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News & ArtsTuesday, November 24, 2009
Chow PETA vs. Thanksgiving
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:55 AM
It's actually factory farming that this ad condemns... so I assume it's okay with PETA if we eat an organic, free-range, non-burned, non-kicked, non-stomped turkey on Thanksgiving? Or is going vegan the only answer?
2
the turkey carnage aside, it seems like it would be kinda stupid to let all that polar bear meat- http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
-go to waste.
-go to waste.
4
i respect a person's personal choice to not consume meat or animal products (insofar as it's possible). i admire it, even.
PETA, however, makes me want to personally geek turkeys. meat aversion fail.
PETA, however, makes me want to personally geek turkeys. meat aversion fail.
7
Trader Joe's sells organic free-range turkeys.
Same with PCC.
Me, I just accept that all meat is murder and get me a nice tasty cheap turkey that I feel like buying. Then I slaughter some carrots and potatoes and rip some yams out of their beds to eviscerate them, while yanking a head of romaine lettuce and ripping a cucumber from it's stem to make a yummy meal.
Oh, so you thought vegetables LIKED being murdered, you carnivorous beasty, did you? How ... quaint.
Same with PCC.
Me, I just accept that all meat is murder and get me a nice tasty cheap turkey that I feel like buying. Then I slaughter some carrots and potatoes and rip some yams out of their beds to eviscerate them, while yanking a head of romaine lettuce and ripping a cucumber from it's stem to make a yummy meal.
Oh, so you thought vegetables LIKED being murdered, you carnivorous beasty, did you? How ... quaint.
9
I am a person for the ethical treatment of animals. We should treat them ethically before they turn into a treat on the dinner table. Somehow PETA has been hijacked from their original agenda to prevent cruelty (a noble goal) to being some ridiculous veganism only extremist organization. It is the same thing that happened with MADD becoming an organization in a war against alcohol.
You have to watch your organizations to make sure they don't get hijacked by extremists. I think there are other liberal agendas that are in danger of this as well.
You have to watch your organizations to make sure they don't get hijacked by extremists. I think there are other liberal agendas that are in danger of this as well.
10
@7 Thanks! I've almost got a bingo!
Also there's an excellent op-ed in this past Saturday's New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/opinion/22steiner.html?_r=1
Also there's an excellent op-ed in this past Saturday's New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/opinion/22steiner.html?_r=1
11
"Organic" in regards to poultry means that it is not given growth hormones or antibiotics, and a few other regulations like it cannot be fed meal made from other birds. The USDA does not inspect local farms to check if they meet organic standards. Imported food is labelled organic if the producer says it is organic; there are no enforced standards.
"Free range" is not a regulated term except for chickens (which means their cage has to have an open door for part of the day). A calf can be raised in a cage its entire life and the veal harvested from it can be marketed as "free range." Producers generally use the term "free range" to mean animals are raised in a cage with enough room to turn around.
All turkeys and other animals are slaughtered -- usually zapped ("burned") or sliced ("stomped") so it's impossible to avoid that part unless you forage corpses from animals that die of natural causes.
You don't have to go vegan to be more ethical. Just cut back and you're doing a better job. If you eliminate cow and pig meat from your diet, that's the most important part (for environmental, ethical, public health, and personal health reasons).
The mainstream media, public scientists, and activists like Al Gore are finally starting to realize in the past few months that animal farming is the #1 problem facing the planet today. Animal farming is the carbon dioxide emissions of the next decade or more.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/1130/t…
"Free range" is not a regulated term except for chickens (which means their cage has to have an open door for part of the day). A calf can be raised in a cage its entire life and the veal harvested from it can be marketed as "free range." Producers generally use the term "free range" to mean animals are raised in a cage with enough room to turn around.
All turkeys and other animals are slaughtered -- usually zapped ("burned") or sliced ("stomped") so it's impossible to avoid that part unless you forage corpses from animals that die of natural causes.
You don't have to go vegan to be more ethical. Just cut back and you're doing a better job. If you eliminate cow and pig meat from your diet, that's the most important part (for environmental, ethical, public health, and personal health reasons).
The mainstream media, public scientists, and activists like Al Gore are finally starting to realize in the past few months that animal farming is the #1 problem facing the planet today. Animal farming is the carbon dioxide emissions of the next decade or more.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/1130/t…
12
PETA's hidden videos exposed the deplorable conditions for animals in factory farms. If you can watch the videos of animals being tortured, maimed, beaten and then slaughtered and still have an appetite, go ahead and eat your turkey.
13
You gotta give PETA props for getting attention (Sea Kittens anyone?), but their message always confuses me. Are they against animal cruelty or against eating meat? Would they be satisfied if that turkey was raised as a beloved family pet and gently killed, humanely plucked, and roasted with non-carbon emitting heat? Or are they just against meat in general?
15
Actually Lizzie, electricity production is the top source of green house gasses. The day you give up using electricity, I'll give up meat.
18
I wonder if PETA has any videos of animals in the wild dying a 'natural' death. I'm guessing that is probably not especially pretty either.
There was an editorial sermon in the NY Times last week on veganism. Reminded me that I think I have yet to hear or read a pro-vegan/ethical vegetarian argument that does not leave me convinced that when those of this mindset envision a cow (few have probably seen too many of them) they envision it wandering around out in its field on its hind legs wearing overalls.
There was an editorial sermon in the NY Times last week on veganism. Reminded me that I think I have yet to hear or read a pro-vegan/ethical vegetarian argument that does not leave me convinced that when those of this mindset envision a cow (few have probably seen too many of them) they envision it wandering around out in its field on its hind legs wearing overalls.
19
#15: No, it's not. It's not even close. If we eliminated all electricity production and all car/truck/airplane use, greenhouse gases would still rise by 2050 due to increased livestock production (if we could still raise so many livestock without cars/trucks/electricity).
The #1 source of greenhouse gas emissions is livestock. A distant #2 is transportation (cars, trucks, airplanes). An even more distant #3 is industrial (coal, natural gas, etc).
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne…
Regardless, almost 100% of my electricity comes from hydroelectric sources near Seattle with near-zero greenhouse emissions.
The #1 source of greenhouse gas emissions is livestock. A distant #2 is transportation (cars, trucks, airplanes). An even more distant #3 is industrial (coal, natural gas, etc).
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne…
Regardless, almost 100% of my electricity comes from hydroelectric sources near Seattle with near-zero greenhouse emissions.
21
@18, uh no. Being torn to pieces while still alive is not conducive to PETA's message that man's "artificial" cruelty is somehow much worse than what wild animals endure. And don't even glance at the freaky shit insects do--like wasps laying eggs on catepillars that are eaten from the inside out while still living.
Nature, red of tooth and claw.
Nature, red of tooth and claw.
22
i thought the biggest source of greenhouse gas, or at least in the top 3, was swamps and marshes. for future note, saying 'electricity production is the top source of green house gasses' makes you sound stupid. specifically for using the phrase 'electricity production'.
24
@12: Right on. Cruelty happens because most Americans are ignorant and too lazy to do anything about it. Whatever choices you make, you should be aware of the consequences - and for purchasing factory-farmed meat, those consequences include supporting an industry that regularly maims, mistreats, neglects, and tortures animals to keep up with the demand for cheap meat.
I'm vegan - but I don't believe eating meat is murder. The food chain is perfectly normal, and we're omnivores by design. We wouldn't have this issue if everyone was still out hunting their meals. But if you're going to buy meat from a store, you have the responsibility to be aware of what went in to that nicely packaged turkey. If you can watch first-hand the treatment of the animals you want to eat, and still have an appetite and a clean conscience, then enjoy your Thanksgiving turkey.
Factory farming is evil. Free-range is better. Wild is good. Vegan is best.
I'm vegan - but I don't believe eating meat is murder. The food chain is perfectly normal, and we're omnivores by design. We wouldn't have this issue if everyone was still out hunting their meals. But if you're going to buy meat from a store, you have the responsibility to be aware of what went in to that nicely packaged turkey. If you can watch first-hand the treatment of the animals you want to eat, and still have an appetite and a clean conscience, then enjoy your Thanksgiving turkey.
Factory farming is evil. Free-range is better. Wild is good. Vegan is best.
25
lol..what a bright ray of sunshine she is. These are the same people that were persecuting Beyonce over a fur coat so using a little kid for this sort of thing fits perfectly with their type.
27
Lizzie you don't get to pick and choose where your electricity comes from, it's a big connected grid. But it's funny the way you come up with excuses for something YOU don't want to give up.
Are you actually arguing your more moral because of where you live, and where you think you are getting your electricity? Honestly? Thats the logic you're using? You're better than someone who lives near coal plants? Really.
Are you actually arguing your more moral because of where you live, and where you think you are getting your electricity? Honestly? Thats the logic you're using? You're better than someone who lives near coal plants? Really.
28
#26: I mentioned electricity, it's part of "industrial." Transportation (including cars) is #2, still above industrial greenhouse gases (including electricity). Read my link to the UN report (there are more details in links on the sidebar) or google for more information about where global warming gases come from.
#22: Natural sources of greenhouse gases are by far the top sources -- water vapor, marshes, volcanos, etc. However, we mostly need to care about human-caused sources, because that is what is mostly causing climate change right now.
#22: Natural sources of greenhouse gases are by far the top sources -- water vapor, marshes, volcanos, etc. However, we mostly need to care about human-caused sources, because that is what is mostly causing climate change right now.
29
I agree with @9 to the point that I have the same impulse as @4. And I also remember "sea kittens," @13. I had my whole office laughing when I passed around the link to their site on that.
I live in a household that's primarily vegan (myself being the only exception, for the most part), and I feel like I constantly have to police my family members to not act like condescending snobs whenever the topic of consuming meat is brought up. I commend those that decline meat based on moral grounds, but stop with the sanctimonious proselytizing. It gets you nowhere.
Also, thank you @2 for the commercial of the falling polar bears. The animation (or rather, physics settings) looks like crap, but still an interesting vid.
I live in a household that's primarily vegan (myself being the only exception, for the most part), and I feel like I constantly have to police my family members to not act like condescending snobs whenever the topic of consuming meat is brought up. I commend those that decline meat based on moral grounds, but stop with the sanctimonious proselytizing. It gets you nowhere.
Also, thank you @2 for the commercial of the falling polar bears. The animation (or rather, physics settings) looks like crap, but still an interesting vid.
30
@29. I just scrolled down further on the main SLOG page and noticed that polar bear vid was posted further down the page. Oops.
32
Anyway, you don't need to become vegan or do nothing at all. Think of it similarly to how you choose your transportation.
Eating beef/pork regularly = Driving a Hummer
Limiting beef/pork in your diet = Driving a standard SUV
Eating dairy/chicken/fish = Driving a standard car
Vegetarian diet = Driving a Prius or other low-emission car
Mostly vegan diet = Using a Zipcar on occasion and using public transportation
Vegan = Walking and biking everywhere
Eating beef/pork regularly = Driving a Hummer
Limiting beef/pork in your diet = Driving a standard SUV
Eating dairy/chicken/fish = Driving a standard car
Vegetarian diet = Driving a Prius or other low-emission car
Mostly vegan diet = Using a Zipcar on occasion and using public transportation
Vegan = Walking and biking everywhere
33
28, Lizzy, Your link does not address the comparison, but give some more excuses why you use such a dirty product as electricity. Why are you not living in the woods in a shed somewhere? You sure come up with lame excuses not to give up what you want, regardless of it's impact on the environment.
35
I feel bad for this child-if she can't eat anything grown in poop and dirt she'll never be able to eat anything ever again.
And I always enjoy a good shit eating grin!
And I always enjoy a good shit eating grin!
37
A friend of mine worked one summer at a turkey farm. Those turkeys are vicious, he and the other workers had to reguarly beat them down with billy clubs. The turkeys seriously attacked them. He always had really interesting work stories.
38
@ lizzie, that simpleminded list you give @ 32 is all the reason I need to dismiss your whole line of reasoning; you know that greenhouse gases are still used in agriculture, even organic farms. So how can being vegan possibly be like biking and walking everywhere?
If you and PETA could just focus on getting people to reduce their meat intake, rather than browbeating them into making an unnatural lifestyle choice, you'd go a lot further toward reducing animal suffering.
If you and PETA could just focus on getting people to reduce their meat intake, rather than browbeating them into making an unnatural lifestyle choice, you'd go a lot further toward reducing animal suffering.
39
One of the reasons I was a vegetarian for a few years was I did see where all the meat comes from. From beginning to end.
However, vegan is murder too. But the passive plants make you feel all warm and squishy - unless you're a fruititarian and eat seed crops - which is the only truly "ethical" vegan there is.
Psst: that red lipstick and dye you're using is made from beetle skeletons. Face it, you're a murderer, filthy human you ... (grin)
However, vegan is murder too. But the passive plants make you feel all warm and squishy - unless you're a fruititarian and eat seed crops - which is the only truly "ethical" vegan there is.
Psst: that red lipstick and dye you're using is made from beetle skeletons. Face it, you're a murderer, filthy human you ... (grin)
40
lizzie - I just want to say that I think you're being very reasonable in this thread... I was actually a little surprised to read your comment @11, because you seem like you're taking a different approach (more reasoned & moderate) than you have in the past.
I'm in agreement with you 100%, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Less meat is better, cutting down on beef/pork is good, etc. I may not be a vegetarian, but I probably eat 90% less meat than the average American (and the meat we do buy comes from the local butcher or local farmers). Not quite sure why the others are being so inflammatory here...
I'm in agreement with you 100%, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Less meat is better, cutting down on beef/pork is good, etc. I may not be a vegetarian, but I probably eat 90% less meat than the average American (and the meat we do buy comes from the local butcher or local farmers). Not quite sure why the others are being so inflammatory here...
41
@38 has the best viewpoint. The difference between 1 person being truly vegan and 20 people eating less red meat is that the 20 people have way more impact.
42
@39: I'm assuming you're being facetious with the vegetable murder thing, but the truth is it's a real criticism we hear a lot from people who are entirely serious. And it's maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
@40: The reason people get so inflamed is that they're threatened by our implicit suggestion that eating less (or no) meat would be better in a variety of ways. It implies that they're doing something wrong, and they immediately jump on the defensive. If everyone could reasonably defend their views and actions, with facts and stuff (vegans included), we'd all get a lot more done.
@40: The reason people get so inflamed is that they're threatened by our implicit suggestion that eating less (or no) meat would be better in a variety of ways. It implies that they're doing something wrong, and they immediately jump on the defensive. If everyone could reasonably defend their views and actions, with facts and stuff (vegans included), we'd all get a lot more done.
43
@38 - that seems to me to be exactly what she's trying to do here. She is focusing less on getting people to be vegan and more on reduction of meat consumption -- her "simpleminded list" was just a way to get people to see that eating less meat in general, and less beef/pork in particular, is good for the environment (just as going from an SUV to a Prius is a good choice). It's not all or nothing.
44
Lame.
Still, it isn't as bad as some of their previous videos, which were much worse.
As always, PETA is its own worst enemy.
Still, it isn't as bad as some of their previous videos, which were much worse.
As always, PETA is its own worst enemy.
46
Lizzie, there are no hormones used in US poultry production. So you can set your mind at rest on that count at least.
But I'm with 5280 on this one. Turkey's almost always pretty terrible meat, and it's usually the worst food on the Thanksgiving table. Gimme more roasted Brussels sprouts (with onion and bacon), please. Creamed onions. Collard greens or Swiss chard with a little Sriracha sauce. Mashed potatoes and gravy. And stuffing -- as far as I'm concerned once you've got the stuffing out you can throw away the bird (well, save the bones for soup).
But I'm with 5280 on this one. Turkey's almost always pretty terrible meat, and it's usually the worst food on the Thanksgiving table. Gimme more roasted Brussels sprouts (with onion and bacon), please. Creamed onions. Collard greens or Swiss chard with a little Sriracha sauce. Mashed potatoes and gravy. And stuffing -- as far as I'm concerned once you've got the stuffing out you can throw away the bird (well, save the bones for soup).
48
Just another reason she should be sitting at the kid's table.
Oh, and please pass the gravy. Thanks!
Oh, and please pass the gravy. Thanks!
49
This sort of Child-abuse happens BECAUSE Gays are allowed to marry! This was taught to her in a school with a Homo teacher. Oh how insidious is the Homosexual Agenda. Nothing and no one is safe. Some Homo teacher told her to pray for the abused and neglected Turkeys. And did you see the shock and disgust on the faces of the elderly!
50
Eat nothing. Touch nothing. Die and leave no trace. Only then will you be worthy of bathing in Mother Gaia's earthy menstrual juices.
51
@46 Sriracha at the Thanksgiving table?
The always mysterious and esoteric Fnarf Condiment Orthodoxy strikes again!
The always mysterious and esoteric Fnarf Condiment Orthodoxy strikes again!
52
@ Julie, you're correct regarding lizzie's initial posts, but the comment I'm addressing slips back toward the kind of statement that made her reputation.
She definitely has valid points to make, but hyperbole tends to undermine that.
And Fnarf's notorious palate makes another appearance... although I have to agree that brussels sprouts are awesome, and collards with Sriracha sounds intriguing for Thanksgiving. But he must be the victim of too many dried out Butterballs to have that opinion of turkey.
She definitely has valid points to make, but hyperbole tends to undermine that.
And Fnarf's notorious palate makes another appearance... although I have to agree that brussels sprouts are awesome, and collards with Sriracha sounds intriguing for Thanksgiving. But he must be the victim of too many dried out Butterballs to have that opinion of turkey.
53
This Thanksgiving the host will be cooking a turkey she raised herself. (no I won't tell peta where it is) Home raised are much better than Butterball or other mass production turkeys.
One more time. Veganism is nothing more than a dietary choice. Others are free to see it as more, but when it comes right down to it that is all it is, a dietary choice.
One more time. Veganism is nothing more than a dietary choice. Others are free to see it as more, but when it comes right down to it that is all it is, a dietary choice.
54
I should point out that Wild Turkey, raised in a vegan lifestyle, tastes a lot different than the turkey you get in the grocery store.
Personally, though, I like all the white meat, so if you want dark meat, you should go with turkey you hunt yourself.
Personally, though, I like all the white meat, so if you want dark meat, you should go with turkey you hunt yourself.
55
(steam the brussel sprouts with a mild sprinkling of herbs and a very light sauce of butter in a microwave, Fnarf, it actually is better than the stuff you make on a stove - you can also baste it lightly with the sauce from the turkey if you time it right)
56
I've yet to meet a food activist or PeTA member who's experienced poverty- or abuse-related hunger themselves.
I've also never met such an activist working as a cultural anthropologist with indigenous populations in the Arctic north.
I've also never met such an activist working as a cultural anthropologist with indigenous populations in the Arctic north.
58
There is a flock of wild turkeys that lives in the land adjacent to our house, and I definitely understand the timing of Thanksgiving because right now they look completely delicious. I idly been thinking that it would be kind of a fun challenge to figure out how to kill one (without a gun, we're in the city limits), prepare it, and cook it. There have been a few mornings where they've been hanging out in our (fenced) backyard, and I've let our dogs out, vaguely hoping one of them would bring home the turkey bacon, but no dice. Maybe next year we'll make it a project for Thanksgiving....
59
I like a few drops of Sriracha because the tradition Tabasco is too vinegary for me. Really -- just the tiniest hint of hot sauce (and just the tiniest hint of brown sugar) makes greens come alive. If you can taste the heat or the sugar, you've used to much (not that there's anything wrong with using too much).
In general, Sriracha is the closest thing to a universal condiment; it can be used anywhere ketchup can, plus anywhere any other hot sauce can. It can even be used in some mustard applications. If I was a religiously-inclined person my God would be the habanero pepper, but my Virgin of Guadalupe (the medium that connects God to the common people) would be Sriracha sauce.
Take my advice, though, and don't put it on your dick.
Will, I'm not sure what it was about my word "roasted" that made you think "on a stove", but I assure you, anything you prepare in a motherfucking MICROWAVE is inferior to mine.
In general, Sriracha is the closest thing to a universal condiment; it can be used anywhere ketchup can, plus anywhere any other hot sauce can. It can even be used in some mustard applications. If I was a religiously-inclined person my God would be the habanero pepper, but my Virgin of Guadalupe (the medium that connects God to the common people) would be Sriracha sauce.
Take my advice, though, and don't put it on your dick.
Will, I'm not sure what it was about my word "roasted" that made you think "on a stove", but I assure you, anything you prepare in a motherfucking MICROWAVE is inferior to mine.
60
@13 -- To PETA, eating meat is animal cruelty. And raising a turkey as a pet, regardless of what you do with it afterwards, is even worse in their eyes.
61
Wow - I'm getting a lot of anti-vegan vibes in these comments. I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian myself, but some of these arguments seem really personal and I'm actually going to defend them here (vegans, that is, not PETA, whom I disagree with). Everybody is entitled to their own diet, and I think we should all respect the diets of others. Just because we can make generalizations about the diet of our species as a whole does not mean we have to attack people who don't follow that same diet. Yes, most humans include meat in their diet, but some don't. I respect that - not because I think it's better or worse or anything for that matter. I simply respect that it exists.
I sometimes get the impression that when people attack vegans for what they eat, they carry with them certain assumptions about their character that may not necessarily be true. I have a vegan friend and I've never had a single argument with her; neither of us assume anything about the other person's character. I don't pretend to know enough about her reasons for being vegan to attack her and she, likewise, does not know enough about my dietary habits to attack me. We both recognize that the other person probably knows more than the other about their own personal reasons for doing what they do. Thus, it seems silly to argue them with her and likewise with me.
Anyway, that's my silly rant about people on the internet learning to play nicely.
I sometimes get the impression that when people attack vegans for what they eat, they carry with them certain assumptions about their character that may not necessarily be true. I have a vegan friend and I've never had a single argument with her; neither of us assume anything about the other person's character. I don't pretend to know enough about her reasons for being vegan to attack her and she, likewise, does not know enough about my dietary habits to attack me. We both recognize that the other person probably knows more than the other about their own personal reasons for doing what they do. Thus, it seems silly to argue them with her and likewise with me.
Anyway, that's my silly rant about people on the internet learning to play nicely.
63
Cheerio @61, by way of background, this isn't the first thread on this topic in the history of Slog. In fact, it gets trotted out on a fairly regular basis. Some of the arguments (and animosities) you're seeing here go back a long, long ways. That's why you're seeing personal attacks.
64
The worst advertising for veganism are SOME vegans. Most would not be so borish as to attempt to lecture others about dietary choices. It is the ones who try to guilt trip others that makes the reasonable vegans look silly. I think most are like one friend of mine who is vegan, but is married to an omnivoure. She would never dream of judging others over something a trivial as what they eat. It is the shallow ones who do judge others overs such minutiae that provoke hostile reactions.
65
I have a hard time believing this ad actually came from PETA. There's nary a naked woman in sight!
66
The only reason to roast brussel sprouts is to caramelize them, and that really is not as good as the method I mentioned, Fnarf.
Microwaves do have their uses - sometimes.
Microwaves do have their uses - sometimes.
68
Brussels sprouts. With an "s" at the end of "Brussel"
Not "Brussel sprouts"
And with that, this thread should die.
Not "Brussel sprouts"
And with that, this thread should die.
69
not before I put in my (late) 2 cents:
There really isn't a whole lot less cruelty involved with a organic, free-range turkey than there is with a conventional one. I eat plenty of animals, but it's with knowledge of the fact that cruelty was a factor. ALL animals raised for food are subject to cruel (even if not unusual) treatment: Its part of the business, which is why PETA hates it.
There really isn't a whole lot less cruelty involved with a organic, free-range turkey than there is with a conventional one. I eat plenty of animals, but it's with knowledge of the fact that cruelty was a factor. ALL animals raised for food are subject to cruel (even if not unusual) treatment: Its part of the business, which is why PETA hates it.
70
@64: I would agree with you, except 100% of the vegans I've met in my lifetime are your vegan bad apples.
I've met plenty of reasonable vegetarians in my life, but every vegan is on some kind of jihad. That's anecdotal, and probably I've only met a few dozen (or, more likely, the ones that weren't militant assholes I just never realized were vegan), but there it is.
Personally, I think the best thing a really fervent vegan can do for their cause is to get a degree in food science and invent faux-meat that doesn't taste like ass. People recycle a lot more when it's convienient; they'll eat meat less when it's convienient too. You can prosletyze that people should do X that makes the world a better place, but ultimately a person would accomplish a lot more by making what they think is right marginally easier for other people than by a lifetime of trying to convert others.
I've met plenty of reasonable vegetarians in my life, but every vegan is on some kind of jihad. That's anecdotal, and probably I've only met a few dozen (or, more likely, the ones that weren't militant assholes I just never realized were vegan), but there it is.
Personally, I think the best thing a really fervent vegan can do for their cause is to get a degree in food science and invent faux-meat that doesn't taste like ass. People recycle a lot more when it's convienient; they'll eat meat less when it's convienient too. You can prosletyze that people should do X that makes the world a better place, but ultimately a person would accomplish a lot more by making what they think is right marginally easier for other people than by a lifetime of trying to convert others.
71
I'm a vegan and I typically do not support PETA because of the confused messages they put out and their oppressive/exploitative ad campaigns etc...but I think this ad is hilarious. Plus, PETA usually create reactionary backlashes like the comments here.
I am vegan because I support animal equality and don't believe animals are "things"to exploit for food, clothing, entertainment, profit and more. There are many benefits to the environment and health, but again, it is a protest against animal exploitation, killing and cruelty. No one is free of hypocrisy or perfect, but veganism is avoiding animal exploitation as much as possible.
The level of ignorance of ethical veganism, the philosophy of veganism or even of awesome vegan products available shown in these comments is pretty pathetic. I also see on here that apparently a good little vegan is one that keeps quiet so as to not make anyone too uncomfortable with their choices, but fortunately some us speak up and have actual dialogues on the subject with our non-vegan friends, family and coworkers in a positive way for animals.
Maybe try reading a book or two on the subject sometime rather than judging all us simply on a stupid PETA ad.
I am vegan because I support animal equality and don't believe animals are "things"to exploit for food, clothing, entertainment, profit and more. There are many benefits to the environment and health, but again, it is a protest against animal exploitation, killing and cruelty. No one is free of hypocrisy or perfect, but veganism is avoiding animal exploitation as much as possible.
The level of ignorance of ethical veganism, the philosophy of veganism or even of awesome vegan products available shown in these comments is pretty pathetic. I also see on here that apparently a good little vegan is one that keeps quiet so as to not make anyone too uncomfortable with their choices, but fortunately some us speak up and have actual dialogues on the subject with our non-vegan friends, family and coworkers in a positive way for animals.
Maybe try reading a book or two on the subject sometime rather than judging all us simply on a stupid PETA ad.
72
With all the Hollywood stars in PETA, you'd think they could do something more creative than stealing their ideas from an old Bloom County strip.
73
#71 I am not opposed to vegans talking to me about their dietary choices. It is when they play the role of the food police that I object. If I go to a pot luck where omnivores are invited to bring a dish I should not have to put up with someone getting in my face about my dietary choice. (this happened to me) The fact that they are vegans does not excuse them from having good manners. For them to do that is just as rude as someone bringing a meat dish to a vegan or vegetarian pot luck. BTW the rude vegan was asked to stop his borish behavior and did not and is no longer invited to those events. The point here is that we do not have to be nice little omnivores and defer to intrusive vegans.
74
I think the only ethical thing to do in this case (photographed so very beautifully by the folks at PETA) is to kill and eat the kid. What a whiny little brat! Kill the future cheerleader, save Thanksgiving!
75
At least in this ad PETA isn't exploiting the sexuality of women like they usually do. Yes, let's save the animals, but have our own species run around naked/almost naked to promote it. Where are the naked men? Maybe there have been a few, but I can't think of any.
77
I'd respond to 71 and poke holes in his/her arguments, but I doubt that individual is the kind to reply back.
78
Thanksgiving is everyday for me, simply because I am grateful that I have
some food to eat - a salad of mixed raw vegetable and variety of beans and
nuts - I'm so glad I can have this food to eat. I don't want a beautiful
animal to be killed so I can eat it - am I weird==no, quite normal, in fact
very normal. You know why: I look after animals for near eighteen years and I
have never been sick - it's hard work at times to make sure the animals have
all they need and I often forget about myself, maybe that's why I don't get
sick.
some food to eat - a salad of mixed raw vegetable and variety of beans and
nuts - I'm so glad I can have this food to eat. I don't want a beautiful
animal to be killed so I can eat it - am I weird==no, quite normal, in fact
very normal. You know why: I look after animals for near eighteen years and I
have never been sick - it's hard work at times to make sure the animals have
all they need and I often forget about myself, maybe that's why I don't get
sick.
80
Considering it's a PETA ad, I'm just surprised it was a family and not a table full of naked women sitting there having dinner together for no conceivable reason.
81
Seriously though, why are all of you anti-vegans so defensive? Sure, some vegans are assholes but at this point the majority of stupid, sloganeering, overly judgemental arguments that concern meat eating are coming from the meat eaters. Just look at this thread, vegans and the vegan friendly have been putting forth some calm and logical points while the vegan haters have been spouting the same tired judgemental bullshit (ha ha tasty tasty murder!, vegans are always jerks! won't somebody think of the plants!)
In my experience obnoxious meat-eaters have by far outnumbered obnoxious vegans.
In my experience obnoxious meat-eaters have by far outnumbered obnoxious vegans.
82
Meat eaters are such dicks. Say anything against their cheap meats that are killing the environment and they get into a fucking tizzy. Christ.
83
Dedensive? What we are saying is that we refuse to be put on the defensive for our dietary choices.
86
God, the meat-eater shit storm makes me want to go vegan, where prior to reading this thread I was happily eating meat once a week. Keep it up, PETA are crazy assholes but the extreme meat eater response is just as obnoxious. Bonus points for the misogyny @3!
87
The tactic here is that some vegans think that just responding to them means they have omnivores on the defensive. So let me put this another way. Nobody anywhere under any circumstances has to answer to the food police vegans. We will just matter of factly eat what we choose.
Go omnivore!
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/issuepage…
Go omnivore!
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/issuepage…
88
@ 84 and others,
The problem with vegans isn't that they are wrong about things like the horrible treatment of animals in factory farms or the impact industrial husbandry has on the environment; the problem is that they propose an extreme and unnatural solution.
Veganism isn't natural. I'm sure you know the facts about the essential nutrients that can be found exclusively in animal-based foods, so I won't go over that. I'll just say that that proves that humans are meant to be omnivores, and it's our place in the natural order to eat certain prey animals, just as it's their natural place to be prey.
No, the solution to these problems of industrial husbandry is to CUT MEAT CONSUMPTION WAY BACK. Despite the nutritional benefits, no one should eat more than one meat serving a day, and can get by just nicely if it's less frequent than that. Dairy should be very limited too. Cut our demand, and then demand that meat come from humane sources, and you'll help end factory farming without taking the health risks of an unnatural lifestyle.
With regards to PETA's ad, getting a heritage turkey is, of course, a legitimate answer. But PETA is all about browbeating people into animal rights, damaging the cause as much as they advance it; thus, going vegan is their only offered solution. It's probably a B vitamin deficiency that causes such lapsed reason, but there you go.
The problem with vegans isn't that they are wrong about things like the horrible treatment of animals in factory farms or the impact industrial husbandry has on the environment; the problem is that they propose an extreme and unnatural solution.
Veganism isn't natural. I'm sure you know the facts about the essential nutrients that can be found exclusively in animal-based foods, so I won't go over that. I'll just say that that proves that humans are meant to be omnivores, and it's our place in the natural order to eat certain prey animals, just as it's their natural place to be prey.
No, the solution to these problems of industrial husbandry is to CUT MEAT CONSUMPTION WAY BACK. Despite the nutritional benefits, no one should eat more than one meat serving a day, and can get by just nicely if it's less frequent than that. Dairy should be very limited too. Cut our demand, and then demand that meat come from humane sources, and you'll help end factory farming without taking the health risks of an unnatural lifestyle.
With regards to PETA's ad, getting a heritage turkey is, of course, a legitimate answer. But PETA is all about browbeating people into animal rights, damaging the cause as much as they advance it; thus, going vegan is their only offered solution. It's probably a B vitamin deficiency that causes such lapsed reason, but there you go.
89
I have to agree with #81. I've yet to personally meet an obnoxious vegan. In fact, I never knew they were vegans or vegetarians until it was time to order out. They never made a big deal of it or tried to get me to eat meat. The only people who acted like asses were a few meat eaters that get super defensive about their diets for some strange reason. Gee, I eat meat too, but vegans have never bothered me. No one slams Jews for not eating pork or Hindus for not eating beef. Veganism is a personal decision--why is it considered game for criticism but not the dietary quirks of people of Judaism or Hinduism?
Really, the only vegans that act like jerks are the Peta folks on television, people I've yet to meat in my daily life.
Really, the only vegans that act like jerks are the Peta folks on television, people I've yet to meat in my daily life.
90
"Natural" 88? you're using a computer to claim that something is wrong because it isn't "natural"? What does natural even mean? Organisims evolve and we're lucky enough to be conscious of our evolution and to have the ability to direct it to a degree if we choose to. Should we just call it a day on evolving because anything new wouldn't be natural? Very little in our lives resembles the lives of humans at the dawn of our evolution and most of us wouldn't want it to. Claiming that something isn't right because it isn't natural is the argument people use when they have no logical reasons in support of their position.
91
@ 87 there's a world of difference between responding and being an defensive asshole and sorry but meat eaters do very often act like assholes towards vegans. I agree that eople have should have the right to decide what to comsume, as do most vegans, and personal level 'food police' should be told to fuck off, personally, at the time of the offense. The decision to eat meat does affect everyone though, and a discussion of the consequences of meat production and consumption is a conversation that we should be having as a society with the means to alternative forms of nutrition. Much like discussing alternatives to single occupancy petroleum burining cars as a primary mode of transportation.
Go ahead eat meat, it's your right, and I do hope that you're treated with civility and your rights are respected at all times (sorry 'bout the cheap shot @84) but don't expect people to pretend that there's no cruelty, pollution, or health consequences as a result of meat eating and animal husbandry.
Go ahead eat meat, it's your right, and I do hope that you're treated with civility and your rights are respected at all times (sorry 'bout the cheap shot @84) but don't expect people to pretend that there's no cruelty, pollution, or health consequences as a result of meat eating and animal husbandry.
92
I once got trapped in a conversation with a vegan christian. Either one is bad enough when they're in jihad mode, but try both. It made me want to build a shrine to satan out of pork chops.
93
@ 90, our nutritional needs cannot be entirely met through vegetarian eating. That clearly shows that we need to eat flesh. Clearly, the truly ethical choice is to become wise about where we get that flesh, and how humanely we treat the animals that provide it up to the time of slaughter. But there is absolutely, positively, nothing unethical about the actual killing and dressing animals for food.
It takes a lot of hubris to suggest that we can drive our evolution in a different direction if we want to. We don't really have any say there. But since you think we do, then riddle me this: What fate would you have befall all the cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, fish, and so on, if we were to all just stop eating them? Would you turn them loose? Would you put them in a preserve of some kind? What would happen to them then?
The world has a natural order, Rose. Everything is eaten by something else. Our place in that order is as predators. You can opt out and risk your health, but you couldn't be further from the truth when you defend your choice as ethical. You don't know what harm your choice brings to the animals you think are benefiting.
I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving. Sincerely.
It takes a lot of hubris to suggest that we can drive our evolution in a different direction if we want to. We don't really have any say there. But since you think we do, then riddle me this: What fate would you have befall all the cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, fish, and so on, if we were to all just stop eating them? Would you turn them loose? Would you put them in a preserve of some kind? What would happen to them then?
The world has a natural order, Rose. Everything is eaten by something else. Our place in that order is as predators. You can opt out and risk your health, but you couldn't be further from the truth when you defend your choice as ethical. You don't know what harm your choice brings to the animals you think are benefiting.
I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving. Sincerely.
94
Went to Thanksgiving dinner, and there happened to be a vegan there. (She had to wear a t-shirt proclaiming herself as such. Why are so many vegans so holier than thou, self-important/righteous?) The horrible, foul meal she ate was super-gross. People were meant to eat meat. Artificial protein supplements just don't cut it.
95
Matt...yes, our nutritional needs can be met through vegetarian eating- if not then why aren't vegetarians and vegans drpping dead from malnutrition? I know, what about B vitamins! right, luckily beer is loaded with B's and there's yeast in other things too and in a healthy gastrointestinal environment bacteria produce B vitamins. Sorry but meat eating carries more health risks than a vegetarian diet.
I never said that eating animals was ethical or not, and I don't think that in and of itself, I know how to hunt, rarely do, but I'm glad I know how and I talk about it with my friends and family that do at least yearly in the manner of 'hey did you have any luck this year?'.
There are obvious problems with the current state of animal husbandry that effect the planet and everyone on it (who is going to clean up all that shit?), and on a 'could you look into a cow's eyes and then analy electrocute it and then smash it's head in with a sludgehammer or run the robot that does?' there are some ethical questions. In addition, the methane, and carbon oxides emitted by meat animals are fucking up our atmosphere, the nitrogen deposits are fucking up our fresh water, and yes forests the world over are being clear-cut to make grazing land. Sure there's ethically raised meat but realistically how are we going to raise enough free range grass finished beef, pork, and ppoultry to feed the planet without cutting down every tree and using up all of the fresh water? I know that currently growing plant crops does cause carbon oxide emission but plants do emit oxygen and fix nitrogen. Do ethics count when it comes to driving a hummer but not when eating a hamburger?
As far as our evolution, yes we do have some say, I did say "direct it to a degree" not totally, random shit happens- that's life, but we do have an incredible amount of knowledge concerning chemistry, physics, genetics, medicine, biology, and astronomy. We do have choices, we may not recognize them but there are choices that could be made and we're not locked into a path that some god declared is the natural way to be, even if that is a comforting mode of thought. Someday the earth is going to end either because we fucked it up or the sun exploded, if we want to survive as a species we have to evolve on purpose to get off this planet. Msybe acknowledging and acting on the free agnecy posessed by the human race is hubris but we are going to die off eventually anyway so we may as well take responsibility for our actions. Your arguments concerning the "natural order" and the hubris of human self determination are reminiscent of christians fighting homosexuality and miscegination, something to think about?
Oh and thanks for bringing up the 'what happens to the animals?' strawman. I don't think that anyone really expects worldwide animal amnesty tomorrow where all husbandry animals are released into the wild. You yourself advocate cutting back on meat consumption, so perhaps you've considered the consequences. This line of thinking seems similar to asking 'well if everyone quit driving what would we do with all of the gas and SUVs?' r even worse 'if we ended slavey what would happen to all of the slaves? (yes that was a common pro slavery argument, and no I'm not comparing black americans to animals, I'm pointing out a consistent line of conservative thought).
A reasonable solution: cut consumption down gradually, then; pigs seem to have no problem reverting to wild boars within a generation or two, cows can interbreed with bison, wild turkeys...duh, I think that the salmon will be ok, I have no idea what wild chickens do but I'm curious to find out (have a feeling they join the ranks of rats, seagulls, and pigeons)
BTW I never said I was vegan or even a vegetarian, I'm just acknowledging some valid points made by vegans and pointing out that the same arguments used in defense of meat eating are the same arguments used in defense of racism, homophobia, and misogyny.
Fuck "our place" Matt, our place is what we make it, but really? again? really? vegans are harming animals? more than the people who run 'cowschwitz' (drive from San Francisco to LA, look to your left) vegans are harming animals more than michael farms?, hormel? how?
I really do think that it's a valid point of discussion and thank you for discussing it.
I did have a wonderful thanksgiving, I hope that you did too!
More...
I never said that eating animals was ethical or not, and I don't think that in and of itself, I know how to hunt, rarely do, but I'm glad I know how and I talk about it with my friends and family that do at least yearly in the manner of 'hey did you have any luck this year?'.
There are obvious problems with the current state of animal husbandry that effect the planet and everyone on it (who is going to clean up all that shit?), and on a 'could you look into a cow's eyes and then analy electrocute it and then smash it's head in with a sludgehammer or run the robot that does?' there are some ethical questions. In addition, the methane, and carbon oxides emitted by meat animals are fucking up our atmosphere, the nitrogen deposits are fucking up our fresh water, and yes forests the world over are being clear-cut to make grazing land. Sure there's ethically raised meat but realistically how are we going to raise enough free range grass finished beef, pork, and ppoultry to feed the planet without cutting down every tree and using up all of the fresh water? I know that currently growing plant crops does cause carbon oxide emission but plants do emit oxygen and fix nitrogen. Do ethics count when it comes to driving a hummer but not when eating a hamburger?
As far as our evolution, yes we do have some say, I did say "direct it to a degree" not totally, random shit happens- that's life, but we do have an incredible amount of knowledge concerning chemistry, physics, genetics, medicine, biology, and astronomy. We do have choices, we may not recognize them but there are choices that could be made and we're not locked into a path that some god declared is the natural way to be, even if that is a comforting mode of thought. Someday the earth is going to end either because we fucked it up or the sun exploded, if we want to survive as a species we have to evolve on purpose to get off this planet. Msybe acknowledging and acting on the free agnecy posessed by the human race is hubris but we are going to die off eventually anyway so we may as well take responsibility for our actions. Your arguments concerning the "natural order" and the hubris of human self determination are reminiscent of christians fighting homosexuality and miscegination, something to think about?
Oh and thanks for bringing up the 'what happens to the animals?' strawman. I don't think that anyone really expects worldwide animal amnesty tomorrow where all husbandry animals are released into the wild. You yourself advocate cutting back on meat consumption, so perhaps you've considered the consequences. This line of thinking seems similar to asking 'well if everyone quit driving what would we do with all of the gas and SUVs?' r even worse 'if we ended slavey what would happen to all of the slaves? (yes that was a common pro slavery argument, and no I'm not comparing black americans to animals, I'm pointing out a consistent line of conservative thought).
A reasonable solution: cut consumption down gradually, then; pigs seem to have no problem reverting to wild boars within a generation or two, cows can interbreed with bison, wild turkeys...duh, I think that the salmon will be ok, I have no idea what wild chickens do but I'm curious to find out (have a feeling they join the ranks of rats, seagulls, and pigeons)
BTW I never said I was vegan or even a vegetarian, I'm just acknowledging some valid points made by vegans and pointing out that the same arguments used in defense of meat eating are the same arguments used in defense of racism, homophobia, and misogyny.
Fuck "our place" Matt, our place is what we make it, but really? again? really? vegans are harming animals? more than the people who run 'cowschwitz' (drive from San Francisco to LA, look to your left) vegans are harming animals more than michael farms?, hormel? how?
I really do think that it's a valid point of discussion and thank you for discussing it.
I did have a wonderful thanksgiving, I hope that you did too!
96
People can eat only dirt & moss for all I care.
As for PETA, well, a man wiser than me once said, "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused." PETA seems eternally mired in the late 60's New Left mode of thinking & action, long after all the other worthwhile lefty groups from the 60's have wised up and left this shit behind. Their reliance on "street theater" and loud, annoying civil disobedience is very counterproductive, and they've become the clowns of the left (at least they're not scary clowns like the clowns of the right). Look right here, even the uber-lefties of SLOG consider PETA a joke. And what makes it really sad is that they don't even realize this; watching a PETA protest is like watching a really bad talent show performance, you almost feel kinda sorry for the person amidst the snickering.
As for PETA, well, a man wiser than me once said, "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused." PETA seems eternally mired in the late 60's New Left mode of thinking & action, long after all the other worthwhile lefty groups from the 60's have wised up and left this shit behind. Their reliance on "street theater" and loud, annoying civil disobedience is very counterproductive, and they've become the clowns of the left (at least they're not scary clowns like the clowns of the right). Look right here, even the uber-lefties of SLOG consider PETA a joke. And what makes it really sad is that they don't even realize this; watching a PETA protest is like watching a really bad talent show performance, you almost feel kinda sorry for the person amidst the snickering.
97
Yikes! so amny tpyos (sorry again 83) hey 92 your shrine sounds awesome. On fire with heavy metal playing? Post it on the net?
98
Radical activities that create dissonance around a subject get people thinking and talking about it. That's kind of the point. Most PETA folks understand that a position of blissful ignorance about where our food comes from doesn't withstand scrutiny. For the most part, PETA is on the right side of history, and a lot of good has come out of their shenanigans (http://www.peta.org/about/victories.asp).
Of course, it's not crucial that you're on the right side of history--making a ruckus still helps things progress. Remember how Karl Rove decided to make banning gay marriage a campaign issue? Without that little stunt and the ensuing nationwide debate, we'd still have several more years to wait for a chance to vote on R-71.
Of course, it's not crucial that you're on the right side of history--making a ruckus still helps things progress. Remember how Karl Rove decided to make banning gay marriage a campaign issue? Without that little stunt and the ensuing nationwide debate, we'd still have several more years to wait for a chance to vote on R-71.
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