows how long...
8
To me it seems she probably couldn't face it, or she thought her career would be adversely affected. At this point, she really has nothing to lose by being true to herself.
10
Maybe it took her so long because she was trying very hard to be what society told her what to be. It is sad, but there are many gay people who have been through multiple marriages to opposite sex partners trying to be happy because that is how society told, even forced, them to act.
And remember, gays have not been treated well historically. There were, and are, reasons to try and deny it to yourself. Hopefully one day society will let people be themselves. That day just wasn't there during her early years, and really isn't all the way here now.
And remember, gays have not been treated well historically. There were, and are, reasons to try and deny it to yourself. Hopefully one day society will let people be themselves. That day just wasn't there during her early years, and really isn't all the way here now.
11
@9 - Because it's impossible for a gay man to read up on human sexuality or to have female friends?
I don't have a dick, but I understand how my husband's mind works pretty well.
I don't have a dick, but I understand how my husband's mind works pretty well.
12
It is difficult to understand what real love and sexual fulfillment are to someone who has never experienced it. Many of these women have genuine affection for their husbands, and assume that the reason the sex sucks is that there is something wrong with them. I know one woman, married 12 years with 2 kids, whose husband talked her into a 3-way with another woman (in a desperate attempt to spice things up), and she woke up the next day and said - "oh, I'm a lesbian!" That was it....it happens more often than people realize.
13
I don't know what her deal is, but I'll tell you this much. When you're bisexual, it can be hard to figure it out, and easy to ignore it. I think that would be even more true over the age of, say, 40.
I'm bi, but I have an easier time connecting with men, so it took me 20+ years to really recognize it. Women find me to be sort of abrasive, and I feel like i can be myself with men. If I were bi but had an easier time connecting with women instead, there's a good chance that it still would have taken me a while to recognize my bisexuality. As long as it's POSSIBLE to connect with the opposite sex, life/society really pushes you to do so, and doesn't encourage you to think very hard about any queer proclivities.
I'm guessing that this woman could probably describe herself as bi, but realizes that she connects much better with women and fits in better with lesbians in general, so it makes sense to identify as lesbian. Just a guess.
I'm bi, but I have an easier time connecting with men, so it took me 20+ years to really recognize it. Women find me to be sort of abrasive, and I feel like i can be myself with men. If I were bi but had an easier time connecting with women instead, there's a good chance that it still would have taken me a while to recognize my bisexuality. As long as it's POSSIBLE to connect with the opposite sex, life/society really pushes you to do so, and doesn't encourage you to think very hard about any queer proclivities.
I'm guessing that this woman could probably describe herself as bi, but realizes that she connects much better with women and fits in better with lesbians in general, so it makes sense to identify as lesbian. Just a guess.
14
I bet we been together for a million years,
And I bet we'll be together for a million more.
Oh, It's like I started breathing on the night we kissed,
And I can't remember what I ever did before.
What would we do baby, Without Us?
What would we do baby, Without Us?
And there ain't no nothing we can't love each other through.
What would we do baby, Without Us?
Sha la la la.
And I bet we'll be together for a million more.
Oh, It's like I started breathing on the night we kissed,
And I can't remember what I ever did before.
What would we do baby, Without Us?
What would we do baby, Without Us?
And there ain't no nothing we can't love each other through.
What would we do baby, Without Us?
Sha la la la.
15
11
maybe.
but it's also possible, and way more likely, and way more relevant to this thread for a gay man to be an arrogant opinionated clueless sack of shit excuse of a prick who doesn't know what the fuck he is spouting about.
maybe.
but it's also possible, and way more likely, and way more relevant to this thread for a gay man to be an arrogant opinionated clueless sack of shit excuse of a prick who doesn't know what the fuck he is spouting about.
16
All of your lame justifying and hypothising and excusing....
Defending the notion that Homosexuality is what people innately "Are" in the face of tons of real world evidence that people float into and out of homosexuality and homosexual behavior is just like the Creationist trying to put dinosaurs in a Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago.
The Truth stares you in the face people- accept it and quit making yourselves look stupid.
Defending the notion that Homosexuality is what people innately "Are" in the face of tons of real world evidence that people float into and out of homosexuality and homosexual behavior is just like the Creationist trying to put dinosaurs in a Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago.
The Truth stares you in the face people- accept it and quit making yourselves look stupid.
18
Well, I was not born a lesbian, I am probably bisexual, but seriously, guys are way too bizarre to try to cope with in a relationship. I feel bad for straight girls who have no choice.
Women are no walk in the park either at times, but the scales are more evenly balanced.
Women are no walk in the park either at times, but the scales are more evenly balanced.
19
12: You know, I wonder if that anecdote will make any straight guys reconsider their favorite fantasy... naaaah.
27
@16:
Let's try this experiment, assuming you're right-handed; reverse it if you're a lefty. I'll crack you hard in the nuts/ovaries with a ball pien hammer every time you use your right hand.
You'll quickly display left-handed behavior. Therefore, hand dominance is a choice.
Let's try this experiment, assuming you're right-handed; reverse it if you're a lefty. I'll crack you hard in the nuts/ovaries with a ball pien hammer every time you use your right hand.
You'll quickly display left-handed behavior. Therefore, hand dominance is a choice.
28
There's a continuum of human sexuality from 100% straight to 100% gay. I'd be willing to bet that if one is truly honest with oneself almost no one sits at the extremes.
29
Finally, my questions about Meredith Baxter's sexuality have answers. This has been keeping me up at night since the 80s.
Now, what about Skippy? I MUST KNOW.
Now, what about Skippy? I MUST KNOW.
30
@27
Interesting.
Let's carry it further:
Assume most people are righthanded.
Start creating societal reinforcements for impressionable children praising lefthandedness.
Present it as cool and hip.
Program MTV and shows targeting children and teens to relentlessly promote lefthandedness as positive and desireable.
Have all pop stars that children look up to do the same.
Every week have one or another hero of youth culture out themself as lefthanded.
Start clubs in all the schools- 'lefthanded is cool' clubs. Staff them with adult advisors to assure kids that "it is Totally Cool if they are lefthanded and damn their parents if they have a problem with that..."
Even let the author of the most popular book series ever for young adults after the fact share the tidbit that a beloved respected hero from the series was in fact, all along, lefthanded.
What will happen?
You will get an increasing number of kids who decide: "gee- they, too, are lefthanded!"
Or at least they will dabble in lefthandedness.
It's wierd, I know.
But crunch the numbers.
You'll see.
Interesting.
Let's carry it further:
Assume most people are righthanded.
Start creating societal reinforcements for impressionable children praising lefthandedness.
Present it as cool and hip.
Program MTV and shows targeting children and teens to relentlessly promote lefthandedness as positive and desireable.
Have all pop stars that children look up to do the same.
Every week have one or another hero of youth culture out themself as lefthanded.
Start clubs in all the schools- 'lefthanded is cool' clubs. Staff them with adult advisors to assure kids that "it is Totally Cool if they are lefthanded and damn their parents if they have a problem with that..."
Even let the author of the most popular book series ever for young adults after the fact share the tidbit that a beloved respected hero from the series was in fact, all along, lefthanded.
What will happen?
You will get an increasing number of kids who decide: "gee- they, too, are lefthanded!"
Or at least they will dabble in lefthandedness.
It's wierd, I know.
But crunch the numbers.
You'll see.
31
thank you 13! I went through the same thing. It took me longer to figure out that I like guys becuase I never had to fake liking women. It only took one failed marriage from me thank gosh...
Of course, that may not have anything to do with MBB; but it is nice to see someone express similar experiences.
Of course, that may not have anything to do with MBB; but it is nice to see someone express similar experiences.
32
30 has to be the dumbest post in the history of Slog. Maybe in the history of human kind. Please kill yourself before more stupidity escapes.
33
@30:
If you honestly think there's more societal reinforcement to be gay than to not be gay, then I can't even imagine how you're still alive after having taken so many drugs.
If you honestly think there's more societal reinforcement to be gay than to not be gay, then I can't even imagine how you're still alive after having taken so many drugs.
34
@30...people "dabble" with all kinds of things. So what? Getting fair treatment under the law is NOT the same thing as some pop culture icon making smoking or drinking or not eating appear glamorous.
There is no amount of reading Dan Savage, watching pop culture "celebrate" homosexuality, or anything else you list that makes me desire women over men.
I've watched and read about tons of people who smoke pot--I'm not interested. No amount of public endorsement will influence people who have NO INTEREST.
The point is--if you're that easily swayed, you were already leaning that way.
There is no amount of reading Dan Savage, watching pop culture "celebrate" homosexuality, or anything else you list that makes me desire women over men.
I've watched and read about tons of people who smoke pot--I'm not interested. No amount of public endorsement will influence people who have NO INTEREST.
The point is--if you're that easily swayed, you were already leaning that way.
37
Bridget Loves...Bernice?
(if you get this reference, you are OLD...Dan will pretend he doesn't get it.)
(if you get this reference, you are OLD...Dan will pretend he doesn't get it.)
38
@24,
I suspect you are actually @23, logged in under another name to provide the punchline to your own set up...
...but I laughed hard so you're forgiven.
I suspect you are actually @23, logged in under another name to provide the punchline to your own set up...
...but I laughed hard so you're forgiven.
39
@25- Congratulations, you almost got the joke.
@The Whole World- It simply doesn't matter if sexual orientation is innate or learned, fixed or fluid. It's completely irrelevant. People like to fuck, people fall in love, it's OK. In fact, it's fantastic when it works out.
@The Whole World- It simply doesn't matter if sexual orientation is innate or learned, fixed or fluid. It's completely irrelevant. People like to fuck, people fall in love, it's OK. In fact, it's fantastic when it works out.
40
Class- today's assignment- - -
Compare and Contrast:
Popular culture and media attitudes toward and encouragement of Homosexuality and "anything goes sexuality"
vs
Popular culture and media attitudes toward and encouragement of sexual responsibility and abstinence until marriage.
You get what you brainwash into your kids' brains.
Compare and Contrast:
Popular culture and media attitudes toward and encouragement of Homosexuality and "anything goes sexuality"
vs
Popular culture and media attitudes toward and encouragement of sexual responsibility and abstinence until marriage.
You get what you brainwash into your kids' brains.
42
Don't care; personal decision; good for her.
In more important news, the New York State Senate is FINALLY debating same sex marriage.
At least it's coming to a vote. And it just might pass.
http://www.towleroad.com/2009/12/watch-l…
In more important news, the New York State Senate is FINALLY debating same sex marriage.
At least it's coming to a vote. And it just might pass.
http://www.towleroad.com/2009/12/watch-l…
44
@39
It matters a lot.
Dan preaches that "being" gay is like being black, you can't rub it off.
Behavior that is "learned" and "fluid" gets treated a lot differently by society.
It matters a lot.
Dan preaches that "being" gay is like being black, you can't rub it off.
Behavior that is "learned" and "fluid" gets treated a lot differently by society.
45
40, So are you saying that while you find yourself attracted to your own sex, the only thing holding you from having gay sex is you learned it was bad? And you believe that others, who aren't as strong as you at resisting their homosexual urges, will act on them because of popular culture?
47
@40, I see what you're getting at. Wow, I'm amazed that MTV's influence extends all the way back to the Greeks. I knew MTV had been around for a long time, but I didn't know it had been around that long. It's amazing that popular culture has managed to singlehandedly invent and promote homosexuality because, hey, no one could possibly be wired to be attracted to members of the same sex, at least according to your bizarre logic.
So what part of popular culture do you think invented homosexuality? Elvis? Bell-bottoms? Walt Whitman?
So what part of popular culture do you think invented homosexuality? Elvis? Bell-bottoms? Walt Whitman?
48
At least she's not pulling the ol' "Divorce after 20 years, live on alimony & child support with my new 'friend' who did the same to her husband" routine. I've seen that one a number of times, and it's a crock. I'm fine with someone making changes in their lives, but don't ask the guy whose life you just destroyed with a 20 year lie to pay for it. If you need to "be yourself", support yourself.
All the more reason to support gay marriage. Alimony usually ends with re-marriage. Wonder how that will factor into decisions among same-sex couples to wed? Money has a funny way of warping love.
All the more reason to support gay marriage. Alimony usually ends with re-marriage. Wonder how that will factor into decisions among same-sex couples to wed? Money has a funny way of warping love.
49
@33,
Keith Richards is a homophobe?
@48,
So if the woman is lying to herself she still can't get anything? Not even child support? What about a woman who was lied to by her gay husband? Does she get double? Alimony and child support are based on cold legal calculations. There's a reason emotion isn't allowed to factor into it.
Keith Richards is a homophobe?
@48,
So if the woman is lying to herself she still can't get anything? Not even child support? What about a woman who was lied to by her gay husband? Does she get double? Alimony and child support are based on cold legal calculations. There's a reason emotion isn't allowed to factor into it.
51
47
The Greeks are a nice example.
Homosexual behavior was very common.
And accepted.
"Homosexuality" as defined by Dan was non-existent.
Your Greek homos played both sides of the street.
Wife, kids, family on the one hand; and a boy on the other.
But nary a peep for homosexual marriage.
Why?
There was no Christianity or Fundamentalists to stop them.
Because even they recognized that marriage is a social contract centered around having and providing for children.
Homosexuality?
That's just sex.
Don't muck it up with marriage.
The Greeks are a nice example.
Homosexual behavior was very common.
And accepted.
"Homosexuality" as defined by Dan was non-existent.
Your Greek homos played both sides of the street.
Wife, kids, family on the one hand; and a boy on the other.
But nary a peep for homosexual marriage.
Why?
There was no Christianity or Fundamentalists to stop them.
Because even they recognized that marriage is a social contract centered around having and providing for children.
Homosexuality?
That's just sex.
Don't muck it up with marriage.
52
51, So you're for banning heterosexual couples who can't have children from marrying? What about opposite sex couples who choose not to have children? Outlaw marriage unless it involves children?
If gay people getting married is going to muck up your marriage, then your marriage wasn't so great in the first place.
If gay people getting married is going to muck up your marriage, then your marriage wasn't so great in the first place.
53
@45
wow
I've reread @40 several times and didn't find any of that in there.
Perhaps you are referring to a different post?
Numbers and math are kind of hard, I know.
Or maybe it's a reading comprehension problem?
Eyesight failing??
Didn't your momma warn you that beating your meat would make you go blind...
wow
I've reread @40 several times and didn't find any of that in there.
Perhaps you are referring to a different post?
Numbers and math are kind of hard, I know.
Or maybe it's a reading comprehension problem?
Eyesight failing??
Didn't your momma warn you that beating your meat would make you go blind...
61
The whole "lefthanded vs. gay" posts above are very interesting, because there is evidence that both conditions are NOT genetic, but happen between conception and birth (homosexuality caused by mom's hormones, left-handedness by a possible lack of oxygen or nutrients resulting in some kind of trauma).
Sure, both hypotheses are not conclusively PROVEN beyond shadows of doubt, but it kind of makes one wonder: What OTHER conditions are out there that are not genetic, but may be brought on during pregnancy or delivery?
Sure, both hypotheses are not conclusively PROVEN beyond shadows of doubt, but it kind of makes one wonder: What OTHER conditions are out there that are not genetic, but may be brought on during pregnancy or delivery?
62
@49 Family & Marriage law is ALL about emotion & traditions.
"Equality for All" can have some unintended consequences.
As things currently stand, the middle aged woman who finally discovers she is gay after 20 years of marriage and then shacks up with her new girlfriend doesn't even have the option to marry her. When she gains that right, she'll have to decide if she wants to give up the subsidy (alimony)she receives from the man she jerked around all those years. It's something straight women have to contemplate when they start rebuilding their lives.
We can also look forward to those aforementioned divorces being reclassified as annulments, as there can be a serious contention that one of the parties entered the arrangement under fraudulent pretenses. Unless, of course, gayness is a choice. Which it's not, except, um, when it is.
Marriage is a legal status, and it isn't always pretty, especially when money is involved.
"Equality for All" can have some unintended consequences.
As things currently stand, the middle aged woman who finally discovers she is gay after 20 years of marriage and then shacks up with her new girlfriend doesn't even have the option to marry her. When she gains that right, she'll have to decide if she wants to give up the subsidy (alimony)she receives from the man she jerked around all those years. It's something straight women have to contemplate when they start rebuilding their lives.
We can also look forward to those aforementioned divorces being reclassified as annulments, as there can be a serious contention that one of the parties entered the arrangement under fraudulent pretenses. Unless, of course, gayness is a choice. Which it's not, except, um, when it is.
Marriage is a legal status, and it isn't always pretty, especially when money is involved.
64
@61...uh, several types of palsy. But don't tell any left-handed people in my family that we're trying to tie those things together.
Although, it would make a very interesting discussion with my two left-handed religious friends to discuss how their "condition" is similar to the gay "condition".
(In case anyone doubts, I mean that tongue in cheek. I don't consider either to be "conditions.")
Although, it would make a very interesting discussion with my two left-handed religious friends to discuss how their "condition" is similar to the gay "condition".
(In case anyone doubts, I mean that tongue in cheek. I don't consider either to be "conditions.")
65
@Mother Nature or whatever else you're calling yourself - you're trying painfully hard to make a point that has no relevance whatsoever. As dwight moody observed - it makes not one iota of difference whether gayness is innate or a choice.
I mean, I have no idea whether you came out of your mother's womb an asshole or if you're just doing it for kicks, but you still have the freedom to act on this inclination all over the comments section.
And as for marriage, you're right - in the time of the Greeks marriage WAS a matter of convenience, a union formed primarily for procreation and a better chance at survival. Fortunately a lot of things have changed. Nowadays, people get married for love, not because they're expected to when they'd rather be having sex with boys. Or maybe you have a different experience of marriage...
I mean, I have no idea whether you came out of your mother's womb an asshole or if you're just doing it for kicks, but you still have the freedom to act on this inclination all over the comments section.
And as for marriage, you're right - in the time of the Greeks marriage WAS a matter of convenience, a union formed primarily for procreation and a better chance at survival. Fortunately a lot of things have changed. Nowadays, people get married for love, not because they're expected to when they'd rather be having sex with boys. Or maybe you have a different experience of marriage...
66
#13, I love you.
You probably won't see this (I always get to these posts late), but every time you discuss bisexuality, you do it exactly right. You beat me to the punch every time, but I love it because you're always clear, articulate, and spot on. You say everything I'm thinking, and you say it better.
I came to understand myself later in life too. I was a girl who liked boys. I was also a freak who thought about my girlfriends in a "weird" way I couldn't even articulate. I was raised in a very religious, protected environment, and had no clue about homosexuality or anysexuality. But I knew one thing: keep my thoughts to myself. Keep everything to myself. Since I liked boys, it never occurred to me to think of my thoughts about my girlfriends as sexual. I just knew I was weird.
It wasn't until I was a grown woman in college that things clicked. Two girls came into the room, kissed, and bam. Everything fell into place and I finally knew who the hell I am.
You probably won't see this (I always get to these posts late), but every time you discuss bisexuality, you do it exactly right. You beat me to the punch every time, but I love it because you're always clear, articulate, and spot on. You say everything I'm thinking, and you say it better.
I came to understand myself later in life too. I was a girl who liked boys. I was also a freak who thought about my girlfriends in a "weird" way I couldn't even articulate. I was raised in a very religious, protected environment, and had no clue about homosexuality or anysexuality. But I knew one thing: keep my thoughts to myself. Keep everything to myself. Since I liked boys, it never occurred to me to think of my thoughts about my girlfriends as sexual. I just knew I was weird.
It wasn't until I was a grown woman in college that things clicked. Two girls came into the room, kissed, and bam. Everything fell into place and I finally knew who the hell I am.
67
Now if only I could convince Michael Gross that he really needs me to give him a mustache ride...
71
@66
Thanks! Glad to be the spokesbi.
I grew up in a totally accepting family, in this uber-liberal half of the state. Can't really imagine making sense of my sexuality in a more closed environment, ever, at all.
Thanks! Glad to be the spokesbi.
I grew up in a totally accepting family, in this uber-liberal half of the state. Can't really imagine making sense of my sexuality in a more closed environment, ever, at all.
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