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News & ArtsTuesday, December 1, 2009
Crime Prosecutors Won't Charge Woman Who Shot Man at Bus Stop
Posted by Dominic Holden on Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:50 PM
The King County Prosecutor's office issued this statement a few minutes ago:
King County Prosecutors are declining to file criminal charges against Sara Brereton, 31, for an April 25, 2009 incident in which Brereton shot Emmanuel Salters, 26, near the Metro bus stop located at 3rd Avenue and Seneca Street in downtown Seattle. Prosecutors are declining to file charges because Brereton acted in defense of herself, her children and her partner when she shot Salters once in the chest with her legally-licensed handgun as he advanced towards her.
Prosecutors say that under state law, people lawfully act in self defense when they reasonably believe that they are about to be harmed, and when they don't use more force than required. Prosecutors conclude that although Bereton "may have made obscene gestures, she did not initiate the physical confrontation. However, Mr. Salters did by charging at her."
[The King County Prosecutor's office has corrected part of its original story: Salters is 26 years old, not 48, as officials previously reported. The Slog post has been updated to reflect his age.]
Details appear after the jump.
The incident began in the early afternoon of April 25th when Brereton, her partner and her four children boarded a Metro bus that Salters was already riding. Brereton and her family sat in the front of the bus while Salters sat at the rear. At some point during the ride, Salters moved towards the front of the bus and stood next to Brereton, who was sitting. Salters began to sway back and forth, falling into Brereton. Brereton pushed Salters away and exclaimed "excuse me." This angered Salters. The two began to exchanges words, swearing at each other.After the bus traveled a short distance, Brereton and her family exited the bus at the 3rd & Seneca bus stop. Salters stayed on the bus. The bus closed its doors at the stop and advanced to the stoplight ahead. As Brereton and her family walked away, she and some of her family members made obscene gestures at Salters. Salters demanded the bus driver open the door so he could get off. Once the doors opened, Salters got off the bus and immediately strode towards Brereton, exclaiming, "what did you say? What did you say?" Brereton turned around and began yelling "stay away," "you better get away from me." At the same time Brereton displayed a licensed hand gun she was carrying. Salters was approximately 20 feet away from Brereton when she first displayed the gun.
Despite her warnings, Salters continued directly at her, getting to within 1 to 2 feet of Brereton. As he did so he began to spit at Brereton. Brereton fired her gun once, hitting Salters in the chest. Salters eventually fell to the ground near the bus stop. Brereton and her family remained at the scene until police arrived. She cooperated with the police, giving a statement about what had happened. Salters was taken to the hospital and treated for his wound. The shooting incident was captured on a METRO surveillance camera stationed at the 3rd & Seneca bus stop.
Multiple eye witnesses both on and off the bus were interviewed by the police. The witnesses gave statements consistent with what Brereton had reported and the video tape showed. Salters could not immediately be interviewed due to his medical condition. After his release from the hospital the police worked hard to locate Mr. Salters and take a statement from him. Taken in late September of 2009, Salter's statement about the incident leading up to the confrontation was not consistent with that of other witnesses. He also claimed that he was not charging towards Brereton when he got off the bus, but was running to catch another bus.
Prosecutors are declining to file a charge against Brereton because she acted in self defense. Under Washington state law a person acts in lawful self defense or the defense of others when:
— A person reasonably believes that she is about to be injured.
— When the force used is not more than necessary.
— The actor uses force as a reasonably prudent person would under the same or similar conditions as they appeared.
— All of the facts and circumstances known to the actor at the time of the incident are taken into consideration when judging whether they acted reasonably.Moreover, the following legal factors must be taken into account when making a self-defense determination:
— The person acting has no duty to retreat from a threat.
— A person may be mistaken in her belief that the threat was imminent and still be reasonable in her use of force to respond if that mistake was reasonable.
— The burden is on the State to prove the absence of self defense beyond a reasonable doubt.Charges will not be filed against Brereton because there is strong evidence in this case that she reasonably believed under the facts and circumstances known to her at the time that Salters was about to injure her. Salters was a stranger, who in an angry state, charged at her. He did not stop when she displayed her gun. Instead he continued to advance on her, getting within 1 to 2 feet. She waited to fire until the last possible moment before she could have been assaulted herself. Although she may have made obscene gestures, she did not initiate the physical confrontation. However, Mr. Salters did by charging at her.
Furthermore, Brereton did not use an unnecessary amount of force to defend herself. Brereton displayed the weapon to stop a perceived threat. Despite the display, Salters did not stop his advance. Under state law, Brereton has no duty to retreat. She can reasonably take into account her inability to use her gun to defend herself if Salters got close enough to physically assault her and be concerned that she could lose the gun in a struggle. As a result, her firing of the gun once to stop Salters was not an unreasonable amount of force under state law.
For these reasons criminal charges will not be filed against Ms. Brereton in this matter.
2
"a person lawfully acts in self defense when they resonable believe they are about to be harms"
Are you guys outsourcing your slogging to China or something?
Are you guys outsourcing your slogging to China or something?
3
What a stupid ruling. A man comes at you because you AND YOUR WHOLE FAMILY were being rude to him... sounds reasonable to me. Mind you, HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING but come at them and SPIT. So he gets SHOT in the CHEST. Wow. She should be in jail.
5
Skanks with guns. Just another sack of shit Seattle fatty, taking out her anger in public. Waiting for a bus? Her suburu must have been in the garage that day.
9
@3,
It certainly makes sense that he then lied about what he did, because he was acting completely reasonably. Shit, even HE knew he was out of line.
It certainly makes sense that he then lied about what he did, because he was acting completely reasonably. Shit, even HE knew he was out of line.
10
@3
Disagree. If you display a gun and someone continues advancing at you and your family in an enraged state, presumptions about his/her intent becomes valid. "He didn't do anything" would be more reasonable as an argument if he had stood there and simply screamed at them, not classy maybe, but not enough to justify a shooting by any means. Advancing on someone while angry fits:
'All of the facts and circumstances known to the actor at the time of the incident are taken into consideration when judging whether they acted reasonably'
and
A person reasonably believes that she is about to be injured
about as well as anything could.
Disagree. If you display a gun and someone continues advancing at you and your family in an enraged state, presumptions about his/her intent becomes valid. "He didn't do anything" would be more reasonable as an argument if he had stood there and simply screamed at them, not classy maybe, but not enough to justify a shooting by any means. Advancing on someone while angry fits:
'All of the facts and circumstances known to the actor at the time of the incident are taken into consideration when judging whether they acted reasonably'
and
A person reasonably believes that she is about to be injured
about as well as anything could.
12
She may be cleared legally, but what a lousy example (especially in front of her kids) of how to defuse a situation with a possibly drunk, high, or mentally ill person. And it seems obvious that knowing she had a gun on her gave her the confidence to act as brashly as she did.
14
That kid Emannuel that was shot is not 48, he is only 24. He lived upstairs for me and use to heckled the other tenants for weed- both before and after the incident. He was annoying but pretty harmless. Needless to say, he told me a completely different side of the story.
15
I'm really glad you guys followed up on this. When the story originally broke, it didn't sound too good for Sara Bereton. She had a previous brandishing incident (which is illegal in Washington State-it's called concealed carry for a reason). Also there was the issue of whether or not her claim of imminent harm would hold up in the investigation. And there were a lot of uninformed commenters like @3 who felt they were in a better place to judge whether Sara should defend herself and her family or not.
One puzzle: why hasn't there been any story about how this is a gay bashing gone bad (for the basher). You've got a couple of lesbian moms out with their kids when some ASSHOLE (I wouldn't be surprised if the bus in question was the 358) starts hassling them. Sara and her family did the right thing, they got off the bus. Then this ASSHOLE decides to follow them and doesn't get the message when confronted with a gun. Salter got what he deserved. Kudos to Sara for refusing to be a victim.
One puzzle: why hasn't there been any story about how this is a gay bashing gone bad (for the basher). You've got a couple of lesbian moms out with their kids when some ASSHOLE (I wouldn't be surprised if the bus in question was the 358) starts hassling them. Sara and her family did the right thing, they got off the bus. Then this ASSHOLE decides to follow them and doesn't get the message when confronted with a gun. Salter got what he deserved. Kudos to Sara for refusing to be a victim.
16
I was wondering whatever happened with this. Good for her for protecting herself and her family from the typical crackheads and other trash who run amok on metro buses. Argument or not, it is no surprise that charging at somebody and their children while yelling threats and epithets may result in lethal force in self defense.
17
@12,
I mostly agree with you. However, I'm certain that mentally ill/drunk/high people, especially those who have taken over large parts of downtown and Belltown, are still capable of acting rationally. I have never seen them hassle a thick-necked guy who looks like he's suffering from a nasty case of 'roid rage. They always go after women, men with slight builds, seniors, and even children.
This guy picked on two women and four children because he assumed they couldn't/wouldn't fight back. He assumed wrong. I can't say I have a lot of sympathy for him.
And I've been the target of that specific kind of harassment: intentionally bumping into people on the bus. The guy was looking for a confrontation, one he assumed he would win.
I mostly agree with you. However, I'm certain that mentally ill/drunk/high people, especially those who have taken over large parts of downtown and Belltown, are still capable of acting rationally. I have never seen them hassle a thick-necked guy who looks like he's suffering from a nasty case of 'roid rage. They always go after women, men with slight builds, seniors, and even children.
This guy picked on two women and four children because he assumed they couldn't/wouldn't fight back. He assumed wrong. I can't say I have a lot of sympathy for him.
And I've been the target of that specific kind of harassment: intentionally bumping into people on the bus. The guy was looking for a confrontation, one he assumed he would win.
18
This is an example of what can happen when people carry guns. She acted like an asshole, knowing that if he retaliated she would always have the last word, and could claim self-defense.
Now imagine a whole #7 (or pick your own route) bus full of people who are carrying.
Now imagine a whole #7 (or pick your own route) bus full of people who are carrying.
19
I wonder if she would be prosecuted if the guy had died from the gunshot wound?
You'd think she could at least fire a warning shot in the air first or something. Maybe the guy didn't even recognize it as a gun, or thought it was fake?
Troubling, to say the least.
You'd think she could at least fire a warning shot in the air first or something. Maybe the guy didn't even recognize it as a gun, or thought it was fake?
Troubling, to say the least.
21
@17, that's why I usually stand on public transit :)
Shitty situation all around. He could easily have been killed, and even though he wasn't, she and her family spent 7 months hanging fire wondering whether their lives would be turned upside down by a trial and possible conviction/jail time (lost jobs, unpaid mortgage, broken relationship, etc.). Armed or not, such confrontations (and I realized that his falling on her was likely deliberate heckling and she and partner likely a same-sex couple) are to be avoided by any available strategy, with deadly force used only as a true last resort.
Coming out on top the way she did it isn't really winning.
Shitty situation all around. He could easily have been killed, and even though he wasn't, she and her family spent 7 months hanging fire wondering whether their lives would be turned upside down by a trial and possible conviction/jail time (lost jobs, unpaid mortgage, broken relationship, etc.). Armed or not, such confrontations (and I realized that his falling on her was likely deliberate heckling and she and partner likely a same-sex couple) are to be avoided by any available strategy, with deadly force used only as a true last resort.
Coming out on top the way she did it isn't really winning.
22
I think she acted within the law and got the outcome she wanted and he deserved. That said, lady, SHUT THE FUCK UP when being harrassed on the bus with your partner and kids next to you. Nothing good ever comes with responding to a threat, even if it's only verbally responding. Just move away and be quiet. I feel bad for the kids, having to be present while their parent gets in arguments with psychos. And yeah, the fact that she's flashing her gun (and getting into verbal sparring matches) tells me that she'd rather display the chip on her shoulder than get her family out of a tense situation.
23
I wonder how much training she underwent. I know it is alot more than 99.98% of us have with guns. I'm surprised no one has picked up on the gaybashing. She would not have been prosecuted had he died. It would still be self-defense based upon all the eyewitness statements and the bus tape. You only show a gun when you are willing to kill someone with it. That is universally understood. Warning shot in the air releases a bullet that could land anywhere. Stupid move since you have to take your pistol off of your target, losing precious time. She handled the situation perfectly, protecting her wife and kids.
24
Could have been killed, sadly he
lived. Would have probably kept the bus bums from bothering humans for at least a year.
Of course, as a bed wetting, passive-aggressive liberal, I have no idea on what position I should take on gun-toting lesbians.
lived. Would have probably kept the bus bums from bothering humans for at least a year.
Of course, as a bed wetting, passive-aggressive liberal, I have no idea on what position I should take on gun-toting lesbians.
25
@19 You watch too many movies. Firing a gun into the air is not only illegal, it's more reckless than pointing it at someone because you have no control over where the bullet goes after it leaves the gun. "warning shots" do not exist in reality.
26
19@ Really? Fire a shot into the air? And what happens when that bullet hits some poor sod down the street? The display of the gun should have been enough warning. This guy was lucky to be left alive to lie about what happened later. If it had been me, it would have benn 2 in the chest and 1 in the head.
27
I'm always amazed at how quickly humans will escalate to deadly force when given the opportunity/tools, and the mental hoops we'll jump through to excuse it after the fact.
28
@18 I imagine it would be a whole lot quieter and people wouldn't be getting into each other business. Sounds nice actually.
29
A responsible gun owner does not deliberately escalate a volatile situation then introduce deadly force to back them up. To the best of their ability a responsible gun owner diffuses the situation, holds their temper or, simply, walks away, especially when your actions may increase the danger to your family. Period.
Having deadly force at your command is a responsibility that should NEVER be taken lightly.
The law failed to hold this gun owner responsible for her part in escalating the situation before she elected to introduce deadly force to back her up.
Too many irresponsible people use guns as their "steel courage" to back up their stupid and cowardly behavior as assholes and bullies.
Using the adolescent argument that "they started it" does not excuse your behavior, especially when your choices and actions will very likely result in the loss of another human being's life.
This gun owner relied on a gun to back up her and her family's bad behavior in response to another person's bad behavior.
As a parent you could not set a worse example about how to handle assholes.
Having deadly force at your command is a responsibility that should NEVER be taken lightly.
The law failed to hold this gun owner responsible for her part in escalating the situation before she elected to introduce deadly force to back her up.
Too many irresponsible people use guns as their "steel courage" to back up their stupid and cowardly behavior as assholes and bullies.
Using the adolescent argument that "they started it" does not excuse your behavior, especially when your choices and actions will very likely result in the loss of another human being's life.
This gun owner relied on a gun to back up her and her family's bad behavior in response to another person's bad behavior.
As a parent you could not set a worse example about how to handle assholes.
30
Rotten666, you have far more faith in humanity's capacity for self-control than I.
@20 may be an unregistered troll(-ish) comment, but has a good point. What if homeboy was packing himself? Now you have an escalated gun battle between two assholes on a city street. What a grand vision.
@20 may be an unregistered troll(-ish) comment, but has a good point. What if homeboy was packing himself? Now you have an escalated gun battle between two assholes on a city street. What a grand vision.
31
Lesson to hot-heads: if you don't learn to control your temper, you're putting others in danger, and by putting others in danger, you're putting yourself in danger. If someone merely pushing your buttons (e.g., speaking rudely to you, taunting you, etc.) is likely to result in you flying into a rage and charging at that person, you'd best get rid of those buttons before someone who is ready, willing, and able to defend him- or herself pushes your buttons.
Regardless of how rude Ms. Brenton was, what she said to Mr. Salters, and what gestures she and her family used toward him, his charging them in an angry and threatening manner was not warranted. She was right to suspect that he was likely to harm her and her family when he came after them, and she was right to feel confident that they were in imminent danger when he continued to advance after she aimed her weapon at him.
Commenters here who are defending this man for presenting physical danger to another person based on words and gestures exchanged need to take a step back and consider what they're advocating. Urgutha (@19): a warning shot fired into the air would have put Ms. Brenton in a position less likely to be able to defend herself and her family, even if only for a second. Why should she have taken such risk? Don't you suppose that pulling out a gun and aiming it at the assailant was adequate warning of her intent to defend herself from him with that gun?
Regardless of how rude Ms. Brenton was, what she said to Mr. Salters, and what gestures she and her family used toward him, his charging them in an angry and threatening manner was not warranted. She was right to suspect that he was likely to harm her and her family when he came after them, and she was right to feel confident that they were in imminent danger when he continued to advance after she aimed her weapon at him.
Commenters here who are defending this man for presenting physical danger to another person based on words and gestures exchanged need to take a step back and consider what they're advocating. Urgutha (@19): a warning shot fired into the air would have put Ms. Brenton in a position less likely to be able to defend herself and her family, even if only for a second. Why should she have taken such risk? Don't you suppose that pulling out a gun and aiming it at the assailant was adequate warning of her intent to defend herself from him with that gun?
32
One Observation from the Bleachers:
Would the commentators here be rushing to the defense of this gun owner if the shooter had been a man with his family who behaved in the same manner toward an asshole on the bus then introduced the gun to shoot a woman who responded in the same, angry manner as the man who was shot in this story?
If you would not hold the same position as you do now, your sense of justice is faulty at best, and your argument in her defense reveals your bias.
Would the commentators here be rushing to the defense of this gun owner if the shooter had been a man with his family who behaved in the same manner toward an asshole on the bus then introduced the gun to shoot a woman who responded in the same, angry manner as the man who was shot in this story?
If you would not hold the same position as you do now, your sense of justice is faulty at best, and your argument in her defense reveals your bias.
35
@19,
Fire a warning shot in the air? Are you fucking nuts? You ever hear of gravity? You know, what goes up must come down. That bullet you fire into the air comes back down. In a crowded city, that falling bullet might hit someone. And yes, a falling bullet can kill.
I'm not saying she acted perfectly. But firing in the air would have been really really stupid, and could have injured or killed some innocent bystander.
Fire a warning shot in the air? Are you fucking nuts? You ever hear of gravity? You know, what goes up must come down. That bullet you fire into the air comes back down. In a crowded city, that falling bullet might hit someone. And yes, a falling bullet can kill.
I'm not saying she acted perfectly. But firing in the air would have been really really stupid, and could have injured or killed some innocent bystander.
36
As long as we're following up on this, was the Metro driver reprimanded? I've been told by multiple drivers that Metro has policies against letting people on or off in between stops. That Salters was exiting in an attempt to continue the altercation is additionally troublesome.
While the bus driver's primary responsibility is the proper operation of the vehicle, there is an element of rider safety there and it would seem that letting Salters off at the light was doubly wrong.
While the bus driver's primary responsibility is the proper operation of the vehicle, there is an element of rider safety there and it would seem that letting Salters off at the light was doubly wrong.
37
@3 - "HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING but come at them and SPIT. So he gets SHOT in the CHEST. Wow. She should be in jail."
You obviously don't realize that spitting at someone is assault with a deadly weapon and police will arrest you if you spit at soemone
You obviously don't realize that spitting at someone is assault with a deadly weapon and police will arrest you if you spit at soemone
38
this is bullshit, that psychopath lady should be in prison.
@37, spitting is 3rd degree assault. shooting someone in the chest is attempted murder.
@37, spitting is 3rd degree assault. shooting someone in the chest is attempted murder.
39
I've got to say, the woman acted within her rights, but it certainly sounds like she also escalated the situation. It's entirely possible she might have behaved in a much less confrontational manner if she didn't have a gun.
40
I would like to think that Mr. Salters learned a lesson here -- if you're an angry, aggressive douchebag who is chasing after someone to continue a confrontation, you might get shot.
It's a lesson that most people learn early on.
It's a lesson that most people learn early on.
41
@37 - it's assault. It's not battery or "with a deadly weapon".
Just because you have rights doesn't mean it's a good idea to exercise them.
Just because you have rights doesn't mean it's a good idea to exercise them.
42
RE: Firing a gun in the air
Just my personal anecdote, but when I was a kid, my dad took me duck hunting every year, and whenever the ducks came close and everyone started firing, a couple seconds later, little showers of pellets from the missed shots would rain down on us because there were lots of hunters all in their own little groups and they liked to try getting the birds in crossfires. Not only did the rain of pellets not not kill any of us, it didn't even sting.
Perhaps a bullet from a pistol would come down harder than shotgun pellets... doubtful though, as you'd need a .44 for the bullet to be bigger than a small stone (and if that lady fired a .44, that guy would be dead) and it's not like shots from a pistol fly up miles and miles before coming down. They probably go a couple hundred feet, tops.
Personally, I think she should have just used a taser/mace/some other non-lethal defense, but I'm just sayin about the air shots is all...
Just my personal anecdote, but when I was a kid, my dad took me duck hunting every year, and whenever the ducks came close and everyone started firing, a couple seconds later, little showers of pellets from the missed shots would rain down on us because there were lots of hunters all in their own little groups and they liked to try getting the birds in crossfires. Not only did the rain of pellets not not kill any of us, it didn't even sting.
Perhaps a bullet from a pistol would come down harder than shotgun pellets... doubtful though, as you'd need a .44 for the bullet to be bigger than a small stone (and if that lady fired a .44, that guy would be dead) and it's not like shots from a pistol fly up miles and miles before coming down. They probably go a couple hundred feet, tops.
Personally, I think she should have just used a taser/mace/some other non-lethal defense, but I'm just sayin about the air shots is all...
43
@19, I wouldn't recommend firing a shot into the air outside the front door of the FBI Field Office. Even on a weekend.
44
@42, it's a lot more dangerous than that. A typical 9mm cartridge will fire at between 1000 and 1200 feet per second. We're talking about 3 or 4 hundred foot/pounds of energy. That's going to go a hell of a lot further than a couple of hundred feet. Even a lowly .22 can be lethal almost a mile away. Also, the shot was fired at 3rd and Seneca. That corner is surrounded by tall buildings. If the shooter didn't fire straight up in the air, there's a good chance of her shot going right through the window of any of the office buildings around the bus stop.
45
@42, it's a lot more dangerous than that. A typical 9mm cartridge will fire at between 1000 and 1200 feet per second. We're talking about 3 or 4 hundred foot/pounds of energy. That's going to go a hell of a lot further than a couple of hundred feet. Even a lowly .22 can be lethal almost a mile away. Also, the shot was fired at 3rd and Seneca. That corner is surrounded by tall buildings. If the shooter didn't fire straight up in the air, there's a good chance of her shot going right through the window of any of the office buildings around the bus stop.
46
Keshmeshi@17 makes a very good point re "crazies", I think.
Apparently, she was within her legal rights, and if somone had to get hurt, it surely happened to the right guy. But, if you are carrying a pistol, you
simply don't flip someone off, especially someone a little crazy. You shouldn't escalate if the potential consequences of things getting out of hand are so asymmetric in your favor.
Maybe it wasn't the shooter who did the flipping off, but someone in her family, the story wasn't clear.
Apparently, she was within her legal rights, and if somone had to get hurt, it surely happened to the right guy. But, if you are carrying a pistol, you
simply don't flip someone off, especially someone a little crazy. You shouldn't escalate if the potential consequences of things getting out of hand are so asymmetric in your favor.
Maybe it wasn't the shooter who did the flipping off, but someone in her family, the story wasn't clear.
47
Moral of the story: on those particular busses, and at that particular intersection, you are going to encounter a huge number of trashy people. Avoid.
Reasonable people try to de-escalate a confrontation. This woman and her family don't seem entirely reasonable, but that's beside the point. Once the confrontation started, this guy started acting like a drugged-out, hostile maniac. After rushing her, he's lucky she had the self control to stop pulling the trigger at one.
Side note, and I'm not advocating vigilante justice or widespread gun-totin', but it seems like society would be better off if the guy hadn't survived his injuries... If he initiates violence in the future, it would be better for all of us if he'd died that day.
Reasonable people try to de-escalate a confrontation. This woman and her family don't seem entirely reasonable, but that's beside the point. Once the confrontation started, this guy started acting like a drugged-out, hostile maniac. After rushing her, he's lucky she had the self control to stop pulling the trigger at one.
Side note, and I'm not advocating vigilante justice or widespread gun-totin', but it seems like society would be better off if the guy hadn't survived his injuries... If he initiates violence in the future, it would be better for all of us if he'd died that day.
48
So, let me get this straight, a pervert on a bus goes up to a woman and purposely shoves his ass or crotch in her face, and she's supposed to just stand there and tolerate it? She's not supposed to shove him out of her face or tell him to get away from her? Really? When she and her family gets off the bus and the same pervy homophobe chases after them while shouting homophobic slurs, the same woman isn't supposed to defend herself or her family? Really? Really? Mr. Salter was lucky to survive. He's also lucky not to be in jail himself. He doesn't sound bright enough to learn anything, but maybe the next time he'll keep his skanky ass or crotch out of his fellow bus riders' faces and remember that acting like an aggressive douche bag could get himself killed. I doubt it.....but hey, maybe he'll smarten up.
49
@41 " Just because you have rights doesn't mean it's a good idea to exercise them. "
This is the single stupidest thing I have heard on the Internet so far. you win sir.
This is the single stupidest thing I have heard on the Internet so far. you win sir.
50
@ 18 "This is an example of what can happen when people carry guns. She acted like an asshole, knowing that if he retaliated she would always have the last word, and could claim self-defense.
Now imagine a whole #7 (or pick your own route) bus full of people who are carrying."
No, HE acted like an asshole, thinking that if she retaliated he could easily take her in a physical fight. He'd probably pulled this kind of shit with people before and being a bully had always worked out for him so he didn't think he was risking anything.
I can imagine a bus full of people with guns. Everyone is polite and bullies don't away with picking on people.
Now imagine a whole #7 (or pick your own route) bus full of people who are carrying."
No, HE acted like an asshole, thinking that if she retaliated he could easily take her in a physical fight. He'd probably pulled this kind of shit with people before and being a bully had always worked out for him so he didn't think he was risking anything.
I can imagine a bus full of people with guns. Everyone is polite and bullies don't away with picking on people.
51
I do think the state needs to revoke her license to carry. If this is her second gun-flashing incident, and first one where a shooting resulting, she seems to be an outlier. Most people will go their entire adult life without resorting to a concealed weapon. Heck, most cops don't draw in their career, from what I understand.
Yet this woman has had to resort to her gun twice now? And in the second incident, she apparently was not demonstrating good judgment.
So, no jail, okay. But no more Clint Eastwood bullshit either. Let her carry mace.
Yet this woman has had to resort to her gun twice now? And in the second incident, she apparently was not demonstrating good judgment.
So, no jail, okay. But no more Clint Eastwood bullshit either. Let her carry mace.
52
I don't think anyone has commented yet on the really lax self-defense laws in WA state. Apparently, unlike most states, WA has no requirement that citizens attempt to flee before using deadly force. It also appears that this state does not require the defensive force to match the offensive force. Thus we have instances of people unnecessarily blasting away with guns and successfully claiming self defense. I remember a news report a few years ago of a guy successfully claiming self-defense after shooting a robber in the back after the robber had left the guy's house.
I'm pretty sure that in other states, shooting someone for attempted spitting would land the shooter in jail.
I'm pretty sure that in other states, shooting someone for attempted spitting would land the shooter in jail.
53
well, we pretty much have most of the laws from our Wild West days, just like when we banned guns in public parks and public places in cities.
Did they ever rescind the ones about spitting in public?
Did they ever rescind the ones about spitting in public?
54
@50 "I can imagine a bus full of people with guns. Everyone is polite and bullies don't away with picking on people."
I don't understand this logic. Wouldn't that make it worse? Does the fact that cops have guns keep criminals from shooting at cops?
This is how I see it. Bully picks on person. Person complains. So Bully shoots person. Person's friend then shoots Bully. Bully's friend then shoots person's friend. And so on.
I don't understand this logic. Wouldn't that make it worse? Does the fact that cops have guns keep criminals from shooting at cops?
This is how I see it. Bully picks on person. Person complains. So Bully shoots person. Person's friend then shoots Bully. Bully's friend then shoots person's friend. And so on.
55
@42 if you fire a bullet into the air it is more than capable of killing on it's return trip. Pellets and bullets are not comparable because they fly through the air differently, as you probably know.
56
Thank you, yucca flower, for the reminder that Mr. Asshole STARTED IT. Why are people acting like he was just quietly minding his own business until SHE started insulting HIM? If she'd been unarmed and hadn't been afraid & treated him like he deserved anyway, she'd probably have gotten punched in the face for her bravery. Instead, because she had a gun she was probably not afraid of this asshole like he expected she would be. And she showed it to him before using it, to give him a chance to back down, instead of just plugging him.
If this woman was my mom I would be so fuckin' proud.
If this woman was my mom I would be so fuckin' proud.
57
I think this guy should have died. I'm amazed that a bunch of you feel she was in the wrong for defending herself.
If you attack someone you deserve what you get. If you are attacked you deserve the right to shoot that punk.
Why should a victim put themselves at risk to help minimize the harm that might come to an aggressor? What kind of system is that?
If you attack someone you deserve what you get. If you are attacked you deserve the right to shoot that punk.
Why should a victim put themselves at risk to help minimize the harm that might come to an aggressor? What kind of system is that?
59
Brereton's fine, but most of the people here defending her are grade A idiots.
Lawl. Right after you crane kicked his head off? From your still-moving motorcycle? We're all very impressed at how lethal you are. Do you even read what you write? Jesus.
You're also an idiot. Every non-idiot over the age of two understands the difference between 'allowed' and 'wise'. I have the right to tell my wife she's put on a lot of weight since we got married. It's not a good idea to exercise that right. See how that works?
If it had been me, it would have benn 2 in the chest and 1 in the head.
Lawl. Right after you crane kicked his head off? From your still-moving motorcycle? We're all very impressed at how lethal you are. Do you even read what you write? Jesus.
@41 " Just because you have rights doesn't mean it's a good idea to exercise them. "
This is the single stupidest thing I have heard on the Internet so far. you win sir.
You're also an idiot. Every non-idiot over the age of two understands the difference between 'allowed' and 'wise'. I have the right to tell my wife she's put on a lot of weight since we got married. It's not a good idea to exercise that right. See how that works?
60
@49- Exactly. That's why I spend every single moment I'm awake talking. Because I have the right to free speech, and I need to exercise it all the time. To do otherwise would be stupid.
61
@49 - and if you walk onto my lawn to let your dog poop, I can shoot you.
Hmm.
You were saying?
Heck, for all I know it's an attack poodle and the bag in your pocket is a weapon.
You feel better now?
... didn't think so.
Hmm.
You were saying?
Heck, for all I know it's an attack poodle and the bag in your pocket is a weapon.
You feel better now?
... didn't think so.
62
meanie @49: You know, Will has on occasion said some stupid things on the web, but his comment @42 wasn't one of them. What he's advocating is also known as "being a grown up."
63
Sara had some different anger management options open to her, and the fact that she couldn't resist egging the asshole on once she was off the bus proves it. Remember, she had the kids there, and as a parent her job is to teach the kids that street fights are to be avoided: first choice is to get the heck away from the situation. Continuing to engage is to invite trouble, to bring you down to the asshole's level, etc. Isn't that how a parent should want their child to react?
Sure you use a gun when forced to, but try not to be forced to! Clear the area. Talk later with the kids about how we can make rational choices even when we are angry. Once they were safe off the bus, they could have moved on without the gestures, etc., even if they were angry and their hearts were racing. Having the gun with her may well have given her the courage to take the ill-advised step of escalating the conflict. It's a hella life-lesson for the kids. The one "within her rights" doesn't always walk away from these things. What if Emmanuel had also had a gun? What if he had a couple of friends to back him up?
Sure you use a gun when forced to, but try not to be forced to! Clear the area. Talk later with the kids about how we can make rational choices even when we are angry. Once they were safe off the bus, they could have moved on without the gestures, etc., even if they were angry and their hearts were racing. Having the gun with her may well have given her the courage to take the ill-advised step of escalating the conflict. It's a hella life-lesson for the kids. The one "within her rights" doesn't always walk away from these things. What if Emmanuel had also had a gun? What if he had a couple of friends to back him up?
64
@44/45, 55,
I'll concede that it's a bad idea to shoot up in the air. It's possible it could hit someone in a building or something, although even that's really remote.
Still... kill or even injure someone on the way down? The bullet would have lost it's original muzzle velocity and would simply be traveling at terminal velocity. It probably wouldn't even be spinning/rifling anymore, just tumbling, and unless it's a huge calibre, it just doesn't have the mass to really hurt someone.
But whatever... the moral of the story is: This chick needs to think before she acts.
I'll concede that it's a bad idea to shoot up in the air. It's possible it could hit someone in a building or something, although even that's really remote.
Still... kill or even injure someone on the way down? The bullet would have lost it's original muzzle velocity and would simply be traveling at terminal velocity. It probably wouldn't even be spinning/rifling anymore, just tumbling, and unless it's a huge calibre, it just doesn't have the mass to really hurt someone.
But whatever... the moral of the story is: This chick needs to think before she acts.
65
@64 bullets are ballistic! The only thing slowing them down is air friction, not gravity. This should have been covered in your physics class. In reality, there are tons of news stories about people being killed by bullets fired up. And in entertainment, there is a Mythbusters episode too.
66
I'm a good friend of Sara's, and she's a great lady... I can't believe people are defending the asshole who started all this shit, a bunch of woman-hating men no doubt.
67
Gun toting, perpetually angry white lesbians vs. drug addled black psychopaths; all from the comfort of your Seattle bus seat. Maybe this can be Columbia City's official sport?
69
@66 Even women who have been physically threatened by men can realize that you're not in the right when you escalate a situation. The urge to hurt those who have wronged you is strong, but it does not need to be indulged. A potentially lethal gunshot wound from a civilian is not some "lesson" from civilization. It's just another act of violence.
70
@65,
But a bullet that traveled up as far up as it could go, reached a peak arc, then rolled over and started falling, then killed someone on its way down?
Yeah, people can definitely be killed by a bullet fired upwards and currently traveling upwards, but once it has used up its muzzle velocity a bullet only has gravity, not ballistics anymore, unless you glue fins on that bitch.
I saw the mythbusters episode of the "penny dropped off the Empire State Building" and it wasn't lethal, even when they fired a penny out of a gun straight down, it still wasn't (although a bullet was), but try taking a bullet, go ahead and give it spin, and drop it at terminal velocity, not muzzle velocity, and see if it kills anyone... I just don't buy it. It'll stop spinning and start tumbling (and lose killing speed) way too fast. Bullets aren't like darts or arrows... the rifling spins them out of the barrel, but those grooves are tiny. Way too small for the wind to keep them rifled.
Has anyone ever dropped a bullet from a skyscraper to see if it has lethal velocity? I'd love to see the results and see if I'm right or full of shit.
But a bullet that traveled up as far up as it could go, reached a peak arc, then rolled over and started falling, then killed someone on its way down?
Yeah, people can definitely be killed by a bullet fired upwards and currently traveling upwards, but once it has used up its muzzle velocity a bullet only has gravity, not ballistics anymore, unless you glue fins on that bitch.
I saw the mythbusters episode of the "penny dropped off the Empire State Building" and it wasn't lethal, even when they fired a penny out of a gun straight down, it still wasn't (although a bullet was), but try taking a bullet, go ahead and give it spin, and drop it at terminal velocity, not muzzle velocity, and see if it kills anyone... I just don't buy it. It'll stop spinning and start tumbling (and lose killing speed) way too fast. Bullets aren't like darts or arrows... the rifling spins them out of the barrel, but those grooves are tiny. Way too small for the wind to keep them rifled.
Has anyone ever dropped a bullet from a skyscraper to see if it has lethal velocity? I'd love to see the results and see if I'm right or full of shit.
71
Urgutha:
Shotgun pellets just aren't bullets. Apples and oranges.
Just a little internet noodling found me this about the old timey M1911 Colt .45 semi-auto G.I. handgun:
Penetrates 4 inches of white pine at 250 yards. Range with barrel elevated 30 degrees is 1,600 yards (aka 4,800 feet, not quite a mile, but getting there.)
Most folks' warning shots/emotional displays aren't purely vertical, or even close. So my above examples, which don't quite apply to your theoretical warning shot, are extreme, but the reality is somewhere between the data above and your harmless penny.
There is a Mythbusters that applies most specifically to all of this, but I don't remember the precise results. They did both 9mm and an M-1 Garand .30-06.
What you're overlooking is the armor quality of the human skull and skin. It's pretty much nil. My fuzzy memory of the Mythbusters bullets-straight-up test is that some of the bullets came back down and buried themselves 6 or 8 inches into the lakebed.
Don't worry about the old timey .45 vs. some other, smaller modern pistol bullet. They're all in the same general ballpark, nothing like shotgun pellets and their peculiar muzzle velocity/mass/aero issues.
Shotgun pellets just aren't bullets. Apples and oranges.
Just a little internet noodling found me this about the old timey M1911 Colt .45 semi-auto G.I. handgun:
Penetrates 4 inches of white pine at 250 yards. Range with barrel elevated 30 degrees is 1,600 yards (aka 4,800 feet, not quite a mile, but getting there.)
Most folks' warning shots/emotional displays aren't purely vertical, or even close. So my above examples, which don't quite apply to your theoretical warning shot, are extreme, but the reality is somewhere between the data above and your harmless penny.
There is a Mythbusters that applies most specifically to all of this, but I don't remember the precise results. They did both 9mm and an M-1 Garand .30-06.
What you're overlooking is the armor quality of the human skull and skin. It's pretty much nil. My fuzzy memory of the Mythbusters bullets-straight-up test is that some of the bullets came back down and buried themselves 6 or 8 inches into the lakebed.
Don't worry about the old timey .45 vs. some other, smaller modern pistol bullet. They're all in the same general ballpark, nothing like shotgun pellets and their peculiar muzzle velocity/mass/aero issues.
72
@71,
well.. ok... sheesh...
It seems weird to me that a bullet from any gun - pistol OR rifle - would turn around and actually be effective on the downward ride but I didn't do any internet searches and the only info I have is my own, prone-to-massive-error noodle and half-assed military memories. Although, I'd match up the human skull against a pound (or two, or three) of ground beef anyday for superior armor protection.
That said, I retract my statement that the woman should have fired a warning shot in the air first. It's an unreliable, dangerous, chaotic move that's prone to killing an innocent bystander (unless someone proves me otherwise).
I'll say this much... Holy shit! An old-school .45 ACP can hit someone at 1,600 yards with the barrel elevated 30 degrees?!? That POS could barely hit someone point blank, firing the entire mag with the barrel leveled directly at the target's chest. At least, that was my experience with it. But, science is science... :)
well.. ok... sheesh...
It seems weird to me that a bullet from any gun - pistol OR rifle - would turn around and actually be effective on the downward ride but I didn't do any internet searches and the only info I have is my own, prone-to-massive-error noodle and half-assed military memories. Although, I'd match up the human skull against a pound (or two, or three) of ground beef anyday for superior armor protection.
That said, I retract my statement that the woman should have fired a warning shot in the air first. It's an unreliable, dangerous, chaotic move that's prone to killing an innocent bystander (unless someone proves me otherwise).
I'll say this much... Holy shit! An old-school .45 ACP can hit someone at 1,600 yards with the barrel elevated 30 degrees?!? That POS could barely hit someone point blank, firing the entire mag with the barrel leveled directly at the target's chest. At least, that was my experience with it. But, science is science... :)
73
Just something that none of you have taken into account yet:
Statistically speaking, if you fired a bullet into the air... the likelihood of it actually hitting a person is incredibly small. And I mean SMALL. You're talking the area of lateral cross section of the human skull compared with the entire area within a verticle trajectory's reach (which can be quite large unless its fired directly upward, perfectly. However, take into account recoil, wind velocity, and air density, this perfect upward shot is for all practical purposes impossible.
So unless you are in the middle of a very dense crowd of people, that extends for hundreds of yards, possibly thousands, in all directions.... The likelihood of you killing someone by shooting upwards is mute.
Just sayin'
Statistically speaking, if you fired a bullet into the air... the likelihood of it actually hitting a person is incredibly small. And I mean SMALL. You're talking the area of lateral cross section of the human skull compared with the entire area within a verticle trajectory's reach (which can be quite large unless its fired directly upward, perfectly. However, take into account recoil, wind velocity, and air density, this perfect upward shot is for all practical purposes impossible.
So unless you are in the middle of a very dense crowd of people, that extends for hundreds of yards, possibly thousands, in all directions.... The likelihood of you killing someone by shooting upwards is mute.
Just sayin'
74
"@66 Even women who have been physically threatened by men can realize that you're not in the right when you escalate a situation. "
How would you escalate the situation? When the threat of serious bodily injury is eminent, it really can't get any worse. Are women required to curl up in the fetal position while taking the blows and just wait and see how far the assailant is going to take it? Should she have waited for the brass knuckles to come out before she pulled out her piece?
How would you escalate the situation? When the threat of serious bodily injury is eminent, it really can't get any worse. Are women required to curl up in the fetal position while taking the blows and just wait and see how far the assailant is going to take it? Should she have waited for the brass knuckles to come out before she pulled out her piece?
75
About the warning shots, those are totally illegal for starters. You are not permitted to fire a gun in the city limits UNLESS it's in self-defense. Firing a warning shot, or brandishing for that matter, for the purpose of merely threatening or intimidating someone is not self defense. It's bullying. A gun is not a tough-gal status statement, it's an absolute last resort. Though people here disagree that it was her last resort in this case, the law says it was and I agree.
I do think it's interesting that people who are anti-gun or don't believe that people should have guns for self-defense are advocating things like warning shots, which would amount to escalating the situation (presumably, if one had time for a warning shot, it would be before the assailant was posing a reasonable physical threat). And it's reckless and terrifying to bystanders. On the contrary, shooting the person who's almost on top of you neutralizes the situation.
I do think it's interesting that people who are anti-gun or don't believe that people should have guns for self-defense are advocating things like warning shots, which would amount to escalating the situation (presumably, if one had time for a warning shot, it would be before the assailant was posing a reasonable physical threat). And it's reckless and terrifying to bystanders. On the contrary, shooting the person who's almost on top of you neutralizes the situation.
77
How would you escalate the situation?
By making obscene gestures at the man through the bus window to antagonize him? Did you read the story?
78
from Wikipedia:
People are injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.
A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[6] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[7] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[7]
People are injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.
A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[6] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[7] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[7]
79
Just because she isnt being charged with anything doesnt mean what she did was right.
Thats a brilliant example to set for your children - If someone, who is obviously drunk/mentally ill/stoned is rude to you, the *right* thing to do is maybe say excuse me or something, and when you get off the bus, thats the end of it. She escalated the situation that really shouldnt have gone any further than the bus.
What *isnt* the right thing to do is to get off the bus, and , along with your family, finger the person in question. If you then shoot the man when he gets off the bus because you insulted him....
Sounds like another uneducated breeder to me....
Thats a brilliant example to set for your children - If someone, who is obviously drunk/mentally ill/stoned is rude to you, the *right* thing to do is maybe say excuse me or something, and when you get off the bus, thats the end of it. She escalated the situation that really shouldnt have gone any further than the bus.
What *isnt* the right thing to do is to get off the bus, and , along with your family, finger the person in question. If you then shoot the man when he gets off the bus because you insulted him....
Sounds like another uneducated breeder to me....
80
@75,
I'm neither anti-gun nor against people having guns for self-defense. I'm actually against most gun control laws (except for ones barring criminals and mentally unstable people from having guns... I'm in favor of that, those people definitely shouldn't have weapons).
I'm not really advocating warning shots in general, I only mentioned it for this specific case. I mean, it's the middle of the day, in a populated area, and she's got family members with her. It's not like she was charged by a stranger in a dark alley at midnight with nobody around to come to her aid. I simply think she could have done almost anything rather than shoot this guy. Hell, warning shots are dangerous, but imagine if she missed the guy while pointing AT him?!? She definitely could have killed a bystander that way.
This chick is completely irresponsible, and irresponsible people shouldn't be waving guns around town.
I'm neither anti-gun nor against people having guns for self-defense. I'm actually against most gun control laws (except for ones barring criminals and mentally unstable people from having guns... I'm in favor of that, those people definitely shouldn't have weapons).
I'm not really advocating warning shots in general, I only mentioned it for this specific case. I mean, it's the middle of the day, in a populated area, and she's got family members with her. It's not like she was charged by a stranger in a dark alley at midnight with nobody around to come to her aid. I simply think she could have done almost anything rather than shoot this guy. Hell, warning shots are dangerous, but imagine if she missed the guy while pointing AT him?!? She definitely could have killed a bystander that way.
This chick is completely irresponsible, and irresponsible people shouldn't be waving guns around town.
81
@78,
Well shit... you learn something new each day. Ok, I stand corrected.
On a side note, the celebratory gunfire related deaths made me laugh.
Well shit... you learn something new each day. Ok, I stand corrected.
On a side note, the celebratory gunfire related deaths made me laugh.
82
After many years of riding public transportation I no longer have any pity for douche-bags who harass, molest, threaten, or attack fellow bus riders. People have the right to walk down the street or use public transportation without being assaulted. Salters got on that bus stoned/drunk and looking for trouble and he found it. If Sara Brereton hadn't been armed, we'd be reading a story about how some nut killed or maimed her and/or her family.
He's like Gerardo Sanchez, who walked up to another man on a near empty subway car and killed him when the guy refused to give up his seat. He could have had any other seat on the train but he got on looking for someone to kill. He was high on pain killers and when the cops caught him he said, "What? I didn't do nothin!"
He's like Gerardo Sanchez, who walked up to another man on a near empty subway car and killed him when the guy refused to give up his seat. He could have had any other seat on the train but he got on looking for someone to kill. He was high on pain killers and when the cops caught him he said, "What? I didn't do nothin!"
83
Well, of course! Whenever someone is slightly rude to me, my inevitable reaction is to get red in the face and charge at them, spitting and threatening. It's entirely reasonable! Surely no one could mistake such a perfectly normal response as genuinely menacing?
84
I reluctantly agree that she was within the law. But that doesn't make her or her family any less assholish. (Or him, for that matter).
Why is everyone so angry and offended by everything all the time nowadays? Even if you've had a shit year and are broke or whatever, it's not like we all live someplace horrible, like in some extremely developing or prohibitive country. Seattle is such a wonderful and beautiful place to live; it's incredible to me how sensitive, entitled, angry and indignant so many people are here. Everyone needs to lighten up and count their blessings, or whatever they call your version of good luck. If you're not dead it's a good day.
Why is everyone so angry and offended by everything all the time nowadays? Even if you've had a shit year and are broke or whatever, it's not like we all live someplace horrible, like in some extremely developing or prohibitive country. Seattle is such a wonderful and beautiful place to live; it's incredible to me how sensitive, entitled, angry and indignant so many people are here. Everyone needs to lighten up and count their blessings, or whatever they call your version of good luck. If you're not dead it's a good day.
85
I'm concerned that this woman was'nt cited for heckeling road rage, harrassment, starting trouble, egging the guy on etc. She and all of her family (even her four sweet children) yelled obsenities and used crude sign language to further incite the guy. What a charming family outing and learning experience for how to deal with a disagreement. Of course she felt completely safe knowing she had a gun and he probably did'nt. I think her license to carry should be revoked, and she should be forced to take a class on handling conflict. That man would never have gotten so angry if she had'nt taken it one huge step further. iI don't think his behavior was any worse than hers. I wonder who's going to piss her off next that she'll have to shoot.
86
@85: Dani Girl wrote, "I'm concerned that this woman was'nt cited for heckeling road rage, harrassment, starting trouble, egging the guy on etc." That's probably because you're unfamiliar with your First Amendment protections.
"What a charming family outing and learning experience for how to deal with a disagreement."
Bad example of conflict avoidance, for sure. Good example, early on, of how to stand up for yourself when some guy starts rubbing himself on you in a bus.
"Of course she felt completely safe knowing she had a gun and he probably did'nt."
And of course, he felt completely safe blowing his top and charging after her knowing he could physically out-power her.
"That man would never have gotten so angry if she had'nt taken it one huge step further."
That man would never have been shot if he had controlled his temper, or heeded the advice in, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
We're fortunate when powderkegs like this guy are detonated by someone who is ready to deal with the blast and can channel that energy into making him less likely to blow up at someone and do damage.
"I don't think his behavior was any worse than hers."
Really? You really think that A) sticking your crotch or ass in someone's face on an uncrowded bus, reacting angrily when she tells you to piss off, getting off the bus and running after her after she exits and flips you the bird, and continuing to come after her once she's drawn a gun, aimed it at you, and told you to stop, is no worse than B) reacting angrily when some guy sticks his ass or crotch in your face on a crowded bus, flipping him off as the bus you exited drives away with him, drawing a gun and aiming it at him after he forces the bus to stop where it shouldn't, gets out, and runs angrily toward you, then shooting when he continues to advance to a range from which he can reach you with his bare hands or a knife? Really?
"I wonder who's going to piss her off next that she'll have to shoot."
Hopefully, it will be someone else who'll otherwise remain likely to someday hurt someone because he feels that threats of physical violence are a reasonable response to insulting words and rude gestures.
More...
"What a charming family outing and learning experience for how to deal with a disagreement."
Bad example of conflict avoidance, for sure. Good example, early on, of how to stand up for yourself when some guy starts rubbing himself on you in a bus.
"Of course she felt completely safe knowing she had a gun and he probably did'nt."
And of course, he felt completely safe blowing his top and charging after her knowing he could physically out-power her.
"That man would never have gotten so angry if she had'nt taken it one huge step further."
That man would never have been shot if he had controlled his temper, or heeded the advice in, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
We're fortunate when powderkegs like this guy are detonated by someone who is ready to deal with the blast and can channel that energy into making him less likely to blow up at someone and do damage.
"I don't think his behavior was any worse than hers."
Really? You really think that A) sticking your crotch or ass in someone's face on an uncrowded bus, reacting angrily when she tells you to piss off, getting off the bus and running after her after she exits and flips you the bird, and continuing to come after her once she's drawn a gun, aimed it at you, and told you to stop, is no worse than B) reacting angrily when some guy sticks his ass or crotch in your face on a crowded bus, flipping him off as the bus you exited drives away with him, drawing a gun and aiming it at him after he forces the bus to stop where it shouldn't, gets out, and runs angrily toward you, then shooting when he continues to advance to a range from which he can reach you with his bare hands or a knife? Really?
"I wonder who's going to piss her off next that she'll have to shoot."
Hopefully, it will be someone else who'll otherwise remain likely to someday hurt someone because he feels that threats of physical violence are a reasonable response to insulting words and rude gestures.
87
Ok, let me say this, the kid is my old neighbour (moved out in October) and I know who he is. I saw him the day of the shooting. I don't believe his story 100% by any means, but I believe some of it. He told me that he fell into the woman as he was looking for change after he boarded the bus. The bus began moving and she was seated in the front side seats with her brood. He told her sorry and that he was looking for his fare, and then she immediately started cursing him out - loudly. No where at any time did he rub himself against her, I know this guy and I just don't believe it happened. He told me he fell back into her as he tried to regain balance on the moving crowded bus. He told me she was extremely aggressive from the get go and called him all types of names as soon as he bumped her. He told me that he went to the back of the bus to get his seat and had his headphones on. He was sitting there when he said she then got up from the front talking shit, popping her knuckles while calling him a "bitch ass nigga". She walked down the aisle and got in his face over his seat gesturing and saying "what's up? whats up then?". He said at that point he wanted to get off the bus as he was going to transfer to the 106 anyway, and he wanted her to stop freaking out. (He is scrawny kid and he said she was pretty burly and acting threatening.) He pulled the cord. He said after he did that, the woman began talking about fucking him up and went back to the front off the bus and got her family ready so they could all get off. Emmanual told me that they all got off the bus, the woman and her family first, and when he got off they were still talking shit to him. He said she was cursing and flipping him off so he spit towards her as he ran towards the waiting 106. That is when she shot him.
Sounds like both of them were acting dumb. He told me he never was going to try to spit on anyone again! What a goon. He's basically just an average 20 something year old kid, he had gone to college at SCC and works at an auto shop. He is a pretty much a typical stoner kid, not any mentally disturbed person, gangster thug, or one of the homeless. He paid rent here in the north end for two years and was friendly although annoying when he would ask me "what's up with the chronic?" (Sometimes it is obvious where that stink in the hallway is coming from at 11pm!) Hope he learned a lesson.
More...
Sounds like both of them were acting dumb. He told me he never was going to try to spit on anyone again! What a goon. He's basically just an average 20 something year old kid, he had gone to college at SCC and works at an auto shop. He is a pretty much a typical stoner kid, not any mentally disturbed person, gangster thug, or one of the homeless. He paid rent here in the north end for two years and was friendly although annoying when he would ask me "what's up with the chronic?" (Sometimes it is obvious where that stink in the hallway is coming from at 11pm!) Hope he learned a lesson.
88
So NumberOne (oh pseudonymous self-reported acquaintance), he'll be suing her, and you'll be testifying on his behalf, right? Right.
The forensic investigation should indicate whether he was running toward her or toward a bus. If the story is as you relayed, the bus was directly across from her, and she pulled a gun as he approached her, and he didn't stop, then he's an idiot, and this is all terribly unfortunate.
Guess he'll never try to spit on anyone again! What a goon! Tee-hee!
Whatever.
The forensic investigation should indicate whether he was running toward her or toward a bus. If the story is as you relayed, the bus was directly across from her, and she pulled a gun as he approached her, and he didn't stop, then he's an idiot, and this is all terribly unfortunate.
Guess he'll never try to spit on anyone again! What a goon! Tee-hee!
Whatever.
89
Oh, and NumberOne, your friend's story reportedly conflicts with that of the other party, multiple witnesses on and off the bus, and videorecordings of the incident. So yeah, you might not want to believe is story 100%.
90
Phil M where the fuck are you coming up with your weak assertions from? I never said anything different than the story Emmanuel told me that day. I said he told me he ran by her to go to the bus- he probably told me that instead of admitting to me that he got up in her face. My personal opinion of knowing this guy as an apartment neighbour and what he told me happened that day are simply that: his story that he told me and my own opinions of him as a person. The victim in this case is as able as any other witness to give his own account of the story, regardless of if it matches up with other statements or not. Its up to us as individual readers to hear all accounts from every angle and then pass judgment of the most likely probably scenario. I never said I believed his side completely, so please get some reading comprehension skills before you attempt to one up people. Your comments have no point to them, so kindly go piss off, tee hee.
91
@64
A penny can kill you, dropped from a tall building. A bullet can go up that high. You need to review your physics courses, if you ever took them, instead of spouting stuff off the top of your head.
I love (not), how some here think they know better than someone who was legitimately defending themsleves. You can spout all the "what ifs," role reversals, and project your fears you like, but they don't reflect what actually happened. She acted responsibly when it counted.
This guy was doing a hate crime on her and her family, and you critize her for taking it seriously. I assume many of you think she should have cowered and ignored him, and that would diffuse the situation? Maybe, maybe not, but there would certainly be no incentive for him to not do it again. And homophobes like him are repeat offenders until they learn the hard way.
A penny can kill you, dropped from a tall building. A bullet can go up that high. You need to review your physics courses, if you ever took them, instead of spouting stuff off the top of your head.
I love (not), how some here think they know better than someone who was legitimately defending themsleves. You can spout all the "what ifs," role reversals, and project your fears you like, but they don't reflect what actually happened. She acted responsibly when it counted.
This guy was doing a hate crime on her and her family, and you critize her for taking it seriously. I assume many of you think she should have cowered and ignored him, and that would diffuse the situation? Maybe, maybe not, but there would certainly be no incentive for him to not do it again. And homophobes like him are repeat offenders until they learn the hard way.
92
Now don't get pissed Phil M.It sounds like you have a little bit of an anger problem. Are you going to go apply for a permit to carry? Maybe you'll get lucky and get it before Christmas. That way, if anyone bumps into you while you're shopping, you can give them what they deserve. Have a nice day.
93
@90: from the article, which reads:
"Multiple eye witnesses both on and off the bus were interviewed by the police. The witnesses gave statements consistent with what Brereton had reported and the video tape showed. Salters could not immediately be interviewed due to his medical condition. After his release from the hospital the police worked hard to locate Mr. Salters and take a statement from him. Taken in late September of 2009, Salter's statement about the incident leading up to the confrontation was not consistent with that of other witnesses."
@92: see also: ad hominem
"Multiple eye witnesses both on and off the bus were interviewed by the police. The witnesses gave statements consistent with what Brereton had reported and the video tape showed. Salters could not immediately be interviewed due to his medical condition. After his release from the hospital the police worked hard to locate Mr. Salters and take a statement from him. Taken in late September of 2009, Salter's statement about the incident leading up to the confrontation was not consistent with that of other witnesses."
@92: see also: ad hominem
95
So she doesn't have to try to get away, and she totally instigated it, and deliberately pissed him off, and when he came at her to get in her face she shot him in the chest, and it's the STATE'S job to prove that it WASN'T self-defense? Wow. I wanna go shoot people in Seattle, where it's legal and you can just claim you mistakenly thought you were being threatened and didn't feel like trying to get away.
96
@91, How do you know it was a hate crime? Maybe he was legitimately pissed because she was being a bitch, not because she was gay? He's standing on a bus, he walks up toward the front because his stop is coming up, the bus moves and jostles him into a lady who then hauls off and shoves him, they got into an argument, and the bus stopped. tehy got off, he walked away, the woman, and her children (nice parenting Mom) start cursing and yelling at him, so he marches back to give her a piece of his mind. She pulls a gun, he tries to call her bluff (there's a mistake to get shot over) and she fires point blank into his chest. That's not a hate crime, unless moody entitled bitches are a protected class now.
97
@95, et. al.: What some of you don't seem to understand is that regardless of whatever shitty upbringing led you to believe otherwise, you are not entitled to "get in someone's face" when you're angry at them. If you do it in a threatening manner (and how could that not be threatening?) that causes the person to believe that he or she is in danger, you are committing assault. When this guy had the bus driver stop so he could get off and come running toward the woman, she had good reason to suspect that she and her kids were in danger. When she aimed a gun at him and he still didn't stop, there was almost no doubt that they were in danger. What do you think she should have done at that point? Picked up the kids and tried to outrun him? Left them behind and run? Waited to see if he was going to hit her or pull a knife and stab her?
@94: It went like this: I wrote, "your friend's story reportedly conflicts with that of the other party, multiple witnesses on and off the bus, and videorecordings of the incident. So yeah, you might not want to believe his story 100%", then you wrote "where the fuck are you coming up with your weak assertions from?", then I wrote that my assertions came from the article, and quoted it as saying, "Multiple eye witnesses both on and off the bus were interviewed by the police. The witnesses gave statements consistent with what Brereton had reported and the video tape showed. Salters could not immediately be interviewed due to his medical condition. After his release from the hospital the police worked hard to locate Mr. Salters and take a statement from him. Taken in late September of 2009, Salter's statement about the incident leading up to the confrontation was not consistent with that of other witnesses.", then you wrote, "and your point is....?". I don't what else to say to you.
More...
@94: It went like this: I wrote, "your friend's story reportedly conflicts with that of the other party, multiple witnesses on and off the bus, and videorecordings of the incident. So yeah, you might not want to believe his story 100%", then you wrote "where the fuck are you coming up with your weak assertions from?", then I wrote that my assertions came from the article, and quoted it as saying, "Multiple eye witnesses both on and off the bus were interviewed by the police. The witnesses gave statements consistent with what Brereton had reported and the video tape showed. Salters could not immediately be interviewed due to his medical condition. After his release from the hospital the police worked hard to locate Mr. Salters and take a statement from him. Taken in late September of 2009, Salter's statement about the incident leading up to the confrontation was not consistent with that of other witnesses.", then you wrote, "and your point is....?". I don't what else to say to you.
98
@87: run over to the waiting 106? should have been "waiting" about 50 feet below - early afternoons it runs in the bus tunnel.
@52: I guess she didn't have "young bodied muscley man, charging & spitting" in her purse, with which to "match equal force". Jackwipe.
@76: yeah, like, so quiet you can't hear the point. (Gun musta had a syntax silencer).
@73 - middle of a crowd - like, say, an urban downtown core in the early afternoon?
@42 / @64 @70 - Select: full of sleestak shit.
Mythbusters found it to be both Busted and Confirmed: they confirmed the known cases of death, but believe them to be from not-exactly-vertical shots (perfectly vertical shots WERE busted)
2 die a year in PR alone! Dozens across the globe. I give you .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory…
Don't trust the wiki? How about the UN campaign to end Shooting In The Air? http://www.iansa.org/regions/aerial-gunf… Or a newspaper: http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/123196…
@29 - good call on the bullying. Though it seems they both were bullying. And.. .someone falls on me twice, I ain't going to sit and say Nothing... (being a doormat in a city sets a horrible example for the kids too). Aside from the Joy of Tazing... Martial arts should be the way to go in this situation, no? Horrible nerve damage? Yes, please.
@79 - you conveniently left out the part where the initial assault came from Salter, falling on her- not to mention the part where the attacker/shooting victim forced his way off a bus in traffic to go after her. AND the part where he kept coming after the brandishing. Is it her job to evaluate his blood alcohol level or medically diagnose from her seat while being assaulted? Don't see that in the RCW.
It's not even her obligation by law to retreat / leave the bus... yet she did. The flipping of the bird may have been bad taste, but it wasn't inciting a riot, twas a foolish release and NOT ASSAULT. And since when are lesbians lumped in with the distasteful hate language "breeders" ...? God forbid a gay couple adopt, right, hatorade?
@85 you are a stupid twat - see above: she seems to have de-escalated by getting off the bus - turn off daddy's laptop and go play under the aurora bridge with yer friend.
"I wonder who's going to piss her off next that she'll have to shoot."
I'm sure you and I can come up with a candidate. I get two votes though.
@62: whoops. you just advocated being a grownup on the stranger, nay, SLOG, board. Lose a turn on your next round of internets. Do not pass go.
More...
@52: I guess she didn't have "young bodied muscley man, charging & spitting" in her purse, with which to "match equal force". Jackwipe.
@76: yeah, like, so quiet you can't hear the point. (Gun musta had a syntax silencer).
@73 - middle of a crowd - like, say, an urban downtown core in the early afternoon?
@42 / @64 @70 - Select: full of sleestak shit.
Mythbusters found it to be both Busted and Confirmed: they confirmed the known cases of death, but believe them to be from not-exactly-vertical shots (perfectly vertical shots WERE busted)
2 die a year in PR alone! Dozens across the globe. I give you .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory…
Don't trust the wiki? How about the UN campaign to end Shooting In The Air? http://www.iansa.org/regions/aerial-gunf… Or a newspaper: http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/123196…
@29 - good call on the bullying. Though it seems they both were bullying. And.. .someone falls on me twice, I ain't going to sit and say Nothing... (being a doormat in a city sets a horrible example for the kids too). Aside from the Joy of Tazing... Martial arts should be the way to go in this situation, no? Horrible nerve damage? Yes, please.
@79 - you conveniently left out the part where the initial assault came from Salter, falling on her- not to mention the part where the attacker/shooting victim forced his way off a bus in traffic to go after her. AND the part where he kept coming after the brandishing. Is it her job to evaluate his blood alcohol level or medically diagnose from her seat while being assaulted? Don't see that in the RCW.
It's not even her obligation by law to retreat / leave the bus... yet she did. The flipping of the bird may have been bad taste, but it wasn't inciting a riot, twas a foolish release and NOT ASSAULT. And since when are lesbians lumped in with the distasteful hate language "breeders" ...? God forbid a gay couple adopt, right, hatorade?
@85 you are a stupid twat - see above: she seems to have de-escalated by getting off the bus - turn off daddy's laptop and go play under the aurora bridge with yer friend.
"I wonder who's going to piss her off next that she'll have to shoot."
I'm sure you and I can come up with a candidate. I get two votes though.
@62: whoops. you just advocated being a grownup on the stranger, nay, SLOG, board. Lose a turn on your next round of internets. Do not pass go.
99
@97, I don't believe people have the right to get in someone's face awhenever they're angry. I am personally nonconfrontational to a fault. But I don't think murder is the answer either. You don't think it's just a little absurd and entitled to pick a fight with some guy, wait till he fights back, then shoot him in the chest and claim self defense? Fine, she felt threatened, but how threatened did she feel that she didn't try to get away from him? Some crazy guy from the bus gets off the bus at the next stop and is on the street with me and my family, I'm going to put my hand on my gun and walk hurriedly away with my kids under my arm, NOT start screaming at him on the street. Some crazy guy starts striding (it said strode, not ran or charged) at me and my family I am going to try to get them away, not play Dirty Harry with my gun/entitlement attitude. Fine, I'd shoot him to protect my family, but it sounds like to this woman, that's the first resort. Be a raving bitch, wait till someone's pissed, then shoot and claim self defense because the laws say my only justification can be my mindset at the time. If I thought he might hurt me I can stand right there and wait for him and shoot him. No sending her kids down the street while she stayed behind to protect them, just shoot a stranger on the street.
And there are people claiming gay bashing! News flash, you can be gay AND be an obnoxious person. They're not mutually exclusive. If you're going to be a total asshole, don't play the race card or religion card or gay card about it. You can bash a gay person without it being gay bashing, if you're not doing it BECAUSE they're gay.
And there are people claiming gay bashing! News flash, you can be gay AND be an obnoxious person. They're not mutually exclusive. If you're going to be a total asshole, don't play the race card or religion card or gay card about it. You can bash a gay person without it being gay bashing, if you're not doing it BECAUSE they're gay.
100
"someone, who is obviously drunk/mentally ill/stoned is rude to you, the *right* thing to do is maybe say excuse me"
oh yes, and give them $20 to relieve your liberal guilt while you're busy apologizing.
Actually shooting a few might make the rest of these assholes learn the fucking manners their parents never taught them.
oh yes, and give them $20 to relieve your liberal guilt while you're busy apologizing.
Actually shooting a few might make the rest of these assholes learn the fucking manners their parents never taught them.
101
@100- Being polite and not shooting people is a sign of liberal guilt? Wow. Gotta love the irony of refusing to say "excuse me" to a rude person and then claiming to care about manners. Hilarious.
102
As a woman who has been accosted on the bus many times, including last week when a guy sat down and put his arm around me, then acted like I was the asshole when I yelled at him to get off of me, I have say this story made me very happy. Don't want to get shot? Try not fucking with people. She warned him first and he was a dumbass. Right or wrong, it was awesome justice for those of us who are sick of being messed with when we're just trying to go to the store.
103
@96
You should read the media accounts, the statements of the witnesses, and the referenced to the video, before you make ignorant assumptions like that. You are way off-base. Her account has been backed up by all of the above.
A PI "911" blog blurb about the shooting, dated the following day. Don't know if this is the "original" article. It includes an audio link to the police statement.
blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/1
67349.asp
This one is dated two days after the event.
www.seattlepi.com/local/405599_busshooti…;
Here's a KOMO article dated the day after the event.
www.komonews.com/news/43697092.html?
It's fascinating how some people can conjure up worst case scenarios that did not happen to justify their own fears to project upon it.
You should read the media accounts, the statements of the witnesses, and the referenced to the video, before you make ignorant assumptions like that. You are way off-base. Her account has been backed up by all of the above.
A PI "911" blog blurb about the shooting, dated the following day. Don't know if this is the "original" article. It includes an audio link to the police statement.
blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/1
67349.asp
This one is dated two days after the event.
www.seattlepi.com/local/405599_busshooti…;
Here's a KOMO article dated the day after the event.
www.komonews.com/news/43697092.html?
It's fascinating how some people can conjure up worst case scenarios that did not happen to justify their own fears to project upon it.
104
Sorry, the above links got mangled:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/arc…
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/405599_bu…
http://www.komonews.com/news/43697092.ht…
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/arc…
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/405599_bu…
http://www.komonews.com/news/43697092.ht…
105
@101...you make it sound like this asshole was minding his own business. He threatened her and threatened the lives of her family. You don't have to be polite and say 'excuse me' people who may well kill you and your kids, unless you're a dumb fucking liberal who thinks crazy vagrants on buses are to be admired.
108
According to original news reports, this is not the second time she has pulled a gun on someone; there was a third incident in another state. She is obviously a hot-head, trash-talking, bird-flipping asshole herself, who most certainly doesn't have the emotional maturity to be carrying a gun around (or, it would seem, to be parenting four children). Not to excuse the dumbass who probably instigated the sordid affair; he got what he deserved for his behavior. But I won't be surprised when hear about this packin' lady again someday when she next pulls her brashness out of its holster.
109
From the responses on here, I take it none of you have carried a weapon before. I have been though private handgun courses and through military weapons training courses. You learn some basic behaviors. The first is that it is your responsibility to maintain control of the weapon at all costs. The second is if you pull a weapon, then be prepared to use it. The reason for the no retreat clause in the RCW is to prevent the weapon from being taken away and used against the owner. You can't defend your back as your running away. What would be the response if he had taken the gun from her and killed her and the people she was with? You would bitch that she was irresponsible and shouldn't have carried a gun in the first place. I am glad she was practicing her first two amendments. It shows the system still works. And where were the police that we pay for protection? Off at another funeral for officers that have been shot in the line of duty by so
e mentally deranged scum bag that took a gun from a person who owns a firearm but lacks the training or intestinal fortitude to use it.
e mentally deranged scum bag that took a gun from a person who owns a firearm but lacks the training or intestinal fortitude to use it.
110
And so many people wonder why Seattle should be nuked off the planet? Thank god I left that area, I have never heard so many whiney libtarded babies who rather stick their hands in the air like pansies and let someone run over them than have the guts to defend themselves or others.
What the hell is wrong with you people? Momma not feed you your strained peas? Are you under the misguided notion the police will always be there for you? This is education? Roll over and die but heaven forbid a women defends her children?
God you people are sick!! No wonder Seattle is the pussy whipped capitol of the world. Call me what you will but I commend her for at least standing up for what you stupid and self righteous bastards wouldnt have the guts to!!! What if it was someone you love? Get a clue you closet case fairies!!
Go get flung off the Aurora Bridge you tea totaling, Mass Effect, edunatzis!!
Damn neutered people
What the hell is wrong with you people? Momma not feed you your strained peas? Are you under the misguided notion the police will always be there for you? This is education? Roll over and die but heaven forbid a women defends her children?
God you people are sick!! No wonder Seattle is the pussy whipped capitol of the world. Call me what you will but I commend her for at least standing up for what you stupid and self righteous bastards wouldnt have the guts to!!! What if it was someone you love? Get a clue you closet case fairies!!
Go get flung off the Aurora Bridge you tea totaling, Mass Effect, edunatzis!!
Damn neutered people
111
I think that the woman in this instance has given all of us who carry a bad image. She was obviously, LEGALLY, within her rights to use her weapon to defend herself and her family. BUT, from everything I have read, it seems to me that she definitely escalated the situation. She deliberately provoked her attacker with rude language and gestures. I carry a gun for self defense almost 100% of the time, except when I have to go where my weapon is not allowed. I would never dream of deliberately provoking someone into a situation like this. Because I carry a weapon, the law holds me and other gun owners to a higher standard; we are supposed to avoid conflict like the plague. I take the responsibility of carrying a firearm VERY seriously and I hope and pray I never have to use it. I have also bothered to take training from well qualified instructors and I practice on a regular basis. The NRA has a book out called " NRA
112
Book called the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection Outside the Home. Avoidance is stressed throughout the book. For anyone who is interested, there is a book by Dave Workman called Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities. I highly recommend it for all gun owners.
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