Slog
News & ArtsMonday, November 30, 2009
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Whose Pussy?
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 11:50 AM
I'm a 40 year old lesbian who had a bad break up about two years ago. My ex reached out to me via email recently and we've begun writing back and forth. Yesterday she emailed me to inform me that she felt sexually violated by me during our relationship and that she needed me to know this.The event she referenced was a sexual encounter in which I was talking dirty to her, something she had told me she enjoyed. I asked her, "Who does this pussy belong too?" while fucking her. At the time she seemed to be enjoying herself... now, two years later she is informing me she felt violated.
My immediate reaction was to become defensive, but now I am concerned. The last thing I want is to be responsible for hurting someone I was intimate with. I have emailed her apologizing for violating her trust but I am unsure how to proceed because I didn't at the time that I was doing anything wrong. I've never thought of myself as some sort of abusive person and this has made me question myself. Can you offer me any words of wisdom on how to deal with this?
Violating Asinine Gal
My response after the jump...
You do realize that it's possible that you've just been violated, right? A false accusation of sexual violation—innocently false or maliciously false—can be a kind of sexual violation, VAG, particularly when the false accusation is lodged against an introspective, sensitive ethical person who would never want to hurt someone.
You gave your ex what she asked for—a little dirty talk—and she seemed to enjoy it at the time. If she wasn't enjoying it, VAG, she should have had the sense and courtesy to say, "That didn't work for me, that kind of squicked me out," when it happened. Then you would have been able to 1. make your apologies and 2. prove your good intentions by not saying anything similar the next time you engaged in dirty talk. Instead she "reached out" to you two years later and accused you of violating her. Her feedback about your dirty talk is a little late and more than a little suspect. The time that passed between "Who does this pussy belong too?" and "I felt sexually violated" leads me to believe that she may have liked the game at the time but has since decided that dirty talk—particularly when flavored with power games—is wrong and she feels bad about it now and wants to shift all responsibility for her past enjoying of it to you. Hence the accusatory email.*
You can't say "talk dirty to me" to someone and just hope she'll say all the right things. You either give the girlfriend some guidance if there are places you don't want her to go or you cut your girlfriend some slack if she goes to a no-go place by accident.
You offered your ex an apology, VAG, and —that was the right thing to do. Now she owes you one.
* It's also possible that you're a big, scary monster—how bad was that breakup anywa?—and your ex hated the dirty talk and your power games but was too terrified to say anything to you at the time. But for the purposes of this response I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, VAG. But, you know, look inside and shit.
1
Jesus. What a bunch of wasted energy. These two are both delicate flowers that need to buck up and get on with shit. Really -- this is the shit that people stereotype.
3
This is why lesbians have a reputation for not having sex. Way to much thinking and talking...it really gets in the way.
4
"Why don't lesbians have sex?" said noted lesbian, Dwight Moody, "Way to [sic] much thinking and talking...it really gets in the way. I know, because I'm Dwight the lesbian, and that s*** is always killing the mood when I'm with a lady."
5
What a load. Isn't there a rule about coming back years later and complaining?
"I didn't like the way you fucked me a few years ago so..." just seems like a power trip. I'd tell her to fuck off.
"I didn't like the way you fucked me a few years ago so..." just seems like a power trip. I'd tell her to fuck off.
7
Run VAG, as far and as fast as you can from this Wack Job. And, don't waste another precious minute of your time on her and her problems. She wanted it, said she enjoyed it, she got it and now she's been violated? What the hell else is she going to blame you for if you let her? You said it was a bad break up, yet she's back like a bad rash. She's waaayyy more screwed up than you think.
Run, very, very fast.
Run, very, very fast.
8
Man, woman, straight, gay, I think it's really hard for anyone to violate somebody with just private bedroom dirty talk. I guess, maybe, repeated no-go there dirty talk after clothes-on post coital draw-the-line objections, maybe. But I still have trouble seeing even that, just that, as a violation in and of its ownself.
In public, sure. Along with unwelcome physical stimulation, sure. But violating someone with just your teeth and your tongue in a non-contact context while you're together in bed? I'm really having trouble seeing it.
In public, sure. Along with unwelcome physical stimulation, sure. But violating someone with just your teeth and your tongue in a non-contact context while you're together in bed? I'm really having trouble seeing it.
9
Why can't women just say what they want - and don't want - during sex?
Men have no problem doing that.
Women mostly wait until their 30s before they speak up. Which, frankly, is a shame.
Men have no problem doing that.
Women mostly wait until their 30s before they speak up. Which, frankly, is a shame.
10
@8: Yeah, same. "Violated" is a pretty serious term for the situation described here.
@9: I'm surprised how many guys are terrified of telling their girlfriends how to give a proper handjob, or of directing them on blowjobs. But in such cases I just try to be encouraging rather than making condescending, sweeping generalizations.
@9: I'm surprised how many guys are terrified of telling their girlfriends how to give a proper handjob, or of directing them on blowjobs. But in such cases I just try to be encouraging rather than making condescending, sweeping generalizations.
11
VAG,
You apologized and that is all you can do. If your concerned about your heart, then sit in silence and evaluate it critically. You can try asking people you trust to give it to you straight as well. If after all that you are still at a lost, the problem is not yours.
You apologized and that is all you can do. If your concerned about your heart, then sit in silence and evaluate it critically. You can try asking people you trust to give it to you straight as well. If after all that you are still at a lost, the problem is not yours.
13
Goodness, Will in Seattle, you needn't paint an entire gender with such a broad brush. Some of us have no issue with speaking up.
15
No, 12, this isn't Mars-Venus, because if you look at Kim and Gloria and Linda, you've got plenty of Venus saying the ex is off-base.
I think this is typical passive-aggressive "I feel crappy and it must be your fault." That trope is not gender-specific.
I think this is typical passive-aggressive "I feel crappy and it must be your fault." That trope is not gender-specific.
16
Oh shit, I need to call the ex. I think I violated her this way approximately 137 times a year for a decade. Sorry, the ex!
17
No way. A little debatably over-the-top pillow talk in an otherwise healthy relationship does not get the label of "violation".
If VAG was controlling in other ways, and this was but one example of a broader trend, then possibly the ex might have a point.
But the phrase: "Who does this pussy belong too?" is not, in and of itself, a sexual violation. Not even close.
If VAG was controlling in other ways, and this was but one example of a broader trend, then possibly the ex might have a point.
But the phrase: "Who does this pussy belong too?" is not, in and of itself, a sexual violation. Not even close.
18
@9 In my experience, most men don't speak up either, but maybe also they're not as motivated to, being easier to please in general.
In 15 sexually active years, I only remember once being told/shown something, and that was my first time with an uncircumcised guy.
In 15 sexually active years, I only remember once being told/shown something, and that was my first time with an uncircumcised guy.
20
apologizing when you shouldn't is b.s.
we got two people here, both were passive agressive and avoidant and not staright w each other
not upfront,
iow
2 pussies.
we got two people here, both were passive agressive and avoidant and not staright w each other
not upfront,
iow
2 pussies.
22
@13 - some of you.
But hey, let's face it, not most.
I'm not the first to make that observation, and it has been backed up by scientific observation in peer-reviewed journals.
But hey, let's face it, not most.
I'm not the first to make that observation, and it has been backed up by scientific observation in peer-reviewed journals.
23
@22, I don't think the women who would actually sleep with you can or should form the basis of any sweeping generalizations of the female sex.
24
Jeebus, don't vanilla people TALK about shit like this? If your boundaries are crossed, say so, and ask the person not to repeat it. If they repeat it, then you've been violated, but if you haven't negotiated boundaries, then how the hell are they supposed to know? Osmosis?
25
13: Well, when you've only gotten laid once, you tend to be unaware of the variety that exists within the opposite sex and you just assume that they're all like the one person you've managed to sleep with.
Also, accusing this person of violation is kind of an insult to people who have actually been sexually violated. Going a little too far, unknowingly, with your dirty talk is just a turn-off; nothing more.
Also, accusing this person of violation is kind of an insult to people who have actually been sexually violated. Going a little too far, unknowingly, with your dirty talk is just a turn-off; nothing more.
29
So sorry for your poor experience, Will in Seattle. Word to the wise, painting all women with such a broad paint brush will assure that you rarely get invited into a commanding woman's knickers.
30
I'm not referring to myself or my experience, kim.
Good chance the woman who wrote this had some kind of sexual abuse before becoming an adult, fwiw.
Yet another fascinating correlation.
Good chance the woman who wrote this had some kind of sexual abuse before becoming an adult, fwiw.
Yet another fascinating correlation.
31
I don't get the impression that VAG was abused as a child. Always a possibility though. If anyone was abused than I think it was the ex-girlfriend, the one needed to express her feelings of being violated two years ago.
FYI, as someone who works with and counsels victims of sexual abuse, some become sexually inhibited and others become very sexually un-inhibited, neither is a given, Will.
FYI, as someone who works with and counsels victims of sexual abuse, some become sexually inhibited and others become very sexually un-inhibited, neither is a given, Will.
32
I'm with the people who say RUN AWAY. Your ex is ka-ka-krazy!
It's manipulation of the worst kind.
It's manipulation of the worst kind.
34
Yikes. I've read Slog since the day it started and this is the ugliest I've ever seen Will in Seattle's comments.
I was going to post a link to a news story about a new 42-story residential tower being built next to 2 urban parks in Toronto (with no car-parking spots and 315 bike-parking spots). But instead I'll let Will google it.
I was going to post a link to a news story about a new 42-story residential tower being built next to 2 urban parks in Toronto (with no car-parking spots and 315 bike-parking spots). But instead I'll let Will google it.
35
Even if the ex WAS violated (and I'm not saying she was), you lose the right to claim that your girlfriend violated you after you've broken up. The time and place for that was when it happened or the morning after. Not two years after a bitter break-up. Get over it, woman!
My BS meter was screaming "BULLSHIT!!!" the entire time I was reading what her ex had sent. It's crap, and the writer of the letter shouldn't listen or respond to it. Block her from contacting you, change your phone number, and forget she ever contacted you again.
My BS meter was screaming "BULLSHIT!!!" the entire time I was reading what her ex had sent. It's crap, and the writer of the letter shouldn't listen or respond to it. Block her from contacting you, change your phone number, and forget she ever contacted you again.
38
Oh Will in Seattle!
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression you were gay (which would be a lucky persuasion to be if you wanted to make sweeping generalizations about women as it would have no consequence). Also, women don't 'talk' generally about what we want in bed (straight men are too fragile to use words, they get discouraged and feel incompetent very easily with the complexity of the vagina) we tend to more often use non-verbal clues ie moving their hands, showing them how, moaning louder as they get closer to what we want, verbal positive reinforcement. We communicate in a different way more often than not because its more 'delicate' but also more effective. Men like an illusion that they are sex gods and the less you acknowledge telling them the better they feel (and the harder you get fucked).
With other women, shit gets talked about so I don't know whats going on with these two - I'm betting there was a round of bed death before the incident and because of that there was a mis-communication about the hows and whys of the bed death. It could be that after a long dry-spell they had this raucous sex and the other girl felt that the "whose pussy is this?" was a dig at her for not having given her pussy access for awhile. Thereby a violation of the 'no passive aggression during sex' clause of the 'standard terms of relationship'.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression you were gay (which would be a lucky persuasion to be if you wanted to make sweeping generalizations about women as it would have no consequence). Also, women don't 'talk' generally about what we want in bed (straight men are too fragile to use words, they get discouraged and feel incompetent very easily with the complexity of the vagina) we tend to more often use non-verbal clues ie moving their hands, showing them how, moaning louder as they get closer to what we want, verbal positive reinforcement. We communicate in a different way more often than not because its more 'delicate' but also more effective. Men like an illusion that they are sex gods and the less you acknowledge telling them the better they feel (and the harder you get fucked).
With other women, shit gets talked about so I don't know whats going on with these two - I'm betting there was a round of bed death before the incident and because of that there was a mis-communication about the hows and whys of the bed death. It could be that after a long dry-spell they had this raucous sex and the other girl felt that the "whose pussy is this?" was a dig at her for not having given her pussy access for awhile. Thereby a violation of the 'no passive aggression during sex' clause of the 'standard terms of relationship'.
40
ugly breakup = walk away and never go back
It's great when breakups are mutual and people can salvage a good friendship from a ruined romance. But when the breakup is truly ugly your best bet is to disentangle your lives and go your separate ways for good. Ugly breakups leave real emotional wounds and interacting with that person again, even years later, is just asking to have them ripped open.
It's great when breakups are mutual and people can salvage a good friendship from a ruined romance. But when the breakup is truly ugly your best bet is to disentangle your lives and go your separate ways for good. Ugly breakups leave real emotional wounds and interacting with that person again, even years later, is just asking to have them ripped open.
41
@22: "But baby, science says it's true!"
That's really great. But it doesn't change that you're making an unflattering judgment of a group, without due consideration for what many women might personally do or think. You might be right -- I honestly have no idea -- but your being right in this instance doesn't really serve any purpose here beyond you getting to make a snide remark.
And the fact that you think that's more important than just being nice speaks to a serious lack of manners. Science is good for a lot of things, but I'd recommend turning to some other discipline for ideas on how to treat women with some iota of respect.
That's really great. But it doesn't change that you're making an unflattering judgment of a group, without due consideration for what many women might personally do or think. You might be right -- I honestly have no idea -- but your being right in this instance doesn't really serve any purpose here beyond you getting to make a snide remark.
And the fact that you think that's more important than just being nice speaks to a serious lack of manners. Science is good for a lot of things, but I'd recommend turning to some other discipline for ideas on how to treat women with some iota of respect.
42
I am in the RUN camp. People with adult-level emotional development don't pull that kind of shit. ugh.
43
@41 Gloria, did you really think you could reach out to a gay guy by downplaying the importance of a snide remark? I mean seriously, have consideration for his lifestyle.
44
29 don't be so hard on will he is a pathetic worm give him a second chance invite him into those knickers kim it will rock his world
45
Will in Seattle:
Science also once proved that the world was flat. Seriously, peer reviewed journals? Ugh. I'm sure I could find just as many journals that say the opposite. Kind of like the debate about Global Warming.
I've been with lots of girls- they all spoke up about what they wanted. I do the same, whether I'm with men or women. Sorry that your experience has been otherwise.
Science also once proved that the world was flat. Seriously, peer reviewed journals? Ugh. I'm sure I could find just as many journals that say the opposite. Kind of like the debate about Global Warming.
I've been with lots of girls- they all spoke up about what they wanted. I do the same, whether I'm with men or women. Sorry that your experience has been otherwise.
46
Meh, more women don't speak up about what they want until their 30's.... in comparison most boys are very vocal but WRONG about what they want until their 30's (they tend just to want what they think their friends want). So, big surprise, everyone has their heads up their asses until their 30's or later.
Taking Facebook quizzes is not how you get to 'know yourself.'
Taking Facebook quizzes is not how you get to 'know yourself.'
47
This ex got a bad case of buyer's remorse, but it was too long after the fact to file charges or anything, so she saddled VAG with a huge guilt trip instead. What a cunt.
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