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News & ArtsThursday, November 19, 2009
Sex All The Best Men Are Taken
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:25 PM
"I think your response to No Figuring Women this week was dead on," writes Slog tipper Jim. "But some recent research by Melissa Burkley of Oklahoma State University in Stillwater may suggest something else is at play."
A new study provides evidence for what many have long suspected: that single women are much keener on pursuing a man who's already taken than a singleton.... They asked 184 heterosexual students at the university to participate in a study on sexual attraction and told the volunteers that a computer program would match them with an ideal partner. Half the participants were single and half attached, with equal numbers of men and women in each group. Unknown to the participants, everyone was offered a fictitious candidate partner who had been tailored to match their interests exactly. The photograph of "Mr Right" was the same for all women participants, as was that of the ideal women presented to the men. Half the participants were told their ideal mate was single, and the other half that he or she was already in a romantic relationship."Everything was the same across all participants, except whether their ideal mate was already attached or not," says Burkley.
The most striking result was in the responses of single women. Offered a single man, 59 per cent were interested in pursuing a relationship. But when he was attached, 90 per cent said they were up for the chase.
The researcher theorizes that women are more attracted to attached guys because their current girlfriends—the fact that they have girlfriends at all—essentially "vouches for" the guy. He's relationship material. The fact that he's in a relationship proves it and women want guys who are relationship material... even if they have to destroy a guy's current relationship to get him.
Women are eeeeeeeevil.
2
Wow. 184 college students. That's a perfect sampling of the female population.
Next up: ALL WOMEN DRESS SLUTTY FOR ATTENTION AND BINGE DRINK AT BARS. based on a study of 184 girls at University of Colorado.
Next up: ALL WOMEN DRESS SLUTTY FOR ATTENTION AND BINGE DRINK AT BARS. based on a study of 184 girls at University of Colorado.
5
Hmph. Before I got married, by soon-to-be-wife asked me if I was planning on wearing a wedding ring. I said "hell yes, married guys get all the hot women!"
She was not amused.
She was not amused.
6
Of course, this doesn't explain Seattle's little problem:
So many ugly womyn! Seriously, haven't seen this many mingers in any of the 10 cities I've lived in. You can go a week here and not see a fuckable woman, especially here on the Northside.
So many ugly womyn! Seriously, haven't seen this many mingers in any of the 10 cities I've lived in. You can go a week here and not see a fuckable woman, especially here on the Northside.
8
If only they had 184! There were 184 participants and only half were women. 92 women total, so 46 were told Mr. Right was single, 46 were told he was attached. So the 90% leading to the "conclusion" were the reactions of 46 college-age women.
rolling my eyes at the "study", not Dan. I trust he's kidding. I may be eeeeevil, but I don't represent all women. ;-)
rolling my eyes at the "study", not Dan. I trust he's kidding. I may be eeeeevil, but I don't represent all women. ;-)
9
I'm with @2, 184 women of any age is hardly representative of a majority of women and even less so when we find out that they are all probably in their late teens early 20's. The sample would need to be MUCH larger to take the data seriously.
That being said, this female contingent most certainly exists in all of their annoying glory. The funny thing is, the joke is on these women. The men who would actually leave their current partner (assuming the relationship is a happy loving one) for a chick like this is clearly a total d-bag and not someone you would want to be in a relationship with anyway. It shows that he isn't actually relationship material at all, or at most he's really shitty relationship material and they are likely to be the dumpee soon enough.
That being said, this female contingent most certainly exists in all of their annoying glory. The funny thing is, the joke is on these women. The men who would actually leave their current partner (assuming the relationship is a happy loving one) for a chick like this is clearly a total d-bag and not someone you would want to be in a relationship with anyway. It shows that he isn't actually relationship material at all, or at most he's really shitty relationship material and they are likely to be the dumpee soon enough.
10
look, women are what women are and men are what men are; we should celebrate, honor and respect the innate nature of both sexes; as to what that nature is, well, I suspect many of us will look to our own experience, plus studies and cultural knowledge, and some of what we believe will be right, and some wrong.
I find nothing objectionable in a gender's feeling that "being relationship material" is a prime attribute. I find nothing objectionable in a gender's feeling that "being hot" is a prime attribute.
What is objectionable is any position suggesting one's own gender is innately superior to the other gender.
Now THAT makes my TESTOSTERONE BOIL and so I shall go start a war somewhere!
I find nothing objectionable in a gender's feeling that "being relationship material" is a prime attribute. I find nothing objectionable in a gender's feeling that "being hot" is a prime attribute.
What is objectionable is any position suggesting one's own gender is innately superior to the other gender.
Now THAT makes my TESTOSTERONE BOIL and so I shall go start a war somewhere!
11
@2
Fucking hilarious and spot on! Immature college girls represent ALL women. That really is priceless.
Just shows you really can make a study "prove" anything you want, if you set it up the right way.
Fucking hilarious and spot on! Immature college girls represent ALL women. That really is priceless.
Just shows you really can make a study "prove" anything you want, if you set it up the right way.
12
@9 - That is sort of a brilliant irony on this sort of person. A man gives off the illusion of desirability by being in a relationship—and by proxy I guess allegedly stable, dependable, and unavailable; his worth has been quantified by a mate—yet your only shot at this man is that he is none of those things.
13
@2,
Exactly correct. This has always been one of my biggest beefs with psychology research... almost ALL of it is done with college students (basically because they're cheap and available).
It's one of the main reasons I'm leaving that field... because it's BS.
Exactly correct. This has always been one of my biggest beefs with psychology research... almost ALL of it is done with college students (basically because they're cheap and available).
It's one of the main reasons I'm leaving that field... because it's BS.
15
Well, 20-year old women may not represent all women, but the results are striking, no? 90%? That's a statistically powerful percentage. Even if it doesn't "mean" anything about the rest of you, it might have an effect ... anyone 20 or older has been 20 years old at some point, no?
L2science, folks. Studies get run with samples of much less than that and are taken quite seriously. That's a pretty large effect.
L2science, folks. Studies get run with samples of much less than that and are taken quite seriously. That's a pretty large effect.
16
Well, I'm no college student and I see this dynamic all the time. You tell your friends you're dating someone new, and they all want to know: Why has he never been married? Why wasn't he already in a relationship? As if the best identifier of being good relationship material is already BEING in a relationship.
18
I pray to the gods of science that someday the study of psychology will evolve into a rigorous scientific enterprise. Today it is polluted with far too many poorly designed "studies" of dubious merit.
Here's Melissa Burkley's statement from her OSI "Professional Profile:"
"My research interests center around the issues of stereotypes, stigma, and group processes. I currently pursue this interest with two main lines of research. The first examines why stigmatized individuals embrace negative stereotypes regarding their own group. The second is concerned with the development of a new measure of implicit prejudice."
Sheesh!
Here's Melissa Burkley's statement from her OSI "Professional Profile:"
"My research interests center around the issues of stereotypes, stigma, and group processes. I currently pursue this interest with two main lines of research. The first examines why stigmatized individuals embrace negative stereotypes regarding their own group. The second is concerned with the development of a new measure of implicit prejudice."
Sheesh!
19
I have never wanted to pursue a guy who was already taken, but yeah--you want to know that they have had some relationship successes in their past. Any guy past a certain age who hasn't had some sort of LTR is probably not a guy I'd want to date--I don't want to do the breaking in. Of course, I'm old and tired.
20
@15 Yeah, I was 20 once and I was ignorant, naive, and stupid as fuck. What's your point?
This kind of research does nothing but further sexist stereotypes and gender roles. Like that recent "study" that found showing 40% of your skin is the perfect amount to attract a man. THANKS SCIENCE.
This kind of research does nothing but further sexist stereotypes and gender roles. Like that recent "study" that found showing 40% of your skin is the perfect amount to attract a man. THANKS SCIENCE.
21
I thought this shit was common knowledge, and I can vouch for this phenomenon from another angle: after a long dry spell, I began my current romance some 8 years ago. Almost immediately after, a pattern emerged of women I'd known for ages hitting on me. No change in me, per se, but suddenly I'm prime material for everything from one night stands to drop her and let's go steady? I hadn't lost weight, changed my "style" or done anything except find the Best Girlfriend Ever, and suddenly I'm sought after by women who should know better.
Of course, this is not a scientific sample. But it works for me.
Of course, this is not a scientific sample. But it works for me.
22
I don't trust the wording of "interested in pursuing a relationship." If I were told someone met all my ideal requirements and was attached, I might very well say he interested me. That doesn't mean I'm saying I would actively pursue him in the face of a preexisting relationship.
23
it may not represent all women, but college aged women are the broads you gotta watch out for. do you really think your bored husband is going to go after someone his own age? no. he's going to go for the slutty college girls at the local bar and the second they see his wedding ring, it's on.
24
i think this works in the other direction too- as a woman, men hit on me much more often when i'm already dating someone else. Sort of a gotta spend money to make money thing- you've got to be already having sex for people to want to have sex with you.
25
Did anyone else hear the study of online daters mentioned on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me..." this week that said women found men more attractive when they mentioned hobbies such as football, surfing, and whitewater rafting, while men found women more attractive when they mentioned hobbies such as yoga, cooking, and pole dancing?
So basically, men like women whose hobbies serve to benefit men? Who's evil now?
So basically, men like women whose hobbies serve to benefit men? Who's evil now?
28
I demand an appropriate study size of more than 512 ...
they can all be slutty college women if need be.
they can all be slutty college women if need be.
29
@11 - It was Homer Simpson who said, "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true. Facts, schmacts."
@12 - So the advice we should be giving single people who want/need to get laid is:
1) find a "teammate" who is an equally hapless member of the desirable sex
2) pretend you're in a relationship
3) "cheat" like crazy
@12 - So the advice we should be giving single people who want/need to get laid is:
1) find a "teammate" who is an equally hapless member of the desirable sex
2) pretend you're in a relationship
3) "cheat" like crazy
30
Sometimes it works in reverse. I had a guy that was only interested in me when I was seeing someone else. People are weird.
31
This attitude bothers me, that a man who hasn't gotten married by some arbitrary age must have something wrong with him. What about the converse? Does a woman who hasn't gotten married at some point have something "wrong" with her? I also don't think I've ever heard this sentiment from anyone other than single 30-something women.
Why has he never been married? Why wasn't he already in a relationship?
This attitude bothers me, that a man who hasn't gotten married by some arbitrary age must have something wrong with him. What about the converse? Does a woman who hasn't gotten married at some point have something "wrong" with her? I also don't think I've ever heard this sentiment from anyone other than single 30-something women.
32
@24 I agree. I think it's because, for both sides, pursuing someone in a relationship is "safe." For one, you know they are desirable because they have a mate, and two, they aren't a threat if it does or doesn't work out. They're already in a commitment.
33
@31 Are you serious? I'm 28 and am bugged all the fucking time for not being married or having kids. When are you gonna get married, kersy? You're next in line for kids! How's that biological clock? Time's a tickin! Career? You don't have time to think of that! You're already 28! Babies! Don't wait too long and become an old dried up maid! Oh and to top it off, let me bombard you with wedding industry bullshit.
For men, the "wrong" they're trying to figure out is why he's single and undesirable. For women, it's why she's not fulfilling her gender expectations.
For men, the "wrong" they're trying to figure out is why he's single and undesirable. For women, it's why she's not fulfilling her gender expectations.
34
@21, I'd always ascribed that phenomenon to another explanation. When you're in a relationship, you're more likely to be fulfilled, positive, happy and confident. You don't come across so much as needy or desperate. Also, when you hang out with people of whatever gender you're into, a lot of the potential tension that might have been there otherwise is gone, and so the intercourse is so much more relaxed and natural. Relaxed and natural = attractive.
36
So, I guess the bottom line here is that if a single man wants to get into a relationship with a single woman he should just lie and say he's already in one.
Yeah, that sounds like a good way to start things off...
Yeah, that sounds like a good way to start things off...
38
Funny, I don't remember anyone complaining about sample sizes and such when Dan posted about men being more likely to leave their cancer-stricken spouses. Of course trying to make generalizations from either "study" about the innate differences between the sexes would be incredibly foolish.
39
It is often disappointing when the media reports on studies like this, because they so frequently overstate the known facts to make it fit into the story they're trying to tell. On the other hand, they're not alone in this desire to make the facts fit their own narrative; To those dismissing the implications raised by this study out of hand for small sampling size or limited age range of participants, it's worth remembering that in the parlance of science that doesn't mean "ignore this study and keep on believing the exact opposite." It means "further study is required to draw definitive conclusions."
40
What seems to have been lost on every commenter here is: He IS married (and hence, "vetted")! The potential affair is only aborted when the woman finds out he's not breaking any rules.
Which leads me back to:
1) Dan's original speculation that it's about the ego-boost associated with cheating on his wife.
2) She either wanted an "intimacy obstacle" so that the guy didn't get too attached.
Which leads me back to:
1) Dan's original speculation that it's about the ego-boost associated with cheating on his wife.
2) She either wanted an "intimacy obstacle" so that the guy didn't get too attached.
41
Fucking LAME and assbackwards. I've always considered taken women off-limits, no matter what. I must be an idiot or something?
42
" this works in the other direction too- as a woman"
yeah except for one minor difference; most white women go to hell in a hand basket by the time they hit 40. Marrying Asian women usually saves u that horror.
yeah except for one minor difference; most white women go to hell in a hand basket by the time they hit 40. Marrying Asian women usually saves u that horror.
43
Dan
I believe it. I know of three good female friends and all three had affairs with married men. In addition, I recall a party with my girlfriend and another woman openly flirted with me. My gal was not amused. On the other hand, I find when I'm freely available or unattached I don't get as many dates. It's a weird phenomenon.
I believe it. I know of three good female friends and all three had affairs with married men. In addition, I recall a party with my girlfriend and another woman openly flirted with me. My gal was not amused. On the other hand, I find when I'm freely available or unattached I don't get as many dates. It's a weird phenomenon.
45
@37:
That's a strange phenomenon. I wear a silver Celtic braid ring on "that finger" and even women who've known me for years have come up to me and said, "I didn't know you were married!", as if that's the ONLY reason someone would wear a ring on their left-hand ring finger. (FWIW, I wear three, but that's the only finger that particular ring fits on - AND I figured, naively perhaps, it was the most un-wedding-ring like ring of the bunch).
That's a strange phenomenon. I wear a silver Celtic braid ring on "that finger" and even women who've known me for years have come up to me and said, "I didn't know you were married!", as if that's the ONLY reason someone would wear a ring on their left-hand ring finger. (FWIW, I wear three, but that's the only finger that particular ring fits on - AND I figured, naively perhaps, it was the most un-wedding-ring like ring of the bunch).
47
@13: It's true, but think of it... we know more about the psychology of college students than any civilization that has existed upon the Earth!
48
I've asked it many times, and I'll ask it again ... how is heterosexuality even possible? This study confirms nothing that most men didn't already know.
And to all those women who now give me those eyes in the supermarket: where the fuck were all of you the years before I met my wife?
And to all those women who now give me those eyes in the supermarket: where the fuck were all of you the years before I met my wife?
49
Taken or into men, either way, real men are just nowhere to be found for those ladies unfortunate enough to find themselves in the dating scene today.
That however shouldn't mean that pity should be had with homewreckers. I know that if you conduct yourself as a lady and use your God given attributes and feminine qualities along with what's more important: KNOWING where to go, you will be able to find a real man who seeks to form a family. But that's the key. If you go looking in the wrong places as most women go on searching these days all you will find are players or sex addicted sickos wanting to bed you on the first date or effeminate men wanting to be your girlfriend instead of your boyfriend. Look in the right places ladies and you shall find them.
That however shouldn't mean that pity should be had with homewreckers. I know that if you conduct yourself as a lady and use your God given attributes and feminine qualities along with what's more important: KNOWING where to go, you will be able to find a real man who seeks to form a family. But that's the key. If you go looking in the wrong places as most women go on searching these days all you will find are players or sex addicted sickos wanting to bed you on the first date or effeminate men wanting to be your girlfriend instead of your boyfriend. Look in the right places ladies and you shall find them.
50
Hmm... Well, a dating history is a good indication that a guy is not a total dick. Maybe women are just naturally blessed with logic.
I guess it crosses a line when you intend to break a relationship in order to gain one yourself. Kinda like kings playing at war... But hey, I'd rather have England than a desert. ;-)
I guess it crosses a line when you intend to break a relationship in order to gain one yourself. Kinda like kings playing at war... But hey, I'd rather have England than a desert. ;-)
51
@20 - My point is that naive ignorant stupid fucks have an impact on who gets laid and who doesn't, and that can have social consequences down the road.
The interesting question is WHY IS [THE RESULT] TRUE? Don't ignore it because "it doesn't represent me".
The interesting question is WHY IS [THE RESULT] TRUE? Don't ignore it because "it doesn't represent me".
53
Given your stated track record of squeezing out the young 'uns out-of-wedlock LC, I guess you'd be the expert on "looking in the wrong places" now, wouldn't you?
57
Look: whenever a woman sees another woman with something, she'll always go: 'Oooh, I want that, too' and 'I wonder how that will fit me'. It's not because she really wants or needs it; it's a matter of 'I gotta have whatever everybody else has'. It's competition (women are WAY MORE competitive than men) and external validation of self-worth (sorry, girlfriends: deep down you are shallow). That goes for a pair of jeans, an eclair, a puppy, a man, or a career. It just boils down to 'I bet I can wear it better than her'.
Men, on the other hand, tend to see things as objects and possessions. Furthermore, they think once they have something, they own it forever. If a woman is taken, well--unless you really, really, really, really, really, really want it--let's put it this way: would you just go and rob somebody? (Of course, I'm not saying this doesn't happen--testosterone doesn't just make Arab American men wear strong musky cologne.)
And there you have it.
Men, on the other hand, tend to see things as objects and possessions. Furthermore, they think once they have something, they own it forever. If a woman is taken, well--unless you really, really, really, really, really, really want it--let's put it this way: would you just go and rob somebody? (Of course, I'm not saying this doesn't happen--testosterone doesn't just make Arab American men wear strong musky cologne.)
And there you have it.
58
@34: Interesting idea. I agree with you too, though it doesn't apply to this study, since none of the women interacted with "Mr. Right" but only saw a photo of him.
@9: Spot on. It's idiot logic. Of course, being married doesn't mean you're a good mate either -- it might mean you were both terrified of being alone, somebody got knocked up, etc. People get married for all kinds of reasons, and not always the right ones. People marry bitches and assholes all the time too, because they're morons.
@9: Spot on. It's idiot logic. Of course, being married doesn't mean you're a good mate either -- it might mean you were both terrified of being alone, somebody got knocked up, etc. People get married for all kinds of reasons, and not always the right ones. People marry bitches and assholes all the time too, because they're morons.
59
Oh fer crying out loud, it's called Mate Poaching, and you can see it across all species of creatures. There's a lot of research in the field on birds, especially.
Not evil. Hard-wired to confer evolutionary advantage.
Not evil. Hard-wired to confer evolutionary advantage.
60
I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind the "oh, of course college-aged women want to bust up relationships" sentiment, but I think that the sample set does have another significance. Being "attached" probably doesn't carry the same meaning for a person in their late teens/early 20s that it might for someone older. That is to say, a college-aged girl likely doesn't read "attached" as married for 10 years with 2 kids.
61
1. A lot of you haters don't seem to understand experimental social science. I haven't read the study, b/c it's behind a wall, but usually subjects are randomly assigned to a control or experimental group. The point is: with two identical groups of women (b/c they are randomly selected to be in one group or another) by only changing the relationship status you increase the percent of women who would pursue a relationship with the target by 30 percentage points! Or, another way, about 50% more women were interested in pursuing a relationship. With that sample size that's pretty significant.
2. There are always generalization problems. Most of the criticism in the comments are that they are young women, suggesting that for older women the effect would be smaller. Maybe, it would be interesting to see. Is there any reason why we might think that the effect would be smaller for older women? @60, that is a good point.
3. I'm a straight guy, 25, never been in a LTR or really dated. Does that mean I'm automatically not dateable?
2. There are always generalization problems. Most of the criticism in the comments are that they are young women, suggesting that for older women the effect would be smaller. Maybe, it would be interesting to see. Is there any reason why we might think that the effect would be smaller for older women? @60, that is a good point.
3. I'm a straight guy, 25, never been in a LTR or really dated. Does that mean I'm automatically not dateable?
64
In my mind there are four major things going on here from the women's perspectives, when this does happen. One is the thrill of the forbidden -- and the fact that it must be kept closeted (unlike, say, an interracial or same-sex relationship... it's not 'nice' to the other person to keep those secret). Two is that there's a certain very masculine stereotype of the husband/inseminator/father/provider role, and this is a turn-on for many women. Three is that, well, women are commitment-phobes too. Flirting with a guy who is taken (or gay, which happens a lot in fag-hag relationships) is a way to be sexy without that fear of socially "having" to date them and settle down. Four, there's a (silly) presumption that the married guy is faithful and that he's probably been 'abandoned' by his wife. Essentially, he's now owned by the new secret and forbidden girlfriend who has the power to throw him back any time she is finished playing with him. And if she decides instead that she wants him, well, he's relationship material and he must really really love her, right? Not sure how the sadistic girlfriend-dominating-wife aspect of it plays into things for most women, but I'm sure it plays a part for some as well. Why expect women to be different than men in that respect?
In short, this is the perfect confluence of romance-novel/soap-opera drama and human nature. It's the 'love that can never be,' the holy grail of female pulp-fiction romances.
In short, this is the perfect confluence of romance-novel/soap-opera drama and human nature. It's the 'love that can never be,' the holy grail of female pulp-fiction romances.
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